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#rockbox log for 2004-10-22

00:00:17amiconnZagor: Speaking about internal & external support - this was already discussed some days ago. However, I still wonder how to do it. I agree with Linus that it has to be done in the file system layer.
00:00:45amiconnHowever, this requires an additional parameter to most functions in the lower layers (fat driver and ata_mmc)
00:01:08amiconnI wonder how to hide this for builds without multi-volume support...
00:01:24Zagoryes, it will be a big change
00:01:39 Join Lurkski [0] (~Miranda@24.30.163.142)
00:01:49amiconnZagor: #ifdef each and every function?
00:02:06Zagordoesn't sound very nice :)
00:02:38Zagori don't know, I need to think about it some more. do you have a suggestion?
00:02:58amiconnOtherwise many functions will have a dummy parameter for single-volume builds...
00:03:36 Quit Sebulba02 ("Bite me.")
00:03:36amiconn...I have no idea yet how to solve this.
00:03:40Zagoryes, but dual-defining entire interfaces is not very elegant either
00:03:46amiconnyup
00:05:02iRiverManHas anyone seen the Gmini XS500?
00:05:20Zagorthere's a 500 too?
00:05:46iRiverManits just a player, not a recorder
00:05:54Zagordo you mean the xs200?
00:06:00iRiverMansorry XS200
00:06:02iRiverManyea
00:06:07iRiverManits just a player not a recorder
00:06:17Zagoryes. but very nice size.
00:06:47 Join webguest94 [0] (~c7e73280@labb.contactor.se)
00:06:50iRiverMani don't like the look of it
00:06:53iRiverManiriver looks nicer
00:06:58amiconnZagor: An additional function to pre-select the volume/device is not an option either, because this would make accesses non-atomic
00:06:59iRiverManand that green backlight looks horrid
00:08:12Zagoryeah, it may be ugly but it's hard to argue about the size. 120g! that's almost as light as my mobile phone.
00:08:19Zagoramiconn: yes
00:09:29amiconnThe Ondio is about the weight of my mobile phone (60 g). That Gmini is still twice the weight...
00:10:11Zagorof course, but it's got 20x the capacity
00:11:48amiconnAgreed.
00:12:47iRiverManthe iriver is light
00:16:05amiconnBagder: r u there?
00:17:19iRiverManhey
00:22:50 Quit ScrpWork ("Scorpius MultiServer Script v0.1 for mIRC 6")
00:28:07webguest94hi all
00:28:27webguest94is triggered recording "almost ready" yet?
00:29:50Zagorisn't it always? ;)
00:31:11webguest94:)
00:31:36webguest94It seems very useful, and I'm wondering what it lacks to be included.
00:31:54Zagori'm not sure, i haven't looked at it lately
00:33:42webguest94I have another question: when recording at low qual and bitrates, is it doable to have the audio I hear be actual recorded quality?
00:34:12webguest94Or is that impossible?
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00:34:59Zagorit's not possible on the archos, i'm afraid
00:35:12webguest94I've been recording NPR news radio shows in mono 16khz.
00:35:53 Join edx [0] (edx@p54879355.dip.t-dialin.net)
00:37:51webguest94I guess the hardware can't encode one chan and decode the other, or interleave?
00:38:02Zagorno, only one thing at a time
00:38:31webguest94Oh well, I guess hardly anyone would do that (except me) anyway :)
00:39:38webguest94How about doinq tone control type stuff on encode? (speech uses mostly mid freqs)
00:40:48miner49erthat gray_drawGrayMap function is brilliant! Just what I was looking for. thanks again!
00:40:57Zagorsorry, no. there are very few paramters to adjust for recording
00:41:11Zagorminer49er: can I ask what you're working on?
00:41:53miner49erwell, i'm sure you guys wiould be able to knock up a pure assembly version very quickly but I'm trying to do a simple plasma effect.
00:42:08miner49er...and it's taking ages! lol :-)
00:42:34Zagor:)
00:43:18miner49erreally annoying my girlfriend too!
00:45:18iRiverManpleased i found my Y-cable
00:45:41amiconnBah, the last plugins in the list are the hardest!
00:49:08 Join AC [0] (~5078751e@labb.contactor.se)
00:49:35AChelo
00:49:48iRiverManhi AC
00:50:12 Join Sebulba02 [0] (~Sebulba02@Darth-Sebulba04.active.supporter.pdpc)
00:51:40Zagori'm off to bed. see you later.
00:51:43 Quit Zagor ("Client exiting")
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01:00
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02:34:53Bluechipevenin
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02:56:41-->"a" received from Hysteria- (drones@bb220-255-72-218.singnet.com.sg)
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09:00
09:00:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:02:37 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
09:04:36 Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
09:11:01 Join kurzhaarrocker [0] (~knoppix@p50876655.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
09:11:04 Join Bagder_ [0] (~daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se)
09:19:56kurzhaarrocker<webguest94> is triggered recording "almost ready" yet?
09:19:57kurzhaarrocker<Zagor> isn't it always? ;)
09:19:57kurzhaarrockergrrrr
09:21:13 Join bizaff [0] (~chatzilla@64.21.244.215)
09:21:17Zagorseriously, what is the status of that? I don't know.
09:21:35 Join einhirn [0] (Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de)
09:21:42Zagorare you just waiting for someone to commit it?
09:22:18kurzhaarrockerI'd like to have it code polieced first. But I consider it as commitalbe.
09:22:33Zagorok
09:23:24kurzhaarrockerI used the triggered recording since january - but of course since the last update of the patch I haven't done much excessive testing yet.
09:25:14Bagder_"Media Transfer Protocol" oh gee
09:26:08Zagorhaha
09:26:10kurzhaarrockerIs that the name for transactions with your id3-db?
09:26:32Bagder_"Microsoft has developed the Media Transfer Protocol (MTP) to manage content on any portable device with storage. It is based upon an existing protocol, Picture Transfer Protocol (PTP), and can be implemented to be fully compatible with that protocol."
09:27:06kurzhaarrockerProbably full or drms.
09:27:18Bagder_yes, and made for non usb-storage usb
09:27:30Bagder_the spec is available as... a windows exe
09:27:37kurzhaarrockerlol
09:27:39Zagori'll reject it
09:27:45Bagder_yes
09:28:02kurzhaarrockerDo you want me to formulate a feature request so that you can reject it officially?
09:28:10Bagder_"The primary purpose of MTP is to facilitate communication between devices that connect to a computer or other host, exchange data, and then disconnect for standalone use."
09:28:19Bagder_kurzhaarrocker: there is one already
09:28:25Bagder_that's how I noticed
09:28:28kurzhaarrockerok :)
09:30:11 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se)
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09:32:05[IDC]Dragon'morning folks!
09:32:32CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
09:32:32*kurzhaarrocker waves
09:33:01*[IDC]Dragon gives a high five
09:34:04[IDC]Dragonwhere is dear LinusN these days?
09:34:16kurzhaarrockerBtw: is there alreay code to find frame boundaries in bitswapped mp3 data?
09:34:43Zagor[IDC]Dragon: at home taking care of one of his kids who is sick
09:34:47[IDC]Dragonkurzhaarrocker: yes, in the talk code
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09:34:57[IDC]DragonZagor: oh
09:35:06kurzhaarrockerOh, Linus passed on his sickness. to bad.
09:35:42[IDC]Dragonnow his kids dismantle mp3 players, too? ;-)
09:35:47*[IDC]Dragon ducks
09:35:55Bagderhehe
09:35:59Zagorgiven heavy enough tools, I expect they will :)
09:36:06Bagderthat's a bad illness
10:00
10:02:40[IDC]Dragonspeaking of absent people, is Christie still around?
10:02:57*[IDC]Dragon was thinking about a 2.3 manual
10:03:10Zagorshe hasn't responded my the freeze mail, where I asked if she wanted to update the manual
10:03:40[IDC]Dragon"freeze mail"?
10:04:42Zagor2.3 feature freeze
10:06:16[IDC]Dragonah
10:09:40[IDC]DragonI hope she is well
10:09:52kurzhaarrockerbtw: I recently had an "interesting" battery experience
10:10:29kurzhaarrockerFirst the jukebox stopped playback. Whe I took it out of the pocket I noticed it was hot at one edge.
10:10:46kurzhaarrockerI immediately removed the batteries. One of which was hot.
10:11:29kurzhaarrockerIt became even hotter for the next 20 minutes and the green plastic coating tore due to the heat.
10:11:47kurzhaarrockerFortunately the recorder wasn't damaged.
10:12:06Zagoryikes. spontaneous battery meltdown.
10:12:07kurzhaarrockerI assume that some strange short circuit occurred _inside_ the battery
10:12:52[IDC]Dragonlike the LiIons in Apples' early Powerbooks
10:13:05[IDC]Dragonbursting in flames
10:13:46kurzhaarrockerThis was one of the original green NiMh cells that came with the recorder, no LiIon.
10:14:01kurzhaarrocker(Maybe that prevented flames) :)
10:16:10[IDC]Dragonis the cell dead now?
10:16:36kurzhaarrockerI measured 0.0 Volts and didn't bother to try to recharge it.
10:18:54[IDC]Dragonyes, I woudn't neither
10:19:15[IDC]Dragonbest excuse to get a set of 2300 mAh cells
10:19:59kurzhaarrocker:) Best bang/buck momentarily seem to be the 1800 mAh cells. 4pcs for 8 EUR.
10:20:25Zagoris it bad when a court judge describes you like this: "In fact, however, Merkey is not just prone to exaggeration, he also is and can be deceptive, not only to his adversaries, but also to his own partners, his business associates and to the court. He deliberately describes his own, separate reality."? :-)
10:21:27kurzhaarrockerAre you winning a trial? :)
10:22:09Zagorno, just reading groklaw
10:24:53[IDC]Dragonkurzhaarrocker: at Reichelt, 4*2500 are 10.45, 4*2400 are 9.95
10:25:31[IDC]Dragon1800 are hard to get
10:25:43kurzhaarrockerThanx. Good hint. I might like to order something at Reichelt anyway.
10:26:17kurzhaarrockerSaturn has loads of 1800 mAh
10:35:52 Join amiconn [0] (~jens@pD9E7DDD7.dip.t-dialin.net)
10:36:16kurzhaarrockerHi amiconn. Seems I gave you a hard time with the split editor? :)
10:36:28amiconnhi
10:36:48amiconnYes, although "star" was even harder...
10:39:06kurzhaarrockerDo you experience an audiable gap when looping with the split editor?
10:39:42amiconnThe button were no big problem (leaving out the speed variation).
10:39:59kurzhaarrockeryes, that's what I'd have left out too.
10:42:08kurzhaarrockerI just wondered because of those timing thingies you added
10:45:02amiconnThe timing problem: MMC is slow, and takes several seconds to reload a track. mpeg_ff_rewind() reloads if either the requested range is outside the loaded area (sic) or if it is still busy reloading if a new ff_rewind request is issued.
10:46:02kurzhaarrockerok, thx
10:46:14amiconnThe latter situation arises if you start the split editor shortly after starting the track. Without the added wait, it would reload every time the spliteditor skips back, because reloading takes longer than the loop time.
10:47:00amiconnSo I added the wait check. It will wait 10 seconds at the first loop if a reload is required, to allow the reload to complete
10:47:15amiconnThere are no additional waits for subsequent loops
10:48:21kurzhaarrockerI think the same problem occurres within the "normal" recorder, too.
10:50:32amiconnThere is another problem related to this reload on Ondio. Since the spliteditor does not yield very often, the reload-and-swap is slower than the playback, causing the playback to go silent after ~1 sec without the reload wait
10:51:30kurzhaarrockerhrgh
10:51:53kurzhaarrockerWell the entire plugin needs a rewrite so that it utilizes the mp3 api.
10:52:36amiconnI tried with button_get_w_tmo(HZ/20) instead of button_get(false) / yield(). While this also fixed the swap starving, the osci display became rather imprecise when I did that.
10:55:46kurzhaarrockerLots of gaps I assume?
10:55:54amiconnyup
10:56:26amiconnThe reload check is rather crude: if after 1/20 sec the pointer is still out of range, the code assumes that a reload is in progress. mpeg_status() doesn't tell you...
10:59:28*kurzhaarrocker closes his eyes, puts his fingers into his ears and sings "lalala" loudly so that he needn't hear all the problems he knows to be buried in that lousy looping code.
11:00
11:00:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:09:55[IDC]DragonHi Jens!
11:10:13[IDC]Dragon(just turned my eyes back to this window)
11:19:55amiconnhi
11:20:44amiconnI saw that you implemeted the "voice clip present" caching
11:21:27[IDC]Dragonyes, I found the feature crappy otherwise
11:23:00amiconnThere are only 2 plugins left... but one of them is a very hard one - wormlet
11:23:40kurzhaarrockerlol
11:23:49[IDC]Dragonnobody would mind if we don't have all in the first shot
11:24:48[IDC]DragonI'm not mentioning core features like the keyboard, dumdidum
11:25:18[IDC]DragonI'm an unreliable resource, but can try my best to help
11:25:59kurzhaarrockeramiconn: why not disable all the multi-player crap. Then the reduced amount of buttons shouldn't be problematic.
11:26:18*kurzhaarrocker doubts that anybody anywhen actually tried to play wormlet using a remote
11:26:37*[IDC]Dragon feels guilty because of not being able to work so hard on Odio as amiconn
11:27:11amiconnWormlet needs at least the default event handler stuff. The problem is not the amount of buttons (multiplayer doesn't make sense on Ondio), but that the button handling is scattered all over the code
11:27:12*kurzhaarrocker feels guilty because he still hasn't implemented user assignable key schemes :)
11:31:06[IDC]Dragonamiconn: should I try to start with the keyboard? (probably no real work before sunday)
11:31:41[IDC]Dragonany other Ondio issues left?
11:33:08amiconnThe debug info ("View HW info" and "view IO ports") needs a bit of polishing - taking out the ata stuff
11:33:30[IDC]Dragonnah, peanuts
11:34:40*[IDC]Dragon looks for amiconn's "keyboard specification"
11:35:41amiconnI got another report from an Ondio user (via private eMail). He has original Ondio 128, which is indeed identical to the FMR. Mask 0x0708, i.e. Samsung tuner.
11:36:27[IDC]Dragonworking?
11:37:54[IDC]Dragonso plain "Ondio 128" without SP/FM suffix is like what we call FM, we should clarify that on the build page
11:38:46[IDC]Dragonthe Philips tuner is a lot better in terms of reception
11:39:02amiconnYes it is, and it is working, although he couldn't figure out how to pause/stop. Having that on "Off" *is* a bit unintuitive...
11:39:39amiconnHe already knew rockbox, because he has a V2 as well
11:39:47[IDC]Dragontell me a free button...
11:40:00kurzhaarrockerbelly button
11:40:19[IDC]Dragon:) that's for girls only
11:40:29kurzhaarrocker:)
11:42:47amiconnI wonder if it would be better to put the wps<->browser toggle on "off" and do pause/stop the same way as the archos fw (first press pauses, second stops)
11:45:01[IDC]Dragonfor now, I tried to get away by just reassigning buttons, not changing the states machines (or whatever) of the code
11:45:53[IDC]Dragonthe resulting UI is not good for the Ondio, no doubt about that
11:46:17[IDC]Dragonas it is, the Archos software is more useable
11:47:45amiconnI did not say we have to do this for the upcoming release...
11:49:35[IDC]Dragonphew, OK. ;-)
11:53:15amiconnJust found another report of a "plain" Ondio 128 in the forum...
12:00
12:01:40[IDC]Dragonnote to self: update the flash plugin to accept 1.04 ondios
12:02:07[IDC]Dragonlunch time!
12:30:23Zagorwhy are you so focused on stopping?
12:31:01Zagoradding a state machine makes that part of the ui ondio-specific
12:45:00Zagorotoh I can understand swapping the pause and toggle buttons, since at least I use pause much more than toggle
12:51:39Zagorif would also end up quite well having toggle on off and stop on off+repeat.
12:59:16[IDC]Dragonback again
13:00
13:00:35[IDC]DragonZagor: perhaps
13:00:57***No seen item changed, no save performed.
13:00:58[IDC]Dragon(you're a bit hard to read today, or is it just me?)
13:01:24Zagormaybe i've had too little coffee?
13:01:46[IDC]Dragongo for it, then!
13:01:52Zagor:)
13:05:47Zagoror was it "otoh" (on the other hand) that was confusing?
13:06:12[IDC]Dragonah, that's what it means
13:06:42[IDC]DragonI thought it's perhaps a crippled "although"
13:07:29ZagorI should stop using unnecessary acronyms
13:07:53[IDC]Dragonno, I just have to learn
13:08:12[IDC]Dragonwhat does "sic" mean?
13:10:25Zagorit's latin and means roughly "so it says". you use it to point out that what you wrote was not a mistake, but what you actually meant. often used for example after misspellings in quotes
13:12:06Zagor(it's not an acronym)
13:12:45[IDC]Dragonyea, with your pointers I found it. I had too many years of latin at school to remember...
13:13:05Zagor:)
13:33:48amiconnZagor: Having pause and stop on different buttons would imho be even more confusing than it is now. Also, stop on Off+Repeat is a bit uncomfortable, since holding it too long switches the unit off.
13:37:11Zagorpause and stop is always on different buttons
13:38:38amiconnIt isn't on the Ondio...
13:39:03Zagorit isn't on the archos ondio firmware. but that's not really relevant, is it? we are not making a better archos firmware.
13:40:36amiconnIt isn't in rockbox either. Currently, pause is Off, stop is Off+repeat
13:42:18Zagortrue. but I just said I agree with you that it's a good idea to put pause on the closer MENU button instead, because it's more frequently used
13:43:16Zagorthere is no inherent advantage in grouping separate functions to a single button. it should be decided on the basis of ergonomics and comfort
13:43:17amiconnYou mean, because you use pause more frequently. I almost never use pause...
13:43:37Zagorok. do you browse more than pause?
13:44:12Zagori'm fine with keeping it as is. i'm just not fine with adding ondio-specific state code just to emulate the archos firmware.
13:48:10amiconnThe biggest problem is that there are too few buttons. In the wps, there are 12 functions, but only 6 buttons.
13:48:44amiconnWe have 3 options: (1) Distinguish short/ long press, including Off button
13:48:45Zagorwhich functions are we lacking in the wps currently?
13:48:59amiconnThis is what we do now
13:49:09amiconn(2) Use button combos
13:49:22amiconn(3) Add state code
13:49:37Zagorwe do 1) and 2) today already. i don't like adding a third model.
13:49:52amiconnWe have all functions available in wps, with model (1)
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14:00
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14:10:40amiconn(model 1) However, this requires the long "Off" press. Using combos would be even more unintuitive imho. Adding state code would solve that problem...
14:10:50 Join Lynx_ [0] (lynx@134.95.189.59)
14:11:14ZagorI don't see the problem with the long off press
14:11:29Zagoryou said there are several seconds until it shuts down
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14:13:11[IDC]DragonZagor: in general, we should be able to adjust the UI better to the target. A plain 1:1 mapping gives us something working atm, but no snug fit to whichever model
14:13:48amiconnZagor: Yes there are. It still feels uncomfortable...
14:13:51ZagorI disagree that adding a whole new UI concept is "a snug fit"
14:14:14[IDC]Dragonwith the Iriver, Rockbox as is would be "boring", on such a big screen, or whatever different capabilities
14:14:27Zagor[IDC]Dragon: absolutely
14:14:57Zagorbut we are not targeting the winamp skinning crowd anyway
14:15:04[IDC]Dragonso there is a future challenge to decouple features and UI
14:15:33Zagorthe solution isn't to write all new code for each target
14:15:42amiconnState code is not an all-new concept, even for rockbox.
14:15:53[IDC]Dragonno, and that's not what I meant
14:17:42[IDC]Dragonwe're in danger to go to #ifdef hell, if we fail to seperate the UI
14:17:47Zagoramiconn: should we move stop away from the off button on regular recorders too? the margin is much more narrow there.
14:18:03kurzhaarrockerWhy is "statemachine" such a bad word? What's the problem with state machines?
14:18:33Zagorkurzhaarrocker: nothing, but the rockbox UI does not use that concept. I see no reason to depart from the rockbox ui design concept.
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14:19:51Zagor[IDC]Dragon: "separating the ui" in practice means forking the code for each platform, or making the code huge, abstract and very complex.
14:20:21amiconnZagor: It is not a problem on the recorder, since it is a short press only
14:20:24Zagorthe only thing the iriver has is another screen. it does not require a whole different UI
14:21:11[IDC]DragonI'll remind you when the crowd asks for icons, etc.
14:21:27Zagorwhen did I listen to "the crowd"?
14:21:34[IDC]Dragon;-)
14:21:43Bagderand why would icons separate the UI?
14:21:52Bagderwe can have icons on archos too
14:22:11ZagorI can see the use for larger icons than we have today, and colour. but that's pretty much it.
14:22:15kurzhaarrockerThere already was an impressive proof of concept implementation by someone.
14:22:30*Bagder recalls some nice screenshots
14:22:35[IDC]Dragonunfortunately I've never seen that
14:22:40logan02does anyone here know someone named "yeft"
14:22:48[IDC]DragonURL ?
14:23:01#>>"seen" used by Zagor (~bjst@labb.contactor.se) [snoop prevented]
14:23:12Zagorlogan02: nope
14:25:05*kurzhaarrocker stratches his head
14:25:05kurzhaarrockerWas it dwihno who did that icon gui demo?
14:28:17[IDC]DragonGoogle thinks so, yes
14:28:56 Quit logan02 ("CGI:IRC")
14:29:09*[IDC]Dragon invokes dwhino
14:31:42amiconnZagor: The rockbox ui already uses a bit of state code do distinguish short and long presses - the xxx_PRE stuff
14:32:49amiconns/do/to/
14:32:55Zagorof course, we have lots of state *code*. but we don't have user interface states of the type you propose.
14:33:20Zagorevery switch() is a state machine
14:34:46amiconnThe double-Off powerdown on recorders is an example for ui states, as is the handling of the On button (classic jukeboxes) in the browser. It's function depends on whether music is playing or not.
14:36:11Zagori agree about the poweroff function, but not the on button. all buttons depend on state, always. browser, wps, menu etc.
14:37:01kurzhaarrocker(otherwise even combos had to be considered as states, and let's not talk about the quick screens)
14:40:02Zagoramiconn: how exactly is your proposal? how do I resume again once I pause? is it sort of like a quick-screen with only stop and pause/resume as options?
14:41:21amiconnIf we leave the assignment as-is, the first hit of "Off" could pause, the second could stop. Resume would then have to be done the same way as play from the browser, with Right.
14:41:42amiconnOf course this disallows skip-forward while in pause mode
14:43:13Zagorand the motive is that using off+repeat for stop is uncomfortable?
14:44:52amiconnYes, but that is only one reason. As it is now, you resume with "Off" after pause - highly illogical.
14:45:51Zagorso we trade vol+, vol-, ffwd and rew during pause for a friendlier resume
14:45:52amiconnIt also often happens for me that I only pause when I meant to stop. Then pressing "Off" a little longer first resumes for a fraction of a second, then stops for real
14:46:17amiconnNope, only forward skip would be traded
14:46:23Zagorin that case it's a bug. it should only resume on off+release
14:46:56 Part kurzhaarrocker
14:46:56Zagoronly ffwd? how logical is that?
14:48:04Zagori think the changes are rather extensive just to move stop to another button
14:48:56amiconnErm, because Right == Play on Ondio. I agree that it isn't full logical.
14:48:59 Nick midk_ is now known as midk (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
14:51:59Zagoractually it's not play, that's just how the archos firmware maps it. the button is marked >>
14:53:02amiconnAgreed. So there is no real play button on that mp3 player - strange design eh? ;)
14:53:09Zagor:-)
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14:57:24Bagdermy keyboard's left control-key just broke
14:57:32Bagderterribly annoying
14:58:21Zagori hardly ever use it, i have caps-lock mapped to ctrl instead. very pinky-friendly :)
14:58:54BagderI do control-x s using that in my sleep ;-)
15:00
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15:02:21 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
15:08:07BagderI've noticed that the good open neo guys remove more and more copyright texts
15:10:29Zagormaybe it's time to quote the law to them again
15:11:28Bagderyes, I'll write a mail the next one they take away
15:19:31BagderZagor: time to add ondio to the models on the front web page
15:20:12Zagori planned to do that when we release 2.3
15:20:20Bagderok
15:21:24amiconnBagder: You wrote pong, correct?
15:21:31Bagdercorrect
15:21:45Bagdernot the best piece I ever wrote, but...
15:24:04amiconnYou choice for "down" for one of the players should be changed on the recorders. Right and Left are mechanically mutually-exclusive. While you can force the buttons to make contact at the same time, this is certainly not good for the button lifetime...
15:24:47BagderI know
15:24:59BagderI think it proves no one every played it for real ;-)
15:25:15Bagders/every/ever
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15:51:34amiconnFound that while testing if my Ondio adaptions broke something on the recorder. I also found that pong isn't very playable - the paddles still move too slow, even with the new button driver
15:53:02Zagoreven more proof nobody ever played it :)
15:56:53amiconnyup. I had the same problems with the chip8 emulator - many games either run too fast, or some graphics are missing.
16:00
16:08:28[IDC]Dragonchip8 has a serious button shortage, even on the recorder
16:12:34amiconnYes, that's another problem. Iirc chip8 specifies 16 buttons. Recorder offers 9 of them, Ondio only 5...
16:12:55[IDC]Dragonmany games are not playable because of this
16:13:23Zagor16 buttons! that's a lot.
16:13:44[IDC]Dragonsomebody suggested to have an (optional) map file per game. If the emulator finds such, it uses the mapping within, instead of the default.
16:15:10[IDC]Dragon16 buttons is from the golden age when buttons were a lot cheaper than a CPU. Now it seems to be opposite.
16:16:04amiconnYes, that's surely an option. However, I wonder why some graphics are not displayed...
16:20:07[IDC]Dragonamiconn: I'm testing a crude keyboard adaption (just remapping)
16:20:51[IDC]Dragonit seems impossible to have Menu as a long press (for apply), as well as for a combo press
16:21:15[IDC]Dragonmake the combo inoperable
16:22:48amiconnOf course. My proposal was a little different...
16:30:20[IDC]Dragonyes, distinguishing between "pickboard mode" and "line edit mode".
16:33:48amiconnAs I now thought it over a bit - it shouldn't be hard to implement.
16:34:58amiconnSome of the shortcuts may also be handy for the recorder, e.g. long press of Play to accept (as an alternative, like On+Play<->Play+repeat in the browser)
16:37:41[IDC]Dragonthe cose looks pretty clear, yes (made by Zagor )
16:37:50[IDC]Dragons/cose/code
16:38:26[IDC]Dragonbefore giving it 2 modes, I'm experimenting with just assignments
16:39:01[IDC]Dragonshort press an combo for Menu is also tricky.
16:40:17[IDC]DragonHow did you do such? Did you write extra code to eat the release? Releasing the combo issues another relese.
16:41:42amiconnShort press and combo with menu as shift is easy. There are many examples for this meanwhile, both in the core and plugins.
16:42:00Zagor[IDC]Dragon: I use a _PRE constant. see TREE_WPS in tree.c for an example.
16:42:22amiconnYou have to react on menu+release, but only if you got plain menu directly before (without repeat etc.)
16:42:53[IDC]Dragonso adding a little state machine?
16:43:42Zagorsort of, yes. it's a condition, rather.
16:44:28[IDC]DragonZagor: I see, you used a variable with the last button
16:44:38amiconnThat's what all those 'lastbutton' variables are for. I did that for jpeg viewer, video....
16:45:30[IDC]DragonI'm a button designer newbie (sorry for not checking the commits carefully)
16:47:58amiconnYou can check e.g. jpeg viewer (short menu is zoom in, long menu is zoom out) or video (menu alone is stop seek, menu+up/down is contrast)
16:48:13[IDC]Dragonyep, got it
17:00
17:00:03[IDC]DragonOK, I have an assignment working now, by just remapping
17:00:20[IDC]Dragonnice to have the keyboard back, btw
17:00:54amiconnWhat did you do? So cryptic key combos?
17:01:01amiconns/So/Some/
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17:01:47[IDC]Dragon;-)
17:02:09[IDC]Dragonmove is the arrows
17:02:24[IDC]Dragonmenu Right/Left is cursor
17:02:38[IDC]DragonMenu is char select
17:02:54[IDC]Dragonlong Off is cancel
17:03:04[IDC]Dragonshort Off is accept
17:03:17[IDC]DragonMenu Up in page flip
17:03:26[IDC]DragonMenu Down is backspace
17:03:41[IDC]Dragon(end of flood)
17:03:44amiconnUrgs (especially the Off combos)
17:03:56Zagorgotta go. see you guys.
17:03:57 Part Zagor
17:04:02[IDC]Dragonit's not an Off combo
17:04:40[IDC]Dragonit's accept (short) or cancel (long)
17:04:47amiconnOkay, imprecise speech. But Off==accept is highly illogical. And another long Off function...
17:04:49 Quit _Lucretia_ (Read error: 238 (Connection timed out))
17:05:18[IDC]DragonI know, I just tried to make a remap
17:06:17amiconnI think I'll go for the dual mode keyboard. Maybe I can reuse parts of that for a new player keyboard. The current one is rather cryptic...
17:06:39[IDC]Dragonunless you can think of a better map, I'll commit this as a starter
17:08:14amiconnI think you can't do any better with just remapping
17:09:39[IDC]Dragonfollowing the Zagor design principle "don't change the code"
17:09:52amiconn;)
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17:10:23[IDC]Dragonseriously, I'd just like to get rid of the no keyboard splash asap
17:10:56amiconnZagor Design ®™
17:12:12[IDC]Dragonand celebrate full Rockbox functionality on the Ondio :-)
17:24:06*[IDC]Dragon leaves to celebrate
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17:55:02ScrpWorkI wonder if I'm alive here
17:56:09einhirnHello ScrpWork...
17:57:48ScrpWorkhi there
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18:01:20oxygen77hello
18:01:40oxygen77anybody here with some knowledge on the rtc chip of the recorder?
18:09:19ScrpWorkok I don't even know what you're talking about
18:09:22ScrpWorkso, not me :)
18:09:26oxygen77lol
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23:20:32[IDC]Dragon'night!
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23:30:01kkkkhey
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23:30:21kkkkanybody home?
23:30:28Zagoryes
23:30:34kkkkhow are you doing :)
23:30:39Zagorfine thanks
23:30:52kkkkare you one of the rockbox team?
23:31:06Zagoryes
23:31:17kkkkhow are the projects going guys
23:31:28Zagorfine thanks :)
23:31:37kkkkany major problems?
23:31:47Bagderlack of time!
23:32:05kkkklol..do you work on your projects in your free time yes?
23:32:05Zagoryeah. i need a daytime expansion kid.
23:32:10Zagoryes
23:32:15Zagorkit even
23:32:19Newone^Hello.. Anyone know how to get jukebox studio 10 or its like.. To be seen / used in winxp? archos web site says winxp will auto see it as a usb mass storage device.. BUt it never can find drivers.. < have to of thes.. and tried it on 3 computers with winxp.. any help or links to help would be nice ;)
23:32:43ZagorNewone^: you need a special driver. studio 10 is not usb-storage compliant.
23:32:43Bagderyou need to install drivers
23:32:46Newone^two of these*
23:32:51*kkkk *sends leaked version of Ms ExtraTime to Zagor+Badger
23:33:38Newone^I tried the win9x drivers at archos.. but they see it once.. then seems to mess up and crashes windows xp
23:33:49Newone^any idea where to get the drivers for winxp?
23:33:50*amiconn notices an active Bagder
23:34:07Bagderonly half active
23:34:11Bagdercouldn't sleep
23:34:12amiconnBagder: With the new build system, there is a slight quirk.
23:34:21Bagderwith what?
23:34:34*kkkk quirk..!! tut..
23:35:10kkkkdo you all work on iriver and the archos one or do u have two teams, etc?
23:35:15ZagorNewone^: http://www.archos.com/download/drivers/TPPINST_5_04.EXE
23:35:15amiconnAs soon as one single plugin needs to be rebuilt, *all* plugins are linked + objcopied again (probably because the intermediate .elf files are deleted after the build)
23:35:38Bagderwell, I don't know why the elf file is deleted
23:35:47Bagderit did that before as well actually
23:36:09Bagderbut I'll see what I can do
23:36:18Newone^Zagor .. thank you very much.. will try them now :)
23:36:57kkkkO.o.. one more happy customer!
23:37:54kkkku guys need a hand?
23:38:04Zagorkkkk: we're not that organised. everyone does whatever they enjoy doing.
23:38:22Zagorwe can always use help
23:38:41kkkkah..well i really appriciate your efforts..I recently purchased iRiver one and found out about your group
23:39:32kkkkbut vb is as far my programming skills go so.. lol ill stick with wasting your time on irc..
23:39:38Zagor:)
23:42:24kkkkhmmm so how far are you with the project? still trying to understand the firmware?
23:42:44Zagorno. we are not looking at the iriver firmware, we are porting our own.
23:43:08Zagorwe have the scheduler running and a simple backlight blink demo
23:43:22kkkknice
23:44:06kkkkprogramming firmware sounds alot of fun!!..no use of win32 api im guessing!!
23:44:18Newone^Installed that driver on a clean system.. Now its doing same thing as the others did with the archos win9x drivers.. restarting they computer < crash.. when hook up the jukebox ;(
23:44:30Zagorhehe, no. all code is ours.
23:44:57ZagorNewone^: do you hook up the jukebox when it's on or off?
23:45:13Newone^on..
23:45:20Newone^that a no no ;)
23:45:35Newone^>
23:45:54Zagorno that's fine. sounds like bad drivers then, but those are all I could find on archos.com
23:46:20Newone^Then there the same ones I used..
23:46:37Newone^it sees it after.. and seems ok.. but drive does not show up in My computer
23:47:31BagderNewone^: consider posting a q to the mailing list
23:47:50Newone^ok.. thanks
23:48:13kkkkhey can i ask you guys a random hardware question?
23:48:25Zagorsure
23:48:26Bagdertry us!
23:49:08 Join amiconn_ [0] (~jens@pD9E7F90E.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:49:36kkkklol..well..i recently built a new system, with a 200gb western digital hdd (bad choice!), and the hdd has failed..ive lost 80gb files..i cant connect it up so i cant format the hdd or anything..do u think a magnet could destroy the data? (or shall i trust WD with not reporting me to police lol)
23:50:26 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
23:50:27 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (~jens@pD9E7F90E.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:50:38Zagorno idea
23:50:53kkkkah hmm
23:51:25Bagderif you're scared they might find the contents, then no, a magnet won't be enough
23:51:39kkkklol :\
23:53:39kkkkwhich mp3 player do u guys personally use anyway? archos?
23:53:47Zagoryes
23:54:15kkkkhehe..i was gonna get it but its abit too much for a student :\
23:55:14Zagoryou are probably thinking of the newer archos models. we use the older "jukebox" types.
23:55:39 Join paradox [0] (~45f31293@labb.contactor.se)
23:55:39kkkkoh right..do you guys work in an office or something?
23:55:58Bagderwe are all over the world
23:56:09BagderI guess a bunch work in offices
23:56:10Zagorbig office :)
23:56:28kkkkhehe nice =)..any persians? lol..
23:56:54Zagorpossibly. we don't keep track of everyone's nationality
23:57:14kkkkooh..how many members are we talking?
23:57:32Zagorwell the mailing list has 600 subscribers
23:57:47kkkkhehe how many contribute directly to the project? most?
23:58:09Zagorno, maybe 50-60
23:58:21kkkkah not too bad
23:58:29Bagder86 named in CREDITS
23:58:30Zagornot counting bug reports and such feedback
23:58:33Newone^I have jokebox 20 that seems fine.. but the kids studio 10 and juckbox 5000 are useless now.. < not going back to win9x just to have drivers that work :D
23:58:45kkkklol :\
23:58:47ZagorBagder: I stand corrected :)
23:58:52Bagder:-)

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