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#rockbox log for 2008-08-03

00:00:54 Join fyre^OS [0] (n=fyre@cpe-68-173-172-243.nyc.res.rr.com)
00:02:34solexx_I still think the whole point of the procedure is to have two versions of Rockbox available, one in ROM and one in RAM. Since the patch isn't needed anymore, you don't need to have two versions around and just unziping a current rockbox.zip to the CF should work, as long as you have a current bootloader installed.
00:04:52solexx_I just don't understand the point where the wiki says to flash "rockbox.iriver (RAM image) to ROM". Opening the file with the flash plugin doesn't offer a choice where the flash it, I guess rockbox.iriver always ends up in RAM.
00:05:13 Quit fyrestorm (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
00:06:23solexx_What's also strange is that when I choose "boot from disk" on the bootloader menu, I don't get "ata -80" but "no partitions found" instead.
00:06:29 Quit snoh (Remote closed the connection)
00:06:40solexx_But there is exactly one partition on the CF card.
00:09:19 Quit bluebrother ("leaving")
00:16:12BigBambirockbox.iriver always ends up in ram
00:16:22BigBambior rather, as the ram image
00:16:35BigBambithe one called rombox is the one that is run direct from rom
00:17:11BigBambiI can't remember the exact name, but it is something like rombox.iriver
00:18:52solexx_BigBambi: yes, it is.
00:19:24BigBambiThe thing is, both are stored in ROM
00:19:48BigBambiThe difference is that rockbox.iriver is copied to RAM to be run, rombox.iriver is run direct from ROM
00:20:24BigBambiSo when the wiki says to flash rockbox.iriver (RAM image) to ROM it is correct, if not too clear
00:20:30 Join kugel [0] (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/kugel)
00:22:21solexx_BigBambi: ah, so both are *stored* in ROM, but while rombox.iriver is directly run from ROM, rockbox.iriver is loaded into RAM before it is run?
00:22:27BigBambiyes
00:23:39solexx_ah, thanks
00:27:39solexx_Anybody with experience running Rockbox from CF on Iriver H120 in here?
00:28:20 Quit Schmogel (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:29:22Soaphttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/rdiff/Main/WpsIpod5g?type=history causes an error 500.
00:29:46SoapI know it is a large page with lots of revisions, but being unable to view history kinda sucks.
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01:08:12 Join nevyn [0] (n=nevyn@210-84-52-241.dyn.iinet.net.au)
01:10:20nevynCan I be reasonably confident that the following item is an ipod that is supported in rockbox? http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/60gb-apple-ipod-classic-black-reconfigured/
01:10:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:12:45domonokynevyn: ipod classic does not work with rockbox..
01:12:59nevynright.
01:13:07nevynbut aiui it's not actually an ipod classic
01:13:23kugelYea, that doesn't look like a classig
01:13:34nevynthis is part of why I'm asking
01:13:49nevynaiui the classic is only the 80/160GB models
01:14:16kugelnevyn: That sounds like refurbished ipod to me, where "reconfigured" means that the front and backplate have been replaced with original parts if they've taken damage
01:14:31nevynkugel: that's what I think
01:14:34BigBambinevyn: That is true, but it might have had an odd hard drive stuck in
01:14:44nevynin which case it's a g5.5
01:14:45BigBambiHowever, I think it isn't a classic and will be OK
01:15:02BigBambinevyn: For reference, http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1353
01:15:35lordpilthey list the model, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=MA147LL
01:16:43BigBambiYes, googling for the model number brings up an ipod video
01:17:11nevynneato
01:17:14BigBambiSo it should be fine, it isn't actually a classic
01:17:24nevynBigBambi: that's what I figgured.
01:17:28BigBambiNo guarantees though :)
01:17:35nevynof course.
01:17:53nevynproblem is.
01:18:04nevynto the vast majority an ipod is an ipod is an ipod
01:18:12BigBambier, what?
01:18:23BigBambiNot in hardware terms between generations
01:18:27nevynsure.
01:18:39BigBambiSorry, I misread
01:18:40nevynI know that.
01:19:07BigBambiI missed the to at the start and inserted an of between majority and an
01:19:11nevynbut the labeling and so on don't make it clear which generation ipod things are.
01:19:53BigBambithe vast majority of an ipod is an ipod is an ipod reads very differently :)
01:20:01nevynheh
01:20:08kugelnevyn: True, my friends even freak out if they see a ipod shuffle
01:20:09nevynno to the vast majority of peopl
01:20:29kugelI tell'em "but it has no display, that sucks", and they just answer: "but it's an ipod"
01:20:58nevynand classic has become a way to specify the "standard" ipod as opposed to a touch or nano or shuffle
01:21:50nevynthanks
01:22:38kugelnevyn: But, the ipod video is actually the target on which rockbox performs worst
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01:27:37nevynkugel: bother.
01:27:45BigBambiBig screen, slow processor
01:27:53nevynwhat should I be looking for in this size storage range?
01:28:06BigBambiwww.rockbox.org/wiki/BuyersGuide
01:30:18nevynok so that doesn't mention that the ipod video sucks for rockbox. and it doesn't give a guide as to what works well/best
01:31:08BigBambiportalplayer have fairly slow processors (ipod, h10, sansa), or the bigger the screen within those the worse
01:32:02BigBambiIt depends what you want to do - the ipod video will be likely fine unless you want to have every bit of dsp turned on (equalizer etc) or watch video
01:32:11 Quit BHSPitLappy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:32:52BigBambiOn the ipod video if you want to watch video you are better of using the apple firmware, as it can use an additional chip for video playback that we don't know how to use
01:33:57BigBambiAnd I don't mean just equaliser, I mean all the other DSP options too (disclaimer, I've not actually used one, I'm just going on other people's experiences)
01:34:10BigBambiThe gigabeat F is very good though
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01:39:53lordpilhas anyone actually connected a jtag debugger to the e200 successfully?
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02:52:27Colby_Question: I have an iriver H10 20gb. Ages ago it got wet or something, and the scroll/track bar on it now doesn't scroll at all with iRiver firmware, and with Rockbox firmware it scrolls straight down no matter what (though it will scroll up, but then promptly back down). Also, whenever I try to use -any- buttons on my player with Rockbox (power, skip buttons, select, back) they don't work...
02:52:29Colby_...at all - to the point where I have to manually reset my player to get it to even turn off. Any ideas? Is this a software or hardware issue?
02:54:23scorcheif they dont work properly in either firmware, it is hardware...
02:55:39Colby_I don't understand why I can't even browse the folder trees in Rockbox though - that at least works in the iRiver firmware.
02:56:06Colby_For me, the Rockbox menu won't even do anything except let me scroll between Files - System. I can't open any of those options.
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03:05:28SoapIIRC Rockbox's scroll pad "interpreter" is significantly different than iRiver's, still it is clearly a hardware issue.
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03:10:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:12:35 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
03:17:35num1someone mentioned that you can dynamically allocate memory on rockbox without using malloc
03:18:04num1How do I do this? (sorry for using multiple lines, my finger slipped)
03:19:49JdGordondepends how much you want, and how dynamic, and how you want to use it
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03:26:49num1I want enough to hold an image the size of the screen, at the screens bitdepth. I basically want to make an array with a size determined at runtime. preferably read and write, unless you have a different meaning for "how you want to use it"
03:28:48num1on a stylistic note, in apps/lang there's a mix of naming a language file based on the word for the language, and the languages word for the language. If I make a patch that changes all the names to english what are the chances of it being accepted?
03:29:12JdGordonany reason to not just make it statically sized at compile time?
03:29:32JdGordonand there has been a bit of discussoin about that and we dont really knwow hat we want
03:30:50kugelJdGordon: Morning :)
03:31:14JdGordonhi
03:31:40JdGordonI've looked... depending on my day ill concider commiting :p
03:31:49num1I would prefer to save space, but that's not really a strong argument at this scale. What I would really like is to make a buffer the exact size of the image, that I can blit to the screen, instead of having to perform translations on every pixel as I'm adding then to the image to account for its position on the screen. I should've said I want to hold an image the size of the screen or smaller
03:32:17kugelJdGordon: :P
03:32:54kugelJdGordon: No need to rush, the statusbar still flickers (in case you were talking about the pitchscreen_vp patch)
03:34:07 Quit dabujo_ (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
03:34:12JdGordonnum1: something like extern fb_data lcd_framebuffer[LCD_FBHEIGHT][LCD_FBWIDTH];
03:34:38JdGordonnum1: depends on the feauter it may be better to allocate the buffer from the audiobuffer at boot time
03:34:50JdGordonaudiobuf_alloc() (or somethying like that)
03:35:07JdGordonnot the same ass buffer_alloc()
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03:35:37num1JdGordon: buffer_alloc() allocates data in the plugin buffer?
03:35:37JdGordonsorry, got them backwards... use buffer_alloc()
03:36:27JdGordonbuffer_alloc() steals some of the audio buffer
03:37:01num1JdGordon: alright, thanks. I was hoping there was a way to dynamically allocate memory without stopping playback
03:38:22JdGordonthere is
03:38:34JdGordongive me a min... im putting up a wiki page with the options
03:38:45 Quit nplus (Remote closed the connection)
03:39:16JdGordonif you want to keep the buffer for the whole rockbox "session" then you should either statially allocate it, or use buffer_alloc
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04:00
04:07:25JdGordonarg, the wiki has slowed to a crawl :(
04:07:49num1JdGordon: can you post a link to the page when you're done?
04:09:37JdGordonnum1: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AllocatingRAM
04:09:57num1JdGordon: thank you kindly
04:19:56num1I'm having trouble attaching a files to flyspray reports and comments. And ideas?
04:21:00num1nevermind I found out why. How do I add a patch that's bigger than 2MB?
04:21:11num1s/add/submit
04:21:28JdGordonzip it?
04:21:33JdGordonwhat file is it?
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04:22:46num1#9235
04:23:36num1can someone look at FS #9234 please?
04:24:40JdGordonyeah, i saw it... its a pretty low priority fix...
04:25:05num1JdGordon: well yes... but it's also a very easy one-line fix
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04:39:22num1JdGordon: I'm assuming that if you're a plugin you can't allocate memory from your plugin buffer at runtime since you didn't add it to the list?
04:41:20JdGordonif your a plugin just use the static buffer... its easiest
04:41:25JdGordonunless its larger than 512K
04:42:05num1what's the static buffer?
04:42:46JdGordonjust add a global variable to the plugin
04:42:55JdGordonchar mybuffer[BUF_ZISE];
04:44:05num1JdGordon: alright, thanks
04:45:12saratogais vfat.h a standard unix library?
04:45:32JdGordondunno
04:46:05JdGordonim guessing no though
04:46:52saratogasorry vfs
05:00
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05:10:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:14:31saratogaJdGordon: are include files specific to a particular gcc build, or do all the gcc versions (arm, coldfire, etc) use the same include files?
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05:15:30JdGordonsaratoga: umm.. i assume they all use the same ones, except where they have arch specific stuff.. but then they would still have the same names, or #included in a common .h?
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05:17:15saratogaJdGordon: so all gcc crosscompilers are still looking at /usr/include?
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05:32:16saratogai've just found the strangest gcc issue
05:32:49saratogaremoving #ifndef_ANSIDECL_H_ from _ansi.h fixes a compilation problem, even though putting a #warning in the file shows that it was not defined
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06:05:01mahawhats 'caption backlight' ?
06:05:17JdGordonthe backlight turns on for a few seconds at the track change
06:05:37mahaso whats 'party mode'
06:06:01mahaits not very intuitive
06:06:07JdGordonhttp://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml
06:08:23mahai hasve always been havin this battery drain issue
06:08:40mahait can do perhaps 10 h
06:08:43mahae200 sansa
06:08:48mahais this normal ?
06:12:19advcomp2019i get around 15 to 17 on my sansa.. how old is your sansa
06:13:40num1my e280 gets about 19 depending on how use it
06:13:54num1on how *I* use it
06:16:08mahathat sucks
06:16:16mahaits like 6 months
06:16:22mahararely use it actually
06:16:38saratogadid you batterybench it ?
06:20:27mahai think i did at some point
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07:04:34vitjalinuxstb, I did it
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07:35:38num1for 16bit color lcd targets, how do I figure out what the format is? Like how are red green and blue packed into those 6 bits?
07:35:46num1s/6/16
07:37:46num1RGBPACK_LCD seems like the answer but it confuses me because it doesn't seem to care what the LCD_DEPTH is
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07:44:15num1nevermind, I found it.
07:44:26*num1 tells himself to RTFM before asking questions
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08:55:31linuxstbvitja: What did you do?
08:56:02vitjalinuxstb, I've written button and simple lcd driver
08:56:15vitjaand rockbox bootloader booted
08:56:50vitjanow I'm going to play with usb 2.0 host
08:56:59vitjas/host/device/
08:57:08vitjanever did it before, only host
08:57:36linuxstbHave you tested the NAND driver?
08:58:46vitjawhen I call ata_init() bootloader panics with nand cache error
08:59:35vitjadoes it work ok on other tcc77x ports?
09:00
09:00:11linuxstbIt apparently works a little... At least, I haven't heard of that error before.
09:01:41vitjaok so.. if run ata_init() in bootloader instead of show_debug_screen() that should work?
09:02:47linuxstbYes. Are you also calling the other _init() functions?
09:03:30vitjahere are I use default loader that could be found in bootloader/telechips.c
09:03:54vitjaI see cowond2 also calls kernel_init() and enable_irq()
09:04:00vitjadoes that makes sens?
09:05:20linuxstbNo, the D2 doesn't call those two functions.
09:05:40vitjayeah
09:05:46vitjaI was wrong here
09:06:51vitjaso I simply enable D2 nand initialization code, and that sais Max NAND write cac has reached
09:08:38vitjaIs that write?
09:08:46vitjaI mean right
09:10:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:11:03linuxstbWell, something is obviously wrong. shotofadds is the person to talk to about the NAND driver, but I think he may be on vacation for the next couple of weeks...
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09:19:57vitjamy player is 8Gb, if that matter
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09:22:45linuxstbHave you tried increasing the number of write caches (MAX_WRITE_CACHES in ata-nand-telechips.c) ?
09:23:04linuxstbI've no idea if that's the right thing to do, or if that error is because there is another issue...
09:24:46vitjano
09:25:01vitjabut it seems driver detects my flash correctly
09:26:44vitjalinuxstb: I set it to 64, and ata_init and mount finish successfully)
09:27:34linuxstbI think that's good... You don't want to set it higher than needed though.
09:27:57vitjathat was just for try
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09:28:50vitjamin value it works is 32
09:29:15vitjaI did't tried non pow of 2 values
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09:31:21JdGordonhmm... has anyone tried running in the sim in osx?
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09:31:50linuxstbJdGordon: I have in the past, but not recently...
09:32:30JdGordonit doesnt work anymore.... it loads but becomes unreposive... I have to force quit it
09:32:52linuxstbHas it worked for you previously?
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09:33:21JdGordonthis is the first time I'm trying in at least 6 months... checking an old bug report
09:33:47JdGordonterminal says we are using an old api and should use Quartz instead of QuickDRaw
09:34:07linuxstbMaybe update the libSDL then?
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12:14:29bertrikAnyone interested in some c200/e200 radio testing?
12:14:52bertrike200 testing I mean
12:16:01advcomp2019bertrik, what kind of radio testing?
12:17:08bertrikadvcomp2019, some people have trouble with the radio disappearing from the root menu. I'd like to try some things to see if it makes the problem worse or better
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12:19:39advcomp2019i have not ran into that yet myself but i have had another radio issue tho
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12:24:30advcomp2019bertrik, the issue that i have with the radio is they are sometimes off frequency by 0.05 or 0.10MHz
12:25:49bertrikadvcomp2019, I'm not looking into that right now
12:26:49advcomp2019yea but i could try using my e200 and see if i can help you out tho
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12:34:28bertrikadvcomp2019, can you try out this patch and see if it changes anything w.r.t. fm radio detection: http://pastebin.ca/1091677
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12:39:34advcomp2019ok sorry.. i did not know it was going to be something with building a build.. i have not tried a putting a patch in place.. i should read up a bit more
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12:44:37Aveis there a way to remove the peakmeter totally? cant see it mentioned in the theme
12:46:04linuxstbJust don't include the peakmeter tag.
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12:49:24Avelinuxstb: yes but its not there in any of the themes I've looked
12:49:29bertrikadvcomp2019, ok no problem. BTW I do have some ideas about improving radio tuning accuracy, but I don't know if it makes a lot of difference
12:49:33Aveyet its there annoying me on the playback screen
12:50:16AveI think there's something wrong in my theme setup.. the playback screen doesnt even change as I change the theme
12:51:48bertrikAve, that's a common problem, something changed in the WPS syntax, see also http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=17507.0
12:52:46Aveoh ic, well I had a problem in nighty build so I did my own svn update and built from there
12:53:18Aveoh noes, ok thanks
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13:08:54Aveturns out %pb definition was and is the problem
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13:25:48BigBambibertrik: I don't use my e200/c200 often enough to have noticed if the radio periodically disappears, but if you would like I can test patches to see if they work etc
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14:41:51bertrikBigBambi, thanks for the offer. I never experienced a radio problem myself on my c200 (but I also didn't always check very carefully). I looked at the code yesterday and found some suspicious looking things, but after a closer look they look quite harmless.
14:42:57BigBambiOK, well let me know if you do
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15:18:21BigBambiAnyone know what "unported" means/might mean in the following "Creative Commons Attribution - Share Alike 3.0 Unported license"
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15:40:26funman_In arm922t description I see that it has 2 coprocessors: cp14 & cp15
15:40:54funman_are they shortened to 'p14' and 'p15' are thos are different coprocessors ?
15:41:04funman_or are those*
15:42:21funman_well it seem they are just numbered, the prefix means CoProcessor or Processor
15:42:30*domonoky thinks "unported" in this context means that its the generic international version, and not a version for a specifc country/language
15:44:42BigBambidomonoky: Could well be :)
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15:51:31JdGordonis rb.org down?
15:51:53LambdaCalculus37The main site is working here.
15:51:53BigBambiworks here
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15:54:03*JdGordon cant get thourgh :(
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16:02:19funmanrecovery mode on sansav2 is obtained by briding the WP# pin of the NAND flash
16:02:45funmanunfortunately on the Clip I don't see where it could be bridged :/
16:03:14funmanhttp://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/images/sansa-clip-disassembled/sandisk-sansa-clip-disassembled-13.jpg < clip's nand flash
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16:04:40bertrikoh, I thought most flash chips were pretty similar
16:05:11funmanyes but then they can do weird things on the pcb's circuit
16:05:38funmanthe standard says "when cleared to zero, the WP# signal disable flash array program and erase operations"
16:06:14funmanI find strange on the e200 (http://flickr.com/photos/90053035@N00/2495460818/in/set-72157605072639496/) you can get the desired effect by bridging it (that would mean the signal is 1, no ?)
16:06:27bertrikbut you can access all flash chip pins, right, why would you need to know what happens on the pcb?
16:06:53funman"can access", I could if my hands were 10 times smaller ;)
16:07:12funmanI do not have any electric equipment
16:09:16bertrikdo we have the data sheet of the flash chip?
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16:10:08funmanbertrik: I believe (hope) they use the common wiring
16:10:08funmanONFI
16:10:08funman48 pins
16:11:57kugelJdGordon: Someone uploaded a new version of the pf patch
16:12:46JdGordonoh goody
16:13:02JdGordonif my net didnt suck so much I'd check it out
16:13:11kugelHe said he fixed your issue
16:13:51JdGordoni see...
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16:15:36bertrikfunman, maybe you can just short it to a pin immediately next to it
16:15:51JdGordonkugel: my dns seems to be fubar so can you pastebin the updated patch for me?
16:16:02linuxstbBigBambi: I think "unported" means it's not ported to any particular jurustiction.
16:16:42kugelJdGordon: http://pastebin.ca/1091781
16:16:46BigBambilinuxstb: Cheers - domonoky thought that too, so I'll go with that
16:17:07linuxstbAh yes, I missed his reply...
16:17:21funmanit's next to write enable signal
16:19:52bertrikyeah, maybe a bit dangerous
16:20:25JdGordonkugel: :) its working... now what were the changes?
16:20:35bertrikthe other one is VSP3, an unspecified vendor specific signal, nothing may be connected to it
16:21:08bertrikcan we figure out exactly which pins are shorted in the e280v2 pic?
16:21:41kugelJdGordon: great!
16:21:58JdGordonkugel: actually.. if you have the bmp resize patch in there... why not resize the cover for the track listing screen if there is room? :)
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16:22:28JdGordonhmm.. no it didnt work so well... almost none of my covers is showing
16:23:01bluebrotherLlorean: the forums don't use the same favicon as the main website −− can we change that?
16:23:53kugelJdGordon: is every of your covers 100x100
16:24:47JdGordonyes
16:25:06kugelhm
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16:27:23JdGordonkugel: http://pastebin.ca/1091783
16:28:35Lloreanbluebrother: Should be able to, yes. I'll look into it when I get home.
16:29:16bluebrotherLlorean: nice :)
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16:35:10funman_woohoo I got a special mode on the clip
16:35:10funman_sadly it shows a 0mb hard disk
16:35:10funman_I had to short together PIN 17 & 18 of the NAND
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16:36:09LambdaCalculus37funman: It's progress. :)
16:36:55funmanI suppose sansa didn't want to use this feature, and so didn't allocate any room for the recovery mode
16:38:36kugelJdGordon: Is the database properly initialized?
16:39:05JdGordonshouold be
16:39:23JdGordonyep
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16:43:05kugelJdGordon: Regarding the resizing for tracklist. Currently, I only implemented the resize algorithm for initializing-time. The resizing which is used for zoom in/zoom out(at selecting an album) or the zoom option in the settings is another algorithm
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16:46:52funmanit works also by shorting IO pins
16:47:25bertrikfunman, so it's probably anything that makes the crc over the data read by the sansa bl fail?
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16:48:20bertrikor maybe anything that makes the flash id fail
16:48:46kugelJdGordon: weird, that it doesn't find all album art
16:49:44funmanbertrik: from what I read, it's a feature included in the SoC
16:49:59funmanit will use its own bootloader if it fails to read from nand
16:50:35funmansee http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=14064.msg127675#msg127675
16:50:45kugelJdGordon: What happens if you turn of resizing in the pf settings?
16:51:01kugel(and reinitialize)
16:51:13funmanmaybe the firmware updater of sansa recognize this device and issues commands to it to flash a correct firmware
16:51:33JdGordonkugel: no change
16:51:40*JdGordon going to bed
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16:51:47funmanI'll try that (I use virtualbox on linux to do usb device pass through till the virtual windows xp)
16:52:53*bertrik finds another inconsistency between voiced data and data shown on screen
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17:10:53SoapWho are the wiki admins?
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17:19:08BigBambiSoap: The Swedes I believe
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17:24:52bertrikwhat convention should rockbox use w.r.t. mebibytes vs. megabytes?
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18:31:22amiconnbertrik: Why does rockpaint not simply use lcd_drawline() ?
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18:55:23linuxstbamiconn: Looks like it does use lcd_drawline in places.... But it seems to keep it's own copy of the LCD contents in a "save_buffer", so is always drawing in two places.
18:56:01amiconnSounds... unnecessary
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19:10:37bertrikamiconn, I was not aware of that function, but in hindsight it sounds logical that it would be available
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19:13:37amiconnI wonder why rockpaint needs that backbuffer
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19:14:06amiconnI know it saves .bmp as well as loading it, but then maybe the screendump function could be used for this
19:15:34linuxstbIt seems to call a "restore_screen" function many times - after drawing UI things on top of the image.
19:15:51amiconnhmm
19:16:22linuxstbWhich simply uses lcd_bitmap() to draw a full-screen bitmap (the save_buffer[])
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19:16:47amiconnIt may be necessary to keep the backbuffer then. I'd probably go for simple memcpy()ing in this case...
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19:24:10linuxstbamiconn: Do you have a view on the bitmap resize patch in flyspray? (FS #5697). It basically adds the following function to the core (in apps/recorder/resize.[ch]): void resize_bitmap(struct bitmap *src, struct bitmap *dst)
19:25:43amiconngrr, clicking a FS# in mibbit has an unwanted effect...
19:25:57amiconnIt opens a new channel (because of the hash sign)
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19:28:49amiconnWell, the patch seems to do smooth resizing now. Can't say much as I don't have the possibility to test it right now, and there are lots of comments...
19:30:58amiconnI do agree that we need resizing in the core, and in fact it should imo have all of the following features: (1) Be smooth (i.e. no simple pixel dropping/ duplicating) (2) Be fast and compact. (3) Be available for all pixel formats which support album art (i.e. all depths >= 2)
19:33:48amiconn(3) shouldn't be difficult if it's done on the intermediate line buffer (that buffer is alwas 32 bit after unifying input data, before converting to the output format)
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19:38:13amiconnIt may be necessary to keep 2 intermediate buffers though (for averaging), and I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to keep them on the stack then (right now it is, but that's already ~1.3KB for the target with the widest screen (ipod video), and will become worse with some new trgets (m:robe 500, Onda))
19:39:28linuxstbAre you talking about resizing-on-load - in the read_bmp() function?
19:39:34amiconnyes
19:40:04linuxstbBecause that's not what the patch does... It implements a resize_bitmap(src,dst) function.
19:40:20amiconnHmm. Imho that's the wrong way
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19:41:53amiconnI think the main purpose is scaling down, and then you waste lots of ram if you resize after loading
19:41:53linuxstbYes, that's my view as well.
19:42:32amiconnA good "live" resizing algorithm is what we need
19:43:00amiconnbtw, I want one for the jpeg viewer as well, to do away with wasting screen space in the default view
19:43:22amiconnI also want (optional) auto rotation for best fit in the jpeg viewer
19:43:23linuxstbThe AA-related parts of the patch don't look very reliable - IIUC, it just uses the remaining part of the audio buffer as temporary storage, ignoring wraparound issues.
19:43:59amiconnhmm
19:44:15amiconnI will have a closer look tomorrow, when I'm back home
19:44:17linuxstbNico_P was going to look at the patch and comment, so I'm leaving that to him...
19:44:23linuxstb(the buffering issues)
19:45:08amiconnIf all the mentioned parts are implemented, it may be fairly easy to add jpeg album art support. If we want that, that is
19:45:23bertrikI read about a smart algorithm (from DDJ IIRC) that first scaled the image down to about the proper size (bigger than target, but less than 2 times) by scaling down in steps of 2 (easy, just average 4 pixels), then did a bilinear step. Because the image is at this point less than twice as big as it needs to be finally, the bilinear algorithm only needs to consider 2 input pixels for each output pixel.
19:46:03linuxstbamiconn: I think the general view is that we do want jpeg album-art support.
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19:46:59amiconnbertrik: The idea itself sounds good, but there is a fundamental problem: the scaling algorithm we need needs to work with only 2 (maybe 3, but as few as possible) original lines available at most
19:47:33amiconni.e. it will never have access to the complete original image at once
19:47:36linuxstbHow does jpeg decoder decode the image? i.e. in what order do the pixels come out?
19:48:14amiconnIt decodes in natural order, i.e. macroblock after macroblock
19:49:02amiconnBut the jpeg viewer *does* buffer whole images (starting with the 1/8 x 1/8 scaled one, or the biggest one that fits the display, whatever is bigger)
19:50:10amiconnThe advantage of using jpeg for album art would be that we don't need extreme scaling factors if we demand a sane limit for the input image, due to the possible "natural" jpeg downscaling
19:51:03bertrikScaling by 2^x should be easy to do on-the-fly
19:51:30amiconnbertrik: It's simple in horizontal direction, but not so simple in vertical direction
19:53:12bertrikAre we really that restricted w.r.t. buffer space?
19:55:13linuxstbSome targets are...
19:55:25amiconnOn most targets that support album art we aren't, but wasting resources can't be good
19:55:44tehpaperheh now theres an idea
19:55:49tehpapera snes emu for rockbox
19:56:09*LambdaCalculus37 thinks tehpaper is completely bonkers
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20:02:02bertrikLambdaCalculus37, tehpaper?
20:02:27tehpaperplay snes games on a mp3 player
20:02:55 Part amiconn
20:03:38LambdaCalculus37tehpaper: So you plan on emulating a 65C816 CPU, SPC700 chip, and the graphics chip, which is processor intensive already, on limited embedded hardware?
20:03:40*bluebrother has an idea: remove doom!
20:03:42LambdaCalculus37Good luck with that!
20:04:27kugellinuxstb: Regarding the bmp resize, am I wrong when I assume that the smoother the algorithm should resize the more it needs about to know about the image (i.e. the more lines it needs at live resizing before doing anything)?
20:04:33tehpaperall im coming up with is an idea, dont be a dick. how about give reason A B and C why it wont work well
20:04:43*kugel hopes he got it
20:05:57tehpaperif you can get a full emu on a nokia phone i cant see how much harder it would be to get it on a ipod
20:06:19peturtehpaper: then start coding :P
20:07:12linuxstbkugel: I guess it would depend on the algorithm. Graphics processing isn't my speciality, so don't ask me...
20:07:49linuxstbtehpaper: nokia phones have about a 400MHz CPU, the ipods Rockbox run on have a 80MHz CPU... (although it's dual-core)
20:08:37kugellinuxstb: The algorithm satisfies all of amiconn's demands, the only issue seems to be the live-resizing
20:08:47mcuelenaerelinuxstb: I don't think all nokia phones have a 400Mhz CPU, but at least they're indeed faster than an iPod
20:09:05linuxstbmcuelenaere: Don't spoil my argument ;)
20:09:13mcuelenaere:)
20:09:17LambdaCalculus37The Gigabeat F and S would possibly be able to handle it, but still...
20:09:29LambdaCalculus37Not many of the other targets can.
20:09:31linuxstbkugel: No, he said "that's the wrong way".
20:10:26bertrikas far as I understood, we can't load the image and then resize it
20:10:27kugellinuxstb: That's what I said.
20:11:35kugelbertrik: as far as I understood, we can, but it's not wanted
20:11:52kugelbertrik: the patch basically show that we can
20:12:56*bertrik looks up the patch again
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20:17:40bertrikas far as I understand (it could use some more comments), that patch also needs a big buffer containing the image in its original dimensions
20:18:46linuxstbYes, the resize function takes a pointer to the input bitmap, and a pointer to the output bitmap.
20:19:12bertrikso it's out of the question because amiconn indicated we can buffer 2 or 3 lines at most
20:20:16bertriks/can/are allowed to/
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20:41:26saratogafor a bilinear interpolator, theres no sense buffering the entire image anyway
20:41:31saratogayou only ever need 2 lines
20:44:24linuxstbAnd another advantage of doing it on load is that it can be done before the pixels are packed into the device's LCD format - so it will be much simpler.
20:47:51*bertrik wonders if you can do interpolation with some bresenham-like algorithm
20:48:24bertrikhmm, speed is not nearly as important as ram and code size though
20:52:52saratogabilinear should be about as fast and compact as you're going to get for a 2x2 point interpolation
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20:58:12bertrikbut I assume we also need some kind of anti-aliasing
20:59:25rasherLambdaCalculus37: The Spanish translation contains some omissions, as can be seen here: rasher.dk/rockbox/translate/problems.php?lang=espanol">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/translate/problems.php?lang=espanol (for example, LANG_UNKNOWN is translated by "Unknown")
20:59:53saratogabertrik: anti-aliasing is another word for interpolation
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21:00:04saratogain this case the AA is a linear interpolant
21:01:41LambdaCalculus37rasher: No problem, I'll start looking through it and making some notes on how best to translate.
21:02:03LambdaCalculus37One thing we should make sure of is that the Spanish translation is using Castillian Spanish.
21:06:31LambdaCalculus37rasher: I'll do some work on it tonight.
21:06:35*LambdaCalculus37 has to go for now
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21:10:14bertriksaratoga, oh no, it's definitely not the same
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21:16:09linuxstbSeems the bmp resize patch used to do it in read_bmp(), but the idak came along and posted his implementation, and no-one asked why.... (unless I missed it).
21:16:33*linuxstb thinks 202 comments is a bit excessive for one task...
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21:31:22kinteshhello
21:32:24SoapI know a native castilian speaker - do you want me to use him?
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21:32:36kinteshdosre it works on my philips mp3 video player
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21:33:22Soapno
21:34:14bertrikbluebrother, I'm trying to create dutch voice files in rbutilqt, so I added "-v dutch-test" as TTS options, but I get a segmentation fault. Is this supposed to work yet?
21:36:43bluebrotherbertrik: as espeak option?
21:36:58bluebrotherthat should work afaik. At least it shouldn't segfault ...
21:37:32bertrikbluebrother, yes, it segfaults in wavtrim when creating voice files
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21:40:08bluebrotherstrange. I just tried adding the same as espeak tts option. It doesn't work properly but at least it doesn't crash.
21:40:29bluebrotherwhich OS are you using? I'm on linux.
21:42:13bertrikI'm on ubuntu, calling espeak with option -v dutch-test works fine on the command line
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21:43:30bertrikoh, it runs better with quotes around it
21:44:13rasherpreglow: the Norwegian translation seems to be using "" rather than none, almost all over the place.
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21:44:49ElChorristohi
21:44:54bluebrotherbertrik: quotes around the complete string?
21:45:19ElChorristois here one of the rockbox creators?
21:45:34bluebrothernot really ... a bunch of 'em
21:45:36bertrikquotes around -v dutch-test so it looks like "-v dutch-test" in the input box
21:45:55bluebrotherhmm, then that text should get automatically quoted.
21:46:48ElChorristomaybe they are intrestet: Theres is a tool to modify the iPod Touch firmware..maybe the can write a rockbox for it now. the tool is called "pwnage (Mac) and winpwn (windows)
21:46:57ElChorristo*interested
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21:48:23bluebrothersaid and leaves. Wow.
21:49:09*mcuelenaere thinks the buildserver is stuck again
21:49:11goffa_maybe he was pwned?
21:49:50BigBambiApple got him
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21:52:52zePh7rhi. I'm trying to submit a new lang file but tracker doesn't seem to be available...
21:53:57mcuelenaerezePh7r: the index page isn't available, the rest is
21:54:05linuxstbzePh7r: Some pages don't work (known issue), but you should be able to access the patch page directly - http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/index.php?type=4 - and then "Add new task"
21:56:29*domonoky does not understand why you would need to quote the options string for espeak, its already quoted in the template.. (see tts.cpp)
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22:03:00bluebrotherdomonoky: I guess you must *not* quote the options string −− looks like espeak treats the string as a single input if quoted
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22:03:34bluebrotherand I wouldn't be surprised if the other tts' would behave the same. Basically you're grouping all parts of the options into a single string ...
22:04:20bertrikHmm, I inputted -v dutch-test, but on the console it shows Failed to read voice ' dutch-test' (with a space as the first character)
22:04:30bluebrotheryeps: just tried it. If I run "espeak -v de" from the command line it works as expected. If I run "espeak "-v de"" it still works but the wrong language is chosen.
22:04:44domonokyhm, thats right.. should remove the quotes for the options in the template :-)
22:05:33bluebrotheryou only need to make sure the option string is getting passed as whole, but with QStrings there shouldn't be any issue about this ...
22:06:15bertrikIt seems to work without the space, like -vdutch-test or -vnl
22:07:06bluebrotherworks with space for me too (at least from the command line)
22:07:41bertrikbluebrother, yes it works here too on the command line, just not in rbutilqt
22:07:45domonokycan someone test with the quotes removed from the template ? ( i dont have espeak installed at moment)..
22:08:42bluebrotherheh: that won't work. QProcess::execute() wants a QStringList for the arguments, so you need to split it up.
22:08:49bluebrotherwill try, gimme a few minutes.
22:09:34domonokyno i give the complete string with options and all to execute, no stringList..
22:10:18domonokyso just removing the quotes from the template should work..
22:10:52bluebrotherbut that's strange: from the docs it's int QProcess::execute ( const QString & program, const QStringList & arguments )
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22:12:02domonokybluebrother: there is a overloaded version which takes the complete string with arguments..
22:12:21bluebrotheralso, ignoring the return code of execute() doesn't seem like a good idea to me
22:12:30bluebrotherdomonoky: can't find this overloaded version in the docs :/
22:12:49domonokyhttp://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/qprocess.html#execute-2
22:12:51linuxstbMaybe it only matters on some OSes.... But on Unix, the arguments should be a list (IIUC)
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22:13:46bluebrotherthat doesn't tell anything about the arguments −− it only has QString& program
22:14:05linuxstb"program is a single string of text containing both the program name and its arguments. The arguments are separated by one or more spaces."
22:14:07bluebrotherah, now I see
22:14:21*bluebrother didn't read far enough
22:14:55domonokyand checking the return code is difficult, as the TTSExes is a generic Executable TTS class, not all give the same return codes..
22:15:28bluebrothercan't we assume all executables giving the return code 0 if no error occured?
22:15:40domonokysomeday we should use the espeak libarary instead of the exe.. or even a built-in version of espeak..
22:16:16linuxstbYou would need to go GPLv3 for rbutil if you did that though...
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22:17:07bluebrotheryep, removing the quotes helps.
22:17:22bluebrotherwho wants to commit?
22:17:23domonokyarg, always this licence problems...
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22:17:32linuxstbdomonoky: I don't think it's a problem though.
22:17:59linuxstbsansapatcher/ipodpatcher are already "v2 or later", what is Qt?
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22:18:07domonokybluebrother: go for it..
22:19:33num1_awayI'm trying to add translations to the turkish language file, but I realized a lot of the translations that were already there had had their characters romanized,( c instead of ç and so forth) is it not possible to use unicode chars in the translations?
22:20:32linuxstbnum1_away: Yes, lang files can (and should) be utf-8
22:20:36domonokyit seems Qt is v2 or later, so should be okey...
22:20:36bluebrotherok, committed.
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22:20:51linuxstbMaybe those strings date from before Rockbox had unicode support.
22:21:12bluebrotherQt4.4 introduces a GPL3 license option IIRC.
22:21:48bluebrotherbut I'm not sure if I would want rbutil having a different license than rockbox itself
22:21:50bertrikHow much impact does it have for other languages when I change an english string?
22:22:11*domonoky checked a Qt source file, states v2 or v3, any later, approved (from trolltech and KDE) version..
22:22:36num1how does the <voice> tag work in language files?
22:22:39bluebrotherbertrik: in rbutil translations?
22:22:47bluebrothers/in/for/
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22:22:59bertrikbluebrother, no, for the rockbox firmware
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22:23:01num1I mean, where do you put the voice sound files and how do you give it a name for the language file to use?
22:23:04linuxstbbluebrother: I can't see it causing any issues. Rockbox itself is v2 or later, so will always be compatible with rbutil. And individual parts of rbutil could still be "v2 or later", just the whole thing is v3....
22:23:06*linuxstb sighs...
22:23:48Learbertrik: Changing the meaning of a string isn't good. The other languages would show the old meaning until updated.
22:24:27domonokynum1: the voice tag in language files is uses by our voicegeneration (buildsystem or rbutil) to generate the voiceclips via a tts engine.. .
22:24:59bertrikLear, it's not really the meaning that I want to change, but some C format converters, see http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9237
22:25:04num1domonoky: what happens if the tts engine doesn't support a given language?
22:25:30bluebrotherlinuxstb: true, but I'm not sure if I would be happy with such a split license situation.
22:25:46domonokynum1: then you should use another tts engine, or it will sound ugly.. :-)
22:26:44domonokytheoretically it also possible to generate a voice out of human speech, but thats too much work..
22:26:55bluebrotherbertrik: IMO we should use either IEC prefixes or SI prefixes, but always use the correct divider / abbreviation ...
22:27:14rasherdomonoky: it's not as much work as you'd think. I did it at one point, took about 5-6 hours total to record the samples, but I haven't been updating.
22:27:15bluebrotherdomonoky: well, if someone wants to do the job ... ;-)
22:27:33num1domonoky: isn't that what tts engines do anyway :D
22:27:57rashernum1: Sounds good that you're willing to do the Turkish translation - maybe it's easier to just start over, by editing a copy of english.lang and translating everything in <dest> and <voice>, since the current turkish translation is VERY outdated
22:28:02bertrikbluebrother, OK, the patch just tries to be consistent with the current rockbox convention (which may be wrong)
22:28:07rasher(and as you say, doesn't properly use utf-8)
22:28:45bluebrotherit has been discussed before, but I'm strongly in favor of being correct. 1024 bytes is *not* 1 kilobyte.
22:29:39Learbertrik: Well, not the absolute meaning, but the change is "big", so to speak. In this case, unfixed languages would show something like "Buf: %d.%03dMB 28.1 MB". Not fatal, but not pretty either. :)
22:29:50Bagderbluebrother: "A kilobyte (derived from the SI prefix kilo-, meaning 1,000) is a unit of information or computer storage equal to either 1,024 bytes (210) or 1,000 bytes (103), depending on context."
22:29:58Bagder(from wikipedia)
22:30:05rasherbluebrother: you've got my support. We should change instances to be 1000-based, or use the binary prefixes, as appropriate (I assume bitrates use powers-of-ten based prefixes).
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22:30:18rasherBagder: IETF, ISO and that other one disagrees.
22:30:23bluebrotherBagder: well, while that is common useage it's technically not correct.
22:30:26num1rasher: allright, I'll do that. Should I just translate and copy strings from dest to voice? Why are there two fields there?
22:30:43Bagderbluebrother, rasher: you can argue that, people will still disagree
22:30:50rashernum1: Because in some cases, the two may not be identical (or either one of them are empty)
22:30:51bertrikLear, so *if* I change it, I should do this to all languages, right?
22:30:53Bagderkilo is 1000 and 1024, face it
22:31:04rasherBagder: Only until we sort out the damage done
22:31:09bluebrotherkilo is 1000 and some people think it's 1024, including windows.
22:31:24bluebrotheras per *Standard* it's always 1000.
22:31:36Bagderbluebrother: "people" thought it was 1024 even before windows existed
22:31:50num1rasher: In what cases would they be different? It seems like you want the program to read what is printed on the screen
22:31:51Bagderin computer land kilo was always 1025
22:31:53Bagder1024
22:32:00rasherBagder: Not true either
22:32:02Bagderuntil people started to deal with the confusion
22:32:13bluebrother"computer land" is no standard ...
22:32:21BagderI learn kilo == 1024 in the 80s
22:32:26Bagderlearned
22:32:26bluebrotherit's just some kind of usage.
22:32:29rasherKilo has been 1000, at first, then it became either 1024 or 1000.
22:32:33Learbertrik: That would be nice, and it should be possible to figure out what the "MB" part is, even if you don't speak the language in question.
22:32:36rasherbluebrother: Computers weren't invented in the 80s though
22:32:45num1Bagder: It depends on whether you're a hard drive maker/marketer or a programmer :D
22:32:45 Quit maha (Nick collision from services.)
22:32:46bertrikas usual, xkcd has something to say about it too: http://xkcd.com/394/ :P
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22:32:51 Join pixelma [0] (i=pixelma@212.204.47.129)
22:33:01rashernum1: Perhaps you want to use an abbreviation on the screen, but spell out the full words
22:33:07Bagdernum1: I'm not convinced they've been consistent either
22:33:09LearBagder: Except when dealing with mass storage manufacturers...
22:33:13rashernum1: Or a scientist...
22:33:15linuxstbJust display it in bytes...
22:33:20num1rasher: lol
22:33:25rasherOr CORRECT, for that matter.
22:33:30num1bertrik: okay, thanks. That makes sense
22:33:32rasherWhich the hard drive makers happen to be.
22:33:35bluebrotherwell, I really don't care if use kiB or kB, but if we use 1024 as divider it should be kiB.
22:34:07bertrikKiB?
22:34:10*rasher already changed dansk.lang to do this in places where the translation can handle it
22:34:15rasherbertrik: 1KiB = 1024 bytes
22:34:18*num1 deals with the Intel Kilobyte every day
22:34:35bertrikyes, I know, but bluebrother called it kiB
22:34:55*bluebrother blames the shift key
22:35:06 Quit Mathiasdm ("Invisible Internet Project: http://www.i2p2.de")
22:35:14*domonoky wants this KiB = 1024 * sqrt(-i) from kcd.. :-)
22:35:26rasher(and I checked - the prefixes in the langfiles are *only* used in powers-of-two based contexts)
22:35:41bluebrotherI think it's sqrt(-1) ;-)
22:36:21*domonoky wants complex disk sizes.. :-)
22:36:36rasherKilo has consistently meant 1000 for many hundred years. It has never consistently meant 1024, even within the realms of computing, for the past 40 years. Ising kilo to mean 1024 is sloppy and bad.
22:36:59rasherSomething that could also be said for my typing.
22:37:12linuxstbrasher: It's consistently meant 1024 when dealing with numbers of bytes, at least in my mind...
22:37:45bluebrotherbesides, the binary prefixes were invented several years ago to end this confusion. Unless we use them the confusion won't get better but only worse, especially for users.
22:37:49rasherlinuxstb: That's not what reality has to say on the matter. Harddrive makers for one, transmissions speeds for another.
22:38:05bluebrotherlinuxstb: just think of network speeds −− in that context it was always 1000.
22:38:09*num1 thinks defining capitalization to change meaning is retarded and opening the door to misunderstandings
22:38:09linuxstbTransmission speeds are in bits
22:38:46rasherlinuxstb: do you really think we should base our prefixes on bits vs bytes, and expect everyone to be on the same page?
22:39:13rasherFact is, when you see KiB, you *know* what is meant, the same can't be said for kB
22:39:31*bluebrother really doesn't understand why it's so hard to simply switch to IEC prefixes
22:39:39bluebrotherit only makes things clearer.
22:39:42rasherAt least not until people start using the binary prefixes
22:40:05rasherRight, IEEE-1541, ISO/IEC-80000 is what I meant
22:40:05bluebrotherwhich is generally a good thing.
22:40:19linuxstbrasher: I didn't say that. I just said that in my mind, MB, KB etc are binary, and have been for the last 25 years since I started using computers.
22:40:38rasherlinuxstb: But it's not true though. You constantly have to stop and think.
22:40:59bluebrotherbuy a 80GB harddisk for your dap of choice ...
22:41:08rasherOn top of using a different definition of scientific terms than what the rest of the world
22:41:17*domonoky has no problem with changing to display KiB instead of kB.. changing to /1000 would be bad..
22:41:23bertrikMB and kB were always very clear to me until harddisk makers started to cut corners
22:41:24rasherI really don't understand why people don't want to fix it
22:41:30linuxstbNo I don't. I know the exception of disk manufacturers.
22:41:58bluebrothermaybe you know, but how about users? They are constantly confused.
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22:42:34num1"Gain" (LANG_GAIN) means the eq/recording volume?
22:42:59rasherI really don't see why admitting that we're not using the terms in their *actual meaning* is such a problem, and moving on to use the proper terminology is an even bigger problem
22:43:01bluebrother"help! My 20GB DAP shows only 18.something in explorer!"
22:43:13rashernum1: Correct, amplification
22:43:24num1lol @ bluebrother
22:43:42bluebrothernum1: unfortunately this isn't uncommon among users.
22:44:07bluebrother"something is eating up my disc space, explorer doesn't show what I've paid for!"
22:44:15domonokyjust screw those users, we dont need them ! *haha* :-)
22:44:34*bluebrother hears some evil laughter :o
22:44:39 Quit Maha` (Remote closed the connection)
22:44:40bertrikthe men-in-black confiscated it to spy on you
22:45:17rasherbluebrother: I find it somewhat ironic that harddrive makers have been forced to write a fairy tale to compensate for Windows being wrong. "Some space will be used for system files and might not be available for you"
22:45:53bluebrotheriirc gnome also shows binary prefixes ... why can't we do?
22:46:07*num1 creates some wierd-ass disk format that stores the partition table and such on a *different* disk, and then sells harddrives marketed as not ripping you off and giving you all the space you paid for
22:46:27bluebrotherrasher: true. But eating up 1.something GB of a 80GB or so HDD is really much system ;-)
22:46:42rasherbluebrother: As far as I can tell, the answer is "everyone understands this", apparently.
22:47:17bluebrothersure ... windows also reservers (amount of memory + a bit) on my disc for hibernating whole the time
22:47:46bluebrotherso this can get quite a bit of space. But it doesn't address the issue itself.
22:47:58num1well linux has swapfiles, so this isn't an only windows thing
22:48:15peturI think they mean the partition structures, like the MFT
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22:48:45num1petur: that was the "and such"
22:49:33peturhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Metafiles
22:49:39petur(for windows)
22:49:41rasherpetur: I don't think they mean anything in particular. They just have to put *something* there. Remember, they were sued (and lost, though I don't know where) for using scientific terms correctly (!)
22:51:25 Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst)
22:51:56bluebrotherI've seen newer hard drives having an explanation like "GB means 1 millin bytes" printed on them
22:52:06bluebrother/millin/million/
22:53:09bluebrotherstill, I'd really like to see Rockbox using correct terms, regardless if this means changing the prefix or the divider.
22:53:23XavierGrI have to agree with linuxstb and Bagder on this, while the ISO kilo is definitely 1000, I've always knew that in storage a kilobyte is 1024 bytes. That's what I've been constantly encounter except storage manufacturers
22:53:56peturbluebrother: most drives have had that on their label for years now
22:54:12rasherXavierGr: Why is it a problem to adjust that KiB *definitely* means 1024 bytes, rather than kB *probably* means 1024 bytes?
22:54:16rasherWhy cling to this uncertainty?
22:54:39bluebrotherXavierGr: only because it has been used that way doesn't make it more correct. And we have a correct way since several (!) years now, so what's the point in not following it?
22:55:29*petur thinks KiB, MiB,... sound silly
22:55:37linuxstbI accept the logic of using KiB, I just don't like the way "KB" has been stolen from me by marketing people...
22:55:46linuxstbAnd I agree with petur...
22:55:52XavierGrrasher, bluebrother: well other than that some users might not be used to KiB, I don't find a reason not using it. Though it would be silly to use kilo as 1000 in this context
22:56:07peturAND it uses 50% more bytes to store!
22:56:16XavierGrpetur: rofl
22:56:38*bluebrother hands petur some bytes
22:56:58*petur wonders if they go with his current beer
22:57:08rasherlinuxstb: Stolen by marketing people? Would you listen to yourself! You've been using the *factually and objectively wrong* terms the entire time, and now you complain that you don't want to use actually correct terms because that's what marketing guys do?
22:57:13*rasher boggles
22:57:34bluebrotherXavierGr: using KiB is even an advantage IMO −− people won't expect it to be the same as the kB that's printed on their disc (ok, this would rather be GB ...)
22:57:53peturin the early days, KB *always* meant 1024 !
22:57:53XavierGrso yeah I wouldn't mind seeing KiB and keep the /1024, but it would be very confusing to change it to /1000 and keep KB
22:57:59linuxstbrasher: No, I've always been taught in computing that the multiplier was 1024. Which makes sense, because that's the natural unit.
22:58:12bluebrotherpetur: true, but we aren't in those early days anymore ;-)
22:58:25rasherpetur: That's not true either.
22:58:27*petur heads for the time machine
22:58:27bluebrothereverything was better in the past *snif* ;-)
22:59:03rasherOne of the relevant wikipedia articles references very early material using powers-of-ten prefixes
22:59:07XavierGrdamn storage manufacturers and their evil marketing tricks
22:59:21XavierGrrasher: in computing?
22:59:27rasherXavierGr: Certainly
22:59:41num1maybe we should use KB to mean 1000 and 0xKB to mean 1024 :D
22:59:52bluebrotherdamn IEC creating binary prefixes! Those bastards, only striving to end this wonderful confusion!
23:00
23:00:11bluebrotherdisplay the space as hex value?
23:00:12rasherXavierGr: bitrates should (continue to?) use Kbit/s
23:00:30peturlet's go octal
23:00:33*bertrik thinks kibi and mebi sound silly too and can't remember the last time he heard someone using it (except for discussions how silly it is)
23:01:02bluebrotherwell, is 128KBit 128*10^3 bytes or 120*2^10? AFAIK it's 10^3 so this is correct.
23:01:02rasherbertrik: you rarely need to be very precise in speech, so you can keep using your imprecise units if you like
23:02:06num1What does LANG_SCANNING_DISK "Scanning disk..." mean? Are we looking for something on the disk?
23:02:16linuxstbrasher: So do you always write MiB etc?
23:02:29rasherlinuxstb: I try to, whenever it makes sense
23:02:52linuxstbWhen doesn't it make sense?
23:02:55rasherIt's really very rarely an issue
23:03:25rasherlinuxstb: if you're giving the size of an mp3 for example, using MB doesn't matter, because you're being awfully imprecise anyway
23:03:26domonokynum1: this is shown when dircache and/or the database scanns the disc for new/changed files, i think
23:03:56rashernum1: it's not a search, but a look through the disk to "visit" everything
23:04:30num1rasher: to "visit" everything?
23:04:37 Quit avis (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:04:43rashernum1: inspect all files
23:04:56XavierGron a sidenote, anyone tried to battery benchmark a gigabeast?
23:05:11num1okay, I'm gonna translate this one as "Checking the disk"
23:05:15XavierGrmine got only 6 hours with rockbox, haven't tested the OF yet.
23:05:58rashernum1: you can also modify it later if you discover it doesn't make sense when using Rockbox
23:06:22num1rasher: that's a good point, thanks
23:06:37bertrikactually, I don't mind really what convention rockbox uses, as long as we're consistent about it
23:07:02rashernum1: A translation you're not completely sure about is better than no translation imho. Errors can be easily fixed
23:07:28bluebrotherI don't mind that either, but I want it to be correct −− which currently isn't the case.
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23:10:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:14:00rasherI wonder if it might be possible to get someone "proffesional" to do a human voicefile. It's "only" 600 strings.
23:15:24num1rasher: If someone spent the time to make a decent GUI for recording voice clips for rockbox it wouldn't be a bad idea.
23:15:57linuxstbrasher: Could be nice for 3.0... But then what languages do we pay for? (presumably we would need to pay...)
23:16:57num1Well, the people who are doing translations already are presumably fluent in the language, and you don't have to pay for them to talk into a can
23:17:23rashernum1: not everyone's got great voices
23:17:55linuxstbAnyone know how many words are in the English .lang?
23:18:01rasherI more or less abandoned my own attempt mostly because the result was quite awful (beyond the fact that you always think you sound funny)
23:18:26bluebrotherwell, an "awful" voice is rather subjective.
23:18:29rasherlinuxstb: wc -w says 1174
23:18:51rasher(on a text file with raw voicestrings)
23:19:10linuxstbHmm, then that would be £1174 pounds with the person I was thinking of...
23:19:34linuxstb(someone who did some British English voicing for Asterisk - http://www.enicomms.com/cutglassivr/ )
23:19:59rasherlinuxstb: that's rather a lot
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23:20:52linuxstbHopefully that price (1 GBP per word) is just for smaller jobs...
23:21:29bluebrothershouldn't it be rather easy to write a script that presents you a string, waits for a button, then records until next button press and use that recording?
23:21:41bluebrothermaybe adding a retry button too
23:22:15num1bluebrother: that's what I was thinking about
23:22:24rasherI found that reading 10-15 clips in one recording, then cutting it up in audacity was quite fast
23:22:37linuxstbIt would be easy to script it with Asterisk....
23:22:52num1even if some people had bad voices, if you made a gui really simple to use enough people would do the voiceovers that you could choose the best ones
23:23:09sin613i just gave my old boss a call. he does a radio show and might be willing to contribute. hopefully get a call back in a few minutes
23:23:46bluebrothermake it a contest ;-)
23:24:28num1lol, winner gets 10% of our income, bty we don't have any :D
23:24:54rasherWe do, actually - donations
23:25:26scorchecould always see if a geeky celebrity to do it pro bono ;)
23:25:47rasherWil Wheaton or something
23:26:19sin613maybe a geeky musician
23:26:29sin613who already gives away music
23:27:03scorchehasnt Robin Williams been seen around Linux conventions?
23:27:08num1Jonathan Coulton's given away a lot of his music, and his voice's pretty good
23:27:35 Quit desowin ("KVIrc 4.0.0 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/")
23:28:23rasherMusicians are probably even more likely
23:28:28sin613the good thing about musicians is that you've got voice talent
23:28:38rasherAnd the equipment
23:28:52sin613yeah
23:29:02sin613and more than likely the know-how
23:29:31rasherThey don't even have to do editing. They could just record the entire list in one giant take, and I'm sure we could take care of the editing
23:30:54sin613it would likely be better that way
23:31:16zei've got equip and knowhow... dunno bout the voice though, but i could to a test later and see if anyone likes it
23:31:34sin613nice voice mic?
23:31:39zeyeah
23:31:43rasherze: I've a script that produces a clean list of strings
23:31:45 Quit snoh (Remote closed the connection)
23:31:59sin613what model?
23:32:01rasherze: FS #7650
23:32:07zeoktava mk219
23:32:11num1rasher: In one giant take? You want to sit in front of a mic for 1174 lines? that's almost 20 minutes stright!
23:32:43sin613another possibility would be asking someone from a popular tech or recording podcast
23:32:44rashernum1: well they could pause or do a couple of takes :) I just mean that they don't have to do the boring work of cutting it into tiny chunks
23:33:10rasherThere are plenty of good options, really
23:33:34sin613podcast producer would be great since it would likely increase exposure for rockbox
23:34:16sin613people from other countries might be able to locate podcast producers in their native toungue to serve as voice talent
23:34:32rashersin613: a good point
23:35:06sin613it's a given they'll already have the equipment, the voice, and the know-how
23:35:24bertrikwe'll never get that done before 3.0 unless we delay it
23:35:27sin613if they get credit and more traffic, they'll likely do it gratis
23:35:50rasherbertrik: Luckily, voicefiles can be added retro-actively
23:35:54BigBambiThere are people that do podcats with highly annoying voices :)
23:36:00BigBambipodcasts too
23:36:17rasherBigBambi: I'd wager it's most of them!
23:36:24BigBambi:)
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23:36:57sin613that's true, but there are many out there with good voices
23:37:24BigBambiIt'd be nice to have for e.g. English a couple with different accents too
23:37:27bluebrothernow we need to delay 3.0 ... ;-)
23:37:36BigBambie.g. UK, US, Aus
23:37:57sin613the voice files weren't going to bundled with the release, were they?
23:37:59 Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008072820]")
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23:38:25bluebrotherno, you download it separately.
23:38:26kugelHmm, just got a giant time out without noticing
23:38:41sin613so will it matter if they're released at the same time?
23:38:45bluebrotherbut there is a remaining issue: rbutil only installs the most recent voicefile, there is no selection.
23:38:55kugelI already thought there was no talk here since 3 hours
23:39:03sin613if only there were some way to get at the source and change that... j/k
23:39:04*petur posts another recscreen patch and nudges pixelma
23:39:06domonokyif we really want this, we should do some modifications to our voicebuilding script, so that we can easily regenerate the voicefiles from the source wavs..
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23:39:36bluebrotherdoesn't the voice script already allow for a voice pool?
23:39:39rasherdomonoky: it's not hard to do with a simple wrapper script that calls the buildsystem - see FS7650
23:39:40linuxstbbluebrother: Does rbutil still (I think the wx version did) have an option to choose a Rockbox release when installing?
23:39:50bluebrotherlinuxstb: yes.
23:39:59ImaginalWhen I click through database-> recently added, nothing shows up. How do I make this feature work?
23:40:10bluebrotherImaginal: initialize the database.
23:40:28bluebrotheror update it if you already have initialized. Keep in mind that you need to reboot after initializing the database
23:41:24Imaginalbluebrother: the database has been initialized. I can browse other options, and autoupdate is turned on. I frequently reset it
23:41:51bluebrotherreset what? The database?
23:41:57Imaginalthe ipod
23:41:58linuxstbbluebrother: There's also the manual as well...
23:42:12bluebrotherlinuxstb: true ...
23:42:28BigBambiImaginal: Why do you reset often?
23:42:35linuxstbImaginal: resetting (holding MENU+SELECT) is like pulling the plug on your PC. You should do a clean shutdown (hold PLAY for a couple of seconds)
23:43:42Imaginalunderstood. I meant that I've been changing a lot of things with it that require resetting, so it has been reset since initializing and updating
23:44:17bluebrotherImaginal: changing options in Rockbox *never* require a *reset*. They require a *reboot*, which means you need to shut down cleanly
23:44:20linuxstbWhat requires resetting?
23:44:27bluebrotherotherwise you can expect problems.
23:44:30BigBambiI can't think of anything tht needs a reset
23:44:43Imaginalhmm. cool
23:44:48BigBambi]If you reset, rockbox doesn't get chance to write the status to disk
23:44:59 Quit jhulst (No route to host)
23:45:08bluebrotherresetting is almost *never* needed.
23:45:41*bluebrother sighs. Once you disclose the reset procedure users tend to use that all the time
23:45:50Imaginalbut recently added seems like something the involves the transfer time, and would be writter at the beginning of the transfer
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23:46:13BigBambiThe disk isn't spun up on every track change, that would kill battery
23:46:57BigBambiMost things are kept in memory then written when the disk is spun to read more music into memory. If you reset, the data held in memory never has chance to get written to disk (which happens as part of the shutdown procedure)
23:47:32linuxstbImaginal: It's hard to diagnose if there's a problem because you've been resetting your ipod. Try adding some files and doing a clean shutdown, and see if you still have problems.
23:47:54bluebrotherresetting the Ipod when not needed isn't a good idea anyway, regardless of the state of the currently running software
23:48:07*BigBambi just realised he didn't quite understand Imaginal's last sentence
23:48:08ImaginalI understand. I'll give it a try and get back to you. Thanks again
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23:56:21pixelmaI believe "recently added" needs the "Gather Runtime Data" option to be set. Not sure if it is in the manual but I think I read it on the DataBase wiki page
23:56:49pixelmableh, didn't see he already left
23:56:54*kugel agrees with bluebrother and rasher on the previous discussion on KB/KiB
23:57:12pixelmapetur: looking
23:57:42peturpixelma: maybe wait a moment, I seem to have a drawing issue in the ondio sim
23:57:47rasherpixelma: I added detection of wrong "" vs none on my language problems page
23:58:03pixelmarasher: nice :)
23:58:48rasherI don't think I'm going to change the logic on the translation page, because it really is translators not being awake, and at least like this, the string is kept, even though it's in the wrong place
23:59:00kugelHas anyone noticed the go-back-behavior of wps context menu items being very inconsistent?

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