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#rockbox log for 2004-06-08

00:02:00 Quit AciD (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:23:07 Join RavenWrks [0] (RavenWorks@modemcable240.220-201-24.mc.videotron.ca)
00:23:07 Quit RavenWorks (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:27:05RavenWrksCan anyone help me out.. I just bought an Archos, and it's being really weird... I don't think it's RockBox because I was having problems before it was even installed...
00:27:21BlueChippp...
00:28:23RavenWrksI'm not even sure what I'm asking for, this is all totally flukey, sometimes it can't access the hard drive, sometimes it won't mount in Windows when connected, even when it worked it stopped playing after a second of music...
00:28:37RavenWrksArgh
00:28:58BlueChippp1. remove rockbox
00:29:05BlueChippp2. reboot
00:29:08RavenWrksI can't even access the HD
00:29:34BlueChipppif it will not power at all, then 1. check the batteries
00:30:07RavenWrksIT boots up, and then says REad access error.
00:30:22BlueChipppahh, now an error message - handy
00:30:42BlueChipppdoes rockbox start?
00:30:44RavenWrksIt booted once
00:30:49RavenWrksNow it's not.
00:31:44RavenWrksI get the generic loading screen, version 1.40a (I didn't flash it) and then "Read Access Error, CAnnot... okay,wait, now I'm getting ROckbox's 'REsume?' screen.
00:32:16RavenWrksThis is why I'm so confused, it's not even the same problem every time
00:32:23BlueChipppdodgy connection
00:32:26BlueChipppdropped itrecently?
00:32:34RavenWrksIjust got it.
00:32:37BlueChipppwhich unit is it?
00:32:38RavenWrks.. off eBay.
00:32:41RavenWrksREcorder v2
00:32:52BlueChipppdodgy battery connection in transit
00:32:57BlueChipppreseat battery
00:33:24RavenWrksI was gonna say, the really weird thing was it told me it was charged after 15 minutes, I assumed that the last owner charged it but now I'm getting all these problems...
00:33:32BlueChipppthere are several FAQ with piccies from the rockbox homepage :)
00:33:35RavenWrksis resetting the battery in the Archos manual or ROckbox manual?
00:33:37RavenWrksok ^^
00:33:49BlueChipppRE-SEAT
00:33:57RavenWrksOh!
00:34:00BlueChippplol
00:34:24BlueChippp(i actually think that's quite funny)
00:34:27BlueChippplol
00:34:49BlueChipppthey're a tight fit, and not held securely - if that makes sense
00:34:51RavenWrks'How to repair your broken battery connectors'?
00:35:02BlueChipppthink that is for the V1
00:35:17BlueChipppall i can say is that I know I've seen photos
00:35:24BlueChippp...HEY SCOTT
00:37:41BlueChippphmmm, well RavenWrks, if you see scott666 around, ask him ....he was taking his apart today for another reason and has a digicam
00:39:18 Quit lImbus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:39:20RavenWrksAlright.
00:39:23RavenWrksTHanks..
00:39:44BlueChipppyou'rE welcomE
00:46:43 Join theBishop_sleeps [0] (~sleep21@adslblock234x128.chesco.com)
00:47:13 Nick theBishop_sleeps is now known as thebishop (~sleep21@adslblock234x128.chesco.com)
00:47:18thebishopheyhey
00:47:34thebishopis there a firmware flash program in the Rockbox project?
00:47:42BlueChipppyes
00:47:45thebishopi'm looking at the source right now
00:47:51thebishopwhat file is it?
00:48:00BlueChippperrrrrrr
00:48:32BlueChipppwhile I'm searching... why?
00:49:01thebishopi'm trying to learn how USB programming works, and eventually i want to make a similar project for the Creative Labs Nomad
00:49:06thebishopis it flash.cpp
00:49:33BlueChipppit's firmware_flash in the plugins - it will help none for USB :(
00:49:36thebishop" /flash/uart_boot/flash.cpp"
00:50:06BlueChipppmissed that one///
00:50:07BlueChippp...
00:50:10thebishopso you put the updated file on the HD and the program flashes itself?
00:50:27BlueChipppno you run the flash app and point it at a file and a chip
00:52:07BlueChipppaka. click on a firmware image
00:52:39BlueChipppthe first flash is different as it set up the chip for a new flash technique
00:52:59thebishopbut the program is run from a PC?
00:53:04BlueChipppno
00:53:32BlueChipppyou can modify the hardware and do it over a serial port from the pc
00:53:50thebishopah i see
00:53:52BlueChippprewire a couple of pins on the cpu iirc
00:54:19thebishopwell as far as i can see there is no way to hack up a serial port on the Nomad Xtra
00:54:28RavenWrks... would I be insane to just open up my Archos and try and make the battery fit better, without having found a guide first?
00:55:06BlueChipppnot insane at all - just take a little care the first time
00:55:23BlueChipppI believe it can be done without a soldering iron
00:57:51BlueChipppI bought the V1 for that very reason
00:58:07thebishophey, what is the benefit of the serial port interface?
00:58:17BlueChipppserial debugging
00:58:39thebishopcan you run code from that?
01:00
01:01:32BlueChipppI dont really know, soory
01:01:42BlueChipppif you can flash the chip, it seems likely
01:01:54BlueChipppbut I'm running out of "know" and into "guess"
01:03:19BlueChipppbrb
01:03:23 Quit BlueChippp ("For The Latest Rockbox DevKit AND Advanced Plugins Visit http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyborgsystems")
01:14:50 Join BlueChippp [0] (~bluechip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com)
01:27:05scott666_RavenWrks: still having hardware problems? i see bluechip asked for me to help earlier
01:27:11 Nick scott666_ is now known as scott666 (~scott666@c-24-245-59-203.mn.client2.attbi.com)
01:27:26BlueChipppyou had some photos
01:27:53scott666no i didnt
01:27:58scott666i had links to the rockbox site
01:27:59scott666heh
01:30:04RavenWrksAck, hi!
01:30:30RavenWrksUmm, wow, I just put a little screwdriver between the two rectangular metal things which I assume are battery cells, and abunch of lights turned on...
01:31:12BlueChippp:)
01:31:28RavenWrksI tried turning it on after that, and got the HD access error message.
01:31:59BlueChipppmaybe you need to leave the screwdriver in the gap to keep the circuit complete?
01:32:06scott666BETWEEN the 2 rectangular metal things?
01:32:21RavenWrksScott −− yes. Blue −− that would be inconvenient. X3
01:32:26BlueChippp"i shorted out two metal things and it worked"
01:32:41scott666youre going through the top of the unit, right?
01:32:45RavenWrksYep.
01:32:50BlueChipppI dont really understand that at all, but if it fixes the problem...
01:32:57 Quit thebishop (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:32:58scott666those 2 metal things are the 2 cells of the battery
01:33:02RavenWrksBut I also took off the bottom, and the four blue screws −− this is a V2 −− and it's not really coming apart.
01:33:10RavenWrksBlue −− it turns on just fine, that's not the problem.
01:33:13scott666the bottom is pretty useless
01:33:18scott666its serial on the MM units
01:33:23RavenWrksdoes it have to come off to be disassembled, though?
01:33:35scott666i think so
01:33:45scott666ive never tried not taking it off
01:33:46BlueChipppRavenWrks you have stated so many problems i don't really know what you're trying to do
01:33:49scott666i will next time
01:34:02BlueChipppif you're randomly shorting the unit out, you will eventually kill it
01:34:37RavenWrksWell I didn't do it again after the first time.
01:34:45scott666RavenWrks: do the metal things on the bottom of the top (the cover) touch both metal things?
01:35:25BlueChippplol -do the metal things touch the metal things - lol
01:35:51RavenWrkswell, it starts up without the cover in...
01:36:05scott666does it work though?
01:36:25RavenWrksI got the same HD read error as before.
01:36:34scott666when the cover is off you should have to press down on the battery to get it to turn on
01:36:35RavenWrksTrying again.
01:36:41RavenWrksNope, starting fine
01:36:54scott666the cover pushes it down to the contacts
01:36:57RavenWrkswell as "fine" as it ever has
01:37:06RavenWrksnow it's saying 'please format drive'
01:37:13scott666is your drive formatted?
01:37:30RavenWrksIt was.
01:37:45scott666same thing when you reboot?
01:37:46RavenWrksIt wouldn't surprise me if it got messed up during all of these screwy startups.
01:38:11BlueChipppconnect the drive to a pc
01:38:16RavenWrksOK
01:38:27scott666youll need a soldering iron for that
01:38:37RavenWrksfor what?
01:38:46scott666connecting the drive to a pC
01:38:48scott666well
01:38:57scott666for being able to connect it to a PC anyway
01:39:14scott666actually CONNECTING it doesnt need soldering
01:39:19 Quit Strath (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
01:39:19NSplitanthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
01:39:22scott666unless you want to do it the hard way
01:39:26RavenWrksConnected, it's booting
01:39:34RavenWrksUSB logo on Archos, 'deedoo' noise from Windows
01:39:47RavenWrksbut it's not appearing in My Computer
01:39:48scott666oh
01:39:56BlueChipppXP
01:39:56scott666thought he meant the DRIVE
01:40:18RavenWrks'Safely Remove' refers to it as a 'USB mass storage device', which it didn't back when it was working (better).
01:41:03scott666it should be a USB mass storage drive
01:42:09scott666*device
01:42:16scott666just checked with mine
01:42:37RavenWrksYeah, sorry, I was thinking of the 'add hardware' control panel, it had a much longer name there.
01:42:46RavenWrksstill not showing up in My Computer though.
01:42:57RavenWrksI'm gonna unplug and replug it.
01:43:38BlueChipppis it running archos or rockbox f/w?
01:44:15RavenWrksRockbox, but I was having trouble even before I managed to copy it on.
01:45:02RavenWrksOkay, now Rockbox is listing my songs again.
01:45:14RavenWrksThis definately seems like a case of something being loose. :P
01:45:45 Quit mecraw ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
01:46:18BlueChipppnow rockbox is running - connect windows and see the usb enabled screen on the unit
01:46:28RavenWrksIt just gave me an error message I didn't get a chance to read, and everything below the status bar disappeared..
01:46:31RavenWrksnow it's listing my songs again
01:46:51RavenWrksOkay, now it's showing a nifty picture of a USB cable, with the USB logo.
01:47:46RavenWrksWindows made the noise, but it's still not appearing.
01:47:54NHealanthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
01:47:54NJoinStrath [0] (~mike@dgvlwinas01pool0-a200.wi.tds.net)
01:47:57 Join StrathAFK [0] (~mike@dgvlwinas01pool0-a200.wi.tds.net)
01:47:57BlueChipppthis is fer sure a dodgy connection
01:48:17BlueChipppI believe Rockbox has some serious USB atm - try renaming the rockbox file and rebooting
01:48:22 Quit Strath (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:48:36BlueChippp*USB problems
01:48:45RavenWrksHow can I remove it without being able to access it from Windows?
01:48:54BlueChipppON+PLAY, rename file
01:49:05BlueChipppjust be warned, you wil not be able to rename it back
01:49:15RavenWrksI'll just unzip it again.
01:49:22BlueChipppnot if you cant connect
01:49:40BlueChipppbest method is to have the original firmware on the drive
01:49:55BlueChipppbut that mey be "future reference" info
01:50:18RavenWrksI'll settle for it working with ANY firmware.
01:55:32RavenWrksMaybe I'd be able to just push the battery into place if I could get this thing open.
01:55:39RavenWrksI took off the top and the bottom, and the four blue side screws...
01:55:44RavenWrksdoes anything else have to be unscrewed?
01:55:53RavenWrksSorry to be this much trouble.
01:57:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:59:22RavenWrksThe webpage the Rockbox site linked to said something about prying the batteries out...
01:59:44BlueChipppmechanically i can't really help as I own a V1
02:00
02:04:24scott666what are you planning on doing?
02:04:58RavenWrksmaking sure the battery's inserted snugly.
02:05:22scott666do you have a soldering iron?
02:05:43RavenWrksNope.
02:05:44scott666or more importantly, do you know how to use one?
02:05:49scott666ok
02:05:57scott666well then you wont be able to get very deep
02:06:16BlueChipppdrive has started
02:06:23scott666to take off the faceplate you need to remove the top, the bottom, and the battery
02:06:47scott666then you need to turn the unit onto its face and look where the battery was and find the black screw and remove that
02:07:07RavenWrksI see the black screw but I'm not sure how to get the battery out.
02:07:12scott666then you have to pry off (carefully) both sides of the face
02:07:23scott666you should just have to shake it
02:08:39RavenWrksHow hard?
02:08:47scott666uhh
02:08:50scott666not very
02:08:59RavenWrksI'm shaking pretty hard, it's not budging
02:09:16scott666i should probably put in a disclaimer right about now
02:09:36RavenWrksOkay, not REALLY hard, but you know what I mean. :P
02:09:43scott666not budging at all?
02:10:01scott666shake as hard as youre willing to try
02:10:02RavenWrksNot as far as I can tell.
02:10:35scott666if it moves enough to grab you can pull it out
02:11:17RavenWrksOkay, I gotta find something other than this screwdriver, I was just pushing the SIDE and it started up.
02:11:25RavenWrksbut only for a second, just the backlighting went on and then off.
02:11:37RavenWrksWait, pushing it with my FINGER does it...
02:11:50scott666pushing it down?
02:11:57RavenWrksPUshing it sideways.
02:11:58BlueChipppi can advice an old trick- it's a bodge though
02:12:02BlueChipppadvise
02:12:17RavenWrksBodge..?
02:12:24BlueChipppjam a bit of cardboard in it
02:12:37RavenWrksWhich side?
02:12:42BlueChippplol
02:12:50BlueChipppthe side that makes it move the way you want it to move
02:13:02RavenWrksBut getting it to turn on isn't the problem....
02:13:10RavenWrksisn't stuff lighting up when I haven't pushed the On button a BAD thing?
02:13:12BlueChipppit was once
02:13:25RavenWrksGetting it to boot properly is the problem.
02:13:36RavenWrksIt's always turned on; it's what happens after the startup screen that's the problem.
02:14:05BlueChipppyou need to make the battery contacts good
02:14:28scott666yeah, thats my guess
02:14:42scott666he needs to unsolder the 7 points though
02:14:50scott666the contacts are on the other side
02:14:50BlueChippphold it in place and see if it works - if it does, then do whatever is required to keep the battery in that position
02:15:01RavenWrksSmall question...
02:15:15BlueChipppget some ethanol or similar and pour it in and swill it about
02:16:11RavenWrksshould I be able to see a black band in the top of the screen window?
02:16:16RavenWrksAbove the LCD
02:16:23RavenWrksit seems like the screen is too far down
02:17:01RavenWrksso anyway, however I hold the batteries to make the lights go on, keep them like that?
02:17:04RavenWrksHow will I turn it off?
02:17:35scott666press off
02:17:40BlueChippplol
02:17:42scott666*hold
02:18:01RavenWrksOh, wow, this is weird, it just booted, but not into RockBox...
02:18:40scott666i dont suppose you have a warranty
02:19:05RavenWrkseBay.
02:19:22scott666figures
02:19:40scott666http://www.angelfire.com/trek/archos/diagnosis.htm
02:19:46BlueChipppbattery jogged out in transit is my guess
02:19:50scott666scroll down to the battery contacts part
02:21:11RavenWrksI can't even get it apart...
02:21:52RavenWrksI can't get it to start up with a push anymore, either.
02:22:29BlueChipppyou need to focus on one task at a time me thinks
02:23:03RavenWrksI just squeezed the sides and it did it.. and then it did it on its own...
02:23:15RavenWrksand in fact it doesn't start up, just both lights light up, then the red one turns off, then the green.
02:23:17scott666that is definitely a battery contact problem
02:23:30scott666youll have to take it apart if you want it to work again
02:23:53scott666squeezing the sides always means battery contacts
02:24:10RavenWrksthe sides of the top.... but still.
02:26:03RavenWrkswhat if I took out the black screw first?
02:27:19scott666what about the black screw?
02:27:33RavenWrkswould it help me get the batteries out?
02:28:03scott666well, eventually
02:28:17scott666but the battery contacts are on the opposite side of the PCB
02:28:40scott666you need to de-solder the 7 points and pull the board off and turn it over
02:30:24scott666its a fairly simple task if youve had any experience at all with a soldering iron
02:30:38RavenWrksI've seen someone do it.
02:31:00RavenWrksThe HD is making a ticking sound when it seeks....
02:31:07BlueChippplack of power
02:31:46RavenWrksMakes sense.
02:31:57RavenWrksSame reason it won't play for more than a second when it actually starts?
02:32:29 Quit scott666 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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02:33:14scott666damn exploding trillian
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02:55:04StrathAFKbbiab
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03:00
03:00:23RavenWrksIt occurs to me.... maybe what I'm doing to make the lights light up is not CONNECTING the battery, but pulling it *out* of place... then once I stop, it goes back into place and the lights go on....
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03:05:51 Nick midknight2k3 is now known as midk (Zakk@c-67-160-88-198.client.comcast.net)
03:07:04RavenWrksmust not resort to using teeth on this stupid battery...
03:37:50 Quit BlueChippp (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
03:37:50 Quit RavenWrks (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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03:57:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:00
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04:40:13guest_2004my ac adapter will not charge my JBR 20 V2, what can I do?
04:41:15BlueChipppwhat have you done since the last time it worked?
04:42:41guest_2004I have been using the USB, but you know it takes forever
04:43:09BlueChipppsorry, what takes forever?
04:43:31guest_2004charging the battery
04:44:41scott666do you have a warranty?
04:45:13scott666if not it sounds like you will have to replace the charging circuit
04:45:20guest_2004yes, but I would have to remove the Rockbox firmware first
04:45:30scott666is that a problem?
04:45:44guest_2004replace the charging circuit, is it something I could do?
04:45:48scott666depends
04:45:53scott666do you have experience with soldering?
04:46:25guest_2004some, on my older dvd player, but nothing with circuit boards
04:47:09guest_2004I have had no response from Archos help emails, so I will have to call them
04:47:17BlueChipppnewmp3technology are selling a diy charger reapir kit
04:47:37BlueChipppdont waste your time with archos (imho)
04:47:53guest_2004I can check it out. thanks !
04:48:07scott666they dont sell a diy headphone repair kit do they?
04:48:22BlueChipppyeah, it's called "a decent soldering iron"
04:48:23BlueChippplol
04:49:46scott666that would help
04:50:08guest_2004looks like the repair kits are not available until Aug to Oct timeframe
04:50:25BlueChipppboo
04:50:29BlueChipppemail 'em
05:00
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05:22:30Guest_2004So is there anyone else who repairs JBR 20 V2 charge circuits?
05:24:06BlueChipppnot as a speciality in my knowledge
05:24:25midknewmp3technology.com?
05:24:35BlueChipppno more
05:24:39BlueChippp:( boo
05:24:52midk?
05:25:01BlueChipppnewmp3 - no more achos repairs
05:25:35BlueChipppI just did the coolest fix to rockbox :)
05:25:46dwihnohooray for fixes
05:25:50midkaww
05:25:53midkooh what bc
05:26:34BlueChipppwatch sourceforge in 5 mins
05:29:57BlueChipppdone
05:31:22midkooh
05:31:33midkis audio 3587 still a plugin?
05:32:27BlueChipppyes
05:32:31BlueChipppno room in the main f/w
05:33:47midkhmm
05:33:50midkwhat else is new with it
05:34:27dwihnoaudio 3587?
05:34:30BlueChipppI have a release email ready to go the newsgroup once it is done - it has about three pages of new features
05:35:18midkWOW
05:35:24midki want to try it.
05:37:48BlueChipppit needs new f/w - what patches should I include?
05:38:17midkmine mine mine
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05:57:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:58:44BlueChipppi fancy , volume-triggered recordings; rva tag support and dir sort order :) any others you can think f?
06:00
06:01:32BlueChipppare you interested in beta'ing what I have so far?
06:01:54midki can tomorrow
06:01:59midkno archos tonight
06:02:02BlueChipppok
06:02:07midk*decides not to use the word "promise"
06:02:10midk:D
06:04:05 Quit midk ("yo yo yo cya later YO YO YO wasa wasa!")
06:06:16 Part BlueChippp
06:28:47 Part scott666
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07:00
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08:23:29 Join Bagder [241] (~dast@labb.contactor.se)
08:24:19LinusNanother fork....stay a while...stay FOREVER!!!! :-)
08:24:42Bagderok, I stay!
08:24:45Bagder:-)
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09:42:45Zagorhi guys
09:42:52dwihnoDr. Zagor! :O *gasp*
09:45:44BagderZagor: to round up, BlueChip considers himself "forced" to release his own builds due to us lacking the API support
09:46:06BagderI say we don't patch the API since we're not allowed to include his plugins anyway
09:46:25ZagorBlueChip: are you ok with discussing this here and now?
09:53:47Zagorisn't he here?
09:53:56Bagderhe was here 5 mins ago
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10:07:50BlueChipbrb
10:10:44BlueChipanswering machine ....I'l try again in 20mins or so
10:10:47BlueChipanyway...
10:11:08BlueChipyou say: one of my emails is a clear indicator that I am "forking" ....which one?
10:11:18Bagderthe announcement one
10:11:32Bagderbut that is not that important
10:11:45Bagderin my eyes and terms, you are doing a rockbox fork
10:11:49BlueChipMy long term aim is that it will only require the Audio_3587.rock file, but that requires certain core code changes.
10:11:56BlueChipquoted from the email
10:12:08Bagderthose were more extensive than I was aware of
10:12:50BlueChipso I hope you can now see that is a clear indicator of NOT "forking"
10:13:00BlueChipthe changes are extensive you say?
10:13:38Bagderyes
10:13:40Bagdera bit too
10:13:51BagderI think we should settle on the main issue first
10:14:00Bagderthen everything else will be fine
10:14:02BlueChipI cannot believe I am arguing about something that can be proven so simply ...implement the required changes and watch the "fork" disappear
10:14:27Bagderthe lang stuff for example is not simple, it is ugly
10:14:31BlueChipI have told you I am not forking - what would I possibly gain by lying???
10:14:44Bagderbut again, I think the main issue it not the code or the patches
10:15:26BlueChipi think "bluechip forking" is the SOLE reason I tracked you down today
10:15:36Bagderyes
10:15:42Bagderbut the reason for the fork is...
10:15:44BlueChiphe is not
10:15:53BlueChipthere is no fork
10:15:57BlueChiplol
10:16:02Bagderthat we cannot accept your code into rockbox without a real person to acknowledge
10:16:32BlueChipi am real
10:16:38Bagderso you say
10:16:51Bagderbut when someone sues, it is better to know more details
10:17:00BlueChipi kinda think "I don't believe you exist" kinda kills the conversation
10:17:25BlueChipdude if someone sues, reverse my ip
10:17:58ZagorBlueChip: post-sco, i don't want to play silly games. no name, no merge.
10:18:04BlueChipso I say "my name is Fred West" ...you have no choice but to believe me - here we go again - three hours of this I had with linus
10:18:37Zagoryeah call me silly, then again you don't get to chat with the lawyers.
10:18:41BlueChipyes, you have made yourself perfectly clear
10:18:51Bagderso, you have a fork
10:18:51BlueChipcool
10:19:04BlueChipthere is no fork
10:19:06BagderI don't think its cool
10:19:24Bagderby definition, I think your projects meats all requirements to call it a fork
10:19:25BlueChipwhat I am saying is, if you want to be stubborn too, I am alright with that
10:19:36Bagderreally
10:19:48Zagori'm not being stubborn. i'm being legal.
10:19:49Bagderwho's stubborn?
10:20:01Bagderwe can motivate this standpoint
10:20:03BlueChipyes, I said it in posts to your zagor you will have undoubtedly read also
10:20:17BlueChipwe are, we both have views which we will not change
10:20:36BlueChipwe can fight, or learn to live together with our differences, i prefer the latter
10:20:44Zagorif you want to call me names for ensuring Rockbox has a clean legal sheet, then go ahead. you'll only look stupid.
10:21:02BlueChipWHAT!?
10:21:10BlueChipwhere did that come from?
10:21:30BlueChipam i here just to be slandered or to work on a viable solution?
10:21:46Zagoroh, grow up or read up on slander.
10:22:14BlueChiphow much would you like me to grow up by?
10:22:36BlueChipslander is spoken, i consider this textual chat to be spoken in as much as it is in real time
10:22:53Bagderit isn't slander, BlueChip
10:23:14BagderBjörn is asking for some backup from the people that contribute
10:23:24BlueChipcan we drop this stupid pointless childish arguing crap and talk about how to work together
10:23:37Bagderbut how can we work together if we can't use your code?
10:23:55BlueChipWe find a compromise
10:24:01Bagdersuch as?
10:24:42BlueChipyou use the core changes without credit and I release the plugin myself
10:25:34Zagorthat's not a solution to the real problem
10:25:51BlueChipis it a solution to the immediate problem?
10:26:00BlueChipreal or imaginary
10:26:17Zagornot really, since we haven't even started discussing the merits of the changes
10:26:31BlueChipgo4it
10:26:40BlueChipask away
10:27:53Bagdermost of what you ask is not available as patches
10:28:00Bagdernor have they been discussed on the list
10:28:13Zagorhow do you plan to keep from confusing people when 80% volume means different things before and after running your plugin?
10:28:39BlueChipi don't - that is the nature of the new volume scale
10:28:53Zagorthat scale is only present in your plugin
10:28:57Bagderwhy have several scales?
10:29:02BlueChipat the moment yes
10:29:13BlueChipnot several, just one, that works better then the RB one
10:29:23Bagderdefine "works better" ?
10:29:24Zagorso your plugin depends on changing the core sound code?
10:29:39BlueChipoffers more control over the audio levels in the listening range
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10:30:26Zagorit still doesn't change the fact that you will make alterations that are not reflected in the core user interface
10:30:31BlueChipthe new scale could be on/off with a switch
10:31:05BlueChipsorry, the typing is a line of two out of sync - that was my answer to "define better"
10:31:22Bagderthen we have the lang stuff you want to do
10:31:23BlueChipand no, better does not mean no changes
10:31:30Bagderand the odd running your plugin from core code
10:31:34BlueChipyou mean voice?
10:31:45BagderI don't know, you mentioned lang.h
10:32:04BlueChipi need to include it to use the talk interface
10:32:15Bagderand we haven't seen any "autoexec.bat" patch to my knowledge
10:32:27BlueChipautoexec: idc-dragon i think mentioned it
10:33:00BlueChiplang: i managed to do it all with existing quotes, but i would have liked "centre" and "preset"
10:33:03Bagderand what is a .vol file?
10:33:09Zagorit sounds like you are not really making a plugin at all, you are making a major patch for the sound code. which is fine, but requires a lot more discussion to be accepted.
10:33:28Bagderyou ask for lots of stuff without detailing, and it makes me utterly confused
10:33:37BlueChip.vol: essentially an MAS register dump ...see struct globals in my code
10:33:54BlueChipthe detail is in the file for which i sent you the link
10:33:58BagderI'm not allowed to use your code, so I don't read it
10:34:18BlueChipok
10:34:26BagderI read submitted patches
10:34:33BlueChipshould I even discuss it with you?
10:34:39Bagderyes
10:34:42Bagderdiscuss is the word
10:34:49Bagderplease explain
10:35:01BlueChip.vol has stuff in it that changes the sound when used with the Audio-3587 plugin
10:35:16Bagderwhat stuff and how does it change the sound?
10:35:16BlueChipmore info?
10:35:58Bagderbtw
10:36:15Bagderisn't that vol stuff simply gonna be invoked by the standard viewers concept?
10:36:32BlueChipscreen layout info, custom settings, mas register dump
10:36:40BlueChipand a file id
10:37:07BlueChipyes, of course, standard viewers -cool - another problem solved by us :)
10:37:38Bagder?
10:38:22BlueChipstandard viewers, i guess you mean some text registry file or such, in which case, yes it will solve the problem
10:38:36BagderI mean viewers.config
10:38:40Bagdercheck your cvs
10:38:55Bagderits there already
10:38:56BlueChipis it in?
10:39:13Bagderyeps
10:39:16BlueChipkewl - been working hard on this and haven't updated in a few days
10:39:39BlueChipokay ...one down, what's next?
10:39:46BlueChipmy phone call... brb
10:42:00BlueChiphmmm, may have to call this short in about 30mins - gotta fix my answering machine for an important call back later :(
10:42:32BlueChipmeanwhile ...back on the ranch...
10:43:31BlueChipstill there?
10:43:52Bagderyou mentioned item a to g in your reply
10:44:47BlueChipa ...add talk() to plugin.h
10:44:59Bagderhave you discussed this on the list?
10:45:11BlueChipyes
10:45:16Bagderand?
10:45:26BlueChipit requires (b) which linus says "No"
10:45:37BlueChipas mentioned in the email
10:45:56BagderI haven't read that on the list
10:46:05BlueChipbrb
10:46:07Bagderso I can't comment
10:47:43BlueChipbak
10:47:53Bagderbesides
10:47:56BagderI tend to agree
10:48:05Bagderthe lang.h stuff is generated for the firmware build
10:48:13Bagderit may change, while the plugin API does not
10:48:35Bagderso plugins can't know what sounds to play
10:49:07Bagdercertainly an area we could or even should address somehow
10:49:36BlueChipi think it would be nice to have speech-capable plugins - the vocab is restricted, but for a blind person...
10:49:45BagderI agree
10:49:54BagderI think we should have language support too
10:49:58Bagderbut we don't have that either
10:50:06BlueChipexcept for sokoban - lol
10:50:41BlueChipyes, I did all my language strings at the top of my code, so it's all ready to go
10:51:05Bagdersokoban doesn't have language support
10:51:10BlueChipit even has a #define SPEAK_AMERICAN ...lol
10:51:33BlueChipsokoban has an entry in the laguage table
10:51:38Bagderyes
10:51:41Bagderbut it isn't used
10:51:50Bagderit is from before we had the plugins like this
10:51:54BlueChipsorry, it was intended as a joke
10:52:02Bagdermy point is:
10:52:06Bagderwe fix the concept first
10:52:12Bagderthen add functions for it
10:52:56BlueChipsounds like a sensible approach
10:53:53Bagderin many cases, this means it'll take a long time until we add functions
10:53:58Bagderlike for languages in plugins
10:54:27BlueChipi can wait
10:54:37BlueChiptime is my friend
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10:58:19Bagderthat is a) and b) right?
10:58:27BlueChipthink so :)
10:58:38Bagderitem c) sounds too much of a hack, we need to make that more generic
10:59:21BlueChipyeah, it is rather, can we leave that until last?
10:59:55Bagderitem d) hasn't been done, has it?
11:00
11:00:18BlueChipd) could be concluded by an autoexec.bat file ...which has been discussed re car-head units and i recall a few other ideas being thrown in the pot
11:00:29Bagderit has been discussed, yes
11:00:40LinusNan "autoexec" mechanism sounds ok with me
11:00:46Bagderit is a good idea
11:00:51BlueChipi like it too
11:01:00Bagderlike "run this plugin on startup with this argument"
11:01:03BlueChipmuch better than my current bodge by 10000x
11:01:06Bagderplugins rather
11:01:11BlueChipyes
11:01:33BlueChipmaybe later to include things like IF PLUGGED
11:01:49LinusNwhich means?
11:02:02BlueChipload different settings if the unit is connected to the mains
11:02:07LinusNah
11:02:14Bagderyes, it could make sense
11:02:27Zagora general event handler seems the way to go.
11:03:04BlueChipnot sure i understand
11:03:25LinusNZagor: calling a plugin when the charger is inserted?
11:03:41Zagoryup
11:04:16Zagornot just a plugin though, different actions. many people probably want to load a different .cfg, for car use.
11:05:16LinusNdream on, zagor... :-)
11:05:54BagderZagor: it could be a plugin that loads that different .cfg
11:05:57BlueChipsounds damn cool to me
11:07:12Zagormy point is if/when someone writes autoexec code, it should be done in a generic way to allow use for different events.
11:07:13BlueChipof course! ...for the simpler autoexec idea ...write a plugin called autoexec.rock and just call that from the core code ...the delay is irrelevant, the disk needs to spin up to run the first .rock anyway
11:07:35BagderI agree
11:08:03dwihnoWhat if you want to launch several plugins?
11:08:10Zagoryou can't
11:08:25dwihnoIn the Future(tm), everything will be possible :)
11:08:27Bagderthe autoexec.rock could use a config file and run whatever you tell it to
11:08:29BlueChipdwihno: you just have a text file with a list of events
11:08:35BlueChiplike autoexec.bat
11:08:47dwihnoneato
11:08:58BlueChipok ....d) is gone
11:09:12LinusNor the .cfg files could be able to run a plugin...
11:09:40LinusNthen it would be autoexec.cfg
11:09:45BlueChiplol
11:10:02BlueChipi suggest you only ever call PlugChain.rock and let that do all the work :)
11:10:20Bagderno, that's left for emacs.rock ;-P
11:10:27BlueChiplol
11:13:22BlueChipcan we move onto e
11:14:22Bagdere) must be completely stand-alone and won't be in the way, right?
11:14:35LinusNi think it should go right in
11:14:44Bagderme too
11:15:06BlueChipthen f ...which we've already covered
11:15:21BlueChipand is no longer an issue - i need to look into that further
11:15:43Bagderyou'll figure out the viewers.config file in no time
11:15:51BlueChipcool :)
11:16:04BlueChipg ..hmmmm
11:16:20Bagderwe really should write some docs about it
11:16:26BlueChipyes, it is a real change, but I think a worthy one
11:16:40BlueChipthere is a lot of room for more docs in rockbox
11:16:43BagderI don't understand the g) point
11:16:47BlueChipwe need a manual man
11:16:50Bagderyes
11:17:21BlueChipg ...my volume scale is not linear
11:17:34BlueChipie 127/100*volume
11:18:06Bagderbut that's a plugin
11:18:17Bagderit works around the core
11:18:26BlueChipI propose that it is considered for inclusion
11:18:35BlueChipthat Rockbox change it's scale
11:19:18BlueChipit's a big change, yes, and adding another switch to on/off it is extra work, but I think it is a worthy improvement
11:19:38BlueChipI believe in it enought to research it and do it properly
11:19:57Bagderstill not a single soul has reported volume problems
11:20:27BlueChipit's a case of not knowing that it can be made better
11:20:30Bagderexcept for those who like you realized that there are some resolution losses in current code
11:20:55BlueChipindeed - and I made it my job to fix it and offer it to the community
11:21:38BlueChipif they like it, it might be nice to adopt it for rockbox
11:21:48Bagderexcept that we're not allowed to use your patches
11:22:03Bagderback to square 1
11:22:27BlueChipyou don't use my patch - work it out for yourself fom the results in the public forum
11:22:57Bagderanyway, that g) issue is also stand-alone
11:22:59BlueChipbtw... you CHOOSE not to use my code for reasons that are not known to me
11:23:05Bagderthey are known
11:23:13Bagderscroll back 100 lines
11:23:22BlueChipno thanks
11:25:27BagderI suggest that we solve the problem like this: you provide the core group with your real, actual, name, we keep it hidden from the public and we credit you as "Anonymous nicknamed Bluechip" or somesuch
11:25:58BlueChiphow many different ways do i have to prove im not lying
11:26:13Bagderwhy do you ask that?
11:26:26Bagderthen forget it
11:26:42LinusNwhy would you lie?
11:26:47BlueChipit is a fair question
11:27:20BlueChipLinusN: Bagder has apparently retracted his offer before I could answer his question :(
11:27:39Bagderthen how do you suggest we solve this?
11:27:52BagderI reach out here
11:27:54Bagderyou do not
11:27:58BlueChipby being nice to each other or a start
11:28:10BlueChipi have offered a solution
11:28:22Bagderwhich is?
11:28:46BlueChiptake the core changes and pretend it was someone elses idea
11:30:21LinusNand constantly hear things like this in the mailing list:
11:30:24LinusN"I think the chances of NewMP3Tech crediting you is about as unlikely as Rockbox crediting me."
11:30:30LinusN?
11:30:56BlueChipplease put the whole thing in context
11:31:15BlueChipjorg was complaining to me personally that his work was uncredited
11:31:26BlueChipi replied "me too"
11:31:29Zagorthe ideas are not special. the point is we want to offload the work of writing the code. your solution gives us no benefit.
11:31:52Zagorthat was not the context. read the archive.
11:32:17BlueChiphere we go again
11:32:24BlueChipi'm getting real bored of this guys
11:32:30LinusNso are we
11:32:46BlueChipso how do we resolve it?
11:32:54LinusNi think daniels idea was good
11:32:59BlueChipby "mud slinging"?
11:33:07Zagori don't
11:33:46BlueChipyou were downright rude at me in your private emails
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11:34:23LinusNi was?
11:34:29LinusNor zagor?
11:34:43BlueChipzagor
11:34:58Zagoryou repeatedly refused to ask my question. you still do. that, if anything, is rude.
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11:35:09LinusNs/ask/answer/
11:35:14Zagorright
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11:36:45BlueChipi took a three hour grilling from Linus over this - I just can;t be arsed to go through it again and again
11:36:59BlueChipgrilling is perhpas a harsh word
11:36:59LinusN:-)
11:36:59LinusNbbq:ing?
11:37:00BlueChip...but it was discussed in immense depth for three hours
11:37:12BlueChiplol
11:37:49Zagorand therefore I am rude. go figure.
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11:56:09BlueChipwelcome back one and all
11:56:51BlueChipc ...shal we just leave this until people rave about the new plugin and then consider the best solution then - we've already proved we can work together well if we put the rubbish behind us
11:57:39BlueChip<a hush falls>
11:57:55BlueChiphave you guys all left?
11:58:06***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:00
12:07:45lImbusScansoft's Realspeak is an even better text-to-speech-engine
12:08:19lImbusthere are roumors it's in the house here, but nobody knows where I can get a copy.
12:08:37BlueChipkazaa?
12:16:16BlueChiphmm, "goodbye" would have been nice - still I presume that some important "nmi" type thing happened and wish you well with that as well :)
12:30:48lImbusBlueChip: Sorry, I am at work, so it happens someone asks me to help him or sth like that.
12:30:53lImbuswhats nmi ?
12:31:27lImbuskazaa doesn't work for me, not at work :-/ furthermore, we got a LEGAL version at work
12:31:57BlueChipsorry limbus, not aimed at you, i was in a heavy chat with Zagor and Bagder, and they both just stopped talking when Linus went to lunch
12:32:08BlueChipnon-maskable-interrupt
12:34:55lImbusIC. i'm off for lunch now too.
12:44:27Zagorwe were off for lunch
12:45:00LinusNwe work in the same building
12:45:24BlueChipahhhhh, it all becomes clear
12:46:03BlueChipanyway, i used the time to rapair my answerphone :)
12:46:45BlueChipbought it 2nd hand (old two phillips cassette style one) ...the messages on it were quite amusing
12:47:28BlueChipwooh - first time :)
12:47:34BlueChip*oo
12:47:35BlueChiplol
12:52:26BlueChipdid you want to comment on my solution to c)
12:53:32LinusNwhich one?
12:54:31DBUGEnqueued KICK BlueChip
12:54:31BlueChip01c ...shal we just leave this until people rave about the new plugin and then consider the best solution then
12:55:06Bagderyes
12:55:31BlueChipthen everything is resolved :)
12:56:20LinusNBlueChip: the volume fade thing when powering off, is the fade important, or is the ridding of the pop enough?
12:56:36BlueChipridding the pop
12:56:56LinusNok
12:56:58BlueChipyou're gonna tell me the mute does it aren;t you - lol
12:57:25LinusNwell, i have though about using the mute for it, have you tried it?
12:57:48BlueChipno, i didn't know the register, those lines I just banged out from memory
12:58:16LinusNthe correct way is probably to mute, then turn off the D/A
12:58:22BlueChipbut I do recall something about ramping in the manual, hence mt 0.1S delay at the end
12:58:44BlueChipturn off d/a seems anal - in the good way
12:58:56LinusNiirc, the manual recommends it
12:59:05BlueChipin which case i retract that comment
12:59:18BlueChipmaybe some silicon reason
13:00
13:00:41BlueChipit would be really nice to trap it before hardware powerdown too
13:01:10LinusNhmm, i can't find it in the manual, i guess i was wrong
13:01:40BlueChipwell, it'll save a few bytes
13:02:15BlueChipdone lots of that the past few days - spent half my time optimising code to be under 32K after optimising it for screen update speed - lol
13:03:17BlueChipdid you know static const char foo[0]="foo" is identical to #define foo "foo" as far as codespace is concerned ...but #define allows prep-processor string manipulation :)
13:09:36BlueChipWhat do you think of the new Audio stuff?
13:09:47BagderI haven't seen it
13:10:08Bagderso I can't comment
13:10:26BlueChipdo you plan to remain untainted?
13:10:36Bagderbasicly, yes
13:11:00BlueChipthat's fair, it's good to have principles :)
13:11:06Bagderbut its also a matter of time
13:11:41BlueChipoh, by the way, what's happnening with my othelo code, i'm surprised you lawyers didn't mention it when you spoke to them
13:11:49Bagderit will be removed
13:12:09BlueChipcool, then I can remove the old version from my site :)
13:12:12Bagderunfortunately
13:12:45BlueChipnah dude, I'm surprised you didn't do it a long time ago, I guessed you didn't want all the questions about why
13:14:07BlueChip"01but its also a matter of time" ...til what?
13:14:20Bagderthat limits what I do
13:14:39BlueChipaha
13:14:44LinusNrather "lack of time"
13:14:51Bagderyes
13:14:58BlueChipwell feel free to use it or not use it as you prefer :)
13:15:27BlueChipit is DAMN awesome though ;)
13:15:57Bagder:-)
13:17:10BlueChiphey, dude, if you're worried about some legal backlash, why not we agree on an appropriate legal disclaimer?
13:18:21BlueChipmy post has just arrived ....the top letter is a parcel (some chewing gum) from a friend addressed to "BC" ;)
13:18:39BlueChipeven the postman knows me as BC - lol
13:18:54Zagoryou are not a legal entity. we cannot have an agreement with you.
13:19:14BlueChipok, just offering options
13:20:00Zagori'd love to have an agreement with you, but it would be worthless unless we (or rather the lawyers) know who you are.
13:20:35BlueChipperhaps I should deal with your lawyers directly, who are they?
13:21:04ZagorI am talking about future lawyers, hired by the guys who sue us.
13:21:47BlueChipwhat are they going to be sueing for?
13:21:54LinusNcode theft maybe?
13:22:03Zagorcopyright infringment, perhaps?
13:22:29BlueChipneither of which I have done - so these are fears of what does not exist?
13:22:46Bagderjust see the samizdat book
13:23:13ZagorBlueChip: mere words weigh lightly in these matters, I'm afraid :(
13:23:49BlueChipso, i email you and say "my name is fred smith" and you just believe me right?
13:23:55LinusNyes
13:24:03Bagderif we have no reason to doubt
13:24:08BlueChipahhhh
13:24:13Bagderwhich you now have given us
13:24:15BlueChipthe get out clauses
13:24:20Zagoryou don't have to convince me about this. but I need to be able to convince some company in the future who says we've done wrong.
13:24:48BlueChipbut my dear zagor, i DO have to convince you, that is what this is all about, isn't it?
13:24:55Bagderyes
13:25:00Bagderbut if you tricked us
13:25:02Zagorand "we got this code from some guy who calls himself Bluechip" is not a very good defense.
13:25:09BlueChipi have to convince you I am not trying to stiff you by writing loads of code for you
13:25:24Zagorno. you are not a problem. our liability is.
13:25:33BlueChipthat information is easy to suppoena
13:25:36BlueChip(sp?)
13:26:13BlueChipwell, as me telling you my name is no longer good enough, what other solution can you offer?
13:26:26Bagderit is good enough
13:26:31Bagderif you tell us your real name
13:26:42Zagorwe need your real and legally binding name. it's as simple as that.
13:29:17BlueChipfor which you assure me of your absolute silence outside of a legal issue when my name will only be given where legally required and I am credited in rockbox as BlueChip, have I got the deal right?
13:29:44 Join oxygen77 [0] (~Chris@pauguste-7-82-66-87-78.fbx.proxad.net)
13:31:26HesHeh, this is an interesting discussion. These days I rather give out my real name than my email address on the Internet - the email address identifies myself more uniquely than my name (which is still relatively uncommon and the family name is protected 8-)
13:32:20BlueChipI agree, I am imminently traceable from my emails, but you need a legal suppoena to do it :)
13:32:53Hes(subpoena, i guess the sp)
13:32:59BlueChipthanks
13:34:09ZagorBlueChip: i'm afraid not. i will not accept code without a the author's name on it.
13:34:49BlueChipI am disappointed that you have retracted your earlier offer
13:35:09Zagori gave an offer?
13:35:19Bagderyou mix people up all the time BlueChip
13:35:19BlueChipindeed you did
13:35:27Bagder*I* asked you that
13:35:32Zagorthat was bagder's idea, iirc. and you never responded to it.
13:36:57BlueChipchecking logs for sanity
13:37:20BlueChipso if i don't respond immediately, the offer is implicitly retracted?
13:37:49Bagderit was a question from me if that was a working approach for you
13:38:00BagderI was not saying that I speak for the whole project
13:38:21BagderI hardly ever do
13:38:41BlueChipyep, you are, of course, right, I got my wires crossed on who, sorry
13:39:01BlueChipbeen up for 28hrs, so I'm blaming that
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13:42:01LinusNstop drinking all that tea
13:42:20BlueChipso, this is more than a legal ass-covering excercise then ...hmmm
13:43:46Zagorthis is becoming much more of a nuisance than your code is worth, to be honest.
13:44:27BlueChipplease tell me if I am wrong
13:50:25 Quit Guest02330 ("Leaving")
13:51:39Zagorwrong about what?
13:52:05LinusNabout it not only being a legal ass-covering exercise
13:54:35Zagorit's about not making rockbox a viable target for legal harrassment. the solution is spelled transparence.
13:54:41BlueChipi trust you understand that "ass-covering" is a commonturn of phrase
13:57:19LinusNi think it's spelled "transparency" :-)
13:57:28BlueChipyes, but I understood
13:57:55LinusNjust teasing zagor
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14:00
14:00:23BlueChipwell, we seem to be at an empass ...the only code you ever took of mine was the othelo code - so you might want to consider the legal ramifications of that, I will stop submitting code for rockbox, but will carry on support the community with help, devkit, toys, etc and as for this mega-audio plugin ...well it seems that Rockbox is going that way anyway, so the "fork" (which is not a fork (matrix?)) will be temporary like those
14:02:24dwihnoWhat is the english word for the grill contraption? :)
14:02:25dwihnoGrill?
14:02:37BlueChiplol
14:02:53Zagorhaha
14:02:54BlueChipI'll let you know when the searing stops - lol
14:05:24dwihnoZagor: help me out on this one :)
14:06:05Zagorare you talking about the metal device positioned atop burning coal?
14:07:15dwihnoyou bet :D
14:07:44dwihnoIt's a grill.
14:07:47dwihnoYes. It is.
14:07:51dwihnoI've decided that now.
14:07:57CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
14:07:57*dwihno is doing some translation stuff
14:08:09dwihno"Grill with lava rocks"
14:08:25Zagor"grill: A cooking surface of metal bars; a gridiron"
14:08:56dwihnoMmm. The Grid. Swamp thing. Texas cowboys.
14:09:12Zagorhow 90s of you ;)
14:10:15dwihno... combined with our grill with lava rocks ...
14:10:21dwihnowith with with with
14:10:26dwihnodoes that sound too bad?
14:10:32dwihnoI am SO 90's!
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14:11:19BlueChipyes :(
14:11:30BlueChip(to the bad? thing)
14:12:21dwihnohow should it sound then? :)
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14:13:00BlueChipwhat is combined?
14:13:08BlueChip...with it
14:13:54dwihnohigh grade meat and ingredients :)
14:13:56BlueChipI think "grill with lava rocks" is probably the problem, but I guess that the product description
14:14:04BlueChipok....
14:14:57BlueChip"This Grill with Lave rocks is the perfect companion for those fine cuts of beef"
14:15:01BlueChipLava
14:15:09dwihnoah
14:15:11dwihnosounds god
14:15:12dwihnogood
14:16:04BlueChiplinguistics in advertising is a branch of my socio-psychological studies
14:17:12BlueChipget all the good advertising trance phrases from George Carlin's "Advertising Lullabuy" for a load more classics
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14:18:10dwihnobuy buy buy? :)
14:18:20dwihnoIf you call now, you'll get an extra set for FREE! :D
14:19:25BlueChipBUY now you may find yourself wondering if you can grasp the biggest clue of all, because WHEN you call now and pay by credit card .....etc
14:20:09BlueChipthe fun stuff is the subliminals, my hompage is covered in that crap
14:22:56mattzzhiho folx
14:23:32Bagdergood day mattzz
14:23:58mattzzanybody got a time-zip laying around?
14:24:12Bagderhm, I believe dwihno sells them :-P
14:24:36mattzzhope, it's not too beta
14:24:42mattzz*duck*
14:25:12BlueChipAudio_3587 is just beta enough :)
14:26:11BlueChipI FINALLY finished it
14:38:02mattzzIs there a roadmap or a rough timeline for the next RB release(s)?
14:38:30Bagdermy suggestion: once the docs is made, we ship ;-)
14:38:45Zagorsounds good to me
14:38:56mattzzHm, when could that be?
14:39:16Bagderit'll take a while I think
14:39:16Zagordepends on how much you help with the docs :)
14:39:45mattzzI expected that answere ;-)
14:39:51mattzz-e
14:40:20mattzzand I already asked for a brandnew time-zipper
14:40:41Zagorwhen you find one, get one for me too ok?
14:41:05mattzzcould the task of documentation writing be split into chunks that are distributed to a bunch of people?
14:41:18Bagderit could indeed
14:41:20Zagorabsolutely
14:41:22mattzza todo-list would could be helpful as well
14:41:53mattzzso we could speed up the task by setting priorities
14:41:55Bagder"someone" needs to organize it
14:42:03mattzzmaybe the wiki is a starter?
14:42:20Bagderusing a wiki for it would be goodness
14:42:20LinusNand i need to fix the recording i broke when implementing the pause feature
14:42:25*mattzz heard somebody shouting "core team"
14:43:32Bagderperhaps we could have "someone" paste the existing manual into a wiki, and then through people at updating the flaws
14:43:37Bagderthrow
14:43:52BlueChipAnyone up for an MP3 that the Jukebox cannot play?
14:44:03BlueChipor rather, can only play badly
14:44:07Bagderpass it to linus, he like them! ;-)
14:44:10*Zagor looks at linus :)
14:44:17Bagderdamn it I type badly today
14:44:24Bagderalmost as bad as my voice is
14:44:40mattzzDo not shout at your keyboard!
14:45:17Bagderwhy not? I have a microsoft one
14:45:21Bagder:-)
14:46:09mattzzZagor: is there progress with a twiki installation for rockbox? docs can easily be attached and versioned there, progress/task tables are easy to do as well
14:46:30mattzzmaybe it's just a matter of tools
14:46:47Zagoryeah, i'll fix it
14:47:01mattzzIf you need help, contact me.
14:47:48Zagorok, thanks
14:48:06mattzzbrb, meeting prep.
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15:00
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15:37:10 Part oxygen77 ("Leaving")
15:41:06BlueChipWOOHOO I made PAGE 1 :)
15:41:15BlueChiplol
15:41:20BlueChipJOKING!
15:41:27Zagor:-)
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16:08:34mattzzuff
16:24:58mattzzhttp://rockbox.gratiswiki.dk/cgi-bin/gratiswiki.pl?DocumentationStatus
16:25:14mattzzit's a start at least
16:25:34Bagderyay
16:26:09mattzzuuhhhh....work!
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16:26:25BlueChipJust so it is in the IRC logs. This is a one line notice (to those who are not on the mailing list) that I have today released Audio_3587, which allows access to the advanced audio setup available to the sound chip found inside all Jukebox Recorder units ...I will not fill the log with the hype - I will let the plugin speak for itself (and it does ...speak, that is) ....It's all here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyborgsystems
16:28:07*Bagder updated DocumentationStatus
16:29:40BlueChipdid amiconn restrict the shades to 8/16/32 does anybody know?
16:29:55BlueChipit was apparently worth a 60% speed increase
16:31:33amiconnBlueChip: No, not yet. I didn't have the time to work on grayscale the last days.
16:31:48ZagorBlueChip: cute slogan "no more secrets" ;)
16:32:10BlueChiplol ... the site is covered in that stuff
16:32:31Zagorplease also note that the GPL requires you to give out source code with all binaries.
16:32:32amiconnFurthermore, the next thing to implement is full clipping support, and some consolidation
16:32:52BlueChiphello amiconn, didn't spot you off the top of my screen :)
16:33:15BlueChipno gpl means I have to make the source available
16:33:50BagderBlueChip: thus "coming soon" is breaking the gpl
16:33:57BlueChipand anyway, there's no secrets there, the source is already there but no links yet
16:34:02Bagdertechically at least
16:34:05BlueChiplol
16:34:11Bagdergee me and typing
16:34:20BlueChipi didn't even notice
16:34:26Zagori was more referring to you as a person. "no more secrets" doesn't sound like your thing. ;)
16:35:16BlueChipthe code which I have not released for klondike (for which there is a very specific reason) is not gpl, it is a discreet seperate unit to work along side a gpl program
16:35:36Bagderhehe
16:35:40Bagderthat's violating the license
16:35:55Bagderbad boy
16:35:58BlueChipZagor: Don;t you love irony? ;)
16:36:02BlueChiplol
16:36:08BlueChipdo you want the source?
16:36:18BlueChipit WILL taint you, but it IS available :P
16:36:34Bagdermake it available and I'm happy, I don't need to read it
16:37:11Bagderactually
16:37:16BlueChipwell, I don't technically need to, but be assured it is available and will be openly posted when it is fit for poor-programmer consumption
16:37:23BagderI am happy already, but not giving out the source is not nice
16:37:38BlueChipTHE SOURCE IS AVAILABLE!
16:37:43Bagderwhere?
16:38:12BlueChipdirect from the author at no cost (although I am entitled to charge anything I like) on request
16:38:45BlueChipactually, ignore that bracketed bit, that's obvious, cos my code is not GPL'd
16:38:52Bagder...and you are bound by gpl to provide code
16:39:11BlueChipIF I used your code in the making - which I didn't
16:39:12Zagordynamic linking is no different from static linking. your code is covered by the Rockbox GPL.
16:39:51BlueChipI don't think I like where this is leading
16:39:56Bagderhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLAndPlugins
16:40:13Bagderthis is rockbox
16:40:17Bagder;-)
16:42:25BlueChipcool - well, I'm not releasing shit code publicly, but public posting of code is not a requirement so that's fair enough
16:42:41BlueChipanyway, you'll get your chance to not look at it when it works properly
16:42:45BlueChip:)
16:42:48BlueChip;)
16:42:55Bagderthat's still a violation
16:43:02Bagderbut I won't stress it
16:43:02BlueChipzzzzzzz
16:43:14BlueChipwhoops, hit send too sonn
16:43:42BlueChipsoon
16:44:25BlueChipso, as this is a purely academic chat, which bit states where I have to post my source code?
16:44:43Bagderthe GPL
16:44:57BlueChipyes, the GPL, which bit?
16:45:08Bagderlemme find you a good url...
16:45:17Zagorhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AnonFTPAndSendSources
16:45:27Zagorthat faq is recommended reading
16:46:18Bagderit is paragraph 3 in the GPL
16:46:25Bagderhttp://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
16:48:07BlueChipjeezuz, i'm not listening to what people have to say on GPL again, I don't think anybody I've ever spoken to understands it - LOL
16:48:24BlueChipthis is nothing like that which I have come to believe to be true
16:48:38Bagderyou are starting to scare me
16:48:48BlueChip?
16:48:57Zagoryou should listen to the FSF, if anyone :-)
16:49:18HesLinking to GPL'ed software is considered "derivative work" by the license (as gpl-faq.html#GPLAndPlugins says), and paragraph 3 says that you must give out the source of any derivative works.
16:49:24BagderBlueChip: your talk about you understanding GPL better than us
16:49:28BlueChipI've never bothered reading it myself, boring, so I just gather information from those who speak knowledgeably on this and certain other lesser matters of life
16:49:32HesThe FSF FAQ (and the license) is very clear on this.
16:49:50BlueChipBagder: no, quite the contrary
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16:50:18BlueChipthe exact opposite, my knowledge seems fatally floured in this area
16:50:46HesI read the license when I first installed slackware with kernel 1.1.something, it seemed very obvious to me.
16:51:52BlueChipI think the point is that the source code must be supplied from anonymous ftp, so that the source is always available - my site is far from anonymous - but still interesting to consider
16:52:38BlueChipbut as you say, it's a matter of not enough time, to much chat
16:52:38Zagoranonymous ftp means the user is anonymous, not the site. http is equivalent - you don't need an account to gain access
16:52:44HesThese things are the reasons some people dislike the GPL strongly, even calling it a virus. The xBSD license are more "free".
16:53:14Zagoryes. you should not choose it without reading it carefully first...
16:53:21BlueChipI don't really care, I give out all my source anyway, but I have heard the term "copyleft" said with distain
16:53:43dwihnoI think I prefer the SockerBulle license.
16:53:54dwihnoAs long as everybody keeps socker on their bullar, I am happy :D
16:54:37BlueChiphow about, "post it and let people do whatever" license - now THAT's free speech - don't censor anybody about anything that way
16:54:37Hes"bullar"?
16:55:13dwihnoBuns :D
16:55:15dwihnoYum!
16:55:20ZagorBlueChip: yes, that's appropriate for some things. in those cases you don't use the GPL.
16:55:50BlueChipGPL is just another form of censorship
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16:55:53Zagorthe GPL is designed to ensure the code, and all modifications, remain available to the users forever.
16:55:53BagderBlueChip: that could make you liable for damages in some countries, and that's why people tend to include a disclaimer as well
16:56:04 Join lImbus [0] (~manuel@kernel.cycos.net)
16:56:30Bagder... as the MIT/X license basicly say
16:56:46Zagorif that is contrary to your goals, i supposed you may feel censored by it...
16:57:06BlueChipit will contrary to someones goal, so it has to be :)
16:57:26Zagoryes, but those people didn't write the code. :)
16:58:02BlueChipno those imposing censorship normally wrote the code
16:58:19Bagderwhy is GPL censorship in this case?
16:58:32Zagorcensorship is in "you may not hide the source"?
16:58:37Zagors/is/as/
16:58:55Zagorsounds a bit backwards to me :)
16:59:09BlueChipEXAMPLE: My choice to delay the release of my code until it is stable and useable, is under attack by a person waving the "gpl" flag
16:59:26Bagderand that is censorship?
16:59:43BagderI need to get a better vocabulary, my says the reversed thing
16:59:46BlueChipit stops me from living my life the way I feel is most beneficial to me and those I care about, so yes
16:59:48Zagorbut you already distribute it!
17:00
17:00:02Zagoreverything except the source code
17:00:06BagderBlueChip: so then don't distribute it, no one forces you to
17:00:12BlueChipmy code for klondike, technically yes, but nobody wants it anyway
17:00:14Zagorit can't be *that* unstable then, can it?
17:00:34Zagorso post a huge warning about it
17:00:51Zagorit's not like adhering to the gpl is a lot of work
17:01:00HesThat's not censorship. It's your choise whether you distribute your code. If you don't distribute it because you dislike it, that's healthy self-censorship 8-)
17:01:08BlueChipfew things in life are about how much work is involved
17:01:25BlueChipLOL - touché
17:01:49BlueChipi gotta get a drink...
17:01:50Bagder:-)
17:04:12Bagderthese objections are about as old as the GPL is
17:05:13Hesyes, very deeply discussed elsewhere. It's good we've got a lot of good licences that we don't have to write our own any more (just need to read a few, which is much easier).
17:05:39BlueChiptoo right, no point in making something up when a winning argument already exsits - there's a reason they've been around for years ;)
17:05:40Bagderamen
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17:21:20 Part Bagder
17:25:00mattzzgotty leave, see you later
17:25:16mattzzgotta...go
17:25:18 Quit mattzz ("CGI:IRC 0.5.4 (2004/01/29)")
17:43:31BlueChipelinenbe: where is the mp3cut plugin to be found?
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17:46:44Zagori'm off for today. see you guys.
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17:46:53BlueChipl8rz dude, peace
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18:59:32mattzzre hi
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19:00:45BlueChiphi
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19:43:33Brian1Hi all
19:46:12mattzzhi
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21:14:50mattzzDammit, my batteries are emtpy and I cant get rockbox into charge mode again. Any ideas?
21:17:14amiconnmattzz: Perhaps charge them externally?
21:18:20mattzzamiconn: I have no charger
21:19:05mattzzMaybe I can find an old NiCd charger, dont know if thats a good idea....
21:20:03amiconnmattzz: You could charge even with an old NiCd charger, IF you charge only a short time (barely enough to get rockbox running again)
21:20:05lImbusmattzz: have you got other batteries ?
21:20:28mattzzI could use the ones from my siemens gigaset ;-)
21:20:56mattzzso charging 2 by 2 should do the trick
21:20:58lImbusyou can change 2 batteries. that should be enough to get where you want to
21:21:34lImbusyup
21:21:34mattzzargh.
21:21:58amiconnlImbus, mattzz: _Never_ put different battery cells in series, especially not rechargeable ones
21:22:11lImbusaha ?
21:22:26mattzzmaybe I should just plug the other end of the charger into the power outlet....
21:22:40*mattzz is sooooo stupid
21:22:46amiconnOoops ;-)
21:22:48lImbusmhmm, that sounds good.
21:23:23lImbusamiconn: why not mix batteries for a short time ?
21:24:00*mattzz will doublecheck both ends of the charger next time.
21:24:09amiconnlImbus: For a short time this may be ok, but remember that mattzz wanted to get rockbox starting in order to charge them.
21:24:27amiconnThis is definitely not a good idea with different cells in series.
21:25:54amiconnThe less rated and/or more charged cells may get overcharged and damaged as the charger may not detect that they are fully charged
21:26:28lImbusmhm. aha. good to now. sounds logical at least.
21:28:45amiconnThe same thing may happen while discharging: The less rated and/or more discharged cells become empty earlier, and may get damaged by reverse polarization (?)
21:36:16lImbusbefore I throw that idea away: if mattzz had the same batteries in his gigaset, he could try it ?
21:37:16amiconnI wouldn't even do that, since the charge state (?) may be different.
21:37:57amiconnWhat I would've done in this case: Put the first 2 batteries into the gigaset, charge them fully
21:38:20amiconn(2) Put the second two into the gigaset, charge them fully
21:38:29lImbusyeah, of course
21:38:48lImbuseven if NiCd and NiMH mixed ?
21:39:32amiconnThey wouldn't be mixed in this case, since the Gigaset runs from 2 AA NiCd/NiMH cells (I happen to own one too)
21:39:55lImbusI mean charger type mixed to battery type
21:40:56amiconn(1) The gigaset charger can charge both types, since a NiMH charger can _always_ be used as a NiCd charger
21:41:11lImbusaha
21:41:22lImbusmhmm. so no way to charge one single battery in a proper manner ? every charger I know only charges in pairs. aren't there a lot of devices having only ONE battery ?
21:42:21amiconn(but not vice versa: The basic charging sequences of NiCd and NiMH cells are the same, but the NiMH variety is more sensitive)
21:43:06amiconnlImbus: There is a way to charge single cells properly - buy a decent charger. Mine does charge every cell separately
21:44:44amiconnI would never use these cheap charge-in-pairs chargers, since the money saved on that charger would be over-compensated later by the early need of new cells
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21:49:14amiconnlImbus: Btw, I don't have any device that runs from a single battery (except some wall/alarm clocks, but these aren't usually run from rechargeables)
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23:05:49Zagorhi guys
23:06:12Bagderevening
23:06:29Bagderaint adsl fine? ;-)
23:06:50scott666_hey Zagor and Bagder
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23:07:07ZagorBagder: hehe
23:07:47*Bagder reads the latest tanenbaun rebuttal
23:08:07scott666the rebuttal to the rebutal to the rebuttal?
23:08:14Bagderyes
23:13:58lImbusamiconn anyway: tnx for that enlightenment, i was somehow afk :-/
23:16:04lImbusok guys, if off for today. am gettin hungry :-)
23:16:14Bagderenjoy your food!
23:16:26lImbuss/if/i'm
23:16:34lImbuscertainly I will. mcdonalds
23:16:50lImbusbut thanks anyway ;-)
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