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#rockbox log for 2005-01-31

00:09:50 Join Kyllingfot [0] (Taxi@oslo-dhcp-248-180.bluecom.no)
00:16:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:20:07 Quit jyp ("poof!")
00:25:16 Quit silencer_ (Remote closed the connection)
00:52:57 Join jyp [0] (~jp@215.200-200-80.adsl.skynet.be)
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01:00
01:53:34 Join elinenbe [0] (elinenbe_@207-237-225-9.c3-0.nyr-ubr1.nyr.ny.cable.rcn.com)
01:53:34 Quit elinenbe_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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02:23:16 Join midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
02:26:00 Quit edx (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:53:57 Part amiconn
03:00
03:11:40 Quit midk ("Leaving")
03:19:50 Join edx [0] (edx@pD9EAB63A.dip.t-dialin.net)
03:20:01 Quit preglow ("med 1 smil")
03:36:40 Join ashridah [0] (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
03:38:11 Join elinenbe [0] (elinenbe_@207-237-225-9.c3-0.nyr-ubr1.nyr.ny.cable.rcn.com)
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05:07:14 Quit elinenbe_ (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- IRC has never been so good")
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07:46:43 Nick ashridah is now known as hes_in_disguise (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
07:47:04 Nick dwihno_ is now known as dwihno (~dw@81.8.224.89)
07:47:16 Nick hes_in_disguise is now known as ashridah (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
07:49:50 Join midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
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08:04:58 Quit Kyllingfot (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:07:41 Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
08:16:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
08:20:53 Join Kyllingfot [0] (Taxi@oslo-dhcp-248-180.bluecom.no)
08:29:09 Quit midk ("Leaving")
08:33:17 Join midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
08:50:12 Join LinusN [0] (~linus@labb.contactor.se)
09:00
09:09:17 Join einhirn [0] (Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de)
09:42:58HClyay. bootloader iriver is finished.
09:43:15*HCl waits for the reflashing interface and then it should finally be somewhat test/developable
09:43:23rasheroh boy
09:43:37HCl?
09:43:44rasherI'm excited :)
09:43:47HCl :p
09:44:27HClcan't wait till the bootloader/flasher will be declared stable, i've been dying to get my hands dirty on development
09:45:31rasherI'm probably just going to wait a bit longer
09:45:44HCl*nods*
09:46:02HClyea, the audio driver isn't even working yet xD
09:48:02rasherI have a devilish plan of looking at hacking on sid input at some point in time
09:48:24HClsid input..? *doesn't know what that is*
09:48:34rasherc64 Music file format
09:48:37HClahhh
09:48:40HClthat sid
09:48:41HCl :p
09:49:07HClisn't it sort of like midi? or am i completely wrong about that?
09:49:33rasherI guess you could say that in a way
09:49:50rasherIt's not real sound, no
09:49:51HClwell, or more like MOD, really..
09:50:04rasherI don't know any details at all
09:50:05HClsince midi is with instrument crap..
09:55:32HClokay
09:58:21LinusNc64 music is not easy at all
09:58:37LinusNyou emulate a 6510 cpu + the 6581 sound chip
09:59:06rasherthere are a few libraries for that though, aren't there?
09:59:10ashridahheh, that's going to be entertaining on a coldfire cpu
09:59:32LinusNi guess there is some open source sid emulation somewhere
09:59:50HClc64 emulation shouldn't be too heavy... its a c64.. after all.
10:00
10:00:07rasherI think there are two libraries
10:00:09HClhow much cpu power does the iriver have anyways?
10:00:19LinusNmeeting, i'll be back
10:02:30ashridahHCl: a fair amount, one or two hundred MHz, if memory serves, but power usage increases with cpu speed, naturally.
10:03:21rasherhttp://sidplay2.sourceforge.net/ <- c, gpl library
10:03:26ashridahi'd be more worried about whether the sid libraries use floating-point math or not
10:03:37rasherThat might be a problem
10:03:40ashridahbecause that'll require a fair amount of work to fix.
10:05:39ashridahi'd grab a copy of the source code and start poking through it
10:05:57HClnice.
10:05:58HClwell.
10:06:09HClas long as it'll eventually do on the fly playlists
10:06:12HCland play tetris
10:06:17HCli'll be happy
10:06:18HCl :P
10:06:28ashridahi'm interested in flac support a bit
10:06:49ashridahnot sure why, probably only because a mate's mp3 player supports it and i want him to stop trying to lord it over everyone ;)
10:06:52HCli'm a bit curious about aac, it'd be interesting if it'd actually be possible to use the digital out to produce 5.1 output
10:06:59HCllol.
10:07:05HCli don't even know what flac is exactly :X
10:07:11rasherlossless format
10:07:19ashridahfree lossless audio codec
10:07:20HClhow?
10:07:21rasherpart of the ogg family
10:07:39rasherHCl: it just doesn't remove anything that it can't put back exactly like it was
10:07:48rasherlike zip, except optimized for audio
10:07:51HClodd, but okay
10:08:07ashridahHCl: it's basically an on-the-fly decompressible stream, as opposed to an on-the-fly decodable approximation stream :)
10:08:13HClmhm.
10:08:17HCli get the idea..
10:08:39dwihnoI thought lossless audio compression was really hard to achieve
10:08:50*HCl afks for a while.. breakfast.. coffee..
10:08:56rasherYou could run zipped wav
10:09:00rasherBut that'd be horrible
10:09:01ashridahdwihno: it does use more bandwidth, but .wav's can actually compress reasonably well
10:09:26ashridahthe idea is that flac's got the things that make mp3 useful, like framing and whatnot (or whatever's appropriately similar that flac uses)
10:09:27dwihnoashridah: I guess I have to check it out :)
10:09:33rasherIt's just a matter of tuning the compression and making it a stream
10:09:53ashridahrasher: well, no, you need keyframes to allow for quick searching too
10:10:32rasherTrue
10:10:38rasherLast I checked, they compress to about 40% of the uncompressed wav
10:10:43rasherI think
10:10:53*dwihno tests the flac encoder on a recently ripped wav
10:12:09ashridahgiven the signal/noise ratio of my usual listening environments (uni, train, home in a room full of pc equipment and stuff) i don't see how removing the loss from the audio is really going to help me much :)
10:12:36rasherI've pondered using it for backing up my cds
10:12:40rasherbut haven't bothered yet
10:12:46ashridahplus i kinda prefer my music fitting into my iriver h140 atm, with room to spare to be useful as a data transport device
10:14:14ashridahogg gives me a plausible tradeoff between size and quality
10:15:37rasherYes, I'm not really sure why you'd want a lossless codec on a portable player
10:15:58dwihnorasher: Using it for CD backup might be a nice idea actually
10:16:14***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:16:31dwihno29 526 437 bytes, was 50 208 188
10:16:57LinusNrasher: it is pretty useful for recording material that you know you want to edit afterwards
10:17:15rasherGood point
10:17:48ashridahand for taunting audiophiles about the poor quality of their lossy mp3s stored in their ipod >:)
10:17:49dwihnoreally really nice with lossless audio
10:18:24 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
10:18:36rasherashridah: you're forgetting about apple lossless here :)
10:18:54ashridahi don't care about apple.
10:19:20rasherI'm just noting that audiophiles would probably have lossless music on their ipod
10:19:22BagderI like apples. And oranges.
10:19:22ashridahall of the people i know who bought ipods did it because of the colour (i'm not kidding)
10:19:53rasherI don't know anyone with an ipod
10:19:59dwihnoWhat is the resolution of the ihp?
10:20:18Bagderyou mean the LCD?
10:20:18dwihnoarchos is 128x64?
10:20:18ashridahabout 3 of my friends went out and bought iriver H1xx/3xx's after i got my H130 :)
10:20:21dwihnoBagder: yeah
10:20:22ashridahH140 even
10:20:39Bagderdwihno: 160x128
10:20:43Bagder4 greyscales
10:21:00dwihnoaah
10:21:01Bagderor rather, black
10:21:01dwihnoneat
10:21:08Bagderand white + 2 grey
10:21:10ashridahheh. sounds like it's enough to play tetris :)
10:21:43*HCl yawns
10:21:57HClyup, it is
10:22:13rasherI'm impressed by battery time so far
10:22:20dwihnoBagder: Is it a dumb idea to do more than 1-bit graphics yet?
10:22:45Bagderdwihno: so far we only use 1 bit on it
10:22:50 Nick ashridah is now known as Lost-tv (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
10:23:24Bagderbut having 2bit graphics around might motivate us more to work harder on getting it to work ;-)
10:23:59dwihno:-)
10:24:10dwihnoI was thinking about antialiased usb screen ;)
10:24:26Zagordwihno: yeah, focus on the vitals :)
10:24:37Bagderfocus on the fun!
10:24:48dwihnoZagor: as always! :)
10:25:43dwihnoyou guys tested out the bootloader yet?
10:26:04*HCl is waiting till the flash interface is included...
10:26:25HCland till its declared stable, i don't think i could ever acquire a bdm wiggler to fix it if i flash badly
10:26:31Zagorunfortunately, a friend has borrowed my h140 so i can't test it this week
10:26:46dwihnoZagor: how dull :(
10:26:46 Join Lynx_ [0] (HydraIRC@134.95.189.59)
10:27:00dwihnoZagor: well, by the end of the week, Linus will probably have mp3 playback up'n' running ;)
10:27:06Zagorhaha
10:27:07HCl :P
10:27:14dwihno:)
10:27:32Lynx_hi guys!
10:28:30Lynx_been skiing for a week, did i miss anything major happening?
10:29:18HClsorta
10:29:25HCliriver bootloader's working
10:30:25Lynx_cool :)
10:47:14LinusNi'll add a few more safety nets to the boot loader, so hold your bravery until then
10:48:43Lynx_What's the first possible iriver that'll be ported to, H120?
10:49:15LinusNyes (and H140, since they are the same hardwarewise)
10:50:24Lynx_phew, 386 euro for the 120, would you say it's much better than the archos recorder?
10:53:27Zagor"better" is subjective. it all depends what qualities you prioritize.
10:53:54dwihnohow about audio output?
10:54:50Zagori haven't done substantial tests, but at least my iriver has a very faint background noise that my archos doesn't have. it's very very faint though, not at all as annoying as the original archos buzz.
10:56:14dwihnohm
11:00
11:01:59 Join Schnueff [0] (~mah@134.96.247.243)
11:10:42LinusNZagor: like my recorder background noise?
11:12:40rasherZagor: have you tried without the remote?
11:12:50Zagorrasher: yes
11:13:02ZagorLinusN: i don't remember how that sounds
11:13:38rasherI'm pretty sure the remote adds some noise, but if that's not what you talk about
11:14:27Zagorno, i had my headphones plugged in to the iriver directly
11:14:32rasheralright
11:15:00Zagoractually, i didn't notice it until i unplugged my headphones. that's how faint it is.
11:15:13rasherheh
11:15:33rasherI don't think I have anywhere silent enough to go
11:18:22Zagorlunch
11:20:37rasherHm, I can't for the life of me hear any faint noise
11:20:45rasherI guess my ears are just damaged :)
11:22:23 Join amiconn [0] (~jens@pD9E7E390.dip.t-dialin.net)
11:22:27*rasher listens to the iRiver song
11:22:34rasherthis is so cheesy
11:22:37rasherI absolutely love it
11:25:41 Quit Lynx_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:27:04 Join MooMaunder [0] (~me@194.152.87.150)
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11:56:39 Join MooMaunder [0] (~me@194.152.87.150)
12:00
12:07:24Lost-tvthe remote sometimes adds faint induced beeps to the earphones when you use the buttons on it, particularly noticable when you don't have music playing and you're scrolling the file list, and you're in a quiet place. at least, they used to. i think iriver fixed it somehow, not sure exactly.
12:07:24 Nick Lost-tv is now known as ashridah (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
12:08:11rasherThey claimed that in one of the changelogs, but it's still there for me
12:08:28rasherbut I only hear it at volumes less than 4-5
12:08:35ashridahi haven't checked tbh.
12:09:15ashridahas i remarked previously, 95% of the time, i'm using it someplace where there's already a high level of noise
12:09:24rasheryeah me too
12:10:22ashridahlike a party i went to the other night which i crashed at, and one of the girls in the room snored.
12:10:26ashridahgod that was a horrible night
12:10:45rasherSounds it
12:10:58ashridahi ended up using my iriver to cut out the snoring. i still didn't sleep, but at least i wasn't listening to her
12:11:11rasheryou should have a file of white noise
12:11:18rasherfor such occasions
12:11:20*ashridah huggles the ultra-long battery life in the iriver
12:11:44rasherYes, it really does seem nicely long
12:12:13ashridahit's decently sized, and since it's li-poly, it's supposed to last through more charge cycles than standard li-ion
12:12:24ashridahnot supposed to turn flame-thrower if you cut it either
12:12:24zei once slept in a room with 5 other guys who sounded like they were having a snoring contest
12:12:29ashridahalthough i don't remember if that's true.
12:12:41zei didn't have anything to block out the noise with, but i did manage to get to sleep despite it :p
12:16:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:17:20 Quit midk ("Leaving")
12:46:44 Join Lynx_ [0] (HydraIRC@134.95.189.59)
12:52:27 Join webguest43 [0] (~8f416314@labb.contactor.se)
12:54:56webguest43Hi ! Quick question: is the h140 as big as the 340 ?
12:55:28Zagordid you check iriver.com?
12:56:45rasherIf he didn't, I can understand why
13:00
13:00:31 Quit webguest43 ("CGI:IRC")
13:09:28ashridahyeah, god damned flash-based hell its become
13:18:34 Join webguest43 [0] (~8f416314@labb.contactor.se)
13:19:00webguest43well i tried to check iriver website, but could not find the size info... its flash hell there...
13:20:44webguest43ah found it
13:20:53*HCl yawns
13:21:26webguest43just if you are interested: h120:19mm deep, h140: 22mm, h320: 22.5mm, h340: 25mm
13:23:20*HCl has an h140
13:23:47HCli don't suppose there's anyone who can tell me exactly whats better about the h340? cause from what i saw on the website it just added useless features like a color screen and stuff...
13:25:26webguest43and its 30g heavier, that is 172 > 203g
13:25:53Bagderthe 3x0 has usb "on the go"
13:26:15rasherWhat does that mean?
13:26:45Bagderit can be a usb host
13:26:59webguest43well it connects to digicam, so you can empty your pics on it. I like that, but for the rest you are right, useless features, less fancy remote. They do include a dock though, but as there is no sound output on the bottom it still cant hook up to the stereo via the dock.
13:27:20rasherI'd LIKE a less fancy remote
13:27:25rasherseriously
13:27:42rasherThe h1x0 one tries (and succeeds, I think) to do EVERYTHING
13:28:03rasherbut eh
13:28:07 Join Quelsaruk [0] (~kvirc@80.103.137.92)
13:28:12Quelsarukhi
13:31:08 Join R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@217.30.249.199)
13:31:25webguest43you can buy the one without screen as a spare
13:31:55rasherWell that's extra money spent.. it's not *that* bad :)
13:40:04QuelsarukBagder: are you here?
13:40:11Bagderyeps
13:40:14Quelsarukok
13:40:15Quelsaruk:)
13:41:07Quelsaruki made a small mod in uplang script, using an idea amiconn gave me. I changed the script so it doesn't update the voice line except the eng: line has changed.
13:41:35Quelsarukthat is, if you write the same in english, you expect the voice hasn't changed.
13:41:45Quelsarukwhat do you think about that?
13:42:34BagderI'm fine with whatver you and amiconn agree on. I'm not much into voicing.
13:42:51Bagderexcept for those in my head! ;-)
13:43:03 Quit R3nTiL ()
13:44:17Quelsarukhehe
13:44:25Quelsarukis not just voicing
13:44:36Quelsarukis for updating language files
13:44:37Quelsaruk:)
13:45:07Quelsarukit's horrible if you have to change again all the voices and use previous voices
13:47:15HClokay
13:47:29HClso my impression of the h3x0 was kind of right :P didn't know it could be usb host though, but yea :p
13:47:43Quelsarukamiconn: here?
13:54:07 Join ripnetUK [0] (~mirc@82-70-100-230.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)
13:56:23 Quit webguest43 ("CGI:IRC")
13:58:00ripnetUKive had an idea to make the bootloader safer - how about instead of re-directing the reset vector to the rockbox check-for-record-and-branch routine, we put a jump into a less critical section of the original iRiver rom, such as when switching to radio. That way, if it goes wrong, you can use the inbuilt flasher to reflash. This could be called a 'test' mkboot. Once this is shown to work, the brave can redirect the reset vector to it
13:58:47LinusNbut then it's a lot harder to make it work on different versions of the iriver firmware
13:59:10LinusNsince we have to disassemble each version to find the spot
13:59:58ripnetUKi spose
14:00
14:00:10ripnetUKbut we only need to 'support' one version (verified by md5)
14:00:35ripnetUKim hoping that soon(ish) which version of the iRiver firmware will be irrelevent to me ;)
14:00:37LinusNreally? what about different versions for different parts of the world?
14:00:47LinusNeu/us/kr versions
14:00:50ripnetUKas far as i knew, they were all interchangable
14:01:14ripnetUKmy uk one ran the kr version for a while, with no bad things (tm) happening
14:01:38LinusNbrb
14:16:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:18:11LinusNback
14:19:28ripnetUKi assume its the same reset vector for 'cold start' and 'reset button pressed?'
14:19:45LinusNyes
14:19:48ripnetUKk
14:29:53ashridahLinusN: isn't the only difference is the default language so far as i can tell
14:30:03ashridahi've used the korean and the us version interchangably
14:34:50ripnetUKthe battery life of the iRiver is amazing - i have just copied ~40 gigs onto it, and its still going srong
14:34:52ripnetUKstrong
14:37:55Lynx_damn, is there anything one can do to rescue a non-working compact flash card?
14:38:33ripnetUKi will rephrase that :) the iRiver doesnt update its battery status while plugged into usb
14:38:47rashernice
14:38:51Bagderhehe
14:39:02rasherbut it really is nice battery life afaik
14:40:05ripnetUKyeah, managed to run since ~ 10 this morning with continious disk access... as soon as i brag about how good it is it dies
14:41:43rasherlet's hope it didn't trash your drive
14:41:58rasherI say trash, I mean upset the fat
14:42:00ripnetUKnot too bothered if it did
14:42:26rasherI accidently pulled the usb cable while transferring a file
14:42:40rasherI THOUGHT IT WAS DONE! HOW ON EARTH COULD IT TAKE THAT LONG
14:42:58rasheranyway, I got a few alleged tera-byte files from that stunt
14:42:59ripnetUKi just wiped everything and took a copy from work of my 'off site backup' as I think the drive in my linux box has died... do any linux folk know if a failed (non root, non system) drive (which is simply mounted as /amoutnname ) can compeltely hang linux?
14:43:04rashernothing a scandisk couldn't fix
14:43:27rasherhm, it shouldn't
14:43:39rasherbut I guess it's a posibility
14:44:15ripnetUKthats what i thought, but ive been having unexplained hangs on my box recently, and this morning, it couldnt find hda1 (but hda was there). Its possible i cought the ide cable as I removed a ram stick (to eliminate it), but i cant find out till after work
14:46:47ashridahripnetUK: i've seen things like that take out a linux box completely before.
14:46:52ashridahnot for a while tho
14:47:23LinusNashridah: i've been told that the eu version has a cap on the volume
14:47:31ashridahLinusN: interesting.
14:47:37LinusNeu regulations
14:47:39ashridahthey have visible differences in the splash screen too
14:48:01LinusNrasher: i thought you had to unmount the disk before pluggin the usb cable
14:48:07LinusNunplugging
14:48:22LinusNthe operating system would have said that it was busy
14:49:04rasherLinusN: yeah, although I think you can make it do unbuffered access in which case it shouldn't be necessary
14:49:10rasherbut I forgot to do any of those
14:49:16rasherI was in a hurry :)
14:50:12dwihnoLinusN: you don't have to remove any kernel modules or such? only umount the file system?
14:51:44ashridahdwihno: unmounting will do the trick. so far as i know, the usb-storage driver ensures that stuff is synced to disk properly, although i tend to run the filesystem with 'sync' on anyway.
14:53:59ripnetUKash - fingers crossed its just a failed hard drive then :) cant face the thought of a reinstall at the moment
14:54:35dwihnoashridah: ah, okay
15:00
15:18:52 Quit ashridah ("sleep")
15:24:22amiconnQuelsaruk: Now I am here.
15:28:45 Join jyp [0] (~jp@215.200-200-80.adsl.skynet.be)
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15:38:47HClhttp://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/download/mp3surround/downloadpage.html
15:38:54HClmp3 in dolby 5.1
15:39:03HClmaybe interesting to have alongside aac...
15:39:54Zagorhow many records do you have in 5.1? :-)
15:40:05HCl*shrugs* only a few movies :P
15:40:20HClits still interesting though
15:41:06LinusNthe cpu can only handle 2 channels
15:41:30Bagder"pick which 2 channels you want to hear:" :-)
15:41:38Zagorlol
15:41:38LinusN:-)
15:42:06Zagornow this is what we need, an M&M sorter: http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris/msorter.htm
15:43:04Bagderyay, it does Skittles too
15:48:49HClLinusN: hm, so iriver digital out can't do 5.1 ?
15:51:05ShyKhacks of a format that should have been dead long ago are hardly interesting
15:51:31Bagderthey might be if many people use it
15:51:42BagderWindows, Word and similar comes to mind ;-)
15:52:10Bagderok, windows is not a format
15:52:27ShyKword isn't either
15:52:40Bagderwell, it saves in a format
15:52:50ShyKit saves in many formats
15:52:58Bagderthe reasoning still applies
15:53:07ShyKhardly. doc has many versions.
15:53:12LinusNHCl: no
15:53:13BagderI think they all suck
15:54:00ShyKexactly, they suck, that's why it's uninteresting
15:54:03ShyKas is mp3
15:54:05Bagderhacks of a format that should have been dead a long time ago
15:54:19Bagderbut the amount of users makes it "interesting" anyway
15:54:31Bagderlike FAT32 for filesystems
15:54:45ShyKinteresting to companies that make money, not users who want new better technology
15:55:02ZagorShyK: most users have mountains of data in legacy formats
15:55:33ShyKthat's mainly because companies and various developers don't progress and stick with legacy formats
15:55:39ShyKit's not the users' fault
15:55:45Bagdermainstream users don't want better technology, they want things to work
15:55:54LinusNas far as i'm concerned, mp3 is good enough for me
15:55:57Zagorit's mostly because the old format is "good enough"
15:56:03ShyKit's not about what "mainstream" wants, it's about what can benefit everyone
15:56:29Zagormany non-geeks don't want to change technology every few years
15:56:49LinusNmost "new and better" formats are more about DRM than audio quality
15:56:49ShyKmp3 has been around in large scale since 1995. it's been 10 years.
15:57:06Bagderthen again, I don't think 5.1 mp3 will be a "hit"
15:57:21ShyKnot only will it not be a hit, it will never be anything
15:57:31ShyKno one will adopt this nonsense
15:57:36Zagor>2 channels hasn't taken off outside movies, and i don't expect it will
15:57:37Bagderwell, mp3pro was adopted
15:57:55ShyKhardly, and it's mostly dead by now
15:58:10Zagorwma was adopted. aac was adopted.
15:58:11LinusNmostly by those compelled to jump on the next new train everytime
15:58:20Bagdertrue
15:58:25Zagordrm is the name of the game these days
15:58:38LinusNexactly
15:58:44LinusNmost "new and better" formats are more about DRM than audio quality
15:58:51ShyK"mainstream" users don't want drm because it doesn't benefit them.
15:59:15LinusNthey don't care, or even know
15:59:16Bagderexcept that they can buy such songs from iTunes ;-)
15:59:29LinusNthey adopt drm formats because they don't know better
15:59:39Zagorbecause they don't get any alternatives
15:59:49ShyKeverywhere it's mentioned that drm protected files can be played by "this and this" limited thing. so users know.
16:00
16:00:06LinusNso they buy that specific player
16:00:33ShyKi don't see wma being a hit even though it's widely supported
16:00:48ZagorShyK: witness itunes. users don't care about drm as long as they get their weekly britney spears.
16:01:00ShyKif users really did "use what there is" 99% of people would use wma
16:01:04LinusNwait until the PayForSure campain has gained momentum
16:01:13LinusNthem wma will be popular
16:01:35ShyKwma will never be popular. i've seen people expecting wma to get popular for many years.
16:01:37ShyKnothing's changed.
16:01:51ShyKand drm gives absolutely no benefit to users
16:01:54ShyKso it'll die too
16:01:59Zagoryes it does: it provides content
16:02:03LinusNdon't be so sure
16:02:11BagderI don't see DRM dying
16:02:15ShyKit provides very limited content. users hate limited content.
16:02:21LinusNif drm is the only legal way to get your compressed songs...
16:02:23Zagorusers hate itunes?
16:02:30ShyKitunes is a player.
16:02:35Zagorno
16:02:38ShyKyes
16:02:38LinusNitunes is a service
16:02:46ShyKitunes store is a service
16:03:14Zagorso, users hate itunes store?
16:03:40ShyKusers who use itunes store use it, and that's a very limited amount of users.
16:04:01ShyKthe users who are more "mainstream" than mainstream
16:04:41Zagorthose are the mainstream users. you must accept that you and I are not the average mp3 player users anymore.
16:04:55ShyKi don't have to accept this because the facts show otherwise
16:05:11Bagderwhat facts?
16:06:23HCli kind of agree
16:06:31HClonly idiots will buy stuff that limits theirselves..
16:06:36ShyKsurveys have been made that show users would rather buy cds than pay for songs on the internet, which are protected. itunes barely has any decent content if any, and has a much smaller amount of users than expected. all serious technology websites outcast drm as it's bad for all users.
16:07:14HClbut bill gates has this whole take-over-the-internet planned for the next windows release along with chips to prevent cracked copies of software and movies and whatnot
16:07:24HClso that might have an impact a bit
16:07:37ZagorShyK: so who is it that bought the last quarter billion songs from itunes then?
16:08:09LinusNand who are the idiots that buy all those copy-protected CD:s?
16:08:09ShyKquarter billion?
16:08:12Zagoryes
16:08:14jypDrm will work only if they give the computers for free, since you don't own it any more.
16:08:20ShyKZagor: where's that from?
16:08:26BagderI think the amount of users is so huge so that there will remain users who use DRM and those who don't
16:08:27HClLinusN: i dunno, just a lot of people are kind of stupid if you'd ask me :)
16:08:40Zagorhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050124/sfm059_1.html
16:08:55LinusNHCl: yes, they are called "average users"
16:08:59HCl :P
16:08:59Zagor"1.25 million songs per day"
16:09:00HCli know :P
16:09:10HCli'll still call them stupid though :X
16:09:16ShyK250 million, not billion.
16:09:18LinusNi do too :-)
16:09:18HClmusic is about making music
16:09:20HClnot making money.
16:09:28ZagorShyK: 250 million == one quarter billion
16:09:47ShyKoh i read incorrectly sorry
16:10:05ShyKanyway. if you calculate it, you can see that it's not much at all.
16:10:30Zagori don't like it any more than anyone here does, but denying it is happening does not help
16:11:48ShyKcompanies supporting drm also doesn't help any users.
16:11:57Zagori agree
16:12:02Bagderthey help users buy content
16:12:05Bagderlike itunes
16:12:11Zagorneither do drugs, but still people buy it
16:12:12ShyKanyway, 250 million songs from itunes' start until now is very little.
16:12:21HClwhen did it start?
16:13:12ShyKsecond quarter of 2003 i think
16:14:22HClthen i think 250 million is quite a lot...
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16:14:32HClhow many users is that? by average?
16:14:42HCl15 songs per user..? is that reasonable..?
16:15:18HClso you have like.. 17 million users... hm.
16:15:48HClwell, no disaster just yet, i suppose, if you compare it to the total amount of people that use computers.
16:16:10HCli'm kind of worried about whats microsoft planning though.
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16:16:34Zagorthey are planning to kill itunes, naturally
16:16:35HClwhat microsofts*
16:16:48HClnot just that. they're planning to kill off linux as well.
16:17:02Zagoryeah, but that's old news :-)
16:17:08HCli forgot what that chip was called
16:17:14HClplus they renamed it in order to confuse people >.<
16:17:33HClanyways, new pcs will have this chip that'll make it refuse to run protected programs
16:17:40HCler
16:17:42HClnot protected programs
16:18:25jypNo one with a brain will buy those.
16:18:31ShyKamazon sells tens of thousands of _albums_ every day. cds, not lousy aac files.
16:18:52HCljyp: i don't know. there are a lot of stupid people out there..
16:19:07HCli agree ShyK, i'd much rather have a cd than digital files
16:19:15HClcause you can just lose those files when your pc crashes
16:19:29HCland who's to say itunes store will stay in the air for you to download them again when you want to
16:20:06HCljyp: and seeing as the next windows update will support such a chip, and the one after that will *require* one
16:20:21HClat least, if everything goes as microsoft planned.
16:20:31ShyKthose are rumors HCl.
16:20:46HClsigh, not rumors.. i lost the site, i'll try and find it :/
16:20:58HClthe chip's already present in ibm thinkpad laptops -.-
16:21:43HClahyes.
16:21:48HClits called palladium
16:22:03ShyKMicrosoft will not outcast its main userbase, who is "pirates". Microsoft is deliberately allowing Windows to be used by "pirates". and it's not going to change any time.
16:22:05HClhttp://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,274309,00.asp
16:22:26ShyKextremetech is not what i call i reliable source
16:22:32HClit was first called tcpa
16:22:34ShyKa*
16:22:39HClsorry, i got the first link i found with google :P
16:22:42HClbut fine
16:22:48HCli don't really care if you don't believe me o.o;
16:22:55HClits not like i want to put in the effort
16:23:03ShyKi don't need to believe you or not, there are rumors and there are facts.
16:23:18Zagorpalladium is real, but does not affect the free world. you can still choose not to be bound by bills shackles.
16:23:30HClZagor: yes, but it'll be like how linux <-> windows are now.
16:23:43HClits cumbersome to run linux because its far from as supported as windwos
16:23:45HClwindows
16:23:48Zagorenforcing it can actually benefit linux uptake
16:23:55HClyes, thats very true.
16:24:06HCli'm kind of hoping that'll happen.
16:25:17LinusNthe sad thing is that most users are probably totally unaware of the whole drm thing
16:25:24HClthey are.
16:25:33HCland its not without a reason, companys like it that way.
16:25:39HCltill they're so grown into drm
16:25:42HClthat there's no way back
16:25:44LinusNexactly
16:25:58HClsame exact reason
16:26:06HClwhy microsoft is keeping palladium on the down low
16:26:26LinusNthere are very few conscious users, "with a brain", as jyp put it
16:26:39HCl*sighs*
16:26:40HCl :/
16:26:48HClah well.
16:26:52HCli know i'll resist all the way.
16:27:06ShyKthis will never happen. drm will never succeed in large scale. in order to succeed, especially for big companies, they need "illegal" users. it's an integral part. "illegal" users are the main cause for most successes of software as well as hardware.
16:27:38LinusNnot the media business
16:27:47ShyKespecially the media business
16:27:48LinusNTime Warner doesn't depend on pirates
16:28:07ShyKeveryone depends on pirates
16:28:22ShyKtheir products would gain near to no recognition without it
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16:28:39LinusNi don't get it
16:28:45jypIf I were them, I'd give away the drm computers & make money with the content.
16:29:01LinusNyou mean the dvd:s won't sell if they aren't copied?
16:29:05Zagorjyp: why, when you can make money on both?
16:29:46jypIt's a proven marketing model ;)
16:29:57ShyKLinusN: for example, many people rent dvds in order to copy them. they wouldn't have rented them if they couldn't do that. they'd just download from somewhere.
16:30:42jypFrench people could give their experience with "minitel"...
16:30:56jypthe same approach
16:31:00LinusNShyK: i believe very few people rent dvd:s to copy them, they don't even have the equipment
16:31:50LinusNfew people compared to those who rent them only to watch them
16:31:53ShyKyou base that assumption on nothing as opposed to me, i've been checking things like this on forums and places everywhere. it's a very popular thing to rent a dvd for cheap and copy it.
16:32:21Bagderbased on all my friends, it is very rare
16:32:25BagderI wouldn't do it myself
16:32:25LinusNand how many average users do you think frequent these forums?
16:32:35ZagorShyK: there's a real world out there. full of people who don't even know there are forums where such things are discussed.
16:32:48HClactually, most dvds tend to be larger than dvd-r's, and its not trivial to copy them
16:32:57HClunless you own a dual layer dvd writer.
16:33:03HCland dual layer dvd-r's are expensive
16:33:05ShyKif you think i don't know about the "real world" and the "geek world" you're wrong. i'm not only talking about online.
16:33:08LinusNexactly, and those are pretty new
16:33:09HClcause then you could just as well buy the dvd
16:33:23HClofcourse, creating a divx out of a dvd is well possible
16:33:27HClbut i wouldn't really call that a copy
16:33:34LinusNand absolutely not for the average user
16:33:43ShyKpeople don't care if it's a perfect or not perfect copy
16:33:49ZagorShyK: good. then you know 95% of people don't even have dvd writers.
16:34:26ShyKZagor: i mentioned one example.
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16:35:41ShyKmany people download movies in not full quality, watch them, and if they decide they really like the movie, they buy it. many don't buy of course, many don't have the money to spend.
16:36:18ShyKvery many people have been buying the star wars trilogy dvds
16:36:25LinusNmost of my non-geek friends don't even know how to dowload a movie
16:36:26ShyKwhy? it's not like they haven't downloaded it all
16:36:44ShyKeveryone knows about kazaa at least
16:36:50Bagderno
16:37:11elinenbeLinusN: congrats on the iriver progress... It's looking G-R-E-A-T! Has anyone else tried the bootloader yet?
16:37:21LinusNi hope not :-)
16:37:25Bagderthe iriver rockbox doesn't do anything yet
16:37:38Bagdertrying the bootloader is fairly pointless
16:37:52LinusNall risk to no gain
16:37:58BagderI'll await Linus' change of panic() ;-)
16:38:08LinusN:-)
16:50:33Bagderit struck me that one advantage of adding a bootloader built to the cvs build table, is that then we could offer downloads of the bleeding bootloaders too
16:50:56LinusNyes
16:51:45LinusNalso, we should verify it with the most popular versions of the original firmware
16:52:04Bagderyeps
16:52:17LinusNi think a wiki page with the "approved" versions of the boot loader
16:54:15Bagderok, I added a bootloader build just now
16:54:45BagderI'm considering converting the titles to rotated images
16:54:54Bagderto make each column narrower
16:55:35Bagderanyone with a patch pending?
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16:57:30Zagornope
16:59:12*LinusN browses the patch tracker
16:59:20LinusNlots of pending patches .-)
16:59:26Zagor:)
16:59:35*Bagder pokes LinusN with a stick
16:59:39LinusNouch
17:00
17:02:46BagderI'll also provide a diff-link in the HTML page describing changes in a particular commit
17:03:00BagderI miss that at times
17:03:10LinusNcool
17:05:02Bagderbbl
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17:37:06*HCl returns
17:37:08HClhey markun
17:37:12markunHi!
17:37:15HClsup?
17:37:31markunBusy day.
17:37:34HClmhm.
17:37:34HClsame.
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20:19:58preglowahoy
20:20:30Bagderhehe, my diff-link was pretty lame
20:20:56Bagderhttp://www.rockbox.org/cvsmod/cvsmod-2005-01-31%2018:00:01.html
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20:26:40preglowso, anyone tested the bootloader yet?
20:27:40Bagdernah
20:27:44Bagdernothing to boot yet really
20:29:23preglowsure, coding an off switch first would probably be wise
20:29:43Bagderand something more than flashing backlight ;-)
20:29:59preglowbut i sure would like to code something, but think linus' advice of waiting for someone closer to the bdm interface to test it was good
20:30:08preglowhaha
20:30:34BagderI'll proceed after some further changes by Linus
20:30:55preglowgoodie
20:46:32*HCl grins.
20:56:38HClwhat is minimon exactly? and why is it called that?
20:58:17Bagderits a "monitor program" and I take it is small == mini
20:58:33Bagderhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UartBoot
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21:03:38preglowthe irivers have a functioning serial port that just lack a connector, yes?
21:03:53Bagderyes
21:04:01Bagderafaiu
21:04:25preglowi think someone detected that the original firmware wrote garbage to it, so it probably works
21:04:28preglowwhich is good news
21:04:30Bagderwe should work on getting a gdb stub working for it
21:04:34preglowyes
21:04:49BagderLinus wrote one for the Archos, and he says its not that hard
21:05:05preglowi wouldn't know, i'm not very proficient with gdb
21:05:18BagderI trust his words ;-)
21:05:37preglowheh, i don't see why he should lie, no
21:08:57preglowi even have a level converter chip in my drawer, woot
21:10:29Bagder:-)
21:16:41amiconnBagder: There seems to be a bug in viewcvs, see http://www.rockbox.org/viewcvs.cgi/apps/misc.c.diff?r1=1.23&r2=1.24 . It claims there were no changes, which isn't true.
21:17:10amiconnThere was a change in whitespace (only), but *within* a string.
21:17:29Bagderyes, select unidiff and it is shown
21:18:19amiconnHmm.
21:18:25BagderI guess it has no context sensitivity
21:18:34Bagderso whitespace-change is always just whitespace change
21:20:56Bagderbtw, my diff fix works now
21:21:03Bagderhttp://www.rockbox.org/cvsmod/cvsmod-2005-01-31%2019:40:01.html
21:22:44Bagderah, and the iriver boot build works now too
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21:39:52[IDC]Dragonwhy do we want the bootloader in the daily build?
21:40:04Bagderto make sure it builds fine
21:40:17Bagderand to be able to provide bleeding edge builds
21:40:22[IDC]Dragonfor good reason, we don't do so with the Archos one neither
21:40:51[IDC]Dragonwell, at least no public download
21:41:09[IDC]Dragonand anybody fooling around with it
21:41:46[IDC]Dragon...everybody...
21:41:55Bagdergotta go
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21:50:41HClwhats a gdb stub?
21:55:16preglowa little program for the player that lets you debug it over a serial port, i'd guess
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22:37:20amiconnhi [IDC]Dragon
22:39:30[IDC]Dragonhi Jens
22:39:50amiconnI just sent you an email with some info about my MMC image.
22:39:56[IDC]Dragonyou've been productive yesterday :-)
22:40:08amiconnDid you already find some time to look into it?
22:40:14*[IDC]Dragon looks
22:42:50[IDC]DragonI've just installed a tool to write the image back
22:43:08amiconnDon't you have cygwin installed?
22:43:15amiconnI simply used dd
22:44:04[IDC]Dragonok, can try that
22:44:26*[IDC]Dragon grabs the MMC
22:44:38amiconnYou'll need the virtual device name for the drive (the Ondio or the card reader, whatever
22:44:40amiconn)
22:45:04[IDC]Dragonmy notebook conveniently has a slot for it
22:46:09amiconnOpen the disk management console ("Datenträgerverwaltung"), and check the drive number ("Datenträger <n>")
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22:46:36amiconnDrive 0 is /dev/sda in cygwin, drive 1 is /dev/sdb and so on
22:47:16amiconnI'm certain you don't want to overwrite /dev/sda ;-)
22:47:39HClpreglow: oh.. i thought that was already possible for iriver
22:48:45[IDC]Dragonit doesn't shop up there
22:49:01[IDC]Dragonbut got drive E:
22:49:34amiconnIt has to show up there if it is recognised...
22:49:59amiconnThe drive letter is irrelevant.
22:50:13[IDC]Dragonthe card is definitely accessible
22:51:42[IDC]Dragonbut not shown in "Datenträgerverwaltung"
22:52:45amiconnThat's strange; I never observed such behaviour on all machines I have access to (that's a lot)
22:53:00amiconnDoes the Ondio show up there when you connect it?
22:53:09preglowHCl: nah, only other possible debugging option is bdm, as far as i know
22:53:47[IDC]Dragonlater, can't test now
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22:59:56Bagderyou think images like this would be a good idea for the cvs build table? => http://www.rockbox.org/auto/pix.html
23:00
23:00:47Bagderwould make the columns less wide
23:02:12amiconnMaybe. However, it would be better if readable from the right side. Can't this be done with css?
23:02:14[IDC]Dragonuh, tha's narrow ;-)
23:02:34Bagdernope, css can't rotate
23:02:36[IDC]Dragonhow many more do you expect?
23:02:46BagderI don't know
23:03:03preglowahh, i really dislike rotated table headers :/
23:03:28BagderI guess I should wait until the table is too wide for most people's browser windows
23:03:49preglowheh
23:04:07Bagderthese images are all created automatically by my script anyway, so it is an easy fix
23:08:21preglowit exactly fits in my window
23:08:39preglowahh, no, it's resizes itself :P
23:08:55preglowsmall wonder, then
23:11:02 Join _aLF [0] (Alexandre@mutualite-3-82-67-66-128.fbx.proxad.net)
23:11:04_aLFhi
23:11:21 Quit uski ("Leaving")
23:12:52[IDC]DragonI can't USB-access the MMC in the ondio
23:13:09amiconnHuh?
23:13:11[IDC]Dragonperhaps something broken with hotswap?
23:13:20[IDC]Dragoninternal mem works
23:13:46[IDC]Dragonanyway, later, away now
23:13:50amiconnWorks for me...
23:15:40[IDC]Dragonnot away
23:16:01[IDC]Dragoninternal shows up in disk management
23:16:50[IDC]Dragonah, now
23:17:50 Quit elinenbe (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!")
23:18:36[IDC]Dragonit is /dev/sdb now
23:19:13[IDC]Dragondo you have the command line at hand, to restore?
23:19:46amiconndd if=mmc_dump.bin of=/dev/sdb
23:20:07amiconnBe sure to have the write cache off
23:20:35[IDC]Dragontoo late
23:21:07amiconnAt least don't access it with explorer before removing and reinserting.
23:21:08[IDC]Dragonbut I think it's off by default
23:22:02amiconn(Or accessing it at all via the file system. Maybe the file system uses cached info...)
23:22:05[IDC]Dragon1 GB took 30 min
23:22:20[IDC]Dragonso this may be like 7 min
23:23:01amiconnWrite cache is off by default if you use the Windows supplied drivers. The archos drivers (necessary for player/studio) switches it on by default.
23:24:04 Join einhirn [0] (Miranda@carlsberg.heim2.tu-clausthal.de)
23:35:02HClpreglow: whats the difference...?
23:37:22preglowHCl: the bdm interface is tons more low level
23:37:32preglowHCl: and requires heaps more wiring
23:38:03HClokay..
23:38:16HClbut you still need to like, open up the entire iriver for stuff, right?
23:43:46 Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:45:47preglowyes
23:46:43 Join khira [0] (~khira@trstenik.air.tehnicom.net)
23:46:59 Join einhirn [0] (Miranda@carlsberg.heim2.tu-clausthal.de)
23:47:42khirahey
23:51:08[IDC]Dragonamiconn, dd is still working. I'll leave it overnight now
23:51:14[IDC]Dragonc u!
23:51:25 Quit [IDC]Dragon (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/")
23:51:59 Join amiconn_ [0] (~jens@pD9E7F280.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:52:37 Quit khira ("http://herzeleid.com/")
23:52:40 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
23:52:40 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (~jens@pD9E7F280.dip.t-dialin.net)

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