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#rockbox log for 2008-04-22

00:02:05 Join cbr|w [0] (n=cbr@
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00:11:56 Part DavidSG
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00:51:41 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (n=d0365f55@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:52:19alienbiker99im still getting the FPA instruction errors when building for the S. do i need that multi lib patch?
00:52:47alienbiker99how do i get that
00:52:50DerPapstbut should have installed it
00:53:08alienbiker99i only installed the arm stuff
00:53:09LambdaCalculus37Can someone take a look at FS #8924 for me? It's an extra bit of info for the manual regarding my recently commited disktidy patch.
00:54:18alienbiker99oh wait i forgot to reconfigure, maybe thats it
00:54:20*LambdaCalculus37 will be working on some more functionality for disktidy later
00:55:30DerPapstLambdaCalculus37: i still think FS #8637 does that better.
00:55:44*LambdaCalculus37 thanks preglow for the commit :)
00:55:52alienbiker99hmmmm that didnt work
00:55:56DerPapstIt does the same like the one in SVN and is configureable
00:55:56 Quit LambdaCalculus37 (Client Quit)
00:56:49gevaertsalienbiker99: is your PATH correct ?
00:57:13alienbiker99erggg i don't know, how do i edit it?
00:57:45 Join austriancoder_ [0] (n=austrian@
00:57:49gevaertscygwin ?
00:58:30*gevaerts looks around for people who are familiar with that
00:58:45 Join javama1 [0] (
00:58:53DerPapstexport PATH=/usr/local/arm-elf/bin:$PATH
00:58:54gevaertsyou can run "echo $PATH" to see what it's currently set to
00:59:12alienbiker99ok thanks
00:59:22DerPapstdid you remove the old one before?
00:59:25 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (
00:59:33DerPapstnot sure if it's needed though
01:00:25alienbiker99i have 2 of the arm-elf/bin in my path
01:00:32alienbiker99set to the same palce
01:01:02soapgevaerts, where can I learn more about the "Charging from USB is not fully implemented on most players"
01:01:08DerPapstso did the new one overwrite the old one?
01:01:30 Nick Llorean is now known as OtherLlor (n=llorean@rockbox/administrator/Llorean)
01:01:49soapI'm mostly curious why charging (seems to) work on my 5th gen w/o the full stack enabled, curious how it is different with the full stack enabled.
01:02:01gevaertssoap: if I knew, the link would be there ;). I know next to nothing about charging control
01:02:09alienbiker99DerPapst what do you mean?
01:02:20gevaertsDoes it work reasonably fast on the 5th gen ?
01:02:23 Join tvelocity [0] (
01:02:44 Quit spiorf (Remote closed the connection)
01:02:56soapeh - it (seems to) work. Speed? I can't speak to as I don't have it plugged in while in Rockbox when charging time is an issue.
01:03:17soapdo you expect the charging behavior to be different than w/o enabling the full stack?
01:03:33soapthat's question #1. Question
01:03:33DerPapstalienbiker99: iirc runs "make install" in where it build the arm toolchainand i don't know if that overwrites the old one or not.
01:03:38gevaertsThe only difference is that when you are using mass storage, the cpu is boosted
01:04:01 Quit donutman25 ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox]")
01:04:08OtherLlorsoap: My Nano seems to have charged just fine with the two defines (having usb, and using high speed)
01:04:21gevaertsSo if you have an old bad battery, it could charge slowly without mass storage, and discharge slowly with
01:04:47soapIs there a reason to believe we (as Rockboxers) are bypassing some magic charging circuit and possibly causing harm to the battery?
01:05:01gevaertsI don't know
01:05:26OtherLlorsoap: I would assume it's more like the e200, where we're going through the circuit, but we're not telling it to make full use of the current we're making available to it.
01:05:56soapI was going to say, I don't do it often, but I've done it enough times I would have expected to see a dead battery if I was going to ever see one.
01:06:19 Quit ctaylorr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:06:41gevaertsThis is actually why I dislike charging over usb ;) People start asking me questions about charging just because I know about usb
01:07:10soapSounds like it is time for me to start building with the stack on.
01:07:23pixelmathat reminds me that the Rockbox info screen tells a wrong voltage when in USB charging mode on the c200s (as far as I know the same on the e200s), guess it only gets a wrong number somewhere, still makes me distrust it
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01:08:03 Join Llorean [0] (
01:08:09pixelmain SVN though, haven't tried with the USB stack enabled
01:08:57gevaertsThat specific "feature" won't change by enabling USB
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01:19:30*preglow wonders how hard it'll be to port usb to d2
01:22:01***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:27:01 Part toffe82
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01:28:37peturhmmm how many BUTTON_SCROLL_UP messages must one send to get a list scrolling one item?
01:28:59saratogasoap: charging over USB doesn't actually involve the USB on most targets
01:29:21saratogatheres generally just a voltage regulator hooked up to the USB +/- lines
01:29:46saratogathat will happily draw as much power as you tell it to, regardless of the status of the USB stack
01:30:12saratogatechnically you're not supposed to draw more then 100ma without telling the USB host that you're taking that power
01:30:19saratoga(err current)
01:30:35saratogain practice, I don't think it actually matters
01:31:09*gevaerts is a spec pedant and does think it matters ;)
01:31:18saratogaat least on the e200, the OF will draw power before its even enabled the USB hardware, and that seems to work on pretty much any hardware, although technically its not allowed by the spec
01:31:53saratogaso for now i don't believe we enable charging on any of the software USB devices because we do not have the USB in place
01:32:06saratogaalthough it works fine . . .
01:33:44 Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
01:34:26soapthat makes sense, thank you as well, saratoga.
01:36:28 Quit DerPapst (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:37:24saratogai favor enabled charging on the Sansa's since the OF ignores the USB spec anyway, i figure we're not losing anything
01:37:36saratogabut it sounds like we'll have USB shortly, so i guess it doesn't matter
01:38:06 Join DerPapst [0] (
01:38:54amiconnI don't think that we don't enable (full power) charging because we don't have usb in place, but rather we don't know what to enable yet
01:39:16amiconnAnother problem is the power management code structure
01:40:02 Join JdGordon|uni [0] (i=768aa356@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
01:40:19amiconnAfaik the only targets which charge properly (but not always with proper indication) are those with pure hw controlled charging, plus the the archos recorder
01:41:09amiconnX5 and M5 and all PP502x targets I know of only charge slowly in rockbox. M3 doesn't charge at all in rockbox atm
01:42:39soapThis is a bit off the Rockbox trail, but is there any reason to believe lithium batteries suffer from a slow charge? (I'm not aware of any)
01:43:08soapI guess the real question is - Are LiIon batteries charged fast because "they can" or because "they should"?
01:45:01Lloreansoap: I think it depends on the conditions. Could a slow charge, in theory, leave the battery hot for a longer time?
01:45:41amiconnI would think that slower charging actually extends battery life
01:45:58amiconnSLower charging == lower temperature
01:47:35 Quit gevaerts ("sleep time")
01:49:02amiconnBut slow charging is annoying...
01:53:58 Quit goffa (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:57:24*Llorean would like to see some numbers on temperatures reached, time spent at those temperatures, and approximate damage per minute in some form at given temperatures. :-P
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02:12:50ZincAlloysoap: my new theme should meet the requirements for your seal of approval
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02:23:09*XavierGr just booted Rockbox on his Gigabeast. Bows to jhMikeS and gevaerts with respect :)
02:23:12 Join Thundercloud [0] (
02:23:35 Join cool_walking_ [0] (
02:23:35XavierGrAlso USB transfers worked like a charm on my hub, though I guess that this problem persists with ipods?
02:25:42XavierGrAlso I was quite impressed the an H300 build took me 1 minute and 35 seconds to make, in Cygwin! :D Quad core must be really worth for Rockbox coding.
02:25:55XavierGrI wonder though why on vmware it was much slower
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02:31:35 Quit Chronon ("Work --> Home")
02:32:02amiconnXavierGr: A single VMware vm won't use all cores of course.
02:32:32XavierGramiconn: ah too bad, then I will have to stick entirely to cygwin from now on.
02:32:56amiconnIf you use vmware server, you can assign 1 or 2 virtual CPUs
02:33:16XavierGramiconn: so VMware won't use all cores even if I start a new image from scratch?
02:33:22XavierGrhmm I might look on it then
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02:35:36amiconnThe way how virtualization works, one virtual core can never use more than one physical core for real mode code (== application code). And vmware only supports virtual smp with up to 2 cores (and you need to configure that explicitily, and the guest os needs to support smp)
02:35:59 Join DerPapst [0] (
02:37:07XavierGramiconn: so in the end I cannot use all of the cores whatever I do or what I use (by virtualization of course)?
02:37:40amiconnYou can, but only if you run several VMs at once
02:37:58XavierGramiconn: well that won't help in our case
02:38:23amiconnIt would if you want to build for more than one target ;)
02:39:04XavierGramiconn: ah yes completely missed that scenario :)
02:39:14XavierGryou would want to vmware images though
02:39:22XavierGrtwice the pain to keep the updated and in sync
02:39:41 Join cendres [0] (
02:44:22XavierGramiconn: yep you are quite on spot on that, building on vmware never utilizes more than 50% of my cpu usage
02:44:33XavierGr(with 2 virtual cpus)
02:44:57*DerPapst jealous
02:45:43LloreanDistCC? :-P
02:46:33 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
02:47:19XavierGrhmm now I think that vmware + ccache + 2 virtual cpus is still faster than cygwin :\ let me test again
02:49:51XavierGrwow 28 seconds for full h300 build with ccache on vmware
02:50:00XavierGrhow can I delete the ccache again?
02:50:32XavierGryeah it seems low but that's what I get
02:50:38*DerPapst even more jealous
02:50:52DerPapstnot like 10 minutes!
02:51:18XavierGrI upgraded last week on a Pentium Quad Core Q9300 and it really makes a difference for rockbox usage
02:51:44XavierGrI will try with cleared ccache
02:54:44 Quit ashes (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:55:34XavierGrbah ccache -C corrupted the vmware filesystem
02:56:27*JdGordon|uni 's comp is refusing to find m68k-gcc :(
02:56:40*DerPapst puts quad core on whishlist
02:56:48DerPapst*wishlist even
02:57:36JdGordon|uni.bashrc wasnt run after logging in from ssh?
02:57:49 Quit OlivierBorowski_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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02:59:02JdGordon|uni28s with ccache... 90s without for h300 on my box.. seems i need to upgrade my quaddie :D
02:59:06 Quit soap (Remote closed the connection)
02:59:11XavierGrgah! I don't believe it my vmware image just died on my hands! :(
03:00:48XavierGrJdGordon|uni: well I didn't manage to test without ccache I will tell you my results if I manage to restore it
03:04:05alienbiker99man ive been having problems all day. what do i do when tar: this does not look like a tar archive
03:04:05XavierGrJdGordon|uni: also keep in mind that, these results were on a vmwre image with half the power of my cpu (since it used only 2 cores) and of course I hope I didn't do anything silly that shortened the building time. :)
03:04:45JdGordon|uniwhats the q9300 clocked at?
03:05:30XavierGrstock is 2.5 Ghz and I overclocked it at 3Ghz
03:05:58XavierGrbut it's rather cool even at 3Ghz only 45-50celsius
03:06:39XavierGr1 minute and 15 seconds without ccache
03:06:51XavierGrdamn it it is still faster than cygwin :\
03:07:57*DerPapst thinks this is something to be happy about
03:08:05XavierGryeah I didn't do anything stupid, now with ccache on the same built I got 32 seconds
03:08:34XavierGrDerPapst: well I wanted to give a rest to vmware and start using cygwin again because it is more comfortable for windows
03:09:00LloreanXavierGr: Is "1 minute 35 seconds" too long for you to wait?
03:09:03DerPapsti wanted to give colinux a go−−
03:09:04LloreanYou seemed happy about it before...
03:09:18XavierGrI guess the real solution is to convert to Linux, but I am too used to windows to do that...
03:09:33XavierGrLlorean: you are right I should be very happy with that
03:09:44JdGordon|uniDerPapst: apparently andLinux is the updated colinux or something
03:11:33XavierGrLlorean: in fact, I am happy, but you know, human vanity is bad....
03:12:36 Join soap [50] (n=soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
03:13:29soapwhat is the svn command to get a list of all files I have modified?
03:13:56DerPapstpreglow: got wildcard implemented but somehow this version of disktidy doesn't remove dirs ;-)
03:14:04DerPapstsvn diff
03:14:24DerPapstsvn diff > bla.huge.diff preferably
03:14:56Lloreansvn st
03:15:00LloreanJust for the list of files
03:15:13soapthat's it.
03:15:15*DerPapst misread
03:15:22soapahh "status"
03:16:06*Llorean always wonders why "status" doesn't include what revision you're at.
03:19:09DerPapstsounds like a feature request *cough* :-P
03:20:08soapdo you use the USB stack, Llorean? I guess a better question is "do you use a PP device daily?"
03:20:13LloreanY'know, I've considered that, and decided it seems like such an obvious concept that either there's already one, or I'll search, not find one, make it, THEN be told there's already one that I daftly missed.
03:20:24Lloreansoap: Yes, no.
03:20:33LloreanI've made a little use of it on my Nano, but I don't use it daily.
03:20:34JdGordon|unigrrr... stupid e200 didnt charge last night while it was plugged in :(
03:20:52LloreanJdGordon|uni: Sounds like a good reason for you to look over and play with the charging patch.
03:21:24*JdGordon|uni was under the impression charging did work, even if it was slowly :p
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03:22:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:22:12LloreanThe charge control circuit's default current is apparently set way too low.
03:22:42XavierGrLlorean: which target do you use mostly, just curious
03:23:38LloreanXavierGr: Gigabeat F at the moment. It really depends on what I'm spending more time doing in my spare time though. Walking/jogging/exercising means I use my Nano a lot more. I was using my c200 but its headphone jack came loose again and I've yet to fix it.
03:23:53*Llorean does like the radio for when he wants to hear something new.
03:25:13LloreanI wasn't using the USB stack with the Sansa though, because last I heard the disk corruption issue on them had not yet been resolved.
03:25:47XavierGrthe only thing that I resent on the F is its boot time, other than that it is a great target if you are not in recording or radio
03:26:04 Join Leperkawn_ [0] (
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03:26:54LloreanAgreed the boot time is slightly annoying, but it's not like I shutdown and reboot constantly.
03:29:01 Part pixelma
03:29:27kkurbjunXavierGr: soon the boot time won't be much :P
03:29:51*JdGordon|uni whispers mr500 to kkurbjun :p
03:29:53 Quit Leperkawn (Nick collision from services.)
03:29:59kkurbjunIt's fast for me and I can boot with main build in flash
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03:30:05kkurbjun:), I need to work on that too
03:30:15kkurbjunI want to get flash booting working for the mr500 next
03:30:28kkurbjunhopefully it will be faster after this learning experience
03:34:05 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
03:36:30saratogaamiconn: we can enable charging on the sansas
03:36:52saratogawe have the datasheet, and we have a register dump from the OF, so we know exactly how it works
03:37:07*Llorean thinks this should be done, then. :-P
03:37:41saratogasoap: regarding lipoly life, they last much longer if you slow charge them, and also if you don't fully charge them
03:38:02saratogaits something like 100 cycles at current x, 500 cycles at current y, etc
03:38:41LloreanSo should we have an option in Rockbox as to whether it charges quickly or slowly on targets where this is possible?
03:38:58saratogaLlorean: we could, but i was just going to set it low by default
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03:39:06saratogait actually doesn't make a huge difference in charge time
03:39:13Lloreansaratoga: Sometimes you need your player charged as much as possible 15 minutes from now, though.
03:39:31 Quit cendres (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:39:44LloreanThough I suppose it really does just kinda depend on how big a difference it makes.
03:39:54soapI swear they don't make them like they used to. I have a LiIon battery in my P-133 laptop which still holds a decent charge. 13 years old.
03:39:57saratogaif you don't need a full charge, it doesn't make a huge difference, lipoly batteries charge sort of logirthmically, so its always very fast for the first 60% (or so) and very slow for the remainder
03:40:21saratogasoap: thats probably not a lipoly battery, i don't think they made them back then
03:40:36saratogaprobably a metal hydride or whatever they were called
03:40:37soapion, not poly (FWIW)
03:40:40soapno, lithium
03:41:45saratogaanyway, the OF charges way faster then I would feel comfortable with otherwise, so i think rebooting into it is a good option if you must charge as much as possible in 30 minutes or whatever
03:43:02soap(just ran down and checked)
03:45:01Lloreansaratoga: Maybe to drive up those replaceable battery sales. ;)
03:45:03XavierGrkkurbjun: cheers, I am looking forward to see that in the future! :)
03:45:13LloreanBut, as long as we charge slower than the OF, people are going to file bug reports on it from time to time.
03:45:23LloreanSo an option to charge as fast as the OF (disabled by default) might be a good idea.
03:49:14*JdGordon|uni agrees
03:50:17LloreanMaybe name the two options "Optimal" and "Abusive" (or in seriousness, "Quick Charge") so people recognize that the slower one is meant to be "better" in some way
03:50:59JdGordon|unistandard and abusive...
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03:54:56soapshouldn't the way most (all?) original firmwares do it (fast) be called "standard" and the proposed slow way be called "gentle"?
03:56:07soapin that the "point of reference" for most people is going to be the original firmware - ie the word "standard" will be judged against such a point of reference.
03:56:18*Llorean intentionally avoided "standard" for that reason.
03:56:47LloreanI'm also not sure "Quick Charge" should mirror the OF in every case, sometimes for all we know they could be closer to our choice for Gentle.
03:57:18LloreanI'd rather we just pick a Fast and Slow value of our own, but never make the Faster one slower than the OF (or the slow one faster than the OF if there's an incredibly slow OF out there)
04:07:32saratogahas there been any indication that the USB stack might be good to go soon for the PP targets?
04:07:32 Join Gartral [0] (
04:07:48saratogait sounds like a lot of progress is being made, but i'm not clear on how much work remains
04:08:17OtherLlorI think the final test is amiconn's hub
04:08:26OtherLlorI haven't heard whether the latest discoveries work there or not
04:09:34Gartrali havent had any luck... but anyway... why are downloads for m1.0.5 of RBUtil down?
04:09:38*Llorean does not understand the install instructions for the d2 port.
04:09:42saratogawasn't his hub issue specific to the Mini 2G though?
04:10:09LloreanGartral: I can download it...
04:10:17Lloreansaratoga: Dunno.
04:10:55Gartralonly the mac one seems too work... and i dont have a mac comp
04:11:02LloreanI just downloaded the windows one.
04:11:22*Llorean downloads the linux one too.
04:11:28Gartrali click the windows link and it gives me a 404
04:11:44LloreanIt may mean that you're getting redirected to a download server it hasn't propagated to.
04:12:20Gartral <- this is the link i get from clicking the download
04:12:42Lloreanyes, and that link downloads a file for me.
04:13:04Gartralbut it says 404 for me
04:13:25LloreanAnd I told you why. it may be trying to download from a server that doesn't yet have the file
04:15:18 Quit JdGordon|uni (" ajax IRC Client")
04:16:32Gartralgeolocation shows the download server is the same as the site's host is. It redirects you to one of several donated servers for the actual download.
04:17:59Gartralwich my geoloc sould follow... it gives the end server, not entry server
04:18:12LloreanDo you honestly think I'm lying to you when i say "It downloads fine for me"?
04:18:27DerPapstpreglow: FS #8637 now uses explicit wildcards. Tested and working fine :-)
04:18:41Gartralno... i belive you.... im just wondering why its not for me...
04:19:04LloreanMaybe for the very reason I claimed. "Should" and "Does" follow are two different things.
04:19:22*DerPapst suggests to check out FS #8637 to anyone :-)
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04:20:10soaphmm, with the Rockbox USB stack (High-speed) the drive icon isn't showing, but the disk continues to spin.
04:21:09saratogahmm the Zen port is looking good, but the players have become surprisingly expensive
04:22:07Lloreansaratoga: Gigabeast.... Gigabeast...
04:22:19DerPapstas usual when rockbox support is near :-.P
04:23:22saratogaLlorean: yeah i ordered one, but the guy shipped it in a paper envelope and the screen is destroyed
04:23:35saratogaand i'm still fighting with paypal for a refund
04:23:47saratogaso i'm a little sour on that for now
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04:24:13saratogabesides teh TMS320 is such an interesting chip, what with its free(!) DSP compiler
04:24:13Gartralpaypricks? yes... there EVIL EVAL!
04:24:26LloreanGartral: Off topic for this channel
04:24:56saratogathe gigabeast is probably faster then the DSP on the TI chip though definately less fun
04:26:30Gartralanyway... back too the DL links not working... what can i do about this/
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04:27:32saratogagoogle says this:;O=A
04:27:39saratogano idea who thats from though
04:27:56LloreanGartral: Wait 30 minutes and try again?
04:28:54saratogaor hell just use the manual install its only marginally more difficult on most targets
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04:37:11Gartrali dont care about that... i like bug hunting
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04:45:38zeroth__Hello guys. I was wondering if someone could give me write access to ? I actually have the unit myself, and am quite capable of doing the work needed(hopefully) to get rockbox working.
04:45:51zeroth__The TWiki name is TylerLaing
04:46:37 Part Gartral
04:57:12kkurbjunzeroth__: I don't think anyone is around that can help you with that at the moment - 3 or 4 hours earlier and someone will usually be around that has those privileges
04:57:27zeroth__ah, well, gee, I was at work. Thanks kkurbjun
04:57:45kkurbjunor sometime later, I'm not sure what the exact time is in Europe right now
04:57:46scorchekkurbjun: you cant?
04:58:04scorcheeh...i can...just a sec
04:58:04kkurbjunscorche, not that I know of
04:58:15scorchekkurbjun: you dont have write access?
04:58:29kkurbjunto the wiki?
04:58:37kkurbjunso I can create accounts?
04:58:39scorcheyes...anyone with write access can give it to another
04:58:50kkurbjuncool, that's good to know :-D
04:58:51scorchethey create juts give them write access
04:59:01zeroth__lol, cool
04:59:49scorchekkurbjun: look at the page i just edited
05:00:12kkurbjunoh, gotcha
05:00:32zeroth__so, do I have write access now?
05:00:39kkurbjunI'll keep that in mind in the future
05:00:48scorchetry it
05:01:09zeroth__okay, cool
05:01:30zeroth__Yay, thanks guys. :)
05:02:00*Llorean notices RButil's voice files seem to cut off the end of strings still.
05:03:05zeroth__Anyone here familiar with the Zen Vision:M port project?
05:03:46kkurbjunI know a bit about the CPU/SOC through the mrobe 500
05:04:30zeroth__Hmm, I was hoping for someone familiar with how Creative encrypts their firmware.
05:05:07kkurbjunnope, I can't help there
05:05:14zeroth__Oh well. Thanks anyways.
05:05:19kkurbjunlet me see who's the person doing the port
05:06:09kkurbjunyep, just found that :)
05:07:15zeroth__pretty impressive work considering how much Creative obscured the info needed.
05:07:24zeroth__Not as hard as the Zune though.
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05:10:32kkurbjunyep, much like the rest of the ports :P
05:11:19kkurbjunit would be nice if we got full docs to even one player, but so far the best is the sansa to my knowledge and that wasn't much
05:11:32kkurbjunbetter than nothing though for sure
05:11:51LloreanWe have some decent documentation on several upcoming players actually
05:12:13kkurbjunLlorean: as in the gigabeat S?
05:12:18kkurbjunor something else?
05:12:21LloreanAnd I think D2 and Meizu as well
05:12:37kkurbjunyeah, I am most interested in full schematics
05:12:48kkurbjunI would love to have some for the gigabeat F
05:12:50LloreanWell I think in the cases of all of those, it's more than we had for the e200
05:12:57kkurbjunbut datasheets are nice too
05:13:20kkurbjunall we got was hw :)
05:14:57zeroth__whats interesting is that, for my current player, the Creative ZEN, the SOC inside is actually fully documented... the company, Sigmatel has a port to linux for it.
05:15:26kkurbjunthat's really nice
05:15:39kkurbjunand they released all the datasheets for free online?
05:16:11zeroth__so, yeah, kind of have an advantage
05:16:45kkurbjun:), definately
05:17:19zeroth__Well, I think they've released the datasheets.
05:17:25zeroth__at the very least, there is source code.
05:21:07zeroth__anyway, I'm off. Talk to you guys later.
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05:39:36tylerofmainewhat's the register command?
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05:50:38fujinso uh, I installed the ipod port on a 4th gen grayscale earlier, it worked fine
05:50:41fujincopied some tracks over
05:51:01fujingave it back to the dude who owns it, he charged it up then unplugged it and now it won't even load the bootloader, has the apple folder with an exclamation mark error
05:51:11fujinand whenever I try and use disk mode both mine and his computers lock up
05:51:13fujinAny ideas? :>
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06:02:48atrusi've been googling a bit, and getting what looks like conflicting reports. I've got a sansa e280, w/latest rockbox. I'd like to put an 8gb sdhc card in it. will rockbox read it successfully?
06:04:34atruscool. i'll have to go shopping then :)
06:04:59 Part fujin
06:11:33soapThe conflicting reports might be due to the fact that the Sansa original firmware will not read the 8GB SDHC card, but Rockbox will. You will therefore be advised to use a USB card reader (and writer) to write to the card efficiently.
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06:20:25scorchesaratoga: see ?
06:20:42BigMacHey, I know this isn't strictly the place, but google returned nothing. Anyone know of a way to encode multiple videos with WinFF without manually adding each individual video?
06:21:04scorcheBigMac: do they not have a channel of their own?
06:21:33scorcheooo...there is this too:
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06:22:13BigMacSorry for the dc, can you please send me that link again scorche?
06:22:22LloreanBigMac: The link wasn't to you
06:22:31BigMacOh, sorry
06:23:24BigMacscorche: No, they don't have a channel on freenode. I thought somebody might know here, if it is possible at least.
06:23:37LloreanBigMac: It's really not the place to ask.
06:24:01scorcheBigMac: errrr....
06:24:37scorcheBigMac: you have to be kidding...84 people in #ffmpeg
06:25:05Lloreanscorche: He's asking about Winff though, the front end tool. I wouldn't ask about it in #ffmpeg either.
06:25:15BigMacscorche: Yes, but I thought WinFF was the frontend for ffmpeg, so they really wouldn't know
06:25:23LloreanBigMac: Yes, and WE wouldn't either.
06:25:35scorcheLlorean: is better than here
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06:26:11BigMacLlorean: I thought it would be worth asking, somebody may have known considering it is the recommended tool on the wiki.
06:26:21LloreanBigMac: A wiki page generated by random users.
06:26:25scorchewe do have a channel for offtopic stuff...
06:26:33LloreanBigMac: Meanwhile, this channel is *strictly* for Rockbox talk, as per the guidelines in the topic.
06:27:12BigMacscorche: This is true, with myself and Chanserv
06:27:41LloreanBigMac: You've joined the wrong channel. But even if it *was* the right one, and really was empty, that still wouldn't make it okay to ask here.
06:27:46BigMacscorche:Isn't the offtopic channel still #rockbox-social?
06:27:59scorcheit never was...
06:27:59*Llorean thinks BigMac still hasn't read this channel's topic...
06:28:46BigMacscorche: It was last time I knew of it, but I guess I am wrong it wasnt
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06:29:14scorche*still* didnt read the topic...
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09:07:38JdGordon|zzzLlorean: had any more thoughts on the touchpad keymaps?
09:08:04 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (i=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
09:08:14LloreanJdGordon|zzz: Not yet. I've got a D2 and Rockbox on it now, but haven't started playing any yet.
09:09:04LloreanI did think of something I wanted to mention to you, but oddly enough, I've completely forgotten now that you're here
09:09:06LloreanOh, right
09:09:29LloreanFor defining buttons in the WPS screen, might it make sense to just give a viewport an action?
09:09:53LloreanSince they can't overlap, any touch on that viewport would do that action. So if you want an image to be the RW button, you put it in its own viewport and make it that action
09:10:56JdGordonfor the wps i was planning on adding a region tag which would let you specify a rectangle and an action for it.. a bit more flexible than viewports because we can store much more of then without wasting RAM, and it means we dont get wps' needing 30 viewports to just draw the play/next/prev icons
09:12:41LloreanPlay, Next, and Prev would only be three viewports. :-P
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09:14:00amiconnMaybe that's a new kind of button bar?
09:18:21*amiconn found a new interesting detail regarding the Mini and the problematic hub
09:18:32JdGordonBB will probably be adapted for touchpad, but not in the wps... its too limiting imo
09:18:49*LinusN eagerly awaits amiconn's explanation
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09:18:54pondlifeamiconn: ?
09:21:15amiconnWell, it's a 4-port hub. The amount of errors seems to depend on which port I use
09:21:16LloreanJdGordon: Regions might work. I just thought viewports might make the .wps file less complicated, if it's just one extra parameter on the end of the viewport declaration to define its action
09:22:05amiconnUnfortunately the ports aren't numbered, but from the printed text I presume leftmost port is 1
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09:22:51amiconnPort 1 works best (there are still many disk events in the event log, but the drive letter appears and browsing works with just occasional hangs)
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09:23:25amiconnPort 4 (which I happen to use for my tests normally) works worst. Often the device isn't even detected, or it is, but explorer hangs
09:23:54amiconnOF and hw usb targets don't care about the port used
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09:35:20JdGordonis it a powered hub?
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10:06:53austriancoderHi all... please have a look at and tell me if you can see any problems with it
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10:13:13preglowaustriancoder: i'll try to have a look later
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10:54:15McDeezyanyone here?
10:55:18B4gderyes many
10:55:38McDeezyhey =]
10:55:42McDeezyJust installed RockBox
10:55:45McDeezythis is so awesome
10:56:11B4gderyah, it just... rocks!
10:57:13McDeezywhats the best font to use
10:57:39B4gderthe best is the one you like the most
10:58:14GodEaterideally one which is native to a language you can read too
10:59:20McDeezynone of them are big
10:59:24McDeezythey are soo small
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11:00:28LloreanMcDeezy: Tried Unifont or Nimbus-19?
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11:01:05pixelmathere are quite a few, keep trying. Usually if there is a number at the end of the font name it means the height (in pixels) - e.g. nimbus-19 is quite big
11:01:44McDeezyi like the nimbus 19
11:03:14pixelmawhich font you chose has an influence on the appearance of your WPS (while playing screen) and could "break" it. What player do you have?
11:04:16McDeezyyea it doesnt scale the text for the now playing screen
11:04:19McDeezyi was just gonna say that
11:04:58pixelmaIpod Video (5th generation) I guess?
11:06:25pixelmayou could try to change your theme, some of them which come with Rockbox use Nimbus-19, e.g iCatcher and Rockboxed if I remember correctly
11:07:38McDeezywhat is the speed of the CPU in ipods
11:10:03 Quit theli_ua (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:10:46LloreanDual core 80mhz, but for most purpose we only really use one.
11:12:39McDeezylmfao dual core 80
11:12:46McDeezywhy dual core
11:12:52LloreanWhy would we knwo?
11:13:04McDeezyjust seems like a waste
11:13:44B4gderyeah single-core ought to be enough for everyone!
11:14:03McDeezysingle core 80mhz seems fine for an ipod
11:14:13B4gderbased on what facts?
11:14:13McDeezydualcore 80mhz for a music player
11:14:19McDeezyjust seems overdoing it
11:14:35B4gderagain, what are you basing this on?
11:15:12B4gderisn't it perhasp a good way to be energy efficient and yet have lots of power when needed?
11:16:00McDeezyyou could be energy effiecnt making a single core at 100mhz
11:16:41B4gderI'm just not seeing why dual-core would be so strange
11:16:42LloreanMcDeezy: Many modern MP3 players seem to take the dual core approach
11:16:55LloreanThough the more modern method is using a DSP as the coprocessor in a more specialized role
11:16:58B4gderlots of SoCs in general have dual (or more) cores these days
11:17:26LloreanEven with an awful lot of optimization, we find 80mhz somewhat constrictive, but nobody has put the time into splitting tasks between the cores yet. It would at least insure that load from the UI doesn't interfere with playback, and vice versa.
11:17:36LloreanIn theory, and if well split, at least.
11:17:58McDeezyHow does PHASE and Sonic run so well
11:18:02McDeezyon 80mhz
11:18:17*Llorean doesn't even know what those are.
11:18:18B4gderwhat's that?
11:18:25McDeezythe ipod games
11:18:28LloreanFirst off, it's dual core.
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11:18:37B4gderwhat ipod games?
11:18:43LloreanB4gder: OF games, I assume
11:18:46McDeezyPhase and sonic the hedgeohog
11:18:52B4gderbut are they for the oldish ipods?
11:19:02McDeezyjust video
11:19:26LloreanB4gder: Nano 3, Video, and Classic for Phase at least
11:19:34LloreanWhich means they probably make use of the Broadcom for graphics acceleration
11:19:47LloreanMcDeezy: The iPod classic and newest Nano have a much faster chip in them.
11:19:48B4gderyes, and nano3 and classic have more power
11:20:00McDeezythen the video?
11:20:03LloreanThe iPod Video has a *third* processor, the Broadcom chip which is more or less an unknown.
11:21:48McDeezydo homebrew devs have access to it?
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11:22:32B4gderwe have no "access" to any parts really
11:22:50B4gderbut people have figured out the main CPU parts
11:22:56LloreanOr possibly we have 'access' to everything, since we're the firmware, we've just taken it for ourselves, and don't know how to talk with it.
11:23:08*Llorean thinks it might depend on the definition of "access" in this case.
11:23:22McDeezywouldnt it be an API call
11:23:32LloreanWhat API?
11:24:03McDeezyIs there a specific code for iPODs?
11:24:08McDeezywhat is the dev code?
11:24:10B4gderin Apple's OS there's probably an API yes
11:24:13LloreanRockbox is a replacement firmware.
11:24:20LloreanThe only APIs are those we implement for ourselves.
11:24:21B4gderMcDeezy: we write Rockbox
11:24:42McDeezyOh shit yous are the devs?
11:24:46LloreanIt's not something that runs on top of Apple's software. We aren't just "homebrew" running like the Apple games.
11:25:17B4gderRockbox is from scratch, on the metal, without anything Apple'ish
11:25:57McDeezyI see so your still learning how to utilize things?
11:26:11B4gderand we'll never stop since we have no docs
11:26:28McDeezyThey dont release docs on the hardware?
11:26:52McDeezyIs it possible to reverse the apple firmware
11:26:55McDeezyand learn from that
11:27:14McDeezyis that what you guys have been doing/
11:28:37McDeezyso these devs that program OF games for Ipods
11:28:43McDeezyhow do they get there documentation
11:29:08B4gderwho knows
11:29:22LloreanSign license agreement with non-disclosure clause, and give Apple money, etc, probably.
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11:29:50LloreanIt doesn't really matter here though.
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11:31:10LloreanBecause 1) It's probably much higher level, as you mentioned API calls, and things we cannot use. 2) If we had it, it would almost certainly have legal restrictions on it preventing us from using it even if it were helpful.
11:31:50McDeezywell you could create your own API calls couldnt you just learning from it
11:31:58B4gderwe have our own api
11:32:46LloreanIf you see a gear shift, you can figure out how to shift it, but it probably doesn't give you many clues to how a transmission works.
11:33:10LloreanThey'd be plenty useful if we were interested in writing apps to run in the Apple software, but that's not what this project is.
11:34:04McDeezyIm just saying the TI-83plus Calc had a GB emulator that ran at fullspeed and that CPU was 8mhz
11:34:35B4gderand what's that supposed to mean to us?
11:34:39McDeezyThe ipod has plenty of power to do alot of things
11:34:50B4gderso go make them reality, stop explaining it to us
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11:35:26McDeezydid you guys write doom?
11:35:34McDeezyor port it
11:35:35B4gderno, it was "just" ported
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11:37:31McDeezyyour EQ works so much better than apples
11:37:37McDeezythe bass boost in apples blows so bad
11:37:43McDeezyit distorted the music
11:42:55preglowif you think our eq can't do that, you haven't tried it enough :>
11:43:49preglowmaking a full quality gb emulator run in on an 8mhz 68k is flat out impossible
11:44:27McDeezyi swear to god i saw it with my own eyes
11:44:27Lloreanpreglow: TI-83 is an 8mhz z80, I think.
11:44:38preglowif it's a z80, it's another matter
11:44:38McDeezyit is z80
11:44:49preglowi thought all ti calcs were 68k
11:44:54LloreanJust the later ones
11:44:59*GodEater wonders why this makes a difference
11:45:14LloreanGodEater: Gameboy Classic is the same instruction set, or compatible one, I think
11:45:20GodEaterah ha
11:45:22preglowwell, then it can run the gameboy code natively with some hacks
11:45:27preglowand it pretty much has to
11:45:44LloreanIt's basically just a faster gameboy, and since you've got no sound, very little in the way of emulation
11:46:00LloreanWell, 'very little' relative to what we have to do.
11:46:15McDeezythe 83+ could play .wav
11:46:25McDeezyvery small wavs but it did it
11:48:52McDeezywhat does the record featrue do
11:49:50LloreanMcDeezy: Records from the line in on the dock connector.
11:53:50McDeezyDamn thats sick
11:54:00McDeezyis the HDD in the ipod a normal HDD?
11:54:28LloreanWe'd call it normal, sure.
11:54:54McDeezymy friend said it doesnt support alot of writes
11:55:10*amiconn would say the one in the G5.5/80 isn't entirely normal
11:55:40McDeezyis it ok to use it as a disk
11:57:01LloreanPeople who depend on iPods as a backup solution are often disappointed. They support plenty of writes, but generally suffer a lot more abuse (from being used actively) than say a normal USB storage solution, which is generally only ever moved while not in use.
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11:58:09McDeezyi always wondered why they would use an HDD in a portable device because doesnt all the moving cause damage
11:59:26LloreanAgain, really not our concern. We didn't design the hardware, and the issue can be debated either way.
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12:02:01McDeezydoes it really screw the HDD up though
12:04:09LloreanNot normally unless you're particularly abusive, but it does increase the wear relative to just sitting it flat on a table.
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12:17:43*GodEater 's 80GB ipod has now been doing service for 18 months or so with no problems on the disk. Haven't had to run chkdsk so much as once.
12:18:14GodEaterthe iriver H140 has been in service for considerably longer, also without problems.
12:19:06soapyou have to realize how low-mass a 1.8" HDD's heads are. You would really need to work at causing them to crash into the platters. They just don't have much momentum.
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12:24:02McDeezywhats the speed of theHDD
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12:35:19*preglow plays with his d2
12:36:07*Llorean starts putting together a list of unreasonable expectations for preglow to accomplish
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12:37:59preglowi think i like this thing
12:38:16preglowLlorean: will probably be a couple of days until i have time to do some hacking, but we'll see :)
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12:45:26DerPapstpreglow: i've fixed all the issues left with configureable disktidy.
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12:48:48preglowDerPapst: nice
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12:49:02preglowDerPapst: still in windows, though, so can't commit
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12:50:13*preglow doesn't like the idea of opening this small thing :/
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12:51:55LloreanIt's pretty small for what it's got in it 'n all
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12:53:00DerPapstpreglow: ok, take your time :-)
12:53:47B4gderI wonder if qemu is a better foundation for the "ARM Emulator" project than skyeye
12:54:31B4gderit seems to feature more devices and more emulated cpus etc
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12:56:15B4gderand it seems like its a very busy project
12:58:46*amiconn wonders what austriancoder is doing :\
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13:02:32kugelWhy is devcon on that weeken =(
13:02:49B4gderwe had to pick a date
13:02:59kugeli know
13:03:22kugelI just can't take part then
13:03:24preglowamiconn: he's here, ask him
13:03:50B4gderkugel: that's sad, but no matter what date we pick some people will be unable to make it!
13:05:05preglowi like the fact that jetaudio plays .mod ...
13:05:29*preglow thought he saw ffmpeg*.dll flash by during install...
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13:08:23*preglow bloody _hates_ intrusive software
13:08:31*Llorean never installed any software...
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13:09:22GodEaterLlorean: what, ever?
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13:09:31LloreanGodEater: In regard to the Cowon D2.
13:10:13*B4gder didn't understand that reference either
13:10:30B4gderthinking about it, I haven't even looked at the CDs for my latest targets
13:11:17*Llorean never even handled the CD for his D2.
13:11:25preglowyou're not missing much, this'll be uninstalled
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13:11:37Lloreanpreglow: Why'd you install it? Curiosity?
13:11:44B4gderbut i like that the meizu comes with one of them small CDs
13:11:56B4gderfollows the "mini player" concept
13:12:05JdGordonthey should have used a full size cd... it would have made it look smaller
13:12:07preglowLlorean: the software might have been good
13:12:12Lloreanpreglow: Ah.
13:12:12preglownow i know it's just annoying
13:12:26B4gderJdGordon: I think it's a matter of fitting in the box nicely too
13:12:29LloreanB4gder: I have a half dozen or so -RW mini-DVDs. I quite like the size for some reason.
13:12:32B4gderit comes in a rather small box
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13:15:02GodEaterI believe this is old news for us - but thought I'd post it anyway in case someone wants to wade in to the ars discussion with our "yeah but," argument on the hardware
13:16:16preglowfree audible book, eh
13:17:59B4gderbut that's still with that limited assembler for the DSP core I think
13:18:21GodEaterso still not "open" the
13:18:26B4gderlimited == not open and free
13:18:31preglowman, i love the demo track
13:18:38preglowit's not catch the digital flow, but it's cheesy enough
13:20:03B4gderWhen done, it will be a complete open platform that will
13:20:03B4gderallow developers of all levels to contribute and port applications.
13:20:28B4gder(quote from the neuros list)
13:20:51amiconnaustriancoder_: VOLUME_MIN and VOLUME_MAX for MAS3587F+MAS3539F are way off in your commit, and the default is rather weird too
13:22:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:25:55B4gderamiconn: i think he only moved them from sound.c so they were probably wrong already then
13:29:24preglow"BBE is the sound effect that provides clear music" <- well, ok then
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13:31:29LinusNi must say that the #ifdef order in the VOLUME_MAX commit is a little backwards
13:32:25B4gderah yes, its backwards
13:32:29LloreanIt's not, actually
13:32:42LloreanThere's a ! in the new file where there wasn't in the old
13:33:23LloreanSo functionally it's the same, but reading it is awful weird.
13:33:23LinusNit's backwards because it tests for "not equal" and the "else" instead of the opposite
13:33:44B4gdervery confusing to read, yes
13:34:05LinusNbut i didn't say that it was wrong
13:34:57LinusNi understand why he did it that way, because otherwise the #else would end up much farther away from the #if
13:35:29LloreanWould it be okay to just change the #else to another #if, take out the /* and */, and put a #endif before it?
13:36:40LloreanI mean, not from a functional standpoint, but "are there style guidelines regarding that sort of thing"?
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13:40:03preglowi even kinda like the retail os on this thing
13:40:19B4gderthe guidelines would be "write code so that it is as easily read as possible"
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13:50:57B4gderok, this time I'll actually ask Joe himself before I post my blog entry ;-)
13:51:12B4gderon neuros and TI's open platform
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13:57:00preglowB4gder: what, there's some reason he would mind?
13:57:39B4gderjust that I want to know if they rely on that DSP assembler they've mentioned before
13:58:08preglowthe ti "free" kit?
13:58:21preglownasty business, that
13:58:23B4gderbasically enforcing all users of it to be GPL
13:58:37preglowdo you know if they actually support it very well?
13:58:39B4gderor at least copyleft-style licensed
13:58:39preglowas in maintain it
13:58:44B4gderno idea
13:59:02pondlifeI assume it ties the code to TI hardware too?
13:59:27pondlifeOr could the source be target-independent?
13:59:28B4gderwell, it generates code for TI DSPs, what else would you use it for?
13:59:45pondlifeAh, ok. Ignore me, I misunderstood
14:00:01*pondlife goes back to sleep
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14:02:58preglowthe box assures me the d2 is PodcastReady !
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14:25:14webguest17Hi, I'd like to upload an FM preset list to Rockbox; i've just registered as JohnLeBlanc. Could someone give me write privileges please?
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14:28:11linuxstbpreglow: Disassembled your D2 yet? ;)
14:30:05preglowlinuxstb: heh, nah
14:30:17preglowi'll wait with that until i actually get to working on the dab
14:30:26preglowin case i manage to break it
14:31:09austriancoder_amiconn: I have not changed the values of VOLUME_MIN/MAX I have only done copy&past. For the default values... I dont know how to handle them. We can fail with an error that they are not defined..
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14:38:46JdGordon:) looks like shotofadds got the touchpad working correctly on the d2?
14:39:02preglowhow do you know?
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15:09:41baNTiKhi hi hi all
15:12:27preglowgood day
15:13:28baNTiKhaw are you?
15:13:55LambdaCalculus37preglow: Can you take a look at FS #8924? It's an extra blurb for the manual documenting disktidy's new functionality.
15:15:10preglowLambdaCalculus37: put them entries in the order they're presented in the plugin menu, otherwise it looks fine
15:15:52LambdaCalculus37preglow: Okay, will fix.
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15:16:07LambdaCalculus37I'll post a revised patch once I do.
15:16:19preglowi'd also like the entry extended on actually what junk files are
15:16:30preglowsome people might not consider thumbnail caches junk, but disktidy does
15:16:40preglowif you could add that, it would be most excellent :)
15:16:59LambdaCalculus37Sure. :)
15:17:11LambdaCalculus37I'll help clarify the entry a little bit more.
15:17:46baNTiK ?
15:18:11LambdaCalculus37baNTiK: Is there something we can help you with?
15:18:33baNTiKI am from Russia!
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15:19:02preglowcan't help you with that
15:19:27LambdaCalculus37baNTiK: This is not a social channel. This is a discussion for Rockbox development and related topics.
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15:19:53preglowanyone know what the different 0/1/2 folders of the d2 firmware update contains?
15:20:03JdGordonhow many different file name/types does disktidy look for?
15:20:05preglowi expect perhaps one to be the bootloder, the next the firmware, and so on, but i don't know
15:20:27JdGordonis there any reason we cant change it to read in a descriptions text file and let the user manually check which files they want removed?
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15:20:33JdGordoninstead of grouping thm into OS?
15:21:30preglowJdGordon: there's patch on adding cfg file support right now, and that can be extended to what you propose, i guess
15:21:35preglowJdGordon: and it doesn't sound like a bad idea at that
15:21:46LambdaCalculus37preglow: I actually think the idea is much better.
15:22:09JdGordonpatch number?
15:22:14LambdaCalculus37Let me check.
15:22:23***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:22:37LambdaCalculus37Thanks, preglow. :)
15:23:02preglowit would still make sense to categorize by os, if you ask me, most people use just one os
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15:24:04LambdaCalculus37preglow: That's true, but there are those of us with multiple machines and OSes.
15:24:30preglowtrue, i'm one of them
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15:24:37preglowbut i think we're in the minority :)
15:24:45preglowi'll just use the "all" option anyway
15:24:49preglowwhich should still be available
15:25:01LambdaCalculus37I still have an iMac running MacOS 9.2.2, and use my Archos JBRv1 on that machine from time to time.
15:25:18LambdaCalculus37So I'll be adding FINDER.DAT files from MacOS 9 into the plugin.
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15:27:49linuxstbpreglow: I know "1" is the main firmware. I think "0" is some kind of "pre-installation" firmware - the upgrade process requires you to install 0, then 1. I think 0 does a low-level format/rescue of the device.
15:28:16*LambdaCalculus37 checks his devices to see how the disktidy menu is laid out
15:29:11JdGordonLambdaCalculus37: I'm tihnking a multi select list with "all", "none" and "GO" at the top followed by the available files
15:29:31preglowlinuxstb: how nice
15:29:37austriancoder_preglow: have you found time to look at my patch?
15:29:52JdGordonhmm.. actually no... just replace the current "files to clean" item with the multi select list
15:30:24JdGordonmaybe with an option for presets for the different OS'?
15:30:54LambdaCalculus37Something that's simple enough without making disktidy too complicated.
15:31:33preglowaustriancoder_: just moving hw dependent stuff from sound.c to drivers?
15:32:15*LambdaCalculus37 thinks that FS #8637 may not be that bad of an idea...
15:32:48austriancoder_preglow: more or less... yep...
15:33:01LambdaCalculus37Only thing is getting people to understand how to config disktidy to their liking.
15:33:50preglowaustriancoder_: well, it looks good to me, and i can't see any point in not moving stuff to drivers
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15:35:14austriancoder_preglow: the big goal is to clean up the ifdef hell in sound.c and move target/codec specific stuff into drivers folder or in to target tree... so its simply a cleaning up task
15:35:43preglowaustriancoder_: which i think is a good idea
15:36:32preglowbut then again, i know little of mas hardware, so wouldn't know if there's any better way of doing any of this
15:37:44preglowbah, i should look into getting one of these newfangled vmware images
15:38:03austriancoder_i dont see any other ways of cleaing up sound.c
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15:40:10austriancoder_i think i will commit it and see what reactions are coming back :)
15:40:21preglowis shotofadds reading my questions or what? the wiki was just updated :P
15:40:26preglowaustriancoder_: sounds good
15:40:41preglowaustriancoder_: just make sure the build table has no new red/yellow before you vanish
15:43:36LambdaCalculus37preglow: shotofadds sees all. :)
15:43:52linuxstbpreglow: Yes, he probably is ;) He can't access IRC from work, but reads the logs.
15:44:06austriancoder_is there an easy way to compile all targets with a simple call?
15:44:38JdGordonwith a script.. but its a waste of time
15:44:41preglowaustriancoder_: not that i know of
15:44:51preglowjust let the build servers do it, nobody minds red/yellow as long as its fixed
15:45:14preglowis the vmware image at VMwareDevelopmentPlatform the shiznit, or is there some other source?
15:46:36LambdaCalculus37I've had no problems with the vmware image.
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15:54:27n1sthere is one annoying problem with the vmware image, the regular user isn't a member of the 'audio' group so the sims crash when trying to play sound...
15:54:35n1seasy fix though
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16:07:01austriancoder_can somebody explain me what set_prescaled_volume execlty does and what a presacle is? Also why i need to call it when i chage most of the other sound settings? /firmware/sound.c
16:08:50markunaustriancoder_: looks like clipping prevention for the bass and trebble settings or something
16:08:58preglowaustriancoder_: the prescaler compensates for bass boosts, to prevent clipping
16:09:40preglowbass boosts/any kind of boost
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16:11:12austriancoder_so set_prescaled_volume is only needed when bass, treble or volume gets changed?
16:11:51preglowyes, afaik, and it's only needed when volume gets changed if treble/bass controls are active
16:13:11preglowit's basically just a measure to make sure that audio does not clip during tone controls processing, like if i want to boost bass 12 dB, i can decrease the audio amplitude by -12 dB before processing, then increase master gain by 12 dB after processing
16:13:28preglowonly change to the user is that tone controls do no distort when they would have without prescaling
16:13:43preglowhowever, this only works if there is enough headroom in the master gain to compensate for the prescale
16:13:55preglowso it does not work if you're listening to audio at the highest volume settings
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16:14:25austriancoder_okay.. i see
16:14:58preglowit's also the cause of a nasty glitch on those targets that need software tone controls, since the prescaler is software there and has latency compared to the master gain...
16:15:04*preglow wants low-latency dsp :/
16:16:59austriancoder_amiconn: do you know why MAS3587F needs no set_presacled_volume() and MAS3507D needs it?
16:17:20amiconnMAS3587F and MAS3539F handle clipping prevention internally
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16:19:07peturmight be an idea to put this in a comment in the code (if not already done)
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16:46:45PaulJamhi, what version does the latest bootloader for ipod mini have? (and does it already have support for CF cards?)
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16:51:36n1sPaulJam: I think you need to build one from svn to get cf support.
16:52:01PaulJamok, thank you
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16:57:30LambdaCalculus37I figure this also applies to other iPod models.
16:57:55popeyJust popped in to say "thanks" to the rockbox devs, I just updated my iRiver H140 and the UI has been improved, it's lovely. Thanks!
17:02:23markunpopey: you're welcome :)
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17:18:48austriancoder_it would be possible to use dsp on the sdl sim too.. or?
17:19:05preglowaustriancoder_: sure, i tried to hack sound.c to make the sim use the same code as target once, but gave up
17:19:27preglowdsp, like eq and crossfeed, is already run on sims, but i think i remember some other stuff that does not work
17:19:57*preglow tries to remember what that wwas
17:20:02austriancoder_preglow: cool.. i will try my luck.. have done some big changes localy in sound.c
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17:31:06*DerPapst notices some discussion about disktidy and doesn't understand JdGordon's proposals :-p
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17:34:36preglowDerPapst: just that each delete entry in the config file should be choosable
17:34:49preglowso i can choose to delete just .Trash and Recycler, for example
17:35:00preglowanyone know how i bloody reboot the vmware imagine?
17:35:54DerPapstah ok
17:36:13DerPapsti think that can be done...
17:36:18LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: I think your updated patch for user-configurable disktidy is on the mark.
17:36:50preglowbut that can wait as far as i'm concerned, the base functionality is more important
17:37:29LambdaCalculus37Yes, agreed.
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17:38:17LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: I like the fact that the patch allows me to add in odd trash files, like FINDER.DAT files from MacOS 9. :)
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17:39:24preglowit sucks a bit that old users won't get new entries which are bundled by default unless they first delete the old cfg by hand, though
17:39:54LambdaCalculus37Or we write in the documentation that they can edit the file by hand with a text editor and add in whatever it is they want.
17:40:01preglowperhaps add an explicit "reset configuration file" to make it more apparent how it works?
17:40:05DerPapstadd revision numbers to the config file :-P
17:40:34 Quit faemir (Remote closed the connection)
17:41:01LambdaCalculus37preglow: That could be useful.
17:41:25LambdaCalculus37Users can also reset their config file in case something breaks.
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17:41:32preglowthe vmware image doesn't seem to handle cowon d2 well :/
17:41:33 Quit petur ("later")
17:41:35*preglow wonders why
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17:44:02*DerPapst adds config file reset thingy
17:44:57LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: Let me know when you post the patch so I can grab it and try it out.
17:45:33DerPapstmkay, will do :-)
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17:46:47*LambdaCalculus37 will work on some documentation
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17:49:51linuxstbpreglow: Is it missing the latest multilibs patch?
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18:00:20preglowlinuxstb: maybe, what's that for?
18:00:26preglowlinuxstb: and how do i find out?
18:00:43linuxstbWhat error do you get?
18:02:56DerPapstresetting the cfg worked but i need to add a splash and somehow the config file looks a bit wired at the end :-P
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18:08:28preglowlinuxstb: libgcc.a uses FPA instructions, whereas random.o does not
18:08:45preglowlinuxstb: then failed to merge target specific data of file libgcc.a
18:10:31DerPapstsounds like the problem the multi lib patch fixes
18:10:44linuxstbYes, that's the multilibs patch. It builds a libgcc.a for each specific CPU type Rockbox targets.
18:11:09linuxstbYou'll need to run for ARM again - that should fix it.
18:11:15preglowwell, i guess i'll have to build that again
18:11:29preglowsomeone (not me, of course) should update the image :>
18:11:47preglowi wonder if 2 gigs is enough to rebuild gcc...
18:11:54preglowhrmf, 600 meg free, only
18:11:59preglowdoesn't sound like it's enough
18:12:33preglowno vmware users here that have already done this and can tar along arm-elf/ ?
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18:21:15DerPapstLambdaCalculus37: added new patch with config file reset
18:21:39DerPapstpreglow: ^ too :-)
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18:23:46LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: Cool, getting the patch now.
18:23:55LambdaCalculus37I'm going to compile shortly.
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18:35:17*DerPapst created a crap folder with junk files in to test ;-)
18:35:39*DerPapst adds "lots of" to last sentence
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18:44:03jhMikeStoffe82: I need to Audio LDO Enable pin too. I can't do much with the codec switched off. btw, feel free to send the tracing board here and I'll send it back when done since I'm going to be bugging alot otherwise. :)
18:45:44jhMikeSor perhaps it's possible to do this deductively by checking which pins are configured as GPIO + output. most are known already anyway.
18:49:54toffe82jhMikeS: I can do that, I think you will go faster as I have not so many time
18:50:10toffe82I will send it next week as I am out this week
18:51:17jhMikeSok, thanks, I'll try a MUXC dump though and try to get somewhere sooner
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18:56:16LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: Compiling a new build with your disktidy patch applied.
18:58:25DerPapstLambdaCalculus37: :-)
18:58:32LambdaCalculus37Warning in disktidy.c; will check.
18:59:24LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: Check line 94; function declaration isn't a prototype.
19:01:19DerPapstmaybe add void between ()
19:02:16LambdaCalculus37on void tidy_write_config() ?
19:02:29 Join gevaerts [0] (
19:02:36DerPapstyes. on void tidy_write_config(void)
19:03:25DerPapsttesting.. but it'll take a while...
19:03:29LambdaCalculus37Okay, rebuiding.
19:05:03w1ll14mjhMikeS: i don't understand ata timings ;)
19:05:20 Part toffe82
19:05:27w1ll14mjhMikeS: i tried some a few mins ago, it seems i need to learn some more abuot it first
19:05:33jhMikeSw1ll14m: me neither since I've never done any work on that :)
19:05:45w1ll14msame here: )
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19:07:01LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: disktidy works on my c240.
19:07:13DerPapstgood. :-)
19:07:24DerPapstcompiling error resolved this way?
19:08:04*DerPapst makes a note
19:08:16LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: I'll post a new version of the patch up.
19:11:15DerPapstyou only changed this or anything more?
19:11:52LambdaCalculus37Just fixed warnings.
19:12:01LambdaCalculus37Now it compiles clean.;
19:12:16LambdaCalculus37preglow: Still here?
19:12:28DerPapstok :-)
19:13:01LambdaCalculus37I'll work on the manual page and post that up.
19:13:14*LambdaCalculus37 wants a chance to flex his LaTeX muscles :)
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19:18:35w1ll14mhow can i get access to the windows ce binaries in nk.bin from beast ?
19:18:44*pixelma welcomes every manual contributor, badly needed
19:18:44w1ll14mis it even possible ?
19:19:50linuxstbw1ll14m: This is #rockbox...
19:20:43w1ll14mlinuxstb: i'm aware of that, there just might be something intresting in it
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19:23:16LambdaCalculus37pixelma: Want to try out FS #8637?
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19:28:01*LambdaCalculus37 rebuilds for his c240 because he forgot to enable USB ;)
19:28:33*amiconn wonders what's up with all this forgetting
19:28:50*amiconn enabled that once, long ago, in the Makefile
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19:30:02*amiconn should probably do it in the config-*.h files, then it'll even survive a reconfigure
19:30:13*DerPapst would probably add that to the config-*.h files
19:30:52amiconnEspecially since I have other changes permanently enabled there (disk poweroff for Player)
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19:40:12*LambdaCalculus37 notices that his Gigabeast suddenly refuses to turn on, and doesn't respond to a hard battery reset
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19:48:53syn4psewould anyone like to take a look at my rockbox patch (#8647)? It is a 3d vector maze traversal game that seems to run on all required platforms as specified in the FAQ
19:50:04Nico_Pw1ll14m: there was something like that on the wiki page
19:51:09markunsyn4pse: sounds nice
19:51:45syn4pse:D thanks.
19:52:14markunand looks nice too
19:52:34syn4psethanks again. I really wanted to give something back.
19:52:55w1ll14mNico_P: thanx
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19:57:23webguesthello. I was wondering if anyone knew if rockbox would ever support mp4 video...
19:58:03*w1ll14m finds in I2C.dll: I2C_Close I2C_Deinit I2C_IOControl I2C_Init I2C_Open I2C_PowerDown I2C_PowerUp I2C_Read I2C_Seek I2C_Write
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19:58:13markunwebguest: well, never say never :)
19:58:16 Join Eren [0] (n=eren@unaffiliated/erenturkay)
19:58:24w1ll14mmaybe some reverse engineering might get some nice info...
19:58:39Erenthere have been a lof of improvements since I last visited rockbox homepage
19:58:53ErenI hope we will be able to sync our rockbox based iPods with PC via usb-cable
19:58:58webguestis it something that is planned? or possible?
19:59:38BigBambiwebguest: Nothing is really planned - devs work on what they want
19:59:57markunand noone is working on it now
20:00:04killzonehow do you boot up the origional iriver firmware in UMS mode on a MTP, H10 after rockbox is installed?
20:00:05markunmaybe after the gigabeaSt port
20:00:06BigBambiwebguest: If someone writes it (in an acceptable manor) I'm sure it'll be considered
20:00:14killzoneI can boot to the MTP iriver firmware just fine
20:00:23gevaertsIs mp4 possible on non-gigabeat without more reverse engineering ?
20:00:50Erenhuh, reverse engineering is in everywhere :(
20:01:26LambdaCalculus37That's how we do things.
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20:02:01Erenand how you hack :)
20:02:19webguestwell, at least it is possible....the mpg support it has now still beats my sansa e200 support by a mile.
20:03:14gevaertsmpg is possible. From what I understand mp4 needs much more CPU
20:03:16 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
20:04:31 Quit killzone ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
20:04:36preglowLambdaCalculus37: am here now
20:05:15 Join killzone [0] (
20:05:33domonokyand mp4 is nearly pointless when we have a good working mpeg player, as you always need to transcode your video for the needed screensize..
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20:05:49LambdaCalculus37preglow: DerPapst and I cleaned up the disktidy config patch in FS #8637; want to take a look at it?
20:05:57preglowLambdaCalculus37: not right now
20:06:00*gevaerts disagrees there. Lots of online videos are 320x240
20:06:21LambdaCalculus37But not every DAP has a screen resolution of 320x240.
20:06:34gevaertsTrue, but some have...
20:06:34LambdaCalculus37preglow: No problem. When you can.
20:06:42webguestisn't mp4 much smaller filesize?
20:06:56domonokywe would better do with a good transcoder with rockbox presets included in rbutil.. :-)
20:07:23*gevaerts doesn't disagree :-)
20:07:47syn4psewebguest: generally, the more you compress, the more taxing the rendering is on the processor. So... extrapolate
20:08:06domonokybut ofcourse if someone writes a working mp4 player for rockbox, we wont object.. :-)
20:08:15syn4pse:D i'd be stoked
20:08:50gevaertsWhat format does the e200 OF play natively ?
20:08:57AndyIHello All!
20:08:58*domonoky thinks rockbox needs more "someone"s :-)
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20:09:10DerPapstgevaerts: mjpeg iirc
20:09:16*syn4pse looks at everyone for someones
20:09:26*gevaerts hands out mirrors
20:09:58LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: It's indeed MJPEG.
20:10:03AndyIQuestion possible add support for Samsung S5L840F ?
20:10:04webguestI use winff with rockbox presets, is this the best option?
20:10:05LambdaCalculus37In a .mov container.
20:10:23 Quit mf0102 ("Verlassend")
20:10:27killzoneanyone have a clue about my H10, UMS problem?
20:10:37gevaertswebguest: probably, unless you like to use ffmpeg manually
20:11:09LambdaCalculus37killzone: The manual explains how to do the UMS trick on the H10.
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20:11:36killzoneI have no problem getting in UMS mode before roxbox is installed
20:11:51killzoneand I can boot to the iriver firmware but its in MTP mode
20:12:25Arathiskillzone: hold down O while booting and it will go into emergency mode which is an ums mode
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20:13:27gevaertsAndyI: what do you mean ?
20:13:47webguestsorry, I am lagging big time...
20:13:53LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Looks like it's on the wiki:
20:13:59killzoneit dosent work to enter UMS after the roxbox firmware in on
20:14:42killzoneI can hold back <−−- and boot back into the origional firmware but holding O wont work to go in UMS anymore
20:14:54gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: yes, but that doesn't make me understand the question
20:16:04LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Perhaps he's asking about a port to a device?
20:16:21gevaertskillzone: what happens when you plug in the usb cable while runnning rockbox ?
20:16:35AndyI<gevaerts> Possible porting RockBox on this CPU?
20:16:51killzoneit asks for drivers for roxbox media player
20:17:29webguestanyone else get static sound from rockbox on e200?
20:17:38gevaertskillzone: what happens if you plug in while holding "right" ?
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20:18:02bertrikwebguest: what do you mean by static sound?
20:18:24killzoneok that worked, thanks
20:18:29bertrikwhite noise, clicks, clipping?
20:18:33killzoneshould of thought to try that
20:19:25gevaertsAndyI: it should be possible, but supporting the CPU is only a small part of porting rockbox to a device
20:20:17domonokywhat core is in this samsung cpu ? arm ?
20:20:56gevaertsActually, it seems to be CalmRISC. That will be more work
20:21:22domonokyCalmRisk16, that would be some work.. a 16bit architecture..
20:21:28bertrikwebguest: some people report interference from flash access in the sound on the sansa e200, especially with certain headphones
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20:21:39*amiconn thinks we should stop porting to new arm targets for a while
20:21:43*gevaerts checks again to make sure
20:21:52amiconnarm is becoming kinda boring...
20:21:54webgueston menus, when music is paused there is white is there suring playback also but not as noticeable
20:22:25domonokyamiconn: then buy a player with another arch, and start a new port.. new players are always welcome :-)
20:22:31shotofaddsamiconn: sounds like a good idea, i need a few weeks off :p
20:23:00LambdaCalculus37And pretty much every player coming out nowadays is ARM based.
20:23:11 Quit killzone ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
20:23:12amiconnshotofadds: The ones already being worked on are an exception of course
20:23:21shotofaddsmeh :/
20:23:25gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: don't you see the point ? amiconn doesn't like most new players ;)
20:23:43webguestI'm using original sandisk buds.
20:23:43LambdaCalculus37amiconn: Don't forget that you recently ported to a Coldfire-based player, too. :)
20:23:49bertrikhas rockbox ever been ported to a 16-bit architecture?
20:24:02webguestsuring = during
20:24:12amiconnbertrik: There were the beginnings of a gmini 1xx / gmini sp port
20:24:24amiconnCalmrisc 16 ...
20:24:54LambdaCalculus37But that code's been wiped from the source tree, hasn't it?
20:25:22webguestso if it is flash access there is no fix?
20:25:27bertrikwebguest: I have a sansa e260 and I have no such problem, so I'm afraid I can't help you
20:25:40bertrikwebguest: is it a constant noise or do you hear some kind of pattern in it?
20:25:58bertrikwebguest: does your sansa have a radio?
20:26:03amiconnLambdaCalculus37: Only the target specific parts. The (partial) datatype adjustments were kept
20:26:24amiconnBut calmrisc16 is a nasty architecture
20:26:38amiconnNot only is it 16 bit, but also harvard architecture
20:27:34gevaertsNo overwriting code by accident ! That must be good !
20:28:06amiconnHah, but the gminis have no ram that can be used as instruction memory
20:28:22amiconnAll instruction memory is flash, ram is only usable for data
20:28:39amiconnThat puts *severe* constraints on codecs and plugins...
20:29:03*gevaerts sees the issue
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20:30:04webguestit is constant unless I am pressing buttons or using the wheel, then it is interupted
20:30:13webguestyes, I do have fm radio
20:30:44AndyI<amiconn> So it is possible or not?
20:31:34DerPapstalmost everything is possible, but someone has to do it
20:31:53DerPapstand if no one is willing nothing will hapen
20:31:54amiconnOther than that, I would have been happy to see rockbox running on the gminis. Gmini 1xx / SP were 2.5" HDD, 128x64 monochrome LCD targets. The plans also included porting to the Gmini 2xx, which would have been the first (and only) 4-bit greyscale target
20:31:59amiconn(16 shades)
20:32:02DerPapstso feel free to start the port :-)
20:32:04gevaertsAndyI: I would say possible, but very hard
20:32:37LambdaCalculus37So you have to be willing to really study hard and learn everything you can.
20:34:47amiconngevaerts: Another problem back then was (and probably still is) the compiler. There is an experimental gcc port, but I had/ve my doubts regarding its output
20:34:58amiconnAfaik, gcc is designed for 32 bit (and higher)
20:35:40gevaertsThere are a few 16 bit targets around, but they seem to be rare and not very well supported (at least not merged into the main tree)
20:35:41bertrikwebguest: Just guessing about the radio, but I can imagine that unmuted FM radio input could cause the noise. OTOH, I think that if this was the case, it would have been detected earlier by sansa devs
20:36:48bertrikwebguest: in one of the debug menus you can force the processor to run at a higher speed (80 MHz) instead of 30/24MHz. You could try that out to see if it makes a difference
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20:37:25preglowamiconn: the instruction set is the defining characteristic of working on an mp3 player for you?
20:37:33*preglow doesn't get why something is boring just because it's arm
20:38:08preglowshotofadds: is the d2 bootloader dual boot currently?
20:38:18preglowyes, it pretty much has to be
20:38:21preglowthen why can't i find the code :/
20:39:46bertrikhmm, where did webguest go?
20:41:02AndyI<gevaerts> url? about 16 bit target
20:41:36shotofaddspreglow: the dual-boot is in crt0.s (it either branches to the OF immediately or copies/runs the bootloader)
20:41:53gevaertsAndyI: sorry, I don't have a URL handy. Just some vague memories
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20:45:02preglowshotofadds: i seem to have some funkiness after patch here
20:45:12preglowshotofadds: ah, no, here it comes
20:45:33*shotofadds wonders how you can say "funkiness" and then take it back...
20:45:54preglowpatched the bootloader and flashed it now, i'm a bit puzzled why it took so long to connect after usb
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20:46:03preglowwe'll see if it works now
20:46:23preglowis this the first dab version to be patched?
20:47:39shotofaddsno, mine's DAB, too.
20:47:44shotofaddsgood luck...
20:47:56*shotofadds puts £10 on preglow getting a CRC error on boot
20:48:17*gevaerts declares that bet invalid. shotofadds has insider knowledge
20:48:24preglowwell, let's hope for calm seas
20:48:52shotofaddsyou know you have to flick the hold switch to get rockbox, right?
20:49:05 Quit goffa_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:49:32shotofaddswell, try that :p
20:49:43preglowhow long is boot supposed to take?
20:49:58preglowright, i have to unflick hold...
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20:50:25preglowwell, this looks peachy
20:50:30preglowalways cool to see the rockbox logo on a new device :P
20:50:37shotofaddsnice one :-)
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20:51:28shotofaddsthe bootloader pauses while hold is on, so you can read those lovely messages.... I really should remove that.
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20:51:51preglowno biggie
20:51:56preglowwhat clock do we run at right now?
20:52:11shotofaddsdefault is 48, boost is 192
20:52:12preglowhmm, top part of the screen is clipped away
20:52:26shotofaddsyep.. have you read the Known Issues part of the wiki?
20:52:35shotofaddsfeel free to fix it :p
20:53:03preglowmissed that
20:53:16shotofaddsdid you compile the touchscreen patch in?
20:53:26preglowwent as vanilla as i could for starters
20:53:30shotofaddsprobably for the best ;-)
20:54:11preglowwell, i've found it to seldom be a flat out bad strategy :P
20:54:43preglownow, what the hell shall i hack at first
20:55:25shotofaddsexpect lots of things to fail occasionally (and randomly) at this point, due to the nand driver. eg. loading plugins/codecs might unexpectedly abort. very occasioanlly the font or backdrop might be screwed up.
20:55:39shotofaddsit's a good job it doesn't play music at this stage, really...
20:57:24 Quit syn4pse ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b5/2008041514]")
20:58:36*shotofadds is glad gevaerts called off that bet...
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21:14:05bertrikBDF files are just text files, right? I was looking at FS #8905 which contains an updated version of nimbus-11.bdf, but I can't see any difference
21:14:22 Quit barrywardell (Remote closed the connection)
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21:14:51bertrikthe svn properties on the nimbus-10, 11, 12 files do appear to be different
21:15:05 Quit miepchen^schlaf ()
21:15:06zeLambdaCalculus37: dunno if its still useful, hopeful, or relevant, but i finally found my spare karma mainboard
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21:17:30LambdaCalculus37ze: It'll still be hopeful in the future, but until I can get ahold of the source diffs for eCos, the Karma port isn't going anywhere right now.
21:17:44LambdaCalculus37So hang onto the board, and when the time comes, I'll give you a holler.
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21:18:19zethe source diffs for eCos? isn't that sigmatel property?
21:18:21 Quit styleism ()
21:18:34LambdaCalculus37No, that's Red Hat's.
21:18:43LambdaCalculus37Besides, the Karma's a PortalPlayer-based DAP.
21:22:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:24:28preglowshotofadds: i don't really expect it to be perfect, n
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21:26:57*preglow wonders why flashing the d2 with a new firmware reset the date...
21:27:15 Quit tvelocity (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:27:16n1sbertrik: yes they are and no 'svn diff' doesn't see a difference either...
21:28:39*shotofadds wonders why an awful lot when Cowon are involved
21:29:18pixelmabertrik: looks like he posted the wrong (original) file but I think I see what's wrong. The "braceright" is missing the "encoding" ID line (probably because fontforge screwed those up for me sometimes and had to fix it by hand)
21:29:24shotofaddsthe RTC date (from the PCF50606) doesn't work in Rockbox. I have no idea what scheme they're using.
21:29:42pixelmabertrik: compare to the above and below characters
21:30:10bertrikpixelma: ok, I'll have a look at it, just installed the font
21:30:34bluebroth3rLlorean: do we have a rule about quoting on the forums?
21:30:53mcuelenaereis there some kind of button detection slowdown? because currently when I press down, the menu just goes to the lowest menu item
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21:31:32pixelmashould be "ENCODING 125" in the .bdf file, line 1343 then
21:31:57pixelma^ bertrik
21:32:41bertrikpixelma: ah I see it's missing from the bdf file indeed, but don't know how to check the glyph on the target
21:32:46pixelmathe } probably won't show up currently
21:33:54 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:34:17*n1s tried with the opti2.kbd i a sim } was replaced by a dotted box
21:34:26pixelmabertrik: you could use the text_editor
21:35:06 Quit stripwax ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.")
21:36:55bertrikpixelma: Good idea, but the { and } actually look correct in text_editor...
21:36:55 Quit Jeffk ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
21:37:26bertrikI could just fix it as it's clearly incorrect in the current version and ask the original submitter to check it
21:39:12n1sbertrik: does that use the ui font though?
21:39:39bertrikehm, no ...
21:39:46*bertrik hides
21:40:09pixelmait looks correctly in the virtual keyboard as long as you don't use an own keyboard file (because it's using the built-in font) but if you used it and see the text with nimbus-11 selected it is replaced by the "unknown char" dotted box
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21:43:07preglowshotofadds: file not found :P
21:44:06shotofaddspreglow: that's just another reason why you might fancy a look at the nand driver... :g
21:44:20preglowshotofadds: but that's weird, rockbox.iaudio is in the same place as always
21:44:30w1ll14mjhMikeS: you still here ?
21:44:33preglowi uploaded some music, but that's that
21:44:43shotofaddsit's reading the FAT incorrectly. boot the OF or re-copy it and it'll be fine.
21:44:57preglowshotofadds: any way to reset it, then? holding power off doesn't seem to work
21:45:27bertrikpixelma: ok, I'll get it fixed
21:45:35shotofaddsif power off doesn't work, there's a reset button next to the usb socket. I need to fix that.
21:45:42pixelmabertrik: nice, thanks :)
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21:46:52markunAndyI: which player with a s5l8450 do you want to port rockbox to?
21:47:21shotofaddspreglow: or hold power for >1 sec, then the PCF should time-out after 8 seconds.
21:47:27jhMikeSw1ll14m: yes
21:47:49preglowshotofadds: so if i keep power pressed for 1 sec, it'll reboot after eight secs?
21:49:09shotofaddswe don't clear the PCF time-out register when it sends us the ONKEY1S interrupt, so it should power off after eight secs, yes.
21:49:34shotofadds(I want to keep it that way, btw).
21:49:42preglowyeah, understandable
21:49:49 Join ender [0] (
21:49:52preglowaccording to retail usb, my rockbox tree exists
21:49:56preglowbut not according to rockbox :Z
21:50:35w1ll14mjhMikeS: can you understand assembly ?
21:50:39preglowshotofadds: time is seriously messed up here too, btw, it doesn't agree with retailos at all
21:51:31shotofaddspreglow: as I said, the nand driver is easily confused, sometimes it returns an 'old' copy of some blocks (rather bad if it gets the FAT wrong..)
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21:51:49*bluebrother considers unsubscribing from the users ml
21:51:57shotofaddsweird, the time works here. maybe you'd like to have a look into that...
21:52:13preglowshotofadds: well, it's pretty clear where i should spend my effort first, heh
21:52:27preglowshotofadds: yeah, planning to just check out the rtc as a small sart
21:52:28 Quit ali_as ("reboot.")
21:52:31preglowbluebrother: why?
21:52:34shotofaddsoh yes, the important features first eh :p
21:52:38 Quit homielowe_ ()
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21:52:57bluebrotherpreglow: too much noise and ignorant people :(
21:53:07jhMikeSw1ll14m: I think so - haven't done much assembly coding </irony>
21:53:12preglowi love the people who need to have the rules explained to them
21:53:20preglowi just delete those peoples mails without reading them
21:53:33n1sbluebrother: i did that long ago...
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21:53:37shotofaddspreglow: currently it re-uses the rather bare H300(?) RTC code at the moment. take a look there as a starting point
21:53:42preglowwe should periodically spam the list with the rules, btw, or do we do that?
21:53:47bluebrotheryep. And who don't understand that rules are to get followed, not to get nagged about all time
21:53:56w1ll14mjhMikeS: might be intresting:
21:53:58preglowshotofadds: i wrote the ipod pcf code, so i know how it works pretty well
21:54:07bluebrotherif he wants to discuss the etiquette ... but he even didn't do that.
21:54:07preglowshotofadds: ehh, at least the rtc part of it :-)
21:54:18shotofaddspreglow: eggcellent :-)
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21:56:01shotofaddspreglow: if you fancy enabling the PCF debug menu on the D2, that'd be a good start too :P
21:56:10preglowshotofadds: on it right now, heh
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21:58:03mcuelenaereamicon:: a
21:58:08mcuelenaereamiconn: are you there?*
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22:02:11 Part mcflow
22:02:36preglowouch, the vmware image is sarge
22:03:06w1ll14mdebian sarge is a release
22:03:15preglowthe old stable
22:03:22bluebrotherthen it would be slarge ;-)
22:03:26preglowis there a sarge tree arund?
22:03:29preglowi need vim :/
22:03:54*jhMikeS tries to pay no attention to various OSs
22:03:55bluebrothercan't you apt-get it?
22:04:04w1ll14mjhMikeS: have you checked the pastebin url i typed above ?
22:04:32jhMikeSw1ll14m: yes
22:04:38preglowbluebrother: repo is broken here, it seems
22:04:42preglowbluebrother: it's some greek mirror
22:04:47w1ll14mjhMikeS: is it somewhat interesting ?
22:04:58bluebrotherurgh :(
22:04:59 Quit ender` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:05:00preglowbluebrother: but my point is, stable repos are etch now, not sarge, so it'll probably be one hell of an update
22:05:03w1ll14mjhMikeS: maybe some registers could be used ?
22:05:22*bluebrother avoids debian if possible
22:05:29 Join homielowe [0] (n=eric_j_l@
22:05:31*w1ll14m only uses gentoo
22:05:32 Quit faemir (Remote closed the connection)
22:05:41w1ll14mif possible
22:05:47*preglow uses ubuntu unless forced to do otherwise
22:05:51*preglow is tired of battling with his os
22:06:17*linuxstb shares preglow's view, and is slowly migrating from debian to ubuntu...
22:06:38bluebrothersame here ... that's the reason why I'm keeping Fedora
22:06:39*linuxstb isn't volunteering for a Ubuntu vmware image though
22:06:52preglowi think debian is a good enough choice for this image
22:06:56preglowbut etch would be nice
22:06:58jhMikeSw1ll14m: We know which i2c's the chips are on
22:07:12w1ll14mjhMikeS: ok :)
22:07:28jhMikeSthe rest is just standard. I'll already wrote the driver but can't test anything without actually powering up one the ic's on the bus.
22:07:35mcuelenaeredoes someone here has some experience with a PIC18xx?
22:07:48 Join faemir [0] (
22:08:04n1sjhMikeS: do you know any other gpio pins than the ones in GigabeatSPortPins ? if os could you fill them in, please :)
22:08:06DerPapstjhMikeS: is that dangerous=
22:08:07bluebrotheronly AVR on my side
22:08:15w1ll14mjhMikeS: i will try to find something related to pcm
22:09:38jhMikeSDerPapst: not if I know which GPIO turns on the LDO for the codec.
22:10:40jhMikeSTV+WM are on I2C1, FM is on I2C2
22:11:30 Quit ompaul (Client Quit)
22:12:40*bertrik did some hacking with a PIC16F84 a long time ago, but is happy he forgot about that
22:13:07pregloware there any real differences between pcf50605 and 50606 ?
22:13:43n1sjhMikeS: regarding your previous comment about which pins are outputs, this is what I have found in the nk_eboot.exe: gpio1 pins 0, 21, 22, 24, 26, 29 and 30 are outputs, gpio 2 pins 12, 13, 16, 26 and 27 are outputs, gpio3 pins 2, 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, 14, 16, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 are outputs,
22:13:51mcuelenaerebertrik: you don't know of any good decompilers besides IDA? :)
22:14:11mcuelenaereregarding the PIC that is
22:14:37bertrikmcuelenaere: no, sorry
22:14:57jhMikeSn1s: the GDIRs are in the debug menu :). It's getting the cadidates from the SWMUXCTL that's the pain (but done already)
22:15:29preglowjhMikeS: :D
22:15:36n1sjhMikeS: ah, right, did the digging already though :)
22:15:40jhMikeSthe have to be selected as GPIO in SW_MUX_CTL_... as well
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22:16:34*jhMikeS will see if the AND between those sets actually narrows things down or if it should wait until the tracing board arrives
22:17:43n1sor if you are confident in your i2c driver do it brute force by trying each pin :D
22:18:14 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
22:19:05jhMikeSit's not the i2c driver. I have to set GPIOs to turn on power supplies to a chip before I can even try to send anything to it on i2c.
22:19:24jhMikeSif the i2c is messed up, well, no harm and it fails to read/write
22:19:49n1syeah, i know, but if you try to set one bit and test i2c, set next bit, etc..
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22:21:14jhMikeSIt follows the procedure from the manual so I imagine I'd get some activity after it sends the slave address.
22:21:26 Quit mcuelenaere ()
22:21:38preglowany reason why all rtc circuits use bcd?
22:22:11n1spreglow: not all rtc's are
22:22:24preglowall i've seen are
22:22:28jhMikeSI don't think most stuff on the imx31/mc13783 does (don't hold me to that though)
22:22:30n1sthe two (!) rtc's in the gigabeat S are not for example
22:22:38preglowreally, nw
22:23:09stripwaxguess back in the days you could drive an eight-segment display with simple logic if the rtc was bcd
22:23:54stripwaxok, so what's needed to implement standby clocking on pp targets?
22:23:57preglowoh, the days when that was important
22:24:07preglowstripwax: standby clocking?
22:24:17stripwax32kHz? I think
22:24:29w1ll14mstripwax: deep sleep ?
22:24:33preglowahh, right, sleep
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22:24:37stripwaxIf that's what it's called! :-)
22:24:41n1spreglow: the as3514 (in sansas isn't either) but the rockbox get_time() expects it in that format so it is bcd encoded in the driver after being read.
22:24:52preglowstripwax: there are some research docs on the clocksel part of the pp around
22:24:53preglowfrom mrh
22:25:03preglowyou could see if that lists 32khz osc source
22:25:20jhMikeSwhy not just reimplement get_time? :\
22:25:24preglowi sure would
22:25:35stripwaxi think someone (amiconn?) already did that, but could be mistaken. Will take a quick look though
22:25:51n1sjhMikeS: that's one thing I've thought about doing after fighting with that stuff :)
22:26:10 Quit gregzx (Client Quit)
22:26:57jhMikeSn1s: if you got the RTC working using the external one, why shouldn't we use that until if/when the deal with the SoC one is figured out?
22:27:00bertrikset the clock to UTC and use timezone info to automatically set DST :P
22:27:51 Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
22:27:56stripwaxIn fact looks like 32khz is already in system-pp502x.c
22:28:57n1sjhMikeS: both my rtc attempts had bugs :) the external one gave sane time date readings after being set (time moving forward etc) but the year would change with each read, I'll look at it again when I find time
22:29:59*bertrik takes some time from his RTC and hands it to n1s
22:30:43*n1s has insane amounts of stuff to do for the rest of april (many of those things involve drinking beer though) :D
22:35:42n1sno, (my programming skills are not at 'coding while drunk' levels yet) :D
22:37:22preglowmine probably are, i'm just bloody lousy at it
22:37:35preglowit also happens to be the last thing i want to do when drinking
22:38:00*preglow found the "always folk music" dab channel
22:38:59linuxstbIsn't digital radio wonderful? ;)
22:39:45*gevaerts still doesn't understand what radio has to do with fingers
22:39:56 Quit tvelocity_ (Remote closed the connection)
22:40:00preglowgevaerts: fingers?
22:40:06shotofaddspreglow: what firmware version are you using? DAB didn't work at all for me until 4.53, and only works well now that 4.55 has been released.
22:40:12gevaertspreglow: _digital_ radio
22:40:21preglowgevaerts: :PPP
22:40:23preglowhard one...
22:40:34preglowshotofadds: 4.55, and a couple of channels didn't pop up until now
22:40:38preglowshotofadds: i just updated
22:40:48*petur has a go at programming after drinking (for the interested: geuze mort subite)
22:40:51alienbiker99preglow what player are you talking about?
22:40:53preglowshotofadds: it came with 4.54, which also had working dab
22:40:56preglowalienbiker99: cowon d2
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22:41:04preglowpetur: i love mort subite :/
22:41:08alienbiker99ah ok.
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22:41:35shotofaddsah good, I think linuxstb has had a dab-ble around with v4.55 and found some interesting stuff ;-)
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22:50:19preglowa channel exclusively for advertising weather conditions at sea, now this is great
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22:55:14Bagderoh, possibly interesting TI news pending
22:56:34scorche|shregarding new chip, or OSS help?
22:56:42Bagdeross help
22:57:04BagderJoe hints about a "possible gcc port" from them
22:58:34 Quit bertrik ("bye")
22:59:00Bagderthe longer rant in my blog of course ;-)
23:00:34preglowgcc port from ti?
23:00:47preglowi ponder hw useful that'll be
23:00:50Bagderwell, presumably only still
23:00:52preglowdsps are hard targets for c compilers
23:01:08 Quit m0f0x ("oo")
23:02:55preglowleaps and bounds better than not having a c compiler, of course..
23:03:07 Quit OlivierBorowski ("Konversation terminated!")
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23:13:05preglowanyone think merging the pcf50605 and 50606 drivers would be a bad idea?
23:13:24 Quit miepchen^schlaf ()
23:15:11*shotofadds thinks it'd be a great idea, but was too much of a newbie to merge any more than the register #defines...
23:15:47preglowi don't think there are any differences, really
23:15:55preglowthere is some ipod specific code here and there, but that can be ifdeffed
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23:22:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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23:26:52H10erhello there!
23:28:18H10erI have a question about RockBox. Anyone in charge here?
23:28:35gevaertsNoone is in charge :) If you have a question, just ask
23:28:37 Quit thegeek (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:29:31H10erUm, I was wondering if RockBox supports WMA Pro, or if there is any prospect of future development
23:29:46n1sit doesn't currently
23:30:32H10eris that because the source code is not open?
23:31:07preglowi don't think anyone knows how wma pro works, no
23:31:08linuxstbYes (as far as I know)
23:31:26n1showever ffmpeg got a gsoc project for this summer to investigate and maybe try to implement support (in ffmpeg, which the rockbox codec is based on)
23:31:30preglowwe're very interested in supporting absolutely all formats we can, unless they employ some kind of digital rights management scheme
23:31:33H10eroh, pitty! but RockBox is great anyway!
23:31:50preglown1s: why, cool! i didn't know that
23:31:56preglowi need to find the ffmpeg soc overview
23:32:11scorche|shpreglow: i liked it last night =/
23:32:18 Quit Mathiasdm ("Yuuw!")
23:32:43H10eri was surfing some forums and everyone seemed to ditch WMA. I really don't understand why. seems it's a thing against Microsoft
23:33:00preglowH10er: well, wma v1 and v2 really isn't a very good format
23:33:03linuxstbpreglow: You can just click on organisations here to see their projects -
23:33:04preglowor at least it has no very good encoders
23:33:08scorche|shther eis also something about ALAC and AAC
23:33:09preglowlinuxstb: thanks
23:33:28scorche|shwell, AAC-LC
23:33:28*linuxstb thought AAC was a project for ffmpeg last year...
23:33:37H10erbut Pro is great. at 64kbps it does great compared to mp3 encoded with lame at the same bitrate
23:33:48 Quit pondlife (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:34:05alienbiker9964kbps blech. such bad quality
23:34:05preglowaac-lc again?
23:34:07*scorche|sh wonders why he would want to have such a low bitrate mp3/WMA
23:34:08preglowthat's bloody almost finished
23:34:21preglowthey've been reviewing a patch for that on the ffmpeg list lately...
23:34:40*gevaerts prefers his 48kbps mp3s
23:34:44H10erwell i guess, deductively speaking, if its that good at low bitrates it would be at high ones oo
23:34:59scorche|shH10er: not necessarily...
23:35:20scorche|shi still dont know why one would want to have that low bitrate of those formats anyway
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23:36:14H10erwell i think it's about personal taste. its called 'psycho'-acoustic after all. not al ears hear the same
23:36:41H10eri don't like low bitrates either
23:36:42scorche| encode *music* at that bitrate?
23:36:51H10erbut it was impressive
23:37:17H10erlow bitrates sound awful, definately
23:37:20linuxstbI've been quite impressed with HE-AAC (or whatever it's called..) at low bitrates as well.
23:37:28H10erbut comparing is different
23:37:42H10erdoes rockbox support HE-AC?
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23:38:58preglowH10er: if your player is powerful enough: yes
23:39:04bluebrotherall lossy compression uses some sort of psycho-acoustic model ...
23:39:19preglowbluebrother: well, an encoder doesn't _have_ to use one
23:39:25H10erwell I have H10 20gb. would that be considered powerful?
23:39:32preglowthe rockbox mp3 encoder has no psychoaccoustic model, for example
23:39:40 Join sitwon [0] (
23:39:52preglowH10er: you'd need a 100mhz++ cpu for that, he-aac is a very demanding format
23:40:00 Quit tedrock ()
23:40:02bluebrotherI wouldn't use that for music encoding anyway :)
23:40:35 Join EspeonEfi [0] (i=espeonee@STRATTON-FIFTY-ONE.MIT.EDU)
23:40:44bluebrotherbecause recording shouldn't use lossy formats. Transcoding can always be done later
23:40:46 Join keanu [0] (n=keanu@unaffiliated/keanu)
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23:41:05keanuis there a 64 char cutoff per line in theme config files?
23:41:10bluebrotherincluding some enhancement stuff. Like denoising if needed.
23:41:31H10erwell, not everybody has their own philarmonic orchestra at home though...
23:41:56gevaertsno ?
23:42:08*preglow strokes his philharmonic orchestra
23:42:16 Join Rincewind [0] (
23:43:02bluebrotherit's like image manipulation: you wouldn't save the intermediate files as compressed jpg, would you?
23:43:16keanuI was testing a theme in a sim, and noticed that "viewers iconset: /.rockbox/icons/default-white_viewers_icons.6x8x16.bmp" would show "read_bmp_file: can't open '/.rockbox/icons/default-white_viewers_icons.6x8x.bmp', rc: -1" in the log
23:43:20H10erwell, no
23:43:43preglowno one said it was for an intermediate format
23:43:43H10erbut if you rip CDs, you have to rip them to a lossy format
23:43:48preglowH10er: no
23:43:50bluebrothersame goes for music.
23:43:58preglowH10er: i've got my entire cd collection as lossless wavpack, for example
23:44:16keanu"viewers iconset: [....]6x6x" is exactly 64 characters though, and the '.bmp' appears to be appended automatically if it isn't there (changing .bmp to .bm will still show .bmp in logs)
23:44:20H10erwell, my 20gb are not that much for my cd collection in lossless...
23:44:24bluebrotherH10er: that's wrong. You neither have to rip to lossy nor do you (usually when ripping) want to work on the music file later
23:44:31*scorche|sh wonders why wavpack and not, say, FLAC
23:44:42preglowH10er: i transcode versions of the files to lossy vorbis for portable use
23:44:51preglowscorche|sh: wavpack compresses better, and i just plain like it better
23:44:57H10eroh, i get what you mean
23:45:13H10erwhy not rip the CD every time?
23:45:16*stripwax tries rockbox built with thumb instructions
23:45:22preglowH10er: ripping cds is time-consuming
23:45:30stripwaxH10er - transcoding is fast
23:45:39preglowH10er: this way, i do it only once, and can change the format of my entire lossily compressed cd collection over night
23:46:01stripwaxonly probably is you need two copies of everything (lossless + lossy)
23:46:09H10erbut you'd still need to rip aaallll your CDs to a lossless format first!
23:46:13bluebrotherbut disc space is cheap.
23:46:17preglowH10er: so given a couple of days, i can encode all my cds as he-aac, v4 lame mp3 and vorbis, then see which i like best
23:46:42stripwaxbluebrother - yeah, there is that.
23:46:44H10eroh, ok. I don't have all that disc space alltogether...
23:46:51n1sI use flac for listening at home and vorbis for portable but this is getting off topic :P
23:46:57preglowi got a 250 gig portable disk for this alone, it wasn't very expensive
23:46:58bluebrotherH10er: you need to rip anyway. It doesn't make a difference to the ripping process what output format you're using
23:47:02linuxstbkeanu: There's a limit of 32 characters for the icons filename - which excludes the ".rockbox/icons/" part
23:47:17preglowand 260++ cds only takes about 85 gigs
23:48:19keanulinuxstb, ah, ok. thanks
23:48:20*stripwax counts CDs .. nowhere near enough gigs..
23:48:43H10erwell, I have these huge complete works thingies for which you can't get the same format tags from CDDB (or FREEDB) and it's just a pain in the... neck
23:49:04H10erso you have to type everything in
23:49:05linuxstbThat's why it makes sense to rip/tag once...
23:49:13stripwaxheh, right
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23:49:36H10eranyway, I was also wondering, does rockbox have anything like SRS WOW and TruBASS?
23:49:36 Quit n1s ()
23:49:46stripwaxH10er - those are proprietary, so no
23:50:00H10er'like' them?
23:50:14linuxstbYou mean RSR OWO?
23:50:16stripwaxH10er - well, rockbox has crossfeed and eq, which is 'like' them, I suppose?
23:50:22*stripwax chuckles
23:51:45H10ersounds like a bad spin off!
23:51:57ZincAlloyI still don't get why anyone would need these anyway...
23:52:13stripwaxsome people actually use eq
23:52:14 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:52:19bluebrotherbecause it's called "wow"?
23:52:39H10eri think they sound good
23:52:45 Quit ZincAlloy ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:52:54preglowH10er: nothing quite like srs, no, that's a secret and proprietary algorithm
23:53:09H10eryeah, tell me about it. EQ on the H10 is a menace...
23:53:09bluebrotherI thought that too ... before I started to _really_ listen to music
23:53:10 Join ZincAlloy [0] (n=d9eed5e8@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
23:53:19preglowH10er: our eq is pretty decent, though
23:53:23preglowor so people tell me...
23:53:35H10eri know. it's the player that's a potato
23:54:08ZincAlloyI haven't ever heard any consumer "sound enhancement tool" that really improved sound..
23:54:08bluebrotheror maybe the 48kbps wma is crap ;-)
23:54:35H10eri don't use WMA nor 48kbps
23:55:06ZincAlloyan eq is only as good as the person who's turning the knobs..
23:55:09H10eryou can't improve sound
23:55:24gevaertsyes you can. If it's bad, you can mute it ;)
23:55:35 Quit Arathis ("Bye, bye")
23:55:37H10ersure, but there seems to be a buffering problem
23:55:46stripwaxwith rockbox or the OF?
23:56:16H10erthe playback has gaps when eq switched on and presets take forever to load
23:56:45bluebrotherthat's a performance issue, not a buffering problem
23:56:55bluebrotherthe cpu simply isn't powerful enough.
23:57:03H10eri don't know, i;m not the expert!
23:57:08ZincAlloya good mastering engineer can.. but that doesn't matter much when you mess up his product with SRSwow :)
23:57:10H10erpitty again!
23:57:16bluebrothercheck the FAQ ...
23:57:20stripwaxcan I use objdump to confirm that an object file has been built with thumb instructions?
23:57:35bluebrothertry a file format that requires less CPU to decode. Or use less bands in the eq
23:57:57stripwaxH10er - I'm pretty sure vorbis uses a lot less CPU on H10
23:58:11H10erZincAlloy - not everyone is an audiophile!
23:58:15bluebrotherand you can improve sound. For example, you can decrackle old vinly records.
23:58:28bluebrotheryou just can't make music out of crap, that's the problem
23:58:37ZincAlloydecrackling is not necessarily an improvement
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