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#rockbox log for 2008-03-07

00:00:54 Quit gevaerts ("sleeping time")
00:02:04peturbah, I was one word wrong, the 1gb sandisk doesn't comply
00:03:18amiconnehhhh...
00:03:44amiconnOur 'force pio mode' setting checks a rather arbitrary bit...
00:03:53amiconnIt's doing so for years though
00:04:11amiconn4 years to be precise
00:05:10peturall these feature bits are 'not to be depended on'
00:05:25peturso what do we use.... lousy spec
00:06:24 Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
00:06:29amiconnAccording to the ata specs those words are valid if the indicator bits are set approrpiately
00:06:46peturfor pio modes we should look at word 64
00:07:04amiconnWord 64 lists the modes, but not whether modes can be set
00:07:27petur'Word 64: Advanced PIO transfer modes supported'
00:07:32amiconnModes can always be set, hence there is no indicator bit for that, and Linus used a bit that's (nearly) guaranteed to be 1
00:10:07peturso we should check the indicator bits before usin g words 82-84
00:11:02amiconnPerhaps. But that a-data card does indicate words 82..84 as valid
00:11:05 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
00:11:17peturyes (I was just typing that)
00:11:29amiconnWords 85..87 are indicated as invalid though
00:12:23peturmaybe nobody bothers to use advanced powermanagement...
00:12:27 Join Zarggg [0] (n=zarggg@216-15-73-111.c3-0.eas-ubr6.atw-eas.pa.cable.rcn.com)
00:12:59*petur is doing a battery benchmark on his H10 with and without to see the difference
00:13:45amiconnH10 is probably a bad target for that test
00:13:57peturcontrary
00:14:02amiconnThose microdrive do at least partially implement the cf standard
00:14:26amiconnAnd on cf apm probably doesn't matter because cf power management is pretty much automatic
00:14:27peturI am testing the patch that disables powermanagement for CF
00:14:48peturso I want to know if this influences H10
00:15:04peturbecause the microdrive reports as CF
00:15:07amiconnIt could also influence the mini, or the mrobe100, you never know
00:15:30amiconnNo, it doesn't
00:15:57peturstill need a nano owner to test the modified soft_reset
00:16:06amiconnThe CF signature is word 0 == 0x848A according to the standard
00:16:25amiconnAnd the H10's drive reports 0x0C5A
00:16:47peturI mean the new check which looks at the sector count
00:16:52*amiconn wants to see this cf check removed
00:16:55 Join csc` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc)
00:17:08petursure.... me too
00:17:38peturwhy do you think I bother trying and testing stuff?
00:18:07amiconnAt least in the form of checking words which aren't actually related to the problematic features
00:18:58amiconnBtw, all the CF cards in the list either report to support the CFA feature set (word 83 bit 2), or have an invalid word 83
00:19:15amiconnThat also applies to the darn microdrives though
00:20:29 Join wvmac [0] (n=wvmac@c-71-61-88-3.hsd1.wv.comcast.net)
00:21:19 Quit OlivierBorowski (Remote closed the connection)
00:23:22 Join DerDome [0] (n=DerDome@dslb-082-083-226-208.pools.arcor-ip.net)
00:24:41amiconnThere must be a way to reliably distinguish CF and HDD. The CF standard also specifies PIO modes 5 and 6. The ATA standard does not (not even ATA-7)
00:25:37 Quit ender` (" Top reason why compilers are like women: Miss a period and they go crazy")
00:27:29peturhear hear
00:27:42peturyou wanted the cf check removed...
00:28:09amiconnI still want that if at all possible
00:28:48*petur has an attention problem, looking at a documentary of The Smiths at the same time ;)
00:29:47 Quit roolku ()
00:30:39*scorche|sh wonders if petur is a shoplifter
00:31:26peturno, but devconpub must have caused some panic in the streets of london :p
00:31:38 Quit Arathis ("Bye, bye")
00:31:48 Quit n1s ()
00:33:07amiconnBtw, what's the effect of the apm feature set operation failing?
00:33:12 Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("This computer has gone to sleep")
00:33:27peturABRT
00:33:38petur0x04
00:34:41 Quit ol_schoola ()
00:35:05amiconneh?
00:35:49peturyes, and SENSE returns 0x1F (unsupported)
00:36:34 Quit tessarakt ("Client exiting")
00:38:25amiconnhmm
00:38:51petururgh wrong. it is 'Data Transfer Error / Aborted Command'
00:40:15*petur moves closer to a power socket. laptop and target both low on battery
00:41:14 Join spiorf [0] (n=spiorf@host76-226-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
00:41:45 Quit herrwaldo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:48:22peturwhy doesn't features[] use a bitmask iso a bitnumber
00:52:02amiconnCompactness
00:52:33amiconnRight now one array element is 4 bytes, i.e. a power of 2
00:52:59peturI mean use 0x08 and not 3
00:53:05amiconnIf you relace the bit number (char) with a mask (necessarily unsigned short), it becomes 5 bytes
00:53:27 Quit spiorf (Remote closed the connection)
00:53:33amiconnAnd since that's not a power of 5, addressing array elements needs more code
00:53:38peturwould have been easier to check the validate bits at the same time
00:53:40amiconnEhh, a power of 2
00:53:58peturah well
00:54:02 Quit kies (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:54:13amiconnThat whole check should probably be redesigned based on those new findings
00:54:42 Quit Soap_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:54:58 Join kies [0] (n=kies@adsl-76-199-14-32.dsl.chmpil.sbcglobal.net)
00:56:08 Quit wvmac ("Lost terminal")
00:56:18amiconnpetur: What about using the validity bits for these feature *settings* (i.e. word 87 bits 15 and 14) for deciding whether to refrain from setting apm?
00:56:51*petur checks those values for hdd
00:57:15amiconnThe hdds all have valid word 87
00:57:23amiconn_including_ the microdrives
00:57:29peturhmmm
00:57:48*amiconn wants more values
00:58:29amiconnI only have one single CF card - an 1GB Sandisk Ultra II
00:59:17peturwhat about all those dumps in the wiki?
00:59:24amiconnHmm, the Sandisk Ultra II 2GB in the list indicates word 87 as valid
01:00
01:00:09petursame as my sandisk 1GB
01:00:13amiconnThose are about a dozen cards and harddisks. Also, for most of them the "pwrmgt fails" column just says "?"
01:01:18 Join japc [0] (n=japc@bl7-242-163.dsl.telepac.pt)
01:02:31peturI wonder if the description of bit 3 of word 85 is a typo: talks about 'supported', not 'enabled'
01:03:24amiconnI am wondering the same, although ata-4, ata-5 and ata-7 all say "supported"
01:03:26peturthose hdd dumps were taken after the set_features was executed :/
01:03:38amiconnYes of course
01:03:57peturalso, word 85 is 0 for those sandisk cards...
01:04:21amiconnThe bootloader already does that (how else would it load rockbox to do the dump?)
01:04:29*petur looks for a bit that must be set
01:05:02*amiconn curses thread.c, especially sleep_core()
01:06:01amiconnThat function is one big FOREVER loop - and putting my alignment-changing 'nop's in there causes gcc to shuffle instructions all over
01:09:27*petur gives transcend x133 2GB a strange look. word 85 = 1 (supports smart???)
01:09:28amiconnSo all I could find out is that the alignment problem is within that function, because correcting the alignment before this call makes it work, and after that call it fails (sleep_core() is inlined within switch_thread())
01:09:58amiconnpetur: It doesn't. Word 85 isn't valid according to word 87
01:10:36peturhmmm my cf spec says nothing about word 87 :(
01:10:50peturoh it does
01:11:11peturthat stuff should be in nice tables, not text
01:12:19 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
01:12:25 Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
01:12:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:13:14*amiconn wonders where the threading guru is when he needs him
01:13:16amiconnjhMikeS: ping
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01:14:25 Quit tvelocity__ (Remote closed the connection)
01:14:53 Join Jessica464 [0] (n=Jessica@adsl-75-19-179-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net)
01:15:13Jessica464Hey folks. Anyone still have an old Archos Jukebox?
01:16:03 Join cool_walking_ [0] (n=root@203-59-129-195.perm.iinet.net.au)
01:16:31pixelmasome do, just ask your actual question and see (have a bit patience too)
01:17:17Jessica464I dropped 2500mAh niMH in my jukebox, but the battery life is like 25% what it used to be? any clues? The battery change happened at the same time i installed rockbox.
01:17:48Jessica464i figured with 2500mAh the thing would run foreever
01:18:23Jessica464Also, anyone replaced the 20GB HD with a newer 160GB? any issues doing so?
01:19:17Jessica464thx for the tip, pix. Unfortunately, I catch my flight for Shenzhen in a few hours. At the mo, it seems like it is gonna be a silent flight.
01:20:32amiconnDid you try charging the batteries in an external charger and check runtime?
01:20:51pixelmaalso those high capacity cells often suffer from high self discharge (there is a new generation out there that doesn't)
01:20:57amiconnAlso, what jukebox is that, Player/Studio or Recorder?
01:20:58Jessica464doing that now, but I don't know if they'll fully cook b4 i need to leave.
01:21:04Jessica464recorder
01:21:36scorche|shJessica464: i have replaced it with a 160, but keep in mind that unless you enable LBA48 support, you will only get 128/137 GiB/GB
01:21:39amiconnCould be that our charging algorithm doesn't fully charge the batteries. What rockbox build are you running?
01:22:10Jessica464hmmm... not sure on the build. lemme check
01:23:53 Quit DerDome ("Leaving.")
01:25:30Jessica464the date is 7/24/07
01:25:35Jessica464on my RB build
01:25:42 Join WatchDragon [0] (n=a@ip68-4-103-162.oc.oc.cox.net)
01:26:23amiconnUmm, that's old.... although, it's at least not the 2.5 release from the rockbox stone age
01:26:34Jessica464are niMH ok, or should I be using nicad?
01:26:51amiconnRegarding the high self-discharge rate of high capacity NiMH - I'd recommend everyone to use the new generation cells instead. They are "only" avaliable as 2100mAh cells (Sanyo: 2000mAh), but lengths better than ordinary high capacity cells
01:26:52jhMikeSamiconn: yez
01:27:01scorche|shJessica464: NiMH only
01:27:25Jessica464ok scor
01:27:26*amiconn experienced ordinary high capacity cells emptyig themselves within 1..2 days
01:28:01Jessica464i'm getting 2~3 hours from these 2500mAHs!!!!
01:28:09 Part toffe82
01:28:34amiconnDirectly after charging?
01:28:39scorche|shthat definitely seems off if they are brand new...can you get longer runtimes by putting in your old betteries?
01:29:05Jessica464amicon, yes
01:29:22Jessica464scor: they were new when i put them in the archos
01:29:32Jessica464i had to recycle the old ones
01:30:33scorche|shJessica464: well, it *could* be other things as well, but testing different batteries is the easiest thing to check
01:30:54Jessica464yeah, shame i have only a couple of hours...
01:31:04Jessica464and no other batteries!
01:32:22*jhMikeS read what amiconn said and experiences a 'wtf' moment
01:33:01amiconnjhMikeS: Regarding what part?
01:33:17scorche|shthe charging algorithym?
01:33:28peturJessica464: get some non-rechargeables at the airport?
01:33:49scorche|shJessica464: and if you get non-rechargables, make sure not to accidently charge them ;)
01:33:55jhMikeSamiconn: putting nops in sleep_core having the effect you reported. I think at first commit the function was in IRAM.
01:33:57Jessica464pet: like alcaline?
01:33:57pixelmathat could be dangerous if one then inserts a charger...
01:33:59peturscorche|sh: the threading problem
01:34:07scorche|shah
01:34:37saratogajhMikeS: someone suggested you knew something about why the backlight might be very slow to active lately?
01:34:38amiconnI tracked down the location where the PP5002 obviously originates, but unfortunately it's not very precise, because I cannot put nops *into* sleep_core() without making gcc shuffling instructions all around
01:35:11amiconnBut why does *code* alignment have an effect at all? And why there?
01:35:41amiconnpetur, Jessica464: Alkalines shouldn't be used in the archos
01:36:07jhMikeSsaratoga: it's the priority and a side effect of actually fixing the scheduling. I'd suggest just making it a normal UI prority thread for the time being.
01:36:12Jessica464ami, then what non-rechareables should I use?
01:36:37peturJessica464: seems I gave wrong advice then...
01:36:48amiconnJessica464: None. The archos jukeboxes are designed to run from NiMH. Other batteries will either work poorly, or not at all
01:36:58saratogajhMikeS: how are thread priorities adjusted? I'd like to play with this a bit
01:37:15Jessica464ok. so it's rechargeables or nuthin
01:37:49Jessica464anyone know what voltage and current I should be charging the archos with?
01:37:55scorche|shamiconn: i would think lithium would sate the power demands just fine, no?
01:38:03jhMikeSamiconn: that's weird. Now that you found that I'm brainstorming for an answer on that.
01:38:05amiconnMost probably not
01:38:22scorche|shwhy not?
01:38:41jhMikeSsaratoga: the create_thread call in backlight.c inside IF_PRIO()
01:38:50amiconnscorche: The circuitry is designed for the typical openloop voltage of NiMH cells, i.e. 4x 1.2V. Non-rechargeables start at 1.5V
01:39:07jhMikeSsaratoga: use PRIORITY_USER_INTERFACE
01:39:13amiconnAnd the jukeboxes need cells with a very low impedance, because of the high hdd spinup current
01:39:39scorche|shyes...the lithium should be fine with regards to impedance
01:39:55saratogajhMikeS: instead of "PRIORITY_SYSTEM"?
01:40:16jhMikeSsaratoga: yes
01:40:22Jessica464lithium wont charge properly in a device designed to charge nimh, will it?
01:40:37scorche|shJessica464: no...i am talking just about usage
01:40:57saratogaputting lithium in anything but a lithium charger will probably result in an on fire battery
01:41:06Jessica464ok
01:41:30Jessica464so, for niMH in an archos rockbox, what voltage and current should I charge it at?
01:44:03 Join csc`` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc)
01:44:13saratogajhMikeS: that fix seems to have worked fairly well
01:44:14amiconnWhen charging them in the device, you should either use the original charger (9V unregulated), or a *regulated* 12V charger. Less won't fully charge the batteries, more will produce unnecessary heat and eventually break the charging circuit
01:44:15*jhMikeS has to get this priority inheritance done and it's the hardest piece and most time-consuming of programming undertaken yet but what's done works extremely well (and as a bonus alot of kernel stuff is more simple)
01:44:22saratogatakes about half a second to come on now
01:44:28saratogainstead of the 2-5 seconds before
01:44:45amiconnIf you charge them externally, use a proper NiMH charger
01:45:47Jessica464ami, but at what current?
01:45:54jhMikeSsaratoga: with the changes I've made (somewhat of a 2nd-pass rewrite), even at PRIORITY_SYSTEM, the backlight delay is hardly perceivable :)
01:46:43 Quit csc` (Nick collision from services.)
01:46:46 Nick csc`` is now known as csc` (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc)
01:46:48*amiconn managed to track down the crash location a bit further
01:46:50amiconnjhMikeS: The problem must be somewhere between start of sleep_core(), and the core_sleep() call (line 1466)
01:47:08amiconncore_sleep() is asm, so I could sneak in 2 extra nops without gcc going wild
01:48:41saratogajhMikeS: these are going to be committed relatively soon?
01:48:58saratogai'm wondering if its worth working around this issue in SVN in the meantime
01:49:33amiconnThere are 55 instrucitons between the 2 known points
01:49:56jhMikeSsaratoga: I'd just commit it. Really I think all UI-based threads should be equal since they're expected to response well to input.
01:50:08saratogaok will do
01:50:34jhMikeSamiconn: you put nops both at the start and the end?
01:50:41amiconnyes
01:51:16jhMikeSthat code didn't even exist for PP5002 at the initial commit though. that only came with finishing dual-core support there and the same problem creeps in even if it's the C reference version.
01:52:04amiconnI first tested the effect of a varying number of nops in main(). With my current build, 0 or 3 nops work fine, 1 or 2 nops make it crash. The effects are modulo-4
01:52:38amiconnThen I put 4 nops into main() - everything ok. Then I started moving 2 of the 4 nops around the code.
01:52:43Jessica464ami: do you know the current i should be charging this thing at?
01:53:21amiconnIf I moved them too far to the end, it was crashing, moved them back to the beginning, worked again etc (bisecting)
01:53:37amiconnJessica464: The current will be determined by the device.
01:53:55amiconnYOur charger should be capable of providing at least 400mA
01:54:12amiconnAll this must be somewhere in the wiki
01:54:28Jessica464err... i no longer have the original charger, and there is no spec on the archos itself.
01:55:16amiconnjhMikeS: I finally found that putting the nops *directly* before the sleep_core() call in switch_thread(), it works, and if I put them directly after that call, it crashes
01:55:24amiconn(sleep_core() is inlined)
01:55:30Jessica464is there a wiki for the archos?
01:56:11amiconnAnd the tiny bit further I got is that if I put the nops into core_sleep() it still crashes, so the problem must be before that
01:57:44 Quit BlakeJohnson86 ("Leaving.")
01:59:07peturamiconn: uploaded a new CF patch that should be committable, feel free to comment (no hurry) http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8644
01:59:15amiconnjhMikeS: http://pastebin.ca/931215 is the whole, inlined sleep_core(). The problem must be somewhere between the beginning and 0x4404c
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02:00
02:00:07peturamiconn: my mk8007gah still reports powermanagement in word 85 even if not set, so looks good :)
02:00:32amiconnThe bootloader would set it...
02:00:49peturargh... right :/
02:01:13peturwill play with that tomorrow - bedtime now
02:01:21 Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
02:02:55jhMikeSamiconn: why do you cut it off at the nops in core_sleep?
02:03:04amiconn?
02:03:49jhMikeS0x4404c is the first nop of core_sleep assembly
02:03:53amiconnyes
02:04:27amiconnAnd if I put the 2 extra nops there (my only chance to put extra nops into sleep_core()), it still crashes, so the problem must be before that
02:05:17 Quit Jessica464 ("http://irc.netsplit.de/")
02:06:08amiconn...becasue my system of bisecting was designed so that the build crashes if the nops come after the alignment sensitive code, and does not crash if they come before that code
02:07:22 Quit jurrie__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:07:47*amiconn realises that he can put the testing nops a little bit further up
02:07:48jhMikeSthis is twilight zone stuff. 1) Why only PP5002 2) why there of all places
02:08:52jhMikeShmmm...one thing happens there that happens nowhere else
02:10:27jhMikeSit's the place where context is whatever context exists at the time no threads are actually scheduled but it's running in the context of the last thread that became non-runnable
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02:11:07amiconneh....
02:11:13amiconnSeems we're lucky
02:11:28amiconnThe problem seems to be *in* core_sleep() itself
02:12:25amiconnNow I'm moving the nops intsruction-by-instruction
02:16:40jhMikeSusage of str<cond>b instead of str<cond> to the processor control reg? <== big guess
02:17:35*amiconn suspects that one instructions and skips a few to hopefully get a result earlier
02:18:10amiconnDoes the OF uses 32 bit accesses?
02:18:13amiconn*use
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02:18:55*jhMikeS is checking a disassembly if he can locate it
02:22:02amiconnOF uses either STRH or STR
02:22:14amiconnSome places also have 3 NOPs before *and* 3 NOPs after t
02:22:19amiconn*it
02:22:39amiconnActually I checked 2nd Gen ROM code
02:22:42jhMikeSThe pipeline seems to be a factor for that
02:23:38jhMikeSor prefetch. for example, a sleep write immediately followed by a wake write will actually not sleep because the next instruction gets executed after the sleep write before it sleeps
02:24:20amiconnIt's definitely the streqb
02:24:28amiconnI'm trying streqh next
02:24:57amiconnIf that doesn't help, I'll put 3 nops in front as well (and balance with further nops for my test)
02:25:41jhMikeScore_wake should also be altered then as well as the CORE_CTL definition
02:25:48amiconnmeh, streqh doesn't like the addressing mode
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02:27:30*amiconn tries tsreq instead
02:27:33amiconn*streq
02:28:58amiconnIt's not the byte access - streq also crashes
02:31:23jhMikeSbut that instruction crashes or doesn't crash depending on whether the nops precede or follow?
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02:33:10amiconnIt crashes or doesn't crash depending on how it's aligned
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02:33:43jhMikeSjust the alignment of that one instruction?
02:33:50amiconnyes
02:34:29jhMikeSwhat precise alignment is needed for that?
02:35:25jhMikeSor did you imply 16 bytes?
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02:36:27amiconnIt must be aligned at xxxxxx4 or xxxxxxx8 in order to work, if I didn't make a mistake
02:38:58jhMikeSpossible to pad before/after with words? I know you can pad with specific byte values in gas.
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02:46:28amiconnThe ROM seems to have this instruction at all possible alignments, although most instances handle the cop only
02:47:34jhMikeSthe cop never has to see any of the thread code for the alignment crashing to surface
02:48:02amiconnYes, but the cop also crashes if it's not aligned properly
02:48:38amiconnIt alost seems there's something in the deisgn of the PP5002 that makes it transfer values from cpu_control to the PC
02:48:51amiconnI'fe seen crash addresses of 0xCF004084 several times now...
02:49:53*amiconn wonders whether the addressing mode using the shifter is involved
02:50:08amiconnBut I need to stop experimenting for now and get some sleep
02:50:34jhMikeSthe writes to the control register after the first DC commit didn't use that for pp5002
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05:12:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:12:50major_worksIs there a knowledgeable person on who could look at this and help me understand why it's causing a make to fail?
05:12:54major_workshttp://pastebin.com/ddaa336c
05:18:22XavierGrmake sure to: have the latest source and update your repository, make clean, reconfigure
05:18:49XavierGror even make veryclean
05:18:59major_worksIt was the latest source. There are patches applied, however.
05:19:16JdGordonsvn up
05:19:23JdGordonlooks like your not latest
05:19:29JdGordonor a patch is borken
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05:20:06major_worksOh yeah, I did have to hand-patch some stuff. Multifont for one; viewports for another. Both are out of sync at this point.
05:20:39major_worksBut it was a fairly straightforward hand patch, which is good, because I am not a coder by any stretch.
05:21:24XavierGrthen type svn diff | patch -R to remove all differences and then svn up as JdGordon said
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05:30:02major_worksI'll start over with your suggestions. thanks.
05:31:07JdGordonsvn revert -R <path> is a better way to blow away all changes
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