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#rockbox log for 2008-03-07

00:00:54 Quit gevaerts ("sleeping time")
00:02:04peturbah, I was one word wrong, the 1gb sandisk doesn't comply
00:03:44amiconnOur 'force pio mode' setting checks a rather arbitrary bit...
00:03:53amiconnIt's doing so for years though
00:04:11amiconn4 years to be precise
00:05:10peturall these feature bits are 'not to be depended on'
00:05:25peturso what do we use.... lousy spec
00:06:24 Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
00:06:29amiconnAccording to the ata specs those words are valid if the indicator bits are set approrpiately
00:06:46peturfor pio modes we should look at word 64
00:07:04amiconnWord 64 lists the modes, but not whether modes can be set
00:07:27petur'Word 64: Advanced PIO transfer modes supported'
00:07:32amiconnModes can always be set, hence there is no indicator bit for that, and Linus used a bit that's (nearly) guaranteed to be 1
00:10:07peturso we should check the indicator bits before usin g words 82-84
00:11:02amiconnPerhaps. But that a-data card does indicate words 82..84 as valid
00:11:05 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
00:11:17peturyes (I was just typing that)
00:11:29amiconnWords 85..87 are indicated as invalid though
00:12:23peturmaybe nobody bothers to use advanced powermanagement...
00:12:27 Join Zarggg [0] (
00:12:59*petur is doing a battery benchmark on his H10 with and without to see the difference
00:13:45amiconnH10 is probably a bad target for that test
00:14:02amiconnThose microdrive do at least partially implement the cf standard
00:14:26amiconnAnd on cf apm probably doesn't matter because cf power management is pretty much automatic
00:14:27peturI am testing the patch that disables powermanagement for CF
00:14:48peturso I want to know if this influences H10
00:15:04peturbecause the microdrive reports as CF
00:15:07amiconnIt could also influence the mini, or the mrobe100, you never know
00:15:30amiconnNo, it doesn't
00:15:57peturstill need a nano owner to test the modified soft_reset
00:16:06amiconnThe CF signature is word 0 == 0x848A according to the standard
00:16:25amiconnAnd the H10's drive reports 0x0C5A
00:16:47peturI mean the new check which looks at the sector count
00:16:52*amiconn wants to see this cf check removed
00:16:55 Join csc` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc)
00:17:08petursure.... me too
00:17:38peturwhy do you think I bother trying and testing stuff?
00:18:07amiconnAt least in the form of checking words which aren't actually related to the problematic features
00:18:58amiconnBtw, all the CF cards in the list either report to support the CFA feature set (word 83 bit 2), or have an invalid word 83
00:19:15amiconnThat also applies to the darn microdrives though
00:20:29 Join wvmac [0] (
00:21:19 Quit OlivierBorowski (Remote closed the connection)
00:23:22 Join DerDome [0] (
00:24:41amiconnThere must be a way to reliably distinguish CF and HDD. The CF standard also specifies PIO modes 5 and 6. The ATA standard does not (not even ATA-7)
00:25:37 Quit ender` (" Top reason why compilers are like women: Miss a period and they go crazy")
00:27:29peturhear hear
00:27:42peturyou wanted the cf check removed...
00:28:09amiconnI still want that if at all possible
00:28:48*petur has an attention problem, looking at a documentary of The Smiths at the same time ;)
00:29:47 Quit roolku ()
00:30:39*scorche|sh wonders if petur is a shoplifter
00:31:26peturno, but devconpub must have caused some panic in the streets of london :p
00:31:38 Quit Arathis ("Bye, bye")
00:31:48 Quit n1s ()
00:33:07amiconnBtw, what's the effect of the apm feature set operation failing?
00:33:12 Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("This computer has gone to sleep")
00:34:41 Quit ol_schoola ()
00:35:49peturyes, and SENSE returns 0x1F (unsupported)
00:36:34 Quit tessarakt ("Client exiting")
00:38:51petururgh wrong. it is 'Data Transfer Error / Aborted Command'
00:40:15*petur moves closer to a power socket. laptop and target both low on battery
00:41:14 Join spiorf [0] (
00:41:45 Quit herrwaldo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:48:22peturwhy doesn't features[] use a bitmask iso a bitnumber
00:52:33amiconnRight now one array element is 4 bytes, i.e. a power of 2
00:52:59peturI mean use 0x08 and not 3
00:53:05amiconnIf you relace the bit number (char) with a mask (necessarily unsigned short), it becomes 5 bytes
00:53:27 Quit spiorf (Remote closed the connection)
00:53:33amiconnAnd since that's not a power of 5, addressing array elements needs more code
00:53:38peturwould have been easier to check the validate bits at the same time
00:53:40amiconnEhh, a power of 2
00:53:58peturah well
00:54:02 Quit kies (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:54:13amiconnThat whole check should probably be redesigned based on those new findings
00:54:42 Quit Soap_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:54:58 Join kies [0] (
00:56:08 Quit wvmac ("Lost terminal")
00:56:18amiconnpetur: What about using the validity bits for these feature *settings* (i.e. word 87 bits 15 and 14) for deciding whether to refrain from setting apm?
00:56:51*petur checks those values for hdd
00:57:15amiconnThe hdds all have valid word 87
00:57:23amiconn_including_ the microdrives
00:57:48*amiconn wants more values
00:58:29amiconnI only have one single CF card - an 1GB Sandisk Ultra II
00:59:17peturwhat about all those dumps in the wiki?
00:59:24amiconnHmm, the Sandisk Ultra II 2GB in the list indicates word 87 as valid
01:00:09petursame as my sandisk 1GB
01:00:13amiconnThose are about a dozen cards and harddisks. Also, for most of them the "pwrmgt fails" column just says "?"
01:01:18 Join japc [0] (
01:02:31peturI wonder if the description of bit 3 of word 85 is a typo: talks about 'supported', not 'enabled'
01:03:24amiconnI am wondering the same, although ata-4, ata-5 and ata-7 all say "supported"
01:03:26peturthose hdd dumps were taken after the set_features was executed :/
01:03:38amiconnYes of course
01:03:57peturalso, word 85 is 0 for those sandisk cards...
01:04:21amiconnThe bootloader already does that (how else would it load rockbox to do the dump?)
01:04:29*petur looks for a bit that must be set
01:05:02*amiconn curses thread.c, especially sleep_core()
01:06:01amiconnThat function is one big FOREVER loop - and putting my alignment-changing 'nop's in there causes gcc to shuffle instructions all over
01:09:27*petur gives transcend x133 2GB a strange look. word 85 = 1 (supports smart???)
01:09:28amiconnSo all I could find out is that the alignment problem is within that function, because correcting the alignment before this call makes it work, and after that call it fails (sleep_core() is inlined within switch_thread())
01:09:58amiconnpetur: It doesn't. Word 85 isn't valid according to word 87
01:10:36peturhmmm my cf spec says nothing about word 87 :(
01:10:50peturoh it does
01:11:11peturthat stuff should be in nice tables, not text
01:12:19 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
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01:13:14*amiconn wonders where the threading guru is when he needs him
01:13:16amiconnjhMikeS: ping
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01:14:25 Quit tvelocity__ (Remote closed the connection)
01:14:53 Join Jessica464 [0] (
01:15:13Jessica464Hey folks. Anyone still have an old Archos Jukebox?
01:16:03 Join cool_walking_ [0] (
01:16:31pixelmasome do, just ask your actual question and see (have a bit patience too)
01:17:17Jessica464I dropped 2500mAh niMH in my jukebox, but the battery life is like 25% what it used to be? any clues? The battery change happened at the same time i installed rockbox.
01:17:48Jessica464i figured with 2500mAh the thing would run foreever
01:18:23Jessica464Also, anyone replaced the 20GB HD with a newer 160GB? any issues doing so?
01:19:17Jessica464thx for the tip, pix. Unfortunately, I catch my flight for Shenzhen in a few hours. At the mo, it seems like it is gonna be a silent flight.
01:20:32amiconnDid you try charging the batteries in an external charger and check runtime?
01:20:51pixelmaalso those high capacity cells often suffer from high self discharge (there is a new generation out there that doesn't)
01:20:57amiconnAlso, what jukebox is that, Player/Studio or Recorder?
01:20:58Jessica464doing that now, but I don't know if they'll fully cook b4 i need to leave.
01:21:36scorche|shJessica464: i have replaced it with a 160, but keep in mind that unless you enable LBA48 support, you will only get 128/137 GiB/GB
01:21:39amiconnCould be that our charging algorithm doesn't fully charge the batteries. What rockbox build are you running?
01:22:10Jessica464hmmm... not sure on the build. lemme check
01:23:53 Quit DerDome ("Leaving.")
01:25:30Jessica464the date is 7/24/07
01:25:35Jessica464on my RB build
01:25:42 Join WatchDragon [0] (
01:26:23amiconnUmm, that's old.... although, it's at least not the 2.5 release from the rockbox stone age
01:26:34Jessica464are niMH ok, or should I be using nicad?
01:26:51amiconnRegarding the high self-discharge rate of high capacity NiMH - I'd recommend everyone to use the new generation cells instead. They are "only" avaliable as 2100mAh cells (Sanyo: 2000mAh), but lengths better than ordinary high capacity cells
01:26:52jhMikeSamiconn: yez
01:27:01scorche|shJessica464: NiMH only
01:27:25Jessica464ok scor
01:27:26*amiconn experienced ordinary high capacity cells emptyig themselves within 1..2 days
01:28:01Jessica464i'm getting 2~3 hours from these 2500mAHs!!!!
01:28:09 Part toffe82
01:28:34amiconnDirectly after charging?
01:28:39scorche|shthat definitely seems off if they are brand new...can you get longer runtimes by putting in your old betteries?
01:29:05Jessica464amicon, yes
01:29:22Jessica464scor: they were new when i put them in the archos
01:29:32Jessica464i had to recycle the old ones
01:30:33scorche|shJessica464: well, it *could* be other things as well, but testing different batteries is the easiest thing to check
01:30:54Jessica464yeah, shame i have only a couple of hours...
01:31:04Jessica464and no other batteries!
01:32:22*jhMikeS read what amiconn said and experiences a 'wtf' moment
01:33:01amiconnjhMikeS: Regarding what part?
01:33:17scorche|shthe charging algorithym?
01:33:28peturJessica464: get some non-rechargeables at the airport?
01:33:49scorche|shJessica464: and if you get non-rechargables, make sure not to accidently charge them ;)
01:33:55jhMikeSamiconn: putting nops in sleep_core having the effect you reported. I think at first commit the function was in IRAM.
01:33:57Jessica464pet: like alcaline?
01:33:57pixelmathat could be dangerous if one then inserts a charger...
01:33:59peturscorche|sh: the threading problem
01:34:37saratogajhMikeS: someone suggested you knew something about why the backlight might be very slow to active lately?
01:34:38amiconnI tracked down the location where the PP5002 obviously originates, but unfortunately it's not very precise, because I cannot put nops *into* sleep_core() without making gcc shuffling instructions all around
01:35:11amiconnBut why does *code* alignment have an effect at all? And why there?
01:35:41amiconnpetur, Jessica464: Alkalines shouldn't be used in the archos
01:36:07jhMikeSsaratoga: it's the priority and a side effect of actually fixing the scheduling. I'd suggest just making it a normal UI prority thread for the time being.
01:36:12Jessica464ami, then what non-rechareables should I use?
01:36:37peturJessica464: seems I gave wrong advice then...
01:36:48amiconnJessica464: None. The archos jukeboxes are designed to run from NiMH. Other batteries will either work poorly, or not at all
01:36:58saratogajhMikeS: how are thread priorities adjusted? I'd like to play with this a bit
01:37:15Jessica464ok. so it's rechargeables or nuthin
01:37:49Jessica464anyone know what voltage and current I should be charging the archos with?
01:37:55scorche|shamiconn: i would think lithium would sate the power demands just fine, no?
01:38:03jhMikeSamiconn: that's weird. Now that you found that I'm brainstorming for an answer on that.
01:38:05amiconnMost probably not
01:38:22scorche|shwhy not?
01:38:41jhMikeSsaratoga: the create_thread call in backlight.c inside IF_PRIO()
01:38:50amiconnscorche: The circuitry is designed for the typical openloop voltage of NiMH cells, i.e. 4x 1.2V. Non-rechargeables start at 1.5V
01:39:07jhMikeSsaratoga: use PRIORITY_USER_INTERFACE
01:39:13amiconnAnd the jukeboxes need cells with a very low impedance, because of the high hdd spinup current
01:39:39scorche|shyes...the lithium should be fine with regards to impedance
01:39:55saratogajhMikeS: instead of "PRIORITY_SYSTEM"?
01:40:16jhMikeSsaratoga: yes
01:40:22Jessica464lithium wont charge properly in a device designed to charge nimh, will it?
01:40:37scorche|shJessica464: no...i am talking just about usage
01:40:57saratogaputting lithium in anything but a lithium charger will probably result in an on fire battery
01:41:30Jessica464so, for niMH in an archos rockbox, what voltage and current should I charge it at?
01:44:03 Join csc`` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc)
01:44:13saratogajhMikeS: that fix seems to have worked fairly well
01:44:14amiconnWhen charging them in the device, you should either use the original charger (9V unregulated), or a *regulated* 12V charger. Less won't fully charge the batteries, more will produce unnecessary heat and eventually break the charging circuit
01:44:15*jhMikeS has to get this priority inheritance done and it's the hardest piece and most time-consuming of programming undertaken yet but what's done works extremely well (and as a bonus alot of kernel stuff is more simple)
01:44:22saratogatakes about half a second to come on now
01:44:28saratogainstead of the 2-5 seconds before
01:44:45amiconnIf you charge them externally, use a proper NiMH charger
01:45:47Jessica464ami, but at what current?
01:45:54jhMikeSsaratoga: with the changes I've made (somewhat of a 2nd-pass rewrite), even at PRIORITY_SYSTEM, the backlight delay is hardly perceivable :)
01:46:43 Quit csc` (Nick collision from services.)
01:46:46 Nick csc`` is now known as csc` (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc)
01:46:48*amiconn managed to track down the crash location a bit further
01:46:50amiconnjhMikeS: The problem must be somewhere between start of sleep_core(), and the core_sleep() call (line 1466)
01:47:08amiconncore_sleep() is asm, so I could sneak in 2 extra nops without gcc going wild
01:48:41saratogajhMikeS: these are going to be committed relatively soon?
01:48:58saratogai'm wondering if its worth working around this issue in SVN in the meantime
01:49:33amiconnThere are 55 instrucitons between the 2 known points
01:49:56jhMikeSsaratoga: I'd just commit it. Really I think all UI-based threads should be equal since they're expected to response well to input.
01:50:08saratogaok will do
01:50:34jhMikeSamiconn: you put nops both at the start and the end?
01:51:16jhMikeSthat code didn't even exist for PP5002 at the initial commit though. that only came with finishing dual-core support there and the same problem creeps in even if it's the C reference version.
01:52:04amiconnI first tested the effect of a varying number of nops in main(). With my current build, 0 or 3 nops work fine, 1 or 2 nops make it crash. The effects are modulo-4
01:52:38amiconnThen I put 4 nops into main() - everything ok. Then I started moving 2 of the 4 nops around the code.
01:52:43Jessica464ami: do you know the current i should be charging this thing at?
01:53:21amiconnIf I moved them too far to the end, it was crashing, moved them back to the beginning, worked again etc (bisecting)
01:53:37amiconnJessica464: The current will be determined by the device.
01:53:55amiconnYOur charger should be capable of providing at least 400mA
01:54:12amiconnAll this must be somewhere in the wiki
01:54:28Jessica464err... i no longer have the original charger, and there is no spec on the archos itself.
01:55:16amiconnjhMikeS: I finally found that putting the nops *directly* before the sleep_core() call in switch_thread(), it works, and if I put them directly after that call, it crashes
01:55:24amiconn(sleep_core() is inlined)
01:55:30Jessica464is there a wiki for the archos?
01:56:11amiconnAnd the tiny bit further I got is that if I put the nops into core_sleep() it still crashes, so the problem must be before that
01:57:44 Quit BlakeJohnson86 ("Leaving.")
01:59:07peturamiconn: uploaded a new CF patch that should be committable, feel free to comment (no hurry)
01:59:15amiconnjhMikeS: is the whole, inlined sleep_core(). The problem must be somewhere between the beginning and 0x4404c
01:59:42 Join jurrie [0] (
02:00:07peturamiconn: my mk8007gah still reports powermanagement in word 85 even if not set, so looks good :)
02:00:32amiconnThe bootloader would set it...
02:00:49peturargh... right :/
02:01:13peturwill play with that tomorrow - bedtime now
02:01:21 Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
02:02:55jhMikeSamiconn: why do you cut it off at the nops in core_sleep?
02:03:49jhMikeS0x4404c is the first nop of core_sleep assembly
02:04:27amiconnAnd if I put the 2 extra nops there (my only chance to put extra nops into sleep_core()), it still crashes, so the problem must be before that
02:05:17 Quit Jessica464 ("")
02:06:08amiconn...becasue my system of bisecting was designed so that the build crashes if the nops come after the alignment sensitive code, and does not crash if they come before that code
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02:07:47*amiconn realises that he can put the testing nops a little bit further up
02:07:48jhMikeSthis is twilight zone stuff. 1) Why only PP5002 2) why there of all places thing happens there that happens nowhere else
02:10:27jhMikeSit's the place where context is whatever context exists at the time no threads are actually scheduled but it's running in the context of the last thread that became non-runnable
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02:11:13amiconnSeems we're lucky
02:11:28amiconnThe problem seems to be *in* core_sleep() itself
02:12:25amiconnNow I'm moving the nops intsruction-by-instruction
02:16:40jhMikeSusage of str<cond>b instead of str<cond> to the processor control reg? <== big guess
02:17:35*amiconn suspects that one instructions and skips a few to hopefully get a result earlier
02:18:10amiconnDoes the OF uses 32 bit accesses?
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02:18:55*jhMikeS is checking a disassembly if he can locate it
02:22:02amiconnOF uses either STRH or STR
02:22:14amiconnSome places also have 3 NOPs before *and* 3 NOPs after t
02:22:39amiconnActually I checked 2nd Gen ROM code
02:22:42jhMikeSThe pipeline seems to be a factor for that
02:23:38jhMikeSor prefetch. for example, a sleep write immediately followed by a wake write will actually not sleep because the next instruction gets executed after the sleep write before it sleeps
02:24:20amiconnIt's definitely the streqb
02:24:28amiconnI'm trying streqh next
02:24:57amiconnIf that doesn't help, I'll put 3 nops in front as well (and balance with further nops for my test)
02:25:41jhMikeScore_wake should also be altered then as well as the CORE_CTL definition
02:25:48amiconnmeh, streqh doesn't like the addressing mode
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02:27:30*amiconn tries tsreq instead
02:28:58amiconnIt's not the byte access - streq also crashes
02:31:23jhMikeSbut that instruction crashes or doesn't crash depending on whether the nops precede or follow?
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02:33:10amiconnIt crashes or doesn't crash depending on how it's aligned
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02:33:43jhMikeSjust the alignment of that one instruction?
02:34:29jhMikeSwhat precise alignment is needed for that?
02:35:25jhMikeSor did you imply 16 bytes?
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02:36:27amiconnIt must be aligned at xxxxxx4 or xxxxxxx8 in order to work, if I didn't make a mistake
02:38:58jhMikeSpossible to pad before/after with words? I know you can pad with specific byte values in gas.
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02:46:28amiconnThe ROM seems to have this instruction at all possible alignments, although most instances handle the cop only
02:47:34jhMikeSthe cop never has to see any of the thread code for the alignment crashing to surface
02:48:02amiconnYes, but the cop also crashes if it's not aligned properly
02:48:38amiconnIt alost seems there's something in the deisgn of the PP5002 that makes it transfer values from cpu_control to the PC
02:48:51amiconnI'fe seen crash addresses of 0xCF004084 several times now...
02:49:53*amiconn wonders whether the addressing mode using the shifter is involved
02:50:08amiconnBut I need to stop experimenting for now and get some sleep
02:50:34jhMikeSthe writes to the control register after the first DC commit didn't use that for pp5002
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05:12:50major_worksIs there a knowledgeable person on who could look at this and help me understand why it's causing a make to fail?
05:18:22XavierGrmake sure to: have the latest source and update your repository, make clean, reconfigure
05:18:49XavierGror even make veryclean
05:18:59major_worksIt was the latest source. There are patches applied, however.
05:19:16JdGordonsvn up
05:19:23JdGordonlooks like your not latest
05:19:29JdGordonor a patch is borken
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05:20:06major_worksOh yeah, I did have to hand-patch some stuff. Multifont for one; viewports for another. Both are out of sync at this point.
05:20:39major_worksBut it was a fairly straightforward hand patch, which is good, because I am not a coder by any stretch.
05:21:24XavierGrthen type svn diff | patch -R to remove all differences and then svn up as JdGordon said
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05:30:02major_worksI'll start over with your suggestions. thanks.
05:31:07JdGordonsvn revert -R <path> is a better way to blow away all changes
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07:49:19LloreanOkay, in the last couple of days we've had about a half dozen reported data aborts on myriad PP targets on flyspray.
07:49:44JdGordonyeah, something has gone to shits!
07:49:54 Nick JdGordon is now known as JdGordon|afk (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
07:50:38 Nick JdGordon|afk is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
07:50:41LloreanAnd the addresses look fairly random to me. At least, they cover a wide range
07:53:15JdGordonactually, I got a data abort yesterday also, but that was my first in _ages_ and it hasnt happened since
07:54:15LinusN"hyperdrive"... haha
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07:55:10gideanhi everyone....
07:55:17LinusNthat was a funny response, though i feel that we might have to be a little more polite when it comes to silly requests
07:55:27LinusNgidean: hi
07:55:34LloreanLinusN: I'm curious where, now.
07:55:38gideanjust got a gigabeat f10 and installed rockbox...looks really good...
07:56:03LinusNLlorean: the feature request tracker, "USB audio"
07:56:03gideanthen I erased something and now it gives me an error: no system found on HDD :(
07:56:10gideanany suggestions?
07:56:25krazykitgidean, read the wiki for the recovery instructions for gigabeat
07:56:42gideanthanks krazykit!
07:56:47JdGordonLinusN: well even his suggestion was nonsence.. "maybe in the far future... "!
07:56:57LloreanAh, closed before it got to my RSS reader.
07:57:17LinusNJdGordon: sure it was nonsense, but meybe he didn't realize that himself
07:58:12LloreanActually, for SWUSB targets it's not terribly nonsense, but the request itself was kinda... not requesty. I think we actually may have an outstanding request for that anyway.
07:58:25*LinusN makes note to self, "it's spelled MAYBE"
07:58:45gideanOne more Q: I don't have the disk... can I find GBSYSTEM?
07:58:59*Llorean wants his SWUSB targets to all serve as USB displays for Windows Sideshow.
07:59:12gideanusing linux BTW
07:59:35krazykitgidean, you might be able to use the blank gbsystem files linked immediately above that section.
07:59:57LloreanBut seriously, a mini-computer with input, display, audio output, and storage, with a fully under our control USB connection is kinda a flexible doodad.
08:00:22LinusNJdGordon, Llorean: still i think it would even be better to say "your request is ridiculous, because..." instead of just making fun of him
08:01:01LinusNespecially since it actually might be feasible on some targets
08:01:12LloreanLinusN: Agreed entirely
08:02:11LloreanOr perhaps "Rockbox is an audio player firmware, and this feature doesn't really serve that purpose, as it's bypassing Rockbox entirely, so while technically possible, probably isn't suitable for the core"
08:03:36LloreanOn a note unrelated entirely, does anyone know if we've any documented knowledge on 2G Nanos?
08:04:39JdGordonyou guys are no fun :p but yeah ok, i agree
08:04:51*gidean sighs.
08:05:02gideanno dice, krazykit...
08:05:07LloreanThey work
08:05:16LloreanYou don't need any original toshiba files
08:05:40LloreanAs long as you have those files, and Rockbox, in the proper places on your disk, the Gigabeat will boot unless you've damaged it somehow
08:06:09 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
08:06:33gideanwhen on usb it shows the gigabeat usb soon as I unplug: 00010070 no system found on HDD
08:06:55LloreanAnd you installed those files AND a Rockbox bootloader AND a Rockbox build?
08:07:04gideanI was trying to make room and inadvertinly deleted some imprtant stuff..
08:07:15gideanused the auto install, yep
08:07:23LloreanThat doesn't install those files.
08:07:43LloreanYou should install those files, and do a manual install to verify all the necessary files exist
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08:20:24markungidean: you just need to extract the fake GBSYSTEM zip and then copy the bootloader (FWIMG01.DAT) to GBSYSTEM\FWIMG
08:21:54gideanbootloader to GBSYSTEM\FWIMG? I'll try real quick..
08:22:11markun and
08:22:38markun(extract the zip to your player)
08:23:20markunand no need for the recovery procedure when you get "no system found" because it enter USB mode, right?
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08:25:45markungidean: kkurbjun is working on our own bootloader in flash. It has a few advantages, one is that we don't need the GBSYSTEM folder anymore.
08:26:55gideanmarkun: it worked! Thanks so much! I was trying to make space on the GB from the CLI and deleted something I should have...
08:27:02gideanbut Its better now!
08:27:15gideanThanks to everyone who responded, too!
08:27:26gideanjust to let everyone know what worked:
08:29:10gideanAs per markun's instructions I copied the fake GBsystem to the player and added FWIMG01.DAT to GBSYSTEM\FWIMG
08:29:22gideanAgain, thanks much!
08:29:38*Llorean is pretty sure that's what he said to do too.
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08:30:56gideani guess you did...eitherway, thanks for the response :)
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08:32:46markungidean: glad it worked
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08:42:40markunLinusN: USB audio is not so far fetched, is it?
08:42:52markunwe've talked about it in here before. Don't see why it's closed.
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08:48:06markuncan I reopen it?
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08:57:13LinusNmarkun: i believe it's feasible, i think you should repoen it
08:57:29*LinusN invents words on a daily basis
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09:00:47amiconnmarkun: USB audio? In what direction?
09:01:07LinusNamiconn: to rockbox
09:01:23LinusNto use rockbox as a usb audio card
09:01:30amiconnHmm. What would that be good for?
09:01:43LinusNbeats me :-)
09:01:48*petur knows
09:02:05peturto pirate music (record the output digitally)
09:02:20Zagorthere's much easier ways to do that
09:02:47peturok, then I don't know either... because the pc has a lousy audio card?
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09:03:50peturamiconn: I was thinking about that last CF test yesterday. The bootloader indeed sets the powermanagement, but after the first disk powerdown this is no longer the case, right?
09:04:44LinusNthat is true if you cut the power
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09:05:39peturon h300, we do that
09:05:57LinusNpetur: however, ata_power_on() calls set_features() again
09:06:20peturyes, but that will be my modified set_features()
09:06:27peturnot the bootloader one
09:06:46*amiconn wonders what petur wants to do now
09:06:55peturthe CF mod needs a new bootloader anyway because of this
09:07:03LinusNpetur: but when does the bootloader spin down?
09:07:18peturamiconn: see my latest patch?
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09:07:58peturLinusN: this is just for testing, to read the identify info without powermanagement being set
09:08:21peturI now look at word 85 for powermanagement capability
09:08:35LinusNi read the irc log
09:09:54peturbtw, I got svn bootloader working on my h380 by adding some printf before ata init... really beats me what is wrong there
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09:13:38amiconnpetur: Identify info is only read once, at ata_init()
09:14:01*petur slaps forehead
09:14:06amiconnThere is no disk poweroff between the bootloader setting the feature, and ata_init in main rockbox
09:15:05amiconn"Poor forehead, nobody likes him" ;)
09:15:33*petur waits until forehead logs in and beats back
09:19:02LinusNpetur: you mean that it needs more time between power on and ata_init()?
09:20:21peturLinusN: it behaves very odd, and only when that disk is in that h300 - must gbe a timing issue. I also had it hang when inserting usb, which will be the same thing probably.
09:20:54peturFor some reason, current svn bootloader no longer boots rockbox _at_all_ on my h380
09:20:56LinusNyou mean it works in a different h300?
09:21:09peturafter devcon07 it still was 50%
09:21:27peturyes, I did the test once
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09:22:21LinusNbtw, the mk1011gah with zif adapter will not fit in an h300
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09:22:58peturno problem, by the time I need a bigger disk, I'll get an 128GB CF card ;)
09:23:31peturit is a pitty though
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09:23:38peturoh no
09:23:44*petur ducks
09:24:00*forehead attacks
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09:26:05peturLinusN: some people at taperssection have expressed interest in that zif adapter, I hope the mailinglist poster finds a way for people to order...
09:26:10amiconnLinusN: What about the X5?
09:26:19peturor maybe they'll show up on ebay
09:26:37LinusNamiconn: i don't have an x5l to try with
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09:27:06amiconnWhy an L?
09:27:52*petur rad that as 51 (fifty-one)
09:28:33peturthe L only has a bigger battery, no bigger disk, right
09:28:41amiconnLinusN: How much length does the adapter add?
09:29:12amiconn(or rather, how much longer is the combination of MK1011GAH+adapter, compared to an ordinary 50-pin disk?)
09:29:40amiconnpetur: The X5 comes as single platter and dual platter models, the X5L comes as single platter only
09:29:56LinusNamiconn: my bad, i meant i need a dual platter x5
09:30:01amiconnThe X5 dual platter (60GB) uses the exact same case as the X5L
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09:31:09amiconnThe L has a second battery in the extra room that the single platter disk in the "dual platter case" leaves
09:31:32amiconnSo you can convert an X5L into an ordinary X5 if you want to fit a dual platter hdd
09:31:50peturlike putting an extra fat battery in an h340 and put a single platter disk in
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09:32:17amiconnSame applies to M5(L) and M3(L)
09:32:35*amiconn 's M3 is a (rare) dual platter model :)
09:34:19*stripwax will upload the tower-of-rockbox and rockhenge photos tonight when his phone is feeling better :(
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09:35:48markunrockhenge, nice!
09:36:37LinusNamiconn: the mk1011gah+adapter is about 1.3cm longer
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10:14:09markunI would like the forum to move threads to the top of the list after editing a post
10:16:52peturthen don't edit
10:18:02markunI would be double posting if I didn't edit which is forbidden :)
10:18:29peturdelete your post and post again
10:18:49markuna good one
10:18:55markunor maybe the forums could be fixed?
10:19:52pixelmaI believe I saw a "forum feature requests" thread, not sure if it's still there
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10:23:22pixelmaLinusN: yes, thanks. Those 20GB in my M5L is a bit sparse but I like the runtime so much and wouldn't want to sacrifice the second battery...
10:24:41peturpixelma: go CF :)
10:25:25pixelmaalso true, 32GB would already be an improvement
10:25:44peturor wait a bit for 64GB, 128GB, ... :)
10:27:04pixelmawould 2 card fit? Just got this strange idea to use 2 and a multivolume build (don't have the faintest idea if that would work though...) :)
10:27:45pixelmahmmm, forgot the connection issue probably
10:28:07peturroom is no issue, but I don't know of an adapter that has room for both master and slave
10:28:48peturand ata.c supports only one of them at the moment
10:29:56pixelmathanks for the information. It only crossed my mind, I didn't think about it before...
10:34:25peturpixelma: it does exist, but the angle of the ide connector is wrong
10:35:37*petur wonders about the floppy power connector and the master/slave jumper
10:37:46peturand the ide connector is wrong too :/
10:38:11LinusNit annoys me that the ZIF connector faces the wrong direction:
10:39:04peturLinusN: if the flatcable is long enough, you could mount the disk the other way around?
10:39:39LinusNperhaps, but you don't want a flat cable that long...
10:40:09LinusNthe esskabel adapter is much smarter imho
10:43:18LinusNi must say that 27 euros is a lot for such an adapter
10:44:02amiconnAta allows up to 50cm iirc
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10:51:30*gevaerts thinks that usb audio should be doable, and probably not too difficult
10:52:54markungevaerts: good to hear :)
10:54:49LinusNif i only could find a good source of hdd connectors, i could make my own adapter...
11:01:25amiconnpixelma, petur: I think a dual-CF adapter should be doable, and master-slave support could be added to the ata driver
11:01:54amiconnIt could then either be used with multivolume, or simply by "disk" chaining
11:02:05pixelmaall those possibilities... :)
11:02:32amiconnChaining is probably not a good idea because of usb though
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11:12:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:32:55pondlifeHmm, wonder where GodEater went?
11:35:23peturhe didn't show up?
11:36:04linuxstbNo, and I don't think he's been online since yesterday morning
11:37:10 Join Crash91 [0] (n=Crash@
11:37:15linuxstbBTW, the Cowon D2 seems a nice little device - much smaller than I imagined.
11:37:18peturthey arrested a guy recently for having an mp3 player with him (somebody thought it was a gun), maybe they went after him too (having multiple mp3 players)
11:37:30Crash91 We want to keep an area on the page which can show people what Rockbox is capable of looking like < /me thinks maybe a slideshow?
11:37:37linuxstbWe did get a lot of questions from passers-by in the pub...
11:37:37pondlifepetur: You should have seen linuxstb's stash last night
11:38:06pondlifeI told the staff they were bombs. I don't think they got the joke.
11:38:26Crash91I could also make a little box with all the models in, which the user can scoll through.
11:38:39peturthat kind of jokes doesn't work very good these days
11:38:57pondlifeLuckily they didn't hear me
11:39:05linuxstbCrash91: I'm not sure if we want to waste valuable space on the home page for that - but maybe somewhere like the "why rockbox?" page.
11:39:53linuxstbBut a nice animated GIF showing Rockbox might be nice..
11:40:00pondlifeLinusN: Perhaps you could mention on that this doesn't fit in an H340?
11:40:22Crash91linuxstb: okay, but as for now im concentrating on the main page, i was thinking that a graphical view might be more appealing than "supported models:"
11:40:40pondlifeJust in case someone (like me) assumes the H140 and H340 are the same size.
11:41:05Crash91linuxstb: yes, a GIF sounds nice :) thanks for the idea
11:41:23pondlifeCrash91: I'd rather there was no animation on the front page.
11:41:23linuxstbCrash91: You're suggesting removing the list of supported players?
11:42:01Crash91linuxstb: yes, and replacing them with graphics of the player with model number and type
11:42:24linuxstbSo like the download pages?
11:42:36Crash91linuxstb: yes, kind of
11:42:58gevaertsThat will take lots more space
11:43:16pondlifeZagor: Don't suppose you could use the wiki version of the left-hand menu on the other pages too. I know it's an IE weirdness, but as long as removing the breaks doesn't negatively affect other browsers...
11:43:20LinusNpondlife: i have only an H320, so i can't test, but it still *might* fit
11:43:20Crash91thats why i was considering an animation
11:43:36pondlifeLinusN: Ah, good!
11:43:46Crash91im going to do a mockup first though
11:44:20pondlifeCrash91: I'd ask for more opinions about animation before you spend too much time on it.
11:44:30pondlifeMaybe I'm odd.
11:44:45*linuxstb stands next to pondlife in odd corner
11:44:54Crash91pondlife: that why im going to do a mockup :) and i understand why some people dislike animations
11:45:04Crash91it always comes down to personal preference
11:45:14pondlifeOf course.
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11:45:46*BigBambi reminds Crash91 about blind people and screen readers
11:45:51amiconnLinusN: I'm quite sure the adapter won't fit X5/M5/M3. There's simply no room for the added length
11:46:00*gevaerts thinks that only the MpegPlayerPlugin should do animations
11:46:39LinusNamiconn: that depends on if you can (like on the H140) put the hdd above the audio connectors
11:46:46Crash91BigBambi: <alt> tags, and mostly CSS will make it easy
11:47:14Crash91BigBambi: So removing the list isnt such a great idea :)
11:47:56linuxstbCrash91: Also, where are you getting the graphics from? You can't just take random images from the web...
11:47:58BigBambiPersonally I prefer a list of supported models not an animation - quicker to read, if you glance away you don't have to wait for it to come round again, easier to be specific etc.
11:48:06pondlifeWe could have a separate site to "advertise" Rockbox, using Flash and all that. Aimed squarely at getting new recruits.
11:48:37Crash91linuxstb: what about the download page?
11:48:57linuxstbCrash91: What about it?
11:49:11Crash91linuxstb: the graphics from there maybe?
11:49:24BigBambiI don't object to more pictures on the site in general, I just think replacing certain information with them is a bad idea.
11:49:26linuxstbYes, those are fine to use (obviously)
11:49:52LinusNoh, how great. i found the 1.8" hdd connector, and i can buy them in quantities of 1500 :-)
11:49:54pondlifeZagor: Also noticred that is a dead link from "The Rockbox Crew" tagline
11:50:20LinusNi'm not sure i have a need for 1500 ata<->zif adapters :-)
11:50:22pondlifeon Imnean
11:50:37BigBambiLinusN: Set up a market stall? :)
11:50:40pondlifeLinusN: We could play pass-the-parcel :)
11:51:08pondlifeA very niche market stall...
11:51:37BigBambiWell, he could expand once it is established
11:51:57linuxstbOndio backlight mods?
11:52:18BigBambiExactly, H100 RTC chips, ... The list goes on
11:52:48pondlifeOr just installing Rockbox for people who can't work out RBUtil
11:53:07LinusNsounds like a very lucrative business :-P
11:53:23LinusNor was it "ludicrous"?
11:53:40*linuxstb goes to visit his bank manager for a business loan
11:54:00gevaertsA coworker just suggested to add joypad support once usb host is in, to make playing doom easier
11:54:11BigBambiDear me
11:54:12LinusNthat would be quite cool
11:54:17pondlifeIsn't that on FS already?
11:54:31BigBambiIt would be quite cool for a short time
11:54:46BigBambiA good advert
11:54:57pondlifeYou mean, like Doom is now
11:55:08BigBambiyeah, but more coolerer :)
11:55:32*petur still mentions a usb keyboard
11:56:09peturand a mouse for rockpaint ;)
11:56:19gevaertsI guess that if we have support for petur's keyboard, joypads and similar are basically free (both are HID)
11:56:20pixelmaLinusN: amiconn once found 8GB MMCs (microdia) which could only be bought in a large amount... not sure what happened to this ;)
11:56:41peturyes, and HID is a very simple class
11:57:39gevaertsI still want to add it to the device-stack, to replace the charging-only class (pretend we're a mouse or something, so windows finds drivers).
11:58:17gevaertsAnd then I have my sansa c200 joypad ;)
11:59:19linuxstbWhat about pretending to be a removable drive, but with no media?
11:59:40peturthat would be cleaner
11:59:52gevaertsThat would be even easier (10 minutes work), but it might confuse users
12:00:15peturand coming up as a mouse wouldn't?
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12:00:26linuxstbYou could even press a button to "insert" your disk whilst charging.
12:01:56gevaertspetur: I think windows shows the device name on insert, and not the class name (or only the first time, for a very short time) so users only see this "mouse" when they go to the device manager.
12:02:38gevaertslinuxstb: possible as well. Once we do that I would also suggest to go back to "normal mode" once the OS "ejects" the disk
12:02:52pondlifeWhy not keep it as "charging only" when we are just charging? Seems less confusing.
12:03:17gevaertspondlife: trouble is that windows then asks for drivers.
12:03:25pondlifeAh, I see
12:03:39pondlifeIt has no built-in support for that?
12:03:50pondlifeWhat does the OF do?
12:04:07linuxstbIsn't this what the ipod OF does? IIRC, you can "eject" it from the host OS, and it will leave the disk mode screen, but continue to charge.
12:04:18gevaertsI would personally prefer linuxstb's solution, but I'm afraid of confused users
12:05:01gevaertspondlife: we basically need a device class that does nothing, but nobody specified one. And most OF's don't do harging only as far as I know
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12:05:22pondlifeOK, well I'd do what the iPod OF does then.
12:08:01gevaertsSo the proposal is : on normal insert, present all drives normally and show the USB connection screen. Once the host tells us it doesn't need them any more, go back to normal operation. On "charging" insert, present empty drives, and put a menu item in System (or somewhere else?) to "insert" them, which goes to the USB screen and allows OS access. Also allow this after OS eject.
12:08:13*gevaerts thinks that shouldn't be too complicated
12:08:51gevaertsAnd people who can't find this "pretend to insert" menu can just unplug and plug back in
12:10:23*gevaerts likes this idea. It gets rid of the "charging only" pseudo-driver, and adds useful functionality.
12:10:29linuxstbI'm not sure we need a menu option though - unless it's very easily accessible, it will just be easier to unplug and reattach.
12:11:19pondlifeI'd still like an option to invert the charge/connect option...
12:11:34pondlifei.e. normally charge only, and be a drive if a button is held.
12:11:37linuxstbIf you attach normally, then the host OS ejects the device and Rockbox goes back to normal operation, can we then return to disk mode?
12:12:14linuxstbpondlife: I wouldn't object - it's been a long-time feature request by many people.
12:12:21gevaertslinuxstb: that's what we need this menu option for.
12:12:37linuxstbgevaerts: So it's possible to keep connecting and disconnecting by software?
12:13:55gevaertslinuxstb: not really connecting and disconnecting, although that should be possible as well, just telling the OS that the user took the (insert removable media type of your choice here) out or put it back in
12:14:47linuxstbAh yes, of course...
12:14:47gevaertsIt would also neatly solve this "should we set the REMOVABLE bit or not" discussion
12:16:52gevaertss/neatly solve/sidestep/
12:17:41linuxstbWhat about adding the "disk mode" option at the end of the main menu? It will only appear when charging via usb.
12:18:10linuxstbIt sort of fits, as it will take you to the USB screen.
12:18:11pondlifeI don't like options that appear and hide..
12:18:31pondlifeI was more just thinking of a setting
12:18:41linuxstbBut it's not a setting...
12:18:54pondlifeAh, I misunderstood
12:18:57linuxstbIt's a "now take me to the usb screen" item
12:19:36linuxstbMy fault for saying "disk mode option"...
12:20:20pondlifeWhat about the default action - i.e. make it connect by default (like it does now). That's an option, no?
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12:20:45pondlifeI like the idea of being able to control entry (and exit?) of the USB screen
12:21:47gevaertsDefault connect would be an option in the settings menu, in the future maybe together with the "enable usb audio" and "pretend we're a game controller" options
12:22:45gevaertspondlife: forced exit would be possible, but dangerous for your data. I thinl it's better to exit only if the OS tells us to (by the user choosing "eject")
12:23:23pondlifeTail, meet dog.
12:24:35gevaertsIf we really want to, we could eject/insert devices on a multi-volume system separately, so you can continue playing music from your sd card while updating the rockbox build on internal storage. That would almost certainly be overkill though
12:25:10Crash91What colour scheme is preferable for the front page? The current one, or a more cabbie-ish approach?
12:25:49pondlifeCrash91: I'd say the cabbie-ish one, for consistency. But I may be in the minority.
12:25:59pondlifeNot quite so dark though
12:26:26pondlifeI don't actually use cabbie myself, prefering light backgrounds.
12:26:35Crash91how about a slightly more lighter version, in grey or blue-grey
12:26:45gevaertsI would say cabbie-ish as well, for the same reason. I don't really like white-on-black websites though
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12:27:13gevaertsCrash91: That would give low contrast, which I think is a bad idea
12:27:14*pondlife would like to see an "inverse Cabbie" theme - i.e. dark text, light background
12:27:27pondlifeSame layout, just different colours
12:27:27 Nick mib_98owc9n4 is now known as GodEater (i=c2cbc962@gateway/web/ajax/
12:27:41pondlifeGodEater: What's up?
12:27:59GodEatersorry all - a bit of a personal crisis
12:28:02Crash91gevaerts: yes, hadnt thought about that,
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12:28:09GodEatervery sad I couln't make it last night
12:28:21pondlifeGodEater: No worries, we had a good one. Look after yourself.
12:28:30GodEaterdoing my best
12:28:41GodEaterI'm going on a hen night this weekend. Should be, erm, interesting ;)
12:28:51GodEaterso, where are the photos ?
12:29:09pondlifestripwax took some with his phone, but it was rather dark
12:29:17pondlifeWe managed 2 Towers
12:29:20GodEatercan't wait
12:29:22linuxstbGodEater: We were relying on your camera...
12:29:35pondlifeOr rather a Henge and a Tower.. and a Staircase
12:29:58linuxstbWe had too many rounded corners for a decent tower though...
12:30:10*gevaerts thinks of a new slogan "Rockbox - the firmware that all RockStairs use"
12:30:17GodEatersorry :(
12:30:21linuxstbGodEater: np ;)
12:30:40*pondlife proposed that RockboxPlayer should have a Lego-style body, for ease of Tower building
12:30:53gevaertsThat would be cheating !
12:30:57linuxstbWasn't google built from lego?
12:31:00GodEaterbut innovative...
12:31:12*GodEater likes that idea and seconds it heartily
12:31:18pondlifeYou want to fit a bigger drive in. just add more bricks
12:31:31pondlifeAnd it would offer a new way to brick your player.
12:31:36Crash91play dough, the ultimate in flexibility
12:31:40GodEaterduh dum tsch
12:31:57pondlifeYour DAP would get ever smaller though
12:32:09*gevaerts is still looking for a brick-patterned skin for his players
12:32:10pondlife(as bits of it got caught in the carpet)
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12:33:33linuxstbGodEater: I think this is the only picture to (almost) emerge from last night so far -
12:33:40pondlifeGodEater: is one, but in the wrong aspect ratio
12:33:44pondlifeBeat me
12:34:15GodEaterwhose site is that ?
12:34:25pondlifestripwax's, I think
12:35:04GodEaterdid he demonstrate any more unusual bugs that no-one believed existed ? :D
12:35:30pondlifeNo, but I had to reset with a staple
12:35:43pondlifeH340 crashed in pictureflow
12:36:07*pondlife resolves to always carry his own staples in future
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12:38:11*GodEater discovers that mibbit doesn't work without the https:// from work
12:38:44Crash91Does anyone feel that replacing the sidebar with a horizontal one would be unappealing?
12:38:49gevaertsSlightly gimp-ed version here : gevaerts/rockhenge.jpg">
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12:39:30 Join Nico_P [50] (n=nicolas@rockbox/developer/NicoP)
12:39:38pondlifeCrash91: I personally prefer the top bar idea, it might work better for Flyspray
12:40:05Crash91i found this while looking for layout ideas, and it looks like a simple design
12:40:08linuxstbWouldn't a horizontal bar limit the number of options?
12:40:31linuxstbAh, frames... ;)
12:40:55linuxstbOr I guess you just mean the content of the main frame?
12:41:06gevaertslinuxstb: think of them as viewports ;)
12:41:06LinusNany other guys that feel that Neon John stepped over the line in the mailing list?
12:41:19*GodEater goes to read the ML
12:41:44Nico_Ppondlife: I went to pick up the HD yesterday... working like a charm :)
12:41:49Nico_Pthanks a bunch
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12:42:50GodEaterhmm, it's a little strong
12:42:54pondlifeNico_P: In other news, there's still a rare occasion when playback repeats a track when rebuffering occurs. :/
12:42:58Crash91linuxstb: yes it would limit the options, but we can place other links in the rest of the page
12:43:27Nico_Ppondlife: I also got it to stop playback when it should have changed dirs
12:43:28pondlifeLinusN: Where are the ML guidelines?
12:43:31gevaertsLinusN: I think he definitely did
12:44:00pondlifeNico_P: Auto dir change is completely knackered on target at the moment. Sadly it works great on sim.
12:44:06linuxstbCrash91: I personally like the "quick links" section on the home page, and would like something similar on
12:44:23Crash91LinusN: I like the comparison with pigs :)
12:44:28LinusNon the other hand, i didn't bother for a second that john said "crapple" and "sleazebay"
12:44:39GodEaternor me
12:44:40*Crash91 goes to take a look
12:44:53GodEaterfairly descriptive to be honest
12:45:06LinusNso i think Paul was a little too sensitive there
12:45:23GodEaterI think I'd be more inclined to let blind / foreign people start to complain about words they've not understood
12:45:29GodEaterbefore jumping in and asking people not to use them
12:45:36LinusNmy thinking as well
12:45:37Crash91linuxstb: I like it look, but it takes up more space
12:45:43GodEaterI've never actually seen anyone pipe up and say "what does such-and-such mean?"
12:46:06linuxstbCrash91: Yes, but IMO it makes good use of space - i.e. the user is drawn to it immediately.
12:46:26gevaertsMaybe, but still he explained, and then went on to give a useful answer, so I don't see any reason for Neon John to reply like he did
12:46:33LinusNi'd like to keep the policing down a little to keep the friendliness up
12:46:42Crash91linuxstb: ok, ill probably go with that
12:47:33LinusNgevaerts: sure, the "f*ck yourself" was out of line, but for some reason i kind of understand john's reaction
12:48:59LinusNi think he would have felt otherwise if the complaint would have come *after* the useful response
12:49:23Zagorneon john has, um, let's call it "personality" :-)
12:49:29LinusNoh yes
12:50:44LinusNstill, i don't want the rockbox community to be perceived as unfriendly or unwelcoming
12:52:12LinusNi seriously think we need to keep our tone down a little, and that goes for all our channels, including the tracker and the forum
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12:52:33*linuxstb agrees too
12:52:34pixelmaI don't read Llorean's suggestion to use real words as unfriendly though, but then it seems I'm quite diplomatic...
12:53:15GodEaterLinusN: I've personally found since we've added a few more "Experts" to the forums recently that my blood pressure when dealing with the unwashed masses has gone down considerably. I think we should get a few more promoted to spread the load still more.
12:53:19LinusNabsolutely not unfriendly, but i would call it nitpicking
12:53:21BigBambiI agree too :)
12:53:23GodEaterhopefully this should help out everyone else too
12:53:43linuxstbMaybe we just need to be more tolerant of things like "unreal words"... As long as the majority of people write reasonable English, that sets the tone and I would expect most people to follow it.
12:53:54BigBambiI agree
12:54:20BigBambiThe difficulty comes when you do need to say something, then you get a load of crap abouyt well this person said this, etc....
12:54:50LinusNbesides, words like "thx" and "lol" etc, are pretty much established nowadays
12:55:04BigBambiBut (speaking for the forums for a minute) I/(we) can be too quick to just enforce rules to the detriment of anything else
12:55:06linuxstbBut there are some incomprehensible posts to the forums occasionally...
12:55:14pixelmaI mean you could read Noen John's made up words as unfriendly too (towards Ipod users etc...)
12:56:04pixelmaif I "understand" them correctly
12:56:35BigBambipixelma: You do, and I can see an Apple fan being 'insulted'
12:56:50linuxstbAnd all ebay users IIUC...
12:56:53BigBambiTrouble is, intonation is so hard not face to face and just in text
12:56:58LinusNpixelma: sure, but if a ipod user feels insulted by that, he is the one that needs help
12:57:15gevaertsI think it's reasonable that he replied, as Llorean might indeed have been a bit too trigger happy, but in my mind that never can excuse his language.
12:57:17GodEaternever a truer word
12:57:52BigBambiBut it could avoid all feelings of insult, reasonable or not, if people didn't say things like that
12:58:10BigBambiStill, saying crapple doesn't require a massive go either :)
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12:59:35*gevaerts gets out of the discussion, but still has trouble reading grammatically incorrect sentences in _any_ language, so he likes the attitude to not tolerate this...
13:00:50LinusNin this case, i think "tongue in cheek" describes it pretty well
13:02:03BigBambiAye, but lack of intonation, body language etc. over e-mail, IRC, forums etc. doesn't help
13:02:25LinusNsure, a smiley here and there won't hurt
13:02:53BigBambiyep, indicting jokes is a good thing :)
13:03:52pondlifeToo many smileys is bad too :)
13:04:01BigBambiIndeed so
13:04:18LinusNstill, an occasional "lol", "thx", "wtf" here and there, and some top-posting isn't the end of the world
13:04:43LinusNto me at least
13:05:08pondlifeI find lazy posting (including an entire previous post, or worse, an entire ML digest) the only problem, really.
13:05:25LinusNsame here, more or less
13:05:40BigBambiI find the mixing of top and bottom posting withing a chain of e-mails makes it very hard to follow the conversation
13:05:44pondlifePeople need to be aware that this is a mailing list, not just a newsgroup.
13:05:45 Quit japc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:07:04pondlife<controversial>Why do we need both the forum and the ML anyway</controversial> It's two places to check and to police. Is it not possible to make some kind of accessible interface to the forum?
13:08:09Crash91pondlife: such as allowing guests to post?
13:08:16LinusNi dislike forums, because it forces me to (1) poll actively, and (2) be online to participate
13:08:47 Quit gevaerts (Nick collision from services.)
13:09:05pondlifeAh, yes. Offline use
13:09:08 Join gevaerts [0] (n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts)
13:09:25pondlifeI prefer the ML to the forum, but I don't like the feeling of duplicatiion.
13:10:08Zagorintegrating lists and forums is something of a holy grail. many have tried, none have succeeded afaik
13:10:11linuxstbThe downside of mailing lists is that you need subscribe to the lists...
13:10:15BigBambiWell, I guess an advantage to the forum is that if you just want to ask something occasionally you don't get lots of e-mails all the time
13:10:30*linuxstb wouldn't like the Rockbox forums in his mailbox
13:10:31BigBambi(without repeatedly subscribing and unsubscribing)
13:10:36BigBambihell no
13:10:43gevaertsBut you do get reminded about reading the manual a lot...
13:10:50pondlifeYou don't need to use e-mail for the ML. You can access it as a newsgroup.
13:10:55BigBambiBut I don't want the ML either, hence not signing up to it
13:11:06BigBambipondlife: And reply?
13:11:07linuxstbpondlife: Good idea, let's go usenet...
13:11:15*BigBambi didn't know that
13:11:36*pondlife searches the wiki
13:12:17pondlifeNope, it's not in there...
13:12:24BigBambigevaerts: Well that is what the manual is for
13:12:49***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:12:58*gevaerts now regrets not posting his question on the forum yesterday
13:13:16pondlifeBigBambi: Go to
13:13:31pondlifeThen list the groups with rockbox in
13:13:33BigBambipondlife: Cool, cheers
13:13:51pondlifeYou need to be subscribed to the ML to post, but you can do that without the e-mail enabled.
13:14:17linuxstbpondlife: Looks like it needs reclassifying though...
13:14:33pondlifeIt's been there a long time...
13:14:36linuxstbIs the announce mailing list still active?
13:14:49pondlifeI don't check that one
13:15:36pondlifeThe last message was "Rockbox 2.3 released"
13:15:44pondlifeA bit dead, then
13:16:26pondlifeDid Archos ever get round to shipping Rockbox?
13:17:43pondlifeZagor: I like your "Release" messages, very nice
13:18:30Zagorit's been a while :)
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13:18:50pondlifeYes, but a nice little feature list..
13:18:58*pondlife gets nostalgic for red led dead
13:20:34*Crash91 found this online, useful for improving accesibilty
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13:36:26pixelmaheh, the reply to Neon John doesn't argue about the language but demonstrates why abbreviations are bad. Somehow ironic...
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13:43:14pixelmaor maybe this was on purpose
13:44:23*gevaerts finally figures out what a JBR is...
13:44:54Bagderhehe, old-school rockbox abbreviation...
13:45:43gevaertsMaybe one more gsoc student application test ?
13:46:20gevaerts"check out rockbox and compile for JBR"
13:46:55Bagder"check out rockbox and compile test_fps for JBR"
13:50:26 Quit jcollie ("Ex-Chat")
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13:51:26linuxstbOr a real test - "check out rockbox and compile test_codec for JBR"
13:51:37gevaertsDo we actually want to get students ?
13:52:15Bagderwell, last year's students did provide good chunks useful code...
13:52:35linuxstbWell, two of them did...
13:53:39linuxstbWe were discussing this last night though - none of the projects seem that exciting this year...
13:54:10gevaertsMaybe get a student to write USB audio ?
13:54:21peturusb host
13:54:23linuxstbIs that 3 months work though?
13:54:28linuxstb(to gevaerts0
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13:55:38gevaertsDepends. You can go pretty far with it (support recording from FM,...), and if that still isn't enough work, I hope to have usb host ready by then, so we will want host-side usb audio
13:57:44gevaertsI think actual USB host would be a nice project as well, except (a) I want to have that earlier, and (b) there's no guarantee that we know enough about the hardware to actually get it to work (and that's not really fair if a student gets evaluated on results), and (c) it requires specific players, which the student might or might not have access to (maybe a weak reason)
13:58:28Bagderthe students get 4500 USD, I do think they can be expected to pay 100-200 USD for a target if they don't have one
13:58:35gevaertsAlso, for audio, the current driver doesn't support isochronous yet, so the student would have to do that as well
13:58:54Bagderwe denied one of the students target funding last year
13:59:00gevaertsBagder: yes, that's why that is a weak reason.
13:59:36Bagderyeps, I just wanted to clarify that I agree ;-)
13:59:44*gevaerts runs to a university to enroll, just to be able to get paid to work on rockbox for three months
13:59:50*pondlife too
14:00:05gevaertsCan you be mentor and student at the same time ?
14:00:22*gevaerts somehow expected that
14:00:28pondlifePlus you can't easily get hold of an H300, so the USB port I'd like isn't so easy.
14:00:55Bagdera worthy gsoc test: "get a h300" ;-)
14:01:03gevaertspondlife: gigabeat F has it as well. That's the one I plan to work on
14:01:13pondlifeSame Philips chip?
14:01:31*gevaerts looks
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14:01:58linuxstbgevaerts: Have you thought about buying a gigabeat S to get USB working there?
14:02:02*petur would be a bit surprised
14:02:25*pondlife too
14:02:32gevaertslinuxstb: as far as I know it just misses the right device enable settings, and I'm no good at those
14:02:48gevaertsWhy is this kind of info not on the DeviceChart page ?
14:03:03linuxstbBecause you haven't added it yet...
14:04:05pondlife might be half useful
14:04:23pondlifePhilips ISP1362
14:04:44peturpondlife: the gigabeat host controller = S3C2440
14:04:54*gevaerts is correcting the datasheet URL now
14:05:07pondlifeAh. Two halves of a GSoC projects then.
14:05:13pondlifeproject, even
14:05:41desowingevaerts: students get 500USD at the beginning, so it could be used to buy some target ;)
14:05:41linuxstbBagder: Have you submitted the Rockbox SoC application yet?
14:05:55linuxstbYep - they don't need food...
14:06:02*petur clicks and is surprised by the page
14:06:57gevaertsBoth the ISP1362 and the S3C2440 seem to be OHCI based
14:08:36LinusNpetur: that is because attaching html documents is a very common wiki spamming method
14:08:45LinusNso we don't allow it
14:08:59peturI saw... the attachment link at the bottom works ok
14:10:56*gevaerts looks forward to reading all 160 pages of the OHCI spec
14:14:43Beta2KWhat is GSoC?
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14:15:41*gevaerts apoligises for using an ETLA
14:16:49 Quit midgey ()
14:17:03Beta2KWhat's a ETLA?
14:17:34gevaertsTLA is "Three Letter Acronm", ETLA is "Extended TLA", so four (or more) letter acronym
14:18:22peturso ETLA is an ETLA
14:18:30LinusNwhich in turn is a PLJ
14:18:40*petur catches tail
14:18:42LinusNProfoundly Lame Joke
14:18:46Beta2KHum, wish I'd know about GSoC when I was in school...
14:19:20*gevaerts notices it's now exactly one month since USB storage started (somewhat) working, and gives everyone a beer to celebrate
14:20:52*preglow is impressed by aotuv vorbis
14:21:02*preglow accepts a beer
14:21:17Beta2KWhat kind of beer?
14:21:50preglowa westvleteren, surely :V
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14:22:04Beta2KNever heard of that one...
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14:22:17petureven we have troubles getting that one :/
14:22:35preglowyeah, those monks are stubborn
14:23:59Beta2KWho is working on the Gigabeat flash bootloader?
14:30:48*gevaerts collects all beer that hasn't been picked up, gives half to petur, and drinks the other half
14:31:11*petur hands half of his share to preglow
14:31:35peturbetter take it all, there's a shop around the corner here :p
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15:04:08markunBeta2K: kkurbjun
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15:12:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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15:14:11Beta2KThanks markun
15:15:03LambdaCalculus37Morning, everyone!
15:16:36gevaertsGood afternoon, LambdaCalculus37 ;)
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15:18:40pondlifeGood afternoon, everyone!
15:19:05*petur waits for a goodnight from somebody in india or beyond
15:19:24LambdaCalculus37Hi pondlife!
15:20:18pondlifeHi, and bye
15:20:25pondlifeLunch time at last
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15:37:50skbohrahi everyone
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15:39:48linuxstbGood evening.
15:40:14skbohragood evening
15:40:15peturmarkun: re Meizu, it was the mp3 players they were after:
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15:43:00LambdaCalculus37petur: It was all about patents, wasn't it?
15:44:04LambdaCalculus37petur: This is one of the reasons why I don't use MP3s anymore.
15:44:29LambdaCalculus37Except when it comes to my Archos.
15:44:37preglowwhy can't the cabbiev2 volume indicator reach the top on h120?
15:44:58peturhmmm my whole music collection is in mp3 320kbps vbr...
15:45:41LambdaCalculus37Mine is mostly Vorbis Q5 VBR.
15:45:52peturcabbiev2 volume sucks - /me wants numbers
15:46:09GodEaterso don't use Cabbiev2 ?
15:46:58linuxstbpetur: 320kbps vbr? I thought 320kbps was the max bitrate ?
15:47:22peturyes, it is vbr without limit ;)
15:47:29peturie max 320
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15:48:13linuxstbHow does the encoder know when to use lower bitrate packets?
15:48:38peturyou give it a quality factor (I used 'best')
15:48:54linuxstbIsn't 'best' just 320kbps cbr though?
15:49:17peturno, the files are vbr....
15:50:08pixelmapreglow: because the .wps has a "bug" - the volume conditional is used wrong which is most noticable on targets which only go up to 0dB
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15:50:49pixelmajust noticed now that I look at the m:robe100 port (which was based off the 160x128 greyscale version)
15:56:32amiconnlinuxstb: Freeformat allows >320kbps
15:57:07amiconn(but I don't know which player(s) support freeformat bitstreams, if any)
15:57:35LambdaCalculus37amiconn: IIRC CDex also allows you to rip CDs at > 320kbps.
15:58:50linuxstbamiconn: Seems libmad does...
16:03:47preglowwhy would you want >320kbps?
16:04:39linuxstbI doubt many people do...
16:04:56preglowyou'd have to be mad
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16:05:28LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Paging Mr. pondlife.... Mr. pondlife, you have a phone call at the front desk.
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16:17:34pondlifeLambdaCalculus37: ?
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16:18:43LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Last updated to r16538... still getting the occasional misbehaving with album playback.
16:19:06LambdaCalculus37Once in a while, a track will repeat itself and the x of y counter counts up one.
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16:19:48pondlifeYes, me too
16:20:09pondlifeExactly the same symptoms as before, but much less often
16:20:27pondlifeNot seen it on the sim yet either
16:20:51LambdaCalculus37pondlife: I haven't seen it in the sim, either.
16:21:18pondlifePerhaps I should undo that fix locally, then it will misbehave more often and in the sim, so I can work on the underlying issue (which must still be there)
16:21:58*gevaerts reminds people that you can now actually have realtime logf output from PP502x players
16:22:04pondlifeDid this only start happening when Nico_P improved the track skip responsiveness, or did the occasional problem predate that?
16:22:13pondlifegevaerts: I have no PP player, sadly
16:22:18linuxstbgevaerts: None of our playback hackers have a PP target though...
16:22:35linuxstbI think they have Gigabeat Fs though...
16:22:46pixelmaNico_P now has LinusN's Video...
16:22:54pondlifeThe Gigabeat doesn't seem to show this particular issue - not yet anyway.
16:23:00linuxstbpixelma: Ah yes... No excuse then.
16:23:03pondlifeLike the sim, it's just too fast
16:23:06Nico_PI've tried the logf
16:23:30Nico_Pit opens a lot of debugginf possibilities, but I don't have much hacking time ATM
16:24:06Nico_Pmaybe this week end though
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16:24:33pondlifeNico_P: Maybe start by attacking auto-change dir? At least that fails often
16:25:27*LambdaCalculus37 has lag
16:25:40pondlifeI still feel that the auto_change_dir and automatic_skip global vars should vanish, ultimately..
16:25:54*pondlife has lag too, he blames DevConPub3
16:28:00LambdaCalculus37pondlife: When Nico_P improved the track skip.
16:28:34pondlifeAre you sure? I recall very occasional problems, which I think predate that.
16:28:58pondlifePerhaps you could run the previous revision?
16:30:08LambdaCalculus37pondlife: I think you may be right, then.
16:31:16pondlifeHmm, is down?
16:31:35pondlifeI'm getting pings, but no site
16:33:22skbohraits not down
16:33:35pondlifeIs it very slow?
16:33:48pondlifeLike, minutes?
16:34:07gevaertsI cant't seem to get new connections either. The irc log page I have open still updates though
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16:34:39pondlifeSVN is ok
16:34:50pondlifeI'll use that
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16:35:16skbohraya i think its down right now
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16:36:13gevaertsI thik it's just extremely slow
16:36:14*pondlife builds r16422
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16:38:27makdaknifeopen for me... but it did take a while
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16:39:37pondlifeSeems ok now
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16:42:19*LambdaCalculus37 hates severe lag
16:43:57*LambdaCalculus37 goes to check the log to see what he missed
16:46:37pondlifeLambdaCalculus37: If you could build and run r16422 for a while, that would be useful
16:47:09LambdaCalculus37pondlife: I can't build right now (no laptop on me), but I can download it. and run it.
16:47:24pondlifeI can build for you, which target?
16:47:43LambdaCalculus37pondlife: iPod video 30GB.
16:48:45LambdaCalculus37pondlife: How do you want to send it?
16:49:12pondlifeI'll make it available for download
16:50:28pondlifeProbably not, just super-slow NTHell
16:50:31pixelmaNico_P: got a wps parser question. I see that the %bp tag is only enabled for targets with CONFIG_CHARGING, wouldn't it make sense for the Ondio too which has no charging but can be run off USB power?
16:51:13pixelmaI mean the menu status bar shows that state too
16:52:27*pondlife wants a WPS tag for CPU boosted or not
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16:52:40pixelmaI'm not sure if a different icon is used there though
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16:58:19pondlifeLambdaCalculus37: Could you try to download"> ?
16:58:29pondlifeSee what speed you get
16:58:37pondlifeProbably s l o o o w
17:00:37LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Oh damn, it's slow. :)
17:00:46LambdaCalculus37Averaging 50KB/s.
17:01:30*LambdaCalculus37 has the file successfully downloaded and is extracting it to his iPod now
17:01:33makdaknifeaveraging 25kbps :-(
17:02:01pondlifeLambdaCalculus37: That was quick enough
17:02:17pondlifeDid you get it intact?
17:02:36LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Yes, I managed to open it and extract it with no troubles.
17:03:07pondlifeNow play music
17:03:08 Quit Zagor ("Client exiting")
17:03:20pondlifeAnd see it it does anything silly
17:03:41*LambdaCalculus37 picks an album and plays
17:03:49pondlifeA long album
17:04:17LambdaCalculus37A long album, you say? Will do.
17:04:32pondlifeWell, >32MB
17:04:32LambdaCalculus37I know just the album. :)
17:04:45pondlifeOne you like all the tracks, and know well
17:05:28LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Downloaded Nine Inch Nails "Ghosts I-IV" earlier. Q5 FLAC, 36 tracks, gapless.
17:05:32LambdaCalculus37Using that for the test.
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17:12:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:14:45 Quit wisp_sh (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:14:53LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Three tracks in; so far so good.
17:15:22pondlifeI expect we'll need to listen to many albums before it fails.
17:15:28pondlife(If it fails.)
17:15:46pondlifeWith SVN I've only had the problem twice
17:16:11pondlifeAnd I run playback near-continuously whilst I work
17:16:52LambdaCalculus37I'm always listening to music at work, too.
17:17:28pondlifeProblem is, we can never have certainty. Only if it fails can we get a result.
17:17:48pondlifeBut if it works ok for a week, that's probably a good sign
17:18:07*pondlife wonders if he can resist upgrading for a whole week
17:18:19pondlifeNobody better commit any good features.
17:18:26 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:19:56LambdaCalculus37Yes, that's right! No one commit any good features that'll make me or pondlife want to update! :)
17:26:26LambdaCalculus37pondlife: At track 6 of 36; still watching for any silliness.
17:35:49LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Track 10 now; still playing correctly.
17:36:17pondlifeIt's ok. you only need to let me know if it fails... ;)
17:36:26pondlifeThat's what I'll do.
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18:16:46*gevaerts now has an ipid video, and starts coding new interesting features
18:17:09gevaertsAlso an ipod...
18:18:00LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Welcome to the iPod club. :)
18:19:48gevaertsBuilding a bootloader now (I don't feel like using a downloaded build)
18:20:57LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: I'll help test your work.
18:21:40gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: you can't, you have to stay on this old revision ;)
18:21:56pondlifeLambdaCalculus37: Avoid temptation...
18:23:55LambdaCalculus37Must... resist....
18:24:23LambdaCalculus37Can't... lose... control....!
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18:28:13Bagder"Thank you for signing up your organization with the Google Summer of Code."
18:28:20 Quit midgey ()
18:29:39Bagderapplication submitted!
18:31:28*linuxstb sits back and waits for fame, fortune and free labour
18:31:40scorche|shso did you end up putting a mentor list on there, or just figure people will apply after we are accepted?
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18:33:15*linuxstb reads the timeline and sees we have 10 days to wait to know if we're accepted
18:33:38Bagderscorche: it's easier to just let people add themselves as mentors
18:33:45*gevaerts now has three players running rockbox
18:33:54Bagderor at least not do it at this point
18:34:17linuxstbgevaerts: Not bad for a month's work...
18:34:25LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: c200, Gigabeat, and iPod video, correct?
18:34:27scorche|shgevaerts: tis a good start ;)
18:34:46gevaertsI decided to go for a USE_ROCKBOX_USB high-speed build right away
18:35:03gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: correct. I need to update the RockboxTesting page
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18:36:11gevaertsThe manual is missing "installing from svn" in the installation chapter, for if you don't want to download ipodpatcher
18:36:55linuxstbcd rbutil/ipodpatcher && make ipodpatcher && ./ipodpatcher -a ../../build-bootloader/bootloader.ipod
18:37:14davecan somebody help me? i've got a 5.5g ipod and the rockboy is too slow... i dont know why...
18:37:18LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Adding that may drive some new users crazy. As if the manual doesn't do that already. :)
18:37:19gevaertsI did figure it out ;)
18:37:33scorche|shdave: define "too slow"
18:38:01davethat game is faster on my gba..
18:38:07linuxstbdave: I believe it's normal for Rockboy not to be fullspeed
18:38:09daveso mutch faster
18:38:12scorche|shof course it will be...
18:38:22scorche|shthe gba is running it natively...not emulating
18:38:34daveyeahyeah i know
18:38:48davebut the sounds are bad too
18:38:59scorche|shthat is a known issue
18:39:02LambdaCalculus37dave: So shut sound off.
18:39:04linuxstbdave: Yes, rockboy sucks...
18:39:12pondlifeIf you've got a GBA, use that :)
18:39:19scorche|shwe dont really have any current developers for rockboy at the moment
18:39:38daveok i see
18:40:19daveand... how can i install that patches on the rockbox, for ex: doom etc?
18:40:27scorche|shI'm sorry dave, we can't let you do that.
18:40:42scorche|sh(sorry..couldnt resist)
18:40:56pondlifedave: Doom is included, you just need the maps
18:41:27pixelmasomeone who's seen Rockboy on an Archos Recorder knows what real slow is... ;)
18:41:43daveokok.. i saw a scroll wheel patch for the doom i want to install it thats all
18:41:52 Quit Siku ()
18:42:00scorche|shdave: see the SimpleGuideToCompiling wiki page
18:42:10pondlifeOK, you need to be able to compile your own Rockbox first
18:42:24pondlifes/maps/wads a few lines up
18:42:40LambdaCalculus37pixelma: I saw Rockbox on my JBR. *Damn* slow. :)
18:44:08*gevaerts doesn't have enough usb ports on his laptop
18:44:39pixelmaLambdaCalculus37: my Ondio doesn't have it - too few buttons. But I tested ZXBox on it and only later I saw Rockboy on a Recorder and my impression was that ZXBox (which is disabled for all Archos) is even a bit faster
18:44:44*scorche|sh hands gevaerts a Tardis USB hub
18:44:50 Quit pondlife ("Leaving.")
18:46:53LambdaCalculus37Curious: does the H320 have any other method of resetting, besides the reset pin?
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18:47:14*gevaerts thanks scorche|sh for the Tardis hub and tries to plug it in, but it seems the cable got lost at some other time
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18:58:49davem leaving.. bye all
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19:00:16*amiconn reminds gevaerts that rockbox' high speed usb mode doesn't seem to like hubs
19:00:23gevaertsIt seems that signal quality is better for my ipod than for my sansa
19:00:48*gevaerts will go and find his hub soon
19:00:55linuxstbgevaerts: Did you notice which ipod video it is? (512 or 2048 byte sectors)
19:01:02*BigBambi is impressed by the rate at which gevaerts' has acquired targets :)
19:01:28gevaertslinuxstb: 512 byte sectors (I had to check, it was a HFS one)
19:01:49gevaertsAccording to the apple website, the serial number says it's a 5G
19:01:53amiconn30 or 60 GB?
19:03:29gevaertsBigBambi: I'm slowing down now, although H10s seem to be cheap, so I might get one as well
19:03:46BigBambiWell you can never have too many :)
19:04:03Horschtno but you can spend too much
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19:04:48*amiconn needs to find a way to trick gevaerts into buying an iriver H300 ;)
19:07:05*gevaerts checks ebay, but wants to know what feature amiconn needs
19:07:16amiconnUSB host...
19:07:54amiconnI don't really use it much, but it's the one feature of the H300 OF rockbox doesn't support yet
19:08:07gevaertsThat should be OHCI (the SoC spec says so), so once it works on my gigabeat, it should be trivial to get it to work on H300
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19:08:41amiconnYeah, provided that we get the inits right
19:09:08*gevaerts doesn't like these inits
19:09:16amiconnThe gigabeat is also OHCI?
19:10:12 Join tvelocity [0] (
19:10:54gevaertsThat's what the S3C2440A spec says. It just has one page of register addresses, and refers to the OHCI spec for details
19:11:49amiconnThat means it's fullspeed only, correct?
19:12:24amiconnISP1362 is also fullspeed only
19:13:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:13:11toffe82the usb from the cpu is only available on the dock, the other one go through the usb 2 ata bridge
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19:14:30gevaertsTrue. It looks like the gigabeat implements some kind of hub logic in its dock. It _should_ be possible to use host usb directly through the dock connector, of you manage to get 5V from somewhere.
19:15:05toffe82ther is no 5v output direct from the connector
19:15:28toffe82only 4,2V, not enough to power a usb key for example
19:15:41gevaertsMaybe a battery pack ? 4.2V is indeed out of spec
19:16:10toffe82I have all the component to make the interface but never had time to do it, but now that I find the connector, I will try to do it
19:17:36toffe82gevaerts: if you are interested , I have all the wiring of the gigabeat F (almost all) didn't put it on the wiki because i is not really finished
19:18:58gevaertstoffe82: I can't really use it right now. For host support, the dock is sufficient, and I'm not especially handy when soldering is involved.
19:18:58 Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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19:22:16 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:22:44toffe82do I miss something ?
19:23:31*amiconn recommends the fine logs
19:23:37gevaertstoffe82: I can't really use it right now. For host support, the dock is sufficient, and I'm not especially handy when soldering is involved.
19:23:56*gevaerts isn't sure if toffe82 got that before
19:24:09*bertrik is sorry for saying no
19:25:47 Quit Arathis (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:26:13amiconnjhMikeS: ping
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19:28:25 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
19:28:45*LambdaCalculus37 managed to make it through an entire album on r16422 without a single problem
19:30:35gevaertsHalf of the h300s on ebay have rockbox installed
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19:38:02LambdaCalculus37gevarts: You serious?
19:38:06*LambdaCalculus37 goes to look
19:39:27SteveGercakHello Everyone I am writing here to ask for write permission... I hope I am in the correct area... let me know if I am not
19:40:46gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: at least for the ones I find (i.e. those that are willing to send to Belgium)
19:41:06LambdaCalculus37SteveGerack: You are. Your wiki name?
19:41:51*LambdaCalculus37 stated the obvious :)
19:41:52SteveGercakSteveGercak is my Wiki name
19:41:59LambdaCalculus37One moment.
19:42:30 Quit Horscht ("I got raided by the FBI and all i got is this lousy quit message")
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19:43:19LambdaCalculus37SteveGercak: Done. Welcome to the wiki! No spamming, now! :)
19:44:13SteveGercakLambdaCalculus37: Thank You and ofcourse not :)
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19:51:11*gevaerts is now testing with a hub, and sees the problems amiconn mentionned
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19:56:29amiconnIt seems that I have a working solution for the PP5002 crash bug :D
19:56:42amiconnOh man, PP5002 is really broken in some areas....
19:57:11pixelmalow_light: I was just looking around for an m:robe100 owner...
19:57:15LambdaCalculus37amiconn: What's your solution?
19:57:41amiconnThe problem is indeed that it crashes if the instruction that puts it to sleep is located at xxxxxxx0, i.e. at a cache line boundary
19:58:17amiconnSo I introduced a short sequence that ensures the instruction that *actually* puts it to sleep is never located at xxxxxxx0
19:59:25 Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
19:59:54amiconnI test the PC register, and use a streq / strne pair so that it always picks the one that's not located at xxxxx0
20:00:19amiconnUnfortunately, a simple solution using .align doesn't work, for 2 reasons
20:01:15amiconn(1) On arm, .align doesn't pad with NOPs in a code section, and the optional padding value is a byte, not a word
20:02:17amiconn(2) Even if that worked, linking can change alignment later, because code sections aren't padded to cache-lines per object file (like e.g. on SH)
20:02:53 Quit BobShield (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:03:50 Join ender` [0] (
20:05:22*gevaerts decides he doesn't want a PP5002-based player
20:07:41 Quit japc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:07:50*amiconn would like to see firewire supported on the ipods which have that
20:08:39*LambdaCalculus37 already has enough PP-based players
20:09:59*gevaerts won't be tricked into writing firewire drivers
20:10:15 Join BobShield [0] (
20:12:20 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:12:33amiconnAnyone around with a 3rd Gen ipod?
20:12:41 Join nicktastique [0] (n=nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic)
20:12:41*Beta2K sujests to gecaerts that he write a firewire driver
20:14:00peturamiconn: fwiw, the battery benchmarks on my H10 with or without powermanagement are identical, so the microdrive does its own thing. I wonder if this setting has any effect on any target (did anybody ever test?)
20:14:25amiconnIt does for sure on targets without hdd poweroff
20:14:37amiconnDid you didable hdd poweroff for your test?
20:15:07 Join midgey [0] (
20:15:11peturthat wouldn have been realistic
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20:15:27low_lightpixelma: yes
20:15:28SSnakehi all
20:15:55amiconnpetur: You need to disable it in order to see a difference...
20:16:10peturbut why?
20:16:37peturif it doesn't have effect in *normal use*, I don't care about special unrealistic cases
20:16:49amiconnNot all targets have hdd poweroff
20:17:10peturpoint taken
20:17:30SSnakei've a really bad problem with a menu macro:MENUITEM_FUNCTION_DYNTEXT raises an error from the linker
20:17:48amiconnThe Players don't in svn, because some player crash when enabling it (mine doesn't, so my private builds do have it), The FM/v2 don't, for a rather special reason (wrong wiring)
20:17:51SSnakebut all goes good when i try compile a sim build
20:18:00peturmoot point anyway because it looks like the powermanagement detection is good
20:18:17amiconnThe FM/v2 *can* power off the hdd, but if the hdd is powered off, battery voltage cannot be measured
20:18:27 Join mcuelenaere [0] (
20:19:16*amiconn wonders why mpegplayer refuses to work...
20:19:46SSnakeanyone can help me try to figure out where's the problem?
20:20:00*amiconn would need an spc file to check whether mpegplayer or dualcore is the problem...
20:20:17amiconnAfaik spc is the only other place that already uses dualcore
20:20:18SSnake undefined reference to `memcpy'
20:20:18SSnakecollect2: ld returned 1 exit status
20:20:28gevaertsSSnake: just to verify, did you run make clean ?
20:20:37SSnakeyes of course
20:20:49SSnakei've tried deleting all build dir
20:21:33SSnakeit seems nobody used this macro menu in a plugin ever
20:21:34LambdaCalculus37amiconn: I can send you an SPC file to test.
20:22:29SSnakethe compilation goes ok, only the linkage brakes when tries to resolve memcpy....
20:22:39gevaertsSSnake: memcpy should be there.
20:22:42 Quit nicktastic (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:22:54pixelmalow_light: PM
20:23:02amiconnsslashes: So this is in a plugin you're writing?
20:23:03SSnakebut unfornutaley in my code there's no memcpy so some macro may call it and can't find it
20:23:26amiconnWell, gcc sometimes uses memcpy internally, e.g. for struct copying
20:23:28SSnakeMENUITEM_FUNCTION_DYNTEXT used in a plugin
20:24:13amiconngevaerts: memcpy is one of the 4 essential functions that the environment must provide when compiling with -freestanding
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20:25:09SSnakemmmm probably my makefile is not good.....? I've copied it from sudoku and edited accordingly
20:25:27 Join roolku [0] (
20:25:37amiconnno, that's not a makefile problem
20:25:42SSnakebut the problem is not in cc it's in LD
20:25:50SSnakethe error is raised by the linker
20:25:51amiconnYour plugin probably has a global plugin api pointer?
20:25:51 Join spiorf [0] (
20:25:56amiconnYes of course
20:26:14amiconnGcc uses memcpy, and the linker cannot link to it because it's not there
20:26:22SSnakeyes as usual i created a rb variable declared blobally
20:26:36SSnakeyes exactly
20:26:51amiconnThen put the following line directly below that (and initialise rb as soon as possible):
20:27:34SSnakelet's see... (cross fingers)
20:27:37*gevaerts wonders if there's an area of the rockbox code that amiconn isn't familiar with
20:29:27LambdaCalculus37amiconn: Still want an SPC file to test?
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20:30:02zemoHello, I was wondering what kind of text files rockbox can read if it can read any at all?
20:30:14LambdaCalculus37zemo: Plain text files.
20:30:47zemothank you. Is there a specific plugin I need to use or just select the file like a song?
20:30:58LambdaCalculus37Just select the file in the file viewer.
20:31:10zemoThank you very much. That will be all.
20:31:12amiconnLambdaCalculus37: Yes please. Would be helpful :)
20:31:13zemoHave a nice day
20:31:22LambdaCalculus37amiconn: PM
20:31:28 Quit zemo (Client Quit)
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20:32:59XavierGryou must be braindead (or ignorant) having an H300 or H100 and not installing rockbox on it.
20:33:29XavierGroops that must have been said 30 minutes ago :\
20:34:07 Join linuxstb [0] (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb)
20:37:33SSnakemmmmmmmmmm another problem the compiler: error: syntax error before '->' token
20:37:33 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:38:12SSnakejust in the point where i put MEM_FUNCTION_WRAPPERS
20:38:40SSnakeany suggestion?
20:39:18linuxstbYou _are_ doing MEM_FUNCTION_WRAPPERS(rb) ?
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20:41:20SSnakestruct plugin_api* rb;
20:41:38 Quit nicktastic (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:42:57SSnakedamn i'm going to be mad
20:43:35low_lightroolku: does power off work for you now?
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20:44:03roolkulow_light: I am just about to try
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20:45:52faemirIs there anyway to make the rockbox database browse faster?
20:46:17amiconnSomething is definitely hosed wrt dualcore support on PP5002
20:46:48linuxstbfaemir: Have you enabled the "load to RAM" option?
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20:49:12low_lightroolku: power-off has worked flawlessly for me since yesterday. It takes a bit longer than my other targets, probably because of the slow disk.
20:49:37roolkulow_light: yes, it is taking its time, but us coming through eventually :)
20:50:31faemirlinuxstb: yes
20:51:36roolkulow_light: not sure it is about the disk - I have a patch that uses the display LED as a HDD LED and it is not flashing
20:51:55roolkulow_light: but it is great not to have to wear out the reset button :)
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20:54:38SSnakei tried cleaning & building sim: error: expected '=', ',', ';', 'asm' or '__attribute__' before '->' token
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20:56:42faemirlinuxstb is there anything I can do?
20:59:07Lloreanfaemir: What are you finding slow about it?
20:59:39faemirwhen I click on database it saying some finding thing for like 1 second, and then just browsing folders feels very unsnappy and slow.
20:59:46 Quit spiorf ("Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)")
20:59:49faemirAlso, scrolling is very slow
20:59:52faemirand not smooth
21:00:46LloreanWhat build version are you on?
21:00:57faemirI /just/ updated.
21:01:08linuxstb_Do you also have dircache enabled?
21:01:16 Quit linuxstb (Nick collision from services.)
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21:01:21 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:01:21*Llorean really wishes people would just answer a number for that.
21:01:44faemirlinuxstb: dircache?
21:02:12faemirLlorean: r16544
21:02:32LloreanSee, now we know you updated properly
21:02:40LloreanBut, just to be technical, that's not the latest.
21:02:50LloreanSo, if the latest commit *had* been a fix for that, you'd have been in trouble. :-P
21:03:05faemirYou are telling me the latest was less than 30 seconds ago? >_>
21:03:33LloreanThe latest is building right now.
21:03:42LloreanBut it's in the changelog, and also available to anyone who builds themselves.
21:03:52faemirok, the latest /available/ at the moment via rbutil. Happy? XD
21:03:58LloreanAnyway, dircache might help, it's explained in the manual.
21:04:08Lloreanfaemir: How 'bout just giving SVN revisions in the future, so there's no confusion?
21:04:18faemirLlorean: sure thing ;)
21:04:43faemirOoo, I see icons by the menu.
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21:04:44linuxstbfaemir: It's called "directory cache" in the manual (I think..)
21:04:49LloreanPeople have a variety of meanings for latest. I often run into people who mean "the latest DAILY" with it, and that's all kinds of difficulty. Sorry if I'm a bit touchy on the matter, but it's a vague subject without revisions.
21:05:23faemirLlorean: yeh, It was my fault, sorry.
21:05:23 Join spiorf [0] (
21:05:44faemirOoo, I know someone with an mrobe:100, when was that available to put rockbox on?
21:06:33linuxstbIt's not available yet - I think it's just in need of a manual and install instructions though.
21:07:16faemirLlorean: I can't find directory cache in the manual, what is the easiest way to search for it in the manual?
21:07:48linuxstbfaemir: What player are you running Rockbox on?
21:08:01faemirlinuxstb: ipod v5.5gen 30gb
21:08:31roolkufaemir: m:robe 100 is not official, but you can already download/install it following the instructions on the wiki.
21:08:58faemirroolku: cool, I'll probably wait for it to be official, since as my friend will need help setting it up and stuff :)
21:09:21pixelmaroolku: you were interested in the cabbiev2 for the m:robe100... just posted something to the tracker
21:09:32 Join mcuelenaere [0] (
21:09:40*roolku goes to have a look
21:10:20linuxstbfaemir: Section 7.6.3
21:11:11 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
21:11:48peturamiconn: ran a build that re-reads identify_info after power-on and doesn't set powermanagement, and words 85/87 are the same as with an svn build....
21:12:32amiconnThat doesn't necessarily mean all HDDs will have it enabled by default
21:13:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:14:09 Quit midgey ()
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21:17:15peturanything against committing the patch? Test on ipod nano first?
21:18:06SSnakeI T W O R K S !! Hail to amiconn lord of Rockbox dev :P
21:18:24amiconnpetur: I'd prefer that
21:18:53peturis he the only one with a nano?
21:19:02 Quit bertrik ("off to play")
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21:19:09amiconnLlorean also has one iirc
21:19:16 Part PuppiesOnAcid
21:19:16faemirlinuxstb: it's still jerky, or do I have to wait a bit after the reboot?
21:20:03Lloreanpetur: If you can provide me a build, I can test for you. can't build right now. Do have a nano
21:20:16LloreanAnd oddly enough it's with me, and charged, for the first time in two or three months
21:20:19pixelmascorche too
21:20:33peturalright, one nano build coming up...
21:20:57faemirAlso, is it possible to edit the navigation controls for rockbox?
21:21:28linuxstbfaemir: Only by changing the code, there are no settings.
21:21:42faemirEh. I can't be bothered :P
21:21:52scorche|shyar..i am at work today though, so no nano around
21:22:09faemirI just prefer the original firmware menu/select instead of rewind/fastfoward.
21:22:21Slasherifaemir: how do you experience that the performance of the db is poor?
21:22:21jhMikeSamiconn: estoy aqui ahora :)
21:22:45amiconnjhMikeS: Did you get your 3rd Gen going again?
21:22:45faemirSlasheri: it takes ages to navigate through folders, especially while music is playing.
21:23:02Slasherifaemir: ah, so you mean that the scrolling is slow?
21:23:19jhMikeSamiconn: not yet. I think I'm going to have to break down and just order the replacement jack module.
21:23:22faemirSlasheri: that, and when I select folders it saying browsing x files found
21:23:26amiconnIt seems like I have a working fix for the PP5002 crashes. See about 90 minutes back in the logs
21:23:57amiconnIt would be nice if the patch could be tested on a 3rd Gen...
21:24:11Slasheriinteresting.. didn't rockbox on ipod utilise both cores when playing something?
21:24:23amiconnI can test myself on 2nd Gen (works) and 1st Gen (currently charging)
21:24:36Slasheri(i haven't had the ipod for long time to try that..)
21:25:04amiconnIt does for SPC files
21:25:06LloreanSlasheri: Not really, no. Nobody's converted any codecs but SPC to use core 2
21:25:14amiconnmpegplayer also uses both cores
21:25:18jhMikeSamiconn: so the only problem is when a core puts itself to sleep but never any with the instruction that wakes it in core_wake?
21:25:30amiconnNo, it's only the sleep
21:25:43SlasheriLlorean: ah, i thought the playback thread already runs on the second core
21:26:05Slasheri(i had that semi-working a long time ago, resulting in ui being as responsive as without playback)
21:26:09 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:26:16roolkupixelma: it looks very good on target, just one comment - the dithering on "box" makes it illegible - maybe try an irregular dithering method (or I think no dithering would be best)
21:26:49amiconnpetur: I'm currently looking at your latest patch, and have some questions
21:27:21LloreanSlasheri: I believe the final decisions was that use of the second core should be left up to the codec itself
21:27:35pixelmaroolku: just saw your latest commit, reminds me that I also want to redo the cards (used in solitaire and blackjack) and didn't think about this first but they should be "inversed" too) :)
21:27:46faemirSlasheri: soo.. any ideas?
21:28:13*jhMikeS doesn't recall a "decision" in that regard.
21:28:14roolkupixelma: I just hope we don't get a monochrome target that isn't reversed - then we are in trouble
21:28:17Lloreanfaemir: Get a non-slow MP3 player.
21:28:31Slasherifaemir: not really. i had a custom scroll acceleration patch on my ipod that worked quite well when playback was not active
21:28:40LloreanjhMikeS: I swear I saw you (as a plural) discussing it, and eventually deciding that it was more flexible that way.
21:28:42Slasheribut i have no idea how the scrolling works now
21:28:49faemirLlorean: if it has 30gb+ then sure I will, just name it :)
21:28:49pixelmaroolku: thanks for the opinion... I'll see what I can do about the logo, just thought that non-dithered makes the logo so important)
21:28:55Lloreanfaemir: Gigabeat F series.
21:29:20faemirLlorean: yeh, I'm waiting for a nice one of those to show up on UK ebay
21:30:09pixelmaroolku: I can't imagine that we get another monochrome target with the exactly same screen size, seems very unusual to me (most things use colour screens now). But you never know...
21:30:10Lloreanpetur: What am I looking for?
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21:30:13Slasheriafter having used ipod for a while, it would still think the iriver h140 is the best dap ever made
21:30:34peturLlorean: just proper operation (no freezing)
21:30:38LloreanSlasheri: If only it had a bit less hiss.
21:30:44roolkupixelma: do you have enough pixel for an outline? that might work instead of dithering
21:30:52Lloreanpetur: Any specific operations that should trigger one?
21:31:00jhMikeSLlorean: I think it was more along the lines of the codec should run 2nd core by default but can switch things if needed for its own purpose.
21:31:23SlasheriLlorean: really? i thought that was one of the best daps in terms of sound quality / snr
21:31:23peturLlorean: 'disk' access
21:31:39pixelmaroolku: not "everywhere", sometimes it's only 2 pixels wide
21:31:42Lloreanpetur: So, if playback starts, things are good?
21:31:51Slasheri(of course if you don't use the remote..)
21:31:56LloreanSlasheri: There's a very significant hiss audible at low volumes on low impedance phones.
21:32:05faemirLlorean: what battery life do they have btw?
21:32:06jhMikeSA heavy decoding job works best if the COP decodes and the CPU does DSP but if the decoding job is lightweight like (WAV) then all could run on COP.
21:32:07pixelmaroolku: in some places, I meant :)
21:32:11Lloreanfaemir: 14-16 hours I'd say
21:32:19peturLlorean: just general use (browsing, playing) for a while
21:32:33SlasheriLlorean: hmm, interesting. i have never noticed that, but probably i don't have that low impedances phones either
21:32:43LloreanjhMikeS: Ah, well that's still though "the codec should decide", right? I didn't say the codecs shouldn't be on the COP. :)
21:32:44roolkupixelma: yes, I was afraid that would be the case
21:32:59faemirLlorean: Woah good deal O_O
21:33:02jhMikeSLlorean: s/should/can :)
21:33:05LloreanSlasheri: I can hear it with CX300s and some Sure's I've got, and other people have confirmed it on theirs. It's really not a problem if you listen about about -40
21:33:29LloreanjhMikeS: I pretty much agree, they all should do as much work as they can on the COP. ;)
21:33:43faemirLlorean: I can sell my ipod, and buy that, and keep the change! XD
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21:34:37SSnakeguys do you prefer a plugin exiting after SYS_USB_CONNECTED ?
21:34:37 Quit low_light (" ajax IRC Client")
21:34:38Lloreanpetur: Browsing around and playback don't seem to cause any obvious problems
21:34:55Lloreanfaemir: And you'd come out ahead both in the power of your DAP and in money. :)
21:34:59roolkupixelma: your USB plug looks great and of the right size without me doing anything about it - I wonder which version it is using
21:35:04jhMikeSThe SPC codec really can only run at all with the heaviest emulations on PP because of the \parallelism.
21:35:07faemirLlorean: damn it I can't remember my ebay account D=
21:35:14peturLlorean: in particular (as I see nano has no ata_power_off): leave it idle for some time and then access the flash (load a plugin? credits plugin?)
21:35:15faemirLlorean: I don't suppose you have one of these?
21:35:15Lloreanfaemir: The Gigabeat F is currently the most powerful (in terms of CPU) of working Rockbox targets.
21:35:27amiconnpetur: (1) Any reason why you removed the CONTROL_nIEN bit from perform_soft_reset? This has been there since the beginning of the drivers/ dir...
21:35:44Lloreanpetur: "some time" being 30 seconds, 255 second, 5 minutes, or some other number?
21:35:57Lloreanfaemir: "one of these"?
21:36:09pixelmaroolku: it's always right aligned, not sure which version it's using, would have to check SOURCES
21:36:09*petur wonders if the nano does spin down
21:36:24amiconnpetur: (2) The features check for advanced power management is wrong now
21:36:41faemirLlorean: a gigabeat F
21:36:48Lloreanfaemir: I've got two, actually. :)
21:36:48amiconn(perhaps an oversight from experimenting?)
21:36:53faemirLlorean: why were they discontinued if they are such good players then? :(
21:37:37LloreanBecause the Gigabeat S is arguably a better one.
21:38:00faemirAre S series supported by rockbox?
21:38:06LambdaCalculus37Not yet.
21:38:33LambdaCalculus37There's a few things left to be done on the S to make it fully work.
21:38:44n1slike making audio work...
21:38:51LambdaCalculus37And a USB stack.
21:39:02faemirn1s: hahaha
21:39:42faemirGigabeat S series look very nice :(
21:39:44LloreanPetur: Seems like leaving it idle for a while has no averse effects.
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21:40:28peturamiconn: 1) you're right, that shouldn't have gone out
21:40:36petur2) must check
21:40:45LambdaCalculus37farmir: You can buy one if you wish, but it may be some time before the port is ready for everyday use.
21:40:56LambdaCalculus37For now, stick with a Gigabeat F.
21:41:14LambdaCalculus37Or a Gigabeat X, even, if you can find one.
21:41:27roolkupixelma: usblogo.104x27x1.bmp
21:41:35LloreanLambdaCalculus37: I'm not *wholly* sure I'd recommend an X
21:41:45roolkupixelma: seems fine to me
21:41:53LloreanBecause there's no developer with one, and because the hardware differences are subtle, sometimes they seem to experience unexpected (and hard to track) behaviour
21:42:14faemirLambdaCalculus37: what is the X series?
21:42:42pixelmathat's probably the one made for the Iriver remote (128 pixels wide, monochrome; can be used for the iFP and ahem the Logik Dax, too)
21:42:55peturamiconn: re 2) must indeed be word 86, have been looking at the wrong bit :( and that will not work :(
21:43:06 Quit hcs ("Leaving.")
21:43:15Lloreanfaemir: Gigabeat X
21:43:20jhMikeSamiconn: is there any precedent in retailos to indicate the sleep shouldn't be at xxxxxxx0?
21:43:45LambdaCalculus37Llorean: I only mention the X series since we also support it, even though it's nearly impossible to find.
21:43:50faemirLlorean: oh right. what is different about it to the F?
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21:44:30amiconnpetur: It must be word 83
21:44:39Lloreanfaemir: Mostly the outside appearance. Different body, slightly bigger screen (but at the same resolution)
21:44:54amiconnjhMikeS: Not sure, as I don't know how the OF loads, hence whether my addresses are correct
21:45:05amiconnIt might copy parts to iram or relocate them otherwise
21:46:07peturamiconn: it was 83, and that didn't work. that was the whole point: finding a bit that does reflect the powermanagement support.
21:46:17jhMikeSdoes having the sleep in IRAM change the behavior?
21:46:57amiconnThat's something I wanted to ask - whether having core_sleep not inlined might be a problem
21:47:23amiconnpetur: Word 83 indicates whether advanced power management is supported, word 86 whether it's enabled
21:47:49amiconnSo your set_feature would only enable it if it's already enabled - certainly not correct
21:47:57peturamiconn: so test both 83 and 86?
21:48:11faemirI think someone should get employed on the iPod team and then steal all of the specifications and stuff.
21:48:42amiconnJust check 83, and additionally the validity of words 85..87 to sort out those ata devices which don't behave
21:48:44peturhmmm that bit in 86 being set just reflects that some drives have powermanagement on by default :/
21:48:57jhMikeSamiconn: not technically but the inlining was worked out to maximize the speed (my benchmarking)
21:49:30amiconnjhMikeS: Okay. Then that means having the function in iram still makes it crash depending on alignment (already tried it)
21:50:00amiconnAnyway, my fix only adds a few instructions and seems to work nicely
21:51:44faemirLlorean: wanna buy an ipod 30gb 5.5gen? XD
21:51:44 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:52:07jhMikeSI just wonder why the alignment never seemed to show a problem earlier
21:52:24amiconnThe bug is present for quite some time now
21:52:43Lloreanfaemir: Sorry, already got the one iPod I'll ever probably own.
21:52:51amiconnMaybe it only hits if both cores are used.
21:53:20LambdaCalculus37I'm not taking another iPod. I'm already getting a third from my dad.
21:53:50faemirLlorean: which is what? :P
21:54:00Lloreanfaemir: Nano, 1st generation.
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21:54:22faemirLlorean: they any good?
21:55:13jhMikeSamiconn: it hits no matter what. I checked that.
21:57:00*petur gets way to many NMI's from real life to concentrate :/
21:57:57*LambdaCalculus37 is off to have a beer at the local watering hole
21:58:03LambdaCalculus37Bye, everybody!
21:58:08 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06)")
21:58:19amiconnjhMikeS: Regarding mpegplayer on dualcore, is the audio decoded on cop and video on cpu, or vice versa?
21:58:33jhMikeSamiconn: audio = CPU, video = COP
21:58:47faemirLlorean: why the hell is the shipping $80?
21:58:52amiconnAh, that explains the skipping on 2nd Gen... :/
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21:59:42amiconnThe greyscale lib is drawing too much cpu now that audio uses core dsp
22:01:01jhMikeSamiconn: Perhaps allow the greylib timer to run on COP? Much easier I think than trying to move audio to COP since the pcm driver needs some careful rework to have it do it.
22:01:36amiconnMight be possible
22:01:53amiconnIn fact that might also help to further speed up other plugins using the greylib
22:02:34amiconnThe problem is to ensure cache consistency
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22:03:04jhMikeSbut then cache hell rears it's head if the plugin isn't expecting it
22:03:10*amiconn thinks that could be a feature to be requested from the greylib now that it takes a features bitmap
22:04:36 Join hcs [0] (n=agashlin@rockbox/contributor/hcs)
22:04:48amiconnThe greylib could make sure its buffers are uncacheable
22:04:48jhMikeS3g was always iffy with the audio. the final optimizations made some videos work without skips regardless of using the core dsp
22:05:17amiconnIt could just convert all buffer addresses internally to use UNCACHED_ADDR
22:05:56jhMikeSthen they must also be cacheline aligned
22:06:01amiconnNot all buffers would need that, just the ones accessed by the isr (values and phases)
22:06:36amiconnThat shouldn't be a problem; I'm already aligning modulo 16 on coldfire, for maximum performance
22:07:56*amiconn wonders how much this would speed up lasma
22:08:23amiconnPlasma is already so fast on mini that it's very blurry
22:09:10amiconnmpegplayer buffering is also on cpu I presume?
22:09:37jhMikeSthe alignment should probably go back to 16 for PP, somewhat unrelated: gigabeat F/X and S need 32 (the ata driver on F/X should be considering the cache lines when using DMA and reading).
22:10:13SlasheriNico_P: hi, i am just rewriting the playback event handling so you don't need to bother about that :)
22:10:32Nico_PSlasheri: nice :)
22:11:15amiconnjhMikeS: Umm, gigabeat shouldn't need to worry, as it's single core... am I missing something?
22:11:23SlasheriNico_P: i just added two generic functions: playback_add_event and playback_remove_event
22:12:40jhMikeSamiconn: same problem there with an uncached buffer sharing a cache line with a cached one
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22:13:17amiconnWhy would you need an uncached buffer at all?
22:13:28jhMikeSperipheral DMA
22:13:39amiconnAh, DMA...
22:14:30amiconnDoes any driver on gigabeat use DMA? Last time I checked, the ata driver didn't
22:15:47jhMikeSit does but only for even-aligned transfers atm. I have a personal version that always uses it though.
22:16:56amiconnIs it faster than the cpu polling driver?
22:17:31jhMikeSthe same but it sleeps and waits for an DMA interrupt wake rather than spinning
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22:17:50amiconnOn coldfire, using DMA for ATA turned out to be slower than using the CPU and proper line bursting
22:18:14 Join axionix [0] (
22:18:22amiconnI also tried DMA auto-align, but that didn't work (data errors, which went away the moment I disabled AA)
22:18:41jhMikeSI did the same for the i2c there since the fast processors burn alot of cycles busy waiting when they could be powered down waiting for a slow peripheral to complete
22:22:14dionoeaAnyone know of potential problems with High Speed rockbox USB support on the iPod Video?
22:22:17amiconnHmm. The timer driver doesn't allow to select the core to use for the timer isr
22:22:41amiconnThat's something that needs to be added...
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22:23:28gevaertsThe manual is missing "installing from svn" in the installation chapter, for if you don't want to download ipodpatcherdionoea: have you already looked at ?
22:23:33amiconnI think I'll remove the priority selection. It only applies to SH1, and there's no real use for it.
22:23:51*gevaerts always gets in trouble when trying to paste something
22:23:56gevaertsdionoea: have you
22:23:58gevaerts+already looked at ?
22:24:56jhMikeSamiconn: coldfire, s3c2440 and imx31 are also capable of prioritizing interrupts but s3c2440 is a bit restrictive
22:24:58dionoeagevaerts: so i'm likely to run into the signal power issue but other than that it's pretty much stable and nobody noticed any hd corruption?
22:25:11gevaertsdionoea: there's some more issues (I will add them soon). (1) it seems to discharge while connected, and (2) it seems unreliable when used behind a hub
22:25:25dionoeaok. Sounds great :)
22:26:06gevaertsdionoea: nobody noticed any hd corruption _when directly connected_. I just saw some myself behind a hub ...
22:26:14*gevaerts doesn't like that
22:26:19jhMikeSamiconn: if that alignment thing works I'd say to just commit the fix
22:26:43amiconnI will test on my 1st Gen when it's charged, then commit
22:27:04*dionoea considers doing a backup before testing more
22:27:16amiconngevaerts: For me it simply doesn't work on the hub. So no data corruption
22:28:10gevaertsamiconn: you're lucky then ;)
22:28:47*jhMikeS is working on code in those sections so wants to "svn resolve" asap :)
22:28:47gevaertsOf course, since I only have my ipod since about six hours, maybe I have bad hardware and don't know it yet
22:28:50amiconnThis PP5002 stabilisation is a precondition for my next greyscale library feature...
22:30:16gevaertsI'll test further once the ipod is charged again
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22:33:45jhMikeSamiconn: I need to know which arm version is being compiled for in order to use certain instructions (like clz which is arm5). I simply made CPU_ARM be defined as 4, 5, etc if it's defined. Any better way to distinguish that you can think of?
22:35:17amiconnHmm, that sounds hackish
22:35:26linuxstbWhy not just introduce a new #define - something like ARM_ARCH?
22:36:01amiconnThere's already CPU_ARM7TDMI - see config.h lines 365ff
22:36:04bluebrotherdang. Half an hour too late :(
22:36:24*bluebrother almost bought a Gigabeat
22:36:38*amiconn fetches a beer
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22:37:26jhMikeSI can do that but to use these instructions I don't want an exhaustive set of tests in the source. arm4, arm5 etc. are better indications of which instructions are useable.
22:37:36PuppiesOnAcidis anyone working on porting rockbox to the new ipod nanos/classics?
22:37:59BagderPuppiesOnAcid: nope
22:38:16PuppiesOnAcidwhy not?
22:38:58dionoeagevaerts: I get quite a few resets. Those are likely to be due to the low signal power issue you mention on the wiki page right?
22:39:05BagderPuppiesOnAcid: ask all the owners of those targets why they don't
22:39:25BagderPuppiesOnAcid: I can guess on the answer: the encryption part is making it very hard
22:42:32jhMikeSmmkay, I'll #define ARM_ARCH 5 for imx31 and #define ARM_ARCH 4 otherwise (are any others not arm4?)
22:43:09linuxstbIsn't imx31 arch 6?
22:43:20jhMikeSyes, oops.
22:43:47linuxstbtcc77x is 5
22:43:59linuxstbNot sure about DM320...
22:44:22jhMikeSwhat about 780?
22:44:50jhMikeSmore thoroughly CPU_TCC780X
22:44:54linuxstbI'm not sure - it has two arm cores (different ones...)
22:45:37jhMikeSare they completely shared memory like PP?
22:46:11linuxstbtcc77x is ARM946E-S, tcc7801 is ARM926EJ-S + ARM946ES
22:46:27linuxstbI've no idea.
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22:48:28linuxstbSo that makes the tcc7801 ARMv5...
22:48:33 Quit japc (Remote closed the connection)
22:48:56linuxstbAnd the DM320 has an ARM926EJ-S core as well...
22:49:55jhMikeSboth cores seem to be ARM5 though different sub-versions.
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22:51:39linuxstbYou mean the "J" part?
22:53:19jhMikeS926je-s has the jazelle DBX stuff/dsp whereas 946e-s only has the dsp (not that I know what that implies atm)
22:53:50jhMikeSis jazelle the Java instructions?
22:54:20Bagderjava instruction mode magic something
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22:58:24jhMikeSI suppose it's not possible to use arm5/6 instructions unless configure uses the correct -mcpu anway and I don't want to mess around that much yet
22:58:35linuxstbI thought it did?
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22:59:16Bagderit does
22:59:26Bagder-mcpu=arm926ej-s etc
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23:01:21n1sYes it should be correct for all our arms
23:02:57roolkugevaerts: I am trying to get the SERIAL_USB to work with windows XP - it tries to install a "composite USB device" but fails with "Device cannot start. (Code 10)". Any ideas, suggestions, things I could try?
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23:04:45gevaertsroolku: I suspect that our serial class is just not complete enough for windows to like it. Problem is that I get confused whenever I read the USB CDC spec.
23:05:07jhMikeSwhy is it defined(CPU_TCC77X) instead of (CONFIG_CPU == TCC77X) ?
23:05:13gevaertsroolku: the composite device is because you also have storage enabled
23:06:08roolkugevaerts: I had #define USB_STORAGE commented out, but there is #define USB_CHARGING_ONLY
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23:08:30jhMikeSah, never mind...general family
23:08:36gevaertsroolku: that could cause it as well. Anyway, that's not the problem. I think windows just expects there to be something which we don't do yet, but I don't know what
23:10:00*gevaerts edits the wiki to mention this
23:10:26amiconnjhMikeS: Not necessarily.
23:10:31roolkugevaerts: I found this - not sure if it any help
23:11:02amiconnE.g. ARM7TDMI and ARM920 are both armv4, but arm7 needs different optimisations than arm9
23:11:04jhMikeSamiconn: I see now it's (CONFIG_CPU == TCC7801) defined CPU_TCC780X etc.
23:12:00amiconnThe architecture versions define which instructions are available, but the instruction timing can change within the same architecture version
23:12:28amiconnThis is some nasty mix-and-match. I don't think there's a simple solution
23:12:40gevaertsroolku: I looked at that at some point as well I think. The relevant documents are in if you want to have a go
23:13:01jhMikeSof course. this is just complicated to fully specify with all the variation.
23:13:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:13:58*gevaerts thinks of doing debug over the HID class, emulating a keyboard.
23:14:41jhMikeSbut some arm5 have DSP instruction and others don't (sort of like coldfire not nescessarily having an EMAC unit)
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23:15:39roolkugevaerts: thanks, maybe another time...
23:16:37PuppiesOnAcidis the rockbox project in need of ipods to do research on?
23:16:47amiconngevaerts: How is usb over serial supposed to work, btw? Does it emulate some usb-serial bridge chipset?
23:17:04*amiconn *thinks* there is no standard class for serial, but isn't sure
23:17:23amiconnI mean serial over usb of course
23:17:56gevaertsamiconn: there is. The Communications Device Class.
23:18:18amiconnHmm. Isn't that meant for modems?
23:18:44gevaertsamiconn: for everything from serial emulation to ATM, via modems and isdn
23:19:00amiconnAnd windows should support that?
23:19:23gevaertsIt should, using usbser.sys.
23:19:24amiconnI have a usb-serial adapter, which needs a special driver
23:20:00n1sPuppiesOnAcid: We are in need of motivated skillfull hackers with said ipods and lots of spare time ;)
23:20:02amiconn(based on the obviously widespread PL2303)
23:20:37*gevaerts isn't entirely sure of all this, since he hasn't actually seen it work yet.
23:22:01*gevaerts has actually seen sort-of USB over serial. USB over hand-soldered DB-9 connectors. Our current signalling problems are nothing compared to what that setup gets
23:22:55amiconnMaybe this is some hint?
23:24:13gevaertsNot related. We don't have (or need) an IAD (== interface association descriptor, needed if you have some complex device that has several interfaces that belong together somehow)
23:25:04gevaertsI think I'll ask bertrik next time he's online. Maybe he knows more.
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23:25:29amiconnHmm, my system doesn't seem to have usbser.sys
23:26:04gevaertsXP or Vista ? In Vista I think it's replaced by something else
23:28:42gevaertsI tried it by pointing windows to this .inf : gevaerts/rockser.inf">
23:30:05*petur has several usb-serial adapters at work, none work 100% stable
23:30:28amiconnMine works, but I had to find an up-to-date driver
23:31:34amiconnThere are 2 main versions of the PL2303 driver. 1.x (which many adapter manufacturers still ship, even though it's stone age), and 2.0 (which I found on the prolific homepage)
23:32:03amiconn1.x caused frequent bluescreens here. 2.0 is stable
23:32:38amiconnBut that's probably OT...
23:32:59peturyes on both ;)
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23:45:28SSnakeinfo needed: when i stop playback to gain memory under plugins....can i fill buffer AND start playback again with an internal menu?
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23:46:56burnninat0ris there a proper place to put flac files for rockbox on an ipod?
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23:48:49bluebrotherBurnninat0r: the same as for all other files applies ... put them whereever you like
23:49:17Burnninat0rok, thanks
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23:53:58Burnninat0rwhat is the best way to handle podcasts on rockbox?
23:54:31 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
23:55:03 Quit Horscht ("I got raided by the FBI and all i got is this lousy quit message")
23:56:36 Join tessarakt [0] (
23:56:43 Quit nplus ("Leaving")

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