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#rockbox log for 2008-03-30

00:00:00 Join kushal_12_27_200 [0] (n=kushal@12.169.180.134)
00:00:35advcomp2019Narc4746751, i think when the sansa in manufacturer mode the operating systems reads it as something else but i do not remember right now
00:00:58scorchethe site will start off clean slate as originally intended...i dont feel like editing hundreds of text files to make them have the correct info for the new site
00:01:03 Quit fyrestorm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:01:05Narc4746751narc, it reads as some USB device.
00:01:09 Join fyre^OS [0] (n=fyre@cpe-68-173-163-201.nyc.res.rr.com)
00:01:17Narc4746751ok, I took off the front cover
00:01:33Narc4746751and on haxx.se there is a picture of the board
00:01:38Narc4746751and the picture has a TI L2 chip
00:01:43Narc4746751which is missing on my player
00:01:58 Join cbr|w [0] (n=cbr@212.98.160.130)
00:02:16scorcheNarc4746751: please express yourself in complete thoughts on a single line...it makes things much easier to read than splitting it up liek that
00:02:30Narc4746751Will do, scorche.
00:02:59advcomp2019Narc4746751, do you know if it is v1 or v2.. i can find a photo of a v2 from the forums if needed
00:03:01Narc4746751I've removed the front cover on my e260 and looked at the circuit board. On haxx.se there is a picture of a TI L2 chip on the front of the board. Mine seems to be missing.
00:03:05Narc4746751it is a v1
00:03:51Narc4746751lol
00:04:01*Narc4746751 puts a big greasy fingerprint right on the LCD
00:04:37advcomp2019look at these photos and see if they look like yours.. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=14064.msg114410#msg114410
00:05:43Narc4746751advcomp2019, the front board does not match. I don't think it's a v2.
00:06:45advcomp2019o ok.. it was just an idea
00:06:54Narc4746751it's OK
00:07:11Narc4746751I wonder what that TI chip does
00:07:28Narc4746751it's U14 on the circuit board
00:08:17mud-rb_could it be the chip for the radio? that's the only thing i know of that some v1 have that others don't
00:09:38Narc4746751mud-rb_, apparently it's a CMOS driver
00:09:50Narc4746751http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/477/SN74LVC244A.php
00:10:22Narc4746751it doesn't show any signs of having been removed either
00:11:05scorcheBagder: isnt it logical that the M3 be placed before the M5 and X5 in the builds page?
00:11:25Bagderyes I guess
00:13:18 Join jrsharp [0] (n=jrsharp@c-68-52-226-233.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)
00:13:42 Join nub [0] (n=drumsocc@cpe-24-169-134-13.rochester.res.rr.com)
00:14:44jrsharphey all... my father-in-law is blind and I've recently started considering getting him an mp3 player of some kind and installing the rockbox firmware with speech stuff... my question is, is there a particular supported device that is recommended?
00:15:35nubanyone know how to get a vid onto a ipod 1st gen?
00:15:41Bagderjrsharp: I'd consider asking on the mailing list, where most of our blind users seem to hang out
00:16:13BagderI'd guess that the ones with actual real buttons are preferred
00:16:34jrsharpover, say, an iPod with a click wheel?
00:16:36*domonok1 recomends jrsharp a device with actual buttons instead of a slidewheel or alike..
00:16:43Bagderjrsharp: right
00:17:08jrsharpok... so a 1st gen iPod would count, right? they didn't have the click wheel, right?
00:17:21DerPapstyes.
00:17:43jrsharpok, cool
00:17:51domonok1but 1gen ipod isnt really stabel with rockbox till now, am i right ?
00:17:52jrsharpof course, I'm not stuck on an iPod...
00:17:54amiconnLlorean, scorche: It might be useful to separate the M3 themes, as the M3 allows to choose e.g. the font freely, while the M5/X5 remotes are coupled to the main font
00:18:25jrsharpdomonok1: oh? I figured 1st gen ought to be well supported...
00:18:46domonok1http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/TargetStatus :-)
00:18:48scorcheamiconn: yes...i already have a separate section for the M3 and am not planning on tying in the RWPSs to the M3 section
00:18:50 Quit CyBergRind|w (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:18:50DerPapsttough i wouldn't recommend an iPod at all, though i can use mine blindy very well since it has a case and the clickwheel is now 1mm below the average case heigh
00:18:53BigBambijrsharp: You want a non-portalplayer in my opinion
00:19:00amiconn1st/2nd Gen should be stable now, but the lack of suspend isn't nice
00:19:13Lloreanamiconn: The interesting thing is, though, that any font chosen for the "main" font, would still have to work with the .rwps file on M5/X5 anyway, so they'd be valid. The only problem is I imagine it'd load the .wps instead of the .rwps for the remote screen on the M3, so that's the real problem (in my view)
00:19:32jrsharpdomonok1: ahh... I see that now
00:19:33LloreanIf it loaded .rwps, it wouldn't look as good as it could, but it'd still be designed for that screen / font combo
00:20:06nubanyone: do you guys know who to put a video onto a 1st gen ipod nano. i am confused by the directions given
00:20:14BigBambiiriver H100, H300, iaudio X5, M5, (M3?), or for most stability but MP3 only one of the Archos'
00:20:16scorchetheme makers can just submit their own for the M3 and if a person wants (and knows about it), they can take the RWPS out of the M5/X5 sections...i could put a notice at teh top of the M5 portion as well
00:20:19BigBambinub: Cpy and paste?
00:20:23BigBambi*copy
00:20:24domonok1jrsharp: you may also want to look at: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/TargetStatus?topic=BuyersGuide
00:20:29mud-rb_nub: which part specifically?
00:20:49jrsharpDerPapst: why a non-portalplayer?
00:20:57amiconnI think a 1st..3rd Gen ipod would be better for a blind user than the newer ipods, because these older ones don't have the buttons integrated into the wheel (i.e. no clickwheel, but a separate touchwheel (2nd and 3rd Gen) or a mechanical scrollwheel (1st Gen) respectively
00:21:00jrsharpdomonok1: thanks, I'm checking that out
00:21:20BigBambijrsharp: I assume that was at me, not DerPapst
00:21:49jrsharpBigBambi: yeah, sorry... my eyes got crossed.. >)
00:22:09amiconnAh yes, there's that detection problem on early 1st Gens...
00:22:11jrsharpamiconn: yeah, tha's a good point
00:22:25Lloreanscorche: Notice is probably best. "While X5/M5 themes don't directly work with the M3, the RWPS can be taken and used as an M3 WPS with small modifications to the .cfg" or some such
00:22:26BigBambijrsharp: And because of battery life, stability and completeness of features. There isn't much in it now, but still
00:22:38*amiconn should post his test bootloader...
00:22:42DerPapsti wouldn't recommend a 3G at all
00:22:53DerPapstbecause the hold switch is the only real "button"
00:23:19amiconnDerPapst: The buttons below the lcd are touch stuff on 3rd Gen?
00:23:26DerPapstyes
00:23:33jrsharpso do the voice features of rockbox work equally well on all ports, then
00:23:34jrsharp?
00:24:03amiconnOh, so that's also bad. 1st/2nd Gen should have better battery runtime than 3rd Gen (purely because of the higher battery capacity)
00:24:05domonok1yes, only the old archos are a bit more limited..
00:24:21amiconnMore limited, but stable.....
00:25:14jrsharpok
00:25:26DerPapsti thought the 3G has a better battery
00:25:29amiconnThe 1st/2nd Gen buttons are mechanical, and they protrude from the case
00:25:57amiconnDerPapst: 3rd Gen battery capacity is around half that of the 1st/2nd Gen - with the same CPU...
00:26:12amiconnThe drawback of the 1st/2nd Gen is that they're firewire only
00:26:15DerPapstoh...
00:26:16*domonok1 still need someone to tell him why this talkfile: http://www.retrospektiwe.de/The%20Last%20Supper.mp3.talk is cut of in rockbox, but decodes fine with rbspeexdec ..
00:26:46amiconn1230mAh (1st/2nd) vs. 630mA (3rd)
00:26:49*jhMikeS still wonders why any would be at all
00:27:05nubok dude im confused say i have a .mp4 vid
00:27:12nubi cant just put that into the ipod right
00:27:45domonok1nub, yes you have to convert, take a look at the wikipage of mpegplayer
00:27:47mud-rb_nub: no, you can't. you need to transcode it to a different codec.
00:27:58nubto mpeg correct
00:28:02nubmpeg-2
00:28:04nubright
00:28:13domonok1to mpeg and the right screensize..
00:28:14mud-rb_correct
00:28:18BigBambior 1
00:29:49domonok1is there some header which could be wrong in talkfiles ? or are they completly raw ?
00:30:12jrsharpthanks everybody... you've been very helpful
00:31:59jhMikeSdomonok1: raw speex
00:32:26nubafter converted
00:32:31nubcopy and paste?
00:32:50domonok1jhMikeS: any idea how i could debug this problem ? ( the talkfile was generated by rbutil, and i want find the bug) :-)
00:33:49jhMikeSmake sure talk.c is sending everything. the voice thread should also be decoding everything until libspeex indicates the clip has ended.
00:34:51jhMikeSI take it this depends on if music is running or not?
00:35:10domonok1i only tried it without music..
00:35:15Narc4746751What's the easiest way to remove lint and fibers from the inside of a player's case?
00:35:23Narc4746751i have access to a cleanroom if necessary
00:35:36domonok1its also cut off in the sim... but a decoded wav file with rbspeexdec is fine with it..
00:36:08jhMikeSI'd try with music. that may point to the pcm buffer not playing every frame
00:36:39Narc4746751Maybe I'll try a can of duster.
00:36:51domonok1on target its fine with musik..
00:37:37domonok1so it probably just stops playback to early ?
00:37:39 Quit phinze ()
00:38:45jhMikeSthat indicates talk.c and voice_thread.c are doing it right but makes me suspect the pcmbuf.c fails to play all the inserted data
00:41:08 Quit nub ()
00:41:10*domonok1 is a bit lost in this code .. :-/
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00:43:25 Quit m0f0x ()
00:43:42BumAzuntagged tracksss? how can i change that
00:43:49scorchetag them
00:44:01BumAzhow
00:44:31scorcheby using a tag editor like mp3tag, the godfather, etc (assuming you are using windows and mp3s)
00:44:59 Join mokkurkalve [0] (n=eivind@062016139251.customer.alfanett.no)
00:45:35gevaertsNarc4746751: just reading the backlog. Did you run lsusb and e200tool as root ?
00:45:42BumAzscorche: why does it do that
00:46:03scorche"it" doesnt...you didnt tag them or wherever you got them from didnt
00:46:40BumAzscorche: pretty gayy if u ask me
00:46:45scorche...
00:46:54Narc4746751gevaerts, yes
00:47:04scorchethis is *your* fault here for not tagging your files...
00:47:07gevaertsok. that's not the problem then...
00:47:09Narc4746751gevaerts, i opened the cabinet and found a missing IC.
00:47:22BumAzscorche, well its itunes fault
00:47:29scorchethen whine to them
00:47:56 Quit jrsharp ()
00:48:06Narc4746751gevaerts, the TI LC24 to be exact
00:49:53*amiconn now has a bunch of rather interesting curves
00:50:17*Narc4746751 puts on sunglasses and gazes at amiconn sideways
00:50:41 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
00:50:55BumAzi will
00:51:51BumAzok scorche, can u use other programs to dl music too then?
00:51:59scorchethat is offtopic here
00:52:19BumAzo ok
00:53:44 Join phinze [0] (n=phinze@pcp027324pcs.jesres.mu.edu)
00:56:45gevaertsCould some gsoc mentors have a look at the latest comment in Corey Shaffer's usability application ? I think someone with more rockbox-knowledge than me should reply to that
00:58:37 Quit Rincewind ("bye")
00:59:34scorcheI commented...there are quite a few other things about his application I think needs to be discussed besides that, so it would just be better in IRC
01:00
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01:00:20gevaertsgreat
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01:03:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:06:25linuxstbscorche: Just a thought - if we have discussions with students in IRC, one of us should try and remember to post a link to the logs as a comment attached to the application, so mentors that miss the chat in IRC know it existed.
01:06:43linuxstb(or even the student could...)
01:06:52 Join GPT [0] (n=GPT@unaffiliated/gpt)
01:07:34scorchelinuxstb: that is a good idea, however there are some folks who are in here routinely and we would end up with a hundred or so links...
01:08:03linuxstbTrue...
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01:09:00scorchethere are also discussions about certain ideas that may not have been about the student's proposal specifically
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03:10:52kugelwhat's the best way to prepare the source code to be distributed without all the .svn folders?
03:11:26 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
03:11:39DerPapstkugel: look how it is done here: http://pastebin.ca/962361
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03:13:36 Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
03:13:45psycho_maniaccongrats on getting into the 2008 GSOC
03:13:46kugelI don't quite get the script. what will it exactly do?
03:15:11kugelDerPapst: ^
03:16:11kugelDerPapst: I don't see where the .svn folders are taken out
03:16:14DerPapstit will copy the entire svn tree to a folder and 7zip it up.
03:16:48kugelwith the .svn folders?
03:16:55kugelI do not want them
03:16:55DerPapstkugel: it doesn't. svn ls -R doesn't include them
03:18:26DerPapstthe line including the svn ls -R part copies the entire source tree to another directory skipping the .svn folders.
03:19:35kugelah ok
03:20:06kugeland if I don't want 7z but normal zip?
03:23:02linuxstbA simple way would just be (in your Rockbox dir) "svn ls -R | xargs zip mysource.zip"
03:23:16DerPapstreplace the 7zr command with the zip one.
03:23:38DerPapstmeh.. too easy
03:24:22kugelDerPapst: Yea, that idea came just into my mind after I asked :/ Too late allready for me
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03:24:46kugellinuxstb, DerPapst: Thanks. I didn't know about "svn ls -R"
03:25:45kugelIt seems to delete.rej and .org files as well.
03:25:59DerPapsts/delete/skip :-P
03:26:33DerPapstit skips all files not added to svn. So in order to add new source files you need to svn add them first.
03:27:31kugelah ok
03:27:36kugelyea, I've done that
03:29:29Nico_Pkugel: there's also svn export
03:31:04kugelDerPapst: The files I added aren't in the zip
03:32:50linuxstbNico_P: Does that work with local changes though?
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03:33:37DerPapstkugel: and you did "svn add ./path/to/file.c" ?
03:33:44kugelDerPapst: sure
03:34:04Nico_Plinuxstb: apparently if you don't specify the rev local changes are kept
03:34:13DerPapsthrmm.... don't know then
03:34:19Nico_PI've never tried though
03:34:24*DerPapst isn't a svn wizard
03:35:23*DerPapst tries
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03:38:16DerPapstindeed, it's missing
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03:38:50DerPapstno idea why though
03:40:43DerPapstsvn export does the trick.
03:43:52kugelyea
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05:37:00Dr_PressureI have a question about power supplies for an Archos. Would it be better suited in #rockbox-community or in here?
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07:11:53ranjithhi everyone
07:12:40DerPapstlo ranjith
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08:17:31*amiconn would think 'lightweight' would be for slow processors, not fast ones...
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08:22:23DerPapstmorning amiconn :-)
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08:23:07amiconnmo0ning
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08:59:45jhMikeSnot at all. the point is to have drivers that keep a fast processor doing nothing as much as possible and let peripherals do the work instead instead of cycle buring in loops.
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09:02:05amiconnYou mean just let the hardware do something and sleep meanwhile *without* yielding?
09:03:03jhMikeSyield by just sleeping the calling thread which lasts for the entire duration of whatever is being done
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09:04:09amiconnWhy not a plain yield() in this case?
09:04:34jhMikeSthen the processor can't enter a sleep state
09:04:55amiconnhmm
09:06:00amiconnSo this is actually almost the same as sleep(0) if I'm not missing something
09:06:10jhMikeSno
09:06:50jhMikeSit's not tick based at all, it's immediate wakeup of the thread when the interrupt signals it
09:07:21amiconnYes, that's why I said 'almost'─
09:07:24amiconn-─
09:07:44jhMikeSall explicit wakeups are immediate so they can happen faster and with far less latency than the tick
09:07:52amiconnsleep(0) sleeps until the end of the tick. This one just sleeps until the next interrupt
09:09:51amiconnWell, my first thought might actually be useful on all targets: a micro-sleep *without* yielding, instead of those really short delay loops. Requires the respective driver code to use interrupts though
09:09:53jhMikeSthe thread isn't nescessary put pack into the run list on the next interrupt, many interrupts could happen before the handler wakes it.
09:11:03amiconnBut that idea doesn't need support in the scheduler, and is better inlinied into the driver code
09:11:26jhMikeSmicro sleep? like udelay? :)
09:11:55amiconnYes and no. udelay() uses busy-looping
09:14:04amiconnHmm, the PP502x has that suspend-for-n microseconds feature, which could (should?) be used for udealy...
09:14:09amiconn*udelay
09:14:47jhMikeSI don't think it's sensitive to interrupts though even if bit 31 is set
09:15:33amiconnWhat was the limit, again? There are some udelay calls waiting a quite high number of microseconds
09:15:52jhMikeS256 of any unit
09:16:11jhMikeS255
09:16:37amiconnHmm, so the wait has to be split anyway
09:17:51jhMikeSwhere are the big udelays used for anything other than init code (and the e200 radio driver)?
09:18:20amiconnI only know some inits (e.g. lcd)
09:18:31amiconnThose should better use sleep()
09:18:51amiconnBut then we need a working sleep() for bootloaders
09:19:01jhMikeSyep
09:20:27amiconnThe udelay() could use the core suspend feature with just a tiny bit more code:
09:21:17jhMikeSIt has to be short enough to allow FIQ servicing though
09:21:18amiconnInstead of the empty while(){} body, make it suspend for MAX(stop-USEC_TIMER, 255)
09:21:42amiconnErm, MIN() of course
09:23:00amiconnHow deep is the sample fifo?
09:24:03jhMikeS16
09:24:24jhMikeSit's allow to drop to 4 before being refilled
09:26:52amiconnSo 12 samples. Does the PP hardware support 88200Hz sample rate?
09:28:01jhMikeSIt's supports a huge sample clock range and the wm codecs can support 96KHz I think
09:28:52amiconnOK. Hmm, actually the latency is 4 samples max, because the udelay() could be entered when the buffer is already quite low
09:29:22amiconnStill, 40 us should be safe (at 96kHz) then
09:29:30jhMikeSIIS master mode has a large range. A master codec determines the IIS clock otherwise
09:31:33amiconnAt 80MHz, 80 us equals 3200 clock cycles during which the cpu could sleep before rechecking USEC_TIMER... depending on how often this is used in drivers, it save quite a bit of battery power
09:31:51amiconnInsert "could" where appropriate
09:32:06amiconnAnd iI meant 40 us, bah
09:35:43jhMikeSFIQ is allowed from IRQ mode so it should be ok even from inside an IRQ handler (I hope that's actually working)
09:39:09jhMikeSthe scheduler has lower latencies across sleeps and context switches than 3200 clocks
09:40:04JdGordonjhMikeS: why is therre IF_COP() being used instead of the full #ifdef ? isnt that frowned on?
09:40:41jhMikeS#ifdef everywhere makes the code bloody unreadable
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09:41:41jhMikeSit's confined to one-liners only but if the code police must enforce it I'll change it
09:43:22jhMikeS3200 clocks is about 3 to 4 messages received and responded to at 80MHz
09:46:01amiconnThe scheduler might have lower latency, but the code in the schedules threads might not
09:46:14amiconn*scheduled
09:47:39amiconnThe 3200 cycles are for 40 us, and some driver code relies on udelay() being precise enough
09:48:09amiconnThere's at least one I know of - the brightness setting code for iPod Video+Nano
09:49:36jhMikeSthat's the point - the scheduler is pure friction code and performs no useful work. those number didn't include disabling ticks or other periodic threads like power.
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09:54:15amiconnBut sleeping 3200 cycles is still better than busy-looping the same time, that was my point
09:54:31*amiconn should probably just try it
09:56:01jhMikeSquite true
09:56:28amiconnIs udelay() called from COP?
09:57:30jhMikeSI'm not aware of any instances right now.
09:58:59amiconnHmm, still something it should be secured against, I think
09:59:15amiconnMaybe it makes sense to un-inline it then
09:59:45amiconnSomething that is meant for waiting doesn't need to be super-fast after all :)
09:59:50jhMikeSCURRENT_CORE is only a 3-instruction inline
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10:00:53amiconnYeah, but checking that every loop iteration doesn't make sense
10:01:24jhMikeSthe curent core is always the current one
10:02:06amiconnOf course. Thing is, you need to use a different register for suspending depending on which core enters udelay
10:02:29amiconnSo udelay would need to be expanded into 2 different while() loops
10:02:30jhMikeSuse PROC_CTL(core) = nnn
10:03:13jhMikeSthat just makes a str r0, [r1, r2, lsl #2] kind of thing
10:03:14amiconnThen you do check every interation...
10:03:22amiconnhmm
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10:10:07*amiconn thinks we should document all the RE'd PP details in our wiki
10:11:34jhMikeSanother thing is I think the USEC_TIMER wraps way before 2^32-1, trying to use it for more extended measurement seemed to indicate that but I never actually ran a test
10:12:31amiconnHmm, I don't think it does
10:12:44amiconnIf it would, it would cause occasional freezes
10:13:32jhMikeSI tried measuring longer intervals in the e200 scrollwheel driver and it broke after about 20 minutes of inactivity
10:16:03amiconnPutting the USEC timer into the ports debug screen and then watch it for a while should tell. Weel, that 'while' would be quite long
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10:16:52amiconn4295 seconds, i.e. 1:11:35
10:17:42jhMikeSjust have it splash or write the ticks to a file when it sees a value less than the previous?
10:18:31amiconnBut if it wraps earlier, it could cause freezes, because then stop = USEC_TIMER + usecs could calculate a value that is never reached
10:21:43jhMikeSthe udelay implementation in retailos is more elaborate than the one in rockbox. I think MrH just copied it to e200tool.
10:23:17jhMikeSoddly enough I see no use of clockskipping except in the frequency scaling :)
10:24:19*amiconn now has the udelay timer in his 2nd Gen ports debug screen
10:24:40amiconnWill watch it for a while. Just compiling the same for mini 2nd Gen
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10:33:07pickyLlorean: ping
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10:39:31pickyAre there microSD cards with at least 16GB capacity that are usable with Sansa e200 (under RockBox of course)
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10:42:39scorchethey dont go up that high yet
10:42:45LloreanYes
10:42:47Lloreanpicky: And yes?
10:43:02Lloreanscorche: And, they don't go that high *yet* :-P
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10:43:41scorchethat is why i put "yet" on there...
10:44:13scorchepicky: to make it clear, they should be once they come out, but they havent yet...
10:44:15LloreanApparently I can't read.
10:44:20LloreanIt is late/early.
10:44:39scorcheLlorean: heh...didnt even see the "yet"?
10:44:52Lloreannope
10:45:23*scorche cleans the smudge off Llorean's screen
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10:46:39pickyscorche: ah, so there just isn't any? 8 GB is the biggest capacity available?
10:46:48scorchecurrently, yes
10:47:57pickyLlorean: have you seen my question and a proposal about inserting songs into playlist when the playback is stopped? (Please don't shoot me for the proposal :-) It was yesterday.... I'll look up the exact time... just a moment...
10:48:17Lloreanpicky: I saw it.
10:48:35LloreanThe problem isn't "what should it do".
10:48:44pickyscorche: ok, thanks! But I assume 8 GB works without problems. Are there preferred manufacturers?
10:48:58LloreanThe problem, for me, was "until it does what most of us agree it should, what measures can we take easily to make it a bit clearer what's happening"
10:49:37scorchepicky: look around review sites for speed comparisons and decide by that if you must...i usually just get the cheapest one
10:49:47pickyLlorean: Aha! But is there a general agreement on what it should do? If yes, what is it?
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10:50:48pickyscorche: so the only difference is the speed? I only need it for my music, no video o the like. So the speed shouldn't e an issue. It should just work.
10:51:04Lloreanpicky: Stopping should not change anything about how users interact with the playlist, and it shouldn't be cleared without the user explicitly knowing they're clearing it.
10:51:08scorchewhat other difference are you expecting?
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10:52:25pickyLlorean: but do I remember correctly that there was once a talk about it (in the forums?) and you was strongly in favor of the current behaviour? I.e. inserting when stopped = clear playlist and start playback?
10:52:35pickyHave you changed your mind since then?
10:53:25LloreanI was strongly against the halfway point that we have now.
10:53:42LloreanRight now, we have inconsistent behaviour. You can view the playlist, but not insert into it.
10:54:02pickyLlorean: I mean this thread: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=13003.0
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10:55:02pickyA quote: "Then what would be the point of even HAVING a stop function, if the playlist will always act exactly as if it were paused?"
10:55:29Lloreanpicky: I still stand by that quote.
10:55:53LloreanI don't see what it has to do with anything. If all differences between Stop and Pause are removed, then Stop should be removed.
10:56:03LloreanWhat exactly is your point, if I may ask?
10:58:20pickyLlorean: I try to understand how a "general opinion" is formed in RockBox. Once it was "Insert = clear playlist + start playback", now it's different.
10:58:56Bagder"general opinion" is very vague in general ;-)
10:59:09BagderI mean, the general part
10:59:30LloreanIt can be a "general" opinion if it's among the majority of people who've spoken up so far.
10:59:34LloreanIt doesn't actually mean it's what's going to happen.
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11:02:37pickyBagder: yes, the general part is too general :-)
11:02:53Bagderyeps
11:03:28Gartralwhy is there a shortcut creator in rockbox, if it dosnt do anything?
11:03:28*amiconn is strongly in favour of keeping the current behaviour
11:03:39Lloreanpicky: Whichever method is picked, it's unlikely that there will be an option for either. There's been a tradition of trying to find a single solution to such problems.
11:03:43pickyLlorean: yes, I understand that it must become a general opinion among developers, not just the people who have spoken up so far
11:03:57pickyBut sometimes developers get infected with the masses' opinion :-)
11:04:16Bagderand we're a collection grumpy old devs!
11:04:34Bagderwe like it how it was in the old days
11:04:39Lloreanpicky: Actually, it doesn't have to be a majority decision among developers, always. It's far more complicated than a single vote, and quite sometimes developers will even prefer one way but still side with changing a behaviour for other reasons despite it not being their preference.
11:04:57Llorean-quite
11:04:59*Gartral is strongly in favor of changing the current behavoir
11:05:15pickyLlorean: the easiest solution: make it an option (just kidding)
11:05:29Lloreanpicky: Already said, that almost certainly won't happen.
11:05:46*Llorean is strongly in favour of removing the inconsistencies and ceasing to straddle the line, irrelevant of which direction that moves things.
11:06:14Gartralwhat does the shortcut optin in toe context menu for folders do?
11:06:51LloreanGartral: Is that feature not yet covered by the manual?
11:06:54*amiconn can't see any inconsistency in the current behaviour, but likes the convenience of that behaviour
11:07:09Lloreanamiconn: The inconsistency is the fact that you can view the current playlist, but not insert into it.
11:07:23amiconnSure you can insert... just start playback before
11:07:44pickyO-je, there was good time when adding a setting wasn't such a big crime. But then it got tougher... :-)
11:07:57Lloreanamiconn: how is that *not* confusing to a user, though?
11:08:09Gartralno.. its not
11:08:12LloreanThey see the playlist, and the option is named "Insert", the obvious assumption is that it will insert into the playlist.
11:08:18pixelmaLlorean: I doubt that the shortcut feature is mentioned in the manual
11:08:29Lloreanpixelma: I thought that he'd made a writeup about it.
11:08:30amiconnLlorean: As I said, then rename the option while playback is stopped
11:08:31LloreanI guess not
11:08:43Lloreanamiconn: And that is one of the things I'll accept as "removing the inconsistencies"
11:08:54amiconnBut that's a minor-minor-minor thing imo
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11:09:17Gartraland whats with delay from hitting enter, and seeing my post your web client?
11:09:28LloreanBut it's still confusing to the user. We still get people asking how to "Clear" playlists, and an option called "Clear and Insert" when playback is stopped would certainly help
11:09:28amiconnEspecially when compared to the real problems...
11:09:28pickyGartral: it's a shortcut plugin. It's covered in the wiki. I'm not sure that the wiki describes the latest state though.
11:09:44LloreanGartral: use a real client then...
11:10:49Gartralwould i i didnt have 30 megs of ram
11:11:43Gartrali realize it a plugin, but what does it do?!?
11:14:25pickyGartral: look here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/PluginShortcuts
11:15:03Gartralohh... that may be why i couldnt find it, i was looking in the wrong wiki
11:17:27Gartralok... i was running under the impression of it set the folder/file up for quick access in the main menu
11:18:18LloreanWhat other wiki were you looking at? And what gave you that impression, or was it just a random guess?
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11:20:40Gartralumm, other wiki was sansa e200 wiki, and the impression was it was like a shortcut in any os, it adds the file/folder to the main menu/desktop
11:21:09LloreanWhat "e200 wiki" are you talking about?
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11:21:50Gartralthe sansa e200 FAQ wiki
11:21:55Gartraldun ask me too look for it, itll take a half hour
11:22:05LloreanDo you just mean the e200 FAQ page in our wiki?
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11:22:41Gartralyes
11:23:17LloreanJust to avoid confusion in the future then, different pages on the same wiki aren't different wikis, they're just different pages.
11:24:19Gartralblah, im trying to type on a kb the size of my thumb
11:24:58LloreanYou'll have to type even more if people don't know what you're talking about. ;)
11:25:21Gartralimon a freaking phone!
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11:31:04Gartralis the shortcut file supposed to be named shortcut.link.lnk?
11:32:16Buschelgood morning!
11:32:45Buschelcan anyone close fs#8755 or grant the needed rights to me?
11:32:56Buscheli could only request the closure...
11:33:19BagderBuschel: what's your FS user name?
11:33:28HorschtAndre Buschmann
11:33:33Horschtiirc
11:33:40BuschelBuschel
11:34:02BagderBuschel: the tracker superpowers are now yours!
11:34:27*Buschel likes to have superpowers :)
11:34:31Buschellet's see
11:34:48amiconnjhMikeS: USEC_TIMER is a true 32 bit counter, both on PP5002 and PP502x
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11:35:29*pixelma wonders about the holes in the build table
11:35:35Gartralwould it be hard too implement actual shortcut functionallity too rockbox?
11:36:18BuschelBagder: thanks, worked fine
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11:41:21Buschelanything speaking against committing the patch in FS #8651 (fixes possible crash and dropouts during crossfading)
11:42:42LloreanGartral: Believe it or not, in most OSes, shortcuts work a lot more like the Rockbox ones (simply files that, when invoked, redirect so that a different file is invoked)
11:42:55LloreanGartral: What you're actually asking for is the ability to alter the main menu, a different concept entirely.
11:43:32Gartralwell, n anycase, is it possible?
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11:44:11safetydanHas the build system gone wonky?
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11:45:00LloreanGartral: Possible yes, likely to happen probably not.
11:46:13Gartralwhy? if rockbox had that kind of funtionallity, it would greatly expand usability, and user base
11:46:16jhMikeSamiconn: I wonder what the deal was then
11:48:26safetydanBagder, I think the build system needs poking.
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11:49:18bertriksafetydan: I'll try the fix for 8826 right away
11:49:40LloreanGartral: Rockbox is designed as a music playback software. Adding function shortcuts to the main menu doesn't really improve that functionality much at all, if any really.
11:49:54LloreanIt also creates undesired support and complexity overhead.
11:49:55safetydanbertrik, oh hi, didn't see you there. I don't know if what I committed is actually a fix however. But please do test.
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11:54:16Gartralbut it would, say a user wanter quicker access to a subdirectory, instead of having to rebuild rockbox too there own specs, they could just add it too the shortcuts file, where it would be parsed and added to the mainmenu
11:55:42LloreanGartral: They could also just put a shortcut to it in the root of the filesystem. It takes just a couple extra button presses, but doesn't require any added code complexity.
11:57:52safetydanIf you want to be organised about it, you could create a shortcuts folder. That way it would be three clicks to any shortcut. Files -> Shortcuts -> Shortcut...
11:58:46Lloreansafetydan: I don't know how the paths are coded in the .rock, but you could probably also juts move *it* to the root
11:59:28Gartralbut the whole point of rockbox is too make the user experience as streamlined and smooth as possible, and i know a large number of people who would really like access too there favorite places in ther drives without haveing to go through menu after menu too get to it, by saying "its only a few more clicks" your not only self contradicting, you sound like every corporation in america, asking its users too ive wi
12:00
12:00:03JdGordonI wouldnt want the shortcuts in the main menu, but I wouldnt be against having a shorcut to the shorcuts plugin in the menu
12:00:05pixelmaand if you set the file browser as start screen
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12:00:14LloreanGartral: We don't demand users live with our choices. The source code is made freely available to them.
12:00:39bertriksafetydan: your fix in 16888 seems to work fine, however I just ran into a data abort :(
12:00:44LloreanGartral: And "the whole point of Rockbox" is to be the best _music player_ it can be.
12:01:04*JdGordon thought it was to play doom on every DAP ever made?
12:01:11Gartralbut honestly, i live in lakewood ohio, AKA Flakewood, named for the gay pop. and the amoun people who want things to work without having to understand them
12:01:15bertrikthe data abort may be the one that Buschel is chasing right now
12:01:23safetydanbertrik, interesting. What were you doing at the time?
12:01:50LloreanJdGordon: I think a more general solution would be to have a "user folder" of some sort from the main menu, which can contain .link files, .cfgs, .m3us... It's almost like having a customizable menu one level off the main, but not quite.
12:01:59Buschelbertrik: can you give details about the data abort?
12:02:02bertriknot exactly sure anymore, sorry. I was skipping forward and enabling/disabling eq
12:02:12JdGordonLlorean: I'd be happy with that also
12:02:23Gartralthats a fair trade off
12:03:12bertrikBuschel: it says "Data abort at 0000850C (0)"
12:03:34*JdGordon joins in the wondergin whast up with the builds...
12:04:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:04:35bertrikBuschel: according to the .map file and arm-elf-addr2line, that's in buffering.c, function add_handle
12:04:45LloreanGartral: But please, never try to use the "you should do what the users want" argument. The users aren't doing the work, the developers are. It's their free time that goes into this project, so they're going to decide the direction.
12:05:06Buschelbetrik: hmm, that's not the data abort i worked on
12:05:08LloreanSometimes it'll be the same as what the users want, sometimes it won't. But the users get it for free, nobody had to give it away. And the users have the source, if they really want change badly enough.
12:05:20Gartrali wasnt asking you follow what i say, i was stating my argument
12:05:34safetydanbertrik, Buschel, it's possible that switching in and out of low latency mode a lot might be problematic
12:05:57LloreanGartral: One of your "arguments" was that it would expand user base...
12:06:58Gartralwich it would
12:08:01LloreanAnd my point was "users want it" isn't a particularly good argument here. You haven't done any polling, in the first place, and in the second "what developers prefer" almost always trumps it. That's all I was trying to say.
12:09:43Gartralok, and thats a fair argument, witch i answer with another: saying what you said; what makes you, in your place, any better than the corporations that designed the dap your trying to open?
12:10:01Gartraldaps*
12:10:17LloreanGartral: We release the source code, so that anyone who is unhappy with our choices can make their own. I've already said that.
12:10:27JdGordonGartral: we never said we are...
12:11:27LloreanJdGordon: I did, and still do. We don't force our opinions on the users. They can choose to use our software, or they can choose to put in the same effort to modify it. It's not like modifying it came free to your or me either, we had to learn the skills in much the same way a user would have to.
12:11:47LloreanBut if they're getting it for free, and they're voluntarily using it, I don't see them as being "forced" in any way.
12:12:04JdGordonwe _Are_ forcing our opinions on users though
12:12:14JdGordonthe fact we give them more options doesnt mean we arnt
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12:12:27JdGordonthe majority arnt compiniling their own builds
12:12:42LloreanJdGordon: How is that forced though? They have absolute freedom to compile their own builds.
12:13:02LloreanWhere, at any point, do we remove their ability to choose?
12:13:34JdGordononly the ones which have the skill can do anything different in their custom builds...
12:14:10LloreanJdGordon: And? What does that have to do with it. You had to learn how to code before you could make your choices. They have to learn how to code before they can make theirs. I still don't see them as being treated at all unfairly or with force.
12:15:03bertrikBuschel, safetydan: I'll try the data abort with 16890
12:15:12JdGordonArg, whatever.. its a moot point anyway... we know we do this for us and not users...
12:15:36JdGordon3rd time lucky with the builds?
12:15:42safetydanbertrik, I just spent about five minutes switching in and out of the equalizer settings and didn't see a data abort. This is on a H120 though
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12:17:00bertriksafetydan: yeah, it's kinda hard to reproduce, I'll keep this setting for the next few days and see if it happens again
12:18:43Gartrali love rockbox, i just wish the devs where a little more public friendly
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12:20:04damunixhi
12:21:08handmademattersJust followed the IRC while drinking my coffee... and think its the right moment to say "I am very thankful to the developers... and dont understand the whole thing discussed here... Rockbox is constantly improving and all deciciosions seemed to me logical steps... one by one... ANY WAY GOOOOOD MORNING ;-)"
12:22:17*JdGordon takes handmadematters's coffee away.... no more caffeenee for you till lunch!
12:22:32handmadematters;-)
12:22:55Gartraltrue, rockbox rocks, i am thankfull for its devs, i just simpl wish they were more open too ideas passed too them from the public
12:23:31bertrikthere's lots of different ideas and only so many developers
12:23:48*Gartral walks by JdGordon and steals handmadematters coffee back too give to him
12:24:02JdGordonI missed the start of this particular one... but a fair bit of it is how the idea is brought forward... we usually are fairly nice with new ideas...
12:24:23JdGordonnot so nice when the person thinks its new but its just been regurgitated from a few weeks ago
12:25:15Gartralmm, im new too using rockbox, so excuse me if im not completely up too speed
12:26:30JdGordonjhMikeS: wanna reply to the dev ml gsoc question thread about your idea for the software mixer thingy for playback? he sounds like someone who might have what it takes...
12:28:24jhMikeSwhere's that?
12:29:03LloreanGartral: Your idea has been discussed on and off for years. It's not an issue of "being less open", it's an issue of "it's been talked about ALOT already", and you're hearing 'we've made up our minds before' as a new rejection, rather than the fact that we did talk about it, for a long time, first.
12:29:14LloreanGartral: No matter how open you are, you have to reject *some* ideas.
12:29:31jhMikeSnever mind - typing and carrying on a conversation with someone makes me not notice "dev ml" :p
12:30:02Gartralthis is true, i didnt relise this is something that was descussed before
12:30:49Gartrali though it was a fresher idea, since something so powerful didnt have a feature i think would be common sens to include
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12:35:47jhMikeSJdGordon: sounds like more like a person up to designing a high quality resampler
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12:52:57DefineByteAny peeps involved with the manual willing to commit FS #8715?
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12:58:29baobab68hi all
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12:58:56DefineBytehi :)
12:59:39baobab68jhMikeS: you about? i've been recommended to come discuss thread priorities with you
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13:00
13:00:07jhMikeSbaobab68: sure
13:00:47baobab68well i am yet to try the latest builds but the SVN activity reported on the main page sounds promising.
13:01:22baobab68i am using an H320 and for some time now, with various daily builds, there has been a conflict between various activities during startup
13:01:56jhMikeSwhat do you mean by "conflict"?
13:02:35baobab68if resume playback is turned on, the buffering thread and dircache and the buffering the database to RAM all thrash the disk and CPU. Thing is, I'm pretty sure they didn't used to, once upon a time...
13:03:12baobab68eg, with resume playback, dircache of 9500 tracks takes 35+ seconds. without resume playback, 4 seconds.
13:04:07baobab68i just turned off resume playback, as i figure it amounts to less disk activity if I just let the dircache and database get themselves done, and then resume playback manually
13:04:22jhMikeSdircache is a background activity and playback gets priority (and more CPU cycles) that than
13:04:32jhMikeS*than that
13:05:27baobab68is that new with your recent commits? (ie, I should try a more recent build?)
13:06:05jhMikeSno, it's been that way since priorities were first introduced
13:07:00baobab68ok. it all sort of feels related to this thread too: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15875.0
13:08:15damunixHi. I would like to have more informations about the summer of code project, is there any "mentor" ?
13:08:40baobab68to me, it feels like things "changed" when the ring buffer and metadata on buffer came in. (which I totally looked forward to so much when they were announced)
13:08:43Bagderdamunix: there are several
13:08:47damunix:)
13:09:02damunixI see a post on dlfp (french website)
13:09:25Bagderdamunix: you submit your idea of project and how to do it and you will get two mentors assigned from rockbox, should we decide your project is fine enough
13:10:02damunixdo you know if lots of student send ideas ?
13:10:06*petur wonders if anybody is going to answer the application question on the ML
13:10:09Bagderbtw, we got another "mobile app" application
13:10:40*Bagder intends to reply
13:10:45BigBambidamunix: Could you send me a link? I don't see the post
13:11:33damunixof ?
13:11:39jhMikeSbaobab68: The playback engine needs a good service call and it's sensitive to timing changes in that changing some scheduling aspect results in different outcomes. That really shouldn't be the case but unfortunately it is right now.
13:11:55Bagderdamunix: currently we have 6 application submitted
13:12:03BigBambidamunix: The article on dlfp
13:12:13Bagderlast year we had 20 when the application period ended
13:12:15damunixhttp://linuxfr.org/2008/03/30/23915.html
13:12:21BigBambimerci
13:12:48damunixpleasure
13:12:57baobab68jhMikeS: thank you for the info. i am hoping that the scheduler changes you have made are going to help, bit by bit. would it be possible for playback to yield totally for the first 10 seconds or something? :-)
13:13:11baobab68I know most ppl wouldn't want that.
13:13:23moosBigBambi: well posted by Nico_P ;)
13:13:28BigBambiyep :)
13:17:52jhMikeSbaobab68: playback is meant to start playing as soon as asked. that would be more of a "resume delay".
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13:23:35moosBagder: nice answer to ML, even if you miss to invite him here to speak with dsp men preglow, jhMikeS...
13:23:41moos;)
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13:29:18*jhMikeS wrote a response but sent it to JdGordon first (since I suck at being an organization's front-end and he asked me to reply :p). Was more of a specific suggestion if that's even appropriate to do.
13:30:25JdGordonI just replied to your email btw..
13:30:26mooshehe :)
13:31:37baobab68jhMikeS: thanks for the feedback, will keep an eye on things as the commits progress.
13:32:12jhMikeSJdGordon: guess I'll post it...why not...sounds dry enough. :)
13:32:26JdGordonwont do any harm
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13:34:38damunixBagder: just a question : do you have the link where I can submit my ideas ?
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14:00
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14:04:06BigBambidamunix: You could post to the developers mailing list, or discuss in here I guess
14:04:14***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:04:35BigBambidamunix: http://www.rockbox.org/mail/
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14:10:53stripwaxI recall that misaligned reads&writes on linux for Arm generate a signal that gets handled by the kernel (I think) to silently round the addresses appropriately, and you get an output in dmesg too. Does rockbox have any such issues or are all pointer indirections required to be correctly aligned?
14:14:06amiconnPointers must be correctly aligned on ARM and SH, as required by those architectures
14:15:33amiconnUnaligned pointers are a bug, and it's not the duty of the kernel to work around such bugs. If it would silently align the address, it would access the wrong data
14:15:35stripwaxIf they're not aligned, will rockbox just throw an exception?
14:15:44amiconnyes
14:15:48stripwaxok
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14:17:09amiconnColdfire does allow unaligned accesses, and they work as normal, the only penalty being some extra cycles (1 or 2, depending on the width of the access and the type of misalignment)
14:18:55mrkikoCan someone explain me what exactly is an "misaligned" access?
14:19:10mrkikoPointing me to an URL if needed; I know concepts of pointers and memory addressing.
14:19:21stripwaxamiconn - in that case presumably we don't have much code in rockbox that requires unaligned accesses since it would fail to run on arm targets
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14:20:18amiconnWell, the database uses this. There is a separate macro (something with STRICT_ALIGN). If that's not defined, the database packs its structs as tight as possible, saving RAM
14:20:49linuxstbstripwax: gcc takes care of it most of the time (by aligning things). The issues are things like accessing a char array as int, in which case the char array must be aligned to 4 bytes.
14:20:59stripwaxmrkiko - e.g. *(unsigned long *)(0x01234567) - where address is not a multiple of the data size
14:21:44amiconnlinuxstb: It's also an issue if a struct uses __attribute__((packed))
14:21:45mrkikoah ok
14:21:48mrkikoclear
14:21:53amiconnSome usb structs do this
14:21:58mrkikoThank you!
14:22:12stripwaxlinuxstb - that's the sort of thing I had in mind. I *think* the linux kernel still lets you do that unaligned, by rounding the addresses (and doing multiple reads/writes and shifting as appropriate) but there's obviously a hit for that. Was hoping rockbox has no such nonsense
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14:27:26stripwax(and it sounds like it does not have any such automatic fixups, so that's cool). There's no penalty being hidden, basically
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14:28:56JdGordonjhMikeS: you got a bite :)
14:30:31stripwax:)
14:31:07mrkikoWhy can't I find voice files where they have been in the daily build section?
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14:35:22GartralQQ: whats the status of the new usb stacks for controlling the internal memory?
14:37:46 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
14:38:08DerPapstGartral: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/PortalPlayerUsb
14:39:36mrkikoCan someone send me the voice files url?
14:40:25pixelmamrkiko: I think it's currently broken...
14:41:55PaulJamif you follow the "old" link below the target, there is still a download link for the english.voice.
14:42:18Gartralthats not much help, i was asking about the redyness of the (if existent) possible fixes?
14:42:19domonokyjup, voice download seems to be broken, but you can generate a voicefile yourself with rbutil or the build enviroment..
14:43:11DerPapstGartral: it's ready but it has some major issues as the page stated.
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14:49:06Gartralright, as for the readyness OF SAID BUGFIXES
14:49:19Gartraloops, sorry about caps
14:49:20DerPapstthere aren'T any.
14:49:57DerPapstif there were, they would heve been included in SVN and removed from the wiki page.
14:50:04Gartralwhats with the big chain of gobbledy gook at the login on this channel?
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14:51:11Horschtyou mean the topic?
14:51:17Horschtwhat about it?
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14:55:10*domonoky sees now 2 useable gsoc applications for rockbox (out of 8 applications) ..
14:55:22DerPapst8 already...
14:55:27Gartral[08:48] *** Gartral csc` stripwax hannesd DerPapst domonoky goffa Chipsaru XavierGr jhMikeS bughunter2 Cazou amiconn miepchen^schlaf gregzx Thundercloud ch4os_ mf0102 nplus moos PaulJam petur FOAD Lear pixelma lee-qid Horscht ender` ompaul davina Zarggg_ Rob2223 hd tedrock InHisName DerDome SirFunk Pio__ mokkurkalve BumAz cbr|w fyre^OS mrkiko linuxstb_ linuxstb axionix preglow nikosapi TaylorKillian Nevtus Raven
14:55:33Gartralnoo... after the topic
14:55:41ender`?
14:55:46*DerPapst missed some
14:55:46bughunter2Gartral: what?
14:55:50DerPapstlol
14:55:59Gartralscroll all the way up, youll see it
14:56:08bughunter2?
14:56:10domonokyGartral: thats your irc client telling you whos is online.. and you awakend now the hole channel.. :-)
14:56:15Horschtsounds like your client is showing you all the connected nicks
14:56:16DerPapstGartral: the web client lists all users online
14:56:18FOADHey, wassup :P
14:56:18pixelmathat's the "members list" compare to the list on the right
14:56:23Gartralthats what im asking, what does it all mean? its at the top of your channel, not mine
14:56:32Gartralahh
14:56:33bughunter2no it's not, it's your IRC client
14:56:39Horschtno, it's on top of your client, not our chan
14:56:59Gartralthat explains why theres not one sensible english word in there
14:57:15bughunter2it's the nicknames of who is online
14:57:16DerPapstdomonoky: what is the 2nd usefull app?
14:57:23bughunter2if you don't undrstand your IRC client, then ask them, not us
14:57:35bughunter2or use something which gives you a more fuzzy and warm feeling
14:57:38Gartralim useing your webclient, so yes, its at the top of your channel, in your client, not mine
14:57:56bughunter2alright i stop feeding this troll
14:57:57domonokyreal audio support... but the student needs to put more info in the app, but this is better than rfid freigh trackning with rockbox :-)
14:58:19Gartralim sorry, im not in a good mood
14:58:20DerPapst;-)
14:58:48*Gartral gestures too shake bughunter2's hand
14:59:03*bughunter2 gives Gartral a handshake and says "We're friends again."
14:59:05bughunter2lol
14:59:12*Horscht stabs both
14:59:15bughunter2ahhaha
14:59:18*DerPapst runs out of milestones :-/
14:59:35*Gartral bites Horscht
14:59:47*DerPapst goes to buy some new milestones
14:59:52Horschtgreat now I am a werewolf
15:00
15:00:05Gartralno, your a kitsune
15:00:22domonokyHorscht, Gartral please stay on topic :-)
15:00:32GartralNO! lol
15:01:28Gartraltw, why was i disconnected earlyer?
15:01:44Gartralbtw*
15:02:01DerPapstbad connection? maybe your isp hates you.
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15:02:07DerPapstlike mine does.
15:02:17Gartralwhos your isp?
15:02:21ender`web-based clients are problematic...
15:02:39Gartralthis is one of the better ones for shure though
15:04:20*DerPapst thinks he might be done with his app proposal. Let's review and spellcheck :-)
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15:07:37Gartralhow hard would it be too implement a built in (or build a host computer based/addin to rbutil) audio transcoder?
15:08:30domonokyGartral: why would you need this ? rockbox plays nearly all audio codecs ..
15:09:23Gartralfor the porpus of killing the mp3 corporate built codec
15:09:26Gartraland besides. i like my ogg vornis
15:09:36Gartralvorbis*
15:09:40LloreanTranscoding kills quality anyway.
15:09:50BigBambiThere are many PC side encoders/transcoders already, and as for Rockbox side, a) Rockbox already plays a huge number - and would need to be able to play any it could transcode, and b) it would be very slow compared to on a PC
15:09:56PaulJamtranscoding from one lossy format to another is bad.
15:10:16ender`not just bad, also pointless
15:10:28BigBambiAnd yes, lossy to lossy reduces quality a lot
15:10:38ender`especially if you're doing it on a portable
15:11:04domonokyBigBambi: he suggested rbutil, so this is PC, but i dont see much use in it, as there are many audio transcoders out there, and it isnt a rb specific task..
15:11:24BigBambidomonoky: He suggested both
15:11:27Gartralyes, but there are those of us (who for whatever reason) never had/lost there original cds, and all there songs were encoded into a drm encryppled codec, and we dont like drm encrypplment
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15:11:52BigBambidomonoky: <Gartral> how hard would it be too implement a built in (or build a host computer based/addin to rbutil) audio transcoder?
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15:12:20BigBambidomonoky: But I agree, both are pointless and not Rockbox specific
15:12:28Gartralhaving one right in rbutil would be nice though
15:12:50amiconnRockbox doesn't support drm. This is both a requirement, and a philosophy.
15:12:56domonokyah, now i see... yes its pointless, just use on of those thousands audio transcoders out there :-)
15:13:12BigBambiyup :)
15:14:10Gartralbut none handle DRMed media to non drm
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15:14:32Gartralim asking for one the deDRMs a file
15:14:45BigBambiGartral: And nor would we, even if (a very big if) there were to be a Rockbox transcoder
15:14:54BigBambiGartral: And that is off topic
15:15:11BigBambiGartral: <amiconn> Rockbox doesn't support drm. This is both a requirement, and a philosophy.
15:15:12PaulJamGartral: rbutil wouldn't be able to handle DRM content either because it's open source
15:15:28gibbon_not so long ago, amiconn made astatement about drm... i think it was about 2 minutes ago :P
15:15:47GartralRIGHT THATS WHY I WANT A TRANSCODER THAT REMOVES DRM RULES FROM A FREAKING FILE
15:16:01BigBambiWhich we will NOT do
15:16:13domonokyGartral: this channel is not the right place to ask such things..
15:16:13BigBambiSo stop being off topic and take it somewhere else
15:16:25Gartralok, do you know of wher i can get one?\
15:16:28BigBambiNO
15:16:40Gartralok, im sorry i asked
15:16:43BigBambiGartral: This channel is for Rockbox only
15:17:07Horschtremoving DRM is not legal in many countries
15:17:51Gartralneither is hacking an xbox, but that never truley stoped anyone
15:17:58Horschtthere are windows tools, afaik, but I don't realy care. I don't like or use DRM
15:18:17BigBambiLook, this isn't on-topic for here, lets drop it
15:18:34Gartralright, neither do i, but i have a lot of files that are drmed, because my parents dont know any better
15:19:07Horschtwell then, use google
15:19:13BigBambiHorscht: Drop it
15:20:14Horschtok
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15:20:34Bagder8 gsoc proposals
15:20:47JdGordon1 good one :'(
15:20:55DerPapsti thought 2
15:20:59BigBambiBagder: What are the latest?
15:21:02LloreanBagder: Don't we have one or two in the wings still? People who haven't filed formally?
15:21:04DerPapstthe theme editor and the rm codec
15:21:11BagderLlorean: yes
15:21:24Bagderand it seems there's an extension coming up
15:21:29LloreanHopefully
15:21:46LloreanThere were a few very good reasons for not extending it, too. Summer jobs and all that.
15:22:09Bagderyes
15:22:33 Join Nico_P [50] (n=nicolas@rockbox/developer/NicoP)
15:22:44domonokyyes, i think there are at least 2 or 3 applications still in work :-)
15:22:53*DerPapst hopes the dsp guy is hurrying up
15:23:01*Llorean was really rooting on as-an-app turning up.
15:23:21*amiconn would deem a good resampler much more important than a theme editor
15:23:41*Gartral agrees
15:23:51BigBambiNico_P: See there was already someone here after your dlfp post? :)
15:24:00Bagderamiconn: I'd like to see both
15:24:28Nico_PBigBambi: really? I'll read the logs
15:24:30*JdGordon has no idea what the resampler does, but all those big words in jhMikeS' reply sounds good ! :p
15:24:41Gartralboth would be nice, but i wouldnt complain if the resampler hit public four months eearlier than the theme editor
15:25:03amiconnThe current resampler is plain crap at low input sample rates
15:25:08BigBambiNico_P: about 13.08 CET
15:25:15*Llorean has no idea how much actual work goes into a good resampler.
15:25:36Gartralabout 9-12 months of man hours
15:25:39*DerPapst finishis his app today to convice google rockbox needs more slots, even if his isn't chosen at the end :-)
15:25:56Nico_Pah, found it :)
15:26:17 Join bluebrother [0] (n=dom@rockbox/staff/bluebrother)
15:27:36pixelmaBagder: do you have an idea why there are no "voice" links on the "daily build and voices" page?
15:27:57 Join bertrik [0] (n=Bertrik_@182-015-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl)
15:28:04Bagderhm, I better check
15:28:22LloreanGartral: In that case it seems far too large of a project for a SoC app. But somehow I don't think you were serious, and suggest you remember this is an on-topic channel.
15:28:50Gartralok, other than there being nogcc compiler for it, why was the ipod shuffles left out of rockbox development?
15:29:01BigBambiThat is a pretty major reason
15:29:18BigBambiWhat is the point of writing code if you can't compile and therefore run it?
15:29:21domonokyGartral: how would you write code without a compiler ?
15:29:36amiconnIn asm....
15:29:43BigBambiheh]
15:29:44Gartralyou can.. build a compiler yourself?
15:29:47DerPapstwrite binrary
15:29:56BigBambiGartral: Feel free
15:29:58Gartralthat too
15:30:12domonokyGartral: go for it, it will be only 6-12 Months :-)
15:30:13DerPapst</bad_joke>
15:30:18Gartralif someone would donate there shuffle, ide be glad too
15:30:25CazouHi
15:30:32BigBambiGartral: Rockbox is ported by interested owners, not by a team
15:30:44BagderGartral: if we'd think you could do it, we'd buy one for you...
15:30:58Cazouwhat environment would you advice to build rockbox on linux ?
15:31:01Gartraland how do you know that i can't?
15:31:08BigBambiCazou: Native
15:31:19BigBambiCazou: You just need to build the cross compilers
15:31:21gibbon_Cazou: sunny sky, perhaps trees ;)
15:31:26 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
15:31:33BigBambiCazou: For which there is a handy script in the source
15:31:38BagderGartral: because you haven't shown us anything that would make at least me believe that
15:32:18 Quit Gartral ("CGI:IRC")
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15:32:50CazouI'm on gentoo, I cross compiled gcc for arm
15:32:50gibbon_Cazou: most uncomplicated build system ever, you find the 2documentation" in the toos/ folder of the svn
15:33:10Cazoubut it's version 4.3.0
15:33:17BigBambiCazou: Rockbox requires (well, recommends certian versions) of the cross compiler for each architecture
15:33:19BagderCazou: you really shouldn't go that path
15:33:48Horschtisn't the fact that the shuffles don't have a display also a major reason why they are left out?
15:33:50domonokyCazou: just run that rockboxdev.sh script in the tools folder, it will build you the correct compilers.
15:33:56BigBambiCazou: The rockboxdev script will get you recommended versions, install recquired patches etc
15:34:10BagderHorscht: well, we have a voice ui so it could still be working on it
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15:34:19JdGordonHorscht: on the contrary... they would prove how good our voice ui is
15:34:22Cazouok, thank you
15:34:51DerPapstAt least the M3 doesn't have a main LCD. Only an LCD remote.
15:35:18Horschtah, the voice ui. admitedly, I was impressed to see that rockbox has something like that, but also turned it off after 1 Minute of trying it
15:35:24GartralHorsch: are you awear that trying to tab the rest of your name fails?
15:35:42DerPapstHorscht
15:35:44DerPapstmeh
15:35:49DerPapsti hate my return button
15:35:51BigBambiGartral: With the CGI client you need to use the first letter only then complete
15:35:52JdGordonit would be a massive PITA to actually get rockbox to compile for no lcd though
15:35:55domonokyGartral: again you client.. :-)
15:36:10Gartralahh
15:36:14Cazoualso, I own an Archos 404, will it ever be supported ?
15:36:16BigBambiGartral: It works fine for every nick with a proper client
15:36:24BagderCazou: if you make the port it could!
15:36:28domonokyCazou: only if you port it.. :-)
15:36:34BigBambiCazou: If interested owners do it, sure
15:36:37Gartralhannesd: it gave me that name, out of H
15:36:52bertrikwhat is the cheapest player that rockbox could run on (e.g. PP502x based) but that has no rockbox port yet?
15:36:56Cazouok, let's gsoc before ;)
15:37:13Cazouthat seems to be a too big project for gsoc
15:37:30Cazoubut I'm interrested in the scummVM project
15:37:41Bagderbertrik: probably one of the PP ones on the mi4 page but you would of course need to hunt down a used one
15:37:49Gartrali know the cheapest i can get a sansa e200 is $30
15:37:53pixelmaGartral: in the webclient it only works with the first letter followed by multiple tab, so it would be H<tab><tab>... until the right nick pops up
15:37:57bluebrotherGartral: the client cycles if you hit tab multiple times ... it only requires you to type only the first character
15:38:02domonokyporting to a new player is a bit big and risky project for gsoc ..
15:38:07BigBambipixelma: I already beat you :P
15:38:40pixelmaBigBambi: wouldn't understand your explanation .p
15:38:46pixelmaerr... :P
15:38:49Gartralahh
15:38:51Bagderdomonoky: indeed, but to one the mi4 based PP targets it is somewhat smaller
15:38:55Cazoudomonoky: that's what I thought
15:39:07*pixelma blames keyboard (especially that damn shift key)
15:39:13BigBambipixelma: meh, perfectly clear :)
15:39:37*bluebrother hands pixelma a shift key
15:40:20Cazoubut isn't porting, not for gsoc, a risk to brick the Archos ?
15:40:24Gartralso when is there going to be a calender for DAPs that have a RTC?
15:40:26 Nick JdGordon is now known as JdGordon|zzz (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
15:40:43Cazouis there any jtag port to reprogram it ?
15:40:59CazouI open it tonight \o/
15:41:11DerPapstCazou: that would be something you'd have to figure out.
15:41:18domonokyGartral: when you code it :-)
15:41:19BigBambiGartral: When someone writes one that works on all appropriate targets
15:41:21bluebrotherCazou: that completely depends on the player. The Ipods f.e. are almost unbrickable
15:41:26bertrikGartral: the sansa e200 (at least the V1) is already ported
15:41:33Bagderand we're now down to 7 applications...
15:41:34bluebrother(unless you program the hardware to burn itself of course ;-)
15:41:47DerPapstBagder: rejected one?
15:42:09Gartrali would if i wasnt reduced too using libray comps to cude on
15:42:18amiconnbertrik: Maybe you could pick up the Elio port (including the Elio) from linuxstb?
15:42:22Bagderit seems he withdrew it himself
15:42:24*domonoky clicked the ineglible button on the rfid one.. :-)
15:42:39Bagderah yes that's the one
15:42:41CazouOk, I'll try to figure it out tonight
15:42:41 Quit Gartral ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
15:42:56domonokyit just sorted under ineglible instead of open..
15:43:08DerPapstand waht do i do with my rfid sickers now?
15:43:14Cazouif it's not too risky, I'll be part of the project with certitude.
15:43:15bluebrotherwhat rfid thing=
15:43:23domonokyDerPapst: track freight :-)
15:43:33madhatter_hi, I'm about to receive an ipod touch and I'm interested in porting rockbox on it. Is some work had begin ? Where I can find it ?
15:43:55BigBambimadhatter_: Check out the thread in the New Ports forum
15:44:03madhatter_ok thanks ;)
15:44:29DerPapstthat would be an rockbox as app approach...
15:45:03 Join gevaerts [0] (n=fg@195-144-092-164.dyn.adsl.xs4all.be)
15:45:15DerPapstmorning gevaerts :-)
15:45:17Cazoubye the way, I saw on linux-fr that you were looking for student, if I apply tonight, wouldn't it be too late ?
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15:45:32CazouIt would be for scummVM port
15:45:34BagderCazou: you have till the 31st of march
15:45:38DerPapstnope not to late
15:45:39gevaertsmorning DerPapst :)
15:45:48domonokyCazou: go for it..
15:46:00HorschtScummVM on my DAP: awesomeness
15:46:06Cazouyes but some organization do not like it when it comes 1 day before the end
15:46:17BigBambiWell the earlier the better
15:46:17DerPapstrockbox always needs more apps ;-)
15:46:20BagderScummVM is C++ afaik
15:46:24Cazouok, I'll work on it so
15:46:31Bagderso it'll present some challenges
15:46:33BigBambiMore time for feedback from the mentors etc
15:46:34Horschtthose organizations probably have to deal with a big ammount of apps
15:46:47domonokyCazou: ofcourse we would like to have the apps early, but we still need more.. so go for it and apply..
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15:46:57Cazouyes, I got that info from KDE
15:47:16Bagder"00:00 UTC April 1, 2008" is the deadline actually
15:47:36HorschtI never get UTC
15:48:06Cazouyeah well, at google's, it changes often
15:49:40DerPapstAll LCD remotes are greyscale aren't they?
15:49:58Bagdersome are single bitmap
15:50:00domonokyDerPapst: yes, till now .. :-)
15:50:09Horschtoh, Zulu time
15:50:09CazouI hope I'll have enough time to discover rockbox sources and see how it can be done.
15:50:15BigBambiAre not the iriver ones monochrome?
15:50:16Horschtwhy didn't you say so :p
15:50:45*DerPapst goes verifying
15:51:37bluebrotherBigBambi: at least the h100 remote is.
15:51:48Bagderit's the same one they use for the h300
15:51:50DerPapstyes. all iriver remotes are monorome
15:51:52BigBambiThat means H30o too
15:52:16DerPapstonly the iaudio have 4 shades
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15:59:40bertrikamiconn: I feel that if someone gives me a player to port, I have to really commit to it and I can't promise that (due to day job + other fun hack projects).
16:00
16:00:33bertrikI'll have a closer look at the new ports forum and the mi4 list on bagder's page
16:02:26gevaertsI received an email reply from the "usablity study" guy who contacted some mentors by mail. He seems not to have CCed the others any more. Should I forward this to -dev, to -committers, or to all mentors individually ? I can of course just reply and ask to put an application on google...
16:04:01 Quit PaulJam (".")
16:04:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:04:54domonokyforward it to rockbox-commiters should be good, all mentors should be commitors..
16:05:17gevaertsOK
16:05:48domonokyand ofcourse the student should just apply... the more applications rockbox gets, the more slots we get :-)
16:06:27*gevaerts now notices that he did cc some mentors. Forwarding anyway, since they are not all there
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16:12:47DerPapstdomonoky: iirc GodEater is a mentor but not a commiter. Not sure if he's in the -committers mailinglist though.
16:13:27*domonoky didnt knew that...
16:13:36DerPapstHA! :-P
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16:13:39Cazouhow much application do you have so far ?
16:13:48DerPapst8
16:14:00 Join kugel [0] (i=kugel@unaffiliated/kugel)
16:14:04domonokybut only two usable ones i think.. :-)
16:14:06DerPapstiirc last year 20 :-)
16:14:08gevaertsDerPapst: in this case that's not too much of a problem, he is in the original CC list, so he knows about it
16:14:17Cazouand how much did you expect .
16:14:18DerPapstok :-)
16:14:18Cazou?
16:14:29DerPapst100?
16:14:33DerPapst;-)
16:14:48BigBambiCazou: Last year was the first year so I don't think anyone knew what to expect
16:14:51*domonoky would like to see at the very least 4 usable one, but the more the better..
16:16:41Cazouand what does it need to be "usable" ?
16:17:32domonokyit should be of use for rockbox, realistic, and with enough details, so we know you understand the project..
16:17:37gevaertsFirst of all, rockbox related. While this may sound obvious, apparently it isn't...
16:19:38CazouI discovered rockbox with gsoc
16:19:44DerPapsthighscore or high score? i always though the former but it seems like spellcheckers tend to disagree.
16:19:58DerPapst*thought
16:20:28domonokyCazou: nice, do you have a rockboxable player ?
16:20:48Cazouunfortunatly no
16:21:03Cazoubut there is a simulator, isn't there ?
16:21:15BigBambiYes
16:21:31BigBambiBut it depends on what you want to work on how useful that is
16:21:46domonokyyes, there is, but it is a simulator and not an emulator, so real traget expirience is mostly needed.. :-)
16:21:54BigBambiKeep in mind it is a simulator not an emulator
16:22:34gevaertsOf course, if someone gets busy in this year's gsoc, maybe there will be one next year...
16:23:01Cazoueverything is cross-compiling, compiling, and installing, I'll see what is doable :)
16:23:06domonokyCazou: but if you get accepted, you could of course buy a rockboxable player with the first money..
16:23:08*DerPapst goes with "highscore"
16:23:27gevaertsCazou: rockboxable players can be quite cheap
16:24:52 Join domonok1 [0] (n=Domonoky@92.227.45.134)
16:25:00gevaertsYou could try getting one of those sansa c240s from that British offer via someone on the other side. It would work out at 20 to 30 euro
16:25:49CazouI already have a player (not rockboxable), I don't want to buy another one...
16:26:09Cazouwhat's the difference between a simulator and an emulator ?
16:28:55gevaertsBasically, a simulator shows the same behaviour to the user, while an emulator allows to run exactly the same software. Maybe an example would make this clearer, but I can't think of one...
16:29:02 Quit bluebrother (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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16:30:52kugelI think the thin difference between between a simulator and an emulator is uninteresting for the most users
16:31:20BigBambiIt is vitally important
16:31:25gevaertskugel: we are talking in the gsoc context
16:31:31BigBambiFor developers, and that is who it is aimed at
16:31:44BigBambiAnd the difference is not small
16:32:11kugelwith "most users" I excluded devs ;)
16:32:26BigBambiSo how is that relevant here?
16:32:56domonok1basically you can only use the sim to test ui things, hardware things and performace problems are only testable on target (or an emulator)
16:33:15gevaertsCazou: while I understand that you are happy with one player, GSoC is partly about getting developers who will stay with the project afterwards. If you don't own a rockbox-capable player that is unlikely. Also note that nobody is suggesting that you would buy it _now_, but I think that spending 1% of the GSoC money on a player is reasonable, if you are chosen
16:38:41Cazougevaerts: I agree but if there is a way of doing this with a simulator or emulator, that could be usefull
16:39:08DerPapstthe initial work yes. the reast unlikely
16:39:16DerPapstsince there is no emulator yet.
16:39:30DerPapstthis is another suggested gsoc app
16:39:32Horschtwhihch would be a GSoC project
16:39:42Horscht*proposed project├ť
16:39:53gevaertsOf course, they allow for quicker testing if it's possible, but it really depends on what area you are working in. For instance, my USB work is not doable _at all_ on anything but real hardware
16:40:18CazouDerPapst: that's exactly what I was thinking about
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16:43:27Nico_PjhMikeS: here?
16:45:48gevaertsCazou: are there any specific areas that you are interested in ?
16:48:38 Join spiorf [0] (n=spiorf@79.20.214.140)
16:49:05Cazouwell, I'm interrested in embedded development but I'm discovering it, I have no experience in it
16:49:34CazouI have experience in higher level development (Qt/KDE f.e.)
16:50:13gevaertswell, yes. That applies to most of rockbox... But we have codecs, user interface, plugins (games,...),... Maybe you have some preference there
16:50:28BigBambiUSB... :)
16:51:09gevaertsI won't suggest that right now. Just slightly too many unknowns...
16:51:22gevaerts(i.e. one, but it's really unknown)
16:51:35CazouI'm more into user interface, you know, see what has been done
16:51:46Cazouand scummVM was interresting
16:52:06gevaertsIf I were a student, I wouldn't like a project that might fail because of one unknown bit in a SoC register...
16:52:18BigBambiindeed
16:53:53Cazouone unknown bit in a SoC register ? what do you mean ?
16:53:54domonok1scummVM is probably not easy, as you have to somehow integrate a c++ plugin into rockbox :-) also screensize and inputs could be problematic..
16:54:28DerPapsts/8/9
16:54:33DerPapst:-)
16:54:51Nico_PCazou: isn't there archopen for the archos 404?
16:55:30*gevaerts finally read the logs completely, so he now knows that he asked some questions that were already answered before...
16:57:09CazouNico_P: you seem right :)
16:57:16CazouI didn't know that project
16:57:32Nico_Pwith their drivers I guess a rockbox port could be a tad easier
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16:59:29*DerPapst hopes that makes it 2.5 usable apps. :-P
16:59:53DerPapstand now it's time to hunt some food :-D
17:00
17:00:58Cazouwith their drivers ?
17:01:09CazouDerPapst: Yes, food :p
17:01:17gevaertsCazou: SoC = System-on-Chip. In this specific case, USB does not work properly yet because we need to do some unknown hardware setup
17:01:49Nico_PCazou: well I assume they've written drivers for the targets they support. These drivers can be reused by a Rockbox port
17:02:47*gevaerts accuses domonok1 of stealing a sentence from another GSoC application comment ;)
17:03:01domonok1:-)
17:03:31*domonok1 thought the comment was GPL :-)
17:03:47DerPapsthehehe
17:04:18kugelDerPapst: have you applied now?
17:04:31HorschtWTFPL
17:04:38*gevaerts grants domonok1 a perpetual and non-exclusive license to use that sentence :)
17:04:45 Quit tedrock (No route to host)
17:04:51domonok1thx :-)
17:05:05DerPapstkugel: yes
17:05:21kugelDerPapst: Cool. Looking forward to a new game!
17:05:52DerPapstlets see if it gets accepted first :-P
17:06:24*DerPapst hopes JdGordon|zzz doesn't beat him for is english ;-)
17:06:33 Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
17:06:39gevaertsis english ?
17:06:42*kugel probably applies next year (if rockbox is accepted), when he's a student
17:07:37pixelmagevaerts: don't question DerPapst's typing - he visited too many typo classes (as he would say) :P
17:07:39domonok1DerPapst: the application sounds nice, but it could be not enough work for gsoc, depending on your coding skills.. :-)
17:08:24gevaertspixelma: I can't resist typos if the sentence is about correct language :)
17:08:43DerPapstit's the keymaps and art work i'm more afraid of :-P
17:09:04gevaertsdomonok1: it's always possible to spend time on improving an AI
17:09:31domonok1sure, and yes artwork could take some time..
17:09:50domonok1so i revert my optinion :-)
17:09:58DerPapstespecially on smaler monochrome LCDs
17:10:08moosDerPapst: I'd say port 2 games for 1 project, maybe that will increase your chance (of course 2 portable games in the meaning time)
17:10:38DerPapstif i'll be too fast i might consider doing mastermind ;-)
17:11:01mooshehe :), added this in your paper?
17:11:08DerPapstbut that is waaaaays to easy for a gsoc app.
17:11:09DerPapstnope
17:12:02gevaertsI would suggest to port http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ instead of doing mastermind. It's in there, and this thing is designed to be simple and portable
17:13:11gevaertsAnd it would give us 27 games instead of just one (OK, there would be some duplicates with what we already have, and some may be hard to map on our buttons, but still)
17:13:52*moos bewails words game :)
17:13:54 Quit ch4os_ ("Lost terminal")
17:14:42moosgevaerts: interresting...
17:15:49DerPapstneat.
17:16:16gevaertsI've been thinking of doing that port as a way of learning about the pluging api
17:16:58 Quit tedr0ck (Connection timed out)
17:17:18*moos slapes gevaerts with an USB cable ;P
17:17:48*gevaerts hides, and wonders why moos would do that
17:18:03 Quit DerPapst ("So Long And Thanks For All The Fish!")
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17:18:28*DerPapst is done with hunting and shot some noodles
17:19:07*gevaerts wonders if DerPapst used the A-3, B-7 method of shooting
17:19:30DerPapstyou bet :-P
17:20:00moosgevaerts: hehe :) It would have been pitty for us USB stack to see you distracted by plugins
17:20:08moos:)
17:20:56gevaertsI haven't started yet :) But now and then I need some time of from USB...
17:21:10DerPapstrockbox all about plugins. usb isn't important
17:21:23gevaertsAnd if you want to prevent me from doing that, you can of course do it first :)
17:21:29*DerPapst adds an "is"
17:21:48gevaertsDerPapst: that's not what you said in your application :)
17:22:15DerPapsti didn't? then i must have pasted the wrong text o.O
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17:22:47pixelmascorche: you around?
17:22:59gevaertsYou said "Rockbox is all about...", but there was something else after that :)
17:23:38DerPapstlies!
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17:25:29TordreHello
17:25:41DerPapstgood morning
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17:26:56Tordreyes, it is.
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17:49:46CShafferHi Everyone - Corey here, I submitted the usability app for GSoC
17:51:47gevaertsHi CShaffer. Welcome to rockbox !
17:54:34DerPapsto/ :-)
17:55:13gevaertsI'm not sure how much you already know about rockbox. Did you look around the website a bit yet ?
17:55:59domonok1CShaffer: first question: do you have rockboxable player ? or do you plan to buy one ? ... :-)
17:56:18CShafferhaha yea i have an ipod
17:56:49CShafferI am not overly familiar with Rockbox - I really wanted to do a usability study and this was one of the ones I found :)
17:57:30CShafferlast year I worked with WordPress and wasn't familiar with it either. Now I provide WP support to b5media and do independent web consulting helping companies utilizing the tool.
17:57:32gevaertsThat's always better than choosing the usability study because it looks easy, which it probably isn't ;)
17:58:56*petur thinks familiarity is not required at all for usability study
17:59:33Nico_Pit's probably even a plus to have a fresh view of things
17:59:33gevaertsWhile reading your application, I was a bit put off by words like 'company', 'customer', and 'client'. While this isn't a serious issue, maybe it would be a good idea to change that to 'project' and 'user' ?
17:59:55CShafferyea sure, no problem
18:00
18:00:07CShafferi was using the word "user" alot haha, so I tried to change it up a bit
18:00:09domonok1the application sounded a bit like rockbox is selling mp3players..
18:00:13gevaertsI agree about the familiarity, but it's still useful to know where we stand
18:00:18CShafferhaha i gotcha
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18:01:13CShaffersorry about that, I didn't mean it in that way!
18:01:45domonok1and for the usability study i think its important to know in which constraints rockbox has to work ( different players, screensizes, input methods)
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18:02:24CShafferyea good point
18:04:08gevaertsWe do have user interface simulators available for all supported players, but of course they don't give you a real feel, especially for button positions and similar.
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18:04:24CShafferyea
18:05:09*gevaerts could never really use them as they seem to depend on the numeric keypad for input, which isn't there on this laptop...
18:05:56bluebrothernevertheless, in regards of the constraints about rockbox it might be good to know the current ui just to get the reasons why it's working the way it currently does
18:06:34*pixelma reminds gevaerts of "Fn" buttons on laptop keyboards (not very nice but works here)
18:06:45DerPapstgevaerts: the reason i changed the buttons for my sims :-P
18:06:51domonok1gevaerts: the sim has alternate keys on the normal keyboard i think :-)
18:07:09*bluebrother always had trouble with the alternate keys in the sim
18:07:39domonok1CShaffer: also, we want see some code comming out of this usability study.. how are your coding skills ?
18:07:42gevaertsI didn't look too hard, since my area is not doable on a sim anyway, but if I do this game plugin, I might actually use it
18:09:09CShafferI am a pretty solid coder. I am experienced with java, c++, HTML, PHP, ASP .NET
18:09:43CShafferI am a graduating CS major from The College of New JErsey
18:10:02*DerPapst points out that html is not a programming languag :-P
18:10:24*gevaerts points out that he said 'coder', not 'programmer' ;)
18:10:37DerPapstmeh.
18:10:48*DerPapst goes to the corner
18:10:55CShafferlolol
18:10:55*gevaerts likes nitpicking
18:11:02linuxstb.NET isn't a language either, is it?
18:11:15CShafferuses C#
18:11:16gevaertsNo, but ASP .NET probably is
18:11:32domonok1.Net is more a framework, as you can use differen lang with it..
18:11:38CShafferyea its a framework
18:11:42CShafferVB, C#
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18:12:05bluebrotherhow about C? C is quite a different thing than C++ (but both are quite often mixed up)
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18:12:30CShafferI haven't had much experience with C at all. I was wondering how much of an issue that would be?
18:12:57CShafferWhen I initially applied, I wasn't sure how much code would be expected since it was a usability study.
18:13:21bluebrotherit's more ... say "basic". For example, there is nothing like a string.
18:13:32gevaertsWe're still not sure either ;) People seem to have different opinions on that
18:13:49domonok1i dont think there is much coding involved in the usability study, but we want you to implemtent all/ a view of your suggestions to try them out..
18:13:52bluebrotherand it's functional, not OOP. So quite some different approach in programmning
18:13:58DerPapstwell the ultimate goal of the study is that you put your findings in code to make rockbox more intuitive
18:14:13domonok1also its not easy to convice our user of changes, so something to try out is good..
18:14:21bluebrotherDerPapst: and wait for the core devs to dislike it ;-)
18:14:36CShafferhaha
18:14:38DerPapsthehe.. ture :-P
18:14:38gevaertsindeed. I think that we mainly want to see a prototype
18:14:39*bluebrother likes the current UI pretty much
18:14:39Nico_Pbluebrother: C is not functional programming... Lisp is. C is imperative
18:15:08*DerPapst hates functional languages
18:15:16markunor haskell
18:15:26DerPapst*shudder*
18:15:44thgzHi. When I enable equalizer, the voice begins stuttering. Has anyone noted this or is it only my problem? I'm using E200
18:15:55CShafferHave there been a lot of apps for the usability sutdy?
18:16:15bluebrotherNico_P: bah, damn. Meant procedural.
18:16:31domonok1CShaffer: 2 till now..
18:16:44CShafferyea
18:17:14*bluebrother goes standing in the corner
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18:17:33bluebrotherthgz: only voice or all playback?
18:18:35thgzOnly voice, except when voice is stuttering the playback is doing it also, but otherwise the playback is going fine
18:18:46gevaertsCShaffer: (disclaimer, personal opinion follows) I think the main problem a usability study will face is that rockbox doesn't have a clear leadership, which means there is no single person of small group that you have to convince to accept your suggestions, you have to convince a lot of people, and some of them can be quite stubborn
18:18:48domonok1CShaffer: but the usability study is really a bit difficult to satisfy, i think you have to convice a bit more, that your work really helps rockbox..
18:19:24bluebrotherthgz: ok, so both voice and playback are stuttering and without voice the music plays fine?
18:19:56CShafferyea when dealing with open-source that can often be the case
18:20:05thgzexactly. When I don't use voice (eg while in WPS) it is fine.
18:20:10gevaertsThat's also the main reason (IMHO) for needing one I think. Adding codecs and other basic features doesn't require much coordination, but enforcing UI guidelines without a strong leadership is hard
18:20:25waldoare there any plans for support of id3v2 cover art covers being shown instead of the workaround with the covers being saved sepparatly ?
18:20:37CShafferdefinitely
18:20:46bluebrotherthgz: well, sounds like a performance issue to me then −− with voice running two audio streams need to get decoded and mixed.
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18:20:57bluebrotherwhat codec are you using?
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18:21:27thgzI've thought something similar... I've only tested with mp3
18:21:37gevaertswaldo: I think the main problem for doing that is that there is currently no jpeg code in the core (there is a plugin, but that's not usable in this context). Also, if I understand things correctly, the current id3 parser has trouble with large tags
18:21:57bluebrotherare those high bitrate? mp3 shouldn't need too much cpu
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18:22:32thgzThey're something between 128 and 320 kbps. I can test with different bitrates
18:22:39*bluebrother doesn't consider separate artwork files a workaround
18:23:24raxorhey there... im kinda of a newbie here.. ive recently purchased the iriver x20.. and am interested on porting the rockbox to it.. but i just dont know where to start.. ive gone through the wiki but it all seems a bit too confusing..
18:23:26waldogevaerts: k thanks same situations as a few months ago then :) ... btw whitch id3 tags are used ? v1 or v2 when both are available ?
18:23:34gevaertsCShaffer: I think I need to add one more disclaimer. While I may talk a lot, I've been involved in rockbox for less than two months, so my views on things can definitely be wrong
18:23:46BigBambiraxor: Have you seen www.rockbox.org/wiki/NewPort
18:24:04gevaertswaldo: I think v2 has priority, and if any v2 tags are present v1 will not be used at all, but I could be wrong
18:24:13BigBambiwaldo: V2
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18:24:17waldoand what if a specific tag is only in one version and not in the other
18:24:20linuxstbwaldo: v2 is read first, if there is no v2 tag, then Rockbox searches for and uses the v1 tag
18:24:24BigBambiv1 are ignored if v2 are present
18:24:34BigBambi(as gevaerts said)
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18:24:50BigBambi(and linuxstb)
18:24:52raxorwell yeah ive checked that out.. i identified the chip being used and all.. i just want to know what to do next?
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18:25:08BigBambiraxor: Identify how to run custom code would be good
18:25:13linuxstbraxor: You've seen the NewPort page?
18:25:14waldothus; if i have replaygain in a v1 tag but not in v2 it should still be used ?
18:25:30BigBambiraxor: Is there a firmware update mechanism? And a way to recover if a bad update is made?
18:25:32waldo.... while all the rest of the info is in the v2 tags
18:25:40BigBambilinuxstb: He has
18:25:43gevaertswaldo: in that case it will not be used
18:26:10thgzOn 320 kbps mp3 some stuttering ockurs.
18:26:23linuxstbraxor: What CPU is it?
18:26:28BigBambithgz: Target?
18:26:49waldogevaerts: Thought so kinda sux .. amarok replaygain script scans and seems to save it in the V1 tags or so 'cause rockbox doesn't see the ones i scanned with amarok, those i scanned in my foobar200 days plat just fine
18:26:57raxorit just has an firmware updater which checks for ur firmware.. if ur firmwar is uptodate it says no upgrade required.
18:27:08thgzSansa e200.
18:27:15raxoris tehre any tool which i could use to extract the firmware?
18:27:22linuxstbwaldo: You can't store replaygain tags in id3v1. Maybe it's storing it in APE tags?
18:27:25BigBambiReplaygain support on linux is ropey at best
18:27:38gevaertswaldo: id3v2 has a −−convert option that you might try. I've not used it, but it might work
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18:28:36thgzWell, when eq is enabled there seems to be trouble on voicing those menus. I mean when I click on equalizer some options sometimes are voiced and sometimes not, but when eq is disabled I haven't taht problem.
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18:34:30thgzON 128 kbps mp3 the result is the same
18:36:49raxorok.. i just found out that theres a tool to re install the firmware incase a bad updat is made..
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18:38:21Cazoummmmhh...
18:38:31CazouArchos 404, Not easily unbrickable
18:38:38Cazousome test points
18:38:42raxorwhat are the next steps?
18:38:46Cazoubut no jtag prot
18:38:53Cazous/prot/port
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19:44:08pixelma(or would like to)
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20:33:55*gevaerts reminds people that his devcon free beer offer expires today
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20:37:17peturwhat was that again?
20:37:44gevaertsif the date for the devcon is decided this week, I'll buy everyone there a beer
20:39:11disorganizerwhich timezone?
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20:40:04*gevaerts is willing to be flexible, so the week will end when it's no longer officially 30 march 2008 in any part of the world
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20:40:27disorganizerwell, that will still leave some time
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20:50:11disorganizera question regarding gcos: shouldnt the usablility study also have as requirement that all recommendations are implementable in the current structure of rockbox without programming all of it? (or at least something like that)
20:51:52disorganizeralso, should we "mark" the projects for which we already have applications? maybe some students then decide to use another project.
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20:52:23gevaertsI don't think so, for various reasons. It would require the student to know too much of the UI internals, and it could be too restrictive
20:53:24disorganizerthe risk though is that the only result will be a list of requirements which are impossible to fullfill
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20:53:47gevaertsand I don't think so either :). We want the best possible application for each job, and this would chase people away who are only interested in a specific project
20:54:03linuxstbBut the usability project should also include some implementation...
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20:55:26gevaertsI think that if anyone does the usability study, he/she should communicate with the rest of us, which would allow us to steer them in the right direction and avoid impossible suggestions (but good suggestions that require major work are IMHO acceptable)
20:56:49gevaertsThe GraphicsAPI wiki page mentions "Full clipping support". I can't find anything more about it. How does this work ?
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20:58:23*gevaerts is trying to map the sgt-puzzles drawing api to the rockbox plugin graphics api
20:58:26linuxstbAny attempt to draw outside the LCD (and now, current viewport) will be clipped.
20:58:52linuxstbI'm not sure how to explain clipping..
20:59:01gevaertsOK, so no support for non-viewport clipping regions ?
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20:59:52linuxstbgevaerts: What do you mean by "clipping region" ? That sounds like a viewport to me...
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21:01:05gevaertsIn the sgt-puzzles api, it's dynamic; i.e. a specific game can call clip(drawing *dr, int x, int y, int w, int h); which will restrict drawing to the specified rectangle. This rectangle can be different every time
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21:02:26Hodapphmm... wonder if I should feel like a sinner for using iTunes & default firmware to handle all the podcast stuff even though I use Rockbox for all other audio...
21:02:55gevaertsOf course you should ;)
21:03:56HodappI'm anticipating it being useful when I'm in "grab my iPod from the dock and run out the door" mode and I need something to listen to while I drive an hour to work that isn't raving right-wing lunatics talking about how wonderful of a man Bush is.
21:04:48*disorganizer pillorys hodapp
21:05:00disorganizer-y+ie
21:05:00Hodapppillorys?
21:05:08Hodapppillories?
21:05:37disorganizersee dictionary
21:05:56 Quit BHSPitMonkey (Success)
21:05:56Hodappoh, those.
21:06:15 Join Pio [0] (n=sean@64.251.10.106)
21:06:15Hodappwhy?!?!
21:06:30disorganizeryou use itunes :-)
21:07:12Hodappnot for anything important, just for syncing calendar/contacts/podcasts
21:07:20*disorganizer notices he forgot the :-) again
21:07:21HodappI use VLC for most else
21:10:07gevaertsIs there a way to copy a rectangular area from the framebuffer to somewhere else in memory ?
21:10:15 Join szLacko [0] (n=szlacko@catv-50635a83.catv.broadband.hu)
21:11:25linuxstbgevaerts: Not really, but you can access the framebuffer directly (rb->lcd_framebuffer)
21:11:39gevaertsok, so I can implement it reasonably easily
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21:11:49linuxstbBut the framebuffer format is target-dependent, and there are about 6-7 formats
21:12:02gevaerts:(
21:12:41linuxstbWhy do you need to copy from the framebuffer?
21:12:45gevaertsCan I use viewports dynamically, i.e. set one whenever I want to restrict some drawing to a specific area of the screen ?
21:13:22linuxstbYes, but can't you just restrict it directly?
21:13:43gevaertslinuxstb: I'm looking into porting sgt-puzzles. This specifies a drawing api for use by the puzzles that each port must implement. If I can map all of them directly to GraphicsAPI functions, it will be much easier
21:13:55 Quit Pio__ (Connection timed out)
21:14:10stripwax_or potentially write some simple wrapper functions and map the api to those?
21:14:11linuxstbThe only time you can't have "temporary" viewports is if you're displaying scrolling lines - in that case, the viewport needs to stay the same for the lifetime of the scrolling line
21:14:27gevaertsI won't need those
21:14:52gevaertsstripwax_: they will have to be wrappers. The exact function parameters are not always the same
21:15:04 Quit ompaul (Client Quit)
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21:17:03gevaertsSo I will need to do a full implementation of rectangular-area-copying, and circle and polygon drawing. The rest are (reasonably) simple wrappers. That should be doable.
21:21:32stripwax_and they will go into the plugin lib?
21:22:12gevaertsI also need some kind of tick() function, and of course malloc() :)
21:23:15gevaertsstripwax_: maybe, I don't know how big the demand is
21:23:28*disorganizer saw the m-word!
21:23:51*gevaerts didn't dare mentionning realloc()
21:24:21domonokygevaerts: at least circle and polygon drawing would be nice in the plugin api...
21:25:10gevaertsIndeed
21:25:14domonokyand for the tick(), there is either rb->currenttick, or i think there is a user timer aviable..
21:25:47gevaertsThere has to be something, since plugins do animations...
21:26:12gevaertsBasically this thing wants a callback that is regularly called
21:27:05gevaertsThe great thing is that this will give us 27 games in one go (minus some that we already have and some that might be too hard to map to the available buttons) :)
21:27:40domonoky:-) there is rb->timer_register() which takes a callback..
21:28:28gevaertswonderful. This entire project should be pretty easy :)
21:29:25gevaertsIt's not often that you find software that actually clearly defines a well thought out API to separate out port-specific code
21:29:44domonokyfor malloc you have to look at other plugins, or just use dbestfit from our swedes :-)
21:30:52*gevaerts will try his best to sneak a malloc through the defence perimeter
21:31:19BigBambigevaerts: You have an anti-pitchfork and flaming torches device?
21:31:22domonokyi think malloc for plugins is ok... its already used by some..
21:31:49gevaertsBigBambi: I hope the games will distract them enough to let me through :)
21:31:54BigBambi:)
21:33:09 Quit Thundercloud_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:38:06domonokyanother Theme/WPS editor application has popped up, this time with the PC part in java.. :-/
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21:45:36*petur spots a much cheaper MK8007GAH on ebay...
21:45:54szLackoHi! My name is Laszlo Szilagyi, and I'm interested in the GSOC 2008. I'm about to write and send my application (ok, last minute I know). Michael Sevakis mentioned a "high quality resampler" wich should be implemented, but gave me no more details about the broject. I'm interested in such a task, but I'm afraid I need more information about it to write my application, don't I? Thanks for help!
21:46:24szLackobroject->project...
21:46:39domonokyhi szLacko, welcome to the rockbox community ! :-)
21:46:53szLackohi!
21:46:56gevaertsjhMikeS: telephone call for you :)
21:47:14desowinyou sent that already to maling list, didn't you szLacko?
21:48:07szLackoYes I did.
21:48:31szLackoBut how exact my application should be?
21:49:03domonokytake a look at: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GSoCApplicationTemplate2008
21:49:12domonokyand feel free to aks questions here
21:49:28 Quit nplus (Remote closed the connection)
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21:50:01linuxstbszLacko: What are you proposing to do? Is a resampler a whole summer's work?
21:51:50 Quit Mathiasdm ("Yuuw!")
21:52:25szLackoI've read the "Advice for students" stuff from google, and also the template, but the google stuff speaks about describing "milestones" and also making "schedule", but I haven't got the specification af that resampler, also I don't know anything about it, Michael send me a mail about it, and if that is possible I'll happily do that task, but it isn't in the "ideas list".
21:52:55szLackoI'm also interested in the other "ideas" in connection with DS
21:53:00BigBambiszLacko: As I understand it (someone correct me if I am wrong), at the moment everything is output at 44.1 kHz by Rockbox. Any files at other sample rates are simply linearly interpolated. We would like a better resampler :)
21:53:16szLacko...inconnection with digital signal processing.
21:53:51peturszLacko: see http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/apps/dsp.c?revision=16721&view=markup for some code (I think)
21:54:24domonokyso we need a highquality software resampler which works for normal Audiofrequencies :-)
21:54:49desowinszLacko: I'm saying this from student point of view - I dislike that schedule to describe, as writing schedule is imo harder than actual coding ;)
21:55:38domonokythe shedule will be incorrect from the day you start coding, but it show that you know what todo.. :-)
21:55:50szLackoOk, its clear, and I have experience with decimation filters, digital down converters, interpolation shold not be a problem.
21:56:31*disorganizer thinks that the sense of a project-schedule is to be incorrect until you finish the project. its there to warn you if you take too much time for a task or are too lazy :-)
21:56:36domonokyszLacko: you can also apply for more then one projects, if you can decide what you like more :-)
21:57:21domonokys/can/cant :-)
21:57:53desowindisorganizer: personally (speaking of soc 2007), I haven't had scedule, I was just doing actual coding, and I've finished 2 weeks before deadline (I haven't worked for rockbox as soc, so this might be a bit offtopic now...)
21:58:50disorganizerdesowin: but the sense of the gsoc is to let people practice coding in a "clean" approach which they can later maybe use in a job. which normally includes the "overhead" :-)
21:58:59domonokyalso you dont need to put a shedule or milestones into your application, but it helps :-)
21:59:12szLackoSo the applications are judged by the Rockbox, not by the Google?
21:59:19desowinexactly
21:59:32desowinorganisations rank the applications by themselves.
21:59:41domonokyyes, thei are judged by us, google decides only how much students we get..
22:00
22:00:23szLackoAnd how Google make the decision about the student numbers?
22:00:53szLackoFor example, how many students you had last year?
22:01:29domonokyslots depend on the popularity of the project (how many applications) and a few other factors.. thei are also cut at top and bottom.. so there is a min and amx ..
22:01:34desowinmost important is popularity, then other factors like completion rate for other years, there's doc for this
22:01:43domonokyLast year rockbox had 4 slots..
22:01:44desowinhttp://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-announce/web/notes-on-student-allocations
22:02:36 Join clincher [0] (n=clincher@96.240.96.79)
22:02:37domonokyso to all students here: apply then rockbox gets more slots *hehe*
22:02:45 Nick clincher is now known as ceclin (n=clincher@96.240.96.79)
22:02:53szLacko:)
22:03:08disorganizeralso there are enough really interesting projects to choose from at rockbox :-)
22:03:54disorganizernot to mention the excellent community
22:04:27szLackoThanks for the link, got the picture about slots...
22:04:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:04:58*HEx wonders how many people have yet to apply at this late stage
22:05:21*domonoky thinks there are many, they are students ! :-)
22:05:24BigBambiI suspect a great number of people for all projects apply at the last minute
22:05:24HEx(why yes, I am considering it :)
22:05:31BigBambiHEx: Which project?
22:05:43BigBambi(s)
22:05:58HExporting to new hardware
22:06:03BigBambiWhich hardware?
22:06:19desowinI'm buying myself AP, so if deadline gets extended there's (small) possibility of me sendinf an application ;)
22:06:32HExgood question. I figured you guys would know more about the potential options than I would
22:06:48szLackoSo appliing so late is not a plus? :P
22:06:59BigBambiIt'd be an idea to know what is involved
22:07:14BigBambiHEx: Some potential ports will be much 'easier' than others
22:07:16domonokyszLacko: not really, but we are forgiving :-)
22:07:17HExHEx/tmp/rockbox-gsoc">http://sphere.chronosempire.org.uk/~HEx/tmp/rockbox-gsoc are my current thoughts
22:07:18 Nick soap_ is now known as Sopa (n=soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
22:07:20 Nick Sopa is now known as Soap (n=soap@cpe-65-24-116-43.columbus.res.rr.com)
22:07:30HExBigBambi: yes, I'm very aware of that
22:07:34*bluebrother wonders where he can find an overview of all applications
22:07:37BigBambiAbility to run custom code, encryption, similarity to existing ports etc
22:07:46disorganizerwould a v2 sansa count as a new port?
22:07:55linuxstbdisorganizer: Of course...
22:07:58desowinyes, it's new hardware
22:08:09bluebrother*SoC applications that is
22:08:13disorganizerjust wanted to have that in the logs for them to read :-)
22:08:43domonokybluebrother: only in the google webapp for mentors.. :-)
22:08:46desowinthose who read log are likely to know that.
22:09:07bluebrotherdamn, does this mean I'd need to become a mentor?
22:09:24 Quit midgey ()
22:09:48domonokyHex: a player with a PP chip would probably easier... as we know a good share of this SOC..
22:09:55*bluebrother considered getting a mentor but doesn't know if time will permit
22:10:07desowinbluebrother: yes, you need to be approved mentor to read the application, but you don't have to mentor anyone
22:10:12BigBambidomonoky: But the lack of data sheets is 'interesting with pp
22:10:25HExdomonoky: do we know how to use both CPUs?
22:10:36domonokyyes to both :-)
22:10:38BigBambiHEx: MPEGPlayer and speex use both cores
22:10:48BigBambis/speex/SPC
22:10:56szLackoSo if my application meets the "standard" of the Rockbox template, I'm good to go?
22:11:06domonokyperhaps also a TCC based player would be good (see forum)..
22:11:09desowinif application is good you're good
22:11:11desowin;)
22:11:22HExTCC => telechips?
22:11:26domonokythey all boot with tcctool, so easy access for custom code..
22:11:52szLackoOk. :) Another question: the coding is in C/C++ or assembly?
22:12:01desowinmostly C
22:12:02BigBambiszLacko: Rockbox in general is C
22:12:05domonokyC/asm :-)
22:12:16szLackookok:)
22:12:16BigBambiszLacko: But if you are doing speed critical things, then there is some ASM
22:12:37szLackoGot it.
22:12:44gevaertsHEx: just remember that "porting to a new target" will have a relatively high risk of failing, even if you do everything perfectly.
22:13:02HExgevaerts: yes, which is why things like timelines bother me :)
22:13:16desowinporting can't be timelined
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22:13:41domonokyset milestones instead of a timeline, should be easier..
22:14:28gevaertsHEx: for a new port, we will probably be flexible on those :). The biggest problem is that if you fail, you loose some money (maybe not a big problem for you, but it's still there), and the project gets some minus-points when allocation projects and slots next year
22:14:48BigBambiszLacko: And for ASM critical stuff, remember we have three different architectures - SH, Coldfire (m68k), and ARM :)
22:15:04gevaertsszLacko: I would say that for DSP work C is needed, and ASM welcome
22:15:06HExhow much do, say, PP targets differ from each other? I know they share a firmware format, for example
22:15:27linuxstbNot all of them do - e.g. ipods have their own format.
22:15:29disorganizera milestone ist just a point in the project with a measurable success. if you put the milestone together with time you get a timeline, so there is no difference. timelines are for changing. for nothing else.
22:15:51HExis it just a case of figuring out how to wrangle the LCD and DAC and other bits?
22:15:55linuxstbHEx: The differences are in all the other hardware - LCD, buttons, power management etc.
22:16:00BigBambihehe 'just'
22:16:13disorganizerwhat happens if a gsoc project is not able to finish during a summer? will a report about the status be enough to be a success? or maybe even a "not possible" as result?
22:16:15HExit's all relative :)
22:16:48XavierGrhow many gsoc applications till now?
22:16:49szLackoBigBambi: I was just composing my questions about the architectures if ASM... :)
22:16:55BigBambi:)
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22:18:27domonokyXavierGr: 10 with 4 useable ones i think.. :-)
22:18:59XavierGrI am in a dillema whether I should apply or not :\
22:19:09domonokydisorganizer: depends on what "not finished" means..
22:19:31BigBambiszLacko: The SH is used in the old Archos players, which have a slow CPU and use hardware MP3 decoding
22:19:55BigBambiszLacko: So in the software playback targets Coldfire and ARM
22:20:02HExcompared with having a black box with an unknown CPU architecture and a big blob of binary randomness that nobody understands, it's "just" :)
22:20:12domonokyszLacko: so no resampler with sh asm needed... only rm and m68k asm :-)
22:20:15disorganizerdomonoky: well, it could be that during the progress it is noticed that its just too much work for a summer (especially with the ports).
22:20:15BigBambiHEx: You just described PP
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22:20:27XavierGrI am still a student and will have a lot of free time on summer, the only part that interests me is MPT protocol or (if my sansa c240 is a v2 when arrives) to help with v2 port
22:20:39BigBambiwell, not unknown CPU architecture, but still, you get the point
22:21:11gevaertsHEx: as a qualifying task, you might want to find out how to set RAM access priorities on PP so USB works properly :)
22:21:22domonokydisorganizer: for example the usb project last year was a success, while usb still doesnt reliable work... but another one, the TTS App failed completly
22:21:22BigBambigevaerts: sneaky :)
22:21:32 Quit csc` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:21:43*disorganizer wonders what the TTS app is or was
22:21:52HExheh, that would require some research :)
22:21:52BigBambiTest to speach
22:21:55SoapText To Speech
22:21:59BigBambi*text
22:22:12disorganizerah, ok. and the reason for failure was?
22:22:19bluebrotherXavierGr: well, then apply for the MTP project ;-)
22:22:27linuxstbdisorganizer: The student never did any work...
22:22:28domonokydisorganizer: no progress.. :-)
22:22:37BigBambiNothing happened
22:22:47szLackoAnd what about the other "dsp related" projects, like the "DSP plugins", "realaudio codec", maybe the "better video support" ?
22:22:50HExis the current state of USB that it only works in diskmode, which is provided by the original fw/bootloader?
22:23:10BigBambiszLacko: What about them - they would be good too... :)
22:23:20domonokyXavierGr: then go and apply for MTP.. :-)
22:23:29BigBambiHEx: On the software USB players, yes - the Rockbox USB works, but is unstable
22:23:32gevaertsHEx: on PortalPlayer we have mostly working native USB, except that it doesn't work if something else accesses the RAM simultaneously
22:23:46disorganizerok. well "not finished" definitely would mean "work was done" and the student needs to proove this by getting all results into a report. so the result for example for a porting effort could also be the research done and maybe some steps taken. but nothing is not "not finished", its "not started"
22:24:00XavierGris the deadline today or tomorrow?
22:24:02BigBambiIt is also not finished :)
22:24:11BigBambiXavierGr: tomorrow, but it may be extended
22:24:26linuxstbXavierGr: Tomorrow (US time, so later for us EU people)
22:24:46HEx"March 31 @ 0000 GMT" => 3.5 hours away, no?
22:25:05disorganizernot GMT. earlier today it was said "last day of march in any timezone"
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22:25:22szLackoIf I apply for more projects for "Rockbox", and if I am "sufficent" can I decide lately, wich one I go for?
22:25:24domonokyapril 1 00:00 UTC
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22:25:36linuxstbi.e. Monday night/Tuesday morning
22:25:36BigBambiszLacko: I believe the mentors rate them
22:26:16domonokyszLacko: if there are collisions, thei will be resolved with the students help shortly before start :-)
22:26:16XavierGrI was waiting until now to see if we got many applications. But I think there are too few of them considering last year, so it shouldn't be a harm to apply too
22:26:55linuxstbXavierGr: No-one has applied for the "Rockbox as application" - and I think that would be a popular one amongst mentors...
22:27:01domonokyXavierGr: pleasy apply it helps rockbox, even if you arent taken..
22:27:18BigBambilinuxstb: And potential users of said application :)
22:27:22XavierGrlinuxstb: MTP is already applied for?
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22:27:27*linuxstb wants Rockbox as console app...
22:27:34domonokyno MTP app till now..
22:27:38*BigBambi wants a GUI dammit
22:27:43*disorganizer would love psp and ds ports of rockbox. maybe a wii-ware port *sigh*
22:27:45linuxstbXavierGr: No, but that's risky given the problems with USB in general.
22:27:57szLackoI see the application deadline is tomorrow, can I send it for somebody for revision (debug... :) ) before the "official" application?
22:28:04XavierGrlinuxstb: you have a point in that
22:28:15szLackoof course after I finish it... :P
22:28:27domonokyszLacko: feel free to post a pastebin link of it here..
22:28:34BigBambiszLacko: The dev mailing list, or announce it here would be good for public review - mentors if you want to keep it private
22:28:37 Quit Thundercloud (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:28:37domonokyand ask for review..
22:28:40XavierGralso if my c240 comes as a v2 I won't have an MTP target save perhaps GIgabeat S which USB doesn't run at all
22:28:48XavierGrthat's why I am a little hesitant
22:28:51linuxstbszLacko: Even after you submit, people will comment, and you can make changes (or post clarification comments)
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22:29:26gevaertsXavierGr, linuxstb: while MTP is risky, it can be done (I think USB works well enough to at least make it working for "evaluation"). It's just that it might not work well enough to be enabled in the official builds
22:30:38szLackoOk, thanks for the help! I go, and create a "beta" application... :)
22:31:14desowinlinuxstb: rockbox as console? can you explain?
22:31:24 Quit Buschel ()
22:31:35BigBambiszLacko: cool :)
22:31:55disorganizerdesowin: console APP
22:32:06linuxstbdesowin: A console application - basically the sim with something like an ncurses UI
22:32:08gevaertsXavierGr: (thinking aloud) is this c240 on order now ? Maybe you can apply for more than one project, and let us know before the decision date if it's a v1 ?
22:32:30gevaertsIf it isn't we just drop that application...
22:32:47linuxstbSo either MTP or port Rockbox to the V2...
22:33:06gevaerts"do something interesting with a c240" ?
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22:33:21kugeldisorganizer: I think the major problem of the current bmp resize is, that it needs the smooth resize patch
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22:33:46kugelwhich is a) a plugin and/or b) raises the bin size too much when in core
22:33:47linuxstbXavierGr: Did you order from bigpockets.co.uk?
22:33:47XavierGrgevaerts: I am waiting for the said c240 as we speak, it was shipped on Monday
22:33:57XavierGrlinuxstb: no eBay
22:34:00disorganizerkugel: and whats the problem with the smooth resize patch?
22:34:05kugeldisorganizer: Nico_P played a bit with smooth resize in core
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22:34:17kugeldisorganizer: I told you
22:34:37XavierGrthey told me 5-7 shipment days so hopefully it should be here on Monday or Tuesday
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22:35:03disorganizerkugel: when?
22:35:16kugelthe comment above your last one
22:35:21kugelhere in irc
22:35:27gevaertsXavierGr: from what I understand the decision deadline is on 2008-04-11, so this should be doable. Of course, it means more work for you (multiple applications...)
22:36:08XavierGrgevaerts: so you think it would be okay to make 2 applications, won't that be considered "weird" by some?
22:36:18disorganizerkugel: well, the width-limit is reset to lcd-width as it was before (all patches without were indeed experimental see comments). so thats a non-problem. btw: i have my sansa working with 500x500 bmp's flawlessly
22:36:39kugel"which is a) a plugin and/or b) raises the bin size too much when in core"
22:37:07gevaertsXavierGr: I can only speak for myself of course, but if you make it clear why you're doing this I don't think it is a problem.
22:37:09kugelcore features shouldn't rely on plugins, and bin size increase is probably not worth the resize
22:37:28*gevaerts asks domonoky and linuxstb what they think about it
22:37:44gevaertsOr any other mentors who might be awake
22:37:46kugeldisorganizer: This has been discussed several times, and I afaik some devs were in favor of committing
22:38:20disorganizerkugel: so lets leave smooth resizing out in the first commit and talk about it seperately :-)
22:38:26linuxstbgevaerts: I'm just looking to see if the google FAQ says anything about it...
22:38:52linuxstb"Yes, each student may submit up to twenty applications. However, only one application will be accepted. We've heard from our mentoring organizations that quality is better than quantity."
22:39:08gevaertsSo it's up to us basically
22:39:09kugeldisorganizer: Unfortunately I can't do anything to make the devs committing any patch
22:39:16XavierGrah nice
22:39:34disorganizerkugel: no, but we can ask nicely what would be needed to get it commitable
22:39:56linuxstbXavierGr: What's the second project you may apply for? (if MTP is #1)
22:40:04gevaertsOf course, even if it is a v1, people might still select the other project...
22:40:14XavierGrI will make a draft for both of them tonight and hopefully will submit them tomorrow
22:40:19kugeldisorganizer: afaik the main argument against the commit was that the pc is a much better platform to resize the bitmaps
22:40:25XavierGrlinuxstb: port of Rockbox to v2 sanca c240
22:40:37domonokyXavierGr: feel free to make as many application as you want and can.
22:40:41gevaertsAnd implement mtp for that one ;) ?
22:40:48disorganizerkugel: my counter argument is that 100*100 in diskspace is less than 150*150
22:40:50XavierGr(if it is a v2 it will be unusable to me so it will be a nice motivation)
22:41:10kugeldisorganizer: I like to have it committed to
22:41:25XavierGrgevaerts: sure, why not, if I manage to port Rockbox on it then it shouldn't be more difficult than that :P
22:41:27kugelBut I understand if devs don't think the feature is worth the bin size increase
22:41:39bluebrotherit has long been an argument that static tasks are better done in prior
22:42:08XavierGrwell even if I don't get accepted at least it might help Rockbox, I don't want to see the project with too few applications
22:42:21linuxstbXavierGr: You're allowed up to 20 ;)
22:42:23gevaertsbluebrother: static tasks like decoding an mp3 file to PCM ?
22:42:29disorganizerbluebrother: another argument is: the less user-noticable changes are offered by custom builds, the less of such builds will exist
22:42:31bluebrothergevaerts: hehe ;-)
22:42:33 Quit ceclin ("This computer has gone to sleep")
22:42:36XavierGrdomonoky, gevaerts, linuxstb: thanks for the info
22:42:50BigBambiMy argument for bmp resize is the ability to use different WPSs with different sized album art without many different bmps for each album
22:43:00bluebrotherdisorganizer: well, I don't care about unsupported builds.
22:43:03disorganizergevaerts: or making playlists :-)
22:43:17kugeldisorganizer: Agree, bmp resize is one of the main resize that I keep up my custom build
22:43:37*gevaerts deletes half of the source tree
22:43:37BigBambiAnd the ability to put on a new WPS without having to rerun a script on my entire collection to generate another different size
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22:43:48kugelbluebrother: but you care about that users use them instead of the official one
22:43:49BigBambi* of album art
22:44:13disorganizerbluebrother: problem there is possible incompatibility of syntax and function of themes though
22:44:16bluebrotherkugel: only if they want to get support.
22:44:53disorganizerthe "small changes" like menus etc are irrelevant, but for me as user it is inconvienient to have themes running on one build but not on another
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22:45:24kugelJdGordon|zzz: ping
22:45:28disorganizeratm there are only 2 "big" differences: multifont and bmp-resize
22:45:44kugelcustomlist! :P
22:45:53linuxstbDoes bmp resize change any WPS tags?
22:46:03disorganizerkugel: well, cl is not too common just now.
22:46:11kugelBut I made the patch to get committed! And not to stay in my build forever
22:46:22disorganizerlinuxstb: i think there is one more alignment-tag.
22:47:05kugellinuxstb: bmp resize doesn't change the syntax very much, afaik it just changes the default behaviour to resize
22:47:12disorganizerlinuxstb: im not sure whether its still "incompatible" but i think it has been made compatible now. not sure though
22:47:34disorganizerin the beginning the "zoom" tag was needed, thus resulting in invalid wps for svn
22:47:44kugellinuxstb: so if the user does only %Cl|10|10|100|100 it will resize by default
22:47:48*linuxstb wonders if that was a yes or a no
22:47:50disorganizernow the default is changed to "zoom" (or resize i think)
22:48:05*bluebrother would like Rockbox becoming stable instead of fancy
22:48:10disorganizerit was a "no not any more"
22:48:16kugellinuxstb: it doesn't remove tags or parameters
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22:48:54linuxstbbluebrother: I would like the theme/wps syntax to become stable - to avoid the 100s of themes which are incompatible with official builds and confuse users.
22:49:03disorganizerbluebrother: so stop making major changes which break the basics :-)
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22:49:31kugelI'd like a tracker cleanup week again actually
22:49:37*disorganizer too
22:49:42bluebrotherlinuxstb: I agree, this would be nice.
22:49:59*bluebrother thought about bringing that topic (tracker cleanup) up already
22:50:20 Quit MethoS-- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:50:59linuxstbbluebrother: What do you think about the idea to limit feature request creation to developers only?
22:51:04kugelbluebrother: So I did that now for you :P
22:51:08 Quit leox (Connection timed out)
22:51:49kugellinuxstb: I don't actually like the idea, eventhough 95% of the feature requests are just stupid
22:52:04disorganizerimho if we need new wps/theme syntax (like viewportification of whatever), we should make it ready until the new gallery comes up
22:52:28linuxstbkugel: The point is that the feature tracker is useless at the moment...
22:52:31disorganizerlinuxstb: anyways some way for users to put up "feature requests" should be there, if only its a forum thread
22:52:51BigBambiThey are just ignored...
22:52:56kugelI agree, but I'd rather completely remove it then
22:53:17BigBambikugel: It is useful for devs to keep track of ideas
22:53:19kugelI think excluding the userbase from contributing with their ideas isn't the right way
22:53:30n1slinuxstb: I think only allowing FR's for devs is good seeing how the situation is in the tracker and how many of those actually get implemented...
22:53:40disorganizerwhat about allowing the users to open feature requests in a special subforum and discuss them. if a dev thinks they are good he/she can close the forum thread and instead open a FS entry
22:53:51 Quit jhMikeS (Nick collision from services.)
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22:54:17disorganizerthat way we would have user discussion about feature requests, so the devs can also see which features are wanted and which are just nice to have
22:54:39disorganizeralso devs could explain there why some fr's cant become reality
22:55:20n1sIMHO having user feature requests in the tracker and most (all?) devs ignoring them is worse than disallowing them for non devs
22:55:45disorganizeri was talking about the forum, not fs
22:55:58n1sdisorganizer: the vast majority of requests _can_ become reality if someone is interested in them...
22:56:22bluebrotherlinuxstb: well, if we tell users to discuss feature requests here first this sounds interesting
22:56:48n1sbut i think that what you suggested is how it will work, informal requests can still be made and anyone is free to discuss in the forum or here
22:57:22disorganizerbluebrother: though the discussion via forum will reach more users
22:57:42disorganizerand users will prefer searching the forum rathe r than the chatlogs :-)
22:57:59bluebrotherdiscussion in the forums is fine too ... just discuss it, and if it turns out to be a good idea some dev can still add it to the tracker
22:58:08BigBambidisorganizer: Users but not devs
22:58:19linuxstbI don't think we want a dedicated forum either - feature ideas can be posted in the relevant sub-forum (e.g. plugins, playback...), and I'm sure will quite often come up in other threads.
22:58:43*BigBambi sees the forums turning into flyspray
22:58:45bluebrotheryep ... and discussion among devs will happen here anyway.
22:58:55BigBambiAnd just getting horribly cluttered in turn
22:59:05BigBambiIt is just moving the problem IMO
22:59:26disorganizerlinuxstb: though a dedicated forum will make it easier to find and filter existing fr's.
22:59:30bluebrothercut down users from feature requests at all? Doesn't sound like a better solution to me
22:59:44BigBambiIf they are in the same sub forum, tech support will get lost in amongst all the ideas
22:59:54disorganizerimho some interesting fr's could go unnoticed in the other chatter in normal forums.
23:00
23:00:16 Quit davina (Remote closed the connection)
23:00:21bluebrotherwe could have a (read-only) subforum with feature requests that have been discussed and either rejected or moved to the tracker.
23:00:32*disorganizer didnt mean forum but subforum
23:00:40linuxstbThis all seems too much work...
23:00:43*gevaerts finds the information FS #8830 very interesting, even (or because) if he doesn't understand hardware well enough to really know what it means
23:00:49n1sthe point is that we don't want to have a 'place' for requests as that implies anyone will look at them (AFAIU)
23:01:02gevaertss/information/information in/
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23:01:17BigBambiI wouldn't object to a sub forum, but I think mixing feature requests into the existing forums would greatly reduce their usefulness
23:01:31linuxstbIf we leave the feature requests open, I think we need to be clearer about when to close them. People seem too quick to reject requests that are technically possible.
23:01:33 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:02:36*linuxstb counts 477 open feature requests on the tracker...
23:02:54disorganizerBigBambi: exactly my point. also a FR will be unnoticed when just inside a 10 page thread. but if we officially say "put all fr's in the subforum for feature requests and seach before you post" will have them in a defined place.
23:03:08 Quit Thundercloud_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:03:14linuxstbdisorganizer: You think feature requests are noticed on flyspray?
23:03:18n1slinuxstb: If we only close impossible and clearly unwanted requests the amount will grow forever if the pace they are implemented remains as it is now
23:03:33disorganizerlinuxstb: no, but they could be on a dedicated forum
23:03:38 Quit BHSPitMonkey (SendQ exceeded)
23:03:45linuxstbdisorganizer: Why would that be different to flyspray?
23:03:49bluebrotherlinuxstb: maybe people are too quick at rejecting, but having that many open request doesn't help either.
23:04:14disorganizerwell, if the top discussion in the forum is a feature request, every day, maybe some day a dev will look at it :-
23:04:15 Quit mikus ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
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23:04:51BigBambiI don't know whether it'd make feature requests better, I just don't want to make the forums worse
23:04:53disorganizeralso, uninteresting fr's will go down the list soon. so the top threads will be obviously the most interesting features.
23:05:09bluebrotherwe could also create some policy about strictly closing feature requests −− like stuff that most likely won't happen the next year will get closed as "later"
23:05:15disorganizerBigBambi: well, if its on a won subforum, where is the harm?
23:05:17BigBambiI don't personally want to have to read through loads of threads of feature requests to find and answer a support one
23:05:35BigBambidisorganizer: subforum is fine, but what is the difference to flyspray?
23:06:03disorganizerBigBambi: none. fs is then only for fr's which got generally accepted for implementation
23:06:15 Quit Feisar (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:06:24disorganizerfs of tomorrow= fr only from devs, fr's of users to its own subforum
23:06:38BigBambidisorganizer: Which will just be ignored
23:06:50disorganizerwell, like now, no?
23:06:55*n1s already ignores most of the forum :)
23:07:01BigBambiIt would make flyspray moe useful for devs though
23:07:06 Join Feisar [0] (n=jljhook@mun.irkki.fi)
23:07:43disorganizermy words
23:08:31*bluebrother curses DST :(
23:09:09*gevaerts just tries to live with it. Stupid politicians!
23:11:21 Quit petur ("*blam*")
23:11:49disorganizer"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it." Terry Pratchett
23:15:01Bagdernow we're at 9 gsoc applications
23:15:35n1sI don't see the problem as flyspray becoming less useful, rather the feature request system is not useful since devs ignore the requests so it seems like we tell users to file requests and they will be considered but they are in fact not.
23:16:31n1sBagder: great news! any interesting applications? :)
23:17:07BagderI think a few have potential, yes
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23:17:59*amiconn likes dst
23:18:40*gevaerts gives amiconn a strange look
23:18:56 Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:20:52*Hodapp gives amiconn a strange look
23:20:52*disorganizer needs to get some sleep
23:21:03disorganizergood night @ all
23:21:09 Quit MethoS (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:21:26 Quit disorganizer ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.13/2008031114]")
23:22:52gevaertsBagder: I don't mind (re. 'Rockbox mobile application')
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23:29:27*gevaerts wants to know what the timestamps near the gsoc application comments are supposed to represent. They seem to be in some weird timezone
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23:34:05scorchepixelma: am now
23:35:43*countrymonkey prays that 8496 will be committed soon.
23:36:35pixelmascorche: wanted to ask you about rockbox-themes but the actual question (worth it to replace the cabbiev2 packages in the WpsGallery) was already answered in the forums now
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23:39:38countrymonkeyIs there a possibility that 8496 can be committed? It hasn't been touched since its posting in January.
23:43:23bluebrotherthat patch inserts some strange character at various points´╗┐´╗┐
23:43:44*bluebrother wonders if this is just displayed strangely in his browser
23:44:23bluebrotherah, seems to be a BOM?!
23:45:18 Quit Thundercloud (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:46:05bluebrothershouldn't such a line get updated autmatically once the master is changed?
23:50:17pixelmano, it'll show up as difference the next time you run genlang on the file (IIRC)
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23:56:28phinzehello rockbox! i'm putting together a GSoC proposal and i'm wondering if anyone who's around would be willing to help me figure out which one would best suit my skills and rockbox's needs
23:56:32 Quit webguest70 (Client Quit)
23:57:20 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
23:57:51 Quit perrikwp (Remote closed the connection)
23:57:56gevaertsphinze: do you have some personal preference ? Also it might help if you tell us a bit about your experience in various domains
23:58:39phinzesure, i'm a graduating CS undergrad with a lot of experience in embedded systems research/implementation

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