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#rockbox log for 2007-05-08

00:00:31kurbjunkjhMikeS, the traffic is increase by 4, each write to the sc606 is done on each tick and it takes 4 ticks to do a full update
00:00:51amiconnbluebrother: No, like telling the pcf to draw more than 100mA, but not more than usb allows
00:01:04H10_007quickThe point is that there is infomation on the wiki that new people could use but most new people such as myself have no idea were to find it. The manual is good, but it couldn't hurt to try to gather the information in the wiki into one place.
00:01:04bluebrotherah, ok.
00:01:09kurbjunkyou can do multiple writes to speed it up if you don't care about making the tick tasks take longer
00:01:09amiconnIt's not really made for this, so it needs special measures
00:01:27bluebrotherH10_007quick, can you define what this information is then?
00:01:30amiconnThat's probably why iriver settled for a separate LiIon charger chip rather than using the pcf
00:01:33jhMikeSsince I'm getting up to speed here, what did it do before?
00:01:39bluebrothersounds nasty :(
00:01:41kurbjunkit's written to be a more generic update, so that you can do things like fade the buttonlights with the backlight
00:02:05H10_007quickThats what I want to do, I just want to start a new wiki page and work on it, then if it is no good we can trash it!
00:02:26LloreanH10_007quick: And we're trying to figure out why the manual can't be improved to solve the same problem
00:02:32LloreanTruly "new" users shouldn't be in the wiki
00:02:43LloreanThey should read the manual, use the software, and then not be new users any more.
00:02:52mrkI'm a truly new user <_<
00:02:55kurbjunkthe sc606 registers are dvided into 4 banks, enable, and 3 for the brightness of the leds
00:02:58mrkI've just read the manual
00:03:16 Quit Thundercloud_ (Remote closed the connection)
00:03:17kurbjunkactually you could save a write if you are just fading
00:03:25kurbjunkand not enabling/disabling
00:03:37kurbjunkbut that's still a 3 fold increase
00:03:55kurbjunkor well 2 more writes to do a full update
00:04:10H10_007quickLlorean: Ah, i give up, I may work on the manual
00:04:12amiconnbluebrother: It's indeed nasty, and requires sort of circumventing a safety measure in the pcf
00:04:15 Join juxtap [0] (n=juxtap@vc-196-207-45-253.3g.vodacom.co.za)
00:04:16bluebrotherH10_007quick, do you really need to create a wiki page just to tell what the information is you are talking about?
00:04:23amiconn...and then doing a bit of monitoring in software
00:04:43LloreanH10_007quick: We're just trying to figure out what information this is you're even talking about, you're being very evasive by constantly avoiding just telling us what information it is.
00:05:14bluebrotherif we know what information is missing (according to you) we can decide if it's information that should go to the manual or not
00:05:23bluebrotherand if it should go to the manual we can fix it.
00:05:27H10_007quickok I will start a list and give it to you latter
00:05:37bluebrotherif you just create a wiki page the manual won't change
00:05:42bluebrothergreat.
00:06:37jhMikeSI see it assumes DEFAULT_BRIGHTNESS_SETTING when fading out
00:07:07kurbjunkjhMikeS, the state machines are pretty straight forward though, and you can change them around pretty easily, but the code changes I did were based on the really generic approach to fading. again though I talked with goddhart about it and he felt that the really generic approach made for more flexibiliy, for example you could easily add in some code to pulse the buttonlights with the music or somethign ilke that
00:07:08jhMikeSat least I _think_ I see that
00:07:59amiconnApart from power management, I'd say the X5 and M5 ports are on par with the coldfire irivers, so definitely a release target if we solve the power management stuff before
00:09:03Lloreanamiconn: It'd be nice if someone got dual boot working, but I don't think that's a "release" requirement. But if the radio's still not working as well as the original firmware, I think that's a problem. Not a significant one, but it speaks negatively of us if we "release" with a known problem in the FM support.
00:09:11kurbjunkjhMikeS, it should be fading toward either 0, or the brightness_setting
00:09:12bluebrotherhmm. Is it just me with the ipod rebooting to disk mode sometimes even if Menu is held during connecting?
00:09:26jhMikeSso long as no compromise is made to existing functionality, I agree the flexibility is good
00:09:26pixelmajhMikeS, kurbjunk: the thing that one has to press buttons in settings twice is a general menu problem, I have it on M5 too with a build from before kurbjunk's commit in other settings
00:09:27amiconnAnd regarding dual boot, the archoses never supported *true* dual boot unless flashed
00:09:34bluebrotherisn't the fm the same chip as the h100?
00:10:14 Part Joely
00:10:16 Quit midkay ("Leaving")
00:10:21jhMikeSpixelma: I've never seen it until now though, and the same menu (different name) on the sansa seems to work
00:10:38amiconnI couldn't find any problems with fm support on the X5...
00:10:47pixelmajhMikeS: Nico_P also reported it on his gigabeat
00:11:09kurbjunkjhMikeS, there were some delays in the original fading code as well, I think it took 2 ticks to do a fade update, and now it takes 4, so if you faded by 2 instead of 1 it should be the same
00:11:13jhMikeSpixelma: do you recall where?
00:11:19Lloreanamiconn: My understanding is that reception is poorer, and it's harder to tune in certain stations than the original firmware. Since I only have second-hand reports on that, I'll take any refutation happily.
00:11:26kurbjunksame speed that is
00:11:42amiconnI can't compare to the original firmware as I never used it
00:11:49jhMikeSLlorean: for x5 fm, that's true without code to set the HI/LO injection correctly
00:12:01kurbjunkthe old code had a fade delay value, that it would pause fading every other tick
00:12:14pixelmajhMikeS: in what settings? I've seen it in the sound settings - I'm not sure if that's what you mean
00:12:23amiconnI can only say that reception works and is fairly good, about the same as on the other fm enabled targets I have
00:12:39amiconn(which are the h1x0, the h300 and a (new type) Ondio FM)
00:12:44jhMikeSpixelma: no...only thing I saw there was voice trouble to due setting the pcm low latency
00:12:59kurbjunkpixelma, thanks for letting me know
00:13:01amiconnX5 reception is actually better than on h1x0 imho (better sensitivity)
00:13:37jhMikeSamiconn: I guess these thing are region dependent in a big way...trying to fix it here made it worse for preglow
00:13:48amiconnbluebrother: The fm chip in the X5 is (at first sight) not the same as in the irivers and new type Ondios, but I suspect it actually is
00:13:50pixelmajhMikeS: I still don't get what you are referring too, sorry
00:14:05pixelma*to
00:14:15 Quit juxtap (Remote closed the connection)
00:14:18 Quit Siltaar (Remote closed the connection)
00:14:44jhMikeSpixelma: just that voice would not play out in the sound menu properly while playback was going, other than that I've never seen this exit problem in any menu
00:15:04amiconnIt uses the same commands, and the D&A DA202 is actually called an fm tuner _module_, which is most probably built around the philips TEA5767
00:15:10Nico_PjhMikeS: I have exit problems
00:15:37pixelmajhMikeS: I have no voice file present on my M5 atm - and the bug was introduced today
00:16:26jhMikeSWell, if it this feature was added today then that explains it since it was my first update
00:16:30amiconnLlorean: I wonder how reception could be poorer. Harder tuning I wouldn't notice, as I always use premade .fmr files (from the wiki or self-made)
00:17:00bluebrothercould be region related
00:17:07Lloreanamiconn: Perhaps the person was generalizing. Saying reception was poorer, simply because it was harder to tune.
00:17:20kurbjunkgotta run
00:17:21 Part kurbjunk
00:18:52 Quit Arathis ("Bye, bye")
00:19:06amiconnbah
00:19:13jhMikeSheh, ok, they're all doing it. I never checked other menu after doing svn up...lol
00:19:46amiconnI know that the rework of the existing strings is still pending, but why are new strings which only make sense on a single target added for all targets??
00:20:14amiconn(referring to this: http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/apps/lang/english.lang?r1=13345&r2=13346 )
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00:20:47amiconnButton light timeout makes no sense on targets without button lights....
00:21:28amiconnWaste of binary space :(
00:22:21jhMikeSagreed
00:23:05Nico_Ppixelma: I've solved my menu problem but I suspect it un-solved the problem jdgordon was trying to solve
00:23:36webguest53big gigabeat problem guys
00:23:46H10_007quickLlorean: These are the links that I would put in just for the start. They could also just be rearagned in the doc index and put under one heading called "noobs" or somthing similar
00:23:47H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxFAQ
00:23:49H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ReportingBugs
00:23:51H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/PluginIndex
00:23:52H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsGallery
00:23:54H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox
00:23:55H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/FeatureRequests
00:23:57H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NoDo
00:23:58H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/dl.cgi?bin=fonts
00:24:00H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/VoiceFiles
00:24:01H10_007quickhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/VoiceHowto
00:24:02pixelmastop that
00:24:09*bluebrother points to a pastebin
00:24:16H10_007quickWith information about what they do etc.
00:24:23H10_007quickwhats a pastebin?
00:24:25toffe82webguest53: what problem ?
00:24:27bluebrotherWhyRockbox is linked from the very first start page
00:24:29bluebrotherpastebin.ca
00:24:59bluebrotherPlugins are listed in the manual
00:25:06bluebrotherNoDo is completely outdated
00:25:15pixelmaNico_P: that problem was that menu items didn't scroll (when too long - more noticeable one small screens or big fonts) - that is fixed though...
00:25:39pixelma*on
00:25:41bluebrotherwe have a FlySpray page that is linked at the top of FS
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00:25:55Nico_Ppixelma: I think the fix for my problem is basically to revert the fix for the scrolling problem
00:25:56bluebrotherso anyone looking at FS should see it
00:25:56*jhMikeS wonders why brightess 0 != off
00:25:57webguest53im using the latest build, it boots but can't play songs.. a flashing message "codec failure" keeps popping up
00:26:06bluebrotherthe fonts are linked in the manual
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00:26:16jhMikeSwebguest53: I think you need a full update
00:26:28Nico_Ppixelma: I'll experiment in the sim
00:26:34scorchewebguest53: did you extract the entire folder or just the firmware file?
00:27:03webguest53entire folder man, ive updated builds countless times before
00:27:18 Quit petur ("here today, gone tomorrow")
00:27:24webguest53it also displays "
00:27:37bluebrotherVoiceFiles is also mentioned (and linked) in the manual
00:27:55bluebrotherwhat did I miss?
00:27:59webguest53it also displays "incompatible version" when accessing the Elephant Dream movie or any GameBoy games, two things that previously worked flawlessly
00:28:18scorchewebguest53: which further says to me that you didnt do a full update
00:28:19H10_007quickbluebrother: all that is true, and the manual is great, but the information is in the wiki, why not organize it?
00:28:32amiconnNico_P: Uh, what other menu problem is there?
00:28:37webguest53i'll try again bud, this'll be the 3rd time..
00:28:37bluebrotherH10_007quick, a noob should read the manual, not the wiki
00:28:58H10_007quickoh nevermind then
00:29:00Nico_Pamiconn: some things not being exited properly, like settings
00:29:02amiconnI only experienced the scrolling problem, which btw was introduced sometime last week. Scrolling worked perfectly before
00:29:23scorchewebguest53: make sure that you are properly unmounting before unplugging the device
00:30:03*jhMikeS never enables write behind caching on his USB stuff
00:30:04bluebrotherthat's one of the major ideas of the manual
00:30:36chrisjs169webguest53: Just downloaded the newest build, it works
00:31:20*linuxstb commits libmad support for test_codec
00:31:21*jhMikeS thinks it a bit silly not to have a led on the cross :\ ... perhaps mod time
00:32:51 Quit idnar (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
00:33:41webguest53hmm... the latest build for the Gigabeat seems to unclude the .rockbox folder but is missing the rockbox.gigabeat file
00:34:01scorchewebguest53: it isnt inside the folder?
00:34:22 Quit capo ()
00:34:29linuxstbwebguest53: Have you updated your bootloader recently?
00:35:14webguest53bootloader was updated approx. 2 weeks ago
00:36:06 Quit juxtap (Remote closed the connection)
00:36:49Nico_PI even get the menu exit problem in the ondio FM sim... I enter something and then when I press left the display isn't updated until I press a key
00:37:26pixelmathat leads to a "funny" effect in the LCD flip setting...
00:37:42Nico_Ppixelma: you have the same thing ?
00:38:00webguest53computer is being wonky, brb
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00:38:10 Quit webguest53 ("CGI:IRC")
00:38:17pixelmafirst button press: it will be flipped but also mirrored... the next button press makes it look right
00:38:56pixelmayes - on M5... I stated that several times this evening now...
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00:40:55krush1704hey guys, I've got problems with compiling rockbox for the simulator. Can somebody of u help me?
00:41:35linuxstbkrush1704: Just ask
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00:42:18 Part maffe
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00:43:46krush1704I'm compiling the sources for my h340, everything works. If I choose Simulation, theres an eror message when I type make
00:43:54pixelmaNico_P: but both button presses are registered - so at the time it redraws you are "two levels up" so to speak
00:44:19krush1704LD rockboxui.exe
00:44:19krush1704/usr/lib/.../apps/language.o: Relocating in generic ELF (EM: 4)
00:44:19krush1704/home/.../build/apps/language.o: could not read symbols: File in wrong format
00:44:19DBUGEnqueued KICK krush1704
00:44:19krush1704collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
00:44:28Nico_Ppixelma: yes. very annoying. it's because the lists aren't redrawn
00:44:43Nico_Phttp://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/apps/menu.c?r1=13294&r2=13337&pathrev=13338
00:44:50linuxstbkrush1704: DId you run "make clean" after running configure again?
00:45:03krush1704no, wait, I'll try it
00:45:39linuxstbkrush1704: You could also create separate build directories - one for the real build, and one for the simulator.
00:46:26chrisjs169krush1704: when was the last time you updated binutils?
00:47:02krush1704updated binutils today, because I installed cygwin new on this computer
00:47:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:47:09 Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
00:47:33chrisjs169I believe that's why....I had a similar problem yesterday, with make stopping right where you were
00:47:43chrisjs169if you can, downgrade binutils
00:47:45krush1704I think make clean worked, it's getting further
00:48:00krush1704cygwin is still compiling
00:48:19chrisjs169krush1704: ok, in that case, I guess your version of binutils does work fine
00:48:37krush1704is there a known problem with binutils?
00:49:43chrisjs169yesterday the debian based build was messed up, before you mentioned you were using cygwin
00:50:11jhMikeSlinuxstb: calling plugin_get_audio_buffer after stealing the stack is a bit scary :)
00:50:27krush1704ahh okay, got Widows
00:50:32krush1704Windows
00:50:37linuxstbjhMikeS: Oops, I do it in the wrong order?
00:51:18jhMikeSjust had a look and playback could still be going at that point...hehe
00:51:20linuxstbAh, it doesn't really matter as I don't modify the stack until later anyway...
00:51:28Nico_PI just tested test_codec on an mp3 file and it worked fine
00:51:35 Join midkay [0] (n=midkay@rockbox/developer/midkay)
00:51:37linuxstb"steal" just returns the pointer to the stack, it doesn't change anything.
00:51:39Nico_P698% realtime I think
00:51:45krush1704Thanks guys! everything works fine now. I'll create another folder for the simulation
00:52:03jhMikeSok, I didn't look at the implementation for that
00:52:16linuxstbjhMikeS: Maybe something like "get_codec_stack_address" would be a better name
00:52:18CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
00:52:18*jhMikeS is easily alarmed
00:52:49amiconnlinuxstb: Why don't you just create another stack for the codec in the plugin?
00:52:58jhMikeSmight be
00:53:05linuxstbamiconn: Because it needs to be in IRAM
00:53:16amiconnYeah, and? So use iram....
00:53:26linuxstbI can't - the plugin loads codecs
00:53:28amiconnI guess this plugin stops playback anyway...
00:53:52jhMikeSif the plugin uses IRAM, then the codec can't run
00:54:12amiconnWell, does the plugin actually call the codec?
00:54:30linuxstbYes, that's the whole point...
00:54:38*amiconn would think just linking the codeclib to a test plugin would be way easier
00:54:58 Quit bluebrother (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:55:02linuxstbThat would need 1 test plugin for every codec though.
00:55:10amiconnYeah, and?
00:55:21linuxstbThen I think my approach is easier.
00:55:26amiconnI doubt any dev will work on optimizing a dozen codecs at once
00:56:12linuxstbYou can't just link the codec lib - you would need to implement a decoder using that lib.
00:56:23amiconnJust thinking kiss here... introducing a function just for stealing the stack from the core codec for testing purposes only doesn't sould like kiss
00:57:25linuxstbI agree it's not perfect, but I think the test plugin is worth it.
00:57:48jhMikeSwell, you could use info from the scheduler about the saved context since the thread isn't running
00:58:21linuxstbThe same function could be used for mpegplayer as well though - to reuse the codec thread's IRAM stack for mpegplayer's audio thread.
00:58:55amiconnI think a better approach would be to make libmad use less stack
00:58:57jhMikeSPeek at the thread_entry structure
01:00
01:00:13linuxstbamiconn: I wish it did use less stack - it does seem to have suffered from over-optimisation a little...
01:02:05amiconnStack hijacking sounds like a weird idea... but there is a more important problem with an extra function: this function needs to exist unconditionally
01:02:23 Quit robin0800 (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-")
01:02:37amiconnOtherwise running the test plugin on a plain core would make it hard crash
01:03:40*amiconn wonders whether it might be possible to run the codec *in the actual codec thread* from the test plugin
01:03:50 Join Alonea [0] (n=chatzill@24-117-195-16.cpe.cableone.net)
01:04:21linuxstbThat was the first thing I looked at, but the codec thread seems too tied to PCM playback.
01:04:34jhMikeShow?
01:04:55linuxstbWell, it's tied to PCM playback...
01:05:15linuxstbOr maybe I misunderstood...
01:05:16jhMikeSredirect the insert function and I think it should work
01:06:05linuxstbBut I also want to avoid the core buffering functions - so I can do a decode completely from RAM.
01:06:41linuxstbApart from this stack issue, I'm very happy with the way it works - the plugin itself is simple and flexible.
01:07:39Aloneai have not had a chance to look at it, but how is the new button light function working out so far?
01:07:45Aloneafor the gigabeat that is
01:07:50 Join linuxstb_ [0] (i=5343d4aa@rockbox/developer/linuxstb)
01:09:03jhMikeS really, you could redirect all the relevant codec apis to the plugin
01:09:57 Quit entheh (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:10:19jhMikeSprofiling encoders will just need to have them not write files
01:11:36 Part maffe
01:12:59*jhMikeS is just thinking out loud about various ways to do it, not saying what's right
01:13:24 Join buleeahn [0] (n=buleeahn@cuervo.unwiredbuyer.com)
01:13:30buleeahnGood evening all.
01:13:48buleeahnDoes anyone know what the battery capacity of an ipod video is?
01:13:57linuxstb_OK, so should I revert my last change and see if we can come up with something better?
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01:14:10 Join safetydan [0] (i=cbca159f@rockbox/developer/safetydan)
01:14:52Aloneabuleeahn: it doesn't say on the back anywhere? (i would not know, dont have ipod) or are you talking time wise?
01:15:16buleeahnI'm talking about what the mah rating is for the stock ipod video battery.
01:15:22jhMikeSyou could just add a pointer to the thread entries and peek at the stack member
01:15:59 Join Thundercloud_ [0] (n=thunderc@82.152.193.215)
01:16:03jhMikeSfind a thread named "codec" and that's the one...no new function needed
01:16:42Aloneabuleeahn: ah, ok, thats what I thought you were talking about. I am not sure where it would say.
01:17:16buleeahnAha! http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DeviceChart#Apple_units
01:17:26buleeahnI knew it'd be *somewhere* on the rockbox site.
01:18:12linuxstb_jhMikeS: OK, I'll give that a go.
01:18:17Aloneabuleeahn: http://ipodbatteryfaq.com/ipodbatteryandpower.html
01:18:24Aloneaoh, ok
01:18:27Aloneanm then
01:18:37AloneaI found another page. ^^;;
01:18:44buleeahnhehe
01:18:47buleeahnThanks Alonea.
01:18:57buleeahnTwo reference points won't hurt.
01:19:19Aloneagoogle is your friend. ^__^ . no, can't hurt at all.
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01:31:49 Quit bospaadje ("great minds run in great circles")
01:33:34kkurbjunshould buttonlight be one word, like backlight, or should it be two words "button light"
01:35:39 Quit lee-qid ("aufwiederbyebientotsayonara")
01:35:43Aloneahmmm..I don't know. either is fine I think
01:35:44 Nick Mouser_X is now known as Mouser|headache (n=mouser_x@67.110.120.164.ptr.us.xo.net)
01:36:14kkurbjunI think I'll just stick with "button light" then
01:36:15linuxstb_kkurbjun: I would vote for two words
01:36:27kkurbjunsounds good :)
01:36:37kkurbjunwheel light is two words too
01:36:46AloneaI mean, my spell check says both should be 2 words
01:37:11kkurbjunyes, so does mine
01:37:21Aloneaas in "back light" and "button light" is correct, but I get red lines on backlight and buttonlight
01:37:54kkurbjunthat was why I was wondering since we use backlight as one word
01:38:25Aloneawho knows. something tells me we don't have english majors on the rockbox team
01:38:30Alonea^___^
01:38:31kkurbjunbut I guess we'll move forward with the blessing of spell checker as well
01:38:33kkurbjun: )
01:38:53Aloneaindeed. Spell check is our friend. I was so happy firefox got it.
01:38:59Aloneaand then gaim has it as well.
01:39:35*jhMikeS votes for "Human Interface Luminescence Control"
01:39:43 Part maffe
01:39:43Aloneai am computer science major, math minor. Not really into english so much...even though I did do well on my English AP tests a couple years ago
01:39:44kkurbjunyes, that is a nice feature to have, it makes my forms look much nicer (although my grammar is still terrible)
01:39:59AloneajhMikeS: That works too. Sounds nice.
01:40:23kkurbjunjhMikeS, I like it! ;)
01:40:47LloreanAlonea: gaim doesn't exist any more. :-P
01:40:50Aloneanow, is that for Button Light or Back Light?
01:40:52 Quit Thundercloud (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:41:34LloreanjhMikeS: "Human Input Lunimnescence Control" so that it disambiguates it from the backlight, and lets it apply to both buttons or wheel. :-P
01:41:36AloneaLlorean: ah, yes, I do know, its Pigdin or however you spell it now. Just so used to calling it gaim. That, and as you can see, I can't remember how to spell the new name half the time..^^;;;
01:42:08LloreanHahaha
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01:42:44jhMikeSLlorean: so only my cat can watch the LCD
01:42:44kkurbjunthere we go, the latest commit fixes that size waste on players that do not need it
01:42:52Aloneanot to mention my program still calls itself gaim under the About.
01:43:13pearldiverkkurbjun nice commits
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01:44:08kkurbjunpearldiver, thanks
01:45:08jhMikeSkkurbjun: nice message too :)
01:45:15pearldiverdid you implement any buttonlights modes?
01:45:21kkurbjun:)
01:46:06pearldiveri remember my favourite one was charging mode :P
01:46:11kkurbjunpearldiver, no, it only has the same modes that the sansa has right now, on, off, and different timeout settings (you can match the follow mode if you like by setting the timeout to the same as the backlight)
01:46:30pearldiveraha
01:46:41kkurbjunI think the other modes should be implemented in a generic manner so that the sansa can benefit as well
01:46:55kkurbjunor other players that have buttonlights
01:46:58jhMikeSwe can use the button lights as a HD light? I wonder how unnerving that would be.
01:47:16Aloneaif we ever get the lights to pulse to the music, I will cackle manically
01:47:21pearldiverjhMikeS there used to be such mode as well
01:47:56jhMikeSa bit too flashy for my taste :P
01:47:57kkurbjunI think that feature could be useful when i'm skilling actually, that way I could know when I should slow down on the bumps
01:48:02Aloneaor start pulsing and doing patterns depending on beat for music...
01:48:18Aloneaand it is indeed flashy, but it would be cool to stare at for a while
01:48:50pearldiveri agree with jhMikeS, too flashy
01:49:10pearldiverhdd access light is nice though
01:49:24jhMikeSthe main thing there is it has to be done late where the peaks get calculated
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01:49:29AloneaI am just easily entertained. When I was messing with the demo, instead of exiting, it would start doing patterns and I stared at it...
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01:51:19AloneaI mean, I can stare at the visualizations for an hour on my Xbox 360...and on wmp. Hmmm, more visualizations for rockbox...maybe a way for them to come on after a certain time if you want?
01:52:28Aloneaor just loading them as a plugin is fine of course. If I had a clue how to program it, I would make some.
01:55:25jhMikeSA plugin could do it but it needs some nice way of accessing the pcm data about to go out to the sound chip
01:57:38Aloneaoh yes, way over my head indeed. At least at this point it is. Looking at code for me where its just running on a computer is one thing, but software for a device like this I don't have any understanding yet.
01:57:58Aloneabut I will learn
01:58:25 Quit entheh ("^~")
01:58:43jhMikeSit's not so different, and basically it's a one time learn and others are similar
02:00
02:01:06Aloneayeah. I just lack teachers really. Just have to go at the pace my school forces me to go at. Which currently is just Java
02:01:16HellDragonah
02:01:40kkurbjunAlonea, you can always teach yourself, that's how I learned
02:02:10Aloneakkurbjun: there is that, but then what do you recommend I learn from?
02:02:46*jhMikeS recommends long staring sessions at the code until it just makes sense...that's his technique
02:02:53kkurbjunI just started by looking at simple code and playing around with that to figure out the syntax and all that
02:03:09kkurbjunand then I started changing it to see what different things did
02:03:25kkurbjunjhMikeS, yep, that's pretty much it
02:03:28kkurbjun: )
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02:04:05kkurbjunthere's also tutorials and books, so it really depends on your learning style, I'm more hands on in learning, so my way worked for me
02:05:01buleeahnAlonea, What worked well for me was coming up with a project you want to do so you can set a goal, then just work towards it.
02:05:07buleeahnOne for me was playing mp3's with perl.
02:05:20buleeahnSimple, but it was a good goal that I learned a lot from.
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02:10:13woodensoulabout to give linux a try on my laptop... will the development tools packages run on the 64-bit version of ubuntu?
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02:18:41woodensouldisconnect, missed reply if one was given
02:18:50*linuxstb_ wonders why http://build.rockbox.org/cvsmod/chlog-20070507T235616Z.html says 23:56 above the table and 23:54 in the table itself
02:19:28linuxstb_woodensoul: No, no-one answered. A lot of the build servers are 64-bit, so I don't think there are problems.
02:22:30woodensoulcan someone please tell me why I can never stay connected and lag is so bad via the web client
02:22:57LloreanBecause it's a web client? It's hardly the ideal means of connecting
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02:27:04woodensoulwhat client do you recommend?
02:28:11LloreanAny really. I don't have a personal recommendation, because the client I use is generally accepted to be a below average IRC client.
02:28:28Nico_PLlorean: which do you use ?
02:28:42LloreanPidgin (formerly known as gaim)
02:28:43Nico_Pwoodensoul: gnome or KDE ?
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02:29:16saratoga3i just use the webclient
02:29:31saratoga3is pidgin nice for irc? i use it for aim already
02:29:45Lloreansaratoga3: It's very basic, but it works for me.
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02:30:20kkurbjunwhich would be better for fixing the build error on the gigabeat bootloader add a dummy function in for the button_backlight_on function in backlight.c like the other backlight functions at the bottom of backlight.c, or put a bunch of #ifdefs in the button code (button-meg-fx.c)
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02:32:09AloneajhMikeS: I did stare at parts of the code for a while and made an attempt to make SOME sense of it. Its just there are sooo many files...O.o
02:33:03Aloneakkurbjun: I just don't really don't know what simple code to look at and play around. I mean, all I know is java and html and website related code.
02:33:17linuxstb_kkurbjun: I would say probably a dummy function
02:33:53LloreanAlonea: JAVA gives you a not TOO bad start. Try reading a few plugins first
02:34:13Aloneakkurbjun: I learn best by having something to play with and then something to reference as well.
02:34:54AloneaLlorean: ok. I guess I could look at some of the plugins while I wait for downloads to finish.
02:35:25kkurbjunI started by learning from simple almost hello world examples.. I was learning from code that was made for key generators back in the day. it was only a few lines, but it gave enough to play with some printf, functions, and variables
02:35:37kkurbjunthe hello world example plugin isn't a bad start
02:36:14Aloneakkurbjun: do you know of a place online that has stuff like this for C that you find not too bad?
02:36:47AloneaI wanted to take a C++ class next semester, but they are not offering it. *sniffles*
02:37:00kkurbjunlinuxstb, that's what I'm leaning toward as well, I think I'll go witht he dummy function, it makes the code cleaner
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02:41:43Aloneahttp://www.cyberdiem.com/vin/tutorials.html this page looks interesting. I want to try number 7, but not sure what to do with files.
02:41:44kkurbjunAlonea, no I don't know any off hand, I do recall that there are quite a few tutorials that give you code snippets and explain the code
02:42:18Aloneakkurbjun: you would not happen to know what a .ps.Z file is would you?
02:42:32kkurbjuna compressed postscript file
02:42:36kkurbjunI would guess
02:43:01kkurbjunyou need to gunzip it and open it with something like ghostscript
02:43:04Aloneakkurbjun: ok. yeah. Linux says its compressed.
02:43:21kkurbjunthis may be good: http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial.html#ctutorial
02:43:28kkurbjunstart with the intro
02:44:01safetydan.Z is an old compression format which I can't remember the name of. It's not gzip, but I'm fairly certain gzip can handle it.
02:44:13linuxstbAlonea: Or convert it to PDF with ps2pdf
02:44:23Aloneakkurbjun: ok. and that file uncompressed ok and I am able to read the document with konqueror
02:44:46Aloneawell, I think I got some stuff here to get started. Thanks guys
02:44:51idnarI'm not sure if the format has a specific name
02:45:02idnarit's the format used by the standard UNIX compress utility
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02:58:45pearldiveri think something is not right with the latest build
02:58:49pearldivergigabeat target
02:59:12kkurbjunpearldiver, what problems are you having?
02:59:15pearldivermenu feels unresponsive, theres an "empty" meny item under System
02:59:20pearldivermenu*
02:59:26pearldiveralso, in the sound menu
02:59:35pearldiverif i go into bass or treble
02:59:40pearldiverits hard to go back
02:59:59pearldiveryou have to press twice and then it just jumps to main menu
03:00
03:00:16kkurbjunpearldiver, it sounds like the menu problems are universal across all players, not sure what's causing it
03:01:46kkurbjunoh, wait, the latest change I did to the menu string took out the string on the gigabeat as well
03:02:16kkurbjunthe missing string is my fault
03:02:24kkurbjunthe double presses are universal though
03:03:56kkurbjunif you go back out of the setting, and then press up or down it seems to draw the screen that you are on
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03:06:23billsvilleno, i don't think your commit kkurbjun messed up the main menu "empty" item
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03:06:39billsville*i think* it happened when dave chapman made his last commit
03:06:54pearldiverhmm
03:07:09billsvillebecause prior to i made a sim build and the "button light " was diffinitely there
03:07:31billsvilleand then i built another 20 mins later for my gigabeat and that that menu item was missing.
03:07:44 Quit moos ("Glory to Rockbox")
03:08:24billsvillebut that's just my two cents.
03:09:50kkurbjunno, I did it, but as it turns out there's a larger problem for the gigabeat strings, none of the specific strings for the gigabeat are being followed in the english.lang file
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03:12:49*Alonea is happy she did not update her player today to see new button light functions
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03:16:58LloreanWait, so when you create a voice file now, how do you include target-specific strings?
03:17:53kkurbjunin english.lang, the proper name is gigabeatf
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03:18:26kkurbjunbased on configure
03:18:26kkurbjunI don't know how the voice files work, but I would guess it's the same
03:18:26kkurbjunLlorean, is there a problem with the voice files?
03:18:26LloreanWell, there didn't used to be target-specific voice files.
03:18:26LloreanAnd I just realized that none of our ones on the wiki specify being target specific.
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03:20:42kkurbjunthere we go, the blank entry should be fixed after this build
03:21:26kkurbjunstill not sure what's up with the settings menus, it looks like something is not being drawn after exiting a setting by selecting or canceling
03:22:18kkurbjunis there a way to revert specific files in a local tree to a particular version?
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03:25:45kkurbjunJdGordon, could your menu.c change have effected exiting out of setting lists?
03:27:05JdGordonanything is possible... what broke?
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03:27:54kkurbjunwhen you enter settings like settings->sound settings->volume and then make a selection or cancel
03:28:28kkurbjunthe previous screen does not get redrawn until you press up or down
03:29:07JdGordongrr, ok ill fix that in a sec
03:29:26JdGordonso much for me trying t reduce the number of calls to gui_listdraw"(0
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03:40:21kkurbjunJdGordon, great, that fixed the problem
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04:19:40Joelaww is this that awful time when everyone is asleep...and the insanity creeps back...?
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04:30:27Aloneasleep? whats sleep Joel?
04:31:11Joeli dunno, i sure don't do whatever that is ;)
04:32:47Aloneame neither...and insanity is always here.
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04:34:59Aloneajust trying to figure out C now and all its many files.
04:35:34Joelyah, wanting to dive into the rockbox source?
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04:38:13Aloneayeah, but I don't have any experience with C, just java. So I am going over some tutorials and trying to figure out how to compile it in eclipse...*is so very confused*
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04:38:46Joelyahhh i would be scared to compile rockbox in eclipse too!
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04:40:05Joelyi love my endless screens of terminal windows...
04:40:06Aloneaoh, not compiling rockbox in eclipse. Just starting with a simple C file. I just compile rockbox in the terminal (on linux)
04:40:10JdGordonAlonea: use eclipse to edit the code.. but the terminal to compile
04:40:11Joelyah
04:40:57Joelyhey JdGordon.
04:40:58AloneaJdGordon: Ok, thanks. though there is a way to do it in eclipse it looks like. I just don't understand what all the files are. the .c files, the .h, and .o is what I have seen mentioned.
04:41:27JdGordon.c and .h is souce, .o is compiled...
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04:41:51Aloneaok, and do I have to have a .c and .h file? and how do I get this .o file?
04:41:51JdGordonthere is no point compiling it in eclipse unless your compiling the sim and it has nice gdb-esque features...
04:42:05Neox38gameboy on rockbox you use gnuboy?
04:42:23AloneaJdGordon: I am not compiling rockbox in eclipse. Just a simple program that outputs text and does the mean of 2 numbers.
04:42:25JdGordonAlonea: gcc makes the .o
04:42:43JdGordonits a temp file you dont even worry about
04:42:53AloneaJdGordon: ok. and do I need a .h?
04:42:57JdGordonthe only thing you need is a .c with int main() { return 0; }
04:43:04JoelyNeox38, rockboy...it's a port of gnuboy, yes
04:43:22JdGordonyou use .h if you need to export some funtinos to other parts of code
04:43:29*JdGordon bbiab
04:43:35Aloneaok. got that.
04:43:38Neox38k sweet
04:45:45Neox38rockyboy work on latest build with video 5.5gen ipods?
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04:46:22Joelyuhh does rockbox work on video 5.5gen ipods??
04:46:48Joelyi'm not trying to be mean...i just don't have an ipod, and i know the latest aren't supported
04:47:03Neox38yeah it works like a dream
04:47:15Neox38works p e r f e c t
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04:47:27Neox38trying to get a port of gnuboy on it
04:47:28Neox38now
04:47:40Joelywhy?
04:47:50Joelywhy can't you just use the plugin?
04:48:12Neox38which?
04:48:16Neox38gnuboy?
04:48:47Neox38is it in rockbox by default?
04:51:15Joelyi thought so...although i don't think it's a user seen plugin...more of a plugin that sees the files...
04:51:19Neox38oh wait I found it nvm
04:51:38Joelyplays them like you would an audio file
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06:27:35mrkOkay. I'm going to attempt to enable cover-art on my gigabeat now.
06:28:11Aloneamrk: good luck! I think I have it on on mine. you ever put patches on before or did they finally get that in the main code?
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06:28:23mrknope, I haven't put patches on, and they haven't
06:28:41mrkI figure that I'll actually make thepictures the right size/format first
06:28:57Aloneamrk: ah ok. what are you using cygwin, vmware, or do you have linux?
06:29:20mrkI've got nothing, but I've heard that there are precompiled builds that have album art enabled?
06:29:28mrkI really don't know what I'm doing here, to be honest.
06:30:06Aloneamrk: umm, they do have precompiled builds with it? wow...I compile rockbox myself. Once you learn how its not too bad.
06:30:30mrkit'd probably be pretty bad at it anyway, really.
06:30:33mrkI'd*
06:31:09mrkthey should be 100x100?
06:31:15Aloneamrk: there is some documentation on it in on rockbox.org.
06:31:17Aloneayes
06:31:21mrkall right.
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07:00
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07:24:22AloneaReduce code size for players that do not have the 'Human Interface Luminescence Control' feature
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07:24:30Aloneakkurbjun: thats wonderful. ^____^
07:28:21mrkstill doing the art <_<
07:28:26mrkrenaming/resizing <_<
07:28:27HellDragonlol
07:28:49Aloneamrk: hehe. yeah, I got bored with making it.
07:28:55mrkyeah
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07:29:03mrkluckily, I've only got ~80 albums here...
07:29:15Aloneathankfully
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07:29:20mrkI'll just do it each time I get new music later, which is easy enough.
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07:29:25Aloneayeah
07:34:05kkurbjunmrk, I had a script that automatically downloaded and sized the art for each of my albums...
07:34:12HellDragonlol
07:34:20mrkah, really? because I hate you.
07:34:33mrkno biggy, though; I'm almost done.
07:34:46kkurbjunas long as the artist/album followed the dir structure, artist/album
07:34:53kkurbjunoh well
07:36:52amiconnLol, "Human Interface Luminescence Control"
07:37:34kkurbjun:), thank jhMikeS for that term
07:38:24Lloreanamiconn: What happens to target-specific strings when voice files are built?
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07:39:38amiconnumm
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07:39:57amiconnNot sure, but they should be handled the same way as the .lng files
07:40:16amiconnSo they become more and more target specific
07:40:45kkurbjunif anyone is interested in the script in the future for album art, here's what I used, I have no idea if it still works or what tools it needs though: http://www.pastebin.ca/476580
07:40:45amiconnThere is no proper target indication in the header yet
07:41:35Lloreanamiconn: So this means that if we provide voice files, there will need to be target specific ones?
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07:41:44amiconnYes, that's the plan
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07:53:11mrkbbs.
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07:58:58ender`any idea what's going on - my sister's ipod won't turn on, and doesn't seem to react to connecting to USB, and ifi try to reboot it, i only get a symbol of battery with a lightning bolt on the screen?
07:59:32scorcheleave it plugged in for a couple hours
08:00
08:00:14ender`so it's just a flat battery?
08:02:53amiconnlinuxstb: You forgot something when adding functions to the plugin api
08:03:50mrkif I have an .m3u playlist that is made up of files on my player
08:03:55mrkwill the player read it?
08:04:07amiconnThe api version must be bumped
08:04:11mrkah, got it!
08:05:47mrkall right, now to attempt album art <_<
08:10:27mrkwell, that actually doesn't seem /too/ difficult.
08:10:52mrkall I have to do is change the wps file? because that doesn't mention any patching or anything, does it? which I thought was required?
08:12:34mrkwell, I'll get back to you guys tomorrow. I formatted all of my coverart, fixed all of my tags, fixed my directory naming-scheme, and fixed all of the filenames
08:12:42mrkso I'm done for the day. adieu!
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09:05:38bishilloHi!
09:05:51*petur waves
09:06:16bishilloAny suggestion for a rockbox build for ipod video 30Gb with album art support?
09:06:24 Quit Rob2222 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
09:06:28bishilloI tried one, but usb doesn't worj with it...
09:07:38LloreanMost people here would probably prefer that you use an official build, in general.
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09:08:16bishilloBut an official build doesn't have album art support, does it?
09:11:29Aloneabishillo: nope. not that i ever seen. its a patch
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09:14:57bishillook... thanks
09:17:33bishilloUSB currently isn't implemented from within Rockbox.[...]
09:18:17bishilloIt seems that that's why usb was not working... XDDD
09:19:50Aloneai would not know. USB is perfectly fine for me on my gigabeat.
09:20:53bishillohum... that was extracted from ipod faq... maybe right now is solved... I tried an experimental build and didn't work, but I dunno if that was the cause, or on ipods in general is not working...
09:21:26Aloneawell, try a daily build instead
09:21:33bishilloI will
09:22:05Aloneaits best to start with those anyway. I mean, I don't use them anymore. I compile myself so I can have my insert and album art patch.
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09:22:55bishilloinsert patch?
09:23:20Aloneabut I would just get rockbox working properly before doing anything crazy. and just be careful and read the instructions and DON'T skip steps. Its bad when we see people brick their players due to not reading carefully and skipping over steps they think are not needed
09:24:08B4gderusb is not supported by Rockbox natively on any PP target (ipod, sansa, iriver h10)
09:24:49Aloneathe insert patch allows you to insert a song to the beginning, next, etc. to the current playlist by selecting the song. Kind of like when you click on music files in windows and it just adds it to the list in WMP
09:25:20Aloneayou can of course turn it off and such if you don't like it later or don't want it to do it.
09:26:48bishilloB4gder: so the only way of adding music is rebooting in disk mode?
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09:27:55amiconnbishillo: No, rockbox reboots automatically into emergency disk mode
09:29:02intgrNo USBFS support yet?
09:32:59B4gderintgr: nope, but hopefully by the end of the summer if things are good...
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09:34:31bishillonice
09:36:16intgrI suppose it'll remain a compile-time choice?
09:36:52B4gderI think it is a bit premature to discuss that, but why would you not want usb support?
09:36:55JdGordonspeakin of which... whats hapnoeng with the GSoCs? has the coding started?
09:37:31intgrWell, USB mass storage is foolproof and presumably has a much lower footprint.
09:37:49B4gderwell, we speak of mass storage here
09:37:55B4gderbut a usb stack implemented in sw
09:38:28intgrAh.
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09:42:36Aloneanight guys. us ladies need to get our sleep. *wink*
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09:57:24B4gderAlonea: hey, you're supposed to be sleeping!
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09:57:44*B4gder laughs
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09:58:25Aloneaok, so I lied B4gder..I actually wanted to watch a movie on my laptop, but the dvd playback is really poor
09:58:31B4gderhehe
09:59:14AloneaB4gder: I have never watched a dvd in linux before. the video seems to keep on skipping
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10:01:45intgrNo hardware acceleration? Blame the manufacturers.
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10:02:16Aloneaok, got it fixed. I have to set the video engine to something different on some of my video files. i set it back to auto and the dvd is now no longer pixely or skipping.
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10:03:13Aloneaintgr: actually have hardware acceleration. just cursed with fglrx though. such is life and the evils of ati. well, not that I figured it out I am going to relax in bed with a matrix marathon...
10:03:27Alonea*now
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10:04:30Aloneabye again dears! keep up all the wonderful work. and still, whoever put on jewels is lovely. so very addicting. and of course video too.
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10:37:40linuxstbamiconn: I didn't think it was worthwhile bumping the API three times yesterday just for a test plugin, I just did it during the first commit. Do you think it should always be done, regardless?
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10:50:36amiconnlinuxstb: Hmm, a bit difficult to say. Theoretically every api change requires a bump, and an incompatible one (like your last one) even a bump of minversion
10:51:05amiconnBut maybe we don't need to do it every time if the commits are close enough together
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10:52:02amiconn'Close enough' isn't a clear definition though...
10:53:08pondlifelinuxstb: Why isn't test_codec included in SOURCES by default?
10:53:58amiconnIt's handled like all test* plugins
10:54:19amiconnYou add it when you need it. Adding it by default makes no sense as it's not intended for users
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10:54:47pondlifeOK
10:55:01B4gderI think this approach makes sense
10:55:36linuxstbIf it's compiled by default, it needs to be in the manual, and I don't think the test plugins should be in the manual...
10:55:52pondlifeNo problem. I was just thinking that perhaps you'd want users to help collate stats - all codecs on all devices.
10:57:02linuxstbThat could be useful, but I think there are enough users capable of compiling to do that.
10:57:32B4gderperhaps we should even provide a set of test songs to use for such benchmarks
10:58:01amiconn...i-river... catch the digital flow.... ;)
10:58:45B4gder:-O
10:58:54linuxstbThat has the advantage of being short - and I think rasher has a set of encodings on his website...
10:59:01B4gderlet's record a rockbox song at devcon ;-P
10:59:07amiconnrasher has a set of this in various encodings on his website
10:59:16*amiconn too slow
10:59:29linuxstbThe main limitation is that test_codec needs to be able to buffer the whole track before decoding - so for the 16MB targets it needs to be around 13-14MB in the lossless formats.
10:59:58amiconnhehe
11:00
11:00:09*amiconn imagines testing flac with test_codec on iFP...
11:00:34B4gderthe wav on rasher's site is 8,3MB
11:00:42B4gder8.3 even
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11:04:22*pixelma has a "dictaphone.mp3" by "Archos" on album "Using your Ondio" - a 140kb file (87 kbps) :P
11:07:06linuxstbAs the files are already there, I think we may as well choose the iriver song for testing. I wonder if rasher can handle the bandwidth...
11:07:47linuxstbIt needs a few more formats as well though.
11:07:50JdGordonis that file gpl?
11:08:29linuxstbI don't care - rasher is the one distributing it...
11:10:32linuxstbMaybe it would be more efficient to distribute a test track in flac, along with a script to do all the encodings. Although that obviously requires people to have all the encoders...
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11:11:29GodEaterB4gder: you've probably noticed already - but my build server has dropped off the internet, and apparently won't be back on it again for about 2 weeks. Sorry for the inconvenience :(
11:11:48B4gderno worries, the build master adjusts to that by itself
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11:12:13B4gderI have more problems with the very slow servers
11:12:15GodEaterwill I need to let you know when it's back up
11:12:26GodEateror will the build master notice on it's own ?
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11:12:38B4gderno, I'll leave it in so as soon as it works it'll be used again
11:12:46GodEatercool
11:12:53*GodEater aims a large rocket at BT
11:13:11linuxstbB4gder: Can you stop giving ender's server sims to build?
11:13:26B4gderah right, I'll do that
11:14:15linuxstbB4gder: How is the bandwidth usage on the download server at the moment? Could it handle a set of test audio files?
11:14:30linuxstbI guess not many people would download them though.
11:14:35linuxstb(unlike the videos)
11:14:50B4gdersure, it wouldn't be any problems at all
11:15:34B4gdersdl builds disabled on deepthought
11:16:12B4gderFYI: I'll take off on a one-week vacation starting after work today
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11:19:18*amiconn hopes that there will be no lack of build server pokers during that time
11:19:51B4gderlinus is around and Zagor should be lurking in the background as well
11:20:17B4gderI'll soon need to fix the build master script to kill really old builds
11:20:34B4gderas it seems we have problems with some ssh-connections just going stalled and never again waking up
11:21:09*Zagor wakes up
11:21:45markunZagor: from hybernation?
11:21:57markunjust in time for the devcon :)
11:22:02Zagorhehe
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11:22:14B4gderbtw gcc 4.1.2-6 in debian is still bad
11:24:01amiconnIt's not gcc, it's binutils
11:24:09B4gderoh right
11:24:31amiconnFor some reason I can't upgrade gcc atm anyway - dependency mismatch
11:24:39amiconnHappens a lot lately :(
11:24:42B4gder2.17cvs20070426-5
11:25:07B4gdercrashes
11:25:11Zagoris that the reported rc bug?
11:25:20B4gderit is reported at least
11:25:40amiconn-2, -3 and -4 all crashed
11:25:45B4gderld segfaults on print-map
11:25:47amiconnDon't know about -1
11:26:23Zagor"ld: Segfault when generating map file." http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=422147
11:26:35Zagorperhaps?
11:26:47B4gderyes, that's the one I think it is
11:27:25Zagorhmm, there are more open segfault bugs
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11:34:47JdGordonB4gder: could you give somone in the channel acces to the build master so they can be killed if your not around?
11:35:28LinusNi'll be around
11:36:11*JdGordon thinking about the hours when the 3 of you are sleeping....
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11:48:05bluebrotherhmm, a Rockbox song would be nice ...
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11:54:36markunB4gder: I wonder why the devcon west is much more popular..
11:55:27markunmaybe americans are more used to traveling long distances
11:55:43*scorche whistles
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11:59:39bluebrothermarkun: I guess because travelling long distances isn't that problematic as in europe
12:00
12:00:01amiconnIs it problematic in europe?
12:00:20bluebrotherit's at least not as easy
12:00:46*linuxstb doesn't think travel in Europe is hard...
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12:01:05scorchei thought europe had free travel between borders of most countries
12:01:17markunscorche: yes, we do
12:01:37markunand in many countries you can pay with the same currency.. but not sweden :)
12:01:37scorcheso what makes it more problematic?
12:01:50scorcheah...just the currency then?
12:01:57markunask bluebrother
12:02:21bluebrotherthe lack of good connections, especially if you don't have access to a car
12:02:35amiconnFlights are cheap nowadays...
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12:02:55scorcheflights are cheaper between europe than between the US, from what i saw
12:03:03bluebrotherflying from Frankfurt Hahn would be cheap, but it's almost unreachable unless by car
12:03:20scorchemost people in the US have a car, so i can see that
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13:28:24[steveo]hmm
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14:04:25preglowoooh, nice kilobyte
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14:04:54*preglow blinks at the error message
14:04:54markunwow
14:05:09aliaskYep, that's a nice delta for sure.
14:05:23markunwhat happened to the old JdGordon which only increased the binary size :)
14:05:27B4gderand 350 points
14:05:30markuns/which/who/
14:05:54JdGordonyeah, umm... whats the errors?
14:06:13bluebrotheraliens replaced JdGordon by a different one?
14:06:18JdGordonaparts from the errors... /me freeking rules!
14:06:46JdGordonerror: no memory region specified for loadable section `.text.menu_get_itemname' <- plugin ram needs increasing?
14:06:50JdGordonplugin buffer even
14:06:51pixelmaI only believe this if everything is working correctly then ;)
14:07:11markun:)
14:07:31preglowJdGordon: i don't know, check it out locally
14:07:46preglowi don't think increasing plugin ram is going to be very popular
14:08:16JdGordonno, I dont think so
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14:08:54markunB4gder: can we listen to our DAPs over speakers at the office during devcon?
14:09:25peturmarkun: all at the same time?
14:09:32B4gderthe more the merrier!
14:09:41B4gder:-)
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14:09:52*petur just returned from beer shop :)
14:10:08preglowcurse you!
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14:10:17aliaskYeah, enough with the teasing...
14:10:20markunpetur: I would like to bring some alcohol, but am afraid I have to pay a fine to Ryan Air already :(
14:10:30markunfor extra weight
14:10:34amiconnJdGordon: It's not a plugin ram issue
14:10:52amiconnChessbox is too large for the archos plugin ram anyway, so it's loaded as an overlay
14:11:09markunpetur, preglow: do you like Tsing Tao beer?
14:11:28aliaskYES
14:11:29preglowit's ok, but i like heavier stuff
14:11:31aliaskIt's so cheap :D
14:11:37preglowit's not cheap here :/
14:11:42markunneither here
14:11:43aliaskReally?!
14:11:48markunbut I like the rice taste
14:11:48JdGordonamiconn: ok then, what fix is needed? try to red the menu so its much smaller? or..?
14:11:52*petur will bring to devcon 6x75cl: tripel karmeliet, duvel, westmalle tripel and 3 chimay's (red/white/blue)
14:11:54aliaskIt's $5 for a 700ml bottle here.
14:12:09preglowooh, i think i'll have a westmalle dubbel today
14:12:10*JdGordon coming t devcon to steal petur's beer supply
14:12:10markunpetur: I don't think I ever had karmeliet
14:12:11amiconnSame goes for rockboy
14:12:46aliaskAre 75cl bottles common in europe for beer?
14:12:47preglowamiconn: and doom one day? :)
14:12:59preglowaliask: are in belgium
14:13:07markunthen we would have to change the april fool's doom page :)
14:13:19amiconnpreglow: Nah, not possible
14:13:32aliaskWow, I've only ever seen Tsing Tao in anything that size.
14:13:37peturaliask: most beer is 25cl or 33cl but many brands also have 75cl, 1.5L and some 3L
14:13:49B4gder50cl is quite common here too
14:14:09JdGordon500ml cans.. bogan but awesome :D
14:14:10B4gderor around 50cl when they're british ;-)
14:14:11aliaskEverything here is 330 or 375ml
14:14:20markuntypical rockbox talk today :)
14:14:20amiconnJdGordon: The overlay ram size for these plugins needs to be adjusted
14:14:32markunamiconn: are you a beer fan?
14:14:47JdGordonamiconn: where is that defined?
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14:15:17petursorry for getting the channel offtopic!
14:15:33bluebrotherhmm, beer talk at that time of the day ...
14:16:49linuxstbamiconn: Isn't it just a section name problem? archos.lds doesn't have .text*
14:17:04amiconnlinuxstb: Very possible
14:17:17amiconnhmm.........
14:17:23linuxstbAnd the plugin lib is using function sections
14:17:41amiconnyes
14:18:29amiconnThat went unnoticed until today because the plugins with separate linker scripts didn't use plugin lib elements
14:18:46amiconnbah
14:19:00JdGordonis it a big deal to fix?
14:19:01amiconnJdGordon: Thanks for breaking my memory speed test plugin....
14:19:17amiconnNot a big deal
14:19:48JdGordonno problem (asuming that was sarcasm.. else... sorry :p )
14:19:49linuxstbJdGordon: I meant to ask you if there are any plugins using the new menu API that I can use for an example?
14:20:03JdGordona few do, but not such good exampls
14:21:02JdGordonlinuxstb: you want an example how to ue the settings?
14:21:56linuxstbNot the settings, just a simple menu. I want to put a menu in test_codec to allow the user to choose between a speed test and dumping the output to a wav file.
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14:22:42*amiconn wonders whether JdGordon test-compiled before commit
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14:27:28linuxstbamiconn: Are you fixing the archos.lds files or shall I?
14:27:35amiconnlinuxstb: That was indeed the problem. Simple fix.
14:28:02JdGordonlinuxstb: oh good :) do a search for do_menu( in /plugins.. plenty of examples
14:28:26JdGordonamiconn: i did player and e200... how was i supposed to know that obscure error was even possible?
14:30:59preglowthis is why we have the build servers
14:31:09preglowto not have to test compile every single target
14:31:47*amiconn usually tests a couple of targets, selected based on possible effects
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14:32:10amiconnNot every single one, that'd take too long
14:33:23JdGordonwell yeah, I did player just to make sure the statusbar was fine.. nothing else shhuold have been target dependant
14:34:26B4gderpetur: from BMA there's a bus to stockholm city, just a 15 minutes trip
14:35:33peturnice
14:35:46B4gder60SEK one way or 100SEK for both ways
14:35:53peturand from stockholm city to devcon?
14:36:13peturah no euro's... must get some SEKs :)
14:36:25JdGordonaliask: we gonna be nerdy and have devcon-AU on the sat night?
14:36:26B4gdersubway to Akalla, and then get picked up there
14:36:43B4gderpetur: the subway is 20-25 minutes
14:37:10markunlinuxstb: did you see http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=10260.0
14:37:12aliaskJdGordon: I would, but I've got my mate's 18th on that saturday
14:37:36preglowJdGordon: which is my point, the build servers are there to catch weird-ass bugs like this one
14:37:49aliaskBut I think we should have some kind of minidevcon (or just beer)
14:37:57JdGordonafter exams :)
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14:38:05aliaskahhh yes... exams...
14:38:53*preglow likes negative deltas
14:39:06aliaskWoohoo! Saving and loading the game works now :D
14:39:09aliaskTime for bed
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14:40:55*JdGordon is slightly surprised by how much code was there for the api wrapping
14:41:14linuxstbmarkun: Yes, I read the thread, but I haven't experienced the problem.
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15:38:50hcsit seems that whenever I get to the end of a playlist playback pauses for whatever plays next, is this intended?
15:41:29JdGordonwhat is you auto-change directory setting set to?
15:41:57hcsNo
15:42:26amiconnhcs: A, so it's consistent?
15:42:34hcsI mean, when playback has finished, and I select something else to play, it starts out paused.
15:42:44*amiconn also observed this once, but didn't think it might be consistent
15:42:50hcsyeah, though I rarely get to the end of a playlist so I just now began noticing it
15:43:02amiconnProbably due to jhMikeS' playback fix last week
15:43:02JdGordonhmm... I just reproduced it
15:43:47hcsthe "audio seemed never to want to stop stopping" one?
15:44:07amiconnyes, that's the one I suspect
15:44:51hcsit seems to not happen when I replace a dynamic playlist (I have it set to prompt for that)
15:49:26hcsnever mind, that last comment
15:50:56*linuxstb wonders how to disable the button lights on his gigabeat
15:53:27JdGordonlinuxstb: system settings
15:53:46JdGordonunless the gb isnt using the same setting as the e200
15:54:39Nico_Plinuxstb: in the system settings
15:55:01Nico_Poops sorry didn't see JdGordon's answer
15:55:04linuxstbJdGordon: Yes, I found those settings, but there appear to be two bugs - 1) If "timeout" is set to off (which I'm assuming is the way to disable them), they still come on at boot; 2) If you set the timeout to off but then go into the brightness setting, they stay on forever after leaving the brightness setting screen.
15:56:13linuxstbI don't know if this counts as a bug, but brightness "0" isn't the same as off.
15:57:11JdGordonhmm... seems the button light setting is broken..
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16:00:48hcsregarding the pausing issue, I'm running through the simulator to try and see exactly what's going wrong
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16:01:35Toni1Yeah, I have external sd-cards basically working on the sansa.
16:01:47B4gderwow, rocking
16:02:20Toni1now the integration can start
16:03:01linuxstbToni1: congrats
16:03:13Toni1thanks
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16:03:54Toni1In the mail I missed the important part, which I noticed when looking at the current code
16:03:56variantlo all, I have an archos xs 100 or something.. is it possible to put rockbox/linux on it?
16:04:06variantgmini xs 100
16:04:33B4gdervariant: no
16:04:37preglowToni1: extremely cool
16:04:39variantB4gder: :(
16:04:58Toni1preglow: thanks
16:05:44Toni1preglow: unfortunately my sansa has no radio, else this would be the next job
16:06:08linuxstbB4gder: Don't you mean: Yes, it's possible - see this page for instructions - http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NewPort
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16:08:17variantlinuxstb: cool, if only i had the skillz :)
16:08:30variantlinuxstb: java programming won't help me here i fear
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16:08:57varianti only really want to put ogg files on it anyway :/
16:09:23B4gdervariant: sell it and get a rockboxable target instead!
16:10:01B4gderok, I'm off. See ya in week, I'm off to the sun in Turkey
16:10:06 Quit B4gder ("It is time to say MOOO")
16:10:11peturhave a nice holiday
16:10:25peturbah... stupid lag
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16:21:27amiconnHmm, Toni1 already left :/
16:21:45amiconnlinuxstb: What's the difference between brightness == 0 and off?
16:22:26linuxstbamiconn: brightness==0 is very faint.
16:22:40linuxstbi.e. the lights are on
16:23:54amiconnhmm
16:24:03*amiconn agrees that counts as a bug then
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16:28:55*preglow hopes the build servers won't hang, now that bagder is away
16:28:56hcsshould Q_AUDIO_STOP or Q_AUDIO_PLAY clear the paused flag?
16:28:57 Quit Thundercloud_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:29:34hcsA pause is done before the stop at the end of the track and it's never being undone
16:29:39 Quit JdGordon (Remote closed the connection)
16:31:42variantis it likely to be particularly difficult to port rockbox to an archos gmini xs 100? i mean, it must be a bunch of fairly standard parts right?
16:32:22ender`i still have a problem with the ipod mini not turning on - i left it connected to USB whole day, and the only two things i get out of it are a battery symbol with lightning bolt (when connected) or battery symbol with /!\ (when not connected). any ideas?
16:32:41hcsvariant: but how capable are those fairly standard parts of running rockbox?
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16:33:12bluebrotherender`: guess you tried resetting it already?
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16:33:44ender`if i hold select+play nothing happens. if i hold select+menu, the symbols appear
16:33:56ender`is there any other way?
16:34:19amiconnvariant: If the gmini xs100 is based on the same chipset as the gmini 120/sp and xs 200 series then it will definitely be difficult
16:35:47ender`oh, and is the mini display really monochrome - both the apple logo and one of the battery symbols look grayscale
16:35:58variantamiconn: damn
16:36:30amiconnender`: Who said it's monochrome? The mini lcd is 2bpp grayscale of course
16:36:53ender`i seemed to catch that it's monochrome somewhere
16:37:21bluebrotherthe mini is 2bit greyscale
16:37:25variantamiconn: don't particularly want to dismantle it just yet :)
16:37:34bluebrothertry flipping the hold switch before resetting on and off
16:37:39variantwill see if i can find a busted one
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16:38:11ender`bluebrother: i did, i only ever get the battery
16:38:38markunlinuxstb, amiconn: the sc606 has 64 brightness settings, from 0 to 63, to turn the led completely off you need to write to a different register.
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16:39:56bluebrotherhmm. Resetting usually fixed startup problems for me.
16:46:20linuxstbmarkun: It's just that I would have expected a brightness level of "0" to be off. But then again, I suppose we don't need two ways to turn it off...
16:47:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:50:14linuxstbmarkun: Also, maybe the setting should just be called "Button Light" and not "Button Light Timeout" - both to be consistent with "Backlight" and also so the "off" setting makes sense.
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16:51:23markunlinuxstb: maybe if we number the brightness levels 1 to 64 it's clearer
16:53:28*linuxstb tries to see the valid range of contrast settings on his h120, but can't see the high and low settings....
16:53:38*linuxstb checks the code instead
16:59:04hcsfade() in gwps-common.c seems to be the one responsible for the fatal pause
17:00
17:03:45jhMikeShcs: Q_AUDIO_STOP clears the "paused" flag. "paused" state implies "playing" state. If "paused" is true without "playing" being true, that should be addressed and Q_AUDIO_PAUSE should be filtered to take no action if not playing.
17:04:14hcsit looks like it doesn't clear that flag, though
17:04:55jhMikeSwhich?
17:05:16hcsQ_AUDIO_STOP
17:05:44hcshmm, well, I see where it should in audio_stop_playback
17:06:16 Quit Ave (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:06:16hcsbut it looks like it is maybe being called when !playing
17:06:55jhMikeS_AUDIO_PAUSE should not be setting paused to true if playing isn't true. If it does, the states should be better filtered so they remain valid.
17:07:07hcsI don't think it is
17:07:17hcsbut it might
17:07:34jhMikeSthere's only two places where playing is written
17:08:05hcsQ_AUDIO_STOP is being sent when !playing.
17:09:00jhMikeSthat's ok actually
17:09:12hcsyeah, but that's why it isn't cleared the paused flag
17:09:31jhMikeSit won't if !playing, since audio_stop_playback will be skipped
17:09:47jhMikeSpaused shouldn't be set to true if !playing however
17:09:51hcsand you're correct, the issue is Q_AUDIO_PAUSE sent when not paused
17:10:12hcsso I think I'll throw in the same condition what _AUDIO_STOP has for _PAUSE
17:10:33jhMikeSI really should have gone over this and filtered all the state changes in general...shame on me for not taking the time
17:10:58hcsmay I put in that fix for now?
17:11:02jhMikeSthat should probably work
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17:11:26jhMikeSyes, just skip all that code up front if !playing
17:12:54hcsI'm not somewhere where I can actually build it for a target now...
17:13:09jhMikeSI'll go ahead, np
17:13:14hcsok, thanks
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17:14:09jhMikeSdid you have to let something play out?
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17:15:02hcsyeah, it only happened at the end of a playlist
17:15:25hcsfade on stop would do the pause after playback had stopped
17:16:17hcsI've got to grab something to eat before an exam, later
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17:17:02amiconnHappens even with fade on stop disabled
17:20:31jhMikeSI'm wondering, is there any compelling reason to allow playback to start paused? Nothing in the UI seems to allow it, but it could be allowed.
17:23:32petursome sort of DJ mode?
17:25:54jhMikeSlike?
17:26:43peturwell don't mind me, just get rid of it ;)
17:27:53jhMikeSrecording strictly checks its state transisition and imho playback should as well...not let every message run code that shouldn't be run in the wrong state
17:28:30peturindeed
17:29:46jhMikeSwhere are the details on that recording report you linked to? I can't seem to find anything at those links.
17:31:02peturdetails? it's just a post of a guy who claims to have gotten that warning and then asked what the new stuff was when he installed the REP, so he must have been running SVN
17:32:11peturbut from his post I understand his device froze completely
17:34:29jhMikeSI'm not quite reading it as "he must have been running SVN" but just as asking about mmmm's later update. :\
17:36:32peturfrom reply 9 ( http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84121.msg1117104.html#msg1117104 ) I understand that he wasn't using Mmmm's build as he then asks what the new stuff at the bottom of the screen is
17:38:17jhMikeSI guess I have to read both threads to put it together :)
17:39:14peturthe post I just linked is of the guy with the troubles, next he also posted on the older thread
17:42:20jhMikeSthis damaged file stuff sounds like something FAT related to me, especially the overwrite when the disk filled. some dropped samples should never damage a file.
17:44:06jhMikeSrecording does make use of writing more than any other app in rb afterall
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17:50:43jhMikeSsounds like something happened that soft locked the system in his case in whice case DMA will still be throwing samples into the pcm buffer
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18:00:43The-CompilerHello
18:01:20markunhi The-Compiler
18:03:40*markun was expecting a question
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18:14:00Mephhello all
18:14:04Mephрусские есть??
18:18:20markunMeph: english please
18:18:24markunand hello :)
18:20:28*markun feels ignored..
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18:22:07linuxstbmarkun: Hello markun
18:22:18markunlinuxstb: thanks man :)
18:23:13markunI'm planning to buy a pair of Creative EP-630 in-ears, does anyone have a better suggestion?
18:23:31*Rincewind uses those, too
18:23:55markunRincewind: do you own(ed) any others to compare them to?
18:24:18 Quit barrywardell (Remote closed the connection)
18:24:34Rincewindno, I can only compare them to the ones supplied by iriver (i think those are Sennheiser MX200)
18:25:06markunCan you use them in a noisy train/metro?
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18:25:15markunwithout turning the volume up a lot
18:25:23Rincewinddefinately. They seal outside noise very well
18:25:51Rincewinddo you have iriver h120?
18:25:57markunI had a pair of Koss "The Plug" before. I hope this will be an upgrade
18:26:15 Quit mirak ("Ex-Chat")
18:26:16markunRincewind: I have a h120 a home, but now I use my Gigabeat F40
18:26:22RincewindI use my ep with replay-gain and if I set volume to -25 it is quite loud
18:26:59markunI used to have my volume between -30 and -40 with my The Plug
18:27:10markunon the iriver
18:27:45markunbut that probably doesn't tell us anything :)
18:27:49Rincewindare the Koss ones in-ear, too?
18:27:53markunyes
18:28:27markunthe first time I tried them I felt a bit dizzy because they blocked the outside noise so much :)
18:28:36markunbut I don't like the sound so much
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18:29:43RincewindI can't really compare, but I like the sound, I don't have to do anything with bass/treble or eq to like it
18:29:58Rincewindfor how much are you getting them?
18:29:59markunI also never play with those settings
18:30:04markun25 euro
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18:30:38Rincewindthat's good, I paid 32 Euro 1.5 years ago
18:33:29Mephguy
18:33:46Mephtell me pls where i can get ipodpatcher?
18:33:52Meph*guys
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18:39:19bluebrotherMeph: see the manual
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18:46:50markunRincewind: too bad I decided so late for the EP-630 today, the shop closes in 15 minutes and I can never be there in time.
18:47:31RincewindI got mine from amazon
18:47:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:56:17markunThose poor Gigabeat S owners.. http://www.mygigabeat.com/forum/messages.cfm?threadid=6C04DFCB-3048-2906-EA72F2501157CCA8
18:56:59markunsomeone port rockbox to it to make them happy again
18:57:05toffe82:)
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18:58:13Learjhmikes: Re FS #7127, that fix should do it. Logf:s showed pause being called after playback stopped, and that probably caused it (due to the earlier playback fix).
18:58:47markuntoffe82: and someone asked about a port to the Gigabeat V. I told him it shouldn't be difficult after a port to the S.
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18:59:20toffe82perhaps we can ask the source to microsoft no that it is dead :)
19:00
19:00:05 Quit Arathis ("Bye, bye")
19:00:09toffe82so are they going to drop the zune ?
19:00:57markunno idea what their plans are
19:01:19markunis PMC just an application for windows CE?
19:01:52toffe82it is build on win ce 5
19:02:23 Quit Rincewind (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
19:02:36toffe82we can ask toshiba for scematics and source code too :)
19:02:37markunfrom the screenshots I saw they are using a different application on the Zune
19:02:55toffe82yes it is not pmc
19:05:27markuntoffe82: did MS develop win CE or was it bought?
19:05:31jhMikeSLear: I hope so...I just want some hard playlist banging to make sure nothing is assuming the old behavior and continues to function
19:06:38toffe82markun: did they develop something, they bought or stole everything
19:06:59Nico_Pis it possible to activate logf on sim builds ?
19:09:20amiconnmarkun: -30 to -40 dB with in-ear plugs??
19:10:01Learnico_p: sure.
19:10:25markunamiconn: a bit loud?
19:10:39Nico_PLear: when I select an advanced build with S and L and run rockboxui I get no more output than usual
19:10:47*amiconn thinks that's quite loud, unless efficiency of those in-ear things is vastly lower than that of open earbuds
19:11:18markunamiconn: I believe they sounded about as loud as my open Koss PortaPro
19:11:19*amiconn never tried those in-ear things
19:11:26Rincewind_amiconn: this is with replaygain, wich drops another 10db
19:11:28Learnico_p: two options: 1) build a sim for a platform with remote. 2) go to the debug menu and view them or dump them to disk.
19:11:36amiconnRincewind_: Ah ok
19:11:45*amiconn doesn't use replaygain
19:12:01*amiconn wonders why replaygain drops the level that much
19:12:07Nico_PLear: oh so I can't have the logf output written in the console ?
19:12:14markunamiconn: well, not for every recording of course
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19:12:32LearNot without some adjustments, no... Easy to change though.
19:12:35amiconnI'd rather think it would make faint recordings louder and keep the loud ones alone
19:12:37markunmy old kraftwerk CD's don't need any extra volume drop
19:12:46Rincewind_it has a standardised reference level of 89 db (with 100 the max. possible)
19:13:01amiconnaha
19:13:03Learamiconn: modern CD:s are often heavily compressed.
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19:13:41markungotthardt: hi!
19:13:50gotthardthey markun
19:13:53Rincewind_replaygain avererages every recording to 89db - old ones and classical get a little bit louder, new ones quiter, so that they have the same percived loudness
19:14:32amiconnI know what it does, I only wonder why it makes the volume lower compared to no replaygain applied
19:14:38Nico_PLear: how would I do that ? I tried changing "#define logf _logf" to "#define logf DEBUGF" but got compile errors
19:14:45 Quit pondlife ("disconnected has pondlife")
19:14:54amiconnIf the reference level is 89dB, I would expect that to be equal to the volume without replaygain
19:15:15Rincewind_amiconn: well, that's the whole point of it.
19:15:27amiconn?
19:15:46Rincewind_it used to be the reference level in the 70s, but current recordings have loudness of 98, because of the 'loudness wars'
19:16:26amiconnah, hmm
19:16:39amiconnUsing the available headroom makes sense, imho
19:16:53Learnico_p: Change the logf implementation for the simulator...
19:16:55markunamiconn: also, replaygain prevents clipping by lowering the volume
19:17:28amiconnmarkun: How so? If a recording is already clipped, lowering the volume won't un-clip it...
19:17:31 Quit bluey- ("Leaving")
19:17:36Nico_Pwow there's a hell of a lot of output
19:17:52markunamiconn: no, but if you raise the volume of the faint recording you can introduce it
19:17:54LearLossy encoding can (often) add clipping.
19:18:14markunLear: at least if you play it back at the original volume
19:19:00Nico_Pwhat's the __PCTOOL__ define ?
19:19:44Rincewind_yes, the problem is with the encoding, it can introduce clipping that wasn't there in the original cd image
19:19:48nlsNico_P: for the stand-alone databas building tool
19:19:48amiconnIt was introduced mainly for the database PC tool
19:19:56Nico_Pah
19:20:10amiconnI also use it for the charcell map output pc tool
19:20:37Learmarkun: I mean digital clipping that happens when doing the conversion to output sample format.
19:21:38markunLear: yes, I know
19:21:54LearSo it happens regardless of volume...
19:22:07markunLear: I mean that replaygain is performed before that
19:22:14markunso can prevent clipping
19:22:40markunI wasn't talking about the volume of the DAC
19:22:46Rincewind_the replaygain volume adjustment is _before_ the d/a, in the digital domain. So clipping can really be prevented
19:23:07LearExactly.
19:24:58 Quit Siku ()
19:25:29Rincewind_it really isn't the same as lowering the volume yourself. I experience this every time I put music on my dap that I forgot to replaygain
19:26:46amiconnI never noticed clipping in rockbox (except when there was a bug) - and I don't use replaygain...
19:27:13markunamiconn: then you don't need replaygain for that at least :)
19:27:20Rincewind_amiconn: what format is your music in?
19:27:39amiconnAlmost everything currently on my players is mp3
19:28:07nlsi managed to get clipping in some very dynamic old enya tracks with the replaygain pre-amp set too hight (about 5dB i think)
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19:28:31markunamiconn: not a difficult choice if you use your archos' a lot, right?
19:29:25Rincewind_nls: I think the pre-amp doesn't behave well with clipping prevention, because it bypasses it.
19:29:27amiconnI'll switch to flac for some stuff on my h180 when I find the time to do a thorough cleanup / sorting session
19:29:53amiconnmarkun: True, and I don't see the need to switch to a different lossy format
19:30:01 Join Siku [0] (n=Siku@f303b.w3.tontut.fi)
19:30:22markunamiconn: no, me neither. I just started encoding in Ogg Vorbis and am happy with that too
19:30:28amiconnIt's nice to know that I can use other formats though if I encounter them (I have a single ogg vorbis album)
19:30:52amiconnBut if I have the choice I choose mp3 (encoded with lame of course)
19:31:19markunwhy not the xing encoder ;)
19:31:22amiconnurgs
19:31:34*Rincewind_ uses lame vbr for his own rips
19:31:39nlsRincewind_: I don't remember wether I had clipping prevention enabled...
19:32:12Rincewind_markun: xing could be a nice test if the clipping prevention really works ^^
19:32:36amiconnXing is a tool for demonstrating encoding artefacts
19:33:02markunwasn't xing the reason why people thought that joint-stereo was a bad idea?
19:33:13Rincewind_nls: replaygain stores a peak value in the tag. If the recording is very quit but has a high peak, then you get clipping with RG without the prevention
19:33:58nlsYay! my headphone cable that I fixed three weeks ago is now broken in a different place :-/
19:34:19markunnls: congrats!
19:34:21nlsRincewind_: ah, good to know, lowering preamp did the trick too
19:34:42markunnls: which headphones are you using?
19:35:52 Nick Rincewind_ is now known as Rincewind (n=xchatter@i3ED6EEE3.versanet.de)
19:36:20nlsmarkun: thanks :-) the broken ones are sennheiser px100 I've used them for about a year and a half, the left channel died so I cut about 10cm of the cable and soldered on a new connector, now they have the same problem again, but I bought a backup pair sennheiser eh350 lat time so I'll just swithc till I have time to solder :-)
19:36:35 Nick otih_ is now known as otih (n=otih@p54A4DA4C.dip.t-dialin.net)
19:37:14markunnls: I bought a pair of those (px100) for my g/f. I quite like the sound.
19:37:21nlsthe eh350 have a replacable cable, good stuff :-)
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19:37:59nlsyeah I really like the px100, but they are a little difficult to get to stay in the right position on my head
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19:39:53markunI hope there will be a few headphones at the devcon for me to try
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19:40:51saratogatheres about 8000 versions of Xing over the last 10 years
19:41:11saratogathe most recent versions of Xing are supposed to be pretty good
19:41:22saratogai think they finally beat fhg
19:41:36saratogastill wouldn't use it though
19:42:45markunsaratoga: and how do fhg and xing compare to lame?
19:42:49DerPapstlinuxstb: are you there?
19:42:53saratoganot very good
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20:36:00DerPapstlinuxstb_: hi :)
20:36:44linuxstb_Hi
20:37:58DerPapsti have a question about ipodpatchers makefile... i get an error: Makefile:28: *** missing separator. Stop.
20:38:37linuxstb_Is that the SVN makefile or have you changed it?
20:38:48DerPapstit's the SVN one
20:39:00DerPapstmine has the same problem.
20:39:25DerPapsti've only uncommented BOOTSRC and CFLAGS
20:39:29linuxstb_Is there a tab at the start of the line?
20:39:39linuxstb_Maybe your editor removed the tabs...
20:39:50DerPapstah.
20:39:57DerPapstthere have to be tabs?
20:40:15linuxstb_Yes, it's required in a Makefile
20:40:25DerPapstheh.
20:40:33DerPapstok then i think that is the problem.
20:40:35DerPapstthanks
20:40:44*DerPapst blames the user of proton
20:41:10 Join lids [0] (i=lds@gateway/tor/x-f9fcbc7545727280)
20:41:11linuxstb_Any text editor that changes your files should be deleted...
20:41:22DerPapstit's an option.
20:41:29DerPapsti've disabled it now.
20:41:40DerPapstshouldn't happen again
20:42:06intgrlinuxstb_: Yeah, text editors shouldn't let you "edit" text.
20:42:49linuxstb_No, they should let "you" edit, and not change things themselves...
20:43:37intgrYeah, I got it, I'm just nitpicking on your formulation. :)
20:47:40***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:13:23saratogais there any reason I'm likely to regret using cygwin for my WMA project?
21:13:52saratogaI've spent the last couple years using it for my research, so i'm tempted to continue using it
21:14:13nlssaratoga: it compiles slow as HELL
21:14:23nlsother than that it works ok :-)
21:14:34Bagderthe speed is really the main (only?) difference
21:15:06Bagderand you can always switch to or try a linux env if you grow bored of cygwin in the middle
21:15:47saratogaspeed is not a huge concern for me anyway
21:15:50saratogathanks
21:16:15markunsaratoga: will you give the fixed point changes to ffmpeg?
21:16:45pixelmanls: you are exaggerating...
21:16:56saratogamarkun: I see no reason not to
21:17:02markungood
21:17:04saratogai'm going to keep using their own file structure
21:17:12saratogashould be fairly simple to make a patch
21:17:45saratogaassuming i get everything else working anyway ...
21:17:49markunsaratoga: they will tear your patch to shreds, but also give you good hints on how to improve the code :)
21:18:13saratogayeah probably
21:18:33nlspixelma: maybe because I used cygwin on an old 2.4ghz p4 and switched to native linux on a dualcore 3.2 ghz pentium D...
21:18:34 Quit Rincewind (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:18:53saratogaanyone know if I need to actually follow the isntructions to install cygwin for rockbox, or if I can just take a normal install and run the arm-elf-gcc install script
21:19:08Bagdera normal install is fine
21:20:40 Quit darkless (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:21:00pixelmanls: maybe it's also a long time since you last tried? There were changes in the makefile (I think) last year that sped it up a lot - of course still a lot slower than native linux but I wouldn't call it "slow as hell"
21:21:39nlspixelma: yeah I used it long before the speedup, but that is what I remember...
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21:23:59amiconnA rockbox build on cygwin takes 2...3x the time as on linux on the same hardware
21:24:05amiconn(with virus scanner deactivated)
21:24:39LearSome apps slow Cygwin down. I had that problem, but the speed is now reasonable for me.
21:25:06saratogai notice the example wmaplayer software uses ALSA
21:25:10amiconnAnd ccache doesn't help speeding things up on cygwin
21:25:15saratogai'm unlikely to get that to work in cygwin right
21:25:42Learyou could always just dump the decoded data to disk...
21:25:44hcsjhMikeS: I'm actually getting freezes on and of playlist now...
21:25:50hcs*on end of playlist
21:26:52LearWorks for me.
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21:27:16jhMikeShcs: what do you have to do exactly?
21:27:51hcsput a single song (MP3) on the playlist, seek to nearly the end, let it go, only seems to happen with Fade on Stop/Pause enabled
21:28:19hcsseems consistent
21:29:12LearFade on stop disabled here...
21:29:48hcsyeah, with fade on stop disabled it seems fine, but we didn't have the pausing problem then, either (at least I didn't in several tests)
21:30:16amiconnI had the pausing problem with fade on stop disabled
21:30:26jhMikeSyes, got it.
21:30:27hcshmm, recently?
21:30:35amiconnSeveral times this evening
21:30:43amiconn(not updated to latest svn yet)
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21:31:00hcsgot anything else interesting enabled? auto bookmarking and cue sheets do their own pauses as well
21:31:08jhMikeSnope
21:31:12LearFreeze here too. And as an interesting side note, it enabled me to see the "stopped" state in the WPS. :)
21:31:13amiconnnope
21:31:45amiconnNo cue, not whatever-fade, feed or something
21:31:46hcswell I ran it several times and fade on stop caused the issue every time
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21:32:00amiconnJust plain playback via s/pdif out
21:32:03hcsand no fade on stop never caused it
21:32:49hcsthe pattern I see is a pause, a stop, a pause, and a clear-queue-and-stop
21:33:03jhMikeSI got it without a fade enabled
21:33:26jhMikeSwhere's the WPS hitting a clear-queue-and-stop?
21:33:28hcsthe first pause is from the fading, the second pause doesn't get processed for me but it's from the auto bookmarker
21:33:42hcsI mean the pattern of messages onto the queue
21:33:51jhMikeSyou mean Q_AUDIO_STOP: 1?
21:33:53hcs(from investiagtions in the simulator)
21:34:02hcs > | or something
21:34:13jhMikeSthats a send
21:34:15hcswith the bar?
21:34:22jhMikeSyes meaning "blocked"
21:34:26hcsoh
21:34:35hcsmisread, then
21:36:02chrisjs169just to confirm, distributing the Sansa original firmware in a decrypted form is illegal right?
21:36:33Bagderdistributing it in any shape is not permitted anyway
21:36:36nlschrisjs169: no more than in encrypted form
21:37:56chrisjs169Really? So even in the original encrypted form, distributing/mirroring it is illegal?
21:37:58pixelmamarkun: did something change with your commit to the gigabeat button map that could have an influence on language strings (like "Press buttonX to cancel)?
21:38:39nlsBagder: have you had any more time to look at the "none" lang file generation bug? (FS #6652)
21:39:19Bagderhm, I thought I had done that already...
21:39:30nlschrisjs169: it is copyrighted so distributing without permission is illegal
21:39:31markunpixelma: no idea, is there a problem with the language files?
21:39:32Bagderwell, I'm off for a week of vacation now so I'll check more after that
21:40:01nlsBagder: ah, thanks, I'd really like to get the lang cleanup comitted some time :-)
21:40:11pixelmamarkun: no, just want to know because I'm trying to sync the langV2 patch atm
21:40:12Bagderyeah, that'd be good
21:40:32markunpixelma: but maybe some of them should be changed, I didn't check
21:40:42pixelmamarkun: so in case there is something like that I could put it in there
21:41:02jhMikeShcs: you have a LOGFQUEUE dump handy?
21:41:40*ender` tries upgrading to gcc 4.1.2 on his server
21:41:47 Quit Meph ("CGI:IRC")
21:42:41hcsjhMikeS: rebuilding to generate one now
21:43:46jhMikeSoh, I could've done that, just wondered if one was available right now
21:43:48Learjhmikes: The fade on stop relies on pcm_is_paused to return proper values. Seems pcm isn't paused any longer, after a stop (if the stop was done before the pause done by the fade).
21:44:08chrisjs169nls: wow, guess I need to read more on copyright laws...
21:44:08hcsyeah, well I was doing it anyway
21:44:18Lear(See end of audio_stop_codec_flush())
21:44:50ender`(and if that ipod mini of my sister doesn't wake up until morning i'm proclaiming it dead)
21:45:21hcsjhMikeS: doesn't seem to freeze in the simulator anyway
21:45:39jhMikeSyes, I do see the reason to have pause while !playing
21:45:58jhMikeSor to just eradicate it
21:46:06pixelmamarkun: for example for deleting bookmarks it says "POWER = Delete"
21:47:02LearMaybe mp3_pause_done should check "playing" too?
21:47:10markunpixelma: I changed A and POWER everywhere
21:47:11jhMikeSLear: where's the fade on stop code you refer to...if this is WPS code, it'll be one of the few times I've even looked there.
21:47:33Leargui/gwps-common.c:fade()
21:47:47markunpixelma: so it should be done in the lang file as well
21:48:35nlschrisjs169: well, if they distribute it freely themselves, I'd say that it's very unlikely that they will come after you for redistributing it.
21:48:40pixelmamarkun: ok...
21:48:57amiconnPOWER = delete sounds nicer ;)
21:49:57markunyes, true
21:49:58nlspixelma: while you're in there, I saw a bunch of duplicate strings added in a semi recent commit, like e200: "blabla" h10: "blabla" where "blabla" is the same for both :-)
21:49:59jhMikeSfrankly, anything pausing after playback starts should pause playback
21:50:50*jhMikeS reads logs again on what was going on before
21:51:14nlspixelma: see here http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/apps/lang/english.lang?r1=13259&r2=13340&pathrev=13356
21:51:49hcsjhMikeS: if you just stick with clearing paused when you get the play message it should be fine
21:52:44amiconnnls: blabla is always the same, even across different languages ;)
21:53:14jhMikeSUm....didn't I?
21:53:32hcsyes, but you also don't set paused if !playing
21:53:45hcswhich seems to be the thing fouling up
21:53:52pixelmanls: thanks for the pointer... I wasn't yet there (have to edit english.lang by hand)
21:54:08hcs(assuming you intend to allow paused while !playing)
21:54:30*Nico_P just installed ccache... wow
21:54:42Bagderhehe
21:54:49Bagderwelcome to speedy compiles
21:55:07jhMikeSit was allowing that before
21:55:20hcsright, but it wasn't freezing at the end of play
21:55:31amiconnWell, if a whole lot changes (like a central header), ccache build should be a bit slower than without, shouldn't they?
21:57:18Bagderyes, but that bit isn't noticable
21:58:17hcsjhMikeS: actually, there are still issues if you clear paused on _AUDIO_PLAY, the pcmbuf_pause is still in effect
21:58:23jhMikeShmmm...it was stop->pause->play that was causing the problem before...(sorry for forgetting so soon)
21:58:27 Quit ColdSphinX^ ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
22:00
22:00:58Nico_Pin the output from ccache -s I have "unsupported compiler option 2050"... is that a problem ?
22:01:28Bagdernope
22:02:07Nico_Pwhat does it mean ?
22:02:26BagderI'm not sure really
22:02:32hcsjhMikeS: looks like the paused=false should go after the call to audio_stop_codec_flush(), so it will perform the unpause
22:02:55hcs*before
22:07:22hcsignore last message, I was in the wrong function
22:08:13jhMikeShcs: ok, yes, a pause before stop should not cause a problem as it did before so this fix should be redone to make sure the pause is undone after play starts
22:08:24jhMikeSok, ignored :)
22:08:39hcsheh, I think it is still valid, I was just in _stop instead of _start
22:08:52saratogahas anyone looked at the PP USB hardware yet?
22:08:58saratogaor is that part of the GSOC project
22:09:04jhMikeSI think everything is assumed audio_play starts playing and if a pause is in effect, it will be cleared
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22:09:43hcsjhMikeS: yeah, the call to audio_stop_codec_flush() will do that, but only if the paused flag is cleared going into it
22:09:59Bagdersaratoga: e200tool does upload usb code to the PP and runs it...
22:11:47saratogawow, didn't realize that had been figured out
22:12:05Bagdermrh...
22:12:27jhMikeSaudio_stop_playback does that already, so yeah, should be more careful :P
22:13:08 Quit Lear ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]")
22:13:46hcsI'm testing with the (!playing) check in paused removed and paused=false before the call to audio_stop_codec_flush(), seems to be working as expected
22:15:53jhMikeSSo, exactly what was the need for allowing pausing while !playing? I think it's rather unsavory unless pausing from stop mean basically starting playback paused with all buffering action occurring.
22:16:40hcsLear seemed to think that "The fade on stop relies on pcm_is_paused to return proper values. Seems pcm isn't paused any longer, after a stop (if the stop was done before the pause done by the fade)."
22:17:07hcsmaybe pcm_is_paused should also return true if !playing?
22:17:51hcsfeels like this should all be one state, rather than seperate flags for playing and paused
22:19:43hcsclearing the pause on play seems to be the minimal fix needed and avoids the larger question of whether paused and !playing are mutually exclusive
22:20:04 Part kaaloo
22:23:23jhMikeSit needn't be excusive but I think state transistion and what they mean need to be clearly defined. posting Q_AUDIO_STOP before playing isn't really the right thing either.
22:28:21amiconneumm
22:28:48amiconnBagder: A doc file vanished from the web server without being wikified :(
22:29:04amiconnhttp://www.rockbox.org/docs/mpeghdr.html
22:29:06amiconn404
22:30:00Bagderhttp://daniel.haxx.se/rockbox/mpeghdr.html
22:30:31Bagderbut now I'm really and truly off for a week
22:30:34 Quit Bagder ("*plopp*")
22:31:44DerPapstanybody in here knows if there is a maximum lenght of a wave file?
22:32:16DerPapstor underlining...
22:33:45DerPapsts/or/sorry for
22:34:05 Quit DerPapst ("So Long And Thanks For All The Fish!")
22:34:21 Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@pD9EB01B1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:35:12jhMikeSDepPapst: 4GB by way of the headers
22:36:16DerPapstah.
22:36:18DerPapstthanks.
22:37:04jhMikeSbut that's for a single RIFF chunk
22:37:52ender`ok, let's see if gcc 4.1.2 still produces those warnings
22:39:58hcsjhMikeS: want me to put up my fix-to-the-fix?
22:42:55jhMikeSif you want...I'm giving some things a hard look though. mp3_pause_done really needn't exist there (for SWCODEC) and it's not used on the sim so it doesn't lock.
22:43:15hcs'k
22:43:30jhMikeSI can use queue_send and the pause will be done by the time it returns
22:44:14ender`linuxstb: simulator builds on my server shouldn't produce warnings anymore, i upgraded the native gcc to 4.1.2
22:44:47linuxstb_ender': They were doing this morning - up to the point Bagder stopped sending SDL builds to you.
22:44:50hcsoh, so would you rather I just wait for you to put a more proper fix in?
22:45:06ender`linuxstb: i upgraded gcc 10 minutes ago :)
22:45:20linuxstb_ender`: And Bagder left 15 minutes ago....
22:45:34ender`:p
22:45:59ender`anyway, i tested a simulator build, and no warnings appeared this time
22:46:57 Join petur [0] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
22:47:07linuxstb_OK, so we're all good until one of the distros break our builds again...
22:47:43***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:47:47ender`well, 4.1.2 is considered testing in gentoo, but since my server isn't mission-critical, i won't mind even if something breaks
22:48:26jhMikeShcs: this loop with a sleep and check is a race condition that can break when scheduling order changes and it the entire reason for adding queue_send which makes these waits atomic
22:49:40 Quit bluebrother ("leaving")
22:51:14hcsin fade()?
22:51:39jhMikeSyes
22:52:00jhMikeSyou really don't know how many states have happened during the sleep do you?
22:52:28hcsme personally?
22:52:47ender`ok, i'm declaring my sister's ipod dead
22:53:14DerPapst:'(
22:53:28 Join donutman25 [0] (n=chatzill@24.244.160.233)
22:53:37jhMikeShcs: that was rhetorical :)
22:53:45DerPapstthen do some destructive RE on it :P
22:54:02ender`too bad it died 10 days after purchase, now she'll just get a new one instead of being able to get the money back and spending it on something better
22:54:08hcsjhMikeS: I figured, asking me about that code is pretty silly
22:55:34preglowdheh
22:55:57jhMikeSit's just that, with out atomic sending, during the sleep your variable could be reset that you keep polling and the loop won't break
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23:00
23:00:15hcsthat loops looks to have been the freeze issue, but I don't really know what it would be needed in the first place, only for a hardware decoder?
23:01:21 Quit thegeek (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:01:46 Join thegeek [0] (n=thegeek@s026b.studby.ntnu.no)
23:01:50jhMikeSfor now, if hw used queue_send it could stabilize it and maybe even reduce binary size. It reduced it on SWCODEC a good bit.
23:02:50*ender` yawns
23:03:38*jhMikeS realizes most of what he says here is very dry ;)
23:03:48hcsremoving that loop causes the volume to pop back up briefly when fading on my gigabeat
23:04:13jhMikeSdid you replace the queue_post call in audio_pause with queue_send?
23:05:07*amiconn doesn't even know what's the exact difference
23:05:20hcsno, trying it now
23:05:46jhMikeSqueue_send actually blocks a thread and the reply received is specific to that message
23:06:05amiconnhmm
23:06:23amiconnI though the whole queue stuff is for asynchronous messaging
23:06:28amiconn*thought
23:06:42amiconnIf you want it synchronous, just use callbacks
23:06:55jhMikeSwell, the receiver can block the thread until the message is considered processed
23:07:03amiconnBack in hwcodec-only times there was only queue_post...
23:07:06hcsyep, fading works right with queue_send
23:07:54amiconnIt just sounds complicated... i.e. not kiss
23:07:57jhMikeShow can callbacks help?
23:08:00amiconnMaybe it's not
23:08:09hcsif nothing else, it seems a bad name choice
23:08:34hcsunless post vs. send is a standard I'm not aware of
23:08:37jhMikeSqueue send also lets a return value be received from a thread processing a message
23:08:55*jhMikeS stole it from PostMessage, SendMessage in windows
23:08:56amiconnYes, but iiuc the point of queue_send is synchronous execution
23:09:32jhMikeSsort of, the processing thread can reply at any point once the requested message is considered processed by the receiver
23:09:34amiconn...and I can't see why you want the other thread to do it instead of just doing it yourself if you want it synchronous
23:09:55amiconn...i.e. just call a function.
23:10:03 Join krush1704 [0] (n=andikrus@p57BB4038.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
23:10:15jhMikeSwhen it only safe to have things processed by a certain thread
23:10:52amiconnWhich things might be like that (dual core issues aside)?
23:10:55jhMikeSand it must observe the order of request at the same time
23:11:03jhMikeSrecording
23:12:15amiconnhmm....
23:12:20jhMikeScontrol is precise on when threads are woken
23:12:53hcswell, good luck
23:12:56jhMikeSthe thread being woken *knows* the reply was for its particular instance of a message
23:12:57 Quit hcs ("CGI:IRC")
23:13:17amiconnI know that it's rather different... but hwcodec recording does fine without such complicated stuff
23:13:47amiconnqueue_send() & co are disabled for hwcodec afaics
23:16:05 Part krush1704
23:16:34amiconnWouldn't it be equally safe if the caller just does the work itself (via a function call), which blocks the other thread (e.g. via a mutex)?
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23:18:16*amiconn would like to understand this mechanism, and if/why it is necessary
23:18:37jhMikeSit could be if the worker thread is always using the mutex too, the sort of does that and allows the worker thread to run unblocked
23:19:32amiconnHow?
23:20:05jhMikeSyou could block both threads and deadlock using a mutex
23:20:07amiconnWhat happens if the caller uses queue_send() but the other thread is busy doing something else?
23:20:32amiconnThen the caller might wait forever if the other thread doesn't check its queue
23:21:01jhMikeSthe caller waits, the worker pulls the message wich shows a blocked thread, the worker processes then replies at any point it considers the request satisifed
23:21:01amiconnA thread cannot block itself, so how could it deadlock?
23:21:43jhMikeSthe worker could try to enter the lock when the the caller has it locked and might have to wait for something else
23:22:26amiconnhmmm
23:22:37jhMikeSthe mechanism is really, really simple and not a required overhead on all queues, it keeps the complication localized in the kernel instead of having to implement it all over the place
23:23:21 Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@c-71-205-145-105.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
23:23:22amiconnSynchronous queues could also deadlock though
23:24:16jhMikeSyes, if one thread waits on the other to proceed at something...that resume deadlock is just such a case
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23:27:43 Join Llorean [0] (n=Llorean@cpe-70-113-91-140.austin.res.rr.com)
23:27:59jhMikeSat least with some syncing, the worker can decide when it when a state transition is processed and the caller knows the state is what was asked at the time of return, just by queue_send and a queue_reply by the worker, nothing to it.
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23:50:25HellDragonlol
23:52:02markunHellDragon: why?
23:52:07 Join charkins [0] (n=casey@adsl-69-217-146-185.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net)
23:53:48Lloreanmarkun: Does the F40 have bootloader USB mode if you don't hold down a button? I thought it didn't unless you held down... um... menu?
23:54:44markunLlorean: the new bootloader enter USB mode if you insert the cable before booting
23:54:50LloreanAh
23:54:55LloreanI hadn't tried with the newest one.
23:54:56scorcheLlorean: do you think the 3.0 discussion should be better held at devcon rather than devcon-w?
23:55:20Lloreanscorche: I certainly would love for it to be held at Devcon, and then we can offer our own opinions on it after.
23:55:38 Join JdGordon [0] (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
23:56:46scorcheLlorean: then you wouldnt mind if i took it off the W page and put it on the euro?
23:57:05scorcheor, i suppose it isnt doing any harm there
23:57:29LloreanThe way I figure, even if they talk about it, we should too.
23:57:50LloreanEven if it's just for 5 minutes to say "Yeah, their plan looks good"
23:58:24scorchei just didnt see the point of adding it to ours, but not theirs
23:58:36LloreanHonestly, I didn't think of adding it to theirs.
23:58:47LloreanSince I wasn't going, it didn't even enter my mind.

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