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#rockbox log for 2008-03-06

00:02:46 Quit Lukstr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:02:52 Join Lukstr_ [0] (n=Lukstr@206-248-157-113.dsl.teksavvy.com)
00:03:08gevaertsSoap_: did you find some time to look into these voltage measurements we talked about a few days ago ?
00:03:10 Nick Lukstr_ is now known as Lukstr (n=Lukstr@206-248-157-113.dsl.teksavvy.com)
00:04:16Soap_I'm out of town - but willing to do it - but will need guidance on where to probe and under what conditions.
00:04:40Soap_We had only talked about the idea, not the implementation If I Recall Correctly.
00:05:27gevaertsIndeed. I believe you said you were going to see if it was at all possible first
00:06:14 Quit ComposerDude (Remote closed the connection)
00:06:20gevaertsThings like being able to run it while being open with the PCB accessible
00:07:31 Quit MethoS- ("Konversation terminated!")
00:07:52Soap_yea - I need to do that - I picked up the Fluke last night.
00:09:10 Quit Soap_ ()
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00:15:02*Bagder modified the front page
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00:15:22Bagderand now bedtime!
00:15:44gevaertsGood idea
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00:36:39stripwaxanyone (gevaerts?) know what the difference is between an ipod set to "enable disk use" and an ipod not set to "enable disk use" in iTunes, at the USB level?
00:37:58petur[00:16] <-- gevaerts has left this server ("Bagder is right").
00:38:19stripwaxso he has. anyone else happen to know?
00:38:36peturno ipoo here
00:39:39stripwaxsorry?
00:39:54 Join linuxstb_ [0] (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb)
00:40:21peturcan't help you, I'm no ipod user
00:40:43linuxstb_stripwax; All I know is that there is an "ipodcontrol.exe" service running, which is some way intereferes with the ipod's normal UMS behaviour. (on Windows, presumably something comparable on OS X)
00:40:55linuxstb_Or maybe ipodservice.exe
00:41:40linuxstb_So I think it's more a WIndows thing than USB thing.
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00:42:55stripwaxlinuxstb - oh, ugly. thanks
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00:46:28linuxstb_stripwax: Any reason you asked?
00:48:50stripwaxlinuxstb - not really. Was looking at the SoC list, read about the MTP suggestion, and then wondered how itunes prevents the disk showing up if it's using UMS under the hood.
00:50:02stripwax'not' enabling disk use also seems to remove the need to 'safely remove hardware' from Windows before removal.
00:50:18scorche|shthere are some folk around who know more specifics, i think...there is a person in #gsoc who has been working on itunes compatibility with wine who might know more...not sure
00:51:34stripwaxta
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00:55:09linuxstb_I very much doubt itunes still thinks a Rockbox'd ipod is an ipod (with our native UMS stack)
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00:59:19*stripwax agrees
01:00
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01:08:28*linuxstb_ doesn't understand how "support for syncing with itunes" can be implemented in Rockbox, apart from converting the itunesdb to Rockbox format, which can already be done
01:09:56LloreanWell, handling any steps we'd have to do to convince iTunes we are an iPod, right?
01:10:12linuxstb_Yes, but then what?
01:10:20LloreanI'd imagine that's it.
01:10:44*stripwax places bets
01:10:48LloreanSorry, I just wandered into the discussion.
01:10:51linuxstb_All that means is that itunes continues to update it's own database, obfuscate the filenames, and Rockbox continues to ignore it
01:11:07 Quit tessarakt ("Client exiting")
01:11:20linuxstb_I'm talking about the project idea on the SoC page
01:12:09LloreanAh yes
01:12:11***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:12:17 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
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01:12:51LloreanMight want to clarify that we have no interest in natively reading the iTunes database files instead of our own, and that it would really just be a matter of getting iTunes to recognize iPods (or any software USB device) as an iPod.
01:13:34linuxstb_But is that really a SoC project?
01:13:58linuxstb_Even if we did want Rockbox to mimic the Apple firmware (which I'm not convinced we do)
01:14:02LloreanI don't think "iTunes support" is by any stretch.
01:14:18 Quit Febs (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:14:50LloreanMTP support seems like it could be an SoC project.
01:15:04linuxstb_Yes, I agree with that.
01:15:24linuxstb_So no objection if I remove references to itunes from that proposal?
01:15:31LloreanNone at all by me
01:17:41linuxstb_If I'm reading the history of that page correctly, saratoga added it...
01:21:42 Quit mchua (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:27:29 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection)
01:30:01saratogalinuxstb_: I was thinking of convincing itunes that rockbox is an ipod, and then updating the iTunes database where appropriate (play counts, playlists, etc)
01:30:20linuxstb_How would that updating happen (and when?)
01:30:47linuxstb_I don't think I would like to see support for the itunesdb in the core Rockbox
01:30:58saratogapresumably we could sync the itunes database on USB insert and disconnect
01:31:17saratogait should be a fairly quick operation i'd think
01:31:46LloreanSo just taking the runtime data and sharing it between the two?
01:32:16saratogawell that and tricking itunes into syncing rockbox in the first place
01:32:34LloreanYeah
01:32:38saratogawhich presumably would involve some USB trickery, particularly if you wanted it to work with a non-apple player
01:32:39linuxstb_The user can simply boot into the Apple firmware if he/she wants to sync with itunes though.
01:33:10Lloreanlinuxstb_: We could add an option in the menus to use emergency disk mode instead of Rockbox USB even.
01:33:46saratogai'm mostly just thinking about syncing playlists, playcounts, album art, etc with various media players
01:34:25 Part toffe82
01:34:29saratogai don't have any particular interest in itunes per se
01:34:37linuxstb_I just don't think itunes support can be added in a clean way. The itunesdb is also a moving target - so someone will keep needing to fix it when Apple release new versions of itunes...
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01:34:39LloreanI'd stick with keeping the focus on MTP then.
01:35:05LloreanAs far as "iTunes Support" goes, I don't think we really need to do any more than we do now.
01:35:16linuxstb_We couldn't do any less... ;)
01:35:24saratogalinuxstb_: its a moving target for new ipods, but old ones still work
01:35:41saratogaso theres still support for Ipod 1G databases in there somewhere
01:36:02saratogawhich presumably has been static since 2003 when Apple stopped updating the 1G firmware
01:36:23linuxstb_Yes, there is that - we're now only supporting "obsolete" ipods...
01:37:44linuxstb_Maybe split the proposal into two distinct projects then - MTP support and "integration with itunes"
01:38:09 Nick JdGordon| is now known as JdGordon|uni (i=768a984c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-36663dc1b30f8b51)
01:38:41saratogaif you want to edit it, feel free
01:38:58saratogai was mostly just thinking that iTunes support alone probably wasn't enough to warrent a summer's worth of work
01:40:03 Quit petur ("Zzzz")
01:40:34JdGordon|unijhMikeS: whats the mpegplayer problem?
01:40:48*stripwax adds cobra mk3 vertices to cube.rock
01:40:56linuxstb_It's not an mpegplayer problem - it's a general problem with colours in lists in plugins - they don't work...
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01:41:40SoapHotel<saratoga> i'm mostly just thinking about syncing playlists, playcounts, album art, etc with various media players
01:42:12SoapHotel1 - Isn't iTunes album art embedded? 2 - Aren't iTunes smart playlists scripts which get executed on the iPod?
01:42:23linuxstb_No and No (IIUC)
01:42:37*JdGordon|uni sees colour in the lists
01:42:50linuxstb_According to jhMikeS they're not the right colours...
01:42:53LloreanSoapHotel: I think that for #2, they're scripts executed by iTunes when syncing. The "smart" playlist is actually static until next sync, afaik
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01:43:23linuxstb_Yes, that's my understanding (from what I've read/been told)
01:43:27scorche|shSoapHotel: for number 1, itunes extracts it out of the tags when syncing iirc
01:44:24linuxstb_Yes, I think there's an album-art database storing uncompressed pre-scaled bitmaps.
01:44:27SoapHotelThat's what I get for never using iTunes, but from what people had said (raved) about iTunes you could make a smart playlist "Songs from 1996 I haven't heard in six months" and it would be good forever. Really not all that impressive if it is nothing more than a static playlist which only gets updated on sync.
01:44:56SoapHotelyou don't have to tab-complete me as SoapHotel - Soap is fine.
01:44:58LloreanEverything i've heard suggests they're only smart on sync.
01:45:08HodappI am too lazy to make playlists.
01:45:13LloreanWhich basically puts our database a step ahead of their smart playlists
01:45:26scorche|shSoapHotel: this is 2 keystrokes... Soap is 4
01:45:35scorche|shplus colon
01:45:36linuxstb_Apart from the lack of UI to create them...
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01:45:45LloreanTrue
01:45:51saratogasmart playlists work on the PC too though right?
01:45:57saratogathats probably worth something to a lot of people
01:46:25scorche|shi have heard smart playlists as an often asked question when introducing itunes power users to rockbox
01:46:30linuxstb_Yes, lots of things work in itunes, but are only partially (or not at all) supported on the ipod. Crossfade for example.
01:46:36scorche|shthat wouldnt be a bad SoC project...
01:46:53stripwaxogg vorbis, even/
01:47:01LloreanImproved playlisting and database support might be nice.
01:47:10*scorche|sh nods
01:47:22LloreanFor example, being able to define "smart playlists" within tagnavi that are like, "the 100 songs I haven't heard in the longest time". Specific numbers of songs, basically
01:47:34LloreanAnd, folders and EXTM3U data in .m3u files
01:47:35*linuxstb_ just wants some students who have a clue, and doesn't care what they do
01:47:43*Llorean will settle for that. :)
01:48:00LloreanWell, I do care slightly
01:48:08LloreanI want it to be something we'd actually like to commit when it's done. :)
01:48:12scorche|shLlorean: want to add that to the wiki then? ;)
01:48:13saratogaabout students, are we going to try and advertise any?
01:48:34saratogai was thinking of posting to some mailing lists and such at universities where i know people
01:48:50Lloreanscorche|sh: I'll try to remember to do it when I can put together an actual "project"-scope description of it.
01:48:53 Quit JdGordon|uni ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
01:49:13scorche|shsaratoga: well, i am doing it in a non-annoying way in #gsoc when a suitable student asks about projects with certain interests which are applicable
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01:50:26 Quit stripwax ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
01:50:35linuxstb_We should replace the Rockbox splash logo with an SoC advert...
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01:52:02scorche|shupon announcment of us being accepted, maybe...
01:52:04saratogalinuxstb_: i like that
01:52:09*scorche|sh adds an e
01:54:05saratogawould adding a container interface to rockbox be a good project?
01:54:20saratogai've been wondering about supporting things like mp3 in MP4 container and MKA
01:55:30linuxstb_Is that actually useful? I can see that it's nice in theory, but is it worth the complication? (and does anyone actually do that kind of thing?)
01:55:59*linuxstb_ doesn't want to end up with ffmpeg...
01:56:15saratogaeventually we might want that for mpegplayer
01:57:22LloreanThere's a couple ideas for SoC
01:57:29LloreanExpanding jpegviewer into "imageviewer"
01:57:39LloreanAnd expanding mpegplayer to supporting one, or more, added codecs.
01:57:56linuxstb_Not really - mpegplayer need the audio/video codecs optimised together (sharing IRAM for example), I can't see how you can split them and use arbitrary combinations of codecs.
01:59:12 Quit midkay_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:59:22saratogaI think in the long term iram sharing isn't going to matter too much since either we'll have so much we don't care (AMS chips) or fast enough caching we don't need it
02:00
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02:02:56linuxstb_Maybe, but we haven't reached that stage yet - the vast majority of current targets are still very limited.
02:03:58saratogatrue but the vast majority of targets are always going to be MPEG2 only
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02:04:26saratogaH.264 is probably always going to be reserved for the Gigabeats and DSP chips on the Zen or whatever
02:04:38saratogaassuming we get it implemented at all
02:05:00saratogathat reminds me, does the Zen or D2 use IRAM?
02:05:06LloreanThere's still MPEG-4
02:05:16LloreanOr rather ASP
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03:31:39countrymonkeyI was talking with my friend and our discussions turned to czech (and he is a nttive speaker of czech.) Because of the topic of conversation, I said "Ano" (yes in czech, I learned that through czech.lang). He said that was slovak and the word for yes in czech was "tak". He also said the word "nee" was slovak, although he gave no translation. Then he said "zapnuto" (on, according to czech.lang) was actually
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03:32:07 Quit midgey ()
03:35:29TomAI want to know how I can post another good encoding program for the mpegplayer plugin, it is SuperC. It can encode into and from many different formats with an easy to use interface.
03:36:44countrymonkeyGet wiki access. If you got some, you should be able to just add to the wiki.
03:36:56TomAHow do I do that?
03:37:55countrymonkeyThere is a link somewhere called "register yourself". Look around; it has been a while since I did it. I think it is on the main wiki page. Click that link, follow the directions, and report back here; I can give you write permission.
03:38:06TomAok
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03:39:08linuxstbTomA: Isn't that just another front-end to ffmpeg?
03:39:09LloreanTomA: Are you referring to SUPER?
03:39:33LloreanSUPER isn't a front end. It's a hackish program put together containing bits of ffmpeg, DLLs from other programs, and basically a whole mess of copyright infringing, from what I've read.
03:40:37LloreanOr rather, isn't "just" a front end.
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03:41:21*linuxstb was struggling to find out some details on the Super (C) website...
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04:00
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04:08:38TomAI registered can someone authorize me or whatever to post wikis
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04:20:23linuxstbTomA: IMO, that site is such a nightmare that I wouldn't want to advertise it and make people jump through their hoops... I can't even seem to download it (with firefox)
04:25:21TomAsorry if you posted a while back I was looking around the site
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04:28:47TomAIt took some time for me to find the link to the download but here is the best way I can give directions,
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04:29:40TomAfirst go to the top of the page move over freeware/superc/then click download
04:30:29TomAOn the page that comes up scroll all the way to the bottom and click "start downloading superc"
04:31:00linuxstbExactly... Why do they need to do that?
04:31:10TomAon the next page right near the top in blue is download an use click that
04:31:18TomAdon't ask me
04:31:55TomAthen at the bottom of the next page is the link to download the superc setup file
04:33:30TomAanyway thats what I use, it can use directshow so i've used it with divx files and had exelent results
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04:34:14john_hey all
04:34:20TomAwuzup
04:34:55TomAcan you authorize me, so I can post?
04:35:07john_problems....i had a macpod and formated it with gparted fat32, now the rockbox utility say's no ipod found
04:35:09LloreanTomA: Is there a list of the licenses for the various codecs somewhere on the site?
04:35:10john_any idea?
04:35:24Lloreanjohn_: You should follow the manual conversion page, it's not as simple as *just* reformatting.
04:35:32TomAnever looked don't know
04:35:33john_i did do that
04:35:56john_it doesn't say how to format it to fat32 under linux
04:36:03Lloreanjohn_: Does it boot the Apple OS?
04:36:17john_yes
04:36:24LloreanTomA: Well, it's rather important. We shouldn't put links to things with questionable license adherence on the wiki
04:36:30linuxstbLlorean: It seems that they are complying with the law - I managed to download it, and the installation program says that the included binaries (ffmpeg etc) are unmodified and released under the GPL. The ffmpeg devs seem to be happy with that.
04:36:31Lloreanjohn_: Have you tried the manual installation instructions?
04:36:40linuxstbTomA: Is "A" your full surname?
04:36:41john_yes, i put the partition table on
04:37:02john_newfs_msdos -F32 -v iPod /dev/rdiskNs2
04:37:14Lloreanlinuxstb: I was more concerned about the inclusion of some of the DLLs. I'd read that they're taken from things like WMP. But I'm not really certain.
04:37:16john_that command is not for linux so the only way i know how to format is through gparted
04:37:32Lloreanjohn_: I didn't ask if you put the partition table on. I asked if you'd tried the manual rockbox install.
04:37:35TomAno, Arnold, I just put A for short, and check their webpage under company/legal notices
04:37:37linuxstbLlorean: OK, I've no idea about that...
04:37:45john_yes
04:37:56Lloreanjohn_: So what does iPodPatcher say?
04:38:10Lloreanlinuxstb: *shrugs* Dunno. if it seems okay, I guess go with it.
04:38:10john_llorean : whenever i run ./ipodpatcher is says cannot find ipod
04:38:35Lloreanjohn_: Can you paste the partition table to a pastebin somewhere?
04:39:32john_to a pastebin?
04:39:50linuxstbjohn_: Have you seen this page? http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodManualRestore
04:40:09TomAThe source code hasn't been modified it says it is all legal under the GNU liscense for free software
04:40:45linuxstbTomA: I'm happy with that, but the rules for the wiki (on the registration page you just visited) say your wiki name MUST BE your full first name and surname.
04:40:47john_no i have not tried that way yet...
04:40:50john_let me give that a try thanks
04:41:02TomAMy B how do I fix that
04:41:15linuxstbjohn_: Before you do that, does your ipod boot normally into the Apple firmware?
04:41:49john_yes
04:41:53john_it does
04:43:04linuxstbAnd you're running ipodpatcher as root?
04:43:22john_yes
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04:44:57linuxstbOK, then follow Llorean's advice and show us what your partition table looks like...
04:45:04TomAGottoGo
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04:45:33john_john@john-desktop:~/Desktop$ sudo dd if=mbr-4g-20gb.bin of=/dev/sdd3
04:45:33john_1+0 records in
04:45:33john_1+0 records out
04:45:33DBUGEnqueued KICK john_
04:45:33john_512 bytes (512 B) copied, 3.9757e-05 seconds, 12.9 MB/s
04:45:44john_i just wrote the table to my ipod
04:45:46linuxstbThat's your mistake - it should be /dev/sdd
04:46:01john_john@john-desktop:~$
04:46:01linuxstbThen unplug your ipod, and reattach it.
04:46:05 Quit Bjoern-Erik (Success)
04:46:29john_but when i do >df it shows up as /dev/sdd3
04:46:38john_dev/sdd3
04:47:01john_got it sdd is the harddrive
04:47:05john_sdd3 is the 3rd partition
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04:47:16linuxstbIndeed.
04:48:33john_now i did this
04:48:35john_john@john-desktop:~/Desktop$ dd if=Firmware-10.3.1.1 of=/dev/sdd1
04:48:35john_maddler: writing to `/dev/sdd1': No space left on device
04:48:35john_63+0 records in
04:48:35john_62+0 records out
04:48:35***Alert Mode level 1
04:48:35john_31744 bytes (32 kB) copied, 0.396261 seconds, 80.1 kB/s
04:48:36***Alert Mode level 2
04:48:36john_john@john-desktop:~/Desktop$
04:49:00john_should there be 3 partitions on my ipod
04:49:21linuxstbDid you unplug and reattach your ipod?
04:49:37john_i just did
04:49:48linuxstbNow you should see 2 partitions.
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04:50:19john_alright
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04:57:35john__ok
04:57:44john__now that i have updated everything to i disconnect it
04:57:45john__?
04:58:38***Alert Mode OFF
04:59:08linuxstbYou've dd'ed the firmware and formatted the second partition as FAT32?
04:59:35john__yes,
04:59:52john__mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/sde2
05:00
05:00:10john__that is the command i did and it paused for a minute and then when to a prompt
05:00:11linuxstbThen yes, you can disconnect. Your ipod will then update it's firmware in flash, and you'll need to connect it to a charger whilst it does that.
05:00:18john__ok
05:00:25john__do i need to unmount the volume?
05:00:44linuxstbYes, if it's mounted.
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05:00:56john__it doesn't show up on my desktop
05:01:31linuxstbIf you just type "mount" by itself at the command-line it will tell you if it's mounted.
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05:02:31john__ok it flashed and now its at the menu
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05:03:46john__that worked, rockbox is installing now
05:03:50john__thank you very much!
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