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#rockbox log for 2004-06-23

00:00:00lImbusargl. tab kills me
00:00:03lImbushi LinusN
00:00:56LinusNyo d00dz
00:01:20Bagderhi Linus
00:02:05lImbusseems to be getth0-slang-day. (kills grep, lol)
00:05:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:07:20LinusNgotta fly, cu around
00:07:23 Part LinusN
00:07:35 Quit Bagder ("Leaving")
00:22:43 Quit AciD (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:53:41 Quit elinenbe (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!")
00:58:11 Join wake [0] (~wake@69.158.5.133)
01:00
01:20:46 Quit midk|gone (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:20:52 Join midk|gone [0] (~Zakk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
01:22:08 Part amiconn
01:26:04 Quit lImbus ()
01:40:27 Quit mecraw ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
02:00
02:05:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:12:12 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
02:36:12 Join Strath [0] (~mike@dgvlwinas01pool0-a254.wi.tds.net)
03:00
03:02:52 Join potto [0] (potto@die.painfully.org)
03:03:03pottoyo, anyone around ?
03:03:09BlueChip:)
03:03:48pottoBlueChip; does having my FM Recorder in USB mode charge the batteries ?
03:04:03BlueChipyes, but not well enough to run it
03:04:12pottok
03:04:28pottoalso very ocasionally mid song the player will stop playing, and the hard drive light will stay on
03:04:33pottoonly way to fix is to reboot the player
03:04:42BlueChipwhat version of rockbox do you run?
03:04:42pottowhat could that be ?
03:05:06potto2.2
03:05:40BlueChipgrab a recent build :) ...you could try my enhanced audio build if you like
03:06:04pottok
03:06:11pottoalso, any recommendations on headphones ?
03:06:29BlueChipseems koss porta pro are getting rave reviews on the ml
03:07:23pottohaha, k great
03:07:26pottosorry 20 questions now over :))
03:07:41BlueChipwish they were all that simple
03:07:47BlueChip;)
03:46:24 Quit wake ("leaving")
03:48:11 Join Nibbler [0] (nibbler@port-212-202-73-96.dynamic.qsc.de)
03:53:11 Part BlueChip
04:00
04:06:00***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:15:26 Quit hardeep ("[BX] Time wasted: all of it")
05:00
05:18:10 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
05:18:26 Quit Strath ("Client closed")
06:00
06:06:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:48:30 Join elinenbe [0] (trilluser@207-237-224-177.c3-0.nyr-ubr1.nyr.ny.cable.rcn.com)
06:59:58 Join LinusN [200] (~linus@labb.contactor.se)
07:00
07:02:11 Join Nibbler [0] (nibbler@port-212-202-73-96.dynamic.qsc.de)
07:27:04 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
07:37:20 Join midk [0] (Zakk@c-67-160-88-198.client.comcast.net)
07:37:54midkhi all
07:38:00midksite down?
07:38:05midkoh nm :)
07:51:32LinusNbrain down? :-)
07:52:17midkheh, almost :D
08:00
08:00:23 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD9E346FB.dip.t-dialin.net)
08:00:29midkhi idc
08:00:34[IDC]Dragonhi
08:06:07***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
08:08:31 Join Bagder [241] (~dast@labb.contactor.se)
08:11:40midkhi bagder
08:11:41midki mean
08:11:45midkhi captain bagder
08:11:46Bagder'ello
08:11:55midknot that linus is no longer a captain ;)
08:15:39LinusNthe thing is that Bagder isn't a captain :-)
08:16:11Bagderthe harsh reality
08:17:23[IDC]Dragonmay I ask a technical question?
08:17:50Bagderabout ships? ;-)
08:18:06[IDC]Dragonalmost...
08:18:21[IDC]Dragonshipped boxes maybe
08:18:28[IDC]Dragonshipped software
08:18:35[IDC]Dragonhow do I force a directory reload (after changing sort options)
08:19:22midklol.. ok, linus remains the only captain
08:19:24midkwell of course for me
08:19:27[IDC]Dragonsomehow the F2 screen does that, although not explicitely programmed there
08:19:28midkbut that goes without saying
08:20:58LinusNmany functions return a bool telling if we have been in USB mode or not
08:21:21LinusNwe often force a reload by returning true
08:21:29[IDC]Dragonah, great
08:22:44[IDC]Dragonbut the F2 screen returns false...
08:28:44LinusNwhich file are you editing here?
08:29:49 Join AciD` [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net)
08:30:15[IDC]Dragonnot editing, but looking at screens.c, quick_screen()
08:30:48[IDC]Dragonah, found it
08:30:57[IDC]Dragonit's done in tree.c
08:31:03LinusNin tree.c, you set reload_dir = true to force a reload
08:31:24dwihno*yawn*
08:31:26dwihnoAnother day!
08:31:40[IDC]Dragondirbrowse() caches global_settings.sort_case and checks if it changed
08:32:53[IDC]DragonI either add my sort options to that caching, or work with reload_dir
08:33:45LinusN...or invent a more clean way of signalling the need to reload
08:34:33LinusNbut i guess adding the sort options is the easiest/best way for now
08:38:39[IDC]Dragonjust found a neat little function called reload_directory(), to just set that flag
08:38:46 Quit AciD` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
08:39:51*LinusN hasn't been in tree.c for qute some time
08:43:40[IDC]Dragonit's kind of duplicate ways there
08:44:03midkyay i updated the pong doc
08:44:34Bagderyou played it on your archos?
08:44:51midkyes, i wish the paddles moved faster..
08:45:00[IDC]Dragonso do I
08:45:04midki ran into the same trouble with breakout... still have that problem
08:45:08Bagderthat's easily fixed
08:45:14midklinus did you ever look at that button repeat speed function?
08:45:15Bagderhow's the speed of the ball?
08:45:24[IDC]Dragonmaybe a kind of accelleration would help
08:45:29Bagderyes
08:45:30[IDC]Dragonball is OK
08:45:33midkthe ball ii think is ok
08:45:39Bagderbut tricky to accelerate since all keys can be pressed at once
08:45:46LinusNmidk: i had a look at it and realized that it wasn't all that simple
08:46:12LinusN(but i can't remember why...)
08:47:15Bagdershould the pads move twice as fast?
08:47:19midkeven faster
08:47:29Bagderoh
08:47:35midki';ve tried moving paddles +=2 and even up to +=4
08:47:39*Bagder considers actually truing this on target
08:47:41[IDC]Dragonno, twice should be OK
08:47:46midkit's still just as slow.. just jumpier :)
08:48:25Bagder?
08:48:34Bagderthey move faster and jumpier then
08:48:40[IDC]Dragondidn't we want to give access to the raw button reading?
08:49:24LinusNi think we settled for that, yes...
08:49:32*LinusN is starting to remember
08:49:51midkBagder: yes, but it seems just as slow
08:50:01[IDC]Dragonthe captain had too much rum...
08:50:17Mode"#rockbox +o LinusN " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
08:50:22[IDC]Dragonoops
08:50:23midkyay
08:50:26midktopic change?
08:50:29[IDC]Dragonhe's gonna kick me
08:50:36midknoo topic change
08:50:40LinusNmidk: why midk|gone?
08:50:46 Nick midk is now known as midk|here (Zakk@c-67-160-88-198.client.comcast.net)
08:51:03midk|heremidk|gone is other pc
08:51:12Kick(#rockbox midk|gone :LinusN) by LinusN!~linus@labb.contactor.se
08:51:12 Join midk|gone [0] (~Zakk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
08:51:19LinusNwtf
08:51:27midk|hereit's probably on auto connect
08:51:27LinusNcome on, midk
08:51:29midk|hereyou can ban it if you want
08:51:31midk|herego ahead
08:51:37midk|herei'll leave the room next time
08:51:47midk|hereauto rejoin*
08:57:07LinusNnm
08:58:11midk|heresorry
08:58:15midk|herewon't happen again
09:00
09:01:17 Quit midk|gone (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
09:01:22 Join midk|gone [0] (~Zakk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
09:01:53midk|hereoo?
09:03:11 Quit adi|home (Client Quit)
09:06:21 Join Nibbler [0] (nibbler@port-212-202-73-96.dynamic.qsc.de)
09:08:50 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
09:08:55Zagoraloha
09:09:04midk|herehi zagor.
09:52:06 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
09:53:58midk|herenite
09:54:05 Nick midk|here is now known as midk|here|sleep (Zakk@c-67-160-88-198.client.comcast.net)
09:54:06*Bagder waves to midk
09:54:07midk|here|sleeplol
09:54:14midk|here|sleepsorry about midk|gone
09:54:21midk|here|sleephe won't be here any more after... tomorrow
10:00
10:00:29Bagderspam spam spam
10:00:32Bagderbaked beans
10:00:35Bagderand spam
10:01:27Bagderdid anyone else notice a spam increase durine june 9 to about june 15?
10:01:33Bagderduring
10:02:12[IDC]Dragonthey try to sell me university degrees every day
10:02:45BagderOn June 14th, I got 3900 spams
10:03:07[IDC]Dragonon one day?
10:03:15Bagderon june 15th, I got 5250 virus emails
10:03:18Bagderin one day
10:03:20*Zagor doesn't keep statistics, and never checks the spam box
10:03:38[IDC]Dragongeez, what orders of magnitude are that?
10:03:41Zagorsurvival of the fittest :)
10:03:52[IDC]DragonI get a few per day
10:03:54BagderI usually get like 300 spams/day
10:04:04[IDC]Dragonthis is sick
10:04:23ZagorSPF would be nice
10:04:38Zagorunfortunately, I think it will be universally adopted just after IPv6
10:05:02Bagder... which will take a long time still
10:06:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:07:08[IDC]DragonZagor: you've just checked in a very outdated settings.c ?
10:07:18Zagor??
10:07:48Zagori don't see a cvs mail for it
10:08:19[IDC]Dragonoops, sorry
10:08:27Zagorwrong repository?
10:08:32[IDC]Dragon(my scroll error)
10:08:36Zagorah
10:11:11BagderZagor: you still have your usb cable here at work?
10:13:10Zagorno
10:13:21Bagderok
10:23:08Bagderfreshmeat improved the other day
10:24:36Zagorin what way?
10:24:53Bagderthe page showing info about a single project
10:25:03Bagderincludes much more info in a nicer way now
10:25:14Bagderlike "Users who subscribed to this project also subscribed to:"
10:25:17Bagderetc
10:25:22Zagornice
10:27:10LinusNBagder: i have my usb cable here
10:27:20Bagderok
10:27:24Bagderneat
10:27:31LinusNtime to replace my PC fan
10:27:36LinusNcu in a while
10:27:38 Part LinusN
10:29:04Bagderbrb
10:29:06 Part Bagder
10:29:23 Join Bagder [241] (~dast@labb.contactor.se)
10:30:41[IDC]Dragonthe daily build page looks nice, all green
10:30:58*Bagder cheers
10:31:26[IDC]Dragonbut we had plenty of bugs, not shown there ;-)
10:31:33Bagderhehe
10:31:51Bagder"Totally 163 bugs (23 marked as fixed, 127 open and 13 bad)"
10:32:10[IDC]Dragonoh dear
10:32:38[IDC]Dragonmost are outdated I guess
10:32:42Bagderyes
10:32:52[IDC]Dragonwe're just too lazy to work though there
10:33:17Zagora lot of those bugs are duplicates and unreproducibles
10:33:21[IDC]Dragonsomehow bugs reported to the group are more likely to get fixed
10:33:38Zagorwe should have a bug secretary
10:34:16Bagdera bug master
10:34:20Bagderlord of the flies!
10:34:21dwihnoLord of the bugs?
10:34:23dwihnoHaha
10:34:56Bagderthat would be Golding ;-)
10:36:38 Join LinusN [200] (~linus@labb.contactor.se)
10:36:43dwihnoHow are you guys reading RSS feeds?
10:36:53*Bagder isn't
10:36:56Bagder:-)
10:37:04Bagderonly at www.haxx.se/home/
10:37:04Zagorwell we do on /home/
10:37:07LinusNme neither
10:37:12dwihnoDotHome platform? :)
10:37:24Bagder /home/ sweet /home/
10:37:26*[IDC]Dragon closed 2 patches about dir sorting
10:37:39Bagderclosing is Goodness
10:37:43Zagortry it, you'll like it. all geek rss on one web page
10:38:36Zagorinsanely configurable :)
10:38:51[IDC]Dragonlike Rockbox?
10:38:57 Join AciD` [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net)
10:39:49dwihnoZagor: Yum. RSS.
10:40:48Zagor[IDC]Dragon: like rockbox in c0uttas wet dreams ;)
10:43:00[IDC]Dragonbtw, how's he doing?
10:43:51[IDC]Dragonc0utta: sleeping?
10:44:57BagderRockbox has now passed 70000 lines of code
10:45:01Bagdercounting only firmware and apps
10:45:20Bagder2116940 bytes
10:45:25Zagorthat's quite compact, actually
10:46:25[IDC]Dragonnew settings code made it smaller ;-)
10:46:27Bagder30 bytes per line in average
10:46:29Bagder:-)
10:49:45 Join amiconn [0] (~jens@pD95D1F0F.dip.t-dialin.net)
10:49:55amiconnhi all
10:50:03Bagdercurl is only 51000 lines of code
10:50:17Bagderhi jens
10:51:14amiconnBagder: As I've redone the VoiceFile page in the wiki, you can now delete the old http://rockbox.haxx.se/Voice/ folder, or at least the large binary files within
10:51:28Bagderyes, I'll do that
10:51:52Bagdernice work btw
10:53:27[IDC]Dragonare binaries in twiki version-controlled?
10:53:51[IDC]Dragon(would be large then)
10:54:02Bagderwe have lots of space ;-)
10:54:23Bagder>12GB free atm
10:55:48amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Yes, they are
10:59:14Zagori'd prefer we store the files unzipped, personally
10:59:31[IDC]Dragongotta relocate
10:59:34 Quit [IDC]Dragon ()
11:00
11:01:16amiconnZagor: The reason why I zipped the files is that within the zip files, they are all called "english.voice" or "deutsch.voice", in order to be able to unzip them and directly be able to use them.
11:03:31Zagorah, good point
11:16:17 Nick Zagor is now known as Zagor|lunch (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
11:24:18 Join Nibbler [0] (nibbler@port-212-202-73-96.dynamic.qsc.de)
12:00
12:02:52 Quit AciD` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:02:52 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
12:06:13***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:10:57 Join lImbus [0] (~manuel@kernel.cycos.net)
12:38:48c0uttawet dream. what a sick bunch!
12:39:17 Nick Zagor|lunch is now known as Zagor (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
12:39:21Zagor;-)
12:40:32 Nick c0utta is now known as c0utta{dinner} (~c0utta@47.cust4.sa.dsl.ozemail.com.au)
13:00
13:05:11 Join AciD` [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net)
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13:29:09Zagoranyone with a player here?
13:30:16LinusNme?
13:30:46Zagorplayer-and-recorder-and-v2-and-fm doesn't count ;)
13:34:43 Join Nibbler [0] (nibbler@port-212-202-73-96.dynamic.qsc.de)
13:42:20 Quit potto ()
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14:00
14:04:01 Nick c0utta{dinner} is now known as c0utta{zZ} (~c0utta@47.cust4.sa.dsl.ozemail.com.au)
14:06:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:12:48 Join ka [0] (~tkirk@65.216.194.2)
14:14:42amiconnBagder: Usually, the names of the committers on the front page get mangled to not show the nicknames, but the (real) first name. However, this is not the case for "kjer". Is this intentional?
14:15:25Bagderno
14:16:09*Bagder fixes
14:16:42Bagderthere's a list userid => first name, in the script
14:43:26 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
14:49:30 Quit lImbus (Remote closed the connection)
14:49:46 Join lImbus [0] (~manuel@kernel.cycos.net)
14:52:15Zagorquick poll: percent or dB in the status bar?
14:52:24Bagderpercent
14:52:27LinusNdB
14:52:35Bagderactually
14:52:39Bagderthat could be an option
14:52:51*LinusN slaps Bagder
14:52:56BagderI'm serious
14:53:01*LinusN slaps Bagder again
14:53:10Bagder /kick LinusN
14:53:14Bagderoops
14:53:16Bagder;-)
14:53:17*Zagor curses flexlm and goes to reboot the server *again*
14:53:44Bagderisn't dB a relative scale?
14:53:53LinusNmy upcoming commit changes the volume unit to dB
14:54:11LinusNhowever, the status bar is somewhat special
14:54:46LinusNthe new volume range will be -115 - +12dB
14:55:01LinusN0dB is "Line" level
14:55:03Bagderusers will find that very odd I'm sure
14:56:20Zagorwhat is really odd is the "volume" menu item, where the screen shows dB and the status bar %... :-)
14:56:43ZagorI think I'm siding with bagder for an option
14:57:25LinusNvolume unit: dB/% ?
14:57:31Zagoryeah
14:57:49LinusNit will be dB in the cfg file in any case
14:57:58Zagorthat's fine
15:00
15:04:22 Part julia ("Leaving")
15:06:19LinusNmax volume will be 112%, btw
15:06:46LinusN100% is line level (0dB)
15:07:01LinusNany volume above that may cause clipping
15:07:23Bagder115 ?
15:07:51LinusN112 is very convenient
15:08:11Bagder-115 to 0 db makes 0 to 112 ?
15:08:14Bagderthat sounds weird
15:08:26LinusN-115 - +12dB
15:08:31Bagderyes
15:08:48Bagderso why not 127%?
15:09:01LinusNbecause 100% is 0dB
15:09:18Bagderand what is 0%?
15:09:41LinusN0% is either -115dB or -100dB, haven't decided yet
15:09:46Zagorit's not perfect at the low range. but anything below 30-40% is inaudible anyway...
15:10:01BagderI don't get it
15:10:11Bagderif you are to change it, why not allow the full scale?
15:10:21Bagderthen -115 db is 0 %
15:10:30Bagderand 127% is 12db
15:10:31LinusNfor easier dB<->% conversion, i might settle with -100dB - +12dB
15:10:37Zagorwe want 0% to be silent but 100% to be 0dB
15:10:45Bagderwhy?
15:10:49Zagorhow do we scale 100-127 in 12 steps?
15:11:03Bagderwhy would we?
15:11:16LinusNfor easier conversion
15:11:24Zagorwhy we want 100% to be 0dB?
15:11:34Bagderyes why is that important?
15:11:42Zagorbecause 0dB is line level == no conversion
15:11:59Zagor100% of the sound, no modification
15:12:00Bagderand that is important to be 100%?
15:12:18Zagorit feels natural, I think
15:12:27BagderI'm not saying it can't be this way, I just think you're doing it more complicated than it needs to be
15:12:27LinusNeverything above 0dB may cause clipping
15:12:47Bagderyes, and that's why a dB display can be useful
15:12:50LinusNso it feels natural to say that anything above 100% may cause clipping
15:12:53Bagderthe percentage guys don't think in dB
15:13:25Zagorthey don't have to. just know that 100% is full volume. you can crank it above, but it's above spec and may distort
15:13:35LinusNand it's convenient to map the dB and % steps in even steps
15:13:45BagderI "know" its 100% because you say so
15:13:50Bagderit could be 110% for all I care
15:14:02BagderLinusN: yes, but then -115 would be 0
15:14:07Bagder0%
15:14:09Zagorit's much more intuitive that 100% is full volume
15:14:15Bagderbut it isn't
15:14:19Bagderyou can go beyond
15:14:19Zagoryes it is
15:14:49Zagorthen you are amplifying the sound == creating more sound than the input data has == >100%
15:15:07LinusNi think percentages >100 is a clear signal that you are above limits
15:15:23BagderI understand your reasoning, I just don't think that logic is worth much effort to keep
15:15:43Zagorwhat volume do you use in your car?
15:15:59Zagorwouldn't you like to know which level is the max level without risk for clipping?
15:16:04BagderI have an analog knob, I have no clue ;-)
15:16:17Zagori mean on your archos, when you connect it to the car
15:16:41Bagderso how have all the people managed until today?
15:17:10Bagderthey do, because not very many people go beyond 92
15:17:11LinusNthey have discussed it over and over in the forums, and either guessed the levels or asked the developers
15:17:12Zagorthey haven't gotten less than the best sound
15:17:26Zagoruh, they *have* less than the best
15:17:52Bagderand all of a sudden they will stop that because the display says >100% ?
15:18:18LinusNthe sad part of the story is that you still get clipping if you crank the bass/treble/loudness settings
15:18:27Zagoryes, I think people will not go beyond 100% if they want distortion-free sound
15:18:39BagderLinusN: and that is an argument for not trying what you're trying to... :-)
15:19:12Zagorevery little helps. 100% is a vastly better level than 92% (and some)
15:19:51LinusNi think a dB scale helps those who care, and doesn't make it any more complicated for the "average" user
15:20:12Zagori think they are two separate issues which shouldn't be mixed
15:20:14Bagderthat's why I say a dB option is good
15:20:55LinusNmy point is that the displayed value is of little use for the average user, be it percent or dB
15:21:07LinusNif it sounds too hig, lower it
15:21:24BagderI agree
15:21:34Bagderand that's why I believe 100% won't be a magic border to people
15:21:48LinusNso i don't think a percent option is necessary
15:21:58BagderI do
15:22:12Bagderwell, not "necessary" perhaps
15:22:16Zagorit's not a magic border. but if you are connecting your archos to the stereo, which output level do you naturally choose? 92, 100 or 115 percent?
15:22:30LinusNi choose 0dB :-)
15:22:30Bagderthe one that sounds fine with no clipping
15:22:44ZagorBagder: so you listen through your entire collection at each level?
15:22:53Bagderno, I change as I go along
15:23:00Bagderstarting with the lowest
15:23:01Zagor...while recording a cd?
15:23:09BagderI think most people do that
15:23:21Zagori think most people would like to not have to
15:23:33Bagderthey still have to
15:23:35Zagorno
15:23:41Bagderwhy are some people using >92 today?
15:23:47LinusNi think a dB scale is only mildly confusing for the "average" user, not very hard to accept
15:24:00Zagorbecause they value sound pressure over sound quality
15:24:12Bagderyes, and these guys will then use >100% tomorrow
15:24:31Zagorexactly. but the other 98% who wants the real line level will use 100%
15:24:31LinusNbut then they know that they are pushing the limit
15:25:01Bagderthere aren't that many that use rockbox at 92 today
15:25:21Zagoryou keep making my point. they would if they knew 92 was the magic number!
15:25:31LinusNbagder: based on your scientific research?
15:25:45BagderLinusN: based on BC's research
15:25:50Bagderyou forgotten?
15:25:58Bagderagain
15:26:03BagderI don't mind if you do this
15:26:03LinusNdidn't follow that thread
15:26:21BagderI only think you believe people think like you, and I don't
15:26:32LinusNthere is a need to know the line level
15:26:43Zagorit's a question of not having to think
15:27:01Bagder100% is not "naturally" the line level
15:27:07Bagderit isn't today for example
15:27:14LinusNthe dB scale communicates this very clearly imho
15:27:22Bagderyes I agree
15:27:35Zagoryes it is. line level is the unmodified sound pressure, what's on the record. 100% sound level.
15:27:58Bagderonly if you know what you can crank it up beyond 100%
15:28:03LinusNBagder: 100% being +12dB was a bad thing of us to do in the first place
15:28:04BagderI would believe 100% to be maximum
15:28:04Zagornot at all
15:28:12Zagorit is
15:28:17Bagderno
15:28:21Bagder112 is
15:28:34Zagorwhat is the length of a rope?
15:28:34LinusNit's the *maximum without clipping*
15:28:50LinusNor rather "risk of clipping"
15:28:51Bagderyou only read what you want to read from me
15:28:55BagderI'll stop
15:29:15LinusNBagder: i see your point
15:29:16Bagdermax == the highest possible value
15:29:54LinusNthe dB scale would solve this issue
15:30:19BagderdB will occupy a lot more space in the status bar
15:30:30Zagorso you think the magic number 92 is the optimal solution?
15:30:43Bagderno, the magic number... 115
15:30:45LinusNBagder: not if we limit it to -99 - 12
15:30:54BagderLinusN: true
15:30:57LinusN115?
15:30:59Bagderand I guess -99 is silent enough
15:31:18LinusNindeed
15:31:28Bagder-115dB would be 0%, 0dB would be 115%, 12dB would be 127%
15:31:36Bagderbut again
15:31:43BagderI don't feel strongly about that particular stuff
15:32:00BagderI just don't think 100% is "naturally" 0dB
15:32:18LinusNi do
15:32:44Bagderyes, you keep saying that ;-)
15:33:02LinusNdo you people still think a dB scale would upset/confuse Joe User?
15:33:09Bagderso then, go with plain dB instead
15:33:32ZagorLinusN: yes I do
15:33:38BagderLinusN: it will probably confuse Joe a bit, but not a lot
15:33:48Zagorit runs opposite to what a novice user expects
15:34:08Bagderexactly
15:34:18LinusNstill, does the displayed value matter?
15:34:32LinusNit's the perceived volume that counts
15:34:33BagderLinusN: you said so when you claim 100% is important ;-)
15:34:55Zagorif it doesn't matter, why do we display it? ;)
15:34:57*Bagder hides
15:34:59Bagdergotta go
15:35:03 Part Bagder
15:35:15LinusNZagor: because 0dB is the "magic" limit
15:35:29LinusNanything else is just relative
15:35:42Zagorthe number is important because sometimes you want to adjust to an approximate level without hearing the sound
15:36:20LinusNyes, but that level is just a memorized level anyway
15:37:08LinusNbe it 70% or -30dB
15:37:24Zagorface it, dB is for sound geeks. the rest of the world uses positive integers. :)
15:37:37LinusN:-)
15:38:43LinusNpercent is a quite silly unit anyway
15:39:17LinusNin rockbox, it's just % of allowed register range, has nothing to do with sound pressure
15:39:45Zagorit's % of what the device can do. just like 1-10 on an amplifier.
15:39:48LinusNit's not like 50% is half the volume
15:40:17LinusNso we could just as well have the range 0-127
15:40:30Zagorthat's because sound pressure is a complex subject with great variations
15:40:32LinusNand skip the percent
15:40:54Zagoryeah, that'd be fun for programmers and silly for everybody else
15:41:23LinusNwhy? the max volume is different on each and every device out there
15:41:34LinusNon some, it's 10, on others it's 15
15:41:39Zagornot at all. every device in existence has a "max"
15:41:40LinusNor 25
15:41:58LinusNyes, but i think percent is unnecessary
15:42:09Zagoror will you go out and draw "0-127" in crayon on everybodies archoses?
15:42:50LinusNthe original firmware has no % unit afaicr
15:42:56Zagorof course it's unnecessary. but it's a simple and intuitive scale. everybody knows how it works. using arbitrary scales for everything just makes it more complex.
15:43:45LinusNthe simpleness and intuitiveness ends when we introduce >100% levels
15:44:24Zagorwe lose a little but we also gain a little
15:44:49LinusNi think the average user won't have any problems with the dB scale
15:45:20ZagorI think we shouldn't change established concepts "just because"
15:46:15LinusNand you think the dB scale is "just because"?
15:47:02Zagorit's only motivation is due to an internal restructure of the code. is that a good argument to change the user interface? methinks not.
15:47:22LinusNjoe user won't care what the display says, he will listen and select the level
15:47:40LinusNand the "audio geek" will see what the line level is
15:48:06Zagoraccording to your scientific research? ;)
15:48:14LinusNabsolutely! :-)
15:48:28Zagornow go add the option :)
15:50:07*LinusN somehow lost the interest, that'll wait until another day
15:50:15LinusNgotta fly, cu l8r
15:50:18 Part LinusN
15:50:19Zagorbye
15:54:41Zagorthat was a long argument with no result :)
16:00
16:06:16***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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16:37:28lImbusZagor: I am currently reading the log as I am back from meeting, and I want to give an answer to the question why some people would go over 0db (aka 92%)
16:38:28lImbusIn my car, nobody know why, 0db (or 92% ) is still less louder than if I switch back to cd or radio on my car radio.
16:39:32lImbusso I go over to 95 or even 100% to not have to screw up the volume on my radio so high it kills me switching back to radio/cd.
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16:53:36*pfavr wonder if anyone saw my blob about volume settings?
16:54:06Zagori did, but we were only three people in that split
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16:55:43pfavrZagor, but what do you think - does it sound stupid?
16:56:09Zagoryes :) adding ever more options is not the way forward. a db/% option is bad enough.
16:56:44pfavr:-) thought so.
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17:00
17:00:10lImbusZagor: did you answer to my statement ? I'm not sure If there is QoS during NSplits
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17:02:42lImbuslol
17:02:42Zagori think i'll start connecting to fixed IPs :(
17:02:42Zagor<Zagor> yeah, I agree there are times when you want to go above 0dB. but I still think 100% corresponds more naturally to 0dB than 92%
17:03:56lImbusof course. I would more 'understand' what I do when I go up to 112%
17:04:54lImbusanybody else who doesn't care about clipping, the actual meaning of 0db and so on does not care anyway.
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17:18:20Bagder'cvs diff -u | patch -R'
17:18:35Bagdercomes handy
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17:23:49Zagor:)
17:24:12ZagoriSheep, is that the new entertainment device from Apple? ;)
17:24:46Zagorspecial made for the australian and irish markets ;-P
17:25:20Bagdertransparant blue sheep
17:25:29iSheepthat's it ;-)
17:25:44iSheepSheep for the Mac crowd
17:25:47Bagderhehe
17:28:21iSheepHey... I have a Rockbox question. Whenever I try to use a plugin, I get the "Incompatible Version" error
17:28:47Zagoryour plugins don't match your core firmware
17:29:14Zagorunzip the whole release file to your archos drive
17:30:22iSheepokay, all done. now retry?
17:30:32Zagorare you running flashed?
17:30:36 Quit Bagder ("Leaving")
17:30:49iSheepI *have* flashed, if that's what you mean
17:31:12Zagoryes. then you first run ajbrec.ajz, and then flash the new rockbox.ucl
17:31:46iSheepso now, on the Archos, select ajbrec.ajz and hit Play?
17:31:53Zagoryes
17:32:01Zagorthen select rockbox.ucl and hit play
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17:32:53iSheephmm.. is that in the root directory? I don't see it
17:33:02Zagorit's in .rockbox
17:33:09iSheepoh ok
17:33:46iSheepokay, it just said "Verify OK" after I ran that
17:34:14iSheepand that fixed it. :-) thanks for the help
17:34:26Zagoryou're welcome
17:35:29amiconnZagor: Imho the volume scale should simply be changed to dB. The treble/bass control already used it, and, as mentioned before, many home stereo devices use it as well (even some which are >10 years old)
17:35:36iSheepAlso.. I've noticed a problem where sometimes when I'm pressing the up or down arrow, the Archos will think I hit the Play button. is there anything I can do about this?
17:36:25 Quit ka ("Leaving")
17:37:16Zagorwe had a discussion about that the other day. i suspect that is due to mechanical pressure, while some think it can be due to inaccurate button reading in the code.
17:37:29Zagordo you get it often? i.e. is it hard to repeat the problem?
17:38:05Zagoramiconn: i'm hesitant. maybe you're right.
17:38:08iSheepwell... it's definitely random
17:38:28iSheep:-) happens at inopportune times
17:38:47iSheepBut I'd say I could get it to happen again, basically by pressing the arrows enough times
17:39:54Zagorthen we could use you for testing our theories
17:41:19iSheepyeah.. I don't know what to think. it use is frustrating, though
17:41:53Zagorare you on the mailing list?
17:42:03iSheephmm...no, I'm not
17:43:09Zagorwhat happens if you press both up and down simultaneously? do you get PLAY events then?
17:44:20iSheepif I press them simultaneously, it either scrolls up or down.. and after pressing them maybe 10 times, it responded as if I hit Play
17:44:52Zagordoes it happen more often if you press both or just one?
17:46:51iSheepwell, it seems to happen more often while pressing the down arrow as opposed to up
17:46:59iSheepI never really use both at the same time, though
17:47:21Zagori know. i'm just trying to discern if it's a mechanical or electrical issue.
17:48:48Zagorbut it happens sometimes when pressing the UP button?
17:49:41iSheepyou know, I'm not sure about the up button. one thing I've noticed is it seems it happens when I'm PRESSING the down button, but not if I'm holding it and scrolling through
17:50:06iSheepactually, the up button triggers F2 occasionally
17:50:24Zagordoes it ever trigger play? it's important.
17:50:28iSheepnot often, though
17:50:41iSheepnot that I've noticed. let me try pressing it a lot and see if it does
17:51:40iSheepno, it doesn't
17:53:56Zagorthen I would say it's an electrical problem, and fixable in the code
17:54:31iSheephey, that would be terrific
17:54:36Zagorthank you for testing
17:54:45iSheepno problem
17:55:03iSheepI need to get going, but if you need me to do anything else to help out, feel free to e-mail me at luke2@famteam.com
17:55:31Zagori imagine we will want you to test the fix, so we know it works. i'll send you a mail.
17:55:57iSheepI'd be happy to help out. See ya later!
17:56:04Zagorbye
17:56:12 Quit iSheep ()
17:56:34Zagoramiconn: seems you and jörg were right
17:59:55amiconnMaybe. We should test this
18:00
18:00:47Zagoryup
18:00:50amiconnI would not start with full debouncing, since this will make button press detection even slower than it is now.
18:01:20amiconnMy first try would be to narrow the window of "good" values for each button
18:02:06amiconnImho this would require a survey for the typical values on a number of boxes
18:02:16Zagorthat might not be so easy. tests show different units have very different values. linus had problems with that.
18:02:44Zagorhe did just such a survey long ago. the results should be dug up and published.
18:04:40amiconnDo these values really differ much? Of course they do between the different models...
18:05:26Zagoras far as I remember, they differed a lot between different individual units of the same model
18:06:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:08:18amiconnHmm, we could simply look if do happen to also have a recorder v1
18:16:50*amiconn gets (AN5) nothing: ~001, LEFT: ~25E, PLAY: ~32C, RIGHT: ~18E, DOWN: 3FB, (AN4) nothing: ~001, F1: ~18E, F2: ~25F, F3: 3FB, UP: ~32B
18:18:14*amiconn is away now
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19:00
19:12:27amiconnback
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19:52:41usaswanghey all. what problem does "error accessing playlist control file" refer to?
19:53:43midkyou haven't used rockbox before i think
19:53:49midkit will go away after you play a song
19:54:46usaswanghmm...
19:55:01usaswangok...i guess you mean individually
19:55:18usaswangbecause i have only clicked on playlists
19:58:02midkindivvidually, yes
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19:59:57amiconnhi Bagder
20:00
20:00:04Bagderhi
20:00:11midkhi capitain
20:01:06amiconnBagder: http://rockbox.haxx.se/voice/ still there!?
20:01:09usaswangstill does it
20:01:18usaswangno matter what i click on song or playlist
20:01:18Bagderyes
20:01:18midkusaswang, hmm, ask bagder then
20:01:42usaswangyou have a clue badger, why rock box says "error accessing playlist control file"
20:01:47usaswangevery song or playlist i click on
20:01:55usaswangit plays the song after
20:01:57Bagderusaswang: do you have a .rockbox dir?
20:01:59usaswangbut the error comes up
20:02:09usaswanghmmm not on my player
20:02:16Bagderthen create on
20:02:18Bagderone
20:02:22usaswangi just copied the .ajz
20:02:26usaswangto my root
20:02:29Bagderunzip the zip instead
20:02:33Bagderit makes a proper install
20:02:53usaswangthe os needs that dir and all the files?
20:03:08Bagderas you can see, it doesn't _need_ them
20:03:18usaswangya they are for "features"
20:03:20usaswang hehe
20:03:20Bagderbut you'll get a better rockbox
20:03:40usaswangi get it now
20:04:34usaswangthanks
20:06:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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20:30:27zaserhello
20:30:34Bagderhi
20:30:59zaserI need help on my jukebox recorder v2
20:31:57Bagderyes?
20:32:41zaserwhere can i get the original boot-up files for it, i deleted the original ones and now it won't boot up
20:33:16Bagderyou flashed it?
20:34:52zaserno, i put on the rockbox firmware, and deleted the rockbox dirrectory along with the rockbox-2.2.tar.gz
20:35:31Bagderand the ajbrec.ajz?
20:35:44zasernow it wont boot up all the way, the only way i get access to the HDD is by connecting it to a computer through IDE
20:36:18zaserthe only thing i have in the recorder is the mp3s
20:37:09Bagderand the battery is charged?
20:37:46zaseri drained and charged it twice, i just got it brand new a month ago
20:38:08Bagderremoving rockbox should make it boot the archos original firmware
20:38:13Bagderwhat happens when you start it?
20:38:20Bagderwhat does it display on the screen?
20:39:15zaserit comes up with the recorder booting screen and the status bar gets half way only and stops completely
20:40:52Bagdercan you hear the disk spinup?
20:42:20zaseryes
20:43:00BagderI don't know what else it can be
20:43:07Bagdertried scandisk it?
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20:47:34zaserare there any boot files in the HDD at all, original ones i mean
20:52:11Bagdernot necessarily
20:52:18Bagderits in rom
20:52:51Bagderthat is, it uses its built-in version if there's no available on disk
20:53:28zaserim going to try to reformat the drive, what do you think
20:53:39Bagderthat would be a good idea
20:54:27zaserwhat else could be causing the problem
20:55:06BagderI don't know
20:55:23Bagderit sounds as if it gets stuck when it checks for a firmware on disk
20:55:43Bagderbut I don't know
20:57:31zaserit happened after i plugged some speakers into the box
21:00
21:10:20BagderI suggest you write down all the details and post a mail to the mailing list
21:12:54zasercould it somehow messed up the ROM bios
21:13:22Bagdernot really
21:14:14zasersomehow it got short circuited and reach the ROM chip and messed up the data
21:14:45Bagdernot likely, it is then more likely that it ruined some other circuit
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21:17:00amiconnBagder, Zagor: I consider splitting up the grayscale lib into a core and many little files, mostly containing a single function, in order to link only those functions to the plugins that are actually used.
21:17:27Bagdergood idea
21:17:46amiconnIs there a reason why this wouldn't be wise/ desired? This would become quite a number of files, though (estimation: 28)
21:19:33Bagderonly that it'll be lot more files to organize
21:19:47amiconnI would prefix all source files belonging to the grayscale lib with gray_. The header will most likely stay a single file, gray.h
21:20:15Bagdersounds good
21:20:48Bagderif it turns out like too many files, we could make a separate gray lib
21:21:20amiconnI wonder if I should reuse "gray.c", which now conatins the whole thing, to become the core, or use "gray_core.c" instead.
21:21:37amiconn*contains
21:32:36zaserreformating and running scandisk on the hard drive didn't work
21:35:23midktry putting archos' ajbrec.ajz on the drive?
21:36:50midkhttp://archos.com/download/firmware/ajbrec_v127d.zip
21:37:54 Quit mecraw ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
21:37:57midkoh, zagor or bagder, is recording done by the MAS only?
21:38:58zaserthe only good news about this whole ordeal is that by opening the jukebox, i found out that i actually have an fm recorder not just a recorder
21:39:27midkwait
21:39:29midkv2 recorder?
21:39:39zaseryeah
21:39:53midkhttp://archos.com/download/firmware/ajbrec.ajz
21:39:58midkput that in the root of the drive and try and boot it
21:40:05zaserbut the board on the recorder is actually an fm recoder
21:40:31zaseri tried that once, but probably after reformating it'll work
21:40:38midktry it again
21:46:35zaserthat didn't work either
21:51:33zaserwill it work with any laptop drive
21:54:29midkshould, yes
22:00
22:05:40zasertried another hard drive didn't work
22:06:03Bagderit sounds like you have hw problems
22:06:03midkhmm...
22:06:07midkyeh must be
22:06:11zaserrunning out of ideas, even though i had no ideas to begin with
22:06:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:07:06zaserany suggestions
22:07:55Bagderagain: I suggest you write down all the details and post a mail to the mailing list
22:08:26 Join nerochiaro [0] (~nerochiar@213.203.164.174)
22:09:16 Part nerochiaro
22:10:07 Join Nibbler [0] (nibbler@port-212-202-73-96.dynamic.qsc.de)
22:17:34silencerno link with rockboxx, but is there someone who have a browser else than IE6, Mozilla, Firefox, Opera, Netscape, Konqueror, w3m or lynx ?
22:17:56zei've got links
22:18:00zeheh
22:18:10silencerwell, and links ;)
22:18:26silencer(i'm looking for a graphic browser)
22:18:40zelinks is a graphic browser sorta isn't it? except not the way i have it setup anyway so heh
22:18:54silencer(i'm trying to test a CSS menu overs all platforms)
22:18:58silencerhehe :)
22:19:15zei see
22:19:29silencernot an easy stuff ...
22:19:43zeisn't there a page somewhere
22:19:58zethat runs the mac os x browser on a url you specify and give you a screenshot?
22:20:10silenceroh really ?
22:20:11zei guess that doesn't necessarily help though
22:20:24zebut if it can show you what you wanna see, i guess it might
22:20:30zei don't have the url on hand though
22:20:47silencerwell, thx, i didn't know the existence of such a tool
22:21:06zeyeah maybe you can find it on google or something
22:21:18zei think it was mentioned in here, so you might even find it in the logs
22:21:28silencerright
22:21:32silencernice!
22:25:09midkhi ze.
22:27:15midkZEE
22:44:46 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
23:00
23:00:39 Join mecraw [0] (~mecraw@69.2.235.2)
23:05:14 Quit zaser (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:18:52 Quit Bagder ("Leaving")
23:25:28 Quit silencer ("Lost terminal")
23:29:11 Join arspy87 [0] (~arspy87@h00062598fa3b.ne.client2.attbi.com)
23:29:17arspy87Zagor?

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