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#rockbox log for 2004-07-24

00:00:22kaboofahmm
00:00:24kaboofathanks linus
00:00:26kaboofayou rock my wold.
00:00:29kaboofaeh
00:00:30kaboofaworld too.
00:00:37 Nick kaboofa is now known as boofa^A^D (~kaboofa@dsl092-066-005.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
00:01:35LinusNboofa^A^D: lots of info here: http://www.bosswave.com/mouse/articles/eng/wearable_computers.htm
00:02:03LinusNseems the keyboard uses the rs232 port
00:02:12[IDC]DragonLinusN: is there a reason why the strings in lang.h are unsigned char?
00:02:47LinusNbecause they are 8-bit and not 7-bit?
00:03:32[IDC]Dragonthis houdn't matter
00:03:56[IDC]Dragonsizeof(char) is 1 and not 0.875
00:04:46LinusNhuh?
00:05:20[IDC]Dragonjust kidding, they also occupy a byte
00:05:39LinusNi just don't see what it has to do with the sign
00:05:50[IDC]DragonI'm stumbling over an inconsitancy, the menu strings are unsigned char, versus the option strings are char
00:05:56LinusNah
00:08:14[IDC]Dragonmy new pointer resolving code is picky about this
00:08:31[IDC]Dragonchanged the options to unsigned now, too
00:08:43LinusNprobably the best solution
00:09:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:09:04[IDC]DragonIMHO char makes more sense, but would require to change genlang
00:10:19[IDC]Dragoncompiles without warnings now, my 6 KB saver is done
00:10:42LinusNwonderful
00:11:12LinusNi think unsigned char makes more sense, since the char codes are unsigned
00:11:20[IDC]DragonI'll email you the "tricky" part for review
00:11:24LinusNgreat
00:12:00[IDC]Dragonbut it makes no sense to load you with all the changes, most are the menu+option initializers
00:12:11LinusNsend me one example
00:12:40*LinusN is fixing the gcc 3.4 quirks
00:12:55[IDC]Dragonoh, great
00:13:23[IDC]Dragonany forecast if 3.4 optimizes better?
00:14:25LinusNmy guess is that it does, but i haven't looked into that yet
00:15:06LinusN3.4.1 is out
00:15:20LinusNwith one optimizer bugfix for sh1
00:15:21[IDC]Dragonsince when?
00:15:24LinusNjuly 1
00:15:46[IDC]Dragonthey actually work on sh? wonderful!
00:16:03LinusNpartly because of rockbox
00:25:15 Join tpelliott [0] (telliott@208-251-255-120.res.evv.cable.sigecom.net)
00:26:00[IDC]DragonLinusN: email is on the way
00:27:14LinusNgot it
00:30:16LinusNlooks ok to me, can i see menu.c too?
00:31:05*[IDC]Dragon puts email together
00:32:26[IDC]Dragonany more?
00:33:57LinusNnot for now
00:34:04[IDC]Dragonon the way
00:34:49[IDC]Dragonit has only very few differences, at the places where the string is referenced
00:35:00LinusNthat's what i wanted to see
00:35:55LinusNlooks ok
00:36:11LinusNi'm not too fond of it, but i see no better solution
00:36:47[IDC]Dragonwe could give the struct an extra member
00:37:07LinusNthis way is more general
00:41:03[IDC]Dragonyou mean, defining more "virtual regions" if necessary?
00:41:25LinusNthat, and a virtual pointer can be passed anywhere
00:41:51LinusNwe can extend any function to accept a virtual pointer
00:42:17[IDC]Dragonhmm, now I get scared
00:42:53LinusNor ami missing something?
00:43:21[IDC]Dragonno, but it makes the code hard to understand
00:43:27LinusNof course
00:44:17LinusNi mean, if we invent another gui object, like a popup menu or whatever, we can use virtual pointers without adding more macros
00:44:25LinusNit's a general concept
00:44:41LinusNif we extend the struct with a flag, all structs must look the same
00:45:49[IDC]DragonI woudn't overdwaw the concept, it reqquires runtime checks whereever you resolve the pointer
00:46:10LinusNof course, but you know what i mean
00:46:31[IDC]Dragonready for a moster-commit?
00:46:50LinusNhit me
00:47:02[IDC]Dragonjust doing some touchup
00:47:14LinusNyou sound like midk :-)
00:47:23tpelliottWhat are you guys adding?
00:47:28[IDC]Dragonnothing fancy
00:47:37LinusNsaving some code memory
00:58:07 Part tpelliott
01:00
01:02:53[IDC]Dragonok, it's on the way.
01:03:02*LinusN ducks
01:03:34[IDC]DragonI just missed the bleeding edge build time, am too tired to wait for the next
01:04:11 Join Salokyn [0] (~Salokyn@AToulon-152-1-27-129.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr)
01:06:55SalokynDo you know if the [ 989420 ] Safe poweroff patch Linus was working for will be implemeted to Rockbox soon ? It semms to be bugfree now.
01:10:44SalokynHi there !
01:13:55LinusNhi Salokyn
01:15:04LinusN[IDC]Dragon: did amiconn use gcc 3.4 to build rombox?
01:15:15[IDC]Dragonno, 3.3.1
01:15:21LinusNok
01:15:58[IDC]Dragongoodnight folks!
01:16:00LinusNso i am the first to build with 3.4?
01:16:09LinusN[IDC]Dragon: nite
01:16:16[IDC]DragonI think hardeeps tried
01:17:03LinusNsuccessfully?
01:17:11[IDC]DragonMagnus Holmgren it was
01:17:16[IDC]Dragonhttp://rockbox.haxx.se/mail/archive/rockbox-archive-2004-05/0299.shtml
01:17:20LinusNah
01:17:45[IDC]Dragonproblems?
01:17:54LinusNsection overlap
01:18:12[IDC]Dragonhuh? how can?
01:18:36LinusNsection .iram [000000000902cdac -> 000000000902db13] overlaps section .stack [000000000902cdac -> 000000000902edab]
01:18:51[IDC]Dragonthis was on purpose
01:18:54LinusNit doesn't like my iram copy hack
01:19:06[IDC]Dragonto re-use the memory once the iram is copied
01:19:30[IDC]Dragonah, yours
01:19:40LinusNmust probably add some overlay flag or something
01:19:50[IDC]Dragonforce it, yes
01:20:01[IDC]Dragonbye
01:20:05 Quit [IDC]Dragon ()
01:27:26 Join dstar5 [0] (lee@ACC17A56.ipt.aol.com)
01:32:55SalokynSo Linus you have anidea of when the [ 989420 ] Safe poweroff patch will be implemented ?
01:33:37LinusNwell, i would surely like some more feedback
01:33:40Salokyn(scuse me my spce bar doesn't work very well)
01:34:03LinusNi mean, is it a Good Thing, or will it annoy people
01:34:22Salokynevec without your last modifications i found it excellent
01:34:30Salokyneven
01:37:35Salokyni'm testing it right now
01:37:35Salokyni try to turn it off while the charger is present
01:38:26lImbusSalokyn: lo
01:38:28lImbusl
01:38:28Salokynit should not even show the message in that case ?
01:39:00LinusNi think not
01:39:54Salokynbecause it shows it, and the "Shutdown" message when i press OFF again, and get back to the browser
01:40:09LinusNhmmm
01:40:11 Quit mecraw___ ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
01:40:30LinusNi guess it shouldn't do anything...
01:41:46Salokynit's not the case
01:42:31dstar5LinusN: i will have a new reorder in a few days :)
01:42:35Salokyni have the 040721 version, you didn't update it since that ?
01:42:48dstar5s/reorder/recorder
01:44:13LinusNdstar5: nice. ebay?
01:45:01LinusNSalokyn: no updates since then
01:45:50dstar5LinusN: yep
01:49:04SalokynLinusN: Ok, so on my recorder, whenplugged, it has the same bahaviour as unplugged (show the "Push OFF to shut off" and "Shutting down..." messages) except it get back to browser when disk stopped.
01:49:19LinusNnot nice
01:50:09Salokynexcept that there's no problem :-)
01:50:23Salokynfor the recorder V1
01:53:45SalokynI change the subject: I was thinking for ROMbox that can't work on V2 and FM recorders. Can't the Archos firmware be more compressed than now ?
01:54:19Salokynto let more space for rockbox
01:54:30dstar5i think ucl compress is at highest already
01:55:29LinusNyes it is
01:55:43dstar5also i was wondering.. why are we using the extension ucl? that is kinda boring.. how about a rockbox extension?
01:55:58dstar5.flash?
01:55:58dstar5.rb
01:56:06LinusNwell, it is a ucl file, so why not call it ucl?
01:56:30LinusNbut i agree, .flash may be more descriptive
01:56:33dstar5becaues it has not tie to rockbox
01:56:54LinusNhave you tried my new sort plugin yet?
01:56:55SalokynSo is it really usefull to have Archos firmware into flash ? Is it possible to keep the F1 start to ROLO an archos firmware on the disk ?
01:57:25Salokynno, not yet
01:57:28dstar5i think it is good to keep it in flash..
01:57:37LinusNSalokyn: i believe most people would feel safer if the original firmware is onboard
01:57:49LinusNeven i do :-)
01:57:50dstar5a few people have had problems and F! saved there archos
01:57:57dstar5or atleast a mod job..
01:58:31dstar5is the archos firware in flash compressed?
01:58:36Salokynyes
01:59:17dstar5maybe we should play with other compression...
01:59:30dstar5bzip or LZMA...
02:00
02:00:34Salokynwhy is it better to keep it on flash while it can be loaded from the disk
02:01:07LinusNthe general idea is that we trust the original firmware to work
02:01:13dstar5what if the fat table gets corrupt, adn the file can not be loaded...
02:01:30Salokyn(directly with the F1 start I mean, without loading rockbox first)
02:02:06dstar5what about the boot loader.. can be it be made smaller?
02:03:19Salokynwe just have to keep the archos image in a safe place on the disk
02:03:41Salokynthat will be loaded by the boot loader
02:03:50dstar5sector 63 may work...
02:03:53LinusNSalokyn: and if the disk crashes?
02:04:00dstar5how big is a sector?
02:04:04LinusN512 bytes
02:04:07dstar5i never remember those things lol
02:05:01Salokynthat would be very bad luck if disk crashand rockbox doesn't work
02:05:29LinusNyes, and then it's nice to have the original firmware in the flash
02:05:35Salokynyes
02:06:51dstar5how much more room is needed to have the rockbox running in rom to work on fm/v2?
02:07:08LinusNa few kbytes
02:08:42Salokynor replace in flash the archos firmware by a small and safe rockbox we're sure it will work and that will not change inthe time
02:09:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:09:22dstar5not a bad idea...
02:09:24Salokyna lite safe version
02:09:25LinusNthat's an option
02:09:33LinusNwe ave discussed that
02:09:43dstar5that does nothing but usb maybe???
02:10:02Salokynin fact we just need USB?
02:10:04*dstar5 likes that idea very much
02:10:12LinusNit must be able to ROLO
02:10:35Salokynright
02:11:03dstar5sounds really nice, should one use a few kbytes, and leaves more room for rockbox features :)
02:11:58*dstar5 want sto cut dowbn rockbox
02:12:04dstar5sounds like much fun
02:14:40Salokynbecause, at this time we miss some kB, but maybe later, rockbox will be bigger
02:18:01Salokynright, i leave you guys, good night
02:18:20dstar5bye
02:18:24Salokynbye
02:18:36 Part Salokyn
02:18:45dstar5cvs update is doing nothing :(
02:19:39LinusNdstar5: and?
02:20:41dstar5it is sitting there...
02:20:50dstar5i am in rockbox-devel
02:20:54lImbusit's working fine with me
02:20:58dstar5di cvs update -dP
02:21:05LinusNworks for me
02:21:12*dstar5 does ^C
02:21:48dstar5tried again.. still doing nothing
02:21:59dstar5i restart cygwin
02:22:05LinusNare you really using the rockbox cvs server?
02:22:12LinusNand not sourceforge
02:22:14dstar5yes
02:23:04dstar5it is source from rockbox.haxx.se last updated ~5 days ago
02:23:33LinusNprobably a router problem
02:23:47LinusNcan you access http://rockbox.haxx.se?
02:24:04dstar5yes
02:24:10dstar5i have not router
02:24:29dstar5i have a friewall.. but cvs has never had a problems with it
02:25:55LinusNdstar5: there are several routers on the way to our machine, out there on the internet
02:33:50dstar5bye bye
02:33:58 Quit dstar5 ("Leaving")
02:44:48 Nick midk|movie is now known as midk (~midk@c-24-18-39-204.client.comcast.net)
02:48:23LinusNgotta sleep
02:48:25LinusNnite all
02:48:40 Part LinusN
03:00
03:01:26 Part lImbus
03:01:29 Quit AciD (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
03:11:35 Join BC|coding [0] (~bluechip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com)
03:11:54midkbcbc
03:11:59BC|codingmk
03:12:05midkNONONO
03:12:08midk'mkmk'
03:12:33BC|codinglol
03:19:02 Quit scott666_ ("i'll be back...eventually...")
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04:02:02 Quit scott666_ ("i'll be back...eventually...")
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04:09:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:26:00 Quit elinenbe (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- :P")
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08:44:08 Join amiconn [0] (~jens@pD9F4C340.dip.t-dialin.net)
08:44:24midkhey amiconn
08:44:31amiconnhi
08:44:58amiconnA lot of code changes happened the last few days
08:45:29midkyeah]
08:45:41midki remember the plugin loader - that was 92 changes in one day,
08:45:43midk:]
08:54:03 Part amiconn
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09:58:37midkbrb rebot
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10:09:19***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:13:33 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@p50861DCC.dip.t-dialin.net)
11:14:28[IDC]Dragonoh, I missed amiconn
11:15:04 Quit [IDC]Dragon (Client Quit)
11:21:00 Nick midk is now known as midk|sleep (~midk@c-24-18-39-204.client.comcast.net)
11:21:03*midk|sleep is away: sleep
11:21:26*midk|sleep is away: sleep
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11:49:19 Join Michael [0] (~jirc@p50857BD9.dip.t-dialin.net)
11:51:25MichaelIs it possible to set the drives accoustic and power save modes from within rockbox?
12:00
12:04:03 Join LinusN [200] (~linus@labb.contactor.se)
12:04:33LinusNMichael: info->debug->disk info
12:05:20LinusNbut it doesn't tell the whole truth iirc
12:08:04MichaelI get "Noise mgmt: enabled" but how can I change this setting?
12:09:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:10:00LinusNyou don't
12:10:49Michaelok thanks.
12:11:09LinusNwe set the power management to 0x80 (lowest power without standby)
12:11:25LinusNand acoustic management to 0x80 (lowest noise)
12:11:42LinusNiirc
12:14:32 Quit Michael ("Leaving")
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13:00
13:21:24 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD95126D7.dip.t-dialin.net)
13:21:47[IDC]Dragonhi LinusN!
13:21:50LinusNyo
13:22:04LinusNworking on the gcc changes
13:22:20[IDC]Dragonyou seem very active these days, is your family on vacation and left you behind?
13:22:27LinusNgood guess
13:22:47[IDC]Dragonhow's gcc?
13:22:57LinusNi'm running rockbox as we speak
13:23:02LinusNin the gdb debugger
13:23:21[IDC]Dragonoh, sounds bad
13:23:29LinusNrockbox is 3k smaller with 3.4 compared to 3.0.4
13:23:33[IDC]Dragon(that you need gdb)
13:23:40LinusNi didn't need it, just tested
13:24:24LinusNbad news is that my iram-in-stack trick exploited a now-fixed bug in ld :-(
13:24:29[IDC]Dragoncompared to 3.0.4, that's Yogo vs. Porsche
13:24:58[IDC]Dragonwhat did you do about it?
13:25:06LinusNi did it the official way
13:25:14LinusNand that really sucks
13:25:25[IDC]Dragoncan we overlay?
13:25:32LinusNnot that i lose some RAM, but the way it's supposed to be done
13:25:41[IDC]Dragonphew
13:25:55LinusNwe could overlay, but the overlay mechanism works in the same sucky way
13:26:18[IDC]Dragondoes the official way work with the old gcc, backwards compatible?
13:26:22LinusNyes
13:26:33[IDC]Dragonthen what's so bad about it?
13:26:50LinusNthe iram copy can't be reused
13:26:59LinusNthe *space* cant' be reused
13:27:19[IDC]Dragonthen we do need extra RAM
13:27:25[IDC]Dragonor?
13:27:49LinusNwell, i can still reuse it, but in a slightly dirtier way
13:28:17LinusNi can reduce the stack section size and let it overflow into the iram copy
13:28:27[IDC]Dragoni think it's a common pattern for embedded to toss away a RO region which is not used any more after init, and recycle the space
13:28:56LinusNif it is run from RAM, yes
13:29:00[IDC]Dragonah, I see
13:29:24LinusNstill, i think the microtech way was nicer
13:29:40LinusNletting the compiler generate a duplicate section
13:29:48[IDC]Dragonmicrotech?
13:30:39LinusNold software company
13:32:29[IDC]Dragoncan I send you my Rombox .lds file?
13:32:36LinusNplease do
13:34:29[IDC]Dragonon the way
13:36:00LinusNgot it
13:36:39[IDC]Dragonthe vextors are in RAM, on purpose. So I can still "bend" them in my dirty plugin.
13:36:46[IDC]Dragonvectors
13:37:27LinusNmaybe we should use a "cleaner" method for that?
13:37:57[IDC]Dragoni like the power ;-)
13:38:20LinusN:_)
13:39:01[IDC]Dragonwhat smily is that? ditched nose?
13:39:32LinusNsticky shift key
13:41:22 Join Tashi [0] (jirc@209-6-251-189.c3-0.lex-ubr2.sbo-lex.ma.cable.rcn.com)
13:41:52LinusN[IDC]Dragon: i have an idea for a cleaner approach for the initdata section
13:42:35[IDC]Dragonwhich is?
13:43:01Tashihello
13:43:16LinusNhi
13:43:27LinusNneed help?
13:43:33Tashiyep
13:43:44Tashii loaded rockbox last night
13:43:55LinusN[IDC]Dragon: i use objcopy to create a new .initdata section from the .data section
13:44:09Tashii can't play any mp3s anymore
13:44:15LinusNno sound?
13:44:30Tashii keep getting the err "Dir Buffer Full"
13:44:40LinusNTashi: you yave two options:
13:44:46Tashiok
13:44:58LinusNthis is a bug in rockbox 2.2
13:45:04LinusN1) change the settings
13:45:08LinusN2) use a daily build
13:45:18LinusNi can guide you to the settings change if you wish
13:45:23Tashii'll take 1
13:45:30LinusNpress f1
13:45:50LinusNselect general settings->system
13:45:57Tashinutin happens
13:46:16LinusNyou don't see a menu?
13:46:25Tashinope
13:46:32LinusNwhat do you see then?
13:47:10Tashithe same screen
13:47:14LinusNwhich is?
13:48:24 Quit Tashi ("Leaving")
13:48:33LinusNhmmm
13:51:42[IDC]Dragonsorry, gotta go
13:52:03[IDC]Dragon(girlfriends' birthday today)
13:52:15LinusNgreet her from me
13:52:35[IDC]Dragoni better don't mention rockbox
13:52:42[IDC]Dragoncu
13:52:46LinusNcu
13:52:49 Quit [IDC]Dragon ()
14:00
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14:46:24NSplitsterling.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
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16:21:36 Join Threshold [0] (jenna@bgp01093639bgs.waren401.mi.comcast.net)
16:23:08Thresholdcan anyone tell me how to convert flash video files ? I have a bunch of videos from campchaos.net and would like to convert them to use on my rockbox...thanks
16:23:37LinusNcan you convert flash files to AVI?
16:25:12Thresholdlookin on the web now
16:25:27LinusNflash files are not really movies, iirc
16:25:50LinusNthey are scripts
16:27:11dwihnoWell...
16:27:25dwihnoIf you have the "source" file, you can export to avi using the windows standard stuff
16:27:35dwihnousing compression supported by the VFW codecs
16:27:41dwihnoafaik
16:27:55LinusNyou obviously know more than i do
16:28:32Thresholdk these are all exe files
16:29:29LinusNthen i think you're out of luck
16:30:42dwihnoI don't know if there's a way to convert flash exe's to swf again... then it would be so much simpler getting the source file.
16:31:36Thresholdya found a converter
16:31:54dwihnoyou did?
16:31:58dwihnointeresting.
16:31:59dwihnodoes it work?
16:32:03dwihnowhat does it output?
16:33:27Thresholdtrying it now
16:36:09dwihnotell me about the result when you're done
16:39:57Thresholdit output to swf
16:40:55dwihnoneato. and it works?
16:42:01Thresholdyup just converted like 10 of them in 5 seconds
16:42:34Thresholdhttp://www.popularshareware.com/Dream-flashsee-v1.1-transfer-15347.html
16:42:44Thresholdcalled dream flashee
16:43:12dwihnocool
16:43:51 Join dstar5 [0] (lee@ACC20AC4.ipt.aol.com)
16:44:44Thresholdok now that I have them to swf, now what?
16:44:57dwihnoopen them up using the flash software
16:49:43Thresholdwhat do I have to do convert them to avi ?
16:51:06DBUGEnqueued KICK Threshold
16:51:06Threshold1Uptime:12[3wks 5days 13hrs 3mins 21secs12] 1Record Uptime:12[3wks 5days 13hrs 3mins 21secs12]
16:52:05dwihnothere should be an export option in the file menu
16:54:22 Quit gromit`` ("Client exiting")
16:55:16 Join Lee_ [0] (lee@ACC20AC4.ipt.aol.com)
17:00
17:00:13 Join zeekoe [0] (~zeekoe@ip51cc69f6.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl)
17:00:35zeekoehiiii
17:00:51zeekoedoes anyone know if the usb port has 5V available?
17:00:57zeekoeor is that only for usb masters
17:01:09LinusNit has
17:01:12zeekoewhee
17:01:21zeekoei made this: http://home.student.utwente.nl/r.teune/micpreamp.jpg
17:01:27LinusNhey wait a minute
17:01:30zeekoewhat?
17:01:39LinusNyou want to draw 5V from the jukebox USB port
17:01:40LinusN?
17:01:40dwihnoWhat a cute piece of junk :D
17:01:42zeekoeyep
17:01:44zeekoe:P
17:01:45LinusNsorry
17:01:48zeekoecute indeed
17:01:50zeekoeok
17:02:03 Join NibbIer [0] (~nibbler@port-212-202-78-112.dynamic.qsc.de)
17:02:16dwihnookay, the stuff with rings are resistors, the black thing is something else, and the blue boxes are ... ?
17:02:16zeekoewell, then i have to make some wires go to the battery
17:02:23zeekoe:P
17:02:31LinusNwhat is that ... thing?
17:02:34zeekoethe black thing is the MAX4467, microphone preamp
17:02:44LinusNah
17:02:48zeekoethe blue bubbles are 100n capacitors
17:03:09dwihnoaah
17:03:15dwihnoI should have guessed that :)
17:03:19dwihnocapacitor bang! :D
17:03:44LinusNhmm, 100n, they can be pretty small in SMD size...
17:04:00CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
17:04:00*LinusN is thinking of an internal mod
17:04:25LinusNnah
17:04:33LinusNno good connector to use
17:05:13zeekoeok
17:05:17zeekoesmd is no good
17:05:21zeekoewell
17:05:30LinusNbtw, is it picky about the voltage level?
17:05:31zeekoenot if you use the soldering iron i use
17:05:35zeekoenope, not at all
17:05:40zeekoe2.4-6 volts
17:05:42zeekoeiirc
17:06:01LinusNgood, cause the batteries will give you 4.6-5.7 something
17:06:14zeekoei hope this thing'll work, otherwise i need the other max4467 which is SOT23, which means it fits about 4 times in this chip
17:06:28zeekoeyep, i already figured
17:06:49zeekoedwihno: capacitor bang?
17:08:03dwihnozeekoe: lots of voltage -> capacitor BANG! :D
17:08:13zeekoedwihno: i don't think it's possible to blow up these small things; electrolytes should work though :)
17:08:23dwihnobigger capacitors, bigger bangs :)
17:08:49dwihnoHuge capacitor, big bang? So THAT'S how the universe got started.
17:08:51zeekoedwihno: i study electrical engineering, and what do you think was the first thing we did ;-)
17:09:54zeekoethere is no voltage-carrying connector at all?
17:10:07zeekoenot even the digital out?
17:10:11dwihnozeekoe: capacitor bangs?
17:10:18dwihnozeekoe: electromagnetic motors?
17:10:23dwihno(we did those)
17:10:43zeekoedwihno: indeed, capacitor bangs :-)
17:10:47zeekoedwihno: well, some of us anyway
17:10:51dwihnodamn was I good at rolling the copper :D
17:10:55zeekoe:P
17:11:03 Quit dstar5 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:11:18zeekoewhat do the metal thingies inside the digital out connector?
17:11:25zeekoedo they connect to something?
17:11:34LinusN?
17:11:45LinusNthey connect to the cable you insert
17:11:50zeekoe:P
17:11:54LinusNit is coaxial, not optical
17:11:57zeekoehuh
17:12:12zeekoeso that's why the optical thing didn't work :P
17:12:12 Join gromit`` [0] (~gromit@ALagny-151-1-31-87.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr)
17:12:49LinusNhttp://rockbox.haxx.se/docs/faq.html#72
17:12:54zeekoeweird... the guy who sold me the thing gave an optical cable with it
17:13:00zeekoeand it fits right in
17:13:16LinusNhe obviously never used it :-)
17:14:01zeekoe:P
17:14:07zeekoehmm
17:14:18zeekoewould it be possible to set the digital out to +5V? :)
17:14:36LinusNno
17:15:17zeekoebad
17:15:48LinusNit sure would be nice to not have to open it for the preamp voltage
17:15:56zeekoecan i use the signal anyway, and then make it DC with some capacitor?
17:16:01zeekoeyep
17:16:14zeekoeor is it too weak?
17:16:23LinusNzeekoe: the S/PDIF output is only working when you play sound
17:16:38LinusNnot when you are recording
17:17:22zeekoeblah
17:17:50zeekoeif it isnt used when recording, it can be +5V
17:18:04zeekoebut that's not possible i guess...
17:18:45LinusNit's more like 3V or even less
17:18:50LinusNand very weak
17:19:16zeekoehm
17:19:41zeekoeokay, then there's nothing else left than taping some wires to the batteries
17:20:49LinusNsolder, you mean...?
17:20:50zeekoethe DC in won't happen to be a bidirectional port, would it? ;-)
17:22:14LinusNno
17:22:55LinusNhow much current do you need?
17:23:00zeekoenot much
17:23:02zeekoelet's see
17:23:15zeekoe5 nA when in shutdown mode :P
17:23:41zeekoe20 uA
17:24:04LinusNhehe, that wasn't much
17:24:18zeekoeat least, that's what elektor tells me
17:24:51LinusNwill there be any difference when the mic is picking up sound?
17:24:52zeekoemaybe i can make it work on bodyheat :P
17:25:16zeekoeLinusN: don't know... it just says 200 kHz bandwith; current usage 20 uA
17:25:43LinusNthe remote control input has a weak pullup resistor
17:25:49LinusNon some jukeboxes
17:25:55zeekoehmm
17:26:04zeekoebut then i need a 4-input connector
17:26:09LinusNso?
17:26:39zeekoei have to go all the way to groningen, that's 20 km from here, and then buy the thing, and return home
17:26:40zeekoe:P
17:26:44zeekoei want it now :)
17:26:49zeekoebut it is a good option
17:26:59LinusNso get it from the batteries for now
17:27:11zeekoeyep
17:27:27zeekoeand then get a 4 input connector
17:27:53zeekoehere's the circuit diagram btw: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2469
17:28:53zeekoemax 60 uA it says
17:29:05LinusNwhat kind of mic does it want?
17:29:17zeekoedunno
17:29:20zeekoe:P
17:30:23zeekoei think a mic which needs power supply thingy
17:30:25LinusNgotta go for a few minutes, cu later
17:30:28zeekoeelectret are they called?
17:30:29zeekoeok
17:30:39zeekoesee you
17:34:33zeekoei think it can use both electret and other types of microphones
17:35:22 Join sethians [0] (~jirc@200.87.85.244)
17:39:04sethianshello
17:39:09dwihnoThere is really no use in buying a 3G phone right now... What do you guys think?=
17:39:12sethiansd
17:40:29Lee_collect2: cannot find `ld'
17:40:29Lee_make[1]: *** [/home/Lee/rockbo
17:40:29Lee_make[1]: Leaving directory `/h
17:40:29DBUGEnqueued KICK Lee_
17:40:29Lee_make: *** [apps] Error 2
17:40:29Lee_Lee@home ~/rockbox-devel/build
17:40:30***Alert Mode level 1
17:40:30Lee_$ ld
17:40:32Lee_ld: no input files
17:40:40Lee_why is it complaining about ld not there?
17:40:49Lee_i typed ld.. it is there...
17:40:50sethiansMy HD of mi mp3 recorder (20GB) has died, i want to buy a new HD, what HD is a good one for my mp3 recorder
17:41:16scott666_anything thats 2.5" and 9mm high
17:41:20 Nick scott666_ is now known as scott666 (~scott666@c-24-245-58-48.mn.client2.attbi.com)
17:41:37 Nick Lee_ is now known as dstar5 (lee@ACC20AC4.ipt.aol.com)
17:41:37DBUGEnqueued KICK dstar5
17:41:37***Alert Mode level 2
17:42:48dstar5sethians: i have a 20gb drive i may sell to you...
17:43:29dstar5i just bought a rec15 on ebay to replace my old rec20 (the one the HD came out of)
17:43:57sethianshow much ?? $$$
17:44:13dstar5make an offer :)
17:46:14zeekoedwihno: in holland there's really no use in buying 3G, since there is no 3G network around here...
17:47:36zeekoedwihno: and some people did 3G testing, the guys under the antenna's became dizzy and got headaches
17:47:44zeekoeso i dont really like 3G
17:48:00zeekoenot sure what's true about that story though
17:49:36dwihnoantennas are bad for you
17:49:41dwihnounless you're from outer space
17:50:23zeekoewell... antennas not really
17:50:31zeekoejust the radiation ;)
17:51:38***Alert Mode OFF
17:54:03dwihnonaaha
17:54:25dwihnoif you move away from the antenna, the dizzieness stops :)
17:54:28dwihnoso it has to be the antenna
17:54:45CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 1 minute and 8 seconds at the last flood
17:54:45*dwihno - the mobile operator lobbyist no. 1 ;)
17:57:52zeekoebut when you shut down the device, you don't get dizzy anymore
17:58:00zeekoeeven when you are close to the antenna
18:00
18:01:58zeekoehmm
18:02:01*zeekoe food
18:09:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:12:32 Quit dstar5 ("Leaving")
18:16:27 Join hermes [0] (~ju@82.67.68.29)
18:16:33hermeshello i m french
18:16:53hermeswhere can i put a 8mo in my archos?
18:18:04scott666what?
18:19:37scott666could you rephrase that?
18:20:06*scott666 speaks a little french
18:22:06 Join BC|coding [0] (~bluechip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com)
18:22:58scott666hey BC|coding
18:25:06BC|codinghey scott|beingTheDevil
18:25:36scott666im addicted to tabbing :-(
18:27:07BC|codinghow did the tests go last night?
18:27:18scott666what tests?
18:27:33BC|codingthe build?
18:27:43scott666ahh
18:27:51scott666i went to sleep a little after you did
18:28:00BC|codingfairy nuf
18:28:09scott666im lookng at the error now
18:30:32BC|codingmust try to make the directions scott proof :)
18:30:48scott666yeah
18:30:51BC|codingadd things like "don't delete stuff while you are adding lines" LOL
18:31:50scott666i didnt delete anything!
18:32:30BC|codingI'll send you the log of our chat, you can spot what I put back to fix your first problem
18:32:36scott666but directions like 'add this to the plugin interface' arent paricularly helpful when youve never looked in plugin.[c|h]
18:32:47scott666i have a log
18:34:02 Quit zeekoe (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:35:54scott666i think ill try with a fresh plugin.c
18:37:14BC|codingadd the specified lines to the only struct in the file :)
18:38:23 Join zeekoe [0] (~zeekoe@ip51cc69f6.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl)
18:38:34BC|codingtry not to delete the close brace when you do it this time :P
18:41:32scott666i didnt delete any close braces the first time
18:41:44scott666..or the second time for that matter, i just tried again and got the same error
18:41:51scott666must be in another file
18:55:10 Join Doehni_ [0] (~Doensen@188.158-201-80.adsl.skynet.be)
19:00
19:00:38LinusNBC|coding: does the new sim makefiles work ok for you?
19:00:45Doehni_hi
19:00:52LinusNhi
19:01:04 Quit gromit`` (Remote closed the connection)
19:01:13Doehni_@LinusN: lImbus said, you need some hd infos...
19:02:04LinusNDoehni_: having problems?
19:03:49Doehni_no, not yet
19:04:04Doehni_do you need my preferences?
19:04:25LinusNnot unless you have problems
19:04:39Doehni_m'kay
19:04:41BC|codinglinus, scott says you are looking for me, but I can't see your words on my screen!?
19:04:45LinusNthanks anyway
19:04:48Doehni_np
19:04:56LinusNBC|coding: ?
19:05:02BC|codingah, now I can see you :)
19:05:21LinusNwas just asking if the sim makefiles work ok for you now
19:06:29zeekoehm... would it be possible to read the hard drive temperature with rockbox?
19:06:32LinusNmaybe my nick has the same color as the background?
19:06:43LinusNzeekoe: maybe
19:06:52BC|codingI will have to check, diff got terribly confused including the bits you used into my version
19:07:05BC|codingI will get the makefile clean from cvs and try in a minute
19:07:26zeekoeLinusN: i read somewhere it could be done by sending "F0" to the hard drive... but dont have any knowledge about that whole hard drive stuff
19:07:56LinusNi haven't studied the s.m.a.r.t command set, but it should be possible
19:08:23zeekoeok
19:08:39zeekoewell, not that important anyway :)
19:11:07BC|codingactually, linus, do you mean the makefile for the UIsim, or a makefile to fix the libplugin problem?
19:11:50LinusNthey are the same nowadays :-)
19:13:10BC|coding:)
19:13:51zeekoethe back of the archos seems to be conducting and grounded :)
19:13:54BC|codingbracing for cvs conflicts....
19:16:27*LinusN is working on gcc 3.4 support
19:22:42BC|codingID2P?
19:23:18LinusNa new trick we use to keep string ID:s and strings in the same variable type
19:23:39BC|codingnice move :)
19:23:42LinusNthat way we don't need to use the str() function in runtime to look up the menu strings
19:23:53BC|codingaha! :)
19:23:55LinusNsaves us some code space
19:24:22LinusNgood for rombox
19:24:32BC|codingI found a real gem to save oooodddles of codespace
19:24:43LinusNggc 3.4 gives 3k smaller executables than 3.0.4
19:24:49BC|codingarray indexing sucks
19:24:50LinusNtell me
19:25:01LinusNoh yes it does
19:25:18LinusNlots of calculation going on
19:25:44BC|codingI have taken to using THING* tp = &thing[n]; and then using tp->xxx instead of thing[n].xxx
19:26:18LinusNthat sometimes helps
19:26:22BC|codingit is worth it even if it is only used twice
19:26:45LinusNthe compiler should really optimize that
19:27:00BC|codingsadly it doesn't
19:27:20LinusNit doesn't always know that the index is constant
19:27:51BC|codingEven when the fn() does nothing else ...eg some of the card_engine code
19:30:21LinusNmultidimensional arrays are the hardest for the compiler to optimize
19:30:26 Quit sethians ("Leaving")
19:30:35BC|codingthese are 1d
19:30:46LinusNld?
19:30:53BC|coding1-dimentional
19:31:35BC|codingnot N-dimentional ....such as struct Pile { ... } pile[pileMax];
19:32:00zeekoewhee
19:32:02*zeekoe back
19:32:14zeekoe(sorry to intterupt :)
19:32:47zeekoejust did some testing of the mic preamp, on 3 batteries (put a copper thingy between the right 2 batteries, and got the ground from the line-in plug)
19:33:10zeekoein the recording pre-"hear" i can hear the sounds and see the level meters moving
19:33:10LinusNno smoke?
19:33:21zeekoeno, this time no smoke...
19:33:57zeekoelast time i did something with this chip i did have smoke btw, there are 2 kinds of packages with totally different connections, and i had the wrong ones...
19:34:13zeekoebut the recording files are corrupted!
19:34:31zeekoeand it seems to be draining the batteries quite a bit
19:35:30LinusNdoes "normal" recordings work without corruption?
19:35:40zeekoenope, just thought about that too and tested it
19:35:47zeekoemaybe its rombox
19:36:00LinusNmy guess is that you have a serious hum, that is overflowing the mpeg encoder
19:36:04zeekoeor it's the almost empty batts
19:36:09zeekoe?
19:36:11zeekoewhy
19:36:42zeekoethe 50 Hz thingy makes the mpeg encoder go wild?
19:36:47LinusNthe MAS has problems with static sounds and also with too high gain
19:36:50zeekoe...
19:36:53zeekoebad
19:37:11zeekoebut recording from the mic doesnt work either now
19:39:14LinusNtry charging the batteries
19:39:37LinusNBC|coding: give me an example of an array indexing that the compiler fails to optimize
19:40:39zeekoemy other batteries are just in the charger, these were supposed to be full, but i'll get another pack
19:45:00 Join Guest [0] (~jirc@CPE-24-94-196-35.mn.rr.com)
19:52:54 Join tpelliott [0] (telliott@208-251-255-120.res.evv.cable.sigecom.net)
19:53:50BC|codingLinus, card_PileNew(), card_PileSetPH() ...to name two
19:54:07tpelliottDo you think the safe poweroff is ready for the daily builds?
19:54:17LinusNtpelliott: i have one more bug fix
19:54:22BC|codinglibs seem to be make'ing okay :)
19:54:57tpelliottA charger problem? I never use the charger so I didn't notice it.
19:59:47LinusNBC|coding: you mean that the compiler recalculates the index for every assignment?
20:00
20:00:36BC|codingI wouldn't like to speculate on the actual code, but it seems like the most likely cause, yes
20:01:15BC|codingby creating a pointer to the element I am using, I gain
20:04:03BC|codingcan I remove this too?
20:04:04BC|coding#ifdef SIMULATOR
20:04:04BC|coding #define bool_is_broken
20:04:04DBUGEnqueued KICK BC|coding
20:04:04BC|coding#endif
20:04:17LinusNwas it ever necessary?
20:04:22BC|codingLOL
20:04:57CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
20:04:57*BC|coding avoids "no, I added it for a laugh" and settles with...
20:04:58BC|codingyes
20:06:03BC|codingYou should see what a mess my print-screen routine generates if I fwrite() the struct
20:06:39BC|codingincluding my favourite ....adding a byte of pointless-ness which puts the second half of the struct on an off-byte boundary
20:07:01BC|codingstructure packing is an absolute mess :(
20:07:06LinusNall that should work now
20:07:43BC|codingWhat about the weird endian-ness of struct data?
20:08:11LinusNi don't know what you're talking about
20:08:38BC|codingfwrite(struct) will swap the words, but not the bytes, creating something that is neither big nor little endian
20:08:47BC|codingbrb
20:09:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:12:14 Join Strath [0] (~mike@dgvlwinas01pool0-a227.wi.tds.net)
20:27:02 Quit Guest ("Leaving")
20:27:45 Join russb7 [0] (~jirc@CPE-24-94-196-35.mn.rr.com)
20:28:12 Part Strath
20:28:36BC|codingbak
20:30:08LinusNBC|coding: i have investigated your code a little
20:30:33BC|codinganything interesting?
20:30:38LinusNwhy this fetish for small data types?
20:31:32BC|codingused to an environment where it makes a difference, but as it rarely makes a difference to rockbox code, I just stayed with it
20:31:44LinusNit does make a difference
20:32:25LinusNall registers are 32-bit, so it has to extend the byte/word data to 32 bits
20:32:41LinusNlots and lost of ext instructions
20:32:42BC|codingthe compiler tends to optimise that well
20:33:04BC|codingi replaced LOADS of my UI16's with int's and the code remained identical in size
20:33:09LinusNalso, there are no indexed instructions for non32-bit data
20:33:28LinusNthat's why the indexing is so slow
20:33:44LinusNit has to recalculate the pointer each time, instead if indexing
20:33:56BC|codingspeed is no problem for me - i keep hitting the 32k plugin limit
20:34:14LinusNbecause it can't use the mov.l instruction with the indexed addressing mode
20:34:37LinusNPileNew got a lot smaller when i used int's
20:34:57BC|codinghmmm - I shall investigate further then :)
20:35:12BC|codingyou mean ints in the struct??
20:35:19LinusNthe general rule is to use the natural data type of the processor
20:35:31LinusNyes
20:35:41BC|codingomg no - i dont have the ram for that!!!
20:35:46BC|codingI wish I did
20:36:24BC|codingblackjack supports 8 decks of cards - the cost would be immense
20:36:55BC|coding#bool-is-broken costs me about 1K of plugin space per deck
20:37:08LinusNthen remove it
20:37:40BC|codingi will - and if it works I will leave it that way, and if it's still broke I will return it back again
20:37:57LinusNi wonder about this comment:
20:38:06LinusNRockbox cannot handle bools if they are inside a struct in a lib
20:38:08BC|codingalthough that example, is only relevant with the sim anyway
20:38:17LinusNwhat does rockbox have to do with that?
20:39:03BC|codingapparently it was caused by a makefile problem
20:39:09LinusNnow i get it
20:39:19LinusNthat is also a sim issue
20:39:30LinusNsorry, my brain is idle today
20:39:37BC|codings'cool ;)
20:40:20LinusNhow many piles do you support?
20:40:32BC|codingN
20:40:46BC|codingklondike uses 3+4+7
20:40:47LinusN65536
20:41:01BC|codingoh right, max possible
20:41:04LinusNyou could use a byte for that instead of word
20:41:05BC|codingyeah, 64K
20:41:08BC|codingUI16
20:41:35BC|codingUI8 would likely have been enough - but I'm not being bitten by the preminition again
20:42:10LinusNi don't get it
20:42:30LinusNnudge?
20:42:39BC|codingwhat? my choice to limit the user to 64K piles?
20:42:52LinusN"bitten by..."
20:43:20BC|codingnudge ...play klondike and watch what happens when you move up a pile - the active card is "nudged" out of line so uyou can see it
20:43:39BC|codingif I limit the user to 255 piles, you can bet some weirdo will want 300
20:43:42LinusNso nudge can have many values?
20:43:59BC|codingyes, NUDGE_UP, NUDGE_DOWN, NUDGE_LEFT, NUDGE_RIGHT
20:44:01LinusNi thought you wanted to save memory
20:44:22BC|codingat the cost of functionality? no!
20:44:40LinusNseriously, what game wants 200 piles?
20:45:03BC|codingoh righty - sorry, there's two topics going here - I'm getting confused
20:45:19BC|codingyes, maybe UI8 pile would be a good optimisation :)
20:45:29BC|codingno, removing nudge would be bad (imho)
20:45:37LinusNthe card struct is a good target for saving memory
20:45:59BC|codingoh yes, there are decks*52*2 of those in memory
20:46:10LinusN*2?
20:46:32BC|codingsorry, that's inaccruate
20:46:38BC|codingthisPile should be considered though
20:47:22BC|codingthe currently active sub-set of cards
20:47:54 Join Guest [0] (~jirc@81-86-122-158.dsl.pipex.com)
20:47:57 Join gromit`` [0] (~gromit@w00t.adsl.nerim.net)
20:49:40LinusNfor some reason, assigning pileCnt to a local variable reduced the number of instructions to index the array
20:50:14BC|codingWEIRD!
20:51:33 Part tpelliott
20:51:57BC|codingPileCardCnt is a macro for pile[PileNum].count ...but pileCnt, doesn't make sense
20:52:48*scott666 remembers when PileCardCnt wasn't a macro
20:52:58BC|codinghee hee
20:54:32BC|codingam I correct in saying that >>8 uses a macro?
20:56:03LinusNuses a macro=
20:56:05LinusN?
20:56:56BC|codingie. when compiled it does not use the >>8 instruction but a sequence of >>1 instructions (or similar)
20:58:07LinusNmaybe the >>8 instruction has problems with signed/unsigned?
20:58:09BC|codingthnks for making me look at the card() struct again ...you are right, there is a good chunk of optimisation I can do there :)
20:58:17BC|codingcard[]
20:58:35BC|codinghmm, could be
20:59:21LinusNone thing regarding struct packing:
20:59:27BC|codingI noticed it chatting with ami one night, and both he and dragon were surprised to find out about it - so I can only presume that our asm-coders have never seen it in a dump before??
20:59:32BC|codingyes
20:59:50LinusNit's a good idea to group the types of the same size
21:00
21:00:00LinusNso the packing can be efficient
21:00:09LinusNsort the members by size
21:00:26BC|codingomg
21:00:27LinusNotherwise the compiler is forced to pad
21:00:32*BC|coding looks a little embarrassed
21:00:52scott666BC: what do you want me to do with all these audio3587 builds?
21:02:00LinusN#bool_is_broken is unconditionally set :-)
21:02:08LinusNeven on the target
21:02:23BC|codingyes, I have made a LOT of changes in the last couple of days
21:02:37BC|codingthat has been corrected now :)
21:02:47LinusN"corrected" :_)
21:03:11BC|codingfixed
21:03:20LinusNcorrected == removed
21:04:15 Join tpelliott [0] (telliott@208-251-255-120.res.evv.cable.sigecom.net)
21:05:02BC|coding:) I have yet to test, but yes, "removed" is what I expect before my next release
21:05:51LinusNi put quite a lot of effort into the sim makefile
21:06:29BC|codingI have never known you to do things by half - I have 98% faith that it works :)
21:06:58LinusN:-)
21:07:27LinusNdid you see my sort plugin?
21:07:39LinusNtook me about an hour
21:07:59BC|codinglooking now....
21:11:28BC|codingchar *s1 = *(char **)p1;
21:11:30BC|codingouch!
21:12:42BC|codingis this legal: char crlf[2] = "\r\n";
21:12:55BC|coding"\r\n" is three bytes long no?
21:14:26LinusNhmm, funny
21:15:44BC|codingnice code though - good documentation too :) ...as I say, not one to do things by half ;)
21:17:52LinusNwell, it doesn't do merge sort
21:18:40BC|codingthere's always _something_ extra you can add :)
21:19:20BC|codingI've gotta see if I can get my (faked) stereo mixing demo going at some point
21:19:30BC|codingwant to add that to the starfield demo
21:19:57LinusNwhat is that?
21:21:01BC|codingI've run some "do it by hand" demos past my friends and I think I've got something pretty convincing ...it SOUNDS like two stereo mp3's being played at the same time :)
21:23:42 Quit Guest ("Leaving")
21:24:01LinusNcool
21:44:40BC|codinglol, by optimising the card[] struct element order (biggest first) ...on a game with 8 decks, I get a total saving of 12bytes
21:45:34LinusNyeah, the card struct was already compact
21:50:24zeekoewell, that's really good, BC|coding, now you saved 0,000057220458984375% of the hard drive space
21:51:00zeekoehey... but that's patience
21:51:39BC|codingLMAO - want the irony ... fixing the pile[] struct COST me 12bytes :)
21:52:02LinusN???
21:52:53BC|codingand changing the int's to I16's cost me another 24
22:00
22:00:55LinusN:-)
22:04:09 Quit russb7 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:05:19BC|codingfor plugins, even things like this are useful:
22:05:19BC|codingvoid rb_sleep (int x) { rb->sleep(x); }
22:06:18BC|codingI found a nice bug in the keyboard code - haven't fixed it yet
22:06:24LinusNtell me
22:06:50BC|codingpress on, press play, release play, release on ...gives:
22:07:04BC|codingON, PLAY, ON, REL-ON
22:07:42LinusNoh yes
22:07:52BC|codingdid you fix the NOT problem in the sim yet?
22:08:08hermesEd Petron?
22:08:21 Nick midk|sleep is now known as mikd (~midk@c-24-18-39-204.client.comcast.net)
22:08:23 Nick mikd is now known as midk (~midk@c-24-18-39-204.client.comcast.net)
22:08:27LinusNthe NOT problem?
22:08:28BC|codinglol
22:08:46BC|codinglet me find it again....
22:09:32***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:12:23hermeshe
22:12:31BC|codinghmmm, cant find my post, it was a boolean NOT where a LOGICAL NOT should be in the sim button handling code
22:12:35hermeswhere are you?
22:13:00hermesare you human?
22:13:12hermesnot God
22:13:13LinusNhermes: ???????
22:13:29hermesonly i
22:13:52Mode"#rockbox +o LinusN " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
22:14:05BC|codinglol
22:14:19hermessorry
22:14:24midkhaha
22:14:38hermesi forgot i am on rockbox
22:14:47midka likely story
22:14:49hermesi spoke to my girlfriend
22:14:58hermesi love her
22:15:25hermesbut sometimes she exit mind
22:15:30 Part hermes
22:15:43midk...
22:15:45midkok
22:17:05LinusNBC|coding: you should get ON, PLAY, REL-PLAY, ON, REL-ON
22:17:42BC|codingwould it not make more sense to get: ON, PLAY, REL-PLAY, REL-ON ?
22:17:47LinusNyes
22:17:58LinusNiwas referring to what the target code does
22:18:03BC|codingOH RIGHT
22:18:05BC|codingoh right
22:19:09BC|codingbefore I go hunting, is there an easy way to retrieve the current state of the keyboard (excuse the pun)
22:19:37LinusNtry button_status()
22:19:45BC|codingcheers
22:19:58 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD95127BF.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:20:21LinusNhi [IDC]Dragon
22:20:33LinusNyou should be celebrating with your girlfriend
22:20:35midkLinusN, you got an av300 to work under linux before, right?
22:20:37[IDC]Dragonhi LinusN with the op hat
22:20:53LinusNmidk: i have never had one
22:21:01midki noticed one at your devcon
22:21:15LinusNbj?rn brought it
22:21:19LinusNwe never used it
22:21:42midknever used it?
22:21:45midki'll take it :)
22:21:57 Nick BC|coding is now known as BC|bbs (~bluechip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com)
22:21:57DBUGEnqueued KICK BC|bbs
22:22:38[IDC]DragonLinusN: have you tried the rombox lds with gcc 3.4?
22:22:55LinusNi made my own
22:23:05LinusNwhy do you make a copy of the vectors?
22:23:21[IDC]DragonI don't want them in ROM
22:23:25LinusNwhy not just copy the original?
22:23:35[IDC]Dragon?
22:23:49LinusNthe vectors are loaded to 0x2011010
22:23:59LinusNcopy them from there to 0x9000000
22:24:09LinusNno need for an extra copy
22:24:40[IDC]Dragon0x2011010 is the flash location
22:24:43LinusNyes
22:24:58[IDC]Dragonfrom there, directly to RAM start
22:26:03LinusNyou put them in the .data section
22:26:34LinusNand put the data section at 0x9000000
22:26:59CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
22:26:59*LinusN slaps his forehead
22:27:25LinusNi see now what you mean
22:27:39LinusNnever mind, i put together a rombox version of app.lds
22:27:51LinusNthat can build both kinds
22:28:02LinusNalong with a configure script addition
22:28:34LinusNthe only thing that bothers me now is the flash start address
22:29:02 Join Pano-Manix6 [0] (~biroute@dyn-83-155-124-215.ppp.tiscali.fr)
22:29:11Pano-Manix6hey !
22:29:17LinusNhi
22:29:30Pano-Manix6i need help plz
22:29:59LinusNshoot
22:30:04Pano-Manix6I've a problem with my Archos jukebox studio 20
22:30:43Pano-Manix6Can anyone help me ? :'(
22:30:52 Join [IDC]Dragon2 [0] (~idc-drago@pD9FF885B.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:31:06LinusNPano-Manix6: yes we can help you, just tell us what the problem is
22:31:11Pano-Manix6k
22:31:11[IDC]Dragon2the phone line is unstable
22:31:14Pano-Manix6so
22:31:24Kick(#rockbox [IDC]Dragon :LinusN) by LinusN!~linus@labb.contactor.se
22:31:48[IDC]Dragon2every time my g/f gets on the phone, my DSL gets disconnected
22:31:49Pano-Manix6my jukebox workec the first time I wired it to the PC
22:32:07Pano-Manix6I put some MP3 in
22:32:08LinusN[IDC]Dragon2: then you have the dsl modem in the wrong jack
22:32:22Pano-Manix6I remove it from the PC
22:32:41Pano-Manix6i tried to listen but it wasn't work
22:32:47LinusNPano-Manix6: windows?
22:32:51Pano-Manix6y
22:33:03LinusNdid you "safely unplug" the jukebox?
22:33:16Pano-Manix6and it tells me hard drive error (or something like this)
22:33:34Pano-Manix6<LinusN> did you "safely unplug" the jukebox? << i think i forgot it :S
22:33:34LinusNdid you "safely unplug" the jukebox?
22:33:50LinusNthat explains it
22:34:28Pano-Manix6is there anyway to make it work ?
22:34:45LinusNyes, plug it to the pc and do scandisk, maybe reformat
22:35:14Pano-Manix6but my PC don't recognize it anymore
22:35:32LinusNdoes the jukebox go to usb mode?
22:35:40Pano-Manix6yeah
22:36:00LinusNwhat exactly is the error message on the jukebox?
22:36:18Pano-Manix6error : "file sys. error"
22:36:39 Join Bagder [0] (~daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se)
22:36:56LinusNtry to insert the USB cord before turning on the jukebox
22:36:57LinusNhi Bagder
22:37:02Bagderevening
22:37:03LinusNlong time no see
22:37:12Pano-Manix6that's when I'm trying to start it without connect it by USB
22:37:20LinusNi know
22:37:35Pano-Manix6i tried it too
22:37:43LinusNdid you reboot the pc too?
22:37:57Pano-Manix6maybe ...
22:38:01Pano-Manix6brb
22:38:55 Quit Pano-Manix6 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
22:41:54 Join Pano-Manix6 [0] (~biroute@dyn-83-155-124-215.ppp.tiscali.fr)
22:42:13Pano-Manix6i'm back :)
22:42:40Pano-Manix6but it doesn't want to work ...
22:43:31LinusNsometimes Windows is a pain
22:43:49Pano-Manix6i know ...
22:43:50LinusNdoes the drive spin up?
22:44:02Pano-Manix6uh ?
22:44:09LinusNthe hard drive in the player
22:44:24Pano-Manix6it makes a strange noise :/
22:44:29LinusNstrange?
22:44:39Pano-Manix6(for me , but maybe it is normal)
22:44:58LinusNbut does it spin?
22:45:10Pano-Manix6cricricricri very fast
22:45:16Pano-Manix6yeah it spin
22:45:26Pano-Manix6spins
22:45:26LinusNwindows xp?
22:45:30Pano-Manix6y
22:45:52LinusNi have very little Windows experience
22:46:04*LinusN is a Linux guy
22:46:15BC|bbsscott had this earlier today with XP, he removed the drivers and rebooted ...could it be an update issue?
22:46:26 Nick BC|bbs is now known as BC (~bluechip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com)
22:46:26DBUGEnqueued KICK BC
22:46:38LinusNBC: thanks for rescuing me
22:46:44BCnp
22:47:06Pano-Manix6i can try too ...
22:47:08 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD95121FE.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:47:25Pano-Manix6removing ...
22:47:57[IDC]Dragonback online
22:48:36[IDC]DragonLinusN: btw, thanks for for fixing my embarrasing FM oversight yesterday
22:48:41LinusN:-)
22:48:50Kick(#rockbox [IDC]Dragon2 :LinusN) by LinusN!~linus@labb.contactor.se
22:49:06[IDC]DragonDSL now wired back to normal
22:49:26[IDC]DragonI'm chasing some disturbance we have in the phone
22:49:45BagderLinusN: I'm on a "scream" adsl too now
22:50:05Pano-Manix6rebooting ....
22:50:11 Quit Pano-Manix6 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:50:22LinusNBagder: 8mbit/s?
22:50:36Bagderyeps
22:50:50Bagderat least I think it is
22:50:53BCthat's a LOT of porn :)
22:51:02CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
22:51:02*[IDC]Dragon turns red in envy
22:51:17LinusNmega pr0n surfing
22:51:31LinusN[IDC]Dragon: have 8mbit/s too :-)
22:52:07*[IDC]Dragon turns green
22:52:11 Join Pano-Manix6 [0] (~biroute@dyn-83-155-124-215.ppp.tiscali.fr)
22:52:21Pano-Manix6and trying ^^
22:54:50Pano-Manix6waiting more and more (windows power)
22:55:38 Quit Pano-Manix6 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:58:10 Join Pano-Manix6 [0] (~biroute@dyn-83-155-124-215.ppp.tiscali.fr)
22:58:33Pano-Manix6and ..... it does not work !!
22:58:40LinusNwonderful
22:58:45Pano-Manix6lol
22:58:49BCpoo
22:58:50LinusNi see two possibilities
22:58:54BCcan you see the drive letter?
22:59:10Pano-Manix6no
22:59:14BC(ie the drive is there, but not working)
22:59:14BCok
22:59:21LinusN1) the driver is screwed
22:59:40LinusN2) XP wants to assign the jukebox to a drive letter that is already occupied
22:59:50Pano-Manix6...
23:00
23:00:09midkreboot brb
23:00:11 Quit midk ("Leaving")
23:00:53 Join Smooth [0] (909510b8@ACBA6733.ipt.aol.com)
23:00:58LinusNthere is supposed to be a way to reassign the drive letters, but i don't know how
23:01:04Smoothhello
23:01:07LinusNhi
23:01:09Pano-Manix6hi
23:01:17BC3) dodgy usb cable
23:01:30LinusN4) broken jukebox
23:01:35Smoothive noticed on the ch8 emulator plugin the games run much faster on the flashed box than the normal firmware
23:01:45Pano-Manix6maybe 4)
23:01:48LinusNreally?
23:01:57Smoothyea
23:02:12Pano-Manix6flashed box ?
23:02:15Smooththe Breakout ch8 game plays much faster on a flashed box than a non-flashed box
23:02:17Smoothyes
23:02:26 Join midk [0] (~midk@c-24-18-39-204.client.comcast.net)
23:02:32LinusNis it the same version of rockbox then?
23:02:34[IDC]Dragonthis can't be
23:02:36Smoothdunno
23:02:39Smoothdidn't check the version]
23:02:56SmoothDoes the Gmini store its f/w on a flashchip?
23:03:07LinusNi don't think so
23:03:21LinusNwell it has one flashed firmware
23:03:32Smoothjust wondered if it was rockboxable if it loads it f/w like the old jukeboxes
23:03:32LinusNbut the updates are loaded from disk iirc
23:03:40Smoothok
23:03:50LinusNbut i may be wrong
23:03:55Smoothjust wondered
23:04:10Smoothwould like to get a gmini220 soon
23:04:13BCPano-Manix6: have you checked the cable?
23:04:35Pano-Manix6i worked before
23:04:42Pano-Manix6it*
23:05:20LinusNPano-Manix6: how are the batteries?
23:05:50LinusNBC: your gfx library doesn't compile on the player
23:06:01LinusNyou need some #ifdefs
23:06:03Pano-Manix6maybe 1/4
23:06:22LinusNtry recharging them and try again
23:06:28BCLinusN: thanks I will take care of that
23:07:31Pano-Manix6I'll do ...
23:08:23LinusNand try it in another computer
23:08:43Pano-Manix6and if I open it ... can i connect the HD to the PC ?
23:08:55BCPano-Manix6: do you have other usb devices that are working?
23:09:05Pano-Manix6lol
23:09:10Pano-Manix6k
23:09:13LinusNPano-Manix6: yes, you need a 2.5"->3.5" converter
23:09:36Pano-Manix6i'll try on another computer
23:09:45Pano-Manix6Pano-Manix6: yes, you need a 2.5"->3.5" converter <<< arf
23:10:00BClol
23:10:15Smoothclock plugin seems to work properly now
23:10:30BCbrb
23:10:35Pano-Manix6clock plugin ?
23:10:51LinusNPano-Manix6: a clock for the recorder model
23:10:51Smoothplugin that shows a clock on the lcd
23:11:13Smoothmikeholden's plugin, the clock
23:11:28midkthat'd mine.
23:12:15Smoothanyaw
23:12:18Smoothanyway
23:12:33 Join martial [0] (~martial@dyn-83-157-36-210.ppp.tiscali.fr)
23:12:35martialEHLO
23:12:44LinusNLEHO
23:13:15martialSorry for my poor english, i'm a french user :-)
23:13:18SmoothOLHE
23:13:25Smooth:)
23:13:55martialI wanna to know how to create a .jbm file for my gmini220 with my linux :-)
23:14:12martiali can't user MusicMatch under Debian !
23:14:27LinusNwhat's a .jbm file?
23:14:29Smoothuse windoes :)
23:14:35Smoothwindows
23:15:02martialArchos Gmini120 and Gmini220 use this file to navigate in mp3 files
23:15:15martialand list by artist,genre,album
23:15:28martialOnly MusicMatch can create this file..
23:15:44martialAnd, where is no version of MusicMatch for Linux :-(
23:17:06LinusNoh, what a loss :-)
23:17:46martialyes
23:18:03martialWhere an open firmware for gmini200 series ?
23:19:31 Join Saloky1 [0] (~Salokyn@AToulon-152-1-20-23.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr)
23:19:36zehmm...
23:19:50BCwhy not reverse engineer this file - can't be that involved?
23:19:52Saloky1hi everybody
23:19:57zeso a 3Ghz with 800mhz bus, or a 3.2Ghz with 400mhz bus
23:20:00zewhich is better? heh
23:21:32Smoothor which is better? a 2.2Ghz Pentium 4 or a 2.8Ghz Celeron?
23:21:56 Part LinusN
23:22:00 Join LinusN [200] (~linus@labb.contactor.se)
23:22:06Pano-Manix6800mhz bus
23:22:36martialBC, yes.
23:22:56Smoothwhat about the 2.2Ghz Pentium or the 2.8Ghz Celeron?
23:23:20BCI dont know if our batteries will be able to handle it
23:23:23Pano-Manix6celeron is the worth proc the world known
23:23:32Pano-Manix6do i reply to your question ? :P
23:23:57 Nick BC is now known as BC|coding (~bluechip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com)
23:23:57DBUGEnqueued KICK BC|coding
23:23:59Pano-Manix6lol
23:24:01 Quit midk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:24:19Smoothso you are saying the celeron will outperform the pentium?
23:24:35Pano-Manix6y
23:24:52Smootha 2.8ghz Celeron will outperform a 2.2 Pentium?
23:25:22Pano-Manix6celeron 2,2 Ghz can't emulate (correct word ??) correctly a Game boy advance
23:25:41Pano-Manix6so this i a shit
23:26:08Pano-Manix6a P4 is 1000 times better than a celeron
23:26:16Smoothwhy?
23:26:25Smooth2.8Ghz is fast
23:26:43BC|codingfwiw, intel's own documentation would disagree with you
23:26:50Pano-Manix6coz a P4 have a lot more of cache
23:27:16Pano-Manix6(do you understand ? i know i'm not very good in english :P)
23:27:59Smooththe Celeron goes up to 400Mhz FSB
23:28:18Pano-Manix6so u can test !
23:28:29Pano-Manix6if u don't believe me :D
23:28:37[IDC]DragonLinusN: the ROM start address is an uncomfortable issue
23:28:52Pano-Manix6I just said that a celeron 2,2Ghz is not a proc
23:29:02Smoothyea but im sure a 2.8Ghz Celeron will defeat a 2.0Ghz Pentium in terms of raw gigahertz
23:29:40Pano-Manix6but maybe a celeron 2,8 ... is good
23:29:53Pano-Manix6(it's hard to me saying that)
23:29:59Smoothmy pc has a 1.5Ghz pentium 4
23:29:59LinusN[IDC]Dragon: indeed
23:30:02Pano-Manix6i HATE celerons lol
23:30:35Smoothmy dad got a 3.0ghz pentium 4 laptop
23:30:56Pano-Manix6up :)
23:31:22Smooth((until the 8.0ghz Celeron appears))
23:31:23Smooth:)
23:31:33Pano-Manix6My 2600+ is up to 2300Mhz ...
23:31:40Pano-Manix6:)
23:32:05Pano-Manix68.0Ghz celeron = 4ghz P4
23:32:08Pano-Manix6;)
23:32:16Pano-Manix6in my mind
23:32:20Pano-Manix6lol
23:32:50Smoothso ur saying a computer with a Celeron processor is very slow?
23:32:57Pano-Manix6no
23:33:14Pano-Manix6but u can't do many things in the same time or you will crash
23:33:22Pano-Manix6(it's true)
23:34:11Smoothok
23:34:17Smoothmaybe the Archos uses a Celeron
23:34:18Smooth;-)
23:34:48BC|codinglol - no they have a decent processor
23:34:50BC|coding:D
23:35:12Pano-Manix6rahh i can't explain coz I don't have the words to ^^
23:35:40Pano-Manix6I think a PIII is better than a celeron :/
23:36:01[IDC]DragonLinusN: start should be 0x2011010
23:36:09LinusNfor fm too?
23:36:12[IDC]Dragonfor recorder,
23:36:30[IDC]Dragon0x2012010 for V2
23:36:34Pano-Manix6an athlon 1400+ is better than a celeron 2,2Ghz
23:36:43[IDC]Dragon0x2014010 for FM
23:36:44Smoothi reckon one day processors will be so powerful there will be no more need for graphics cards, everything will be software driven
23:37:04Pano-Manix6one day maybe
23:37:11Smoothyea
23:37:39Smooth:)
23:37:43BC|codingeverything is already software ...just that most of it lives in chips instead of on hard drives - rockbox for example
23:37:49[IDC]Dragonthe 16 bytes past the 4k sector are bor the bottloader header
23:37:58LinusNok
23:37:59[IDC]Dragons/bor/for
23:38:01Pano-Manix6can u tell me if i make an English fault ? :P
23:38:14Smoothok
23:38:20BC|codings/fault/error/
23:38:28LinusNs/u/you/
23:38:40LinusN:-)
23:38:44BC|codinglol :P
23:38:45Bagders/i/I ;-)
23:38:49Smoothso why should a hardware player need less power than a software player?
23:38:55Smoothif they are similar code?
23:39:31Pano-Manix6;)
23:39:58BC|codingwhen code is "shadowed" or "decompressed" to RAM, some RAM is used ...which means you have less RAM for MP3 buffer ...which means you have to spin the hdd up more often ...which takes a lot of power
23:40:10 Join midk [0] (~midk@c-24-18-39-204.client.comcast.net)
23:40:11Smoothok
23:40:13Smoothcool
23:40:25Smooththe terahertz processor has been made
23:40:29Smoothreading it on the intel sit
23:40:30Smoothee
23:40:31Smoothsite
23:40:51Pano-Manix61000 Ghz O_O
23:40:56Pano-Manix6wow
23:40:59BC|codingif you want raw processing power, do some research on the intelligence MPP computers
23:41:00Smoothyea
23:41:03Smooththere is a problem
23:41:06[IDC]Dragonstill no runtime results, e.g. from amiconn?
23:41:15LinusNno
23:41:20Smooththe terahertz processor chucks out the same amount of heat as a furnace
23:41:24BC|codingPETA-FLOPS of power
23:42:33Smoothlol
23:42:40Smoothexahertzs of power
23:42:41Smooth:)
23:43:34tpelliottI want PCs to get to the point where you can do CGI easily and you can create real looking pictures and animation from scratch without a lot of fiddling.
23:43:43 Quit martial ("Leaving")
23:44:02Pano-Manix6Why am I so idiot?
23:44:31LinusNyou tell me :-)
23:44:56Smoothmi
23:45:10BC|codings/idiot/stupid
23:45:12BC|codinglol
23:45:25BC|codingoh sweet irony
23:45:26LinusNor: why am I such an idiot?
23:45:28Pano-Manix6thanks :D
23:45:37Smoothlol
23:45:41Smoothke
23:46:06Smoothmikeholden
23:46:09CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
23:46:09*midk guesses that an h comes next
23:46:10LinusNtime to launch the spelling bot :-)
23:46:16midkhaha
23:46:17midkthat's me
23:46:22midki'm the grammar bot too
23:46:27Smoothlol
23:46:27Pano-Manix6This is the better way to improve my english :P
23:46:28Smoothok
23:46:42midkgrammar bot overload, commencing shutdown now
23:46:51Smoothrestart
23:46:56midkyes sir. restarted.
23:46:59Pano-Manix6lol
23:47:03Smoothno, hibernate!
23:47:05LinusNAOL alert! shut down grammar bot!
23:47:07midkhibernating.
23:47:12midkDIE GRAMMAR BOT
23:47:16midkoh..
23:47:33midkno!
23:47:35midklive grammar bot.
23:47:38BC|codingthe grammar bot is female?
23:47:39Pano-Manix6lol
23:47:42Smoothyes
23:47:48midk:[
23:47:50Smooththe grammar bot is female
23:47:54midkok fine
23:48:04LinusNdas grammar bot?
23:48:10LinusNden grammar bot?
23:48:12Pano-Manix6das
23:48:15Pano-Manix6lol
23:48:18Smoothsourceforge bot
23:48:22LinusNder?
23:48:24midkaka dead bot
23:48:29midkde?
23:48:31midkdie*?
23:48:43Pano-Manix6c'est le nominatif singulier donc ......
23:48:44Pano-Manix6DER
23:48:50midkderder
23:49:12Pano-Manix6der grammar bot
23:49:17LinusNs/c'est/it is/
23:49:23Pano-Manix6looool
23:49:24LinusNs/le/the/
23:49:25Smoothspeak properly everyone
23:49:37[IDC]Dragongoodnight
23:49:40 Quit [IDC]Dragon ()
23:49:41LinusN[IDC]Dragon: nite
23:49:42BC|codingnite dude
23:49:50Smootharchos no longer make the fm recorder :(
23:49:57Pano-Manix6it is the sigular nominatif(?) so ... it's DER ^^
23:50:08Pano-Manix6singular*
23:50:36Pano-Manix6raahhhh may english is so bad :'(
23:50:38Pano-Manix6:P
23:50:45Pano-Manix6my*
23:52:15Smoothnedlohekim
23:53:50Smoothdamn these mach 3 razors
23:54:09BC|codingyeah, that was a great bit of marketting wasn't it?
23:54:25Smooththe blades don't last very long
23:54:31Smooththe blue gelstrip wears out fast
23:54:43LinusNthat's the whole point
23:54:48Smooth why?
23:54:53BC|codingthey're for people who don't know how to shave and have too much money
23:55:02LinusNthey are more expensive, and they don't last long
23:55:09Smoothlol
23:55:14Smoothi'll get a cutthroat instead
23:55:44BC|codingI've found the best compromise is cheap "bic" razors, one will last me about 3-4 weeks
23:55:59Smoothlol
23:56:09Smooththey are deadly
23:56:18BC|codingmy point precisely
23:56:21LinusNif you shave once every 4 weeks, that is
23:56:23Pano-Manix6lol
23:56:25BC|codingfor people who don't know how to shave
23:56:26BC|codinglol
23:56:43BC|codingyou can shave with a decent knife if you know how
23:56:46Smoothlol
23:56:49Pano-Manix6lol
23:56:51Pano-Manix6opinel
23:56:52Smoothi'll get a Quattro then
23:56:55Smoothhas 4 blades in it
23:57:02Pano-Manix6laguiole
23:57:06Smoothbehind this safety cage
23:57:15BC|codingkeewwwlll, four blades MUST be better
23:57:20LinusNreminds me of the hilarious Saturday Night Live parody
23:57:29LinusNwith like 30 blades
23:57:32Pano-Manix6a good katana by Hatori Enzo ?
23:57:33BC|codinglol
23:57:57BC|codingnot sure i'd like to try and shave with a thousand fold katana
23:58:05Smoothive heard that gillette are working on this new razor
23:58:09Pano-Manix6^^
23:58:21Smooththe blades are made of hardened sugar, so they dissolve as they wear out
23:58:38midktasty
23:58:52BC|codingthere is a great razor that shaves with ultrasonics, was invented as part of a competition, ?"never"? wears out

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