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#rockbox log for 2002-10-27

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10:58:02henrysunseti gues noone saw my link from yesterday so i'll repost it.... - this is a overview of a new ui organization for rockbox... lmk what ya think
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11:04:29NorrinHello all, has anyone messed with the new Archos FM Recorder?
11:10:26NorrinDoes anyone know a website available to upgrade the HD in the new Archos FM Recorder?
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15:22:29Moofhas anyone seen this error on a Recorder 20?: "Read access error! Can't read from hard drive" just at boot
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18:03:26ironihello ppl
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18:19:53langhaarrockerI hate cvs conflicts!
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19:10:27langhaarrockerIs it possible to update a patch on the patch tracker?
19:12:36langhaarrockerAnybody awake at all?
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20:02:48 Join Artine [0] (
20:05:02ArtineHey, I'm wondering if anyone can help me a bit? I'm trying to get the UI Simulator built, and I've gotten the latest source from CVS, but whenever I try to build, I get errors pertaining to files not existing.
20:05:26langhaarrockerWhat are you trying to build it with?
20:06:03langhaarrockerunix? cygwin?
20:06:09ArtineFirst time around, I was using the tools that came with Cygwin, but it seems not to have anything for building win32 executables, so then I tried the mingw tools.
20:06:32Artine(I had to change CC and WINDREP, of course)
20:06:43langhaarrockerOn windows the only way to build the ui simulater seems to be Visual C++
20:07:33ArtineIIRC, I tried that a few weeks ago and got similar errors: something like lang.c or lang.h didn't exist or something odd like that. But I'll try again.
20:08:22langhaarrockerIt might be that these files have to be build separately.
20:08:30*langhaarrocker trying
20:08:46ArtineHmm? So wait, I need to build something else before the uisimulator?
20:09:02ArtineOut of curiosity, are there binaries for the UISimulator available, 'cuz if this doesn't end up working, that'd save a good deal of time :-)
20:09:07langhaarrockerlang.c is generated by a pearl script.
20:09:31ArtineGrr.. So I still gotta use Cygwin somehow. I guess I need to build it without the simulator in Cygwin, then use VC++ for the UISim?
20:09:35langhaarrockerYou may have to run tools/make before
20:09:51ArtineThanks tons for the advice, I'm gonna go see what I can figure out :-D
20:19:50langhaarrockerI just managed to build a uisim using VC++ from the cygwin shell
20:20:21ArtineHmm.... Showoff :-) I'm still trying to get it work. But how did you use VC++ from Cygwin???
20:21:48langhaarrockerI just had to call the VCVARS32.BAT in the bin dir of VC++ and then used nmake in uisim/win32
20:22:36langhaarrockerThat way the makefile could find perl...
20:25:05ArtineHmm... Gotta give that a try :-)
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20:28:21ArtineHow very odd.... BUTTON_MENU seems to be undeclared. (As does, I assume, BUTTON_STOP, BUTTON_*.) I suppose I could enum { BUTTON_WHATEVER}; but it seems that that's already there. I think I must not have a clue what I'm doing :-)
20:28:58langhaarrockerBUTTON_MENU is on the player only.
20:29:49langhaarrockerIt's declared in firmware/drivers/button.h
20:29:51ArtineAh, so it's something like #ifdef PLAYER ... BUTTON_MENU ... #endif? Something seems very screwy about this.
20:30:56*Artine investigates these problems more deeply and becomes skeptical of this computer's installation of cygwin and vc++, etc..
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20:31:34langhaarrockerare you uisimming the recorder?
20:32:48ArtineThat's my intention. But what I'm /actually/ doing at the moment is anyone's guess :-)
20:34:03langhaarrockerI'd call it "Artine in rockboxland"
20:34:16*Artine laughs
20:34:23*Artine remains confuzzled
20:34:50*Artine has a theory, and tests it :-)
20:35:38ArtineHmm... Nmake is giving errors in macro invocations. I doubt that it has a clue what it's talking about.
20:35:57ArtineNo, it definitely doesn't. The macro seems to be defined just right...
20:36:52 Nick seb-away is now known as _seb_ (
20:40:12henrysunsetanyone read that doc i posted as to reorganizing the rockbox menus??
20:41:00henrysunseti put some thought inot how to make the box work better in cases liek when you are driving and have to memorize the ui
20:42:04ArtineDid you send it to the mailing list?
20:42:36langhaarrockerhenrysunset: I remember having forgotten that I read something about that.
20:45:31langhaarrockerWas that a feature request?
20:46:53henrysunseti'm not on the mailing list or nothing
20:46:56henrysunsetheres a link
20:47:01langhaarrockerI don't find your note any more.
20:47:27henrysunsettell me what u think
20:47:47langhaarrockerI've never been on that site.
20:47:56henrysunsetit's sorta more than just a bug report so i wrote a preliminary doc as to how i'd like to reorganize the box
20:48:12henrysunsetthat is all
20:53:05*langhaarrocker still reading
20:53:05langhaarrockerDo I understand this right that you can't change the volume via the f1 overlay without using two buttons simultaniously?
20:54:10henrysunsetyou would have to use 2 buttons @ once if you were in a view besides the player view
20:54:37*langhaarrocker should read about the player view.
20:54:38henrysunsetyou could always switch to the player view then press up/down
20:55:33henrysunsetso you have options... hold f1 then press up/down to change volume without leaving your current place in the ui; or go onto the player view and use up/down as usual
20:56:01henrysunseti need to explain stuff better; but i'm trying to see if i'm making any sense to begin with
20:56:36langhaarrockerHow will we access more overlay menus than there are fx buttons?
20:56:51langhaarrockerI see
20:57:15henrysunsetfiggured it out?
20:57:49henrysunsetthere would be 4 overlay menus... one for f1,f2,f3, and on
20:58:12henrysunsetf1 overlays are quick ways to do player tasks
20:58:20henrysunsetf2 are quick ways to do playlist tasks
20:58:29henrysunsetf3 is quick ways to do explorer tasks
20:58:41langhaarrockerFor additional things we'd have to go to the root of the global hierarchy?
20:58:45henrysunsetand since on is the main menu; the on quickmenu would be where the options live
20:58:53henrysunsetyou go t it
20:59:35henrysunsetpossibly the user could customize which items they want for f1-f3 but i think these are the best 3.
21:00:41langhaarrockerProblem: Assume we're in playlist overlay. User hits f1 -> we're in player overlay. User hits f3 -> we're in explorer overlay.
21:00:43langhaarrockerNow the user somehow exits the overlay. Where will he return to?
21:00:49ArtineHmmm... I just gave it a read, and I think it would help tremendously.
21:01:09henrysunsetthx artine
21:01:22henrysunsetlaugh: the overlays don't cover the whole screen
21:01:38henrysunsetthe user overlay just goes away when yer done using it
21:02:08henrysunsetso you don't change location in the ui when using overlays
21:02:26henrysunsetyou are just temporarily in the overlay
21:03:10langhaarrockerSo you can't directly change form the first overlay to another without leaving the first overlay?
21:03:29henrysunseti don't know that that would make any sense; no?
21:03:44henrysunsetoverlays are inherenty quick tasks
21:03:51henrysunsetyou do them and return to reality
21:04:57henrysunseti'll add some sketches and this will mke more sense i think
21:05:28ArtineIt's just a quick little reminder, right? Think of how you get a quick little window when you Alt-Tab in KDE and GNOME and Windows, its there while you make your decision and as soon as you let go its gone. Am I right?
21:06:08henrysunsetgood analogy
21:06:17henrysunsetif u released alt and tab the popup goes away
21:06:48henrysunsetthere would be some populs that you are required to answer though
21:07:25ArtineFor example...?
21:07:26henrysunsetlike when hitting enter on a folder in the tree; you have to make a decision if you want to add the contents of that folder recursively o not to the playlist
21:07:50henrysunsetbut it's an important question; and a situation we can't do at all now
21:07:58henrysunsetso i think its worth it
21:08:00langhaarrockerTo me that seems to make the overlays only usable two handed.
21:08:10henrysunsettry it
21:08:13henrysunsetit isnt that hard
21:08:17henrysunsetuse 2 fingers
21:08:41henrysunsetor a finger and your thumb
21:09:00*langhaarrocker got stuck in the usb jack
21:09:24henrysunsetbut remember
21:09:28*Artine gives up trying to build this thing in Windows and waits until he gets to his own computer for Linux :-)
21:09:30henrysunsetthe overlays aren't required
21:09:39langhaarrockerNow try to do that while the jukebox is in your pocket.
21:09:58henrysunsetif its in your pocket you'd just go into the player menu
21:10:07henrysunsetand then the doble-tapping isnt required
21:10:27langhaarrockerArtine: if you really _need_ a uisim I could send it to you.
21:10:30henrysunsetwhen in the player view; you can change tracks and volume witht the arrows
21:10:56ArtineI'll really need one when I start developing code, which I won't be doing while I'm here. So I'll just wait and build it for X. But thanks
21:11:22henrysunsetlaugh: does that makes sense though?
21:11:33henrysunsetfor the in the pocket example
21:12:26langhaarrockerhenrysunset: what about extending your idea by this: If you press & hold the fx key the overlay remains active for 2 seconds even if you release the the fx key.
21:12:41henrysunsetthat's fine
21:13:05henrysunseti don't think i would choose to use that option but it is a valid one
21:13:20ArtineHmmm..... Here's an idea. What if interface behavior was defined by a script, kind of like how the WPS can be defined by a little definition file?
21:13:33henrysunseti dont think we want to do that
21:13:35ArtineSo that each user could customize the behavior to his/her own preferences?
21:13:59henrysunsetit takes resources to parse it
21:14:07ArtineAh, this is true.
21:14:19langhaarrockerArtine: I'm working on that.
21:14:20*Artine isn't used to developing in such a limited environment :-)
21:14:38henrysunsetand it would prolly make for a less-rich UI; or a overly complex parser
21:14:46langhaarrockerI can already assign some buttons to some functions, parse an external file, etc.
21:15:00henrysunsetwell; i intend to refine this idea a good bit before anyone tries it in code
21:15:29henrysunsetlaugh: how is it going then? i mean are resources an issue?
21:15:48henrysunsetor does it build the ui as a map in memory at boot and then just run off that?
21:15:56langhaarrockerWait a week or two and you can try your idea as key scheme files.
21:16:44henrysunset(i've never been a fan of themes/schemes; but if it does what i want i guess i'll be happy)
21:17:00henrysunseti agree with apple; make one ui; make it good and let the world use it
21:17:24langhaarrockerWe'll of course have a factory-preset.
21:17:30ArtineAnd I agree with LiteStep, make a format and let the world do what they want with it :-)
21:17:40henrysunsetand i'll make sure to make mine be just that :-)
21:17:52langhaarrockerBut I think there are too may different purposes the jukebox can be used in which require different uis
21:18:19henrysunsetthe bigger problem is the limited controls
21:18:50henrysunsetso; can you implement a popup functionality in your schemeable ui?
21:18:52ArtineCompletely: OT: Out of curiosity, is it possible to have any sort of grayscaling of the LCD by, say, changing the voltage on each pixel? Or having different contrast levels for each pixel? Or is contrast just one set level in the LCD controller?
21:19:14henrysunsetprolly if we change contrast rapidly we could fake it
21:19:26ArtineBut again, resource consumption is the problem?
21:19:32langhaarrockerherysunset: configurable menus or overlays will be easy as a side effect.
21:19:33henrysunsetthey did that with the ti85 calculators back in the day
21:19:37henrysunsetbut the screen would flicker
21:19:48ArtineHenrysunset: That's sort of what I was thinking of.
21:20:09henrysunsetartine: prolly
21:20:09ArtineHenry: Really? My calc can grayscale w/o flickering. Odd.
21:20:23henrysunseti dont think so
21:20:28Artine89. But it's technically a one-color LCD
21:20:29langhaarrockerherysunset: I already made the fx_screen functions definable - only the file parsing is missing.
21:20:41henrysunset89 is newer and has shades
21:20:50ArtineOh. Well, nevermind then :-)
21:21:02henrysunsetso what's an fx_screen?
21:21:19langhaarrockerArtine: With the peak meter I experienced gray scales without wanting to.
21:21:23henrysunsetlike what we have now; as f2 and f3?
21:22:28henrysunsetcould the fx_screen appear only when a key is held and dissapear if it is released?
21:23:02henrysunsetrather than appearing when clicked and dissapearing when clicked again
21:23:10langhaarrockeryou can hold fx and press another key and on release of fx the screen vanishes.
21:23:30langhaarrockerwhen clicking fx it remains until clicked off.
21:23:49henrysunsetcan you make the fx_screen only come up after the key has switched from being tapped to being held?
21:24:27langhaarrockerwe can do nearly whatever we want.
21:24:28henrysunsetcuz tapping f1 in my ui would bring the user to the player view
21:24:54henrysunsetbut holding f1 will fring up what you refer to as a fx screen
21:25:33*langhaarrocker feels guilty of being lazy
21:25:51langhaarrockerI could have finished the key scheme demo by now
21:26:03henrysunsetget to i
21:26:30langhaarrockerWell - I posted a dBfs peak meter patch instead.
21:28:01langhaarrockerWhat really is missing is the buid process for the factory preset. We'll want to generate a c file from a key scheme file. Haven't done that yet.
21:36:17henrysunsetah yeah
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21:36:27henrysunsetwhy have a default tho?
21:36:37henrysunsetyou can install one with the installer
21:36:41henrysunsetdoesnt need to be hardcoded
21:36:57langhaarrockerOtherwise the installation would require a additional file. We don't need that.
21:37:06henrysunsetwhy not
21:37:11henrysunsetthe fonts are external
21:37:17henrysunsetwhy shouldnt the ui be
21:37:25henrysunsetthey r both required
21:37:30langhaarrockerAnd if the user changes that file and screws it he could return to the default by deleting his screwed version.
21:37:40henrysunsetoh; another ?... is it possible to use 2 fonts at once?
21:37:45langhaarrockerThere are build in fonts
21:37:48henrysunsetyes true
21:37:59henrysunseti want an intalic or bold font too
21:38:22henrysunsetfor the now playing track in the playlist view
21:38:30langhaarrockerThe key scheme file is only to enable the user to overwrite the default behaviour.
21:38:48langhaarrockerWe can't have servaral fonts active simultaniously.
21:39:00henrysunsetwhy not?
21:39:11henrysunsetjust resources issue
21:39:14langhaarrockerwaste of memory.
21:39:29henrysunsetcould we underline the title of the one that is playing?
21:39:57langhaarrockerThat should be possible. But I won't program it. :)
21:40:17henrysunsetit is probably worthwhile to use a bit more resources if we can improve the user experience a good bit though
21:40:21henrysunseti see
21:40:27henrysunsetwould it be difficult?
21:40:27langhaarrockerWe might have font styles like italic, double strike...
21:40:38henrysunsetyeah all i want is italic
21:41:25henrysunsetpeace i'm out
21:41:29langhaarrockernot difficult. just a new function in lcd.c . Really a job of half an hour, or so. But then we would want to apply font styles to the wps tags. That requires some wore work.
21:41:30henrysunsetgonna go play frisbee
21:41:56henrysunseti see
21:42:05henrysunsetwell i'll refinemy ui doc a bit
21:42:18langhaarrockerdont' hurt yourself. Neither the frisbee.
21:42:26henrysunsetand i don't care if its hardcoded or implemented thro yer ui toolkit but I def wanna work on it
21:42:35henrysunsetok i'll be careful/
21:43:18langhaarrockerthat's good: I can programm, I can't design uis. That's proven.
21:52:34 Nick Artine is now known as Artine-Working (
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22:40:37 Join LinusN [0] (
22:41:30langhaarrockerIs your wife better by now?
22:41:59LinusNnope, not really
22:42:12LinusNi'm home just for the night
22:42:41langhaarrockerIs it serious? Danger for life?
22:43:24LinusNnot for life
22:43:54LinusNbut she probably has quite some time in a wheelchair to look forward to...
22:45:40langhaarrockerBut the time is not for ever I dare to assume?
22:46:55LinusNi guess not.
22:47:11LinusNmost women recover from it completely
22:47:49LinusNit may take some weeks, or even months
22:48:54langhaarrockerIs it your first child? (Congrat's btw!)
22:49:56LinusNthanks! no, it's the second. i have a 3 year old son too
22:49:59 Quit TotMacher ()
22:50:18LinusNcheck out
22:50:59langhaarrockerfunny language
22:51:21LinusNalmost as funny as dutch
22:51:58langhaarrockerdutch is not a language - it's a illnes in the throat.
22:52:55LinusNwhat was the word for sugar lumps again?
22:53:47langhaarrockerProbably more zuiker klontjes. But I'm german and don't know really much dutch.
22:54:25langhaarrockerBut the way you spelled it would probably be phonetically correct.
22:54:53LinusNstrange, i thought you were dutch. where did i get that from?
22:55:26langhaarrockermaybe because of this double aa in langhaarrocker. That's makes it look dutch.
22:57:40 Join Triple-z [0] (
22:58:09Triple-zwhats new?
22:58:27LinusNTriple-z: not much, i guess
22:58:30langhaarrockerI need someone to commit my peak meter dBfs patch.
22:58:45LinusNlanghaarrocker: is it cool?
22:58:56langhaarrockerof course. It's by me.
22:59:03LinusNoh, i forgot :-)
22:59:32LinusNlanghaarrocker: what's new, except the dB scale?
22:59:49langhaarrockerYou have plenty of options now to configure the thing. Another thing to outfeature every peak meter available.
23:00:03LinusNwhat options?
23:00:31langhaarrockerYou can adjust the boundaries (min, max), toggle linear / dBfs, have high performance mode.
23:01:52LinusNk00l, how does the hp mode work?
23:02:01Triple-zthe whole menus are messed up in archos20021027.ajz
23:02:13Triple-zin sound setting etc
23:02:25langhaarrockerLinusN: basically as you told me the way you use the peak meter while recording.
23:02:51langhaarrockerA loop with many peak_meter_peek calls and occasional refreshes.
23:03:23langhaarrockerAnd a yield sometimes to keep bitswap happy.
23:03:29LinusNlanghaarrocker: ok
23:04:03langhaarrockerI did something someone might want to have a look at first.
23:04:13langhaarrockerI extended the mechanism of wps_refresh.
23:04:34langhaarrockerUp to now it could only distinguis wether to update everything or the dynamic lines only
23:05:07langhaarrockerNow that we have multi line scrolling I thought it would be a good idea to fine tune the update mechanism a bit further.
23:05:52Triple-zanyone got problems in the sound setting menu in today built?
23:05:59LinusNTriple-z: haven't tried it
23:06:19Triple-zi got it since the 16.10 built
23:06:25langhaarrockerNow we can specify to update only peak_meter / progressbar / lines, too.
23:06:39LinusNTriple-z: what language?
23:06:41langhaarrockerTriple-z: like functions not returning ?
23:07:05Triple-zits like messed up
23:07:24Triple-zwrong text in the menus
23:08:06LinusNTriple-z: try this: remove the .lng files from .rockbox if you have any
23:08:07Triple-zill use the ver with the queue
23:08:17Triple-zill try
23:08:22langhaarrockerOops. I have that, too. But only for Auto volume.
23:09:13LinusNdaily builds may not like the old 1.4 language files
23:09:40Triple-zill wait for 1.5
23:10:53langhaarrockerI never have used external language files yet.
23:11:06Triple-zi need to find a good way to sort my mp3s on the archos
23:11:14LinusNtime to reboot into linux, cu soon
23:11:16langhaarrockerdelete them?
23:11:23 Part LinusN
23:12:14langhaarrockerhrgh, boss on phone. I'll be back.
23:12:18Triple-zi got them in folders like albums, electronic, etc
23:27:32 Join LinusN [0] (
23:27:33 Quit langhaarrocker (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:31:33 Join langhaarrocker [0] (
23:36:24***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"

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