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#rockbox log for 2008-04-29

00:00:07PaulJamthe official build has viewports, so if your wps uses the scrolling margins patch you'll have to modify it to work with the curent build
00:00:30*amiconn is rather confused now by the linker :(
00:00:51bertrikstill working on the UIE stuff?
00:01:23amiconnyes
00:01:28*^Parrot^ is not a coder just a new user of rockbox
00:01:35*bertrik knows nothing about that
00:01:46amiconnSomehow the linker tries to find crt0-pp-bl.o outside librockbox.a
00:02:11^Parrot^so If I see a theme that needs the scroller patch, it is not likely to work with the latest build?
00:02:15linuxstbThat's probably because it's specified in the linker script
00:02:15amiconnIf I remove firmware/ from the list of include paths, it complains in cannot find target/arm/crt0-pp-bl.o
00:02:33amiconnBut .a files don't include paths afaik
00:03:08amiconnIf I specify system.o explicitly on the command line, it works, but that's dirty
00:03:52amiconnAnd if I specify crt0-pp-bl.o explicitly (without removing the include path), it complains about duplicate symbols - obviously it tries to link that thing twice...
00:04:08bertrikare you sure crt0-pp-bl.o is actually inside librockbox.a?
00:04:15amiconnyes
00:04:20linuxstbMaybe it's something to do with the way the library is build - it's finding main (and UIE when added) in the bootloader .o, but not symbols in the .a file
00:04:43amiconnarm-elf-ar -t librockbox.a shows it
00:04:57PaulJam^Parrot^: you don't need to be a coder to modify the wps. the format is documented here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome?topic=CustomWPS
00:05:04amiconns/-t/t/
00:05:18^Parrot^what about bmp resize? should I make them 200x200 176x176 100x100? or make bmps at all 3 sizes depending on the theme?
00:05:28amiconneh?
00:06:19^Parrot^PaulJam: I was not planning on doing any wps work at all. I just wanted to find a theme that I liked (I hve found a few) some require bmp resize, scrillomng and/orAA
00:06:52 Quit EspeonEefi ("さよなら")
00:07:33PaulJam^Parrot^: i think the easiest way is to try the WPS. if you see a very basic text only WPS, then it doesn't work with the official build.
00:07:46^Parrot^k
00:08:16^Parrot^Trial and error... o the days of punch cards come flying back to my brain
00:08:36^Parrot^reading that wps page thanks
00:09:04gevaertsaustriancoder: volume seems the same as on my previous build (17229), but I can't hear any difference at all between -6 and +9 on 17229, so I'm afraid you'll need another tester for that.
00:09:17amiconnThe linker script specifies an explicit INPUT()
00:09:23^Parrot^at the risk of starting a war, what is the current status on a jpg patch or modified build that does suppor jpg?
00:09:25austriancodergevaerts: change bass settings
00:09:31*gevaerts either has wrong music or wrong ears for this
00:10:01gevaertsaustriancoder: I changed Settings -> Sound Settings -> Bass
00:10:08 Quit w1ll14m (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:11:35amiconnAha, hmm....
00:11:38austriancodergevaerts: okay.. I think i have found the probelm.. wm8751 defineds [SOUND_BASS] = {"dB", 1, 15, -60, 90, 0}, the probelm is now the 15.. I think i will revert this change until i/we found a good way to handle 1.5 db steps
00:14:18*gevaerts decides to never volunteer again for sound tests. You need to hear differences for that...
00:14:46austriancoder;)
00:15:11*linuxstb is reminded of the first version of the X5 audio driver that had something like no sound above about 10KHz - and no-one noticed for a while...
00:15:29Bagderyeah, I used that...
00:15:32gevaertsIn a way I'm lucky. I can use lower bitrates :)
00:15:42Bagder... without noticing
00:15:44linuxstbBagder: Yes, I was thinking of your ears ;)
00:15:58*linuxstb probably wouldn't have noticed anything either...
00:18:10*gevaerts decides to rip out al these useless audio settings
00:19:23 Quit einhirn_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:21:56 Nick gregzx is now known as GregZzZzZzZX (n=chatzill@dss148.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
00:23:04Nico_P^Parrot^: there's no patch or build that supports JPEG AA yet
00:23:09 Quit faemir (Connection timed out)
00:24:16Nico_Pgevaerts: #define HAVE_AUDIO_SETTINGS :)
00:25:16Bagder#define HAVE_TIN_EARS
00:25:19gevaertsNico_P: something like that. I think I'l keep the volume control :)
00:25:23*Bagder goes to bed
00:25:49*gevaerts thinks that this is an excellent idea. Goodnight
00:25:59Nico_Pgood night to you both ;)
00:26:05linuxstbOur users must be reassured to know devs of audio firmwares have such good hearing...
00:26:23*gevaerts only does usb :)
00:26:38^Parrot^Nico_P: thanx and GN
00:26:44 Quit gevaerts ("bedtime")
00:26:54*linuxstb only does lossless - so he can check the md5sum of the output
00:27:22DerPapsttricky :-)
00:27:59*Nico_P did the same for early buffering code
00:28:14Nico_P...I wish it was as easy now
00:30:38 Quit shotofadds ("Leaving")
00:33:04 Quit lee-qid_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:35:32 Join Sh0rtnArm3d [0] (n=rsiyasen@adsl-156-98-239.asm.bellsouth.net)
00:35:40Sh0rtnArm3dhelp
00:36:04Sh0rtnArm3dim trying to install rockbox on my Ipod Nano 1st Gen
00:36:44 Quit ompaul (Client Quit)
00:36:51Sh0rtnArm3dhowever when ever i try to install the bootloader i get an error saying "failed to add bootloader" in the progress window
00:37:31 Quit fyre^OS (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:38:18 Join bluefoxx [0] (n=bluefoxx@S01060015e968e813.vs.shawcable.net)
00:38:34Sh0rtnArm3dcan anyone help??
00:38:36bluefoxxwill rockbox run on a 2nd gen ipod nano?
00:38:48DerPapstbluefoxx: nope
00:39:04bluefoxxDerPapst: is it planned to be done??...
00:39:28Sh0rtnArm3dDerpapst: ne idea how to fix my "bootloader failed to add" problem?
00:39:40DerPapstSh0rtnArm3d: be patient. I don' know the solution to your problem but others might know.
00:39:46DerPapst*don't
00:40:24DerPapstbluefoxx: ports aren't planned, they're done by peoples interested in them.
00:40:26 Quit austriancoder (Remote closed the connection)
00:40:41 Quit bertrik ("bye")
00:40:58bluefoxxah, i see...
00:41:02DerPapstbluefoxx: and major problems have to be solved before a port is possible
00:41:09bluefoxxsuch as??...
00:41:20DerPapstso it's not very likely something happens for the next years
00:41:30 Join zajacattack [0] (n=42617dae@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-1e3e42a8048ea1db)
00:41:56DerPapstthe firmware is encrypted and it's currently not possible to run any custom code on the iPod
00:42:17bluefoxxwell that sucks then :\
00:42:20DerPapstsince this code has to be decrypted again.
00:43:06bluefoxxwould it help if someone pestered apple for the code?
00:44:09DerPapstSh0rtnArm3d: most people in here are from europe and it's ~Midnight - 1am here currently. But normally bootloader installation should work fine from rbutil. Have you tried to restore your Ipod before?
00:44:25DerPapstbluefoxx: no.
00:46:29 Join EspeonEefi [0] (i=espeonee@CERULEANCITY.MIT.EDU)
00:46:30DerPapstbluefoxx: only ~0.5% of all nano 2g would be in this key and apple doesn't care about such a minority.
00:46:31Sh0rtnArm3dDerpapst: restore? by pressing select and menu?
00:46:42DerPapstSh0rtnArm3d: restore with itunes
00:46:44DerPapstnot reset
00:47:44Sh0rtnArm3dDer: il try right now... tell me if im correct you goon itunes then click ipod then summary and then restore?
00:48:01DerPapstyep
00:48:26Sh0rtnArm3dDer: now it goes to some software update window
00:48:46Sh0rtnArm3d..now its downloading something
00:48:55bluefoxxso how can i reset a ipod to factory settings in linux? what tools are there?
00:48:58 Quit ^Parrot^ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:50:31DerPapstbluefoxx: dunno if you can in linux.
00:50:58Sh0rtnArm3dDer: man you rock worked like a charm
00:51:13 Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-1998a6d74973be26)
00:51:20bluefoxxDerPapst: damn. a computerless friend of mine wanted me to reset all the crap in his ipod he got given[a friend of his gave him they're old ipod]
00:51:41DerPapstbluefoxx: does the OF still work?
00:51:50Sh0rtnArm3dDer: i have one more question can i add music through itunes and still hear it on rockbox? and how about videos?
00:51:52bluefoxxDerPapst: yus
00:52:10 Quit ender` (" I think I remember an episode of MacGyver where he overthrew a violent dictator with a rubber band, 2 bottle caps, and some")
00:52:24DerPapstbluefoxx: mount the iPod, go to iPod_Control/MusicFxx and dele all the files in the Fxx folders.
00:52:39bluefoxxDerPapst: kk
00:52:48DerPapstand some other files such as the iTunesDB (all located under iPod_Control)
00:53:10DerPapstSh0rtnArm3d: 1. yes, 2 use the OF
00:53:29DerPapstor use the MpegPlayerPlugin (check the manual for this.)
00:53:31bluefoxxDerPapst: so that removes his buddy's name from there to right?
00:53:40DerPapstprobably not.
00:53:49DerPapstbut that can be fixed from windows
00:54:18DerPapstbut honestly, i don't know for sure. i know almost nothing about these newer iPods
00:54:47bluefoxx>. < i dont do windows. the only windows PC remaining in my inventory is a 98box used for games WINE spews complaints about <. <
00:54:53 Quit herrwaldo ("Konversation terminated!")
00:55:18DerPapstvisit a friend with windows then :-P
00:56:31bluefoxxDerPapst: hehe, that might work XD
01:00
01:00:14amiconnHah, finally I understand what causes the UIE problem
01:00:26amiconnUnfortunately I'm not sure about the best solution yet
01:00:59Nico_Pamiconn: may I ask what UIE means?
01:01:10Nico_P(and congratulations btw ;) )
01:01:11amiconnUnexpected Interrupt or Exception
01:01:56amiconnThe problem has nothing to do with that specific function, btw, but only with how it's referenced, and how the linker collects the needed object files
01:03:22amiconnHmm, seems the fix is even nearly trivial
01:03:25*amiconn verifies
01:03:36DerPapstamiconn: :-)
01:05:43amiconnAh, yes
01:05:55amiconnIt's definitely an internal file order problem in the linker
01:06:32amiconnThe problem is that both the Makefile specifies objects and libs on the command line, and the .lds specifies the crt0 object with INPUT()
01:07:00amiconnObviously files specified with INPUT() are *always* processed *after* all files and libs specified on the command line
01:07:06DerPapstdid you get that problem for all targets?
01:07:25amiconnSo symbols needed by crt0 *only* won't be included from libs
01:08:21amiconnThere is a simple solution though - the startup file can be specified in the .lds by using STARTUP() instead of INPUT() - that causes it to be processed before all other files, including those specified on the command line
01:09:08amiconnSo no more reference hackaround necessary
01:09:49amiconnDerPapst: Not all targets were affected by this problem, because the object(s) referenced by crt0 were already linked in by coincidence
01:10:24DerPapstheh. Impressive that his coincidence worked so long.
01:10:28DerPapst*this
01:10:35amiconnAfaik the problem exists for gigabeat S (hack in SVN), meizu, and logikdax (markun and linuxstb wanted to see it solved)
01:11:09DerPapstah
01:11:21amiconnYou can easily recreate it e.g. for PP by just putting b UIE at the very end of crt0-pp-bl.S, and then trying to compile a bootloader...
01:11:54 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
01:11:56 Quit Sh0rtnArm3d ()
01:12:35amiconnIt will fail due to the missing UIE symbol, unless you also edit boot.lds for PP and replace the INPUT() with STARTUP()
01:12:39 Quit zajacattack ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
01:16:12*DerPapst doesn't know what UIE does and better leaves crt0-pp-bl.S alone :-P
01:16:47amiconnIt's the function that is called if an exception or an unmapped interrupt occurs
01:17:23amiconnIf you put that call at the very end, it won't be called at all. Furthermore, that's just a compilation test, nothing that needs to be installed on target...
01:17:25DerPapstah. an exception handler od some sort
01:17:34DerPapst*of
01:17:48amiconnYes, that thing that displays all those data aborts, undefined instructions etc
01:17:50DerPapst:-)
01:20:02 Quit PaulJam (".")
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01:25:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:27:23amiconnhmpf
01:27:32*amiconn can't test-build a beast bootloader
01:27:45DerPapstshall i?
01:27:52amiconnNo multilibs-enabled arm-elf-gcc in my cygwin...
01:28:37DerPapsti have that multilibs-enabled arm-elf-gcc in my cygwin. If you give me a patch i can test
01:32:15amiconnhttp://pastebin.ca/1001081
01:35:11*DerPapst builds
01:35:33*amiconn also started a bunch of builds (most of his targets)
01:36:44DerPapstdoes make soetimes die for you? it sits sometimes there not doing anything for hours. I have to kill it then and start again :-/
01:37:56DerPapstworked fine and without warnings :-)
01:38:06amiconnIt only does this when trying the ctrl-C a build. Sometimes this still leaves subshells or 'make' processes running, and then a subsequent 'make' becomes very confused
01:39:05DerPapstshall i try any other bootloaders?
01:39:06amiconnBut as long as no zombies are running, 'make' never hangs for me, even when scheduling a bunch of builds in a long command line that needs ~3 hours to build or so
01:39:26amiconnThe S is the only one in SVN that uses the hack
01:39:52DerPapstah.. i have multiple cygwin shells open if i compile for multiple targets. maybe that's the problem
01:40:12amiconnHmm, it shouldn't, although I never tried that
01:40:24DerPapstfeels faster :-)
01:41:00*amiconn always uses make && make zip && cd ../2nd_target && make && make zip && cd ../3rd_target etc
01:41:35DerPapsti bet building in parallel works faster...
01:41:43amiconnI doubt that
01:41:52amiconnI would even expect it to be slower
01:42:17*DerPapst should test that when bored.
01:42:34amiconnhehe
01:43:05amiconnAnyway, compiling for the whole collection is a good job to run overnight
01:44:03DerPapstheh on cygwin for sure.
01:44:11*DerPapst should try a vm.
01:45:57 Quit sitwon ("Leaving")
01:46:23*amiconn should probably try microsoft sfu again
01:47:17 Join JdGordon|uni [0] (i=768aa356@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
01:47:27amiconnI even have linux VMs to choose from, but using them regularly for builds just feels cumbersome
01:54:20saratogablackhawk is proving harder then I'd hoped to contact
01:58:42scorche|shsaratoga: why does he need to be contacted?
01:59:32 Quit JdGordon|uni ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
02:00
02:01:26saratogai'm starting with his patch for my GSOC project
02:01:40saratogaand i'd like to ask him about the build environment hes using
02:02:09scorche|shit was different than what we use?
02:03:04DerPapstoh youre one of the lucky ones? :-)
02:03:33 Quit barrywardell ()
02:04:10*scorche|sh chooses to ignore DerPapst ;)
02:04:55DerPapst:-P
02:12:06saratogascorche|sh: i don't think so, but evidently he has to use some additional libraries to link it to the linux system running on his phone
02:12:11saratogaand i'm curious about how that works
02:12:22saratogacan probably figure it out on my own, but it'd be nice to have his input
02:13:21 Quit Rincewind ("bye")
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02:16:45 Quit amiconn (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The future of IRC")
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02:55:24saratogais the define really SCREEN_PORTAIT ?
02:55:31*midgey is playing blackjack in "spanish" on his gigabeat
02:55:42midgeyhttp://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2764/dump080428205118dd3.png
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02:57:45midgeysaratoga: looks like it... :\
02:58:10midgeydefined in /firmware/export/config.h
02:58:19saratogai'm tempted to try a global find and replace
02:59:07*midgey should start committing typo fixes to get his commit count up
02:59:28saratogago for it!
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03:00
03:07:25 Quit DerPapst (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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03:11:05JdGordon|zzzsaratoga: typo fixed
03:11:09 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (i=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
03:12:25 Quit fpletz (Remote closed the connection)
03:13:23saratogaJdGordon|zzz: i was so close to figuring out the shell script to do that
03:13:50 Join fpletz [0] (n=fpletz@franz-pletz.org)
03:13:51JdGordonhehe, simple find and replace in the text editor :)
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03:26:00***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:45:12DerPapstmidgey: nice work!
03:45:31DerPapst<−− sleep (finally)
04:00
04:07:38 Join mtrckbx [0] (n=4bafe6a4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-43ef4aa52ad96f2f)
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04:18:30mtrckbxCan anybody out there advise on hoe to use the triggered recording fuctions on an iRiver H320?
04:25:38*mtrckbx says hello
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04:29:17mtrckbxAnybody on this channel?
04:30:22krazykitthere are many people in this channel. it's just that the active ones may not know the answer. patience is requested :)
04:31:42mtrckbxok krazykit, thanks.
04:34:06mtrckbxison
04:34:44mtrckbxlusers
04:35:28mtrckbxnames #rockbox
04:35:59krazykitmtrckbx, have tried searching the manual and the forums?
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04:52:13mtrckbxusers
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05:00
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05:26:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:51:55 Quit csc` ("If you can't do anything smart, do somethin right ~Serenity")
05:52:37purpleposeidonThe font in doom is hard to read. :/
05:55:31LloreanThat would be id's fault, they probably didn't expect it to be on such small screens.
05:56:05purpleposeidonThat id. :(
06:00
06:01:55bronsojaI'm having an issue with the RBUtil on ubuntu 8.04. My player is mounted at /media/Sansa e260 and i'm able to read the file contents in the file browser, but when I try to run the complete installation it stops after printing "No Sansa found". Any ideas?
06:03:45 Quit mtrckbx ("CGI:IRC")
06:05:52Lloreanbronsoja: Are you sure it's a v1 sansa?
06:06:57bronsojaI thought so, I can double check in the settings info.
06:08:22bronsojain settings, the listed version is 01.02.18A
06:09:05bronsojaCould it be having a problem with the space in the mount path?
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06:42:33Tuplanollabronsoja: it could be the space in the mount path
06:42:34RomanianHello all.
06:42:37Tuplanollahello
06:42:47RomanianIs anybody available to help me?
06:43:04Tuplanollayes, just ask
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06:44:53RomanianWell, I've been having this problem with my iAudio X5L, started about 24 hours ago. It won't play sound. I can get it to load, everything works fine, but it won't play sound. It shows that it's playing, even at full volume, but nothing comes out of the speakers. Once every 20 loads or so, sound will play, and I will be able to change the volume for about 30 seconds. After this period has passed, I can't change the volume level. Happen
06:45:20RomanianI've formatted 5 times, reinstalled firmware, and checked my headphones.
06:46:49RomanianAlso, the distinctive fuzzy "pop" sound when I boot it is absent.
06:49:00Shaidcould be a hardware issue, something went funny inside
06:49:20Shaidlike headphone socket coming loose from the board
06:50:11RomanianNope, I've checked that.
06:50:44Shaidwhat happens in the original firmware?
06:50:50RomanianAnd if it were a hardware issue, is it possible that it plays at such odd intervals?
06:50:57RomanianI don't know; I haven't been able to re-load original firmware.
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06:56:53RomanianDamn.
06:57:00RomanianWell, how would the A3 compare to the X5L?
06:57:30bronsojaI got mine figured out. My linux inexperience showing.. when i ran rbutil with sudo, it was able to find the player.
06:57:42bronsojathanks all.
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07:00:37Lamezhi
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07:00:49RomanianAccording to the player's page, you just place the *.bin in /drive/FIRMWARE/ and plug it in. When I do that, nothing happens; it just charges. Is there something else I'm missing?
07:00:51Romanianhttp://www.cowonamerica.com/download/iaudio_x5_jsfw.html
07:01:43Lamezhoe
07:01:47Lamezhi
07:02:09RomanianHey.
07:02:14LamezI need some help with rockboy
07:02:26RomanianWhat's wrong?
07:02:46Lamezit will not play my gbc roms on my 1g Nano
07:03:14RomanianDoes it give any messages?
07:03:55Lameznope, my file do not show up, then when I change the general settings to show all files, they show up, how come they are not supported? Would this be consider a bug?
07:04:42RomanianWhat's the suffix of the file's name?
07:04:55RomanianOr... extension, or whatever it's called.
07:05:08Lamezlol ok extension, gbc and gb
07:05:26Romanianhm
07:05:28Romanianwhich version do you have?
07:05:57Lamezthe latest, I just downloaded it yesterday, I updated my old version, then I found out rockbox has its own emulator
07:06:08Romanianhuh...
07:06:11Romaniansorry, I have no idea :\
07:06:39LamezI know, I have no idea what is wrong, I think I might try downloading a fresh copy of Rockbox, and see what happens
07:06:46RomanianYeah, do that
07:07:12LamezI did wanna do what the new installer was like, it could be possiable it corrupted some files, I have no idea. Well thanks any ways
07:07:29LamezI did wanna see what the new installer was like *
07:07:57RomanianSo, nobody else has any thoughts on my problem of not being able to play sound?
07:08:09RomanianOr load the original firmware, for that matter.
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07:08:12Lamezyou can't play sound
07:08:32Lamezwhat kind of play do you have?
07:08:36Lamezplayer
07:09:18RomanianiAudio X5L
07:09:23Romanianit started about 24 hours ago
07:09:29RomanianI just can't play sound from it.
07:09:35Lamezoh, then I have no idea, I am a iPod guy
07:09:42RomanianYeah. Thanks, though.
07:09:51Lamezlol, sorry..later
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07:09:56RomanianPeace
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08:37:34DhraakellianWhat's the best way to remove a theme?
08:37:50amiconnlinuxstb__, markun: UIE() problem fixed :)
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08:51:42markunamiconn: thanks!
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08:55:51linuxstbamiconn: Congrats ;)
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09:10:48pondlifehttp://miche.aqua-gero.com/rbonly/ - I wonder if this is our code, but not GPLed...
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09:11:26pondlifeI meant "using our code"..
09:12:18pondlifeIt certainly appears to contain it
09:12:48pondlifeAlbeit a build from 2006
09:13:09B4gderso you get a bootloader that can't run rockbox! ;-)
09:13:24B4gderwell, recent ones
09:13:30pondlifehehe, but also a GPL-violating tagnavi.config?
09:14:37pondlifeHe's included the licenses.txt/copying.txt at least
09:14:40pondlifeBut no source
09:14:57B4gderhe probably just doesn't realize his obligations
09:15:02pondlifeIndeed
09:15:12pondlifeDo we have a friendly letter?
09:15:43B4gderI can't remember seeing any good template recently
09:16:00pondlifeNot that I'm particularly bothered, but it's good not to violate stuff.
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09:16:51pondlifeB4gder: Don't suppose you had time to try any other build table formats?
09:17:05B4gderno, not yet
09:17:13pondlifeJust wondering if I should read the past week's logs or not.:-)
09:19:10pondlifehttp://ipodlinux.org/User_talk:Miche seems to indicate that lack of source has been mentioned before - IF we're talking about the same person.
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09:26:36linuxstbMy main problem with that installer is that it will just confuse users
09:27:43pondlifeIndeed.
09:27:51pondlifeIt could at least link to us.
09:30:31linuxstbIt doesn't even say when it was created, and as it doesn't support the 1g-3g, I would guess it's old.
09:30:50pondlifeSeems DerPapst has already been talking to Miche's hoster - http://ipodlinux.org/User_talk:AriX
09:31:26linuxstbHmm, files dated 25 June 2006....
09:33:50JdGordondoes anyone here use the filetype colours thing?
09:34:05LloreanI have in the past and liked it.
09:34:12LloreanI just lost my color file and haven't made a new one.
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09:34:37JdGordonwanna see if fs#7887 is still a bug, and oping to not have to setup a config for it :p
09:35:12pondlifeSuggest you ask the poster for a config ?
09:35:33pondlifeheh, Nico_P's already fixing it too ;p
09:35:38LloreanJdGordon: He even mentions a sample .colors file
09:35:40pondlifeDev Fight!
09:35:53JdGordonLlorean: I noticed that after posting here... going to test it
09:35:59*Llorean thought that was fixed, though
09:36:09*JdGordon rekons it problay has been
09:36:32LloreanOh, wait. I think it was fixed, and then unfixed (due to the attempt at fixing breaking other things). And never committed.
09:37:02LloreanWhy is there no setting in the menus for setting the playlist catalog folder?
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09:37:12*Llorean really doesn't like non-theme settings being hidden in .cfg-only
09:37:44pondlifeShould be a context menu when a directory is selected?
09:37:45JdGordonseems fine
09:37:58pondlife"Store playlist catalogs here"
09:38:10JdGordonisnt that folder hard coded?
09:38:22LloreanNo
09:38:28LloreanThere's an option in the .cfg file you can set, supposedly
09:38:37LloreanAt least, so claims sdoyan. Says you added it too, if I recall.
09:39:18JdGordonwouldnt surprise me if I did :p
09:39:33LloreanSomewhere between 16181 and 16195 he said.
09:40:21JdGordon16181
09:40:24LloreanHe wants the path for saving /dynamic.m3u8 to automatically be the same as the path for your catalog. (I don't mind if you can set a default location for it to be saved, but I don't think it should be the same as your catalog, as I'd very much like to be able to continue keeping my catalog separate from my saved dynamic playlists)
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09:41:28bertrikhmmm, I love it when bugs get fixed by *removing* code
09:41:48pondlifeLess code = less bugs, always
09:41:50JdGordonusually other bugs popup though
09:41:57JdGordonpop back up though*
09:42:12pondlifeBugs are normally caused by code :)
09:42:28linuxstbDo any targets implement more than one user time?
09:42:32linuxstbs/time/timer/
09:43:54JdGordonLlorean: should I add the context menu items for it like the recording directories?
09:44:15pondlifeThat would be consistent
09:44:20LloreanJdGordon: Yeah, I think so.
09:44:43LloreanIs there some way to set the recording directory to root?
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09:44:54JdGordonI dont think there is...
09:45:04JdGordonother than manually in the .cfg
09:45:08LloreanHm
09:45:26pondlifeShould be on the "Files" context menu, I'd think.
09:45:36LloreanWell, nobody should put their playlist catalog in the root. But if the option of a configurable prefix for /dynamic.m3u8 in the save screen is added, it'd need a way to be cleared.
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09:46:29JdGordonI have no problem putting dynamic.m3u8 into the playlist catalog, and yes, it needs to be clearable
09:47:11LloreanI don't think dynamic.m3u8 should be tied to the catalog
09:47:27LloreanI have no problem with it having a configurable prefix that can be set to /playlists, but I don't think the two should be forcibly bound.
09:47:39LloreanSince that removes the possibility of duplicating what is the current behaviour.
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09:47:55JdGordondoes the PC do anything more than just store the files?
09:48:12JdGordonits not like it can be used to randomly choose a playlist like dirplay can
09:48:29LloreanThe PC can also be used for quickly inserting playing songs into any of a list of playlists.
09:48:48JdGordonso why wouldnt the dynamic one fit there?
09:48:58LloreanI think you're missing the point.
09:49:10JdGordonpondlife: sticking the option there would only be usable with a nasty hack...
09:49:17LloreanRight now when you try to save the dynamic one, the default path is "/dynamic.m3u8"
09:49:34LloreanHe wants to change the default path to "<wherever your catalog is>/dynamic.m3u8"
09:49:48JdGordonyeah, ok... so whats the problem?
09:49:57pondlifeJdGordon: A dedicated context menu isn't necessarily a nasty hack.
09:50:06LloreanMeaning that for those of us who *don't* save our playlist into the catalog folder (I keep my normal playlists in various parts of the file tree) but rather use the catalog for various types of "Favorites" lists (playlists I modify as I listen)
09:50:16Lloreanwe have to clear that chunk out of the path every single time.
09:50:29pondlifeAlthough you'd proabably have to have "File View" as a sub-option
09:50:36LloreanWhy not just have a second option "Set as default playlist save folder"
09:50:58JdGordonpondlife: well I was thining add it to the existing menu unless you got there through the settings menu
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09:51:13pondlifeJdGordon: Now that *would* be a nasty hack
09:51:38pondlifeWe need more consistency in our context menus, not less...
09:51:45JdGordonLlorean: I dont think thats the usual use case though... wouldnt you want to store the dynamic playlist with the rest of them?
09:51:59JdGordonpondlife: it would go in there always, but would be very confusing imo
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09:52:13pondlifeWhy not allow the "Files" context menu to be the same as for any directory, plus add "File View"?
09:52:26pondlifeReferring to the root, of course.
09:52:55LloreanJdGordon: For me, absolutely not. I want my playlist catalog just to have a few mixed playlists. My dynamic playlist, on the other hand, almost always goes in a rather deep subdirectory and is a result of me reorganizing files with bad names so they play in the right order.
09:52:58pondlife(i.e. no Rename/Delete)
09:53:13LloreanJdGordon: Why is having a second option a *bad* idea for this, exactly?
09:53:51pondlifeIs it possible to currently create a directory in the root?
09:53:59JdGordonI'm not saying it is...
09:54:05JdGordonpondlife: yes
09:54:22LloreanJdGordon: Well not having a second option makes people who actually *like* the current behaviour have a harder time.
09:54:24JdGordonand I'm not sure how many of the regular context menu items should be shown
09:54:54pondlifeAh..Create Dir in a context menu doesn't act how I'd expect.
09:54:55LloreanIt's basically shoving one group's problem onto another group, whereas a second option means both groups can be happy.
09:55:06pondlifeIt creates alongside the selected dir, not within it.
09:55:14JdGordonpondlife: yeah
09:55:30Lloreanpondlife: Isn't the option available on files too?
09:55:42JdGordonit is a valid point though that you cant set / as a rec folder
09:55:47pondlifeYes, but I wasn't expecting that
09:55:52JdGordonor do some of the playlist stuff on the folder
09:55:57pondlifeNot a biggie, just less intuitive
09:56:02pondlife(IMHO)
09:56:17LloreanMaybe you should be able to scroll up to the Folder Name at the top, and put those kinds of things in its context menu? :-P
09:56:48JdGordonno, that wouldnt work
09:58:15*JdGordon inclined to say "leave this for the devcon" :)
09:58:57LloreanWell it'd fall under "UI consistency improvements"
09:59:02LloreanWhich is fast rising up the list of major concerns
09:59:13pondlifeaka - the end of onplay.c ;)
09:59:22JdGordonhear hear!
09:59:30pondlifeYou guys are lucky I can't make devcon, I suspect... :)
09:59:56*JdGordon would love to be in the room when a dozen geeks sit around the table with a cutout of every setting and menu and try to order it to something usable :)
10:00
10:00:02pondlifeInconsistency gets my OCD twitching
10:00:10LloreanJdGordon: I have a printout of all of them, for all targets, as of about 6 months back.
10:00:25pondlifeI think MarcGuay's layout on the wiki is good
10:00:49Lloreanpondlife: Which page is this?
10:01:02pondlifehttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/MenuLayoutDiscussion
10:01:12pondlifeIt's better than what we have now, anyway.
10:01:23pondlifeScroll to the bottom
10:01:50pondlifeMarc has a good eye for detail
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10:02:28LloreanHm
10:02:28pondlifeThe settings top level is a bit controversial, but sensible enough
10:03:04LloreanReplaygain isn't a "Sound" setting, since it's entirely dependent on the presence of metadata.
10:03:05pondlifeCurrently I tend to just ignore the top menu and go straight into General Settings most of the time
10:03:16pondlifeIt affects what you hear though
10:03:26LloreanNot necessarily
10:03:34LloreanIt affects if we interpret a certain tag during playback.
10:03:51LloreanIt won't affect other sounds at all (for example mpegplayer, radio, untagged recordings, etc)
10:04:15pondlifeDoes dithering affect the radio?
10:04:21LinusNno
10:04:26LloreanDithering only affects digital audio, right?
10:04:40pondlifeSo that's not a sound setting either... ;p
10:04:52JdGordonboth should go under playback?
10:04:56pondlifeNo
10:04:58LloreanIn my opinion, yes.
10:05:01pondlifeI prefer both under Sound
10:05:10pondlifeBut, hey, that's just my preference
10:05:13LloreanThey don't affect "sound output" but rather "digital playback"
10:05:19JdGordonXML MENUS!!
10:05:27pondlifeSame as stereo width ?
10:05:34pondlifeCrossfeed too.
10:05:48JdGordonthey do affect the sound though...
10:05:49pondlifeUsers think of those as affecting sound output
10:06:11pondlifei.e. there's no need to get technical on the playback/sound distinction.
10:06:16LloreanThere needs to be a distinction between ones that affect "all sounds", ones that affect "files played back" and settings that actually affect *how* we play back files
10:06:24pondlifeWhy?
10:06:36LloreanSo people don't report bugs on things not working when they're not supposed to work?
10:06:54LloreanIf something is intentionally not going to work in a certain case, it should be clear to users that it's not going to work in that case.
10:07:14JdGordonin that case... I tihnk shuffle, repeat, nextdir and party mode should go into playlists
10:07:15pixelmaLlorean: setting the recording directory would be "clear recording directory" which is in the recording settings, root was made the default for this case
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10:07:28pondlifeHas anyone reported a bug that dithering doesn't affect their radio? ;)
10:07:30LloreanJdGordon: Yes.
10:07:31pixelmasetting it to root, of course
10:07:48*pondlife jokes as he has cardboard ears.
10:07:57Lloreanpondlife: Crossfeed would be more likely for someone to spot, I think
10:08:03pondlifeAnd poor FM reception..
10:08:13LloreanJdGordon: And auto-change directory.
10:08:21JdGordonthat was next dir
10:08:33pondlifeTrue, but I don't think there's a need to make a technical distinction here - better to make options easy to find
10:08:46*Llorean disagrees.
10:08:47pondlifeIf I were looking for Replaygain, I'd go into Sound Settings
10:09:15LloreanPeople can look in the manual if they can't find something.
10:09:22JdGordonsound - stuff that generally affects the output, playback - stuff which forcibly changes the output (?), playlists - the rest?
10:09:26LloreanThey won't know to look in the manual if they assume something should work, and it seems to have no effect.
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10:09:37pondlifeIf they have to look in the manual, then the design is too technical
10:10:05pondlifeThe underlying code and design must be strict, but the UI should be easy
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10:10:16JdGordonnot really sure how cuesheet and last.fm fits in that description though
10:10:18LloreanThe UI should be easy, but not at the cost of misleading the user.
10:10:43pondlifeHence this is a matter for a devcon - it's ultimately our opinions
10:10:44JdGordonhmm.. maybe they should both be in playlists also?
10:10:55LloreanI think if you put "Bass" and "Crossfeed" next to each other in the menu, the user will expect both to work under identical conditions
10:11:31pondlifeThey don't. But they currently are alongside each other.
10:11:35LloreanIndeed
10:11:36pondlifeI don't hear a bug report
10:11:45pondlifeSo, I don't think many users have been misled.
10:11:48LloreanAnd I'd been on a working assumption that Crossfeed should work on all audio because I'd never stopped to think about it.
10:12:04Lloreanpondlife: What is this: "It's okay if we mislead them as long as they don't complain about it?"
10:12:26pondlifeNo, more like "The layout of the menu is not misleading."
10:12:37LloreanAre you saying it's obvious from the menu crossfeed won't affect the radio?
10:12:38pondlifeYou are reading it too technically
10:12:47pondlifeNo, but that's the sort of thing the manual should cover
10:12:57LloreanI thought they shouldn't need the manual..
10:13:03pondlifeThe menu is about finding things, not techy stuff
10:13:21pondlifeThey can if they want the details, but they shouldn't care that much
10:13:22LloreanAnd people still find replaygain just fine under playback already
10:13:44pondlifeI'm not particularly fussed. you can move it to Playback if you want, it's a wiki
10:14:11pondlifeBut given the choice Playback or Sound, I think of Replaygain as Sound
10:14:24pondlifeJust how my inexact human brain is wired I guess
10:14:27LloreanBut it doesn't affect all sound.
10:14:30LloreanNot even remotely
10:14:37pondlifeI don't give a flying one
10:15:15LloreanPart of a UI's purpose is to convey information to improve the user experience.
10:15:16pondlifeLike I said, change it if you want
10:15:27LloreanOn their first try they *might* have to spend a couple seconds looking to find replaygain.
10:15:41LloreanBut it's also quite possible they learn that its somewhere else, so it doesn't work like Bass
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10:16:10pondlifeOK, so we move all the dsp stuff (digital audio only) into Playback?
10:16:26LloreanHaven't got that far yet.
10:16:40LloreanSince a lot of the playback stuff, as JdGordon mentioned, could really be playlist stuff.
10:17:13LloreanWe could leave the "Playback" menu, and Sound could have under it "Digital Audio" with the DSP stuff?
10:17:23pondlifeI agree with that - certainly the auto-change dir, repeat and shuffle stuff should be playlist
10:17:35LloreanThen it's in the more obvious "Sound" location, but in a submenu that makes it clear it's only for digital audio.
10:17:54LloreanThat also keeps our sound menu from being too long.
10:18:18pondlifeI agree
10:18:36pondlifeThe danger is that we end up with deep menus again - I'd prefer long over deep.
10:18:39JdGordonwe dont want menus to go too deep also...
10:18:51markunwill the bass and treble options be in different places on players with hw tone controls and the ones using software?
10:19:05pondlifeThey shouldn't be.
10:19:39markunwell, the hw controls also work on radio, the sw controls don't
10:19:45JdGordonmarkun: the distinction was more which things affect only the digital audio.. not wheather its hardware r software controlled
10:20:07*JdGordon slow tonight
10:20:07pondlifeLike I said, this is about humans, not technical details
10:20:10Lloreanpondlife: I don't think deep menus are a bad things, as long as the deeper options tend toward "set once and forget" like replaygain, dithering, crossfeed, etc.
10:20:24pondlifeLlorean: You may set once, others may not
10:20:43LloreanYou don't set them more than once per playlist, though.
10:20:44pondlifeI change stuff with .cfg files mainly, but certainly change crossfeed often
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10:21:11pondlifeEither way, one of our current menu problems is too much depth, IMHO
10:21:16Lloreanthe whole point of crossfeed, arguably, is that it shouldn't be changed unless you change output hardware.
10:21:36pondlifeYes, switching from car to headphones, in my case
10:21:57LloreanIn which case you're not really changing but moving between two presets, which is perfect for .cfgs
10:22:05pondlifeIndeed
10:22:11markunLlorean: also for binaural recordings
10:22:15LloreanI really mean "thinks you're more likely to adjust often, and to a variety of values should be as shallow as possible"
10:22:37Lloreanmarkun: binaural recordings should be preprocessed. :-P
10:22:41Llorean*things
10:22:46pondlifeBeatles stuff too...
10:23:29markunLlorean: are we talking about the same thing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording
10:23:32LloreanBut I think the real problem isn't "deep menus" as much as just poor positioning of things in general
10:23:45LloreanSubmenus increase the button press cost by 1 for items within them.
10:24:04Lloreanmarkun: Not in the slightest. Apparently my head is not functioning today
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10:24:13pondlifeYes, but you can't see them until you go in... so searching can be slower.
10:24:27Lloreanpondlife: I think the real problem is that the main "categories" aren't obvious enough for what's in them, and often the submenus themselves don't have obvious enough names.
10:24:32pondlifeYes
10:24:45pondlife"General Settings" anyone? :/
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10:24:54LloreanSo a "Digital Audio" submenu, no matter how deep, wouldn't be bad as long as the chain of prior menus were all obvious enough
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10:25:17pondlifeI don't think it's necessary to separate out Digital Audio
10:25:27pondlifeTechnical, not human
10:25:37LloreanHumans make stupid assumptions.
10:25:41pondlifeYes
10:25:43LloreanAct to decrease that likelihood.
10:25:50pondlifeNo, let them be human
10:25:55LloreanWhy?
10:26:17pondlifeBecause it'll make the UI easier to use. You can change the UI, not the user
10:26:46LloreanHow is "A long list of sound settings that may confuse the user by seeming to arbitrarily not work when they should" easier to use than "A list of sound settings with a subcategory Digital Audio"?
10:26:46pondlifeThis is about easy, not educational
10:26:49LloreanWhat is "easier"?
10:26:52JdGordonthere is also an assumption that our users arnt that stupid...
10:26:53LloreanWhy is it "easier"
10:26:56LloreanThey're both a list of settings.
10:26:57JdGordonwe dont have to dumb down everything
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10:27:36pondlifeI don't think it's dumbing down, but to me "Digital Audio" is (a) irrelevant and (b) "this is a DAP, so it does Digital Audio"
10:27:46pondlifei.e. I don't think "not radio"
10:27:47JdGordonlong lists are harder to process because the brain doesnt handle more than 7-8 things well
10:27:55pondlife7 is about right
10:27:59Lloreanpondlife: so DSP then?
10:28:11pondlifeBetter, but you've just put a TLA in
10:28:12JdGordonpondlife: 100% on that point though
10:28:12LloreanHow is it "irrelevant"?
10:28:21pondlifeIt's just sound
10:28:28LloreanNo, it's not "just sound"
10:28:34LloreanIf it were "just sound" it's work on all sound.
10:28:43pondlifeI mean, from a user's perspective - they don't care if ir's digital or analogue
10:28:46pondlifeit's
10:28:50JdGordonit is.. anything coming out of the headphone jack is "digital audio" as far as most users understand
10:29:00pondlifeThey really don't care, they just want to sort out the volume
10:29:15LloreanYes, and if a user then encounters things in Digital Audio NOT working, they might just ask "why did they make a distinction" rather than simply filing a bug report
10:29:24LloreanThe whole point is to MAKE some of them care.
10:29:32JdGordonyou cant change users!
10:29:37LloreanThe fact that a bug report on this hasn't been filed yet just means that we have a small user base.
10:29:49LloreanJdGordon: You can't change users, but you CAN choose not to intentionally hide information from them
10:29:58pondlifeThey might equally well start reporting bugs where none exist, and still not think or get the distinction.
10:30:01LloreanIntelligent users, of which there are plenty, will still get things wrong if they aren't provide with any clues at all
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10:30:18pondlifeAnyway, like I said - update the wiki if you can improve it.
10:30:22Lloreanpondlife: So your point of view is "you can't prevent ALL bug reports, so take no action to reduce the number"
10:30:29pondlifeNo, don't be silly
10:30:39pondlifeI'm not arguing with you again.
10:30:41LloreanYou said "They still might not get the distinction"
10:30:48JdGordonis there a nicer term for post-proccessing we could use?
10:30:54pondlifeThey might or might not
10:30:59LloreanIndeed
10:31:04LinusNAudio Processing
10:31:05pondlifeI doubt mrs pondlife would
10:31:12LloreanAnd do you agree that putting them in a category is a clue that will improve the odds of SOME users getting it?
10:31:14pondlifeShe's my target user
10:31:15LloreanBy providing more information?
10:31:18JdGordondinner... bbl
10:31:42pondlifeUsers don't generally care, they just want to find things
10:31:52pondlifeWe do, because we are technically minded
10:32:30pondlifeBut that doesn't make for a good UI for the non-computer-literate (the ultimate test case for a UI)
10:32:40Llorean1) We don't make it for the users first. 2) Plenty of them would catch the distinction. 3) Those who "don't care" won't care that there's one more submenu anyway
10:32:54LloreanI refuse to accept that we're designing Rockbox for the computer illiterate.
10:32:58LloreanIf we were, 95% of it should be gone.
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10:33:29pondlife(1) I agree, but that's no excuse for bad UI (2) True (3) They might not look in the submenu and miss something useful
10:33:47LloreanHow is "Distinguishing options that don't work the same" bad UI?
10:33:49pondlifeBut, as I said 20 times now, I don't care that much - so go and update the wiki.
10:33:50pondlifeBye
10:34:08pondlifeYou win again, I have to work
10:34:19*Llorean hates the idea of intentionally hiding useful information, just because "some users won't care about it"
10:35:13*gevaerts doesn;t think post-proccessing is useful, since he can't hear the difference anyway
10:35:23*gevaerts runs away, after replacing a ; by a '
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10:57:33pixelmaLlorean: menu depth is also a problem, because the submenu isn't always 1 "click" away if you have to move up/down a list before and have to remember the name of the next submenu (or be able to find it easily) - a good example is probably the "Theme Settings" submenu vs. "General Settings > Display" (which is also a problem of old habits).
10:58:13pixelmaAnother example: sometimes it bothers me that I need to enter submenu after submenu on my Ondio if I just want to change shuffle or repeat mode and start thinking "when will I be at the right place?"
10:58:35Lloreanpixelma: True, *but* the options the submenu represents would also have to be that far down in the list too, anyway...
10:58:59pixelmaI'm not saying it's bad in general to establish some categories but it needs to be well balanced - which is a *hard* thing to do (I know)
10:59:05LloreanI agree with that
10:59:39LloreanI was in the process of typing more or less the same idea
11:00
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11:06:20B4gderdo you prefer a tshirt or a polo shirt?
11:06:51*DerPapst votes for t-shirt
11:07:22*Llorean rather likes polo shirts
11:07:52*gevaerts wants both :)
11:07:54*pixelma would prefer a polo shirt a bit
11:08:05LloreanIn my limited observation I get treated better at restaurants wearing the shirt from two years back than when wearing the shirt from last year. I think it makes me look like I have money to leave better tips.
11:08:10Llorean:-P
11:08:24B4gderhaha
11:09:03B4gderpolo shirts are more expensive in general but I'm probably not going for the coffee mugs this year so we could spend some more on the shirts
11:09:49B4gder(it's not really a fixed limit, just what we feel spending on this)
11:10:03LloreanI figured, considering recent income boosts. ;)
11:10:28B4gderwell, the shirts are sponsored by Haxx
11:10:33LloreanAh
11:10:50B4gderthe fund will be used to pay participants that go to devcon
11:11:00B4gderat least a little sponsorship
11:11:35B4gderwe did 100 euro/person last year but we've discussed a more advanced distribution this year
11:12:32B4gdersince some people won't even pay 100 euro to get there ;-)
11:13:50LloreanYeah, a small amount of weighting probably wouldn't hurt
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11:14:48B4gderI think I'll come up with something
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11:26:36YAVIHI
11:27:24YAVIOne question, anyone has found how to increase the ipod volume when using it on a dock?
11:27:49*GodEater used the volume controls on the dock
11:27:55GodEaterthis appeared to work nicely
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11:28:27YAVIno, not on mine
11:28:47YAVIon the dock the volume does not do anything
11:29:01YAVIit has a line level, but cannot be changed
11:29:11LloreanDoes the dock itself have volume controls?
11:29:29YAVIyes, but only by remote
11:29:41YAVIand it does not work when it is with rockbox
11:30:06YAVIjust in the apple software
11:30:11LloreanWell then there's really nothing you can do right now.
11:30:43YAVIahamm
11:31:14GodEaterI was surprised when it worked for mine actually, I didn't realise quite how simple some docks were. Pleasantly surprised ;)
11:31:35LloreanIt's strange, though. The iPod outputs at line level, so any volume adjustment *any* dock does *should* just be between the dock and its controls.
11:31:50LloreanUnless somehow the volume adjustment is communicated to the iPod and then back down to the dock.
11:31:58GodEaterdon't think so
11:32:01LloreanGodEater: Have you tried, in AppleOS, adjusting the volume on the dock using the scroll wheel?
11:32:10YAVIGodEater: may be right
11:32:17GodEaterLlorean: not possible, I have no music accesible in AppleOS
11:32:21LloreanAh
11:32:22YAVIsome docks can modify the line volume
11:32:26LloreanIt would be *really* strange anyway
11:32:31GodEateryes
11:32:32YAVInot the ipod volume
11:32:45GodEaterYAVI: why is that a good idea ?
11:32:51YAVIit s like a pre-amp
11:33:03*GodEater can't see the point
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11:33:29YAVII don't get you GodEater
11:33:37YAVIwhat did you say is a good idea?
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11:33:49LloreanThe whole point of a line-out is to be at line level for something else to amplify it.
11:33:54GodEaterexactly
11:34:34YAVIbut the problem is that the ipod has a line level lower than other things such as cds etc
11:34:52*GodEater backs out of the conversation slowly
11:35:07YAVIthe idea in some docks is to preamlify the ipod line to be the same as the rest of inputs of your amplifier
11:35:29LloreanYAVI: Rockbox doesn't run on the dock.
11:35:41GodEaterI still don't see what that has to do with the volume on the ipod
11:35:54LloreanIf the dock has an amp in it, it should be irrelevant what firmware is on the iPod, since the iPod still outputs *to* the dock at line level.
11:36:36YAVILlorean: the problem is that my dock does not amp the line level, so I can do nothing about it
11:36:49GodEaterthen I would suggest your dock is not doing what it should
11:36:50LloreanYAVI: If your dock has volume controls, it *should*
11:36:52YAVIthe one of GodEater may have it and he can manage it
11:37:07LloreanThe iPod volume does not adjust the line out from the dock connector.
11:37:51YAVILlorean: that is true, what I mean is that some docks amplify the line level not the ipod volume
11:38:11LloreanI don't understand what you're asking then.
11:38:16GodEaternor me
11:38:20YAVIthat is to say it does it itself, it does not modify the ipod volume itself
11:38:38YAVIand mine does not do it :(
11:38:52YAVIso i can´t change the volume but from the amplifier
11:38:56LloreanWhat you have is (iPod at line level) -> (dock, which may do stuff). In both Rockbox and AppleOS the iPod is at line level.
11:39:04YAVIand the line level is lower than from the cd
11:39:15GodEaterI don't see what that has to do with anything
11:39:24YAVIyeah Llorean
11:39:32LloreanSo what does this have to do with Rockbox?
11:39:34YAVIwhat I wanted to know
11:39:54YAVIwas if somehow line level could be modified
11:40:05LloreanIt will cause clipping
11:40:11LloreanThe line level is at 0dB, it really is a "line level"
11:40:29YAVIbut not the same as other devices
11:40:49YAVII do not know much about electric matters
11:41:04LloreanThe other devices you have may be pre-amping.
11:41:13YAVIbut I think others are at 1v and this one is something like 0.7v?¿
11:41:50LloreanThis doesn't remove the fact that you will encounter clipping if you try to increase the output gain on the line out.
11:42:09YAVIaham
11:42:24YAVIso it is a hardware "problem"
11:42:47YAVIthat If I could modify by software would cause clipping?
11:43:12*GodEater would suggest just buying a better dock
11:43:35YAVIit is not a really big problem anyway
11:43:44YAVIit is just that if i forgget about it
11:43:51YAVIand play a cd for example
11:44:04YAVIand forget to modify the volume at the amp
11:44:12YAVIit would be too high
11:44:26YAVIits about 1/3 slower than in other devices
11:44:31gevaertsYAVI: please try to write entire sentences on a line
11:44:35YAVIsorry lower
11:44:59YAVIOk gevaerts sorry :(
11:46:19YAVIGodEater: , and can you use your remote from the dock to change the songs, etc using rockbox?
11:47:21LloreanNo, Rockbox can't yet properly communicate with the dock.
11:47:56YAVIaham, so you are working with it?
11:48:33LloreanNot much work is being done in that area, though there has been a small start.
11:48:45YAVIgood to know
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12:18:35GodEaterthe dock I was using: a) wasn't mine, and b) didn't have a remote
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12:33:35soapChronon, in regards to http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=16653.0
12:34:05soapI don't have time, I'm out the door - might want to mention the fact accessory power is now turned off by default and yadda yadda yadda
12:34:12soap(if you don't mind)
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13:16:12Nico_Pbertrik: your ata_disk_is_active sim stub looks fine to me
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13:31:22bertrikNico_P: not too complicated? I could have just let it always return true or false
13:32:39bertrikbut not it returns true on the first call and false on the rest, to vary it a bit and possibly make other code that depends on it touch some different paths
13:32:55bertriknot->now
13:42:23amiconnata_:disk_is_active should go away
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13:44:30JdGordon_yes and no
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13:45:12JdGordon_it cant go away while there are things using the callnack to signal other threads
13:45:55JdGordon_unless we add a keep_disk_active() count like boost does?
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13:46:42amiconn?
13:47:11amiconnata_disk_is_active is polled by some stuff which should really be converted to using the callback
13:47:43amiconnStuff polling ata_disk_is_active often fails on flash targets
13:48:40JdGordonyes, but playback (not actually sure if its still doing this) tells its thread to rebuffer in the callback, but the buffering doesnt happen untill the playback thread is active again and by then it may not be spinning still
13:48:54JdGordonit is abused alot though
13:48:56B4gderbut providing a sim version instead of #ifdefs is generally a good idea!
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13:50:16amiconnB4gder: I agree, if it's something that's supposed to stay. However, for something that's supposed to go away it's just wasted time imho
13:50:25B4gdertrue
13:50:38B4gderbut that assumes someone is going to fix the problem in the near future
13:50:50*JdGordon has nothing better to do :p
13:52:23JdGordonthere does need to be some way to stop the disk from spining down if its removed though...
13:54:37JdGordonplaylist.c is the only core apps/ code using it except recorder/peakmeter and recording (both only once, and I'm not sure howd you'd remove it from there)
13:55:36JdGordonits probably fine to keep in firmware/
13:55:59amiconnThere is. ata_disk_is_active() has nothing to do with that, it's a monitor
13:56:11amiconnThe function to keep the disk spinning is ata_spin()
13:57:03JdGordonyou cant guarentee the thread you want to run will happen before the next spindown...
13:57:14JdGordonalthough, I guess it would keep calling spin and eventually work itself out
13:58:28JdGordonthe main thing is battery_bench is misusing the call...
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14:04:28JdGordonwell, I've removed the call from playlist.c, not really how how to make sure it does stkov ata though
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14:16:32JdGordonamiconn: http://pastebin.ca/1001695 but only have my e200 so dunno how to test it properly
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14:25:14linuxstbB4gder, markun: I don't know if he's mentioned it, but gevaerts noticed that the USB controllers in the S5L8700X (Meizu), TCC77x (DAX, Sansa M200) and TCC780x (D2) are all identical.
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14:25:42B4gderwow
14:26:08gevaertsSo this gives us a major problem : what name should the driver get ?
14:27:07*linuxstb thinks that B4gder, as the only person owning two different chips is the ideal person to write this driver ;)
14:27:16B4gderhaha
14:27:24JdGordonwe should be so lucky if the only problem is the filename :p
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14:28:15bertrikthey're probably all base on the same USB controller hardware design, so use the name of the hardware design (if there is one)
14:28:40linuxstbbertrik: Which is what? ;)
14:29:34gevaertsJdGordon: it's probably not the only problem, but it's impossible to write code without deciding on a filename ;)
14:30:18pondlifeCould we perhaps configure Flyspray to default the Severity to Low, rather than NULL (or whatever it is)..?
14:30:33*bertrik googles for a name
14:30:47pondlifeI guess the problem is that normal users don't have permission to set Severity.
14:31:20LloreanThat's intentional
14:31:31pondlifeYes, but the corrupt display isn't, surely.
14:31:46PaulJamJdGordon: you closed FS #7887. but i can still reproduce it here in the uisim (r17290). the reproduction changes a little bit, because the default theme now uses a backdrop and 4
14:32:01pondlifeE.g. http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8913
14:32:19PaulJam... a gradient lineselector.
14:32:19JdGordonPaulJam: and 4 ?
14:32:28pondlife(and "Notice: Undefined index: 0 in /usr/share/flyspray/htdocs/includes/class.flyspray.php on line 344")
14:33:07LloreanI don't have a corrupt display, but I do see that notice.
14:33:17JdGordonPaulJam: ah nuts, sorry, missread the report, ill reopen it
14:33:18LloreanI've only been seeing that recently though
14:33:29pondlifeSince the last upgrade, I suspect
14:33:48pondlifeThe corrupt display here is at the Comments/Related Tasks tab.
14:33:49LloreanBut I don't see changing the default severity as really being a fix.
14:33:57pondlifeWhy not default to Low ?
14:34:02LloreanNo corruption here.
14:34:07pondlifeIt's currently defaulting to something invalid
14:34:38LloreanIt'd be nice if there was an actual "unset" value.
14:34:41pondlifeAt least set up a value for "Unknown" and use that
14:34:43pondlife:)
14:35:04LloreanI don't like "low" personally because that's actually setting a value to it before anyone's looked at it.
14:35:36pondlifeTrue. not that we use severity. And the other fields have defaults too.
14:35:54LloreanWe use severity from time to time.
14:36:05pondlifeYes, each release mainly ;)
14:36:19bertrikgevaerts: do you have a datasheet or register description for the USB controller in those players?
14:36:34Lloreanpondlife: Well, it's still better than seeing "Critical" feature requests from users.
14:36:36JdGordonif(!j % 100 && !j) will never be true will it?
14:36:44Lloreanpondlife: But I think Zagor is the only person who can fix it.
14:36:56gevaertsbertrik: google for TCC77X.pdf
14:37:03JdGordonthat is with j incrementing and always positive...
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14:45:18mtrckbxCan anybody on the channel help with this issue? I have recently loaded rockbox on six H320s. All went well except for one of them. When I turn this unit on I see the rockbox boot information then the Rockbox splashscreen briefly, then the unit goes dark. When I first loaded rockbox onto this unit I had better success and I have a feeling that I may have somehow set the backlight option to OFF. Could this be the
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14:46:19LambdaCalculus37mtrckbx: You cut off.
14:46:30LambdaCalculus37Does bootloader USB mode work, at least?
14:47:07n1smtrckbx: if you hold down REC while booting the settings will reset
14:47:07mtrckbxYes, bootloader USB works, although I do not know what that mode does.
14:47:26LambdaCalculus37It allows you to access the hard drive in case something goes wrong.
14:49:13 Quit aliask ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 3.0b5/2008041514]")
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14:51:54*JdGordon doesnt see a clean way to make batt_bench use ata notify :/
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14:55:31mtrckbxLambdaCalculus3 and n1s, I can boot to the iRiver firmware using the (hold down REC mode), but this does not allow me to boot the rockbox firmware. Lambda, what is your advice using the USB bootloader?
14:55:40JdGordonif(!j % 100 && !j) should be if(!j % 100 && j) shouldnt it?
14:56:04JdGordonbattaery_bench.c:326
14:56:09n1smtrckbx: then you are holding down rec too early, try pressing it right before you see the splash
14:56:29PaulJammtrckbx: in usb mode you can edit the file .rockbox/config.cfg and remove the line with the backlight setting
14:56:49*LambdaCalculus37 was just about to say that, too :)
14:58:15mtrckbxThnaks LambdaCal,n1s,PaulJam, that did it. I was holding down REC at the wrong time.
14:58:58LambdaCalculus37mtrckbx: Enjoy the irivers! :)
15:00
15:00:49mtrckbxThanks, I have six for a scietific study so I may not get to use them for fun. But I am beginning to think I might get might own at some point.
15:01:57*LambdaCalculus37 wishes he had six H320s
15:02:36JdGordonthink of the tower you could make!
15:04:07 Quit mtrckbx ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
15:04:17LambdaCalculus37:)
15:04:20*JdGordon is now convinced that line is rotten
15:08:20JdGordonalthough.. it has to work or it infinite loops?!
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15:21:07markunlinuxstb: nice found about the shared USB code!
15:21:24markunah, that was gevaerts :)
15:26:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:29:29linuxstbmarkun: What's the status of your Meizu work?
15:31:39markunlinuxstb: I wrote a test-firmware but it the meizu refuzes to flash it
15:31:47markunwill try to find out why tomorrow
15:31:59linuxstbSo you haven't run any code yet?
15:32:04markunnope
15:32:47markunwhat's the status of the other players with the same USB controller?
15:33:21markuncould someone start adapting the USB driver for one of them?
15:35:40gevaertsmarkun: I plan to have a go at a driver somewhere this week
15:36:49markungevaerts: do you have any of those players besides the meizu?
15:37:35gevaertsmarkun: no. I'm counting on you to be able to test the driver soon ;)
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15:44:42preglowgevaerts: what targets do you have these days?
15:46:04gevaertspreglow: h320, f20, ipod5g, c250, m6, soon h120 and f60
15:47:14LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Get a Gigabeast and you'll be unstoppable! :)
15:47:14markunand when did you start to run rockbox?
15:48:16gevaertsmarkun: 2008-01-05
15:48:23markun:)
15:49:12GodEaterthe bug has bitten him *hard*
15:49:28LambdaCalculus37*Very* hard.
15:49:41preglowgevaerts: not bad :P
15:49:59*preglow likes his h120
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15:55:53*markun hasn't used his h120 in ages
15:58:03*gevaerts asked his first question on #rockbox on january 7th
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16:05:03 Part LinusN
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16:08:43preglowmy h120 still is the player i use the most
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16:26:57MaCkenzIehello
16:27:28LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Question... ever take a look at the Sansa e100 series?
16:27:59LambdaCalculus37They look a bit similar to the m200 series, except that the body layout is more squared off, and it has an SD expansion slot.
16:28:00MaCkenzIecan i ask something about rockbox?
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16:28:12LambdaCalculus37MaCkenzIe: Yes.
16:28:31MaCkenzIeif i install it on my ipod
16:28:39MaCkenzIeall songs will delete
16:28:41MaCkenzIe?
16:28:46Llorean_Webamiconn (and Bagder / B4gder perhaps): Around what time should I aim to arrive, if flights are flexible enough?
16:28:53LambdaCalculus37MaCkenzIe: First question: Which iPod model?
16:29:02MaCkenzIe5.5g
16:29:17LambdaCalculus37Plastic front?
16:29:25MaCkenzIeyes...
16:29:45LambdaCalculus37Okay, just making sure. Lots of people are confusing the iPod video with the iPod Classic.
16:29:53LambdaCalculus37Anyway, no, your songs will not be deleted.
16:30:15LambdaCalculus37But any songs purchased from iTunes won't work due to DRM.
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16:30:29gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: don't forget the HFS/FAT issue
16:30:35MaCkenzIeif i change my mind can i uninstall rockbox to its previous original firmware?
16:30:40preglowhas any work been done on the austriamicrosystems socs?
16:30:55GodEaterMaCkenzIe: you can, but you can also dual boot when you've installed Rockbox, so there's not much reason to uninstall it
16:31:01 Quit Llorean_Web (Client Quit)
16:31:19MaCkenzIedual boot ?
16:31:29GodEaterstart either the original firmware, or rockbox
16:31:32GodEaterat the flick of a switch
16:31:33MaCkenzIehave both firmwares
16:31:51GodEatercorrect
16:31:51MaCkenzIeyes
16:32:14MaCkenzIei must do sth in order t do this?
16:32:16GodEaterdo you use your ipod from a PC, or a Mac ?
16:32:25MaCkenzIewindows
16:32:29GodEaterthat's good then
16:32:55GodEaterin order to use the Apple firmware when you've installed Rockbox, you just flick the hold switch when you turn the ipod on
16:32:57GodEaterit's very simple
16:33:37MaCkenzIei will install rockbox as the manual in tha site & it will work in dual mode..?
16:33:42GodEateryes
16:35:06MaCkenzIei turn the hold swith before the rockbox install..?
16:35:41 Quit EspeonEefi ("さよなら")
16:36:32GodEaterno - leave it alone during the install
16:37:59LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Of course. :)
16:38:22MaCkenzIeif i want to return my ipod in original (with not rockbox & with all the songs-playlists.... that i have now ) what can i do?
16:44:20GodEaterthere are uninstall instructions in the manual too
16:44:51MaCkenzIeok
16:45:15MaCkenzIethanks for the help
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16:58:09saratogapreglow: theres a patch for the AS SOC on file spray, but i don't know how useful it is
16:59:07LambdaCalculus37saratoga: What's the FS #?
16:59:15*LambdaCalculus37 remembers coming across it but forgot
16:59:59saratogahttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8843
17:00
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17:03:34*LambdaCalculus37 looks through the patch
17:04:18LambdaCalculus37It's against a slightly older SVN trunk.
17:04:53saratogatheres a lot there, but without a way to run code on any AMS targets, its not quite useful yet
17:06:42LambdaCalculus37I haven't got any AMS targets, so I can't do anything with it.
17:07:20LambdaCalculus37Although if I do see a Sansa Clip for dirt cheap, I'd get one.
17:09:04saratogathe clip doesn't have any SDRAM, so its not worth getting unless you like the retail firmware
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17:09:54LambdaCalculus37Bah... the Clip is out of the question, then.
17:11:41gevaertsOf course, if you like a _real_ challenge... ;)
17:12:50LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: A _real_ challenge would be porting Rockbox to the Rio PMP300. :P
17:13:11scorche|shspoke to jott...he licensed his code under GPL v2.0 or later...and regarding if he used any other code in the patch:
17:13:41scorche|sh<jott> atleast the core routines are mine, the font generation/converter is based of a freetype provided example <scorche|sh> any license on that code? <jott> hm it's basically just initalization stuff of the freetype engine.. <jott> oh and it contains parts of the rockbox 1-bit font converter
17:14:30scorche|sh(this is regarding the antialiasing patch if there were questions..)
17:17:00gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: is there hardware information somewhere ?
17:17:20LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: For the PMP300? No idea.
17:17:50gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: then asking for a port is a bit useless, isn't it ? ;)
17:18:04LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Yes, it is. ;)
17:18:30LambdaCalculus37Besides, what kind of nutcase would even attempt a port like that?
17:19:33*gevaerts looks around
17:20:23MaCkenzIeGodEater
17:20:29MaCkenzIeinstall done
17:20:32gevaertsLet's give one to linuxstb :)
17:20:33MaCkenzIebut
17:20:48LambdaCalculus37linuxstb had a PMP300 at one point. :)
17:20:56LambdaCalculus37But I digress...
17:21:05MaCkenzIetha songs dont play
17:21:24LambdaCalculus37MaCkenzIe: Are the songs purchased from the iTunes store?
17:21:32MaCkenzIeno
17:21:36MaCkenzIewhy?
17:21:36LambdaCalculus37What format?
17:21:43MaCkenzIemp3
17:21:47MaCkenzIemp4
17:21:56 Quit Davidz ()
17:22:12LambdaCalculus37Rockbox will not, and never will, play any DRM-encumbered songs.
17:22:25LambdaCalculus37That's why I asked if the songs you're trying to play are DRMed.
17:22:26MaCkenzIewhat is that?
17:22:34Synergy6Rights protected
17:22:41LambdaCalculus37http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
17:23:03LambdaCalculus37MaCkenzIe: Put it mildly: DRM = no rights for you, the consumer.
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17:24:48MaCkenzIeso i must uninstall rockbox in order to ply my songs?
17:25:02MaCkenzIein original firmware
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17:25:24sansa240usercan i load rockbox on a sansa 240?
17:25:36sansa240usernot having any luck
17:25:52sansa240userc240
17:25:57gevaertsIs it a v1?
17:26:02sansa240useryes
17:26:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:26:33sansa240user01.01.05p
17:26:42sansa240user1gig
17:27:15gevaertsIs it in MSC mode ?
17:27:29sansa240userhow do u get to msc mode?
17:27:38Synergy6Does rockbox have a prefered music manager software?
17:27:47gevaertsSynergy6: no. Use whatever you like
17:28:32Synergy6Are players set us as clean disk space?
17:28:32 Quit GodEater ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
17:29:02MaCkenzIeis there a way to play my songs on rockbox?
17:29:08gevaertssansa240user: I seem to remember vaguely that 01.01.05 is one of the versions that don't have msc mode, but I'm not sure.
17:29:14pixelmathe 01.01.05 firmware doesn't have a MSC mode setting, there are a few possibilities to still get it there (there's a trick which involves holding buttons, using linux seems to work too or downgrading the firmware)
17:29:43gevaertsSynergy6: I'm not sure what you mean
17:29:55sansa240userok thx
17:30:02sansa240useri will look it up
17:30:03Synergy6Like, storage space
17:30:05pixelmasansa240user: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SansaC200Port#No_MSC_Mode
17:30:13sansa240userthx
17:30:13Synergy6As opposed to requiring specific software to manage music
17:31:03gevaertsSynergy6: ah, ok. Rockbox always uses normal USB storage access, and can play files from anywhere on the disk
17:31:18Synergy6Oki, ty
17:31:26gevaertsMaCkenzIe: if your music is not DRMed, rockbox should play it fine
17:32:34MaCkenzIei fixed it
17:32:44MaCkenzIein the database
17:33:00MaCkenzIenow its ok
17:33:11gevaertsMaCkenzIe: also, please try to keep sentences on one line
17:33:28MaCkenzIeok sorry
17:34:46 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
17:34:54MaCkenzIecan't i have the playlists i have on itunes
17:34:57MaCkenzIe?
17:37:04LambdaCalculus37Playlists in Rockbox are in the .m3u format.
17:37:26LambdaCalculus37So they need to be converted first.
17:38:07MaCkenzIeyes . can i have the plylists as on itunes..?
17:38:21MaCkenzIeshown on rockbox
17:39:06sansa240useranyone know where to get old firmware?
17:39:45LambdaCalculus37There's a link on the wiki to various versions of the Sansa c200 firmware.
17:40:23LambdaCalculus37Umm... oh crap!
17:40:29*LambdaCalculus37 sees the link is dead
17:40:49LambdaCalculus37They were located here: http://files.zefie.com/PMP/sansa/c200/firmware/1.01.00/ but the link seems to be dead at the moment.
17:41:07sansa240userya i will try it
17:41:09gevaertshttp://files.zefie.com/PMP/sansa/c200/v1/firmware/1.01.00/
17:41:34LambdaCalculus37gevaerts to the rescue! :)
17:42:18sansa240userits dead i will google and see if i can find a diff link i would really like to use rockbox on here
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17:42:32gevaertssansa240user: the one I gave isn't deas
17:42:36gevaertss/deas/dead/
17:42:51*gevaerts fixed the wiki
17:43:04MaCkenzIesansa240user look here http://www.felixbruns.de/iPod/firmware/
17:43:42LambdaCalculus37MaCkenzIe: Why do you think his/her name is sansa240user? :)
17:43:48pixelmaMaCkenzIe: eh? What does an Ipod firmware help her?
17:43:55pixelma*here
17:44:08MaCkenzIedont know...
17:44:10LambdaCalculus37Although thanks for the link anyway.
17:44:27MaCkenzIei tried to help...
17:45:06sansa240userok
17:46:05LambdaCalculus37MaCkenzIe: Thanks for pointing out that iPod firmware link. I could at least grab some of the firmwares for research.
17:46:07MaCkenzIeso . how can i put the itunes playlists on rockbox?
17:46:33LambdaCalculus37You have to convert them to .m3u playlists.
17:47:04MaCkenzIethere is a program to do this?
17:48:15LambdaCalculus37Look on this page: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UsefulTools
17:50:17 Quit perrikwp ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
17:51:34sansa240userhttp://files.zefie.com/PMP/sansa/c200/v1/firmware/1.01.00/ working link
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17:52:13gevaertssansa240user: that's the one I gave earlier...
17:52:43sansa240userhmm
17:52:56sansa240userdidnt work when i clicked on it
17:53:03sansa240useroh well
17:53:22sansa240userwish i saved the box i would take this back to walmart!!!
17:53:29MaCkenzIei think that if rockbox didn't needed to convert playlists. it would make rockbox better.....
17:53:51gevaertsMaCkenzIe: rockbox supports _the_ most usual playlist format, i.e. m3u
17:54:04preglowi think that if rockbox supported absolutely everything in the known universe, it would make rockbox better....
17:54:17MaCkenzIehaha
17:54:24LambdaCalculus37preglow: Except for DRM.
17:54:29pixelmapreglow: think of loading times ;)
17:54:29pregloweven that!
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17:56:46sansa240userD/L old firmware now
17:56:49sansa240user:)
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18:02:53sansa240userthx all
18:03:09 Quit sansa240user ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
18:03:31linuxstbmarkun: Replying to your question about the status of other ports with the same controller - the D2 is most advanced, but still only has an unstable read-only flash driver. My current ports (Logik DAX and Sansa M260) are progressing now, but don't have any kind of flash driver. The hope is to use USB to dump the raw flash pages, to help us understand how the translation from flash pages to disk-style sectors works.
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18:29:11*preglow wonders if there is a standard for charsets on dab transmissions...
18:29:19preglowthe d2 doesn't handle norwegian characters too well, heh
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18:41:55linuxstbpreglow: Download the DAB specs and find out...
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18:46:48preglowthey're free?
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18:47:41linuxstbYes, although you may need to register with the ETSI
18:48:03linuxstbGoogle finds it though - http://www.google.com/search?q=ETSI+EN+300+401
18:48:29linuxstbIt's been a while since I looked on the ETSI website directly - but I've downloaded all the DVB specs from there in the past.
18:48:43midgeyBagder: ping
18:48:55linuxstbThe DAB+ spec is here - http://webapp.etsi.org/action/PU/20070213/ts_102563v010101p.pdf
18:50:17markunpreglow: how's the quality with DAB? Do you have a clear signal if you travel around?
18:50:30preglowmarkun: haven't had time to travel too much around yet
18:50:39preglowsignals around here are decent enough, though i do hear errors
18:51:03linuxstbDealing with the errors in a nice sounding way is going to be a problem I suspect.
18:51:04preglowlinuxstb: ahh, hundred page specs... think i'll wait with this treat until coding starts
18:51:25preglowlinuxstb: well, for dab the options are quite clear, at least
18:51:32*gevaerts goes to read up on gigabeat surgery
18:51:34preglowsince layer 2 is such a simple encoding
18:51:56markungevaerts: received you player?
18:52:15preglowthe d2 os doesn't always conceal errors so nicely, i've had high pitched squeaks from time to time
18:52:37gevaertsmarkun: yes. It worked, but apparently I did something wrong with the bootloader installation
18:53:11markungevaerts: and what do you get now?
18:53:24gevaertsmarkun: it hangs on the gigabeat splash screen
18:53:54markunhas happened to a lot of people
18:54:01pixelmamidgey: wanted to ask you how you want to deal the new voice strings just to get an impression myself
18:54:19*gevaerts feels relieved :)
18:54:47midgeypixelma: i'm not sure the way i'm currently doing it will be what is committed
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18:55:20midgeywhen i plugin is loaded, i steal the core lang buffer and load that with the plugin strings
18:55:35midgeythen on exit, i reload the core lng file
18:55:44pixelmaI think there was a page listing some options in the wiki. Are you aware of that?
18:57:37midgeyhmm, i see. none of those are really what i was doing
18:58:03midgeyi don't like my method because the strings aren't linked with the plugin right now
18:58:22midgeyso if the lng file is missing from the disk, the plugin is basically unusable
18:58:31midgeynot very nice
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19:03:23pixelmayeah, the page is more a collection of ideas and I saw discussion about that arise here from time to time. One thing crossing my mind right now: what's with common strings that you could find in a lot of plugins (like quit or level and such)
19:03:34amiconnmidgey: I think plugins should do it the same way as tge core, i.e. having the english strings built in
19:04:11amiconnThe challenge is handling the .lng and .voice chunks, one per "user" (core, and each localised plugin)
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19:04:49midgeyamiconn: i would agree that they should be built in. Upon reading the wiki page, option 1 seems ideal but also the hardest
19:05:14amiconnI think the plugin shouldn't overwrite the core buffers though, otherwise calling back some core menu will break
19:06:14amiconnAlso, buffer size requirements are different for each "user"
19:06:57midgeyindeed, right now i have no safety checks at all in the code so a plugin with a lot of strings will certainly crash
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19:07:04midgeyi need to read up on the user field
19:07:24amiconnThere is no such filed yet
19:07:28amiconn*field
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19:08:17amiconnThere are some further ideas regarding that. If we come up with a nice way of handling chunks, we could also extend it to handle individual strings/clips
19:08:20preglowlinuxstb: dab+ spec was small and nice
19:08:48amiconnThis would allow to do away with per-target .lng and .voice files, while keeping the space advantages
19:09:03midgeyi guess that would explain why the field is always blank
19:09:08amiconn...i.e. only loading those strings/clips which are actually needed on a particular target
19:09:28amiconnI mean combination of target and user
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19:10:15midgeyi understand. one universal lang file for all targets and they load which strings they need
19:10:35amiconnYup. Same for .voice
19:11:27midgeyso when a plugin is loaded, would the buffer be flushed and reloaded with the strings needed by that plugin (plus any core string - playback menu)?
19:11:46amiconnno
19:11:59amiconnThe plugin would need its own buffers in the plugin ram
19:12:13gevaertsrockboxed_daps++ :)
19:12:45amiconnBtw, .voice files would probably not end up completely universal, 'cause handling 2 different audio formats for the clips would become nasty
19:12:46 Quit dabujo ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com )")
19:12:59amiconnSo one universal .voice for hwcodec, and another for swcodec
19:13:04midgeymakes sense, perhaps the plugin strings would be P_LANG_ when referenced
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19:13:55amiconnYeah, that's the interesting part - handling those IDs in an efficient way when they are no longer contiguous
19:14:30domonokywouldnt it make sense to keep the voice files target specific ? as the core voicefile are now also target specific ?
19:15:42domonokyand if we update the voice format, it would be coud to include some version string, so we could check if the voicefile fits the current installed build ? ..
19:15:47amiconnRight now the LANG_* IDs are generated per target at compile time, leaving out the ones excluded for that target. So the IDs are always contiguous, and can easily be regenerated at runtime (no need to build the pointer array into the binary, which saves several KB)
19:15:57domonokys/could/good/
19:16:25amiconndomonoky: The idea is that there should ultimately be only one single voice file for all targets, covering core and all voiced plugins
19:16:36amiconnOne file per language, of course
19:17:04amiconnThere is a version marker in .lng and .voice iirc
19:17:19domonokyso we would exclude the not need voice strings at loadtime ?
19:17:21mrkikoAre there voiced plugins? What plugins are voiced currently?
19:17:28amiconnnone
19:17:38amiconnThat's part of the project...
19:17:47domonokythere is a version in the voicefile, but this version is for the format, not for the build..
19:17:48midgeymrkiko: no, that would be a secondary task for my proposal
19:18:06midgeyas in "get translations working first"
19:18:45mrkikoFrom the last codep olice raid on, rockbox freezes very often in my player..
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19:19:15mrkikois someone encountering other problems? I'm using official builds now, not my own ones.
19:19:16midgeythe challenge is coming up with a universal .lng but still not added much to binsize
19:19:50Lloreanmrkiko: Please use specific revision numbers.
19:20:01*amiconn thinks that should be possible
19:20:19amiconnIt will probably use somewhat more ram than what we need now though
19:20:22mrkikoLlorean: sorry, i allways forget to do so...
19:20:24LloreanThe last build to actually use the words "code policing" was only changes in files for the ZVM.
19:20:32amiconnNot ideal, but probably not avoidable either
19:20:41scorche|shLlorean: search the recent logs for jott...i think you missed it
19:20:50midgeyi think my current method adds ~150 bytes, but is not an ideal method
19:20:59midgeyso i'll probably be starting over
19:21:57mrkikoAniway I have a new iRiver h340 now, and I noticved rockbox freezes the same way as with the old one I have again...
19:22:06Lloreanscorche|sh: Sounds like it's clean then.
19:22:11mrkikoSo I'm not mad :)
19:22:50scorche|shLlorean: well, i dont know about that sample code, but /shrug
19:23:06Lloreanscorche|sh: If it's from Freetype it should be GPL
19:23:35scorche|shLlorean: should be, but it doesnt hurt to make sure ;)
19:23:54amiconnBinsize is more critical than ram (although more free ram is also a good thing)
19:23:58LloreanWell, Freetype is GPL. So as long as that's where it actually came from... :-P
19:24:04midgeyjust so everyone's aware, i'll be gone this weekend without my computer and i'll be in california for most of next week. i might have internet but i'm not sure how much coding i'll be able to get done
19:24:10scorche|shah...i didnt know for sure
19:24:22scorche|shmidgey: where in cali?
19:24:29midgeysanta barbara
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19:25:06midgeyfigured it was better to tell everyone now rather than just disappear :)
19:25:13scorche|shbah...a bit far
19:25:57scorche|sh2 hours and change provided traffic is good
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19:26:35mrkikomidgey: good luck
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19:26:53midgeythank you
19:27:11Horschtyou're welcome
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19:41:50*amiconn wonders what the criteria are which targets are listed on BuyersGuide and which are not
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19:45:25Lloreanamiconn: "If they play music in Rockbox, and someone knows enough about them to fill in the relevant fields" is all, I think
19:45:44amiconnWell, there's a number of targets not listed at all
19:45:50amiconnSHould I add those?
19:46:21LloreanIn my opinion, yes.
19:46:44 Quit Mathiasdm2 ("Yuuw!")
19:46:55faemirCan someone tell me why rockbox isn't keeping my settings when it shutdown or restarts?
19:47:10BigBambiwhat player
19:47:14Horschtwhich ones?
19:47:16faemiripod 5.5 gen 30gb
19:47:21BigBambiAnd how are you shitting down?
19:47:29faemirhaha
19:47:31BigBambi*shutting, of course :)
19:47:35*Llorean thinks it's odd the buyer's guide doesn't distinguish "mp3-only" (and WAV) players
19:47:37pixelmahehe
19:47:56faemireither holding the play button and it says "shutting down" or force restarting as if i've had a freeze
19:48:09BigBambiholding down play should be fine
19:48:11faemirwhich happens a lot less now compared to last november :D
19:48:21faemircould it be write access problems?
19:48:25BigBambiUsing the reset (menu + select) is a hard reboot and will not save
19:48:26Horschtdoes it not hold any settings at all?
19:48:37Horschtor just settings like background or similar stuff?
19:48:38faemirnah
19:48:38PaulJam_faemir: in that case run chkdsk
19:48:48faemirI mean every single option
19:49:04faemirstuff like pause on headphone coming out etc
19:49:11PaulJam_faemir: there were cases where settings weren't saved because of filesystem corruption
19:51:00faemirwill fsck do?
19:52:07PaulJam_i guess so (i'm not extremely familiar with linux)
19:52:15faemirok
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20:01:00faemirPaulJam_: there were errors, but they appear to be fixed now
20:01:01faemir:)
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20:08:41linuxstbamiconn, Llorean: The BuyersGuide page was (to quote the page itself...) "For Rockbox supported players that are currently available for purchase". But people now seemed to have added other targets (and targets haven't been removed)...
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20:11:31amiconnlinuxstb: Well, no rockboxable target can be bought new (except for some stock clearing). So the main supply is ebay, I think, and if someone is looking for a dap on ebay, he could choose from all supported models
20:11:43amiconnSome are very rare though
20:12:08linuxstbYes, I know - I'm just saying that the purpose of the page has changed over time - which would explain the inconsistencies...
20:12:25LambdaCalculus37The page needs to be cleaned up, then.
20:12:26linuxstbIMO it should list all targets...
20:13:10linuxstbIt would be nice to include (if we can find it) a date range saying when each DAP was available to buy.
20:13:23*LambdaCalculus37 sees amiconn editing away at the page
20:14:44*amiconn added the missing archoses, the M3, and some missing info for others
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20:18:21amiconnlinuxstb: Date range might be difficult to define. Start date would be easier
20:18:53amiconnIirc the archos Player was the first of the supported targets, released in 1999
20:19:12linuxstbMaybe just start and end years would be enough.
20:19:38linuxstbIt's just to give people an idea of the different generations of players, and approximately when they went out of production.
20:20:06linuxstbIpod dates should be easy to find.
20:20:58DerPapstthey're on wikipedia.
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20:28:29linuxstbmarkun: How does the meizu boot?
20:28:56markunthe boot sequence?
20:29:23linuxstbyes
20:30:19markunthere is a bootloader in a 50KB rom which had the rescue mode and looks for other places to find a boot image
20:31:05markunin case of the M6SL it finds the bootimage in the NAND flash rom, loads it to SDRAM, maps SDRAM to 0x0 and executes it
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20:42:52linuxstbmarkun: So in theory, it's unbrickable?
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20:45:06markunlinuxstb: yes, should be. Unless we can write to the internal ROM
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20:47:31bertrikamiconn, JdGordon: can I commit FS #8947 (stub ata_disk_is_active for the simulator)?
20:48:01bertrikyou discussed it earlier today but there was no conclusion as far as I understood
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20:49:00*linuxstb is currently working on the m260 with the nand flash module physically removed - very safe :)
20:49:15linuxstb(unless I lose it of course...)
20:55:10midgeyi think i have an m240v1 and m240v2
20:55:54midgeyi'd like to see rockbox on both (once the v2 firmware is figured out)
20:57:08saratogalinuxstb: thats a v1 model?
20:57:24saratogaalso, FAAD has actually had a few CVS checkins these last few months
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21:00:51linuxstbsaratoga: yes
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21:06:38gevaertsmarkun: do you have any idea about the register endianness for the meizu usb controller ?
21:07:03markunno idea
21:07:11markundo you have the s5l8700 datasheet?
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21:07:46gevaertsyes
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21:10:15sansa240useris there any way to del the sansa OS and only have rockbox?
21:10:38gevaertssansa240user: rockbox doesn't have a native usb mode yet
21:10:46sansa240userdamn
21:11:01sansa240userok i got the rockbox working and its great!!!!
21:11:18sansa240userthey should make there own mp3 players
21:11:36sansa240user1000 times better than b4
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21:55:27*LambdaCalculus37 now has a Sansa e100 firmware update and will be looking through it later on
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22:03:27bertrikgevaerts: USB serial port can be activated just by defining USB_SERIAL, right? does it also disable mass storage?
22:04:44bertrikoh, I think I see, I think I have to edit usb_core.h
22:04:59gevaertsbertrik: it doesn't disable mass storage. However, to actually activate it at runtime, you also need to call usb_core_enable_driver(USB_DRIVER_SERIAL,true) (this is done by the debug menu code now)
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22:23:24GShangApologies if this is offtopic for this channel. I've been asked to research whether Rockbox will run on the Iaudio A3. I've not found any evidence that it will but thought I'd ask here before I reported back.
22:23:27 Quit nplus (Remote closed the connection)
22:23:55Bagderit doesn't
22:24:08DerPapstAll supported daps are listed on the fromtpage. If it isn't there it's not supported :-)
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22:25:22*gevaerts warns DerPapst about using the word "supported" if pixelma is nearby
22:25:39DerPapsts/supported/working/
22:25:42DerPapst*cough*
22:26:37*scorche|sh wonders about that particular usage of the word
22:26:59GShangThanks. Keep up the great work. We'll find another model for my friend to buy that supports it. We rely on Rockbox for the speech output.
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22:38:28pixelmajust wanted to prevent misunderstandings...
22:40:25scorche|shpixelma: however referring to that list in particular, those *are* the supported units
22:40:36pixelmawhy?
22:40:55pixelmathe list refers to them as "Rockbox runs on these players"
22:41:04scorche|shrockbox may "run" on other devices...and i hesitate to say "run fully", as those devices may not all run fully
22:41:41pixelmaand I'd imagine something different about something "supported"
22:41:46scorche|shi agree with your usage, but i just get all bundled up when i think of the technical usage
22:42:27pixelmaor I "could"
22:42:43linuxstbIMO the problem is not saying something is "supported", it's the reverse - i.e. saying it's "not supported". That could imply that it works.
22:43:10scorche|shrockbox "runs" on the, say, D2, however it is not supported and doesnt run rockbox near completely
22:43:26pixelmathat's where the discussion started
22:43:32 Quit bertrik ("bye")
22:45:48pixelmascorche|sh: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15859.0 (I started this after asking here if I should create a NotSupported wiki page...)
22:48:02scorche|shand i agree...we should say it doesnt run on those devices rather than "not supported" and i have changed my wording on that
22:49:15scorche|shmy issue is with the front page list which is obviously a list of players we "support"...it is also an incomplete list of "the targets rockbox runs on"....it is also a list of "devices rockbox runs on that we have judged to be complete enough and usable enough for general users"
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22:52:06linuxstbscorche|sh: So how would you reword the front page?
22:52:52scorche|shi dont know =/
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22:53:22scorche|shit is fine for general use...i just get hung up on the technical side when technically rockbox does run on other devices
22:53:29linuxstbI agree that "runs" isn't 100% accurate, but I think it's good enough.
22:54:01linuxstbAnd I can't think of a short way to say it better.
22:54:27scorche|shit gets the message across to the users correctly...i just find i hard to say "the front page has a list of targets that rockbox runs on"
22:55:09scorche|shactually, i suppose that line is alright as long as we dont say "all" or "complete"
22:55:35Bagder"targets that rockbox runs on good enough so that we can tell average people to go ahead and try it on them" :-)
22:55:49scorche|sh....it is also a list of "devices rockbox runs on that we have judged to be complete enough and usable enough for general users"
22:55:57scorche|shas i said above ;)
22:55:59pixelma"It runs well on..." =) But basically I think that only mention the players it works good enough is better than imply (if only a few people get confused) that maybe no-one's tried etc.
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23:49:28Hillshumhow would i hack the sansa v2 checksum?
23:50:51Bagderhack?
23:51:04Hillshumlike, figure it out
23:51:07 Quit davina (Remote closed the connection)
23:51:16Bagderhttp://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2007/12/05/i-solved-the-ams-sansas-firmware-checksum-puzzle/
23:51:25Bagderperhaps
23:51:38Bagderbut there's some additional info in the v2 thread in the forum too
23:53:05Hillshumive read the thread
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