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#rockbox log for 2004-09-12

00:08:51 Quit CHubaca3256984 (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:16:29Zagorcvs.uclinux.org does not contain the latest code :(
00:17:34bagawkZagor, what are you working with uclinux for?
00:17:40bagawkthe archos? :)
00:18:10Zagori just want to look at the code. if they have support for some of the devices (such as audio), it will contain useful information.
00:19:16Zagorso now I'm checking out their entire cvs repository :)
00:23:24Zagorwhee! uClinux-2.0.x/drivers/char/m5249audio.c
00:25:09pikewhats that for?
00:25:28Zagorit's good to look at when debugging our own audio driver
00:29:20 Part amiconn
00:31:51 Quit methangas (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Get hot chicks here!")
00:33:02Zagorbed time. night all.
00:33:04 Quit Zagor ("Client exiting")
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01:00
01:26:09bagawkbye bye
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02:36:15 Join OPP [0] (~OPP@adsl-69-208-190-148.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)
02:36:18OPPhello
02:39:02kaboofaHi.
02:42:12OPPany place where i can get indepth info about new gmini
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06:17:38 Join ker0zene [0] (~jakea@netblock-66-245-209-148.dslextreme.com)
06:18:11ker0zeneI just popped in to say that I love what you guys are doing, good luck with the work
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08:05:23 Quit midk ("just STOP it arspy")
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09:00
09:29:46pikeI made this post to the Misticriver forums: http://eurodanceparty.is.dreaming.org/visit_djveryrelentless.8m.com_because_dj-very_is_the_best.php?clipid=d109112004 I felt I could say what I feel since I'm not affiliated with either you or Iriverlounge...
09:30:19pikelol.. why does my clipboard screw up.. thats not the correct link, here it is: http://www.misticriver.net/boards/showthread.php?p=41484#post41484
09:52:33 Join amiconn [0] (~jens@pD95D1415.dip.t-dialin.net)
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10:00
10:01:24 Join R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@152-248-30-217.kgts.ru)
10:03:26 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD9E344BC.dip.t-dialin.net)
10:05:26[IDC]Dragonmorning Jens
10:05:35amiconnmorning Jörg
10:05:47[IDC]Dragonno Ondio yesterday, I guess?
10:05:49amiconnStill no Ondio here :(
10:05:56[IDC]Dragontomorrow then
10:06:36amiconnWell, this is not that bad - at least I could complete some other stuff :|
10:07:12amiconnCurrently I'm doing extensive recording tests
10:07:41amiconnListening to the very same CD over and over :/
10:08:02[IDC]Dragonhow about a pattern fill,to rule out file system problems?
10:08:07amiconnStill no toslink -> electrical adapter though
10:08:31[IDC]DragonI got plenty of those :-/
10:08:58amiconnFor a file system test, I even plan to use the RNG, with the same seed for writing and read-compare
10:09:12[IDC]Dragonthe slow one?
10:09:33[IDC]Dragonor BCs?
10:10:12amiconnYesterday I asked at 2 local electronics stores for that adapter - they wanted 60,- € and 80,- €, respectively. One of them even didn't have it on stock
10:10:32amiconnThat means I'll buy the parts and solder myself
10:11:07amiconnNot BCs RNG; either the rockbox one or my own from the grayscale lib
10:11:17[IDC]Dragonyou can get the TORX173 at Reichelt for sure, or maybe Conrad
10:12:16[IDC]Dragonneeds 5V and a resistor divider to get 75 Ohm output at 0.5V
10:12:20amiconnYes, reichelt has them for € 3.65 iirc, but this involves ordering.
10:12:40[IDC]Dragonplus a coupling capacitor to get it DC free
10:12:58amiconnSegor has them for € 4.20, and I can go there. This is even near my working place
10:13:06[IDC]Dragonok
10:13:28amiconnWhile we are at it - do you have schematics for the reverse direction too?
10:13:45[IDC]Dragoncinch to TOSLINK?
10:13:50amiconnyup
10:14:00[IDC]Dragonthat's more tricky
10:14:21amiconnNot that I need it now, but it would be nice to have a full converter
10:14:21[IDC]Dragonbecause you somehow have to regain a TTL signal
10:14:35[IDC]Dragonno, I don't
10:14:44amiconnA comparator should be able to do that
10:14:49[IDC]Dragonbut I'm sure it's easy to find
10:15:12[IDC]Dragonremember the signal is DC-free
10:15:33amiconnyes
10:16:15amiconnThe 0.5V - is that peak-peak, or only one peak?
10:16:31amiconn(i.e. do I have to divide by 10 or 20)?
10:16:38[IDC]Dragonpp, divide by 10
10:16:48[IDC]Dragonbut the level is not critical
10:16:52amiconnok
10:18:01amiconnI guess we'll get the recording going on the Ondio straight away, as soon as we have mmc access
10:18:13[IDC]Dragonthey perhaps use zero-crossing detectors, don't care for the level
10:18:31[IDC]DragonMMC is the key, yes
10:18:50[IDC]Dragonwithout, it's kind of limited ;-)
10:19:09amiconnThe recording transfer routines in the recorder v1 and the ondio sp (!) firmwares are the very same
10:19:38amiconnCompletely unopütimized, btw
10:19:51[IDC]Dragonhave you disassembled something?
10:20:01[IDC]Dragonor just talking about the pins?
10:20:32amiconnsh2d -sh1
10:20:56[IDC]Dragonand you fond the routines? Impressive!
10:21:04amiconnAnd then searching for 0x04000000, simple
10:21:20[IDC]Dragonparallel, aha
10:21:29amiconnI also found a part of the mmc driver...
10:21:47[IDC]Dragonlet me guess how...
10:21:47amiconn...and the bitswap
10:22:04amiconnThe bitswap is also table lookup, unoptimized
10:23:47[IDC]Dragonour fastest is also a lookup
10:25:31amiconnYes, but ours is much faster. Even my 3-stage swap without lookup is much faster than the archos one
10:25:47[IDC]Dragon;-)
10:26:17[IDC]Dragonhave you seen if they use DMA?
10:26:18amiconn...and it needs less space (contrary to our optimized table-lookup swapping)
10:26:28amiconnDMA for what?
10:26:56amiconnmmc?
10:27:09amiconnDon't know yet, have to look
10:27:52[IDC]Dragonanyway, it's not very useful to peek at bad code
10:28:48amiconnNo that I plan to use anything of it (and we're not allowed to do that), but it can be useful to verify addresses etc
10:28:55amiconn*Not
10:32:41amiconnThey don't use dma, swapping every byte directly before transmission, resp. directly after receiving
10:33:28[IDC]Dragonand poll for byte arrival, or within an interrupt?
10:34:30 Quit R3nTiL ()
10:34:44[IDC]Dragon(I think Hitachi made a mistake with their sync mode, since SPI is the other way round)
10:35:42amiconnLooks like polling, as this is not an interrupt routine
10:36:05amiconnSame goes for (at least one) routine calling it
10:36:11[IDC]DragonI'm sure we can do better ;-)
10:36:27[IDC]Dragonbut not necessarily in the first shot
10:37:00amiconnI plan to reuse the bitswap we already have, and swap sector-wise
10:37:13[IDC]Dragonyes, I thought so too
10:38:07 Join Spadulous [0] (~phat@ppp144-187.lns1.mel2.internode.on.net)
10:39:55amiconnMmcs support multi-sector reading, and from the first glance it seems that there is not limit on the number of sectors you can request at once
10:40:54amiconnStill, every sector has its own checksum (a standard CCITT CRC16), so the transfer has to be handles sector wise
10:41:12 Quit midk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:43:05[IDC]Dragonthe CRC in the debug menu should be a CCITT CRC16
10:43:20[IDC]Dragonso we should make a module from that
10:43:34[IDC]Dragonthen it can be reused at verious places
10:43:46[IDC]Dragonvarious
10:43:59*amiconn looks if this is the same polynomial
10:44:35[IDC]Dragonbut it's not the fastest, with only 4 bit lookup
10:44:44[IDC]Dragonwas optimized for size
10:45:28[IDC]Dragonis the CRC mandatory?
10:45:31amiconnHmm. can't figure whether this is the same polynomial.
10:45:33[IDC]Dragon(for writing)
10:45:55[IDC]Dragonthe first word should be the polymomial
10:46:16amiconnIt seems that we can go without, but I have yet to find a description of the mmc parameter registers
10:46:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:47:08[IDC]Dragonis it stored on the card, or just generated for transmission?
10:47:30amiconnThe routine in the debug menu is 0x1021, but for the mmc one I only have a term: x^16 + x^12 + x^5 + 1
10:47:31[IDC]Dragonin the latter case, it doesn't really help
10:49:14amiconnCRC is optional, and it is for transfer
10:49:29[IDC]Dragonour transfer is very local
10:49:44[IDC]Dragonso we shouldn't expect problems there
10:49:52amiconnJust found the command, even: CRC_ON_OFF (CMD59)
10:51:07amiconnI agree that we can leave this out. The CRC bytes are still transferred when CRC is off, but they are dontcare then
10:53:16amiconnThe only thing where the crc is _required_ is when switching the card into spi mode, but this command is static, so we can simply precalculate it
10:55:05amiconnAnother matter: any progress in analyzing the hardware?
10:56:44[IDC]DragonI made minor updates yesterday
10:57:34amiconnYes, found that. Still no working usb mode :(
10:57:46[IDC]Dragonchecked the AND levels in all 4 cases:
10:58:04amiconnHow do you access the Ondio via usb when there is a rockbox ajbrec.ajz on the card?
10:58:08[IDC]DragonUSB mode on/off, internal/external card
10:58:41[IDC]Dragonthe Archos firmware goes into USB mode before loading that
10:58:48[IDC]Dragonlike the JB
10:59:11amiconnAh ok
10:59:58[IDC]Dragonbtw, it's USB-powered
11:00
11:00:46amiconnNice! So it doesn't drain the batteries in usb mode. Does it run without batteries inserted on usb?
11:00:59[IDC]Dragonyes
11:01:18[IDC]Dragonvery useful for my tests with the bare PCB
11:02:14 Quit Spadulous ()
11:03:10[IDC]Dragonjust found: the tuner power seems to be switched
11:03:15 Quit Ka (Nick collision from services.)
11:04:02 Join R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@171-248-30-217.kgts.ru)
11:04:11amiconn[IDC]Dragon: I just had a look at two toslink<->electrical converter kits available from ELV - these use TTL level for chinch???
11:04:48amiconnhttp://www.elv-downloads.de/service/manuals/14442_Lichtleiter_Technik/TTL_KM.pdf
11:05:10 Join Ka_ [0] (~tkirk@pcp261180pcs.howard01.md.comcast.net)
11:18:23[IDC]Dragonlooks hairy: the balance it right at the switching threshold?
11:18:32[IDC]Dragons/the/they
11:19:48amiconnIt looks like that, yes
11:23:58[IDC]Dragonhow about retrofitting your CD player with a cinch jack?
11:24:23 Quit R3nTiL ()
11:24:59amiconnIt's actually my DVD player, an old Thomson one. It doesn't even play CD-Rs, not to mention mp3
11:26:38[IDC]DragonI once upgraded a jack to my CD player
11:26:53[IDC]Dragonwhich had no digital out
11:27:21amiconnAnother matter: I just finished my next recording test round (analog). I left out m/s stereo encoding - and I didn't get frame sync errors!
11:27:45amiconnWhere did you get the spdif signal from?
11:28:14*amiconn looks up something
11:29:13[IDC]DragonI chased for it with a scope, found it on one of the big chips
11:30:14amiconnThat means that you'll have to know how spdif has to look like. I don't
11:30:34amiconnI doubt that this is possible with my CD player either. It's a rather old one
11:30:44[IDC]DragonI found the 44.1 kHz somewhere
11:30:55[IDC]Dragonthen I was able to use that as a trigger
11:31:21[IDC]Dragonthen I went for the other pins to find a signal which is in sync to that
11:33:57amiconnJust found that my CD writer (in the amiga) does have spdif out. Now I only have to find a connector...
11:44:24amiconnI was wrong :( No spdif there
12:00
12:02:09 Quit [IDC]Dragon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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12:46:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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13:02:53 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD9E344BC.dip.t-dialin.net)
13:04:03[IDC]Dragongot disconnected without noticing
13:04:50[IDC]DragonI just updated the Ondio page a bit again
13:06:13amiconnFound that (the bridge clock enable) and fixed the chip table a bit :)
13:06:45amiconn(The table cell separator wasn't noticed by twiki for some reason)
13:07:30[IDC]DragonI thought I fixed that, hmm
13:15:26amiconn[IDC]Dragon: (1) You wanted to guess how I found the mmc driver parts (2) You wanted to tell me about the logic levels
13:16:51[IDC]Dragon(1) by the serial port addresses
13:17:06[IDC]Dragon(2) which levels?
13:18:10amiconn(1) Yes, although it is even a bit easier. Sh2d puts the register name as a comment behind know addresses, so you only have to search for TDR1/ RDR1
13:18:59amiconn(2) [10:57:49] <[IDC]Dragon> checked the AND levels in all 4 cases:
13:19:11amiconn[10:58:12] <[IDC]Dragon> USB mode on/off, internal/external card
13:22:12[IDC]DragonI'll add a table
13:22:41[IDC]Dragon(later)
13:24:01[IDC]Dragonwhen I enabled sync mode, I got a constant frequency at the clock line
13:24:25[IDC]Dragoninstead of bursts of 8 clocks per byte
13:24:46[IDC]DragonI didn't transmit bytes, so it should stay idle (high)
13:25:14[IDC]Dragonprobably this is another mode.
13:26:41[IDC]Dragonlunch time
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13:50:14amiconn[IDC]Dragon: You shouldn't get continuous clock in sync mode as per sh datasheet
13:50:14amiconnPerhaps your serial init is incomplete
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14:20:32 Quit methangas (" Like VS.net's GUI? Then try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-")
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14:46:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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15:25:31 Join R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@127-250-30-217.kgts.ru)
15:27:26 Join Zagor [0] (~bjst@h254n2fls31o265.telia.com)
15:28:09amiconnhi Zagor
15:28:15Zagorhi
15:28:53amiconnI hacked together a test plugin for the file system, using pseudo-random data
15:29:13amiconnI wonder why the rockbox prng is limited to 31 bit (done by you)?
15:30:44Zagorbecause posix rand() is like that
15:31:30Zagori have a vague recollection that we got into trouble with 32-bit for some reason. can't remember exactly though.
15:31:36amiconnah ok. Unfortunately this limits me to only use 3 bytes
15:33:57Zagori can't come up with a reason right now why we shouldn't use unsigned 32-bit...
15:34:34 Quit R3nTiL ()
15:36:25amiconnAh sh**! The rockbox rng is much too slow on the target to be useful. It worked perfectly in the sim...
15:37:54amiconnAlthough that does much more resemble the way the mpeg thread does save data. Save the buffer, pause a while, save the buffer...
15:39:12Zagori think we may be able to solve the button issue by simply using symbolic defines instead of button codes. i'm going through the code now and it looks promising
15:40:23Zagorthe pitch screen has to go though, but that has been the plan for a long time
15:40:40 Join elinenbe_ [0] (trilluser@207-237-224-49.c3-0.nyr-ubr1.nyr.ny.cable.rcn.com)
15:41:40amiconnWhat do you mean with symbolic defines? Having events like CALL_MENU etc. instead of raw button codes? What about the plugins?
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15:42:40Zagoryes, something like that. plugins solve it themselves, possibly the same way
15:44:08amiconnImho it would be nice to have raw button events as well as pre-processed ones. The caller may then decide which ones to use
15:44:30amiconnOf course the raw button codes have to be unique
15:46:48Zagoryes the events are the same, we just change the switch cases to use symblic defines such as TREE_NEXT instead of BUTTON_DOWN
15:47:39Zagorwe've done it half-way in tree.c but I think/hope we can do it pretty much all over
15:49:27amiconnThis still doesn't solve the case when BUTTON_ON == BUTTON_OFF. This case must not happen. If we deal with a device with less buttons, and want to generate different events from the same button e.g. depending on whether it is pressed short or long, we need some preprocessing in the button driver
15:50:07Zagoryeah I know. i'm doing some tests to see how many such cases we'll run into
15:50:23Zagorwe already have that processing: BUTTON_REPEAT
15:51:24amiconnThere are a number of them (temporarily disabled by Jörg). I tried enabling the plugin compilation (was a fix in the plugin lib makefile) and found that almost every plugin runs into this clash too.
15:52:03amiconnThe most ugly I found (before giving up for now) was chip8.c
15:52:04Zagoryes but we cannot define conflicting raw events. two BUTTON_xxx codes must never have the same values.
15:52:16amiconnYes, exactly
15:53:00amiconnBut we still need the alternative functions of these buttons...
15:57:02amiconnBtw, I had a quick look at an iriver ihp-120 yesterday at the local electronics store. I can't say that I like it, apart from it being rather expensive
15:58:00Zagori'm not a big fan of the navigation "knob", but apart from that i think it's pretty ok
15:58:13Zagorthe remote control screen is very nice
15:59:21ashridahthe nav joystick thing doesn't bother me that much, although i spend far more time using the remote, since the main unit is generally in my pocket, with the remote clipped to my collar.
16:00
16:00:03ashridahthe 3xx series uses a keypad tho if the nav stick bothers you. pity that's more expensive still :)
16:00:06Zagorow, that reminds me. i need to consider the ihp remote buttons too...
16:00:28ashridahZagor: you can buy spare remotes, so strip it and start measuring signals? :)
16:00:36amiconn(1) I also dont like that wiggly navigation knob (2) there are several buttons scattered all around the case (3) the chrome is very susceptible to fingerprints (4) no standard 2.5" hdd
16:00:37Zagorashridah: yeah i much prefer that style. not a fan of the color screen though. as you say, it's mostly in the pocket anyway...
16:01:49Zagorunfortunately 2.5" players are pretty much going extinct :(
16:01:54ashridahi've been keeping mine in my pocket for ages, and the knob hasn't given me any trouble.
16:01:58amiconn20 GB isn't much, and they wanted € 389,- for the ihp-120, compared to the € 199,- for the recorder v2 (yes they still sell them)
16:02:31Zagoramiconn: i'm not trying to sell you an ihp :)
16:02:49amiconnOf course not ;)
16:03:29ashridahheh. i was sold on my ihp-140 the moment i found out it supports ogg out of the box
16:03:54Zagorashridah: do you know anywhere I can see detailed photos of the remote? linus has our only unit.
16:04:10ashridahof the internals, or just the outside?
16:04:13Zagoroutside
16:04:21ashridahi'll try and find one
16:06:34ashridahhttp://image.itwarehouse.com.au/images/IRI0058.JPG there's another knob on the bottom, plus a hold switch next to it
16:06:44amiconnashridah: I don't need ogg or wma support at all. Although .mod support could be interesting (afaik this is not found in any modile music player out of the box so far)
16:07:12ashridahamiconn: i'm not trying to sell you on it either
16:07:24ashridahalthough i imagine someone will hack it into the player via rockbox eventually.
16:07:52ashridahZagor: each of the side buttons can be pushed two either side, or in.
16:08:48Zagoris there only one button on the "lower" side?
16:08:53ashridahyeah.
16:08:56Zagorok
16:09:17ashridahthe other spot opposite the nav button is the hold switch which locks only the remote
16:09:23Zagorthe ring outside the play button isn't a button, is it?
16:09:28ashridahnope
16:09:36ashridahthe play button is slightly recessed into the ring
16:09:55ashridahpity i don't have a digital camera, i could photograph the lot for you :/
16:10:13Zagorthis is fine thanks
16:11:07ashridahthe other switch just above the stop button is the 'REC' button, which also lets you skip directories, or switch through the equaliser presets.
16:11:14ashridahif you hold it, it switches to record mode.
16:11:23ashridahif you hold the play button, it switches to the FM radio0
16:11:29ashridahholding stop switches it off
16:12:44Zagorrec skips directories? what then does nav do?
16:13:09ashridahlets you skip files, or if you hold it, fast forwards/rewinds
16:13:39Zagorok so what does "skip directory" mean? goes to next record in a playlist?
16:13:40ashridahif you press nav in, it goes to the file menu (VERY compressed on the three lines you get :), and if you hold it in, goes to the utility menus
16:13:53ashridahZagor: no, goes to the next directory containing files on the disk
16:14:02Zagordo you know the actual resolution of the remote screen?
16:14:59ashridahhmm. not sure exactly. it holds about 4 lines of text, i'm not sure if the lines are the same width as the main unit, however
16:16:03ashridahi'd say it's got the same pixel size as the main unit, however
16:16:18ashridahthe picture doesn't look any more grainy
16:17:05ashridahif you search the forums on www.iriver.com/community/ you'll find utilities that let you hack modified images into the firmware
16:17:28ashridahthey probably mention the dimensions of the images for the boot logo, which is probably the maximum for the display and remote
16:17:51ashridahhmm. btw, it's not skipping directories, my bad. it's skipping '10 files' in the playlist.
16:18:06ashridahjust looked like directories because that often crosses a directory's boundary
16:18:27Zagorok
16:19:56ashridahall told you have 11 buttons on the remote, each having a different action for long and short hold, plus context dependent action
16:21:53Zagoryeah
16:24:30Zagorhow is the bottom knob marked?
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16:25:51Zagoris that vol +/-?
16:26:43ashridahVOL -/+, A-B/Mode (if you just press it you can set a section to be repeated within a file, if you hold it, you set the type of file repeating (file, directory, playonce, 'shuffle')
16:27:18ashridahhttp://www.beermex.com/%40spc/iriver/ihpbmp/ihplogo.zip is an iriver firmware graphics mod app. it should mention the dimensions of the boot logos in the docs
16:27:36Zagorok thanks
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16:28:19ashridahi don't actually recommend using it, but it may help weed out the graphics inside the firmware, to remove dead weight from dissassembly.
16:28:55Zagorunfortunately it changes a bunch of graphics, but none of which cover the entire screen :(
16:29:10Zagorthe boot logo is 104x88 for example
16:29:17ashridahhm. would have assumes the boot logos covered the viewable width
16:29:28Zagoryeah me too
16:29:43ashridahbum.
16:30:43Zagorhmm, i find no use for the record button :)
16:30:56Zagor(in current rockbox layout, that is)
16:31:47ashridahi'm sure you'll come up with something
16:32:11Zagormaybe a quickscreen
16:32:14*Zagor hides
16:32:31amiconnZagor: There we go...
16:36:57ashridahwell, i've got to get up at 8am, and it's already past midnight, so i'm hitting the sack
16:37:13 Quit ashridah ("sleep")
16:45:29ZagorLinusN: please scan the cover of the ihp and the remote too. most photos on the net are too small or blurry.
16:46:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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17:09:25amiconnZagor: I just started my fs stress test plugin (after improving it a bit) for testing an almost 2 GB file. This will run for about 8 hrs, though
17:09:59amiconnChances are that out file system does not cause the recording errors, since my first test run (160 MB) did not yield any error
17:13:54amiconnI tried to mimic the file api usage of the recording code as close as possible, i.e. saving the buffer in 2 pieces (split point is pseudo-random) with fsync() after each part, and performing ata_sleep() afterwards
17:15:51amiconnIf you want to see what I have -> amiconn.dyndns.org/test_fs.c">http://amiconn.dyndns.org/test_fs.c
17:16:10amiconnAdditionally his needs adding fsync to the plugin api
17:34:49Zagorgood test. it will be interesting to see the result
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18:15:21bagawkhttp://gaming.engadget.com/entry/8658980455609655/
18:15:38bagawkkinda neat, but it seems the job could have been done a bit more cleanly
18:15:44bagawk:)
18:17:57Zagorsee mini-itx.com for a truckload of weird pc builds. such as this commodore 1541 creation: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/c1541/
18:25:29bagawki wish i kept my NES when it died, for a mod like that :(
18:30:29bagawkhttp://www.mini-itx.com/projects/mac-itx/
18:30:36bagawknow that is VERY neat
18:30:45bagawki could get a old mac se very cheap :)
18:46:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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19:17:12Zagorcan the ondio have a remote control?
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19:19:21Zagoranyone with a player who can test some new button code?
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19:22:56bagawk_ohh pfavr was here
19:23:01bagawk_i was wanteing to talk to him :(
19:23:10bagawk_time to go
19:23:11bagawk_bye
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19:54:02amiconnZagor: (1) No remote for the Ondio afaik. (2) In case noone else can test on a player, I can do it in a few days :)
20:00
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20:23:06Zagorhere is my idea about button assignments for the various units: http://bjorn.haxx.se/rb-buttons.txt
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20:27:47amiconnZagor: Isn't volume on the player menu+left/right?
20:28:07Zagoryes, it's a typo.
20:28:24Zagorfixed
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20:29:17amiconnLooks reasonable, although a few questions arise:
20:30:31amiconn(1) What about the quick screens and f2/f3 on the recorder? (2) What about the pitch adjustment? You said the pitch screen has to go, where do you intend to put this functionality?
20:31:32amiconn(3) Recording screen for units that are capable of recording? (4) Plugins?
20:32:14amiconn(5) fm radio for the recorder fm and the ondio fm?
20:32:21Zagor1) quickscreens are by definition recorder-only, since they depend heavily on the f-keys that no other models have
20:32:31Zagor2) pitch goes into a menu entry
20:32:57Zagor3) recording is a menu entry, as today. i haven't looked at the actual screen buttons yet
20:33:39Zagor4) plugins need to handle this themselves. there is no way rockbox can dictate which buttons all plugins should use for whatever the plugins do
20:33:40amiconn(6) Context sensitive menus?
20:34:20Zagor5) fm radio is a menu entry today - not a button issue. same with 6)
20:35:10amiconn(recording, fm radio) I don't talk about calling these functions, this is of course done via the menu. I'm asking for the button handling in these screens
20:36:11amiconnIf you say F buttons functionality is by def recorder only, you rule out context menus for all other units, unless we come up with some clever key combos
20:36:36Zagori don't have an fm unit so I haven't used them. wps and browser are the only two really generic items (except menus, but they are easy) that I would really want to handle in a somewhat generic way. special features for various models may still need model-specific code
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20:37:43ZagorF buttons are not equivalent to context-sensitive menus. but quickscreens in their current incarnation depend on f-buttons. no other model have any logical button to assign them to
20:39:02amiconnI'm asking for this because imho recording and fm are not that special. Recording capability: recorder v1/v2/fm, ondio, iriver. FM radio: recorder fm, ondio fm, iriver
20:39:52Zagorthe feature as such is not special, but the button assignments may be difficult to make both generic and intuitive
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20:40:47Zagorif we can make this generic for wps and browser, we've come a long way. i have no intention on coming up with an ultimate solution for all features.
20:41:22Zagors/intention/illusion/
20:41:57amiconnYou did this (in an imho good way) for browser and wps. It should be possible for recording and fm too. I think that should be the logical next step when wps and browser are done
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20:42:19Zagoragreed
20:42:25amiconnFinal addition: What about the archos remote?
20:43:04Zagorit's a carbon-copy of the player keypad (plus volume), so I didn't add it separately
20:43:41amiconnOk.
20:44:34amiconnWe still have to define which keys are locked when keylock is on
20:44:55Zagoryeah, i don't have a solution for that yet
20:45:03amiconnI guess we don't want to lock the remote keys ;)
20:45:24Zagorsomeone will likely request it...
20:45:47amiconnIirc the current code does not do that, so...
20:46:22Zagoryeah, i'm just joking
20:46:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:48:42amiconnAnother addition: Currently, ON is not only shift in the browser, used alone it switches to the wps if the music is playing, but only in the root browser
20:48:55Zagoryeah, i spotted that omission too
20:49:23Zagorit works in the code :)
20:49:56Zagori plan to remove mute
20:50:20Zagorand move id3-browser to the menu
20:50:27amiconnThat may cause a flood of complaints on the ml ;)
20:50:42Zagorseriously? who uses mute instead of pause?
20:51:00amiconnDunno, really. I don't
20:53:08amiconnAs we move more and more items to the menu, we really need context sensitivity. The menu as it is now is rather large and thus not very intuitive.
20:53:21Zagori agree
20:54:50amiconnDo you know how far c0utta got with that? Btw, I haven't seen him around for quite some time
20:55:38ZagorI don't know. Linus talked with him more than I did so I think he knows a little more about his code.
21:00
21:06:17amiconnZagor: Another omission: recorder: (wps) rew = left+repeat, ffwd = right+repeat; the equivalents for the other models
21:08:00Zagoryup
21:08:06Zagoralso fixed in the code
21:09:21amiconnYour list brought into a table would make a nice reference for a wiki page.
21:09:37Zagorgood point. i'll add it
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21:29:17 Join HenrikB [0] (~HenrikB@as4-2-2.sjom.b.bonet.se)
21:30:31HenrikBJust a quick comment on id3-browse
21:32:02HenrikBIf on+play is extended to the wps it can be removed from the menu when we add Jeremy Zoss's id3 browse/edit patch
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21:32:22Zagoron+play extended how?
21:32:50 Part amiconn_
21:34:05pikeu seen the recent development of the other "alternative fw" for iriver ?
21:34:14HenrikBSo it is available from wps, and made sensitive on from where it is called from.
21:34:16Zagoror do you simply mean context-sensitive menu?
21:34:20Zagorok
21:34:24HenrikBYes
21:35:07Zagorpike: yes. but i decided to ignore him several days ago.
21:35:37pikewhy didnt I think of that ;) well, seems like they'll be quiet from now on.
21:36:03Zagoronly time will tell...
21:39:15Zagorit's a bit annoying that the iriver remote has different buttons than the head unit. makes making a consistent ui non-trivial.
21:40:05Zagorfor example, which button should enter the menu? the main unit has no menu button, so i've chosen the "record" button for now. but the remote *has* a "menu" button, *and* a "record"...
21:40:48Zagormanufacturers should stop marking the buttons. they make my life more difficult ;)
21:41:00Zagorhttp://rockbox.haxx.se/twiki/bin/view/Main/ButtonAssignments
21:41:02pikeyeah, I actually think the remote is smarter mapped than the main unit sometimes
21:41:18amiconnsuggestion: (main record) == (remote menu), (main record+repeat) == (remote record)
21:41:57Zagoramiconn: not a bad idea. although the remote currently has more buttons than we have features ;)
21:42:20Zagor(not really, just more buttons than any of our other devices)
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21:43:29tboyhi
21:43:33Zagorhi
21:45:17HenrikBI have both context sensitive menues and Jeremy's id3 plugin in my own builds
21:45:25HenrikBbut since adding context sensitive menues will move a few entries from the main menu
21:45:38HenrikBto the on+play menu it probably should wait until after 2.3
21:46:07Zagormaybe all context sensitive menus should have a last entry "full menu"
21:47:52tboyis there any info on rombox for the fm
21:48:25tboyis it possible for me to flash it on mine
21:48:47tboyor isn't there enough space
21:49:42HenrikBZagor, Good idea
21:49:58Zagortboy: fm is unfortunately too big for rombox
21:50:02amiconntboy: If you can't compile yourself, the only option is to flash-change your fm into a v2. There isn't enough space with the archos fm firmware as first image. Beware that full flashing is a certain risk, and you won't have the radio available if out f1-boot
21:50:21tboywell I can compile myself
21:50:24amiconns/if out/if you/
21:51:18amiconntboy: Then you can try the other 2 options as described on the RomBox wiki page, http://rockbox.haxx.se/twiki/bin/view/Main/RomBox
21:51:53HenrikBReal life calls, time to leave, Bye
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21:52:16tboyok
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21:52:26tboyi'll look into that
21:52:28tboythanx
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21:59:11 Join dim [0] (~dim@voltaire-1-81-57-79-133.fbx.proxad.net)
21:59:14dimhi guys
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21:59:37dimcould I add a bootable system on an archos ?
22:00
22:00:11dimmy idea would to make archos a globe trotter tool as in : http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/globetrotter
22:00:40dimso the archos would be able to handle a kind of grub or lilo, and choose a system on boot...
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22:01:13Zagordim: yes, the archos is just like any other usb disk
22:01:42dimbut installing eg. a knoppix on it wouldn't hurt the system ? rockbox would still be available ?
22:01:57Zagoryes, if you keep the fat32 filesystem
22:03:05dimcould i shrink it and modify the MBR ?
22:03:11Zagoryes
22:03:21dimthat's a good news !
22:03:24dimthanks ;)
22:03:28kaboofahmm
22:03:36kaboofawouldn't you risk burning out the drive?
22:03:45Zagorburning out?
22:03:50kaboofai know some people did that to an ipod, and nearly killed it
22:04:06dimso an « other » entry in lilo or grub would allow me to boot rockbox...
22:04:07Zagordid what?
22:04:15kaboofainstalled unix on an ipod
22:04:29kaboofaeh, whatever, hard drives are cheap
22:04:29Zagordim: well rockbox boots from flash and doesn't care about the boot sector (other than for the partition table)
22:04:33kaboofaback to idle.
22:04:47Zagorkaboofa: :)
22:05:33kaboofareal men don't backup, they just put their hard drive on ftp and let the world mirror it
22:05:55dim;)
22:05:58dim−− linus ;)
22:06:05Zagori like the backup-over-gmail system
22:06:21kaboofaheh
22:06:25dimgmail only offers 1Go... quite no value
22:06:35kaboofaesp. if you have a few TB of crap
22:06:58dimfor half an euro you have a 4.7Go DVD you can now burn in 5 mins (16x writer)
22:07:15kaboofaheh
22:07:22kaboofamy new dvd burner is coming in soon
22:07:58kaboofaso i can 'backup' my 'movies that i didn't rent from a video store'
22:08:11dimon the archos as a bootable usb device, i'll try and let you informed
22:08:18kaboofaroger that.
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22:27:05SmoothOperatorhey guys
22:27:09 Quit methangas (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- irc client ownage!")
22:27:46Zagorhi
22:27:47SmoothOperatorHas anyone here used or held an ipod?
22:27:57SmoothOperatorhello Bjorn
22:28:57Zagori havent
22:29:24SmoothOperatorim just burning with desire to get one, but i don't want to make a horrific mistake
22:30:06Zagorwell i hope you don't like gapless playback :)
22:30:44SmoothOperatori don't mind if there are gaps or not. I know Rockbox sometimes does gapless playback
22:32:54Zagorwell it may not be the best player in all categories, but i can't say you're likely to make a "horrific" mistake.
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22:33:27amiconnevening Jörg
22:33:58SmoothOperatorstill like my Archos though
22:34:12SmoothOperatori just wish it wasn't a breeze block compared to other MP3 devices
22:35:06[IDC]Dragonhi again, just a quick visit
22:35:17SmoothOperatorhey [IDC]Dragon
22:35:49amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Got my remark concerning sync mode this afternoon?
22:36:08[IDC]Dragonyes, in the log
22:36:27[IDC]Dragonthere must be some different setup possible
22:37:00amiconnarchos uses default sync mode setup as described in the sh datasheet
22:37:03[IDC]Dragonwhen measuring the alive PCB, i get intermittant pulses with Archos f/w
22:37:37[IDC]Dragonthe USB bridge puts out a constant clock
22:37:52[IDC]Dragonbut uses MMC mode, most likely
22:38:00amiconnyes
22:38:50[IDC]Dragonthe MMC card I have hear appears broken, I'll try another one tomorrow
22:39:06[IDC]Dragoncan't use it to store something
22:39:17 Quit elinenbe (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:39:33amiconnYour level measurement marked 1 (?) may be in fact correct, mmc mode does not use /cs
22:39:48[IDC]DragonI made one more fix for the USB mode, but still no go
22:40:11[IDC]Dragondiscovered the card detect output to the bridge today
22:40:29[IDC]Dragonnow I use it, but no improvement yet
22:41:35amiconnI hand-sniped a Studio 10 on eBay this evening :)
22:41:53[IDC]DragonPA12 is no chip select, it's a clock gate
22:41:59[IDC]Dragoncongrats!
22:42:07[IDC]Dragonhow much this time?
22:43:37 Part dim ("Trying to get a real life")
22:43:43amiconn€ 95,36 including shipment
22:43:50SmoothOperatorcheers Bjorn
22:44:04[IDC]DragonI don't find these very cheap
22:44:37amiconnI saw Studios go for > 150,- €, Recorders often > 200,- €
22:44:46[IDC]Dragonphew
22:45:10[IDC]DragonArchos should start making them again
22:46:15[IDC]Dragoncan I replace a twiki attachment?
22:46:44Zagori think so
22:47:01[IDC]Dragonis it versioned? (hope not)
22:47:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:47:12Zagoryes, click attach and then 'action' for the attachment
22:47:37Zagorthey are versioned, but we have lots of disk space so don't worry
22:47:38SmoothOperatori cannot believe the ondio lacks a backlight, yet on the Archos website it is pictured showing a blue backlight
22:47:53[IDC]Dragonis it?
22:48:12[IDC]Dragonmine definitely has none
22:48:16amiconn[IDC]Dragon: Btw, The next three jukebox auctions did end as follows: a Studio20 for € 131,-, a 6000 for 78,77 and another 6000 for 101,10
22:48:36[IDC]DragonI'm not interested
22:51:09[IDC]DragonSmoothOperator: interesting that you saw one with a backlight
22:51:38[IDC]Dragonmine has an empte footprint, and a port line going there
22:51:49[IDC]Dragons/empte/empty
22:52:17[IDC]Dragonaround it is space for large SMT components
22:52:28[IDC]Dragonlike inductors would be
22:52:55amiconn[IDC]Dragon: If PA12 is a clock gate, I wonder why you measured the clock on both the internal and external flash all the time
22:52:56[IDC]Dragon(below the CPU, see twiki page)
22:53:25[IDC]DragonI wonder if this could be an inverter for EL backlight
22:54:08SmoothOperatorit was on the Archos website
22:54:13SmoothOperatori think its just a touched up image
22:55:35[IDC]Dragonamiconn: I will check this again when I have a working MMC
22:56:34[IDC]Dragonit's indeed strange to AND SCL1 with PA12
22:56:48[IDC]Dragonbecause SCL1 is under CPU control
22:57:39[IDC]Dragonbut wait, SCL is used twice, perhaps we have to block one
22:57:46[IDC]Dragonanyway, later
22:57:48[IDC]Dragoncu
22:57:52 Quit [IDC]Dragon ()
23:00
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23:22:02tboywould it be possible that you guys could get the ondio
23:22:15tboyto read/use SD memory cards
23:22:31Zagoraren't those even different form factors?
23:22:36tboydon't these use the same slots as mms
23:22:51tboywell I have one digital camera here at home that supports both
23:22:56Zagorok
23:22:57tboyand it has only one slot
23:23:10tboyso I guess they must be pretty much the same
23:23:21tboyregarding form and connector
23:24:34Zagori haven't studied any of those standards so I can't say if it's theoretically possible or not
23:24:46tboyok
23:24:55Zagor[idc]dragon probably knows, since he has looked into the ondio
23:25:00tboydo you have one?
23:25:07tboyjust curious
23:25:12amiconntboy: The form factor of sd and mmc are _almost_ the same, and controlling them in the simple mode (spi mode) is identical, but sd cards are thicker (2.1 mm) than mmc cards (1.4 mm), so they don't fit in an mmc only reader
23:25:31tboyok
23:25:50tboydoes it not have a backlight
23:25:57tboyI just read the archos site
23:26:11amiconnMy ondio didn't arrive yet :(
23:26:26tboyand they don't state that it is backlit but the picture looks like they are
23:26:40tboyin a blue kinda color
23:26:46tboylike you guys were talking about
23:27:11tboydoes anyone know if the have a backlight?
23:27:15Zagorthe sp photo is blue but the fm photo is green. suspicious.
23:27:36tboyyea your right
23:28:47tboywell we will find out eventually
23:28:56tboyeventually is the magical word :D
23:30:05Zagorhaha, they have colin mcrae rally for the gmini. :-)
23:30:41tboyreally, which one?
23:30:57Zagorthe 400
23:31:38Zagorthey are really cranking out new models. there's a gmini xs200 coming too now.
23:32:22tboywhats that
23:32:36tboywhat's the difference
23:33:01Zagorhttp://www.allnet-italia.it/archimag/gminix200.php
23:33:03tboylooks kinda cool
23:33:21tboyI once saw a avos 5xx
23:33:53midkavos 5xx?
23:34:01SmoothOperatorwhy has archos decided to remove the spdif from its new units?
23:34:27tboyI'm trying to find the page
23:34:42midki see.
23:34:48tboyyea its that archos av recorder
23:35:33 Quit midk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:36:10SmoothOperatorArchos decided to sell the plugins for the old gmini for free
23:36:29Zagorgood move
23:36:44SmoothOperatori think they tried the "razor blade" tactic but failed
23:37:00 Join midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
23:37:15SmoothOperatorsell the gminis cheap to make money selling the expensive plugins
23:38:25tboyit's what they are doing with printers and ink-cartridges
23:38:49SmoothOperatorand what Gillette does with its razors and blades
23:38:53tboyyep
23:38:59SmoothOperatorits called "razorblade marketing"
23:39:04tboyoh ok
23:39:31SmoothOperatorbecause Gillette started it off
23:39:31Zagori'm beginning to think xclef and iriver cooperated creating their players. just look at the xclef remote: http://www.austinv.com/reviews/XClef_HD800/pics/450/r_lcd_main.jpg
23:40:09midkZagor, a bit odd, but apart from the lcd it looks pretty different, wouldn't you say?
23:40:41Zagorthe buttons are very alike and even positioned the same
23:41:04pikeI'd bet it's the same lcd inside
23:45:48 Quit midk (Remote closed the connection)
23:46:27tboywell g'night
23:47:37 Part tboy
23:52:09 Quit SmoothOperator ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:54:15Zagoraha, gmini400 uses the Mophun "phone games" platform
23:54:43 Join midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
23:57:58Zagorhttp://www.mophun.com/developer/main_phones.php?phone_id=21

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