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#rockbox log for 2005-10-22

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05:57:34RayKhello, anyone home?
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05:58:08ashridahvaguely
05:58:24RayKhi
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05:58:58RayKI have a question to ask, about bookmarking on the Iriver
05:59:37ashridahhm. not a topic i'm familiar with, i don't use bookmarks, but ask anyway, someone will probably know at some point
06:00
06:00:20RayKwell it seems to randomly work and I can't figure out why...
06:00:39RayKI guess I'll post in the forums but I thought I'd check here first
06:01:06ashridahwell, you may as well describe what you're trying to do that's not working as you expect.
06:02:01RayKnothing fancy, just trying to get it to work... on some mp3 files it will set a bookmark as expected, but for other files it will just sit there when I try to execute the command.
06:02:40RayKand I can't establish what the difference is between the files that work and the files that don't.
06:03:18RayKanyways, thanks.. I will post on the forums and see if anyone else has the same problem.
06:03:50ashridahseems to work okay here, but i didn't do anything approximating a complete test
06:04:20ashridahfeel free to stick around, i'm certainly no expert, one of the other people in here may wake up and have a better answer
06:04:33RayKok, I'll wait for a while. thanks.
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10:20:05linuxstbpreglow: Have you done any work on seeking in AC3? I'm about to implement it now (unless you've done it).
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13:19:57preglowlinuxstb: nope, haven't
13:26:05linuxstbpreglow: I guessed so - I committed it this morning.
13:26:49preglowyes, so i see
13:27:10preglowi'm using my rockbox time for an eq at the moment
13:27:22linuxstbI think I've just found the downmixing bug as well. Just doing some more tests.
13:27:30preglowohh, grand
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13:35:16linuxstb_The bug was the A52_LFE bit being set in the flags that defined the output format. In the case of an input stream with an LFE channel, liba52 was giving us (LFE,left,right) as the output instead of just (left,right). So (LFE,left) was being passed to the DAC....
13:37:22linuxstb_Fix committed.
13:40:20preglowstill don't understand the level parameter to a52_frame?
13:43:54linuxstb_It's described in the liba52.txt file that comes with liba52.
13:44:14preglowyes, but for floats
13:44:29preglowi don't know the scale of the numbers before the level scaler is applied
13:45:12preglowi think a couple of bits more headroom would be good
13:45:33preglowright now it uses 30 out 31 bits (plus sign) or something
13:46:28preglowthink it's time i deleted xxx2wav.* now
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13:46:48linuxstb__(Sorry for the disconnects - my ADSL connection is playing up)
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13:49:51preglowany objections to removing xxx2wav.*?
13:50:42linuxstb__They've already been removed from SOURCES, so no.
13:50:50linuxstb__They'll always be in CVS.
13:50:59preglowyeah
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13:52:19linuxstb__Do you understand why level is set to (1<<26) in a52.c ? Shouldn't it be a higher number?
13:52:35linuxstb__i.e. 1<<29
13:52:35preglowhmm, no
13:52:48preglowit think that scaler is some kind of post scale
13:52:59preglowthe audio is first decoded in some kind of native format
13:53:02preglowwhich seems to be quite low res
13:53:06preglowthen they're scaled
13:53:10preglowbut i'm not certain
13:53:18preglowperhaps it only decides how many frac bits to use
13:53:46preglowthe latter is the more probable, unless the liba52 coders are braindead
13:54:00linuxstb__My understanding from liba52.txt is that liba52 gives us numbers in the range -level to +level
13:54:43preglowwell, that it clearly doesn't
13:58:40linuxstb__why is that clear?
13:59:45preglowbecause we use currently indicate to the dsp our output is thirty bits, and a52 is full scale on the peak meter
13:59:52preglows/use//
14:00
14:00:49preglowif the output would be -level to level, then we would be far from full scale
14:02:32linuxstb__My ac3 files are not full scale.
14:02:39preglowi've got one that is
14:02:54preglownamely come to daddy by aphex twin
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14:04:17muesli-high
14:05:08preglowlinuxstb__: it even clips in one spot
14:05:31preglowi don't know what qualifies as a clip with the peak meter, though, possibly just seeing a full scale sample
14:06:00preglowac3 seeking works as a charm
14:06:06amiconnClip is indicated when 2 consecutive sample periods show full scale
14:06:14linuxstb__Is the problem that level is a fixed point number. In which case, what does 1<<26 mean?
14:07:14preglowlike i said, i have no idea, i need to have a look at the liba52 code to know
14:07:27preglowit might be a dumb scaler, it might be a factor just directly in decoding
14:07:50amiconnHmpf, the debian 'testing' net installer doesn't werk :(
14:08:59linuxstb__amiconn: What's the problem?
14:09:04preglow#define LEVEL(x) (level_t)((x) * (1 << 26))
14:09:13preglowthe number is a tleast used in liba52 some other place
14:09:22amiconnlinuxstb__: Something about initrd
14:10:44linuxstb__I did a Debian installation about a week ago, but I forget which net installer I used. I think it was the official 3.1 version. I then upgraded to "unstable" afterwards.
14:11:17amiconnHow can I do an upgrade to a different distribution??
14:11:39_FireFly_afaik you can't
14:11:50preglowyes you can
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14:12:02preglowjust change sources.list and do a apt-get update, upgrade
14:12:11linuxstb__I just edited the sources in /etc/apt/sources.list and did "apt-get dist-upgrade"
14:12:26preglowyes, dist-upgrade is probably clever :)
14:12:47_FireFly_hmm i thought he meant to upgrade to a complete different distri
14:13:09amiconnHmm :( Typical cumbersome linux way of doing things
14:13:18preglowwell, unstable is a different distribution than testing
14:13:27_FireFly_but it is debian
14:13:33amiconn_FireFly_: No I mean debian 'stable' -> 'testing'
14:13:47preglowyou didn't exactly opt for the easiest distro when you decided to use debian
14:15:08amiconnYes, probably. However, the so-called easier distros aren't really easier if something doesn't work right out of the box
14:15:17preglowno, but they usually do
14:15:26preglowat least for me
14:15:30amiconnFor me: not a single time yet
14:15:50preglowwell, then i wouldn't have any high hopes for debian
14:16:07preglowsince it's pretty much got to be a hardware issue
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14:16:34linuxstb__amiconn: Is there anything unusual (or very new) about your computer?
14:17:10amiconnI had issues on different computers with numerous versions of SuSE
14:17:38amiconnThe only thing that worked okay so far was debian stable on VMware 4.x, but only with kernel 2.4.x
14:17:46amiconnKernel 2.6.x had timing problems
14:17:58_FireFly_SuSE has sometimes havily patched versions of the programms
14:17:59preglowseems i need to use 64 bit division in the eq coef calc :/
14:18:01amiconnNow I have VMware 5.x, and want to try debian with kernel 2.6 again
14:18:11preglowamiconn: haven't got any quick algos for that, do you? :)
14:18:15amiconnI wanted to start with testing this time, because it's more current
14:18:52amiconnThe installer doesn't like me, so I'll try with the stable installer and kernel 2.6 next
14:19:05preglowdid you try ubuntu yet?
14:19:09linuxstb__I've never had any problems with "unstable". Stable and testing always seem to be too old for most things.
14:19:31_FireFly_yepp
14:19:35amiconnI'll try an upgrade to testing afterwards
14:19:50preglowif you get stable isntalled, the upgrade should be no problem at all
14:19:59amiconnpreglow: (div64) No, sorry
14:20:15preglowamiconn: did you tell the gcc people about your faster mul routine, btw?
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15:18:36muesli-XavierGr ?
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16:26:15XavierGrmuesli-: yes?
16:26:56muesli-is "trans" a greek preposition?
16:27:39XavierGrI don't think so...
16:28:16muesli-ok
16:28:47XavierGrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans
16:34:34muesli-cheers m8 ;)
16:34:53muesli-i was looking on wikipedia.de but didnt found anything..
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18:21:21preglowanyone familiar with the fixed point rules for division?
18:21:51preglowi thought the number of frac bits in a/b was the number of frac bits in a minus the number of frac bits in b
18:21:56preglowbut i'm always one bit off...
18:23:44linuxstb_Can't help you with that. But I've been playing with the ffmpeg FLAC decoder, and on my x86 PC, the ffmpeg decoder is slightly slower than libFLAC (in a very unscientific comparison - 1.4 secs for libFLAC compared to 1.7 secs for ffmpeg).
18:24:03preglowbut it works fine?
18:24:48linuxstb_Yes - the output has matching md5 checksums :)
18:25:20linuxstb_I'm at the stage of having a standalone "ffmpeg-flac" decoder program working.
18:25:33preglowARGH
18:25:36preglowi am such a fool
18:25:45linuxstb_I want to clean it up first (remove all unused code) and then I'll port it to Rockbox.
18:26:07preglowwell, it definitely sounds good
18:26:40preglowwhat differences are there primarily? fewer mallocs? less obuscated code?
18:26:46linuxstb_No mallocs :)
18:26:50pregloww00t
18:26:56preglowhow about size of structs?
18:26:59pregloware they big?
18:27:07 Quit RiverFish ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
18:27:41linuxstb_No, there's no real structs either. A FLAC frame is completely self-contained.
18:29:12linuxstb_The main flac.c file is 840 lines. The biggest part of the code is the general-purpose ffmpeg bit-reading routines
18:29:20amiconnHmpf. I forgot the name of the tool to configure the x server (not xf86config, another one) :(
18:29:35preglowgod, it hurts when i'm this big an idiot
18:29:55linuxstb_amiconn: There's xdebconfigurator
18:30:51amiconnThat wasn't the one.. and it's not present in my installation either
18:31:28linuxstb_"apt-get install xdebconfigurator" - but there could be a better alternative. X is always the troublesome part of a Linux installation.
18:32:22amiconnI know there is a tool, present in most distros, I just don't remember the name :(
18:32:58linuxstb_I remember there being something like XF86Setup - but that doesn't seem to be in my Debian.
18:33:08preglowi don't think that's been in for a while
18:33:15preglowi remember using it once, but haven seen it for a long time
18:33:24preglowbut does debian still use xfree86?
18:33:35amiconnThis is 'stable' ...
18:33:57preglowthen i suggest you upgrade to something not completely archaic first :)
18:34:12amiconnI'd rather like to get it running properly first
18:35:28preglowwell, if you're upgrading to something else, you'll be running xorg, i think
18:35:31preglowso not much point
18:35:37preglowbut then again, i'm not the master of debian
18:36:10amiconnThe problem is that the x server doesn't start because of a fatal error "No screen found"
18:36:45TiMiD[despair]hmm
18:36:46amiconnI know this happened back then with vmware 4.x, and has to do with the fact that vmware doesn't support all display depths
18:37:00merbananlinuxstb_: so when will you port the wma decoder ? :)
18:37:03amiconnIt was simple to correct, with the right tool...
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18:37:11TiMiD[despair]did you tried vesa mode ?
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18:38:06merbananpreglow: do you still need some info about fixedpoint arithmetics ?
18:38:09TiMiD[despair]also the tool you are looking for may be xorgconfig
18:38:19TiMiD[despair]if you are using xorg
18:39:09linuxstb_My complete ffmpeg FLAC decoder is 13716 bytes (as a stripped x86 executable). flac.codec is 137184 bytes...
18:39:48amiconnTiMiD[despair]: This isn't xorg −− debian stable
18:39:56TiMiD[despair]...
18:39:59linuxstb_merbanan: No plans for that:)
18:40:35TiMiD[despair]try to edit /etc/X11/xf86config by hand the
18:40:37TiMiD[despair]then
18:42:12preglowmerbanan: no
18:42:18preglowmerbanan: it was just me being a fool
18:42:47merbananlinuxstb_: anyway I started to make a fixed point mdct based on KISS fft, but I never got it to accept arbitary Qm.n notation
18:42:52preglowlinuxstb_: codec files include bss, that bloats a lot
18:43:24preglowlinuxstb_: but there can be no doubt that the ffmpeg decoder is more compact
18:50:39CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
18:50:39*amiconn finally managed to start the X server
18:51:06linuxstb_amiconn: 640x480? Or is it working properly?
18:51:27amiconn1024x768, 24 bit
18:53:08ender`amiconn: did you try X -configure ? that wrote a working conf for me automatically
18:53:24amiconnStill not 100% what I want - integration of VMware tools and its optimised video driver etc - and the dist-upgrade to testing
18:54:02amiconnI guess doing the dist-upgrade first is the better way..
18:57:35preglowwoot, eq is drawing closer
18:58:10preglowand i'm a step closer to full fixed point mastery
19:00
19:02:19amiconnHmm, so I simply overwrite the package sources with 'testing' and then do a dist-upgrade?
19:03:16linuxstb_vi /etc/apt/sources.list ; apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade
19:03:54linuxstb_(and then wait whilst almost all packages are upgraded)
19:04:37linuxstb_But unless you know a good reason not to, I would suggest going straight to "unstable".
19:05:24amiconnI prefer doing this with Synaptic...
19:05:57preglowdo so
19:06:03preglowbut the editing you need to do with an editor
19:06:07preglowthe rest can be done with synaptic
19:06:14preglowsynaptic is actually preferred to apt-get these days
19:06:18amiconnNo, synaptic allows to edit the sources
19:06:23preglowahh, then do so
19:06:48amiconnI already started the process, download will take a while...
19:07:04preglowok, peak filter coef calculation is done, only the shelving filters left then
19:07:19preglowand it seems liba52 already uses a 64 bit / 32 bit divide, so it is available
19:07:38linuxstb_preglow: Is there any advantage to synaptic, apart from ease of use? (I've never used it)
19:09:32 Nick solexx_ is now known as solexx (n=jrschulz@c146133.adsl.hansenet.de)
19:09:44preglowlinuxstb_: people who should know says it's better in all ways now
19:09:48preglowlinuxstb_: more error detection, etc
19:10:05preglowthis eq will be more accurate than floating point
19:11:17solexxpreglow: actually, aptitude is Debian's preferred package mgmt tool nowadays
19:14:52linuxstb_This channel really has turned into #debian...
19:15:12 Join _FireFly_ [0] (n=FireFly@p54A44F46.dip.t-dialin.net)
19:15:41TiMiD[despair]hi _FireFly_
19:16:48TiMiD[despair]linuxstb_: no, there are still some gentoo users remaining ;)
19:18:20preglowsolexx: well, yeah, that's what i said
19:18:27preglowahh, forget me
19:18:28preglowit wasnt
19:18:38preglowturns out i meant aptitude all along
19:18:46preglowlike i said, i don't use debian ;)
19:18:47solexx:-D
19:19:05_FireFly_TiMiD[despair]: hi
19:19:20_FireFly_linuxstb_: yepp :)
19:21:37preglowugh, these shelving filters will be harder
19:21:38TiMiD[despair]I have a question : why are there "DEPRECATED" entries in lang files ? why not to simply remove them ?
19:21:55preglowTiMiD[despair]: they're supposed to be removed for every release of rockbox
19:22:38preglowTiMiD[despair]: in between, they're supposed to be kept so as to not destroy the binary layout of the lang files, i believe
19:23:36TiMiD[despair]since ok
19:23:44TiMiD[despair]argh
19:23:48amiconnIf we want to remove them, the language file version needs to be bumped, rendering all older .lng files unusable
19:23:55TiMiD[despair]s/since//g :)
19:24:08TiMiD[despair]ok
19:24:17amiconnSimply removing them would shift all subsequent IDs, causing biiig confusion ;)
19:24:35TiMiD[despair]I'm curently updating the french lang file ...
19:25:05_FireFly_yepp :) i had it after i had add some additional rentries
19:25:19preglowi need a sqrt() function in fixed point...
19:25:27amiconnA deprecated string uses one byte in the file (\0), and 5 bytes in memory (the \0 and the pointer)
19:28:26TiMiD[despair]preglow: maybe a dichotomic algorythm
19:28:58preglowcan't one do a sqrt approximation via newton-rhapson?
19:29:29_FireFly_preglow: maybe this helps you: http://www.xs4all.nl/~itsme/projects/math/fixedpoint.html
19:29:50_FireFly_this uses newton-rapson
19:30:00preglowyup, so it seems
19:30:02preglowthink i'll try that
19:30:04linuxstb_preglow: Sounds like you're laying the groundwork for a wma decoder...
19:30:15preglowi might
19:30:23preglowbut who will do the actual port? :)
19:30:31preglowi'm mad, but not that mad
19:31:49preglowi wonder how we'll handle the eq gui
19:32:07_FireFly_preglow: there is a fixpoint math lib: http://fpm.berlios.de/website/docs/HTML-single/en/#sqrt-ln-exp-and-pow
19:32:47preglow_FireFly_: thanks
19:33:59_FireFly_np it was only a short web-search ;)
19:37:07preglowi'll just code a slow sqrt for internal use now
19:37:24preglowand we'll see about a fixed point lib in rockbox some other time
19:52:02TiMiD[despair]should I do a patch for an updated lang file or should I leave it as a file ?
19:52:40preglowpatch is probably always preferred
19:52:55preglowit's easier to review changes before commiting that way
19:53:01TiMiD[despair]ok
19:56:12TiMiD[despair]heavy procedure :(
19:56:23_FireFly_why ??
19:57:34TiMiD[despair]you must always have an unmodified source tree to make your patch
19:57:45_FireFly_ah this :)
19:57:49Bagderuse cvs
19:57:59TiMiD[despair]then upload it to tracker
19:58:43TiMiD[despair]and in my case the modified surce tre also contained remote patch :)
19:59:03_FireFly_yepp that is a problem
19:59:12_FireFly_;)
19:59:22Bagderif you'd use cvs it would be no problem
19:59:31Bagderit would only be a matter of 'cvs diff file'
19:59:53_FireFly_you are right Bagder
20:00
20:00:33TiMiD[despair]true :)
20:00:40preglowyou don't use cvs?
20:01:11TiMiD[despair]no since for my remote patch it's also aheavy procedure (cvs add all new files :/)
20:01:16XavierGrhow can I undo any changes made by me into the cvs
20:01:42BagderXavierGr: I usually do 'cvs diff file | patch -p0 -R'
20:02:31XavierGrhmm so every change I made (changing, deleteing files, any sort of modification) can be undone by diffing from the cvs and then remove the pathc?
20:03:06Bagderno
20:03:22Bagderthat way doesn't revert everthing you can do
20:03:34XavierGrthen?
20:03:56Bagderafaik, there is no 100% single revert command
20:04:23TiMiD[despair]is it really needed to upload a lang update to the tracker ?
20:06:32Bagderit depends on what you want
20:06:55TiMiD[despair]?
20:07:37TiMiD[despair]I want it applied of course :)
20:07:51Bagderyes, and how would that happen if you don't upload the patch?
20:08:21TiMiD[despair]maybe some kind dev could quick look at it and update directly
20:08:24TiMiD[despair]:p
20:08:45XavierGryeah thats good indeed!
20:09:11XavierGrpathces must wait, very very patiently before even to be checked...
20:09:19 Nick TiMiD[despair] is now known as TiMiD (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net)
20:10:02TiMiDsince it's only some spelling errors correction and some messages translation added
20:12:57TiMiDuploaded
20:13:04TiMiD-_-
20:13:12_FireFly_:)
20:13:31XavierGrpatching commit proccess is very slow in this current state. Many patches wait for checking and the only developer that really is in mood to check them is Linus, but his time is way limited to check all these patches. *sigh*
20:14:39TiMiDthen I wonder when the languages patchs are commited ^^
20:15:16XavierGrLast time, translators got emailed to update the language files due to the upcoming release.
20:15:29TiMiD(unless there are french devs here
20:15:48XavierGrand the lang files are not checked too much because what can a native English speaker check for Greek language?
20:16:05TiMiDhehe ^^
20:16:26TiMiDyou did the translation ?
20:16:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:17:43XavierGrThe last one yes, and that I am thinking it it has some errors with stressed letters at the start of each word.
20:19:34TiMiDfont problems ?
20:20:30TiMiDoops when I try greekit gives me very strange things ^^
20:20:31XavierGryes, while it showed right on my PC on rockbox the first stresed (if stresed) letter is weird
20:20:48TiMiD:p
20:20:51XavierGryes you need a special iso font to render correctly
20:20:58TiMiDunicode fonts may be the solution :)
20:21:00XavierGriso - 7 or 8 i think
20:21:45TiMiD7 works
20:22:01XavierGryou need to select the iso-7 font from rockbox to see the greek language rendered correctly
20:22:09XavierGryeah
20:22:33TiMiDremembers me the old high school time when I was studying antic-greek ^^
20:22:58XavierGrAh the bug I am refering is when an a is stressed.
20:23:07XavierGra Capital A
20:23:26TiMiDstation is "Statmos" ?
20:23:54XavierGryes or probably Stathmos
20:25:42TiMiDI must say that I'm lost in the menus
20:25:50TiMiDI cant find language :)
20:26:10XavierGrI can help you with that!
20:26:17TiMiD"Logos" as far as I remember, but that was 2000 yeasr before !
20:27:04TiMiDfound it !
20:27:08XavierGrLogos has many meanings it stands for Speech or you can use it for Logic (logiki)
20:27:09TiMiD"Rloassa"
20:27:28TiMiDha so it's stil used :)
20:27:31XavierGrGlossa stands for language
20:27:55TiMiDG not R yep :)
20:28:06XavierGrof course many ancient words are used in Neo-greek language
20:28:19XavierGrGlossa also stands for Tongue
20:28:57TiMiDthe only greek font is huge
20:29:04TiMiDore are there any others ?
20:29:26XavierGrnot that I know off but someone can make his own if he finds other fonts
20:29:55TiMiDyou use this one ?
20:30:37XavierGrWell I don't like to use the Greek Language file in Rockbox, I can't really get used to the terminology used.
20:31:07TiMiDsame for the french
20:31:21XavierGrUnfortunately while greek language is very good on other science terminology (physics, chemistry, e.t.c) in computer science it isn't very good.
20:31:40TiMiDin that case just use the english word
20:31:50XavierGrThat's why I use English version of Windows XP
20:31:55TiMiDthe one taht everyone uses
20:32:01TiMiDmm
20:32:35XavierGrThere are good translations of Windows in Greek but I prefer the English version.
20:32:45TiMiDdoes the greek words used for computer sounds that bad ?
20:32:50XavierGrBecause I get the meaning more easily when an error pops up.
20:33:06TiMiDand tou can google it more easily too :)
20:33:20TiMiDs/tou/you/
20:33:23XavierGrThat because I am learning things from forums or books that use the english language.
20:34:08XavierGrwell there are many words to use, but yes when you pronounce and relate them to the meaning it sounds to me a little wierd.
20:35:18TiMiDsame here, the words are not used, only in official documents
20:35:50XavierGrif you know what "buffer" is and you have never listen to it on another language it is a little weird to understand it in another language.
20:35:54TiMiDI think the translations in rb should use the english term when it's more natural
20:36:03XavierGrSome times exact translation will get you nowhere.
20:36:36XavierGrYes this happens many times in current translation too.
20:38:18XavierGrtruth is that I am not the best translator for rockbox, it would be better to consult someone else for this kind of work.
20:39:41XavierGrThere are so many words in Greek dictionary that sometimes you are suprised when you hear some words, while you understand them (due to the meaning or the logic behind the letters and the word) you are wondering: Is this word really exists?
20:40:19TiMiDjust use natural words !
20:41:04TiMiDnot complicated ones, if tou don't understand their meanings, 99% of the other greek people won't understand too :)
20:42:09XavierGrIt has nothing to do with understanding but rather a "laconical" way to describe it (the shortest but accurate way)
20:43:00XavierGrRemember that some words were created from the computer science in English so to find an alternative in another language is not so easy.
20:43:43TiMiDalso english grammar makes sentences shorter
20:43:55_FireFly_mostly
20:43:56TiMiD(at least compared to french)
20:44:07_FireFly_yepp and german ;)
20:44:12XavierGrIt will be easy to describe it with many words but it is difficult to find an exact word that matches the meaning without confusion, that's why a translator must know exactly the subject and the language to its full pottentila
20:44:20XavierGr^potential
20:44:50TiMiDthat's why other transltions doesn't feet on the screen :)
20:44:52XavierGrWell this is not always the case for Greek language but this is true for the translation of Rockbox.
20:45:03XavierGrIndeed.
20:46:07XavierGrBut I think that English language has many flaws by itself, while easy to learn it has many weaknesses when it comes to detailing.
20:46:46XavierGrI can't comment on other languages because I know very little about them.
20:46:54TiMiDdetailing ?
20:48:14XavierGrWell it would be difficult to describe it but even the lack of EXACT pronounciation rules is sometimes confusing...
20:48:41TiMiDthat's the problem of our alphabets
20:49:01XavierGrwhen you encounter an unknown word in Greek there is no way to pronounce it wrong if it is written correctly.
20:49:15XavierGrBut in English you must guess it.
20:49:27TiMiDyep
20:49:36XavierGrI've heard though that this is not the case with French
20:49:42TiMiDoh
20:49:44TiMiDit is
20:49:51XavierGrI think that you have more pronouncing rules
20:49:56TiMiDand more than english :)
20:50:01TiMiDwe have a lot
20:50:16TiMiDwell
20:50:21XavierGrthe lack of stressing in English is also confusing at times
20:50:46TiMiDYou can tell the pronouciation of a word exactly but for a stranger it should be very difficult
20:51:13XavierGryes I know that for a stranger is difficult but if there is a known rule then all is okay.
20:51:20XavierGrI know what you mean.
20:51:33XavierGrgateau
20:51:45TiMiDgato :)
20:51:54XavierGrexaclty
20:51:55TiMiD(the pronounciation)
20:52:16TiMiDI wonder why they did this
20:52:24XavierGrwhen I first saw that word I said "gateau" in exact letters.
20:52:32TiMiDwhy not simply write it gato
20:52:33XavierGras long as it is a trend that keeps happening it is good.
20:52:52XavierGrbut in English you can see many wrods contradicting
20:52:59TiMiDalso s that pronouce like z
20:53:26TiMiDour alphabets could be reduced
20:53:54XavierGrIn greek language we have 2 'o' and 3 single 'i' (as sit) with the exact same pronouniation!
20:54:06TiMiDand 2 t no ?
20:54:20XavierGrI was very concerned and annoyed by that, and always said why not use 1 for all?
20:54:21TiMiDtheta and tau
20:54:32XavierGrbut there is a very serious reason for this
20:56:00XavierGrabout the theta and tau: Tau is seen as "T" and pronounced as "T"ake, while Theta is an O with a slash "-" inside the circle and is pronounced as "TH"
20:56:21XavierGrLike Thumb
20:56:22TiMiDok
20:56:28XavierGrSo they are different letters
20:57:00XavierGrBut greeks use so many letters for 'i' to show you the root of a word.
20:57:40TiMiDin french you have lots too
20:57:44TiMiDc and s
20:57:49TiMiDz and s
20:57:57TiMiDq and c and k
20:58:07TiMiDch sh sch ..
20:58:13XavierGralso sometimes the female of an object while spelled the same as the plural the only diffrence is the last 'i' which utilizes a diffrent letter to recognise it
20:58:15TiMiDthat's stupid
20:58:31TiMiDarf
20:58:43XavierGrwell not if there is a rule behind it and shows you something more about the word
20:59:07TiMiDno it doesn't show anything about the word
20:59:16XavierGrYes I agree that it may be confusing but when you see another aspect of the language you will realize its usage.
20:59:22TiMiDjust there to anny students :)
20:59:31TiMiDannoy
20:59:32XavierGrlol
20:59:54TiMiDalso the unpronnounced "e"
21:00
21:00:27TiMiDif only I could make a new alphabet :D
21:00:42TiMiDand a new clean language :p
21:00:43XavierGrhehe
21:00:47TiMiDfrom scratch ^^
21:01:14TiMiDsmth easily understandable by a computer
21:01:49XavierGrIn fact I think that Greek language is very easy to read, though difficult to then understand or write.
21:02:28XavierGrAll letters have an almost single pronounciation and then you just chain each other.
21:03:03TiMiDthe more simple I know is japanese (when they don't use kanjis), each kanna has only one pronunciation
21:03:25XavierGrand how many kannas?
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21:03:59TiMiD40 or smth like that
21:04:17XavierGrhow many are the kanjis?
21:04:25TiMiDwho knows :D
21:04:32TiMiD50000+
21:04:36 Quit WarrenLeyes (Client Quit)
21:04:43XavierGr!!!!!!! are you serious?
21:04:54XavierGrand how do they get to learn the language?
21:05:09TiMiDonly 2000 to read the newspaer
21:05:27XavierGrand the rest?
21:06:00TiMiDto write names
21:06:07TiMiDor specific domains terms
21:06:15TiMiDlike scientific words
21:06:55TiMiDkanjis are conenient because when you see a word you dn't understand you can guess it's meaning
21:06:57XavierGromg
21:07:12TiMiD1 kanji= 1 meaning
21:07:13XavierGrI think I will never be able to learn or write Japanese
21:07:31TiMiDit's not hard at all
21:07:38TiMiDcuriously
21:07:44TiMiDthe most hard are kannas
21:07:58TiMiDthe kanjis have an history behind them
21:08:02XavierGrwhy?
21:08:12TiMiDwhen you remember the story you remember the writing :)
21:08:20XavierGrmy god it is difficult t write them
21:08:25TiMiDand a story is very simple to understand
21:08:30TiMiDnope
21:08:38XavierGrjust see wikipedia what you need to write an 'a'
21:08:44TiMiDthey are composed of "primitives"
21:09:05TiMiDthere are ~100 primitives
21:09:15TiMiDthen you combine them to make a kanji
21:09:38TiMiDyou just have to make a story with the primitives and you are done
21:11:09XavierGryes but see that there is no relation between "ha" "ka" or "ra"
21:11:17TiMiDhttp://members.aol.com/writejapan/hiragana/a.htm
21:11:19XavierGrthey are written differently
21:11:27TiMiDyes
21:11:35TiMiDit's syllabic
21:12:10TiMiDone char = one sound
21:12:11XavierGrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kana
21:12:22XavierGrthe 'a' there is different
21:13:09TiMiDthere are 2 kannas systems :)
21:13:19TiMiDthe pronunciations are the same
21:13:28TiMiDjust the drawing changes
21:13:31XavierGrgreat!
21:14:20TiMiDhttp://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/table.html
21:14:27TiMiDhttp://www.sf.airnet.ne.jp/~ts/japanese/table_k.html
21:14:40XavierGrThe only thing I knwo about Japanes are some words because I watch some anime series and movies.
21:15:10TiMiDone is used to spell japanes words and the other to write foreign words
21:16:11TiMiDwith roman alphabet you have more than that
21:16:22TiMiDyou have 4 alphabets in fact ;)
21:16:43TiMiDgreek only 2
21:17:00XavierGrwhat you mean?
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21:17:27XavierGr4 alphabelts?
21:17:37TiMiDyep
21:17:48TiMiDhand writing and typing
21:17:58TiMiDthen maj/min
21:18:50XavierGrwhat the difference between handwritting and typing?
21:19:18 Quit _user_ (Client Quit)
21:19:21TiMiDthe letters are completely different for most of them
21:19:22_FireFly_maybe the alphabet for typing is reduced
21:19:23XavierGrIt is the same letters it is just that the hand can't reproduce them exactly the ame
21:19:43TiMiDthe shape is different
21:20:03TiMiDI met a japanese girl who olny learned typed chars
21:20:13TiMiDshe was lost when I wrote her an address
21:20:35TiMiDI had to wrote it with capital typed letters :)
21:20:45_FireFly_moep ;)
21:21:07XavierGrAh you say between capital and small writing?
21:21:25TiMiDnop
21:21:37TiMiDhand writing and typed
21:21:51TiMiDthen in both capitals and small letters
21:22:28XavierGrAnd where is 4 ways to a roman alphabet?
21:22:42TiMiDyes
21:22:48TiMiDfor example the A
21:22:52TiMiD4 ways
21:23:25XavierGrI know 2 for greek and 3 for english (capitals and normal)
21:23:47XavierGrthe same for e, E (small)
21:24:14XavierGroh and now it come to me the L,l and the little thingy that loops
21:24:19TiMiDI ry to find you an example
21:25:12XavierGrBut that is just a caligraphy, different ways ti write a letter fast.
21:25:42TiMiDof course
21:26:08XavierGrI got confused for a moment
21:26:22TiMiDthere are only 26 letters (+ some additionnal like accents and so on) in terms of pronunciation
21:27:07XavierGrgreek language has 24 standard letters
21:27:59TiMiDgerman has 27 :)
21:28:09_FireFly_no 26
21:28:12linuxstb_Oops. I hadn't turned on gcc optimisation for the ffmpeg FLAC decoder. It's actually nearly twice as fast as libFLAC on my PC with -O2
21:28:33TiMiDthe etzet ?
21:28:37TiMiDss
21:29:11_FireFly_ok with this and umlauts(oe ue ae) the we have 30
21:29:47XavierGrAlso now that I think of it there is a letter in greek alphabet which is not frequent in English at all.
21:29:58XavierGrGamma
21:30:07TiMiDg :p
21:30:12XavierGrThe pronunciation of it cant be said in english.
21:30:29XavierGrI mean I have never see the pronunciation in english words,
21:30:34XavierGrIt is not G
21:30:49TiMiDhow do you pronounce it ?
21:31:01XavierGrnono forget it I thought fast
21:31:14XavierGrIt is w like "w"ould"
21:31:49TiMiDhttp://timidzone.free.fr/pub/a.png
21:31:51XavierGrso it is more like Wamma instead of Gamma
21:32:17XavierGrAlso I like the way germans say "w"!!
21:32:32TiMiDlke V
21:32:39zeand then they say v like f
21:32:49XavierGr"I vill dstroy you"
21:32:55XavierGrVon Karajan
21:33:37TiMiDI like the way japanese pronounce english XD
21:33:45TiMiDsee >> shii
21:33:47XavierGrindeed.
21:34:17TiMiDlover >> r/aabaa
21:34:37XavierGryou missed the other day one korean guy who wasn;t font of english
21:34:41XavierGr^fond
21:34:44TiMiDoh
21:34:49TiMiDI read this :p
21:34:57TiMiDwebguest
21:35:12XavierGrLMAO no offense if he reads the logs.
21:35:18TiMiD(I read the logs)
21:35:20TiMiDyep
21:35:24_FireFly_it was hard to understand
21:35:38XavierGrImpossible I could say
21:35:45TiMiDasian languages are very different
21:36:03TiMiDit must be very hard for them to learn our languages
21:37:36XavierGr<webguest82> I can't English well <−−- LOL (again no offense)
21:37:54XavierGrI tell England very best!!!!
21:38:20TiMiDroh :)
21:38:30TiMiDit was understandable :p
21:38:52XavierGrwell that sentence was but...
21:42:03XavierGr<webguest82> It cannot but, it will be able to participate to it English? <- This sentence makes no sense to me.
21:44:51TiMiDhmmm :)
21:45:01TiMiDno clue :p
21:45:55XavierGrWell many users complained about the left button on file tree. They were saying that if you are in root and you press left the WPS must be shown. This can be changed very easy with a goto (don't flame me you dont like gotos) but now I see why this is not so good to have!
21:46:16TiMiDha !
21:46:18TiMiDwhy ?
21:46:23XavierGrThough I will say it is interesting and maybe I will keep it as a personal little mod.
21:47:07TiMiD(I can discretely hide it in my remote patch since tree.c was changed a lot :p)
21:47:39TiMiDthen in 2 or 3 month it will maybe be in cvs :)
21:47:59XavierGrWell if you want to return to WPS from tree (lets say you want something to see in the file tree) you will press repeteadly left until you end up in the WPS, though pressing it a lot of times maybe will confuse you and press left while you have entered the wps thus rewinding the current track.
21:48:27TiMiDyes
21:49:13TiMiDto have to press play is not a problem for me but some users want it
21:49:30XavierGrAlso because with the goto I don't check if the user plays a song. Pressing left while in root and music stoped will resume and start to play just like play_button
21:49:55TiMiDthere is a more clever way to do it tha with a goto
21:50:08TiMiDyou have a start_wps var
21:50:33XavierGrWell I don't like to use the play button because the way I catch the unit I must use a different hand
21:50:41XavierGrTiMiD: It is the most discreet change I could make.
21:50:45XavierGr2 lines of code only
21:50:50XavierGrthe label and the goto
21:51:27TiMiDin one line you make lso because with the goto I don't check if the user plays a song. Pressing left while in root and music stoped will resume and start to
21:51:30TiMiD play just like play_button
21:51:33TiMiDssit
21:51:37TiMiDshit
21:51:45TiMiDfck*** touchpad :(
21:51:57TiMiDi was saying
21:52:20TiMiDin one line you make : start_wps=true;
21:52:40XavierGrhmmm does this works?
21:52:47TiMiDyes
21:52:50TiMiD:)
21:52:54TiMiDtested :p
21:53:13XavierGrI will try that, I tried button = TREE_WPS but this wouldnt work for obvious reasons.
21:53:57TiMiDsearch that : if (tc.dirlevel==0)
21:54:10TiMiDunder TREE_EXIT
21:54:29TiMiD /* if we are in /, nothing to do */
21:54:29TiMiD if (tc.dirlevel==0)
21:54:29TiMiD {
21:54:29DBUGEnqueued KICK TiMiD
21:54:29TiMiD start_wps=true;
21:54:29TiMiD break;
21:54:31TiMiD }
21:54:42XavierGrI know where but it is.
21:54:45XavierGrif (!tc.dirlevel)
21:54:45XavierGr break;
21:54:50TiMiD:)
21:54:53TiMiDthen
21:55:01XavierGrthen I will add the '{}" and the sentence
21:55:29TiMiDand you are done
21:55:41TiMiDno more bug when nothing is playing ;)
21:56:28XavierGrthough maybe this is not bad at all, intead of having to resum with play you just push left on the root, though it might be confusing
21:56:54TiMiDboth can co-exist
21:57:48XavierGrif (!tc.dirlevel){
21:57:51XavierGr start_wps=true;
21:57:51XavierGr break;
21:57:51XavierGr }
21:58:03XavierGrI typed this
21:58:08XavierGrthis works but...
21:58:42XavierGrif you press quickly left (and no music is playing, in the root) and then up or down the volume changes instead of the folder thesis
21:59:17XavierGrthough this will not happen if you press this sequence in a normal speed.
21:59:27 Join RotAtoR [0] (n=e@12-208-71-148.client.insightBB.com)
21:59:32XavierGralso this happens to the sim I havn't tested it yet on the target.
21:59:37_FireFly_add audio_status() to the if
22:00
22:00:21_FireFly_then it should only get into wps while playing
22:00:42XavierGryes that's more like it
22:00:47XavierGrjust fiddling aroun
22:01:08TiMiDadd audio_status to the main test of start_wps
22:01:15TiMiDthat's cleaner
22:05:48XavierGrif (!tc.dirlevel){
22:05:51XavierGr if(!audio_status())
22:05:51XavierGr start_wps=true;
22:05:51XavierGr break;
22:05:51DBUGEnqueued KICK XavierGr
22:05:51XavierGr }
22:05:54XavierGrthis has the same error
22:06:10_FireFly_no not !audio_status
22:06:29XavierGrwhat it returns?
22:06:31_FireFly_audio_status() is 0 when playback is stopped
22:06:41TiMiD0 when no song loaded
22:06:56XavierGrahhh
22:07:21XavierGrI though it as audio_playing my bad
22:09:04XavierGryeah now it works.
22:09:32XavierGrWell it is rather interesting to resume with left too. :)
22:10:00TiMiDwhat happens if the song is stopped ?
22:10:10 Join linuxstb__ [0] (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net)
22:10:18XavierGrnothing
22:10:20TiMiDit might not return
22:10:30_FireFly_why ??
22:10:36XavierGrwith the goto it will just resume
22:10:52XavierGrwith the if(audio_status) it will do nothing
22:11:05_FireFly_the if belongs only to start_wps=true
22:11:07linuxstb__preglow, Slasheri : How can I configure the DSP to accept 16-bit integers stored in 32-bit integer arrays (one array per channel)
22:11:07TiMiDbecause audio_status returns 0 when stopped
22:11:12_FireFly_yepp
22:11:34_FireFly_but with no {} the only the next code-line belongs to the if
22:11:38TiMiDbtw, what happens if you are in wps and you pres stop ?
22:11:42XavierGrwhen you press stop in the wps it will throw you out anyway.
22:11:49TiMiDok :)
22:11:54Slasherilinuxstb__: Hmm, currently you can't
22:12:13TiMiDperfect behabiour then :p
22:12:26SlasheriIf you specify 16bits as sample depth, the dsp will assume the samples are on 16-bit integer arrays
22:13:03XavierGrnow left can exit you from anywhere
22:13:31_FireFly_but not from wps ;)
22:13:42Slasherilinuxstb__: You could add a new configuration option to the dsp to specify the array type and real sample depth for the scaler
22:13:56TiMiDtry to move the test to the if that tests start_wps
22:15:12XavierGrwhy test the wps?
22:15:58TiMiDI mean the line if (start_wps) becomes if (start_wps && audio_status() )
22:16:04linuxstb__Slasheri: OK, I'll leave that for now. I just want to test my new FLAC decoder on the target.
22:16:31TiMiDand don't test audio_status in if (!tc.dirlevel) anymore
22:16:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:17:08XavierGrTiMiD: the way it is now:
22:17:15XavierGrf (!tc.dirlevel){
22:17:18XavierGr if(audio_status())
22:17:18XavierGr start_wps=true;
22:17:18XavierGr break;
22:17:18XavierGr }
22:17:45XavierGrthe wps will be always off whe someone is in the tree.
22:18:00TiMiD?
22:18:01XavierGrso why check start_wps
22:18:08TiMiDno
22:18:15TiMiDI didn't said that
22:18:38TiMiDI will find you the line
22:19:08XavierGrline ~749 in tree.c
22:19:20XavierGr745
22:19:23TiMiDlook line 1142
22:19:29TiMiDif (start_wps)
22:19:40TiMiDjust put if (start_wps && audio_status() )
22:20:25TiMiDso that you are not obliged to test it everywhere else in the code when you want to return to wps
22:21:59TiMiDthat the way I would have done it at least
22:22:55XavierGrand then how to modify line745 according to this?
22:23:01XavierGror just simply add it.
22:23:10XavierGrthough just adding this makes no sense
22:23:12_FireFly_remove the audio_state test
22:23:15TiMiDjust remove the test if(audio_status())
22:26:01XavierGrgot it this works too.
22:26:11TiMiD:)
22:26:24 Quit linuxstb_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:27:00XavierGrweird patch it will make.... 2 lines of patch without the headers
22:27:12XavierGroh okay 4 lines
22:27:51TiMiDI have already put it in my 4000 lines patch :)
22:27:53XavierGrthough still I am not sure if I like to resume or not with left?
22:28:04TiMiDthey will never notice ^^
22:28:33Bagderwe will
22:28:40TiMiDshit :p
22:28:40Bagderand we'll chase you with sticks
22:28:49Bagder:-)
22:28:57TiMiDi'm caught
22:28:59XavierGrI don't think it will be commited, I think some don't like this.
22:29:00TiMiD:(
22:29:48TiMiDI awake Bagder :p
22:30:17Bagdernow shurrup so I can go back to sleep ;-P
22:30:58TiMiDshurrup ?
22:31:21Bagder"shut up" in a sloppy speaking kind of way
22:31:31TiMiDno!
22:32:17TiMiDBagder the terror of the channel ^^
22:33:32XavierGrDoes Bagder stands for something?
22:34:00BagderI don't stand for anything! ;-)
22:34:05CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 11 minutes and 22 seconds at the last flood
22:34:05*Bagder grins
22:34:11Bagderseriously, no it doesn't mean anything
22:34:21XavierGrLOL But badger stands for an animal
22:34:29Bagderit is _almost_ the animal, yes
22:34:30TiMiDhe wants to kill those who speak too much
22:35:34XavierGrWell when I first joined the channel I thought it was Badger instaead of Bagder
22:36:00BagderI don't think I need to tell you that you're not alone...
22:36:44XavierGrand whats Bger for?
22:36:48TiMiDuntil now I thougth it was Badger :)
22:37:08XavierGr:p
22:37:38XavierGrand how do you pronounce Bger anyway?
22:37:49SlasheriOh, that's interesting.. I have always read the nick as Badger until now.. :D
22:37:53crwlhehe, me too
22:38:02XavierGrROFLMAO
22:38:08*Bagder laughs
22:38:29Bagderyou are just as dyslexic as I am ;-)
22:40:06XavierGrWell I must be the only one here that I pronounce my nick the wrong way.
22:40:11*amiconn discovered two bugs at once :(
22:40:38_FireFly_amiconn: no software is really bug-free :)
22:41:43amiconnYes, but one of them is rather prominent
22:42:08amiconnOn iriver, voice UI doesn't work at all currently, neither voice menus nor talkbox
22:42:32SlasheriHmm..
22:42:43XavierGrwhats the talkbox?
22:42:50amiconnSecond, the Playlist->Insert function doesn't work as intended from stopped playback
22:42:54amiconn(on iriver)
22:43:29amiconnOn archos, when doing a playlist->Insert from stopped state, the file/dir/etc is added to the playlist and rockbox starts playing
22:44:00_FireFly_hmm for me it works or i misunderstood you
22:44:09amiconnOn iriver, it also seems to add to the playlist, but then doesn't start playback, and even the Play button leads to 'Nothing to resume' :(
22:44:52XavierGrit works fo me.
22:45:03_FireFly_yepp for me too just tested
22:45:29Slasherihmm.. voice seems to work currently only when playing
22:50:22amiconnHmm, the playlist problem was my fault - I had recursive insert turned off on iriver
22:50:30_FireFly_;)
22:53:03amiconnHowever, I discovered another bug instead. When a playlist ends, this state isn't properly stored, so it's still possible to resume. It plays the last few seconds of the last song
23:00
23:05:00Slasheriamiconn: found the voice codec problem, fixing it
23:10:19amiconngoodie :)
23:10:47*amiconn has to repeat the whole debian fiddling :/
23:17:39 Join JoeBorn [0] (n=jborn@dsl017-022-247.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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23:24:32 Nick pabs is now known as ALLCAPSPABLO (n=pabs@xor.pablotron.org)
23:24:32DBUGEnqueued KICK ALLCAPSPABLO
23:25:35 Quit JoeBorn (Nick collision from services.)
23:25:43 Nick JoeBorn-having is now known as JoeBorn (n=jborn@dsl017-022-247.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
23:29:18 Quit DangerousDan ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
23:33:02 Nick ALLCAPSPABLO is now known as pabs (n=pabs@xor.pablotron.org)
23:33:02DBUGEnqueued KICK pabs
23:38:58 Quit _FireFly_ ("Leaving")
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