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#rockbox log for 2004-08-26

10:00
10:05:43***Started Dancer V4.16
10:05:43***Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667
10:05:43***Logfile for #rockbox started
10:05:43***Server message 501: 'logbot :Unknown MODE flag'
10:05:43Mode"logbot :+i" by logbot
10:05:43 Join logbot [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
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10:05:43 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
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10:06:28DEBUGReceived signal 15 (SIGTERM), terminating (snapshot: fplrun.c line 385)
10:06:28***Cleanup
10:06:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:06:28***Exit
10:06:39***Started Dancer V4.16
10:06:39***Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667
10:06:39***Logfile for #rockbox started
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10:06:42DEBUGReceived signal 2 (SIGINT), terminating (snapshot: fplrun.c line 385)
10:06:42***Cleanup
10:06:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:06:42***Exit
10:07:41***Started Dancer V4.16
10:07:41***Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667
10:07:41***Logfile for #rockbox started
10:07:41***Server message 501: 'logbot :Unknown MODE flag'
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10:07:58midkhi logbot
10:08:17midkhe's still busted
10:08:30midkoh
10:08:31midkcool
10:09:27 Quit logbot_ (Remote closed the connection)
10:11:01Zagorall users and other stored info is gone, this is a recompile. i'll see if/when we get the backup back.
10:11:23Zagorthe logging is the main use anyway
10:11:37midkyes, who cares. welcome back logbot.
10:11:58midkZagor, you should give him new features, such as, make him say hi to everyone who comes in
10:11:59midk;)
10:12:08dwihno:)
10:12:12Zagorhe can do that, but it's too annoying
10:12:55*Bagder agrees
10:12:57midki had at one point told klient to say "hi" to everyone who came in, via a privmsg, without realizing it until a few days later when someone responded
10:13:41Zagorthat'll get you kickbanned in some parts of the world...
10:14:13midkread: without realizing it.
10:14:15midk:)
10:14:35DEBUGParse error in OnPrivmsg(from = "[IDC]Dragon!~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se", line = "#rockbox :does anybody know what's inside a Neuros?") (snapshot: server.c line 191)
10:14:42midkelectronics.
10:14:51Zagora texas instruments dsp. no cpu.
10:15:12Zagorno free compiler available
10:15:23ZagorTI charges $6000 for theirs...
10:15:43DEBUGParse error in OnPrivmsg(from = "[IDC]Dragon!~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se", line = "#rockbox :how do they run their open source then?") (snapshot: server.c line 191)
10:15:56Zagorwell they open the source. presto, open source :)
10:16:09Zagori don't think they expect a lot of contributions
10:16:43Zagoryet i think it's still good of them to open the code
10:30:16DEBUGParse error in OnPrivmsg(from = "[IDC]Dragon!~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se", line = "#rockbox :ACTION browses the Neuros sources") (snapshot: server.c line 191)
10:34:16DEBUGParse error in OnPrivmsg(from = "[IDC]Dragon!~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se", line = "#rockbox :they seem to support all FAT types (12,16,32)") (snapshot: server.c line 191)
10:34:57Zagoryes, since they have small flash units.
10:36:36DEBUGParse error in OnPrivmsg(from = "[IDC]Dragon!~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se", line = "#rockbox :haven't seen long filename support yet...") (snapshot: server.c line 191)
10:37:27DEBUGReceived signal 15 (SIGTERM), terminating (snapshot: fplrun.c line 385)
10:37:27***Cleanup
10:37:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:37:27***Exit
10:37:40***Started Dancer V4.16
10:37:40***Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667
10:37:40***Logfile for #rockbox started
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10:37:41***Server message 477: 'logbot #rockbox :[freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup'
10:38:30Zagori skipped fat12 and -16 support on purpose since it makes the code much messier
10:39:33[IDC]DragonI guess nobody wants to format 20 GB with FAT16
10:39:47oxygen77fat12 is a real mess
10:41:00[IDC]Dragonthe neuros has malloc! (drool, envy)
10:41:10Bagderhehe
10:41:15Bagderwe had malloc too once ;-)
10:41:16[IDC]Dragonno, I try not to start the discussion
10:41:21Zagorhaha
10:41:51Zagorthat means they buffer less than they could
10:42:16Bagderunless they buffer "chunked" in several pieces
10:42:37Zagor...in which case malloc would mostly fail. somehow i doubt it :)
10:43:21Bagdertrue
10:43:35[IDC]Dragonand they have pipes
10:43:43Bagdergosh
10:44:17Bagderhow much ram does it feature?
10:44:29Zagori don't remember
10:49:08[IDC]Dragonseems to be a database player?
10:50:02BagderI think it is
10:50:33*Bagder recalls a review on the list
10:53:48Zagori don't know if it was neuros or rio who said usb mass-storage was a lousy way to transfer mp3 files to a harddisk player...
10:58:03dwihno*grumble*
10:58:05[IDC]Dragonthe USB stack by TI seems to be included, nice
10:58:14dwihnomass-storage is the way!
10:58:55[IDC]Dragonit says "This is proprietary information, not to be published −− TI INTERNAL DATA"
10:59:36[IDC]Dragonso much for the problems of device vendors with open source
11:00
11:00:22dwihnoAny ideas why major hardware companies don't like the open source ideal?
11:02:52Zagordwihno: because open source is very new and the bosses are very old
11:04:15[IDC]Dragonthe actual codecs are not in, just the interfacing, like I expected
11:04:47Zagoryes. i asked about that and they said are releasing the vorbis source but can't release the others
11:05:58[IDC]Dragonprobably they don't have the sources, just a TI lib
11:06:12Zagorvery possible
11:06:24dwihnoI'd guess that as well
11:06:55[IDC]Dragonyes, there are various libs
11:07:29[IDC]Dragonfor mp3, ogg, usb and some I don't recognize
11:07:40Zagorwma is one
11:07:47dwihnoAre there any open source firmwares? (apart from openneo, avos etc.)
11:07:47[IDC]Dragonno full USB source code :-(
11:07:56Zagordwihno: no
11:08:13[IDC]DragonI don't see wma
11:08:41Zagoropen_src_fw\ccs_projects\Main_APP\Neuros200\LIBs\wma_tni_abr_ndrm_far_rel.l54
11:09:28[IDC]Dragonah, I grep'ed for *.lib
11:10:13[IDC]Dragonany idea what mpr is?
11:10:18Zagormp3pro i guess
11:10:34[IDC]Dragonmakes sense, yes
11:10:52Zagormyfi is the radio broadcast code
11:13:46[IDC]DragonI haven't found technical docs on their page, although the brag to even release the schematics
11:14:03[IDC]Dragons/the/they
11:16:47dwihnoZagor: that's rather trist :(
11:17:57Zagoryes, but this is what we have asked for and all we can reasonably expect to get. neuros opens up everything they have, but they cannot control 3rd parties.
11:18:18Zagori believe the schematics are on the way
11:20:30dwihnoZagor: TI papers on the neuros are subjects to NDA's?
11:20:38Zagori don't know
11:20:53Zagorknowing TI, i wouldn't be surprised
11:20:59dwihno:-[
11:21:30Zagorthat's the really sad part, that the first company that actually opens their code chose such a closed hardware platform
11:22:21dwihnoOne step forward, two steps back, I guess
11:25:25[IDC]DragonZagor: _you_ did ask Neuros for something?
11:25:40Zagoryes, i have discussed the open source issue with them
11:25:51*oxygen77 is away: chui pas l
11:25:51Zagorfor quite a while, i might add :)
11:27:44dwihnocare to tell what the issue is?
11:27:50dwihnoor is it hush hush?
11:28:12Zagorwell the issue *was* that they didn't release the source but said they would
11:28:44Zagorcurrently there's no issue i'm aware of
11:28:47dwihnomkay
11:28:58dwihnoUse the source, luke!
11:29:32Zagorlunch, see you later
11:30:09dwihnoenjoy!
12:00
12:07:41 Join webguest14 [0] (~527a5712@labb.contactor.se)
12:07:43 Quit webguest14 (Client Quit)
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12:13:22midksleepy time, nite nite.
12:13:56Co2hello
12:14:05Co2i just burned my juckbox :-)
12:14:24Co2i opened it, and i see which part burned
12:14:25dwihnoSo why are you happy then?
12:14:46Co2but i can't read the component ref
12:15:06Co2it is not that bad .....
12:15:31Co2that should be possible to replace that component
12:15:54Co2i have to go lunch very soon, i ll try to find some help when i m back
12:20:00 Quit Co2 ("CGI:IRC")
12:23:49 Nick midk is now known as midk|sleep (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
12:23:51midk|sleepbed, nite
12:37:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:00
13:02:09 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
13:09:55*Bagder cleans feature-requests
13:10:08[IDC]Dragonwhich ones?
13:10:15Bagderall over
13:10:19[IDC]Dragonany "best of"?
13:10:35BagderI'm mostly rejecting the weird ones and identifying duplicates
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13:24:49dwihnoBagder: tell us about your personal favorites
13:25:48Bagderyou mean what features I actually would like to see implemented?
13:26:10dwihnoYes
13:26:14dwihnoAnd the most weird :)
13:26:50Bagderactually, I think all current feature requests ask for very narrow border-line features
13:28:04BagderI've rejected perhaps 4-5 requests for "rockbox to player XXXX"
13:30:49BagderI want the fixed/rejected ones closed soon too to make them disappear from the regular page
13:30:55Bagderit'll make a better overview
13:31:10Bagder545 frigging requests right now
13:31:27dwihnoSheeesh
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14:00
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14:37:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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15:00
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16:00
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16:37:43***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:40:08amiconn[IDC]Dragon: r u there?
16:56:36*oxygen77 is away: chui pas l
17:00
17:08:04[IDC]Dragonamiconn: now I'm here
17:11:15 Quit mbr (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
17:11:15NSplitleguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
17:12:38NHealleguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net
17:12:38NJoinmbr [0] (~mb@stz-softwaretechnik.com)
17:12:50lImbusOffTopic: Anybody ever played with dietlinux ? (linux based on dietlibc)
17:14:02amiconn[IDC]Dragon: I'd like to extend the wiki by an article about building voice files, attaching the necessary files. Would you mind if I do so (including my modified wavtrim.c)?
17:14:50[IDC]Dragonwhy should I mind?
17:15:06[IDC]Dragonyou're most welcome to go ahead
17:15:13amiconnThe same way, I'd suggest to put the flash packages into the wiki...
17:15:51[IDC]Dragonthe big 3 were objecting this, since it contains copyrighted material
17:16:15amiconnThe archos fw?
17:16:23[IDC]Dragonso, we left it on my site, in my responsibility
17:16:35[IDC]Dragonyes
17:18:32amiconnIt seems that mini-rockbox (usb/ charging/ firmware loader) should become a reality soon. This would solve more than 1 problem.
17:19:36[IDC]Dragonyes, indeed. But I still think beople are mor comfortable with having the original firmware at hand
17:19:48[IDC]Dragonpeople are more
17:21:40amiconnAnother thing: did you already try my "memguard" patch on the target?
17:23:37[IDC]Dragonno
17:23:54[IDC]Dragon(you published it this morning)
17:24:36[IDC]Dragondid you try mo rotated font? ;-)
17:24:44[IDC]Dragons/mo/my
17:25:48amiconnDito no. I'd be much more interested in your convbdf changes
17:26:31[IDC]Dragonnow, or when it's ready?
17:29:51amiconnThe thing is that the pre-built rotated font isn't all that useful without the ability to rebuild it (other than proofing that it works, and seeing how much space is saved).
17:30:23[IDC]Dragonproofing and checking is the current step
17:31:01[IDC]Dragonbut I'm (slowly) working on convbdf for the general case
17:32:23amiconnHaving only the default font pre-rotated is only half the benefit. Did you check if you could recycle rotleft() for convbdf?
17:33:36 Join bagawk [0] (Lee@ACC3126E.ipt.aol.com)
17:34:00[IDC]DragonI checked, looks pretty much like my code
17:35:54amiconnrotleft() does work for the general case
17:36:25bagawkamiconn: memguard?
17:37:36amiconnOn a related topic: the docs say any font <= 16 pixels high will work - this isn't completely true. In fact, any height <= 64 should work, as long as the font is small enough to fit into the buffer
17:38:37amiconnbagawk: Yes. It uses the SH1's "user break controller" to catch illegal memory accesses (e.g. caused by uninitialized pointers)
17:38:50bagawkohh
17:39:16bagawki remember you talking about the user break controler earlier
17:40:30 Quit bagawk ("umount /dev/brain")
17:42:12*oxygen77 is back (gone 00:45:36)
18:00
18:00:37[IDC]Dragonamiconn: the font has to be <= 16 pixel _width_
18:00:56[IDC]Dragonbecause of convbdf restrictions
18:37:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:59:17amiconn[IDC]Dragon: This morning you told that you have a fix available for the bug I discovered (id3tags->id3.elapsed). Do you intend to commit this soon?
19:00
19:01:20[IDC]Dragonno, I don't have a fix, I only prepared the fuctions to do it the "clean" way
19:01:57 Join mecraw [0] (~lmarlow@69.2.235.2)
19:02:27[IDC]Dragonand don't remember if just too many places to fix scared me away, or if it was something more fundamental
19:03:48amiconnHmm.
19:09:11amiconnBtw: I tried adding a stride parameter to lcd_bitmap(). While it worked, the binary size increased, so it's no use committing.
19:18:33 Quit ade| (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:22:53[IDC]Dragondo we have a proportional font taller than 8 pixel?
19:24:00amiconnYes, at least 2: xtal-14 and chicago12, which it's based on
19:24:16[IDC]Dragonthanks
19:26:22[IDC]Dragonrotating convbdf seems to work for the general case, creating C output
19:26:50amiconnNice :)
19:27:15[IDC]Dragonout bitmap format is 8-pixel row-wise, correct?
19:27:48[IDC]Dragonwith the bottom part of a 16 pixel high font being the second half of the bytes
19:28:22[IDC]Dragonor is it interleaved, completing the columns first?
19:29:10amiconnyup. It's rockbox native bitmap format. I put a description of it into firmware/drivers/lcd-recorder.c (lines 438 ff)
19:30:53[IDC]DragonOK
19:32:48[IDC]Dragoncorrection: I still got a bug in convbdf :(
19:34:02 Part oxygen77 ("Cho")
19:40:59amiconn[IDC]Dragon: I found some places where I could save some code size :)
19:45:28[IDC]Dragongood :) Trying to compensate for the ~500 bytes?
19:45:53[IDC]Dragon(now convbdf C output is OK)
19:46:09[IDC]Dragonnext is the new font format
19:46:53[IDC]Dragonyour xtal-14 is a good test case
19:47:02amiconnyep ;) Declaring local constant arrays static does almost always save space. There were some non-static ones
19:47:57 Join bagawk [0] (Lee@ACC51C2D.ipt.aol.com)
19:47:59[IDC]Dragonoops, that shouldn't be
19:48:15amiconnIf these are declared non-static, the compiler allocates them on the stack (is if they were non-constant) and generates additional code for initialization.
19:48:26[IDC]Dragonnon-static means it has to be assembled on the stack at runtime
19:48:40[IDC]Dragon;-)
19:48:47amiconnIn _some_ cases this is smaller (sparse array)
19:49:51amiconn..but using static is still faster then (no init code)
19:49:56[IDC]Dragonhaving xtal-14 as the system font looks funny
19:50:13[IDC]Dragon(that's how I tested my output)
19:53:18*[IDC]Dragon flexes
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20:05:39 Nick AciD` is now known as AciD (~gni@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net)
20:07:21 Quit bagawk ("umount /dev/brain")
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20:29:39amiconnGrr, there are some places which I overlooked while const'ing...
20:30:22 Quit gromit`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:31:26 Nick midknight2k3 is now known as midk (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
20:37:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:38:48amiconnAnyone knows where "str" is defined (not "STR"). I can't find it...
20:41:59amiconnAh, found it. I always forget about that dynamically built source files...
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20:44:12_aLFhi
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21:02:05 Nick midk is now known as midk|doom3 (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
21:04:49[IDC]Dragonnew font format works!
21:07:01 Join Nibbler [0] (~andrer@port-212-202-73-41.dynamic.qsc.de)
21:09:20amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Even more nice :) I guess the font files become substantially smaller
21:11:42[IDC]Dragonlike half the size
21:12:07[IDC]Dragonwe can probably reduce the font buffer size
21:14:59amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Just stumbled upon it: there was a discussion on the ml about the ata standby of the hd in usb mode. Rockbox initializes the disk to not enter standby mode itself, so if the OS doesn't do that, the disk keeps spinning.
21:16:08[IDC]Dragonmaybe some disks ignore that?
21:16:09amiconnI now found that usb.c initializes ata before handing control to the usb bridge. So how about a parameter to the ata init, which would enable standby mode when entering usb, but not when init'ing for rockbox?
21:16:50[IDC]Dragonbetter ask Linus, there were some issues with the spindown
21:16:51amiconn(still looking through the code for non-static local consts)
21:17:09[IDC]Dragonhow much did you gather?
21:17:45amiconnIt's not that much yet - about 220 bytes :(
21:21:38[IDC]Dragonfont.c became a lot smaller, too
21:21:46[IDC]Dragonnot much left in there
21:24:40[IDC]Dragongoing home, maybe I'll commit it tonight
21:24:44[IDC]Dragoncu
21:24:49amiconnOk, bye
21:25:02 Quit [IDC]Dragon ("CGI:IRC")
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21:30:34 Nick midk|doom3 is now known as midk (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
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22:28:57 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD9512D76.dip.t-dialin.net)
22:30:25amiconnhi again
22:30:42[IDC]Dragonhi from home sweet home
22:30:56[IDC]Dragonjust starting up
22:36:22[IDC]Dragonshoot, I seem to have deleted my compiler exe
22:37:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:51:42[IDC]Dragonah, fixed it
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22:59:26 Join [1]lImbus [0] (lImbus@207-41.240.81.adsl.skynet.be)
22:59:37[1]lImbusoops
22:59:52[1]lImbuslooks like I forgot to shut down the irc client at work.
23:00
23:00:15[1]lImbusbut that means as well the http-tunnel is still living !
23:00:47 Nick [1]lImbus is now known as lImbus_ (lImbus@207-41.240.81.adsl.skynet.be)
23:08:18amiconn[IDC]Dragon: I figured out the exact positions of the null pointer accesses in mpeg.c (line 703 and line 731). I still have to understand how that id3tags[] business is supposed to work to come up with a fix
23:11:56amiconnPlus, I have a small fix for memguard.patch (no longer breaks the sim ;) )
23:12:17[IDC]Dragonhang on a sec...
23:17:40[IDC]Dragon(mpeg.c) yes, this is strange, since id3tags is an array
23:18:01[IDC]Dragonif the index is within bounds, the write should be OK
23:19:55[IDC]Dragonoh no, it's an array of pointers
23:21:09[IDC]Dragona circular buffer of 16 tracks
23:21:26[IDC]Dragonreset to 0 if free
23:21:57[IDC]Dragonso playback_tick() should check for validity
23:23:39[IDC]Dragonplayback_tick is the part I don't like, this is where the playback engine is not seperate from the data source (mpeg.c)
23:34:12[IDC]DragonI colored the builds
23:34:19amiconn:(
23:37:46 Join webguest27 [0] (~c35d210a@labb.contactor.se)
23:39:03midkhaha
23:39:14amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Didn't you get those warnings locally?
23:39:52 Join webguest52 [0] (~c35d210d@labb.contactor.se)
23:39:52 Quit webguest27 (Client Quit)
23:42:14 Quit webguest52 (Client Quit)
23:42:26midkwell, gotta run, back later
23:42:37amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Fixing lcd-recorder.c is easy...
23:43:29lImbus_WHAT IS labb.contactor.se ? I thought it's bagders, zagors, linusNs workplace, but everbody seems to get accesses through them. even people I saw with german connections !
23:44:08midkthe cgi irc script
23:44:16amiconnlImbus_: These are the CGI::IRC users
23:44:53amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Fixing gray_putsxy.c done too...
23:44:58lImbus_midk,
23:45:02lImbus_grrr
23:45:55 Quit midk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:46:00lImbus_pfft.
23:46:03lImbus_not my day
23:46:46zeekoelol
23:46:56zeekoein #avos he said he was leaving
23:47:17 Join bagawk [0] (Lee@ACC49EB3.ipt.aol.com)
23:47:33 Join [IpL]hattori{t} [0] (vinc@207-41.240.81.adsl.skynet.be)
23:47:47lImbus_hi brother
23:47:53[IpL]hattori{t}jo man
23:47:59zeekoew00t
23:48:07bagawkhi
23:48:11zeekoehi
23:48:17zeekoeare you new?
23:48:27zeekoeor is it just me
23:48:36[IpL]hattori{t}well iam limbus' bro...
23:48:44zeekoeok
23:48:45zeekoe:)
23:48:51[IpL]hattori{t}dont hav a rockbox... sry
23:48:53lImbus_hattori is my real brother. he sitting next to me (65 cm) and I'm showing im irc ;-)
23:50:13bagawklol
23:50:13lImbus_[IpL]hattori{t} test !
23:50:13[IpL]hattori{t}jepp discovering irc today :-)
23:50:14zeekoelol
23:50:16amiconn[IDC]Dragon: r u there?
23:50:16lImbus_but there seems to be a prob when we have the same IP. he#s not seeing all msgs
23:50:35bagawk-[IpL]hattori{t}- VERSION HydraIRC v0.3.126 (12/February/2004) by Dominic Clifton aka Hydra - #HydraIRC on EFNet
23:50:39bagawkhydrairc?
23:50:43bagawkweirdd
23:50:57amiconnbagawk: What's weird with it?
23:51:00[IpL]hattori{t}why is that weird?
23:51:16bagawknever hear dof it
23:51:54lImbus_small one. good one
23:52:10[IpL]hattori{t}... i dont know all the oter progs.. limbus "gave" it me...
23:52:28[IpL]hattori{t}lImbus_ test
23:52:42bagawkthat tabs like thing on the right looks good on the screenshot i am looking at
23:53:13bagawk(atleast for people that use more than one network)
23:53:29bagawki don't use other networks often
23:53:29[IpL]hattori{t}cu guys!
23:53:40 Part [IpL]hattori{t}
23:53:41lImbus_yes, i think may be a good thing for ber-irc'er
23:53:41bagawkjust efnet every now and then
23:54:17amiconnrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
23:54:32lImbus_amiconn purring ?
23:54:41bagawkamiconn: how much space is the new font format saving?
23:55:36 Join AciD` [0] (~gni@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net)
23:55:41 Join limbus_on_cgiirc [0] (~51f029cf@labb.contactor.se)
23:56:19amiconnlimbus_on_cgiirc: Want to confuse midk ;) He isn't here :-P
23:57:11[IDC]Dragonamiconn: I'm back
23:57:24limbus_on_cgiircno, just checking
23:57:47amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Did you get my comments about fixed warnings?
23:58:00[IDC]Dragonhave you committed something?
23:58:01zeekoelimbus_on_cgiirc: your name is to long, it screws up my screen :o(
23:58:51amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Not yet, since there is one warning left
23:58:57[IDC]Dragonlocally, I haven't seen warnings

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