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#rockbox log for 2005-09-26

00:00:20amiconnthe cursor moves downwards until it reaches the bottom, *then* the start of the screen starts to move to keep the cursor visible
00:00:34Zagorexactly
00:00:35amiconnThis needs storing the dirstart
00:00:41Zagorno :-)
00:00:46amiconnHuh?
00:00:51amiconnThis is how it works now
00:01:08Zagoryes of course we need ONE storage. i'm just saying we don't need one per display.
00:01:17amiconnWe do, definitely
00:01:43amiconn...or maybe you know some kind of magic, show me what it is
00:02:06amiconn...of course with a different number of lines per display (say 11 and 6)
00:02:48amiconnThe thing is that if you start at the top of the list, both displays would have cursorpos = 0 and dirstart = 0
00:02:58Zagorno magic. simply tell the draw routine how big the display is. if dirstart is 20 and cursor is 28 on a 6-line screen, the draw routine has to increment dirstart (in a local stack variable) until it comes within range of the cursor.
00:02:59*HCl thinks of the icky shared file browsing mode the original firmware has
00:03:28HClwhats against doing it multithreaded? aside from it being possibly "bloated" ?
00:03:36amiconnMove 5 lines down, curpos = 5, ds_main = 0, ds_remote = 0
00:04:07amiconnMove another line down, and the remote needs to move down its dirstart, but not the main
00:04:18ZagorHCl: that's all the reason I need to be against it.
00:04:23amiconncurpos = 6, ds_main = 0, ds_remote = 1
00:04:25Zagoramiconn: correct
00:04:37amiconnNow move one up again
00:04:37HClbut with so many advantages of doing it multithreaded?
00:04:42HCli just don't see the point of being against it.
00:04:46HClit makes no sense to me.
00:04:48TiMiD1=6%5
00:05:01amiconnBoth dirstarts need to stay as they are to make it behave natural
00:05:04rasherHCl: do you have makedbj.bat and songdb.jar lying around? They're missing from the wikipage afaik
00:05:11HCleh...
00:05:16HClnot at the moment
00:05:18HClsongdb.jar
00:05:19HClis in cvs
00:05:21HClif i'm not mistaken
00:05:28HCland if its not, it can be built from cvs
00:05:55Zagoramiconn: now I see your point.
00:06:32rasherHCl: I don't take it 06 Jun 2005 is up to date for songdb.jar?
00:06:38HClno idea.
00:06:41HClsorry
00:06:45HCli'm bit busy at the moment.
00:06:49lImbusamiconn: If the remote would page-flip, it had to flip one page back, and it would be in sync again+
00:06:56HClanyone with java should be able to check out cvs
00:07:00HCland run build under linux
00:07:06HCland get a proper songdb.jar
00:07:13amiconnPage flip would feel *really* unintuitive imho
00:07:19ZagorlImbus: yes, but it doesn't pageflip it will scroll the whole screen down instead of moving the cursor up.
00:07:26lImbusyes, I don't like it as well :(
00:07:31Zagor...which I agree is ugly
00:07:47linuxstbIs this up to date? ftp://titania.student.utwente.nl/SongDB.jar
00:07:54lImbusI don't like the current "middle scrolling" on archos as well
00:07:56amiconn..and page flip won't help if the number of lines isn't exactly like 1:2
00:08:07lImbusuh, yes
00:08:17amiconn...which it probably never will
00:08:21lImbushow does iriver solve that problem, btw ?
00:08:52amiconnNo idea, didn't try it
00:09:01ZagorlImbus: the browser page flips. the menu behaves like I want it to.
00:09:07rasherlinuxstb: sep 17 18:27 - sounds up to date
00:09:30amiconnlImbus: In fact I do like the center scrolling
00:09:31HClNO
00:09:32lImbusdon't they show browser on main and remote at the same time ?
00:09:37HCldon't use the songdb of my ftp!
00:09:44rasherHCl: mmk
00:09:49HClits an experimental version
00:09:55ZagorlImbus: yes
00:09:55HClthat generates a database with the updated hashes
00:09:58HClits not suitable at all
00:10:00HClfor end users
00:10:21lImbus(flipping in the one and scrolling in the other is very off imho)
00:11:00amiconnlImbus: The iriver fw *is* unintuitive, and I can't really tell how it behaves with the remote
00:11:15lImbusmhmm
00:11:31amiconnI never used it for real. Only purpose is to flash a new bootloader, or testing specific things
00:11:39lImbus(i need to get one of these irivers, damn)
00:11:41HCli use the iriver remote all the time
00:11:47amiconnBut that would mean I'd have to dig out the remote...
00:11:52HClremote browses slowly
00:12:14HCland i dislike the main unit not being independant of the remote
00:13:05Zagoryou know what will happen if we make it multithreaded?
00:13:24Zagorpeople will as for a "sync" option so the screens show the same thing.
00:13:32lImbusyes, I see
00:13:39amiconnZagor: Why?
00:13:47Zagorand 90% will have it turned on, because that's how they are used to
00:14:00amiconnI don't think so
00:14:10lImbusit would be very unclear to only be able to pause with the part beeing in the wps.
00:14:20amiconnI think there are probably two types of remote users
00:14:28ZagorlImbus: bingo
00:14:42lImbusZagor: feels like cookies ^^
00:14:51HCl?
00:14:54amiconnOne type really uses the remote just as a remote, and keeping the main unit hidden for whatever reason
00:14:58HClZagor: why would we need a sync option?
00:15:04amiconnThe ywouldn't care what the main lcd show
00:15:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:15:13HClyou could just have the wps on main and remote independantly, and browse independantly
00:15:24amiconnThe other type would like to use both displays in a flexible way, like HCl and me
00:15:39lImbusI can see a lot of REALLY nifty feature if the screens are separated (WPS and plugin (specially splitedit or games) at the same time)
00:15:43HClif you want them to show the same thing, you'd simply put them both on wps o.o
00:15:45lImbusbut I see a lot of problems as wekk
00:15:49lImbuss/wekk/sell
00:16:01HClyea, we'll want to be able to play games while controlling music with the remote.
00:16:40lImbusHCl: that would imply the snyc feature, to get both on WPS without special key presses on the remote after having started and choosen the music with the main
00:16:49HClwhat?
00:16:57ZagorHCl: scenario
00:17:13HCllImbus: i'm not saying the remote should change to wps when the main unit does
00:17:17HCli'm saying you can set them to the same thing
00:17:18HClif you want to.
00:17:31ZagorJohn picks up his player. He holds it in his hand and browses his music. He selects an album and presses PLAY.
00:17:49Zagorhe then puts the player in his pocket and fastens the remote on his sleeve
00:17:53lImbusHCl: yay. thats the sync option too many users would use that it's worth to implement the screens separated
00:18:10HCllImbus: ?
00:18:10Zagorwhen the phone calls, he presses PLAY on his remote to pause the music
00:18:17Zagorwhat will happen?
00:18:26Zagorclue: not what John thinks
00:18:34HCldunno, depends on what the remote was set to.
00:18:35amiconnIt would pause the music
00:18:46Zagoramiconn: no, it would start a new track
00:18:49amiconn(if he didn't deliberately go elsewhere)
00:18:53amiconnHow?
00:19:04Zagorbecause he didn't deliberately navigate his remote to the wps screen
00:19:13Zagorso it's left at the browser, since boot
00:19:17amiconnPlay would be resume, and you can't resume when it's already playing
00:19:31amiconn...so play is simply switch-to-wps
00:19:35rasherSo it'd do nothing. Still not what john thinks.
00:19:38Zagorsurely play on the remote starts a new track?
00:19:53amiconnWhy/ how?
00:20:15Zagoramiconn: because there is no joystick with SELECT on the remote
00:20:37*amiconn digs out the remote
00:21:35Zagorat least everybody will think PLAY on the remote starts the track it's standing on. and so do I...
00:21:41amiconnNavi/menu is the equivalent of select
00:21:51Zagorno way
00:22:03Zagornot going to happen
00:22:23amiconnDoing different would be really confusing imho
00:22:35HClwho's good with threads?
00:22:42Zagordoing differently than the LABELLED BUTTONS would be really confusing!
00:22:47HCli'd like to see an unofficial implementation.
00:23:07lImbus(F*CK. I need a rivier
00:23:10Zagor"you think the iriver fw is confusing? check out rockbox, they map the buttons all over the place. PLAY is MODE SWITCH. and NAVI is PLAY."
00:23:19amiconnZagor: We wouldn't be doing different, or at least not different from our implementation on the main unit
00:23:40Zagor...which in itself is way off
00:23:52Zagorand even so it's not an excuse to fubar the remote anyway
00:23:53lImbuswhat ? play is not play atm ?
00:24:09rasherplay is resume/go to wps
00:24:16rasherit's a bit confusing
00:24:19HCli have to say
00:24:21rasherBUT
00:24:25HClthat i found play to be annoyingly confusing
00:24:28HClparticularly the fact
00:24:33rasheryou'd *have* to make the joystick-press play a file
00:24:36HClthat you have to press PLAY rather than stop, to leave filebrowsing
00:24:45lImbusan when I'm in wps ?
00:24:56rasherplay is play/pause
00:25:01lImbuskay
00:25:07rasherbut not in the browser
00:25:09ZagorI think the Iriver buttons need to be reworked completely. They are totally unintuitive.
00:25:15amiconnI think the current mapping is quite logical
00:25:23rasherThen we need to do it before the official release.
00:25:25Zagoramiconn: yes, because you've learnt it
00:25:29amiconnNopes
00:25:34rasherI'm already used to it, and I bet a lot of others are.
00:25:44Zagoramiconn: how can PLAY not playing be logical?
00:25:47rasherI'll try doing a user-test with my father or something
00:25:52amiconnPlay *is* play
00:25:59rasherSee what he expect the buttons to do
00:26:19Zagor...except if you're playing
00:26:23amiconnPlay resumes what was played before, which resembles standard play/pause behaviour
00:26:43Zagornot if you're in the file browser it doesn't...
00:26:53amiconnYes it does
00:27:04amiconnIn the file browser, play is resume
00:27:10amiconn...which makes sense
00:27:22ZagorI mean it doesn't resemble play/pause. nobody expects pressing PLAY on a song to resume playing ANOTHER song!
00:27:34HCli have to agree there.
00:27:36Zagorit can be explained. that doesn't mean it makes sense.
00:27:38HCli've done that.
00:27:48HClonly to find myself going back to the filebrowser
00:27:50amiconnOn a standard CD player, Play would play the currently inserted CD, which is roughly equivalent to resume
00:27:54HCland clicking joystick right instead.
00:28:12amiconnFor playing a new CD, you can't use Play, you need to change the CD before
00:28:20Zagoramiconn: come on, not even you can claim it's intuitive that pressing play on a track does NOT play the track!
00:28:44amiconnI actually do *especially* with play being a side button
00:28:46Zagorthis is not a cd player!
00:29:01lImbusI think beeig as much close to the original iriver firmware is imprtant as well
00:29:02amiconn...which is quite disconnected from the display
00:29:15lImbusa user interface does not neet to be logical to technical people knowing the technic background. if there are labels on the buttons, PLEASE try to follow them as much as possible. the archos has a very approach to that. (except ON is resume and filebrowser)
00:29:17amiconnlImbus: I disagree totally
00:29:27lImbusmigration users ?
00:29:49ZagorlImbus: I disagree too. the iriver fw is way too confusing to want to mimic.
00:29:52amiconnThe iriver firmware is way more unintuitive that we can make rockbox
00:30:04amiconn.ever.
00:30:09Zagorhowever we can't go on assigning buttons to totally confusing functions like this
00:30:25lImbusokay. I badly need an iriver :-) I thought it would help migrating users. if users will be happy to see another keymapping, then they should
00:31:00rashera-b, select and record can be freely changed - but play/stop need to do these things in as many places as possible imho
00:31:17amiconnZagor: I don't see how this is confusing. You navigate through the file list with the joystick. You press it to start playing
00:31:43rasherWell, the iriver's keys do many more things than their labels. Take the "a-b" button. I've never used that for a-b repeat, although that's its main function.
00:31:48Zagoramiconn: it's confusing because the button labeled PLAY does not play. that's all there is to it.
00:32:24Zagorit's the most basic button of all, and we've put another function on it
00:32:25lImbuswhat could the joystick press be doing else then in the the file browser ?
00:32:25amiconnIt *does* play
00:32:44Zagorno, it RESUMES. that is NOT the same thing!
00:32:51rasherBut not the currently selected file, which is what would be expected.
00:33:18amiconnIt plays the current file... not the current file in the browser though
00:34:09Zagoramiconn: yes. and that is completely impossible for anyone to predict who hasn't read the bloody code!
00:34:38Zagorso the user interface does something the user does not expect == bad user interface
00:35:03 Quit tvelocity ("Leaving")
00:35:09amiconnWell, what the user expects is debatable... and there are manuals
00:35:15linuxstbI think if someone picked up an iriver for the first time, they would try and do everything with the joystick.
00:35:23linuxstbWhich is basically how Rockbox works.
00:35:50amiconnI think the current assignment in browser and wps are 100% logical
00:35:51ender`i never expected the play button to return me to the wps screen from the file browser
00:35:57amiconnRadio screen is a different thing
00:36:00Zagoramiconn: if the user has to read the manual to use the interface, the interface is bad.
00:36:11rasher(for basic tasks)
00:36:33ender`i tried every other button, but didn't think play would do that - i expected play to behave the same as pressing the joystick
00:36:39rasherAt least, I believe some tasks my need to come through experimenting/reading the manual
00:36:39Zagoramiconn: yes, they are logical. in a Spock kind of way. they can be explained, hence they are logical. they are however not intuitive.
00:37:00Coldtoastwell, one of the IG reasons ppl go fo rthe ipod is anybody can pick it up and with absolutely no reading whatsoever, be using it effectively within a couple of minutes
00:37:11Zagorrasher: agreed. but not basic things like playing a file...
00:37:13Coldtoastbut the h1x0 series has never been for ppl like that
00:37:20linuxstbColdtoast: That's because there are no features.
00:37:21ColdtoastIG=BIG
00:37:23ender`the original iriver interface isn't bad either
00:37:24rasherZagor: I agree
00:37:49rasherColdtoast: However, the ipod does this by cutting down features.
00:37:51Coldtoastlinuxstb: the only features regular ppl want are "Play. Stop. FWD, REV"
00:37:59linuxstbI also don't think the ipod is intuitive - a long press on play shuts the player down.
00:38:00Coldtoastetc
00:38:16rasherlinuxstb: Haha, excellent! "Press Start to shut down!"
00:38:23Coldtoastlinuxstb: ask the general community tho. For them, definitely intuitive
00:38:51ender`that's deep in the subconsciousness - thaks to 10 years of a certain OS :)
00:38:52Coldtoastthat's what Apple are good at tho. it's their demographic
00:38:52linuxstbI agree, the ipod is generally easy to use, but if Rockbox only had the same feature set as the ipod, it would also be easy to use.
00:39:20amiconnI can't judge about how the ipod does it cause I never operated one.
00:39:27Coldtoastme either
00:39:34Coldtoastbut I know LOADS of ppl with em
00:39:45ColdtoastI've never actually touched an ipod
00:39:51amiconnI doubt that you can make full use of any dap without reading the manual
00:40:26rasherBut man, I'm going to try1
00:40:31ColdtoastI think it should be less of a concern with the h1x0
00:40:46Coldtoastcos we all read the manual when we got them, right?
00:40:59lImbusno, certainly not
00:41:10linuxstbThe basic UI of the ipod is simply a menu - you can't do anything without selecting it from the menu or a sub-menu.
00:41:14amiconnI didn't but the I got it precisely *for* rockbox hacking, nothing else
00:41:21Coldtoastso it's not like ppl are suddenly going to have to do somethign they didn't before. it's really like having a new DAP when you install Rockbox so ppl will be prepared to read
00:41:23amiconnUsually I do read manuals
00:41:35lImbusand (kudos to christi) but I did not read the rockbox-manual before operating the rockbox on my recV1
00:42:28linuxstbThat's something that Rockbox lacks - menus containing the different features.
00:42:37amiconn?
00:42:48linuxstbWhere is the "resume" menu item for example?
00:43:01Coldtoastit might be cool to have a version of the manual ON the player
00:43:02Zagornot a bad point
00:43:08rasherMaybe a "control" menu or something could be added?
00:43:11lImbusyes
00:43:12rasherOr.. ehm
00:43:15rasherthat's a bad name
00:43:23rasherActions
00:43:25rasherMaybe
00:43:30amiconnWhy would you bury an important feature like resume in a menu?? cumbersome...
00:43:43rasheramiconn: Why not have it there?
00:43:44ZagorI don't think the "Rockbox has more features" is a very good excuse for a difficult UI.
00:43:52Zagoramiconn: as a complement
00:44:16lImbus(I am sometimes searching for a feature on different key and key-combos)
00:45:11Zagoranyway, I gotta go to bed. see you guys.
00:45:19amiconnI don't think the rockbox ui is difficult (in general)
00:45:35rasherI don't think any of us are really qualified to say
00:45:45amiconnSome button combos are, maybe. Those are candidates to be put in the menu
00:46:07 Join Paul_The_Nerd [0] (n=paulthen@cpe-66-68-93-2.austin.res.rr.com)
00:46:11lImbussee you zag
00:46:32Zagoramiconn: in general, I agree with you. I just think some button assignments on the iriver port should be reevaluated :-)
00:46:33rashera) we're used to it (more or less) b) we're "programmer" kind of types, hence we're more likely to adapt because we understand the workings behind the scenes
00:46:35*Zagor hits the sack now
00:47:42amiconnrasher: Maybe we devs are biased...
00:48:07amiconnSome things might be debatable, but each mapping has its pros and cons
00:48:09Paul_The_NerdJust wanted to say, on reading the log, I found rockbox confusing upon first install, but once I discovered the play vs. select difference, I rather liked it better. It felt more intuitive, and had I never seen the button labels prior, it's how I would've expected to do thinks, front button being primary.
00:48:12lImbusrasher: see my comment on 29:15
00:48:39Paul_The_Nerd*things
00:48:59lImbusprobably we should provide stickers renaming the buttons ?
00:48:59amiconnLike HCl finds it confusing that Stop doesn't leave the file browser:
00:49:19Paul_The_NerdSee, I always think of the file browser as the bottom level...
00:49:25amiconnStop is supposed to stop playback, right? It does (or should, iirc this is currently broken on H1x0)
00:49:25rasherlImbus: stickers don't last. Heck, even the painting's come off mine by now
00:49:30Paul_The_NerdSo you can't "leave" it. You can "go back to it" or "launch something from it with a button"
00:49:40Paul_The_NerdSo, stop stops playback when you're there.
00:50:04lImbusrasher: I mean we should make clear to the user that play is simply not only play anymore.
00:50:09amiconnOr, like people want to be able to leave the file browser with Left
00:50:17lImbusand introducting screen on the first install could be enough
00:50:28lImbuss/and/an
00:50:33amiconnThe technical reason against this is that the file browser is the top level, so you can't leave it
00:50:47Paul_The_NerdAgain amiconn, that's the result of thinking of the menus as the furthest back you can go, rather than the file tree.
00:50:51Paul_The_NerdYeah
00:50:53Paul_The_NerdAs you said.
00:51:20amiconnBut, the usability reason against it is that it would disable the possibility to go to the root by just clicking Left multiple times
00:51:45*rasher thinks of a way to introduce help
00:51:51Paul_The_NerdYeah, makes sense. If you just hit left as many or more times than you have folder-depth, you know where you're starting from.
00:52:28Paul_The_NerdAlso, I'd like to place my insignificant vote in favore of independent screens on the Remote and Unit.
00:52:34amiconnI actually did think about the button assignment multiple times. I don't see a better mapping for wps and browser on iriver
00:52:40rasherMaybe in each context menu, you could have a "help" entry, which would go back to the screen, and list "overlaid" on the screen which buttons do what?
00:52:41Paul_The_Nerd*favor, ugh, I can't type today.
00:52:47rasherBut.. :-\
00:53:26 Quit Coldtoast ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
00:53:47lImbusrasher: Why not have a help key that makes the first aid when pressing for more than a second. it would then explain the key's meaning in the very situation
00:54:14rasherlImbus: I don't understand that explanation
00:54:24lImbuslike F1 in windows
00:54:29lImbuscontext help
00:54:38Paul_The_NerdDoes the record button do anything yet?
00:54:44lImbuspressing a-b for 3 seconds gets the key explanation page
00:54:45Paul_The_NerdI can't recall ever using it, much.
00:54:49rasherbut then you'd need to know that key
00:55:01rasherBetter have it in a menu if you ask me
00:55:16amiconnPaul_The_Nerd: Not yet, but I think the record button should be reserved for the recording function
00:55:28lImbusboth. key and menu. that's right, but then we can mess up the rest after having explained it once to the user
00:56:03Paul_The_NerdI was going to suggest hold record + another button shows you context-related help to what that other button does.
00:56:14Paul_The_NerdA press of record on its own could still go to recording just fine.
00:56:16*amiconn doesn't understand the new wiki diffs :/
00:56:16rasherPaul_The_Nerd: that can't be done
00:56:20Paul_The_NerdOh, right.
00:56:26Paul_The_NerdWait... it can't?
00:56:28rasherNo keycombos with record
00:56:31Paul_The_NerdOh.
00:56:37amiconnWhat are lines without red << or green >> supposed to tell me?
00:56:37rasherYou can only do keycombos with Play
00:56:38lImbusouch
00:56:43rasheramiconn: context
00:56:57rasherI think.. but sometimes I can't figure it out
00:57:02rasherLink?
00:57:27amiconnhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/rdiff/Main/IriverPort?rev1=1.143&rev2=1.142
00:57:49 Quit Domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:57:55amiconnFirst it says line: 82 to 82, with 3 unmarked lines underneath
00:58:10amiconnThen another heading, Changed:
00:58:12rasheryeah, definately context, but the linenumbers are weird
00:58:33rasherWell, they're showing line 82 to 82 as context, and then after that, something's changed
00:58:34amiconnThen actual changes, then again lines without markings, and without heading/ comment
00:58:51rasherStrange setup
00:58:55amiconnHmm.
00:59:12rasherThey should have "line 82 to 85" for the whole thing, then indent it and mark the changed line
00:59:13 Quit Strath ("Client closed")
00:59:26amiconnEven funnnier: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/rdiff/Main/IriverBoot?rev1=1.105&rev2=1.104
01:00
01:00:00amiconnThe trailing context is shown under "Deleted"
01:00:11lImbusholla
01:00:22rasherThe first line may have been caused because I added a link at the bottom by accident, then deleted it again
01:00:30rasherAnd twiki merges edits
01:01:11rasherAnyway
01:01:52rasherWow, the new misticriver is hideous
01:01:56*amiconn just realised he has songdb.jar and makedbj.bat lying around
01:02:02rasherrecent
01:02:04rasherrecent?
01:02:04amiconnDownloaded 2005-08-18
01:02:22amiconnDunno whether that's recent enough
01:03:02HClsounds good
01:04:32HCli'd say the best way to be sure
01:04:37HClis to build a fresh songdb.jar
01:04:39HClfrom the cvs
01:04:53amiconnIt's definitely not the same as the current wiki version
01:05:13amiconnwiki version is 608KB, my copy is 637KB
01:05:20HClsounds big.
01:05:28HClmy last songdb.jar build was 530k
01:05:33amiconnMe upload
01:08:45*HCl goes to sleep.
01:08:52 Quit dpassen1 ()
01:09:42amiconnrasher: What is "Maybe." at the bottom of MissingAttachments related to?
01:09:58rasherThat I wasn't sure they were outdated
01:10:12rasherI hadn't noticed that makedbj.bat wasn't even there
01:10:25amiconnYes, but does it relate to the songdb files, or the following video stuff?
01:11:00rasherAh, the former
01:11:15amiconnOkay, updated
01:11:48rasherLots of iaudio stuff missing
01:11:48 Quit ender` (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:12:28amiconnYes, and no austriancoder around for quite some time now
01:12:28rasherBut considering how much was missing at first, this is pretty good
01:12:37rasherYeah, wonder where he went to
01:15:06lImbus(me is going to bed very soon.
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01:15:11lImbusargl
01:15:44lImbus( the '(' is very next to '/' on the german keyboard. and it's dark in my room :-)
01:16:17linuxstbJust to annoy some people on the mailing list: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/DSC00368.JPG
01:17:05rasherExcellent
01:17:06lImbusHehe. Dave, is that a iPpod photo showing a jpg ? :-)
01:17:25rasherWouldn't fit the other way round?
01:17:49linuxstbIt's a new 60GB color ipod (the type with unsupported LCD in ipodlinux) running my work-in-progress bootloader
01:18:28linuxstbThe problem with the LCD is that we don't know the commands to set the update region for the LCD. So I can only write to the area where the apple boot-up logo appears :).
01:18:41lImbusWOW
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01:23:30*Paul_The_Nerd would really enjoy a Nano running Rockbox one day.
01:23:43rasherlinuxstb: are any of the ipl guys working on this problem?
01:24:19linuxstbrasher: Yes, I think leachbj is working on it - I think the new LCD is the same in the Nano. So it's the main hurdle to getting ipodlinux running on the Nano as well.
01:24:51rasherWell isn't that nice
01:25:34linuxstbIt really shouldn't be that hard to get Rockbox working. I haven't spent much time on it, but now I have the LCD partially working, I can continue with the rest of the tasks.
01:25:38Paul_The_NerdThe only flash-based player I've got is a dinky little muvo someone gave me.
01:25:52rasherI'm going to be insanely jealous once rockbox runs on ipod :-\
01:25:53Paul_The_NerdBut I keep wanting one, and the Nano seems like it might be a good choice.
01:26:26rasherlinuxstb: fixing rockbox in the "apple logo" window and let the ipl guys work out the lcd?
01:26:48linuxstbYes.
01:26:53rasherSounds like a plan
01:27:14linuxstbI'll have Rockbox running in a 78x100 pixel window - but with 16-bit colour :)
01:27:24Paul_The_NerdHahaha, nice
01:27:34amiconnFor me, rockbox on ipod is only interesting from a hacker point of view - "yes, it can be done"
01:27:48amiconnI wouldn't want one
01:27:51rasherThe rockbox is nice in my eyes because it's flat
01:27:57rasherand slim
01:28:16linuxstbI prefer the ipod hardware to the H140. Mainly because of the colour LCD and smaller size (about 2/3 the depth with no joystick sticking out).
01:28:18rasherI'm mainly thinking form factor and possibly touch-wheel, but I've never actually used that
01:28:28rasherYeah, the joystick annoys me.
01:28:42amiconnlImbus: Hehe, the colour lcd is exactly a reson why I do not want an ipod
01:28:44linuxstbI don't really use the FM, and I don't record.
01:28:49Paul_The_NerdAaah
01:28:53amiconn...the wheel thingy being another
01:28:54linuxstb... or the optical I/O.
01:29:03amiconnI don't like the H1x0 joystick either
01:29:08linuxstbYes - the wheel thing is a drawback.
01:29:17amiconnI prefer plain & simple buttons
01:29:29Paul_The_NerdAre there any other flash based players out there that might be likely Rockbox targets?
01:29:38linuxstbThere are five real buttons on the ipod (plus a hold switch).
01:29:51amiconnPaul_The_Nerd: Rockbox does run on flash players...
01:30:50Paul_The_NerdAren't the ondios very limited in storage capacity?
01:30:53Paul_The_NerdAs in, onboard?
01:30:59linuxstbamiconn: Why don't you want a colour LCD?
01:31:07rasherVisibility
01:31:18rasherEhm, that's not the right word
01:31:22amiconnIt draws more power, isn't readable w/o backlight, and is simply unnecessary on a dap
01:31:56amiconnI would also prefer my mobile phone not having a colour lcd, but those are rare these days
01:32:24amiconnWell, if the colour lcd type that is readable w/o backlight would become more widespread....
01:32:51amiconnStill unnecessary for any of the main uses of a dap though
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01:33:18amiconnFM is nice to have for me, recording being somewhat important (although I don't record often)
01:33:49amiconnDigital i/o isn't important for me atm, but that may change
01:34:04linuxstbThe colour LCD wasn't the reason I bought an ipod (I thought the same as you) - but now I've seen it, I much perfer it to the H140's display.
01:34:46amiconnI did have a look at a colour LCD DAP
01:34:50amiconn(H3x0)
01:35:04amiconnDidn't like the screen
01:35:14rasherFM is a joke to me - I can only really reach local stations which, quite frankly suck. All 2 of them.
01:35:27amiconnrasher: Ondio FM is better...
01:35:28linuxstbBut I also think it's how well the UI is designed - Apple have kept the use of colour to a minimum (i.e. very few different colours), so it works well.
01:36:03linuxstbIt's mainly just black text on a white background with a blue scrollbar.
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01:36:41linuxstbThe status bar is in a different colour (gradient-filled) with a green battery icon.
01:39:22amiconnrasher: I wonder what's wrong with the iriver FM. Bad antenna hookup perhaps??
01:40:42amiconnrasher: Did you try with the remote or without?
01:43:38rasherWith
01:43:44rasherBut I think both goes
01:44:30rasherBut.. there are not a lot of radio stations near me in the first place. However, other pocket-sized radios have been working better.
01:45:10rasherI'll try with and without remote, with different headphones
01:48:42rasherMoving around changes reception strength a lot
01:48:47rasherSo I may be in a very bad spot
01:49:05rasherIn my apartment, that is.. haven't tested radio other places
01:51:48rasherA periodic table.. now there's a handy plugin
01:52:19rasherexcept I guess, if you need a periodic table, you usually have one
01:53:09rasherI *think* I get better reception without the remote
01:53:13rasherbut it's hard to tell
01:53:40rasheryeah, I do
01:53:56 Quit markun ()
01:55:17rasherThese headphones give better reception, maybe because of the longer wire
01:56:43*rasher wonders if his codecs were not updated
01:56:54rasherStill getting sluggish interface with alac
01:57:49rasheroh sheesh
01:57:56rasherforgot to unmount/sync
02:00
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02:03:40linuxstbrasher: I don't think the alac is as responsive as other codecs, but it's a huge improvement over the first version.
02:04:12rasherlinuxstb: Well, I hadn't updated the version - still using an old rockbox :-\
02:04:25linuxstbThat will explain it then...
02:04:36rasherIndeedly
02:05:00rasherUnmounting helps when using drives mounted with "async"
02:05:23rasheroops, config bump
02:05:58rasherYeah, much better
02:06:14linuxstbDo you agree that it is still slightly sluggish?
02:06:16rasherstill sluggish if you turn the music up more than ~30 steps at the wrong time
02:06:52linuxstbOK, it seems I will need to start yielding inside some of the loops in libalac. Not fun.
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02:07:06rasherI solved the "mystery" of the podzilla fonts using an old version of Rockbox fonts
02:07:27rasherSeems that the person wrote the initial implementation for Rockbox is the author of Microwindows
02:07:34rasherwhich podzilla is based on
02:08:13rasherusing.
02:08:57linuxstbAh. So Rockbox is using the Microwindows fonts, rather than podzilla using the rockbox fonts?
02:09:20rasherYeah, pretty much
02:09:25amiconnRockbox gfx is based on microwindows as well
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02:12:29rasheramiconn: any ideas how to handle input in hebrew/russian/etc?
02:12:44rasherCurrently people can only input in 8859-1 :-\
02:13:47amiconnNot really
02:14:13rasherCreating a rockbox_default-8859-8 ?
02:14:20rasherand letting the user set charset in an option somewhere?
02:14:25rasherOh darn, it's compiled in
02:14:27rasherwon't work
02:14:29amiconnThe default font is builtin
02:14:32rasherYeah.
02:15:07rasherHow will that work with unicode, I wonder
02:15:11rasherhuge font to build in
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02:16:26amiconnI don't think this is an option
02:17:33rasherNah, just keep it like now
02:18:00*rasher stabs gnome people
02:18:05amiconnI think the builtin font just needs to support iso8859-1 (for displaying error messages if no font is found, debug menu etc)
02:18:10rasheryeah
02:18:23rasherBut should not be used for the vkeyboard
02:18:32amiconnAll other screens should adapt to various fonts
02:18:57amiconn(perhaps having a fixed-width font for certain purposes)
02:19:00rasherof course, we don't want to show all of unicode in the vkeyboard, the user should pick a default "section" or whatever those are called in unicode-lingo
02:19:33amiconnThe keyboard layout could be defined by a configuration file
02:19:47amiconn...or better still, a section of the language file
02:20:28rasherThat seems sensible
02:20:43rasherAlthough I expect I'd want a english-dk version
02:20:44amiconnEach vkeyboard line could be simply a language string
02:20:57rasherUnless english uses 8859-15
02:21:01rasherWhich I guess is sensible
02:21:32amiconnIf a string isn't included in the language file, rockbox automagically uses the builtin string, which is usually english
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02:21:43rasherThat reminds me
02:21:53rasherDoes the configure language-chosing thing work now?
02:22:04rasherAt some point it didn't matter what you answered to that question
02:22:35amiconnHmm, the simple method might not work that well
02:22:45rasherWhich?
02:23:09amiconn(1) The number of chars visible depends on the font, if we allow the vkeyboard to use a loadable font
02:23:38amiconn(2) The number of keyboard lines / pages depends on the language
02:23:49*rasher thinks
02:23:54amiconnChinese will definitely use more pages than english
02:24:06rasherChinese will need some zany input-method
02:24:35rasherThey do some crazy thing to use semi-regular keyboards I think
02:26:39amiconnHmm, perhaps we should keep one default font.
02:27:17amiconn...with a fixed size, and full unicode. Only the 8859-1 part would be builtin, the full version would reside on disk
02:27:49amiconnThen the language string size method would work well,
02:28:18amiconnand it would be easy to adapt it to different screen sizes with v2, as that allows different strings per model
02:29:20amiconnWe'd still need to solve the different-number-of-strings problem...
02:32:02 Part Zoric
02:42:14rasherMaybe with keyboard scrolling/flipping?
02:42:50*rasher has a lengthy argument with hal-device-manager about how to mount his iriver
02:55:13*rasher wins
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02:58:30rasheror maybe not
03:00
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03:01:19rasherThere we go.
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03:18:03rasheramiconn: I don't understand your last commit message?
03:45:34Paul_The_NerdO_O
03:45:47Paul_The_NerdI just updated to the newest daily build, and suddenly my Wps no longer shows any images.
03:49:55rasherWhen did you last update?
03:51:31Paul_The_NerdMaybe a week?
03:51:46rasherHm, that's strange
03:51:57rasherCan you show an image line of your wps?
03:52:00rasherwell, you can
03:52:01rasherdo it
03:52:19Paul_The_Nerd%x5|Boxes.bmp|1|8|
03:52:29rasherYeah, that's wrong
03:52:33Paul_The_NerdI don't even know if the syntax is good. I just slightly modified the JamesGao one.
03:52:48rasheryou need to do %xd|a|Boxes.bmp|1|8|
03:52:59Paul_The_NerdBut the image portion I didn't. I just threw in an extra alignment tag, and took out the peakmeter
03:53:28rasherSounds very strange if it was working with a daily from a week ago
03:53:37rasherthis syntax hasn't been valid for a few weeks
03:53:44Paul_The_NerdHrm
03:53:54Paul_The_NerdIt's possible I downloaded it but forgot to copy it over.
03:54:09rasherhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CustomWPS#Using_images
03:55:01Paul_The_NerdThat actually doesn't have the d in %xd.
03:55:09rasherah
03:55:14rasherright, I'm misremembering
03:55:24Paul_The_NerdThe image isn't preloaded
03:55:26Paul_The_NerdBut I got it.
03:55:37rasheryeah, I was mixing the two up
03:55:56Paul_The_NerdThanksd
03:56:04rasherglad to help
03:56:09Paul_The_NerdI can write simple plugins, but never even looked at the WPS code. =/
03:56:47Paul_The_NerdI found one that looked good, modified it as soon as the multi-align patch was in, then assumed I'd never need to know it.
03:57:31rasherThe wps code is approaching line-noise each time a patch goes in
03:58:14rasherIt's simple enough, just not very entertaining
04:00
04:00:48Paul_The_NerdIf you could define how it worked simply by saying it, what would you want from it?
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04:15:18rasherHm?
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04:35:14ashridahpity the ssam demo only has one level
04:36:27rasherssam?
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04:44:41ashridahserious sam 2
04:45:48rasherAh.
04:46:27*rasher laments the lack of grayscale support in the sims
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04:59:05*rasher pines for nestable C-style comments
05:00
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05:03:22random_manhello
05:05:07rasherhello, random man
05:05:31random_mani think i found a bug but not sure and speaking of rasher. you do the patched versions of rockbox right?
05:07:55rasherI do
05:08:32rasherWhat's the bug?
05:09:28random_manwhen i go to turn status bar on it shows status bar in the menu but when i go to wps screen it does not show the status bar
05:10:33rasherYeah, there's something weird going on with that
05:10:51rasherI had to manually apply the "wps tag for show/hide status bar" patch
05:10:54rasherI might have messed it up
05:11:02rasherOr the patch is buggy
05:11:17random_mandid you add the thing that shows the hold button on remote in the status bar?
05:11:19rasherI'll try the patch on a clean build and see if it's buggy
05:11:28rasherYeah
05:11:37rasherI didn't write the patch though
05:11:49random_manso if you have that in ur wps the %wd and then you go to main menu or something the status bar will show up but wont on wps screen?
05:11:58rasherYes
05:12:18random_manthast kinda a cool feature
05:12:21rasherAgreed
05:12:47rasherI'll have a look-see about whether it's my fault, or the patch is buggy
05:13:02random_manok
05:15:11random_mannice talking to ya. i have to go. later
05:15:41rasherBye
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08:17:28LinusNhi
08:19:31amiconnmorning
08:20:09LinusNmorning amiconn
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09:58:26ZagorLinusN: how's your head today? ;)
09:58:33LinusNaching
09:59:35LinusN(not because of the wine consumption, but because of my ears not coping with the pressure difference when flying)
09:59:42Zagorow
10:00
10:00:07preglowmine are aching from wine consumption...
10:00:13preglowmine is, at least
10:00:18Zagoryour heads? ;)
10:00:38LinusNanyway, 4 days of more or less constant wine and beer drinking makes you pretty tired... :-)
10:00:56preglowa weekend worked pretty fine for me too
10:01:04preglowthey have very nice beer in denmark, apparently
10:02:10preglowbeing a beer fanatic, i had to try every type i found, and there was no shortage
10:06:45HClhi
10:06:54HClhello my alcoholics
10:06:57HClsup? :p
10:07:14preglowhaha
10:07:20preglowall's good
10:07:23HCl :)
10:07:50preglowback home again, with a cup of tea in front of me and chiptunes blasting out of the speakers
10:10:13*preglow tries alac
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10:17:20preglowfeels like it could use some optimisation
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10:50:02[IDC]DragonHi
10:50:26HClmorning
10:52:35*HCl goes to build a clean songdb.jar
10:53:41*HCl prods rasher
10:53:49HClrasher: SongDB.jar on my ftp should be fine
11:00
11:08:11*Zagor just signed for a huge Dual Xeon server
11:08:38Zagorchrist, it's heavy
11:08:58preglowfor whom? :P
11:09:05Zagorfor meee! :-)
11:09:32preglowargh, there's a computer on the network that has zero network usage, but still manages to lag everything to hell when it's connected
11:09:41amiconnZagor: Why not opteron?
11:10:42Zagoramiconn: it's a Dell and they don't carry AMD unfortunately.
11:11:42preglowdidn't they start considering it?
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11:12:10Zagorperhaps. they didn't have it when I ordered anyway.
11:16:45preglowno, i don't think they've got them yet
11:17:02preglowbut they're considering selling amd, or some such
11:17:53amiconnHP carries AMD
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11:40:04[IDC]DragonVladoman: bouncing in, or for real?
11:42:27ZagorI'm getting depressed about Neuros already. It seems they haven't really learned much after all.
11:42:37LinusNjanus?
11:42:45Zagoryes
11:43:13Zagorthey seem to have this illusion that they can mix and match free and proprietary software any way they like
11:43:27Zagorpick the cherries off all the pies
11:43:54LinusNthat's my impression too
11:44:52VladomanI still don't get why they want DM320 for an audio only player
11:45:21ZagorVladoman: just so they can use the same board for all their models
11:45:49Zagorit makes sense if the chip isn't very expensive in itself
11:46:17preglowZagor: any new discussions?
11:46:56Zagorpreglow: yes, on their mailing list
11:48:08preglowi was under the impression they only planned to use proprietary software on the dsp
11:48:26Zagorthey also want to add DRM
11:48:37preglowahahha
11:48:37Zagor...and I expect that is just the beginning
11:49:04preglowwell, it'll be pretty much impossible to involve us with a clear conscience, then
11:50:53rasherSeems like they aren't doing their homework
11:51:34*Zagor feels like the lone teacher in a very very noisy class...
11:52:28linuxstbI wonder if their target audience is one which uses DRM anyway. Have users been asking for it?
11:52:48rasherHm, nterestingly, I never managed to get on that mailinglist
11:52:50Zagorlinuxstb: that's what I think too. but it's hard to tell them what their audience is :-)
11:53:01preglowjust say no to drm
11:53:13Zagorrasher: my words exactly
11:53:24linuxstbBut I can understand why they think they need to support it. They need to tick as many boxes as they can in feature comparisons.
11:53:31preglow'course
11:53:33Zagori mean preglow
11:53:48preglowbut if they're taking that route, i don't see why they're talking to us
11:53:58linuxstbI'm assuming they will also want a WMA decoder.
11:53:59preglowslightly optimistic, perhaps
11:54:08Zagorrasher: sourceforge mail servers are very picky. it connects back to the sending mail server before accepting the mail. I had problems with SF lists too before I realized that.
11:54:21preglowlinuxstb: well, that part is very doable
11:54:43linuxstbYes - it would be good for us if Neuros do that job.
11:55:23rasherZagor: weird, I'm pretty sure I'm on other sf lists with that address
11:55:47Zagorrasher: yes, i think this is a new policy.
11:56:07Zagorcheck your mail server log for rejection. at least that was my problem.
11:56:10linuxstbWhat's the link to the Neuros mailing list?
11:56:33rasherWell, I'm not too concerned with getting on the list now
11:56:59Zagorlinuxstb: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/neuros442linux-main
11:57:13linuxstbThanks.,
11:58:36Zagori wonder if they start think i'm being a pain in the ass on that list... :-)
11:58:52*LinusN will soon be too
12:00
12:04:13VladomanI do not understand they way they are going - if they want ot be THE open source DAP, then use a CPU that is fully open and profit from all the open source movement
12:05:23preglowopen source friendly dsp processors aren't very common
12:06:09Vladomanyou do not need a "DSP" to decode audio
12:06:38preglowthey're talking video
12:06:58preglowand with video and audio, a 200mhz arm MIGHT not be enough, although i'm not completely certain about that
12:07:24preglowdepends on if the source material is encoded for the same screen dimensions they're using
12:08:03Zagor...and if you have crazy optimizer geeks on your team or not :-)
12:08:18linuxstbEven then, I think a "normal" CPU would struggle with video.
12:08:39Zagoryes, maybe
12:09:06preglowvery difficult to say, you can do a lot with a 200 mhz arm
12:09:23Vladomanmaking an open source audio player is something that I can be done right now,
12:09:39Vladomanbut making an full open source video player is something different
12:09:49preglownah, i wouldn't say
12:09:52LinusNpatent-ridden?
12:09:53preglowjust steer away from using dsps
12:10:17preglowif you want to make a patent free video player, then you're right
12:10:24preglowtheora not being done yet
12:10:48VladomanWell, look at what the 700MHz XScale can (or can't) do - then compare it even to the smalles DSC21 used in the first PMP the JBM20
12:10:51preglowthey want to use _MICROSOFT_ drm????
12:10:54linuxstbThe BBC are working on a free video codec as well - but again, I think that's in the very early stages.
12:11:09preglowlinuxstb: dirac?
12:11:11preglowlinuxstb: very early stages
12:11:18linuxstbYes, that's it.
12:11:28preglowand it's a wavelet based codec, might be very costly to decode
12:11:44VladomanI guess it runs fine a a 3GHz CPU :-)
12:11:49Vladoman*on a
12:12:08linuxstbI hate to imagine how much a broadcast like the BBC has to pay in encoder license fees.
12:12:12Vladomanso you need 5 Ipaq - make also a bigger screen :-)
12:12:40preglowlinuxstb: oh, you can be certain they've got some pretty nice deals
12:13:07Zagorpreglow: even so, you can be certain they are paying muco dineros for it
12:13:12preglowZagor: oh yes
12:13:47linuxstbIt's possibly in their annual report somewhere.
12:14:09preglowit pretty much has to be
12:14:13Zagormost likely mixed in with general "IT costs"
12:14:17preglowbut i'm not looking :>
12:14:25linuxstbUnless it's hidden due to "commercial reasons".
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12:16:05Vladomanhas anybody seen/used the Neuros 442?
12:16:15preglowbut if neuros are going to keep at it like this, i don't know how interested i'd be in helping them
12:16:48preglowit's blatantly obvious that you can't mix drm into rockbox and have it work with no tears
12:17:00preglowespecially not microsofts drm
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12:18:04ashridahdrm wouldn't be a problem if it was based on an open encryption
12:18:09preglowthey never are
12:18:14Zagorpreglow: it's also blatantly obvious Microsoft is not going to license their DRM to a linux or open source-based product
12:18:21MoosGood'day folks
12:18:32ashridahthe problem would be giving the media tools confidence that we couldn't transfer the key to someone else
12:18:35preglowbtw, do you know what's needed to cross license a project like this?
12:18:40ZagorI looked at their license yesterday. It specifically REQUIRES obfuscation and/or encryption of the code.
12:18:43preglowpermission from all contributors?
12:19:00Zagorpreglow: yes, at least all major contributors
12:19:19preglowwhere do you draw the line?
12:19:43Zagorthere is no strict line. there rarely is in the law. :-)
12:19:54preglowwouldn't even the smallest contributor be able to retract his contributions?
12:20:14linuxstbDo you have current contact information for all the contributors?
12:20:40Zagorafaik (and I'm obviously not a lawyer) the contribution must have some substance or "weight" for it to count as copyrightable. a two-line patch likely does not suffice.
12:20:54preglowi'm eagerly awaiting Microsoft Rockbox
12:21:00Zagor:-)
12:27:30linuxstbpreglow: ALAC hopefully just needs more yields() adding to it - I think it should already be fast enough to not slow down other things.
12:27:48linuxstbI'm getting about 40% CPU boost.
12:29:18preglowi was getting less
12:29:45preglowstill too much for my tastes :)
12:31:27preglowstill some iram left as well
12:32:42linuxstbYes - but I have the same problem as you - no way to test optimisations.
12:33:08preglowahh, yes
12:34:16preglowa lot of stuff left to be optimised here, yes
12:34:28preglowi'll do the filter loop some time
12:45:55Vladomanlunch
12:46:59FebsBlech, has anyone seen the new Mistic River? It's absolutely hideous.
12:47:29rasherCompletely.
12:48:20FebsI couldn't even stand to read posts there for 10 minutes. The eyestrain was giving me a headache.
12:50:31preglowyes, it is kind of intrusive
12:51:55linuxstbPlus all the URLs have changed for the forums.
12:52:03linuxstbSo no links work any more.
12:52:19preglowhow neat
12:52:30FebsHmm. Reading yesterday's log, I see that "hideous" is the exact term Rasher used. Great minds think alike! ;)
12:55:56rasherDark colours, low contrast. Heavy on screen real-estate. Can't say I like it.
12:57:42preglowgrey on black = great reading condition
12:59:15linuxstbIs it possible to customise the style if you log in? I'm not registered there.
13:00
13:00:01rasherNo
13:00:05rasherSadly not
13:00:36*rasher posts to the announcement thread
13:01:08*rasher wonders why he has only 4 posts
13:01:15FebsActually, yes. User CP −−> edit options −−> forum skin −−> test. I think that Jeff *just* put that in based on fairly strong negative feedback about the new design.
13:01:46rasherThank god
13:01:56linuxstbI was about to quote this thread: http://www.misticriver.net/showthread.php?t=29422
13:02:08Febsrasher, my thoughts exactly.
13:03:03rasherStill confused by the posts count thing.
13:03:27FebsI don't pay any attention to it.
13:04:18rasherMe neither, usually. It just striked me as fairly odd, since searching for posts by me, give >150 posts.
13:05:16FebsThey have postcount turned off for the lounge. I think that the Rockbox forum was originally considered a lounge, and so posts there don't count towards post count.
13:05:32FebsAnd I'm sure that's where most of your posts are.
13:05:38rasherOh yes.
13:06:19rasherStrange policy :-\
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13:07:04rasherNice, my post was removed from the thread.
13:07:34tucozHi, do you think we should add Keymapping to the list of bugs/or-some-other-headline to the list of things to do before a iriver release (IriverStatus)?
13:09:05tucozMight just add it under Release Critical features
13:09:50rasherYeah, it needs to be worked over before releasing
13:10:39tucozJust adding a comment to that
13:11:06linuxstbBut it's not just keymapping - it's the whole UI that needs thinking about.
13:13:33tucozah, that is true. Do you also agree that the menu (settings etc) need to be taken care of?
13:13:50linuxstbThey need to be thought about. Maybe they will stay the same, maybe not.
13:16:38tucozlinuxstb: congratulations on your progression with your ipod!
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13:17:28linuxstbThanks. It's not much, but at least I can now partially use the LCD.
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13:18:55tucozcool
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13:22:15preglowlinuxstb: do you post this progress anywhere?
13:23:13rasherpreglow: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/DSC00368.JPG
13:23:25rasherThat's about it, I think
13:23:36rasherand he's explained a few things here
13:23:59rasherBut what he found out was pretty much already known by the ipl people, it turned out
13:24:29preglowooooh, nicety
13:25:37preglowlinuxstb: do you know on which level the differences in the portalplayer chips are? will we need a separate build for each gen ipod?
13:28:20linuxstbThere are bigger differences in things like the LCD and keypad drivers than the PP chips themselves. I think it makes sense to have at least different builds for the different LCDs and keypad combinations.
13:28:39linuxstbAnd if we do that, we already have separate builds for the different processor revisions.
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13:29:22linuxstbipodlinux does everything at runtime - I'm slowly documenting where the precise differences are between hardware revisions.
13:30:30preglowyes, i figured they were doing that
13:30:36preglowbut food time
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14:29:59Zagor"Company shall use commercially reasonable efforts in Company's industry to design Final Products to prevent third parties from reverse engineering, decompiling or disassembling"
14:30:15Zagor^^^^ Microsoft's DRM license
14:32:46preglowsurely, open source distribution must satisify these requirements :>
14:33:01linuxstbSounds "commercially reasonable" to me.
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14:33:57linuxstbIf you provide the source, there is no need to reverse engineer, decompile or dissassemble.
14:34:12linuxstbTherefore it is prevented.
14:35:06Zagorlinuxstb: yeah, but naturally there's another paragraph that says the source is more valuable than your kids
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14:56:32bluebrother^is somebody in here having a good knowledge of doxygen?
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15:04:02rasherHm, my matrix plugin thing is now using grayscale, but it's still not very dynamic :-\
15:04:04rasherI think I broke it
15:12:09preglowwhat's the matter with it?
15:12:22rasherIt just displays characters in the same rows
15:12:42rasherIe. the same 3 or 4 rows
15:13:07rasherIt's always done that
15:13:14rasheriirc, it works better in the sim
15:13:17preglowsource hanging around?
15:13:33rasherHang on
15:14:00rasherit's a bit messed up, because I didn't know which defines to use for grayscale, so it currently only builds for iriver
15:16:07rasherrasher.dk/rockbox/matrix.c">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/matrix.c and matrixfontgrey-b.h matrixfontgrey-n.h
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15:18:19*rasher leaves it running for a while
15:19:04rasherI have bitmaps for a colour font ready
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15:20:12rasherBasically the whole matrix_loop is a horrible mess of loops
15:20:12preglowwhy doesn't the LOGS macro take the plugin api pointer as a parameter rather than assuming its name?
15:20:24preglowLOGF, yers
15:20:26rasherI haven't dared touching it
15:20:34rasherBut I must've done something :-\
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15:20:44preglowassuming something about the namespace is badness
15:20:49rasherYeah
15:20:56rasherThat seems wrong
15:20:58preglowthat's not related, just wondering
15:21:09preglowrasher: you did a pretty straight port that locked up as well, yes?
15:21:13preglowsounds like a strange bug
15:21:25rasherYeah, I haven't touched the loop since that
15:21:32rasherso it doesn't surprise me
15:21:37rasherI'll try again, maybe
15:23:06rasherI'm thinking I might've confused some rand functions
15:23:22rasherBecause I had to change all those of course
15:23:50rasherokay, I'll try to redo the matrix_loop
15:27:34preglowhmm
15:27:40preglowwell, that does indeed differ between rockbox and sim
15:27:58rasherSo I'm not going mad
15:28:04rasherDid you make it work for the sim?
15:28:07preglownah
15:28:12rasherwhat then?
15:28:20preglownothing, just had a look at the source
15:28:33*rasher is confused
15:28:35rasherHow?
15:28:45*preglow is confused too
15:28:56preglowi just had a look at your source code, that's all i've done
15:29:17rasherHow can you tell it differs between rockbox and sim then?
15:29:58 Quit Zagor ("Client exiting")
15:31:52preglowyou said so
15:35:14preglowbut i've gotta go
15:35:39rasherstill the same :-\
15:35:43rasheroh, maybe not!
15:35:53rasherno!
15:35:55rasherhurray!
15:36:04preglowcommit!
15:36:06*HCl bites freenode
15:36:16rasherI need to see what I did wrong now
15:39:11rasherThis is not making any sense.
15:39:25rasherThe only diff between the version I uploaded and the version that is now working is in commented code
15:39:47HClgotta love computers
15:40:11rasherAh, no
15:40:25rasherI think I had a stray }
15:40:30rashernot sure how that works out
15:40:42rasherOh, not that either
15:43:55*rasher taps his fingers
15:44:01rasherNow it's not showing *anything*
15:44:50rasherThe algorithm seems pretty moody
15:44:53preglowpure luck
15:45:00preglowsure there's not any seeding magic around?
15:45:20rasherCan't see what/how that should work
15:45:27rasherI seed once at the beginning
15:45:30preglowwith?
15:45:39rasher*rb->current_tick
15:45:45preglowi see, yes
15:45:54preglowtry not seeding it
15:46:05preglowif you get consistent results then, you know what's wrong
15:47:34rasherIt also displays an unhealthy disposition for even-numbered lines :-\
15:48:14rasherI don't.
15:48:31rasherMaybe I should try seeding with 42
15:49:06rasherat least, the seed seems to be kept throughout the lifetime of rockbox
15:49:53preglowhmm, rockbox uses a mersenne twister
15:49:58preglowthat should be more than adequate
15:50:25rasherI'm currently blaming the algorithm somehow
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15:53:11preglowgotta go
15:53:20rasherBye
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16:01:52 Part LinusN
16:05:41Vladomandoes the PC-simulator for rockbox support MP3 sound output?
16:05:57rasherWhich one?
16:07:52VladomanArchos?
16:08:29VladomanI mean for the JB/JBR - is it a different simulator?
16:08:34rasherI mean, X11 or Win32?
16:08:40VladomanX11 of course :-)
16:08:43amiconnThe simulator core is the same.
16:09:00Vladomanso, does it have mp3 out?
16:09:02rasherIsn't the sound output different though?
16:09:04amiconnStandard builds do sound output for swcodec platforms only (i.e. iriver)
16:09:23Vladomanso, nobody added MAD as a SW-MAS?
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16:09:37amiconnAfaik there is a hack to enable sound output for archos x11 sims, but I don't know how to enable it
16:10:09amiconn..or whether it still works at all. There were many changes done to the simulator code
16:10:58VladomanOK, I'll try to get the sim running first
16:11:18VladomanI hope it has a good "installer" :-)
16:13:46amiconnIt seems that Dave Chapman added the x11 archos simulator sound output...
16:13:49rasheramiconn: Any objections to setting the iriver cpu to 11mhz while in the FM screen?
16:13:59amiconnyes
16:14:04rasherWhat?
16:14:07amiconnRecording
16:14:24linuxstbamiconn: Yes, that was me many many years ago. It stopped working soon after I added it I think.
16:14:28rasherOf course
16:14:56rashershouldn't be done while recording
16:15:07rasherI'm guessing this is quite easily tested for though?
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16:15:58amiconnOn archos, entering the recording screen switches to recording mode
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16:16:21amiconn...and if you have prerecording enabled, it does record to ram continuously
16:16:23TiMiDhi
16:16:32TiMiDjust a question
16:16:55TiMiDhow bad is it to use malloc in the rockbox code ? (I heard bad things about this)
16:17:08amiconnIt's simply not possible
16:17:11amiconn(in the core)
16:17:21TiMiDok
16:17:30TiMiDI saw a function 'buffer_alloc'
16:17:35linuxstbI think the codecs are the only place there are mallocs - but only because it is so much work to get rid of them.
16:18:04TiMiDcan the memory allocated be freed or is it wasted until next reboot ?
16:18:06amiconnTiMiD: That's a one-time alloc, and it can only be used at boot, before playback gets initialised
16:18:13TiMiDok :(
16:18:21TiMiDbad :(
16:18:27amiconnWhy?
16:18:49TiMiDI wanted to try to implement a list widget
16:19:05TiMiDwith scrollbar and so on that could be displayed on both displays
16:19:27TiMiDbut I don't see how to allocate my item list
16:19:37rasherAnother question about radio - why only 32 presets? Lots of places seem to have more
16:19:51TiMiD(since it can vary depending on what you want to put in the list)
16:20:35linuxstbTiMiD: The code that uses your list widget would allocate the memory statically.
16:20:54linuxstbe.g. like the menus currently.
16:21:11amiconnThat's one of the embedded programming challenges - resources are limited, you can't simply waste them as you would do on a PC
16:21:18TiMiDyes, but if for example I want to put a dir content in it
16:21:25TiMiDdir content can change
16:21:45TiMiD(and will change when you go to other dirs)
16:22:18linuxstbI'm guessing you would need to use the "maximum files in a directory" setting to allocate the memory in advance.
16:22:28amiconnThe dir browser does that today
16:23:03amiconn..and certainly we don't want to buffer the contents for each display separately
16:23:07TiMiDyes it allocates the memory at the beginning : tc.dircache = buffer_alloc(tc.dircache_size);
16:23:11amiconnThat would be a waste
16:23:35TiMiDfor that the two display widgets could share the same list
16:23:58linuxstbMaybe you could use some kind of callback function in your widget to get the text to display for an item.
16:24:18linuxstbI've used widgets like that in the past.
16:25:02TiMiDthe api I thought was more like you would have to add each item with an add_item function
16:25:33linuxstbThe alternative is just to set the number of items in the list, and provide a callback function that generates the text to display
16:25:39TiMiDso the calling program give the text
16:25:57TiMiDyes
16:26:07TiMiDthat's a solution :)
16:27:32TiMiD~kb of memory is not that much and it will be more easy to use for the programmer
16:27:37TiMiDbut I think I will allocate a big buffer (global_settings.max_files_in_dir size) beacause
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16:27:54TiMiDoops my message got inverted
16:28:58linuxstbDon't forget that Rockbox still runs on players with very limited RAM.
16:29:15TiMiDbtw, is this really usefull to be able to handle such a huge amount of files in one dir ?
16:29:53TiMiD(I mean with 9999files in a dir it would take a while if you want something in the middle of the list :) )
16:29:57linuxstbThat's why is a setting. "normal" people will set it low, mad people with 1000s of files in one directory will set it high.
16:30:39VladomanOK, got the simulator running - but no sound for a JBR :-(
16:30:50TiMiDwell you think a callback would be better ?
16:31:05linuxstbI do. But I would be interested to hear other people's views.
16:31:20TiMiD(in fact, if I have 2 ptr for an item with 9999items it's around 80kb)
16:31:37TiMiDit's a large amount for players with 2mb
16:33:02TiMiDI will go for callback (more complicated :-( )
16:33:48TiMiDmaybe a little slower too
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16:53:25amiconnrasher: You had a question concerning my last commit?
16:53:59rasheramiconn: I just didn't understand the commit message?
16:54:06rasherAs in, what does it do/fix/change
16:54:22amiconnIt fixes the behaviour of the recording trigger mode setting
16:54:38amiconnThere are 3 modes: Off, Once and Repeat
16:55:22amiconnCycling forward through the modes (with RIGHT) worked correctly, disabling the trigger display when Off, enabling the display for the 2 other modes
16:55:37amiconnCycling backward didn't work correctly
16:55:41rashernice
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18:58:18t0massilence day here today?
18:58:31*t0mas breaks the silence:
18:58:32*t0mas is listening to 1. Cruisebox - On A Podcast (clean version)
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19:01:27rasherPretty sileng
19:01:30rashersilent
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19:04:25webguest63wiki spam for someone to delete: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SeoCoolhuoquom
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19:05:26*rasher doesn't know how to deal with this sort of crap
19:05:31rasherMaybe I can't
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19:26:48 Nick Mxm`Pas`Bien is now known as Maxime` (n=flemmard@fbx.flemmard.net)
19:38:57Rickgeeze, apple sure pulled off a stinker with the nano
19:42:14 Join zeekoe [0] (n=zeekoe@wekkerradio.kabel.utwente.nl)
19:45:10rasherRick: the scratch thing?
19:46:49Rickyeah
19:47:23rasherThat does sound quite bad
19:47:47Rickhttp://gedankenberg.de/nano/8.JPG <- owwie.
19:49:44zeoo, abrasion holograms
19:54:33dpassen1i know the appeal is its size, but i'm sure they're will be an iSkin before long
19:56:05 Nick ender1 is now known as ender` (i=ychat@84.52.165.220)
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20:04:56dpassen1m
20:15:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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20:56:10*rasher wakes up linuxstb_
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21:35:51 Nick TiMiD[onTheRoadA is now known as TiMiD[CrappyWifi (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net)
21:36:18TiMiD[CrappyWifiI've got a problem
21:36:33TiMiD[CrappyWifiI switched from my desktop computer to my laptop
21:36:42TiMiD[CrappyWifiand now I can't build the simulator
21:36:47TiMiD[CrappyWifithe error is
21:36:48TiMiD[CrappyWifiLD rockboxui
21:36:48TiMiD[CrappyWifi/usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.4/../../../../i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: errno: TLS definition in /lib/libc.so.6 section .tbss mismatches non-TLS reference in /mnt/obelix/rockbox/rockbox-devel/build/librockbox.a(errno.o)
21:36:52TiMiD[CrappyWifi/lib/libc.so.6: could not read symbols: Bad value
21:36:55TiMiD[CrappyWificollect2: ld returned 1 exit status
21:37:21TiMiD[CrappyWifianybody knows how to deal with this ?
21:37:54TiMiD[CrappyWifiI found a guy on google who had the same problem : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=326876
21:38:02TiMiD[CrappyWifibut that's all :(
21:39:55rasherwhich distro?
21:40:29TiMiD[CrappyWifigentoo
21:40:31TiMiD[CrappyWifi:)
21:41:06TiMiD[CrappyWifiI can recompile the glibc with linuxthreads-tls
21:41:19rasherI refuse to comment further on the grounds that I may make an ass of myself
21:41:20TiMiD[CrappyWifi(I'm using nptl)
21:41:51rasherBut I really have no idea
21:42:03rasheris this a clean build?
21:42:03TiMiD[CrappyWifinp :)
21:42:17TiMiD[CrappyWifiwhat do you mean by "clean" ?
21:42:21TiMiD[CrappyWifi:p
21:42:27rasherThat you did make clean
21:42:35TiMiD[CrappyWifisure ;)
21:42:35rasheror started with an empty dir
21:42:42solexxd
21:42:42TiMiD[CrappyWifiit's a fresh cvs
21:42:42rasherFigured
21:42:46 Nick jborn_ is now known as JoeBorn (n=jborn@dsl017-022-247.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
21:42:50rasherWell, I don't know.
21:43:07TiMiD[CrappyWifineither do I
21:50:47LearAny funny options in that global GCC flags variable (forgot what it is called...)?
21:51:12dpassen1what GCC version
21:51:45 Join Bagder [0] (n=daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se)
21:52:21rasherEvening Bagder, some wikispam for you to see to: SeoCoolhuoquom
21:52:32Bagderwoo, what fun! ;-)
21:53:18rasherOn another, lighter note: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/DSC00368.JPG
21:53:42LearAnyway, seems like the glibc is compiled with a different -ftls-model...
21:54:07Bagderrasher: now _that_ is fun ;-)
21:54:31rasherYep. He still can't change the update-region though, so he's stuck inside the region the Apple logo is drawn in
21:54:42rasherBut he has 16-bit colour
21:54:56Bagderfrigging cool
21:55:16LearCan't seem to load that link here...
21:55:34LearFinally...
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22:01:26 Join LinusN [0] (n=linus@labb.contactor.se)
22:01:52LearIs a movem.l of four registers enough to trigger burst mode?
22:02:44LinusNshould be, methinks
22:03:43 Join linuxstb_ [0] (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net)
22:03:57LearGood, then I could try to work around a gcc 4.0.1 "problem" without too much of a performance drop...
22:04:40amiconnLear: A movem.l with (>=) 4 registers will only trigger burst mode if it is line aligned
22:04:56amiconn(start address must be a multiple of 16)
22:06:02LearI don't know if that's really the case, but at least the change wouldn't make things worse in that regard.
22:06:38rasherAre you trying to compile rockbox with gcc4-m68k?
22:06:50 Join Paul_The_Nerd [0] (n=paulthen@cpe-66-68-93-2.austin.res.rr.com)
22:07:12LearYep, 4.0.1 to be exact.
22:07:45rasherHow's it going?
22:08:03LearCurrently stops at an assembler instruction in libmad.
22:08:13Lear(i.e., inline asm)
22:09:33rasherThere's a patch here that fixes some compilation problems in libflac, might apply: http://lists.debian.org/debian-gcc/2005/09/msg00262.html
22:09:36Paul_The_NerdIs the FM Presets page accurate (as in, I have to rename my FM preset file manually as the only one it'll display is the 'default' one?)
22:09:47TiMiD[CrappyWifisry for the lag, the wifi is not stable ... (my irc client is on a distant mashine)
22:09:54TiMiD[CrappyWifiI'm recompiling glibc ...
22:10:46 Quit Bagder (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:12:16amiconnLear: More precisely, the coldfire will use burst mode for every complete 16-byte line.
22:13:35LinusNPaul_The_Nerd: yes
22:14:11rasherThere seem to be some trick involved with getting that to work
22:14:24Paul_The_NerdThanks LinusN.'
22:14:25rasherNo, wait. Stop listening to me if you ever were.
22:15:43***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:15:45 Quit linuxstb (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:17:01TiMiD[CrappyWifiit changes nothing :(
22:17:35TiMiD[CrappyWifiI have no clue now
22:20:56 Part LinusN
22:24:02 Nick linuxstb_ is now known as linuxstb (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net)
22:36:18LearHm... playback.c:audio_track_load calculates a (local) playlist_index, but doesn't use it in any way...
23:00
23:09:30 Nick TiMiD[CrappyWifi is now known as TiMiD[demotivati (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net)
23:15:34 Quit Lear ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.4/undefined]")
23:18:39 Nick TiMiD[demotivati is now known as TiMiD[despair] (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net)
23:25:56 Join _aLF [0] (n=Alexandr@mut38-2-82-67-66-128.fbx.proxad.net)
23:27:12preglowahh
23:27:22preglowthe register allocater chokes on my routine
23:27:26preglowlear: if you're reading this, good luck
23:29:27preglowyou'll pretty much need to rewrite the entire function in asm to keep the same performance level
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23:46:14 Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:53:21preglowoh well, time for bed
23:53:22 Quit preglow ("leaving")

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