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#rockbox log for 2008-08-17

00:01:00 Join fyre^OS [0] (n=fyre@cpe-68-173-161-20.nyc.res.rr.com)
00:05:09*linuxstb doesn't even want them in imported code
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00:08:51 Quit toffe82 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:10:44rasherGod invented diff -w for a reason.
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00:35:27*bluebrother spots domonoky
00:35:43*domonoky waves
00:36:24bluebrotherinterested in looking at my bootloader install rework status? I'd like to get that damn thing finished asap.
00:37:09domonokyi can take a look at it tomorrow...
00:37:40bluebrotherwould be nice
00:37:57bluebrothercurrent diff: http://www.stud.uni-karlsruhe.de/~uhcn/rockbox/rbutil/rbutil-bootloader-rework-4.diff
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01:17:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:43:42linuxstbrasher: Do you have (or know of) a script to sort a lang file into the same order as english.lang?
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02:07:38-->"delete quote test" received from xnate (n=nate@ppp-70-242-183-125.dsl.lbcktx.swbell.net)
02:08:26toffe82linuxstb: rasher: I know it is from microsoft, but you can download the microsoft terminology translation for free, it contains 40 languages and a lot of words
02:08:28toffe82http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=25018024-2DFD-4229-9763-05F78FEAF2FF&displaylang=en
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02:10:05toffe82so you can compare the words used in Rockbock with the "standard terminology"
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02:14:47toffe82at least it is a good dictionnary: "12" in english is translated "12" in french:)
02:14:50toffe82:)
02:17:14 Quit jhulst (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:18:51linuxstbtoffe82: Interesting. Although the Catalan column seems very empty...
02:19:07toffe82yes
02:20:51toffe82I think there is a more complete than this one, I had it before but don't know were it is and can't find it anymore on the microsoft site
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02:39:52toffe82linuxstb: rasher: you can check here too http://www.microsoft.com/language/en/us/download.mspx
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03:17:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:04:34scorche|shlinuxstb: not sure if you are still awake, but yes it was a legal thing...if we manually approve things, we essentially "had a chance" to search for copyright violations...the process should be as automatic as possible or if we do have some sort of manual selection (which is less desirable from a legal standpoint), it needs to be for technical purposes only in order to comply...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limi
04:05:01scorche|shsee
04:05:01scorche|sh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act for more info
04:05:57scorche|sh(it didnt all go through)...it is mainly about giving us an opportunity to see that copyright is being infringed and can be pointed to that we had prior knowledge of the infringement
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05:17:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:57:09holscherhow do i stop my the mp5 plugin on my ipod?
06:00
06:01:09advcomp2019what mp5 plugin?
06:01:23holschermd5 oops
06:01:43holscheris seems like it's running a md5sum on a lot of files... are the no way that i can turn my ipod off?
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06:02:48holscheron everything actually... every file on my full 80gb hd..
06:04:30holscheron the 10th try a hard reset worked...
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06:29:50carbrfHey guys, I was wondering if anyone had any idea on how to get an iTrip to work with Rockbox without hardmodding the iTrip.
06:30:16carbrfIf theres any addon's or software that will get it to work.
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07:00
07:07:01Soaphave you tried the unsupported build with accessory support?
07:07:12Soapor is this a "top mount" itrip?
07:07:33Soap(oops - (s)he's gone)
07:07:48LloreanIf it required a hardware mod it probably was.
07:08:01LloreanDidn't those require some fidgeting to get them to initialize?
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07:09:58SoapI'm thinking you had to "jump start" it by powering it on in Apple firmware, then supplying it with battery power (sourced through the hardware mod) while rebooting into rockbox. IIRC.
07:10:36SoapAs in Rockbox would provide power, but not the "start" signal.
07:11:07LloreanYeah, I think it was something like that.
07:13:49LloreanDo you have any accessories for use with the accessory build, or do you provide it without being able to use it yourself?
07:16:28SoapI have not a single one.
07:16:49Soapjust trying to get testers and feedback for the patch.
07:17:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
07:19:45Soapr/e the Nike Plus module might be more exciting.
07:20:14Soapno Doom if you don't exercise!
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08:14:00Blade5245k
08:14:35Blade5245So theres absolutely no hope for 2nd gen ipods -.-?
08:18:19amiconnPlease be more precise. 2nd Gen *iPods* are supported
08:18:36amiconn2nd Gen *Nanos*, however, are not
08:18:45Blade5245That would be what I meant
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08:18:47Blade5245thanks
08:19:05Blade5245sfkgfghfykjglcfhjkh O hate my ipod :[
08:19:07Blade5245I*
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08:27:38amiconnAnd no, it won't magically happen no matter how many people are asking for it. It needs someone with enough knowledge in programming and hardware who actually has a Nano 2nd Gen and really wants rockbox to make it happen.
08:28:15amiconnGiven the difficulties, probably more than one person, and it needs good knowledge in cryptography as well, as it seems
08:28:55Blade5245Yea, I know about it being encrypted :s
08:29:09Blade5245I just dunno why it hasn't been done yet.
08:29:30amiconnThings don't magically happen by themselves...
08:29:50Blade5245I know this...
08:30:26Blade5245You'd think someone would spend the time to do something others havent..
08:31:09Blade5245I asked if there was any program for the 2ndgen nano, and you said no, so stop telling me all this tech bs that idc about :\
08:32:25`2ROFL AMICONN OWNED BITCH GO SUCK SOME MORE DICK WHORE LOLLLLLL
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09:17:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:17:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:11:33JdGordonhas anyone claimed the md5sum unexitable bug?
12:12:08scorche|shabout 7 hours ago
12:12:51JdGordon? I mean is anyone going to fix it? or shall i?
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12:15:29n1sJdGordon: there's a patch in the tracker
12:16:39n1sin FS #9209 if you didn't see it
12:16:49JdGordonI did, which is why im asking :)
12:16:52JdGordonfixing now
12:16:58n1sgreat :)
12:17:19JdGordonoh wait, thats your baby isnt it?
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12:23:58*JdGordon should have actually opened the fs task... there is already a patch to fix it :p
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12:26:08nimaHello. Can I have write access to the Wiki? I have a theme I want to post
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12:27:57AquilaChillim sure there some kind of way to upload it or email to an admin or something..
12:28:29pixelmaJdGordon: the md5sum plugin is dionoea's IIRC
12:28:30nimaAquilaChill: I've just created an account, but apparently I need to ask an existing Wiki user here for write permission before I can actually do anything
12:28:39JdGordonpixelma: ah ok :)
12:28:44JdGordonnima: whats your wiki name?
12:28:50linuxstb num1_ Done
12:28:56nimaJdGordon: NimaKhazaei
12:29:00linuxstbs/num1_/nima/...
12:29:14JdGordonbeaten :p
12:29:40nimaThanks, guys :-)
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12:30:31Specshow would i install rockbox on the newer ipod nano
12:30:38nimaSpecs: They aren't supported, I think
12:30:43Specs=|
12:31:02Specsoh well
12:31:03linuxstbSpecs: You can't - Rockbox only works on the devices listed at the top of http://www.rockbox.org
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12:31:47Specsis a newer ipod nano version is development
12:33:23linuxstbNo
12:33:58Specsk
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13:11:26mcuelenaerehas anyone seen krz lately? he said he was going to commit FS #9277 some days ago, but nothing happened yet..
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13:27:26linuxstbrasher: ping...
13:27:56*amiconn now has a mirrored rockbox on his Photo
13:29:12gevaertscommit!
13:30:00*amiconn is testing various lcd controller settings in order to be able to implement optimisations and missing things
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13:30:31amiconnE.g. display flip (for which I need to find the vertical mirroring bit as well), and fast yuv blitting
13:31:12amiconnLater I'll need several testers: iPod Color (lcd type 1), iPod Nano and H10 big
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13:33:08rasherlinuxstb: ?
13:34:55linuxstbrasher: I've added an option to genlang to sort a lang file into the english order - do you think that's a useful thing to commit ?
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13:35:40*AquilaChill_ has a 1g nano
13:35:45amiconn:) Found the vertical mirroring bit as well (the first one I tried because of an educated guess)
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13:36:29Learlinuxstb: I think it'd be useful...
13:37:06rasherlinuxstb: Sounds good. I'm planning to add it to the tool I'm writing for my xml-langfile change. Maybe you should sort all languages that don't have patches pending?
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13:40:14amiconnHmm. While display flip isn't a new feature as such, it'd mean changing the manual for those targets which don't have it now
13:41:15linuxstbI wouldn't object.
13:41:38linuxstbIt's not a feature that's new to Rockbox, just to some targets...
13:42:02rasherI guess people have a different opinion on "freeze" than what I have. In my mind, it's "don't commit anything that runs the risk of adding bugs - only commit fixes to actual bugs"
13:47:51linuxstb(dragging in people from -community) - I've also noticed that Gnome, KDE and Apple UI guidelines all specify Title Case for menu entries etc, and Sentence case for dialogs. Which I think is what the original intention for Rockbox was.
13:49:14rasherPersonally I think title case should be wiped off the face of the earth, but I'll leave that decision to native (UK) English speakers
13:49:46linuxstbWhat about other languages? Is anyone arguing for title case anywhere?
13:50:11LloreanI'm in favour of title case for menu entries in English.
13:50:16LloreanI can't speak for any other language.
13:50:17n1slinuxstb: I'm not sure if it's the case but some strings may be used both in menus and splashes/dialogs
13:50:35linuxstbn1s: That's what I was about to tell Llorean...
13:50:44n1slinuxstb: I have never seen it used in Swedish and think it would be very strange...
13:51:30BigBambiNon-title case here
13:51:33BigBambi:)
13:51:42*BigBambi sees a UK/US divide
13:51:49rasherLlorean: Remember Rockbox is UK English
13:52:11Lloreanrasher: I don't know if it's a UK vs US English thing though.
13:52:16LloreanIt may be.
13:52:19*gevaerts redefines title case as normal case, and then votes for title case
13:52:31LloreanIs it "Save As" or "Save as" in UK apps?
13:52:37n1sLlorean: if you have time could you check on your nano if FS #7527 is fixed?
13:52:44BigBambiUK apps are few and far between
13:52:53BigBambiGenerally we have to put up with american spelling
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13:53:52BigBambiSo in summary, I don't know :)
13:54:05LloreanI personally think normal case looks very odd in menus in software.
13:54:12LloreanSince, to me at least, they *are* titles.
13:54:28linuxstbYes, but titles don't imply "title case".
13:54:30rasherUsing Title Case in the first place for titles, isn't universal
13:54:43LloreanBut it does seem pretty common in software menus.
13:54:55LloreanAt least, in terms of software I've used.
13:55:06gevaertsLots of software is buggy
13:55:09rasherLlorean: "Rockbox doesn't try to emulate other ..."
13:55:36rasherI wonder if Danish has any title case left... Time to craft a regex and have a look
13:55:40Lloreanrasher: Yeah but that doesn't mean you break away from common ways of doing things juts for the sake of breaking away.
13:55:50gevaertsYes, but is it common?
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13:56:31rasherMozilla apps do it, according to linuxstb KDE, GNOME and Apple's HIG specify it. BUT, those are based in US English
13:56:44rasherSo it's anyone's guess, I suppose
13:56:50LloreanBut since some strings would need to be duplicated to properly split title and non-title case to unique uses, it may be best to side with consistency and drop title case.
13:59:21BigBambiTo be honest, I'm not going to have a fit either way, but personally I would 'vote' for non :)
14:00
14:01:15*JdGordon votes for whatever is the least amount of work
14:01:29JdGordonor alternativly.. If I dont have to do any anyway, then the most amount of work :D
14:02:21Learn1s: I've seen title case in some Swedish translations. Looks weird indeed.
14:02:47nimaMultiple cases suck anyway. It's a terrible feature of English
14:03:33BigBambiI would argue it isn't a feature of English
14:04:39nimaBigBambi: Do all languages which use the Latin alphabet use both upper and lower case?
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14:04:58rashernima: I don't know of any that don't.
14:05:02BigBambinima: This probably belongs in #rockbox-community
14:05:22BigBambiBut, if you mean never use capitals that would be horrendous
14:05:34linuxstbLike the Rockbox website menu? ;)
14:06:06BigBambi:P - in general writing. Not starting sentences with a capital - urgh
14:06:21linuxstbWhat about non-English PC apps? Do they use also use title case?
14:06:34nimaBigBambi: It probably doens't belong anywhere :-P I think it'd be better to delimit sentences in a way that doesn't double the number of characters people would have to learn
14:06:43rasherlinuxstb: Nope, Danish apps don't use title casing
14:06:55linuxstbrasher: That's reassuring :)
14:07:14*linuxstb concludes this is a US-GB thing...
14:11:28*bertrik has a slight preference for title cas
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14:37:22rasherlinuxstb: I have a fixlang (php) script now that can do any combination of: sorting, copying voice strings, fixing empty scripts
14:37:36rasherrasher.dk/rockbox/translate/fixlang.php?lang=catala&cmd=voice">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/translate/fixlang.php?lang=catala&cmd=voice,empty,sort
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14:38:09linuxstbrasher: That gives me an error...
14:38:14kugelSlasheri: ping
14:38:34rasherlinuxstb: that would be my fault..
14:39:19JdGordonkugel: hey, I changed my mind about passing a parent viewport into the pitch screen :p
14:39:36kugelJdGordon: Hm why?
14:39:55JdGordonbecause nothing will do that for a while so the delta wont look so bad
14:40:02JdGordonassuming it changes it at all...
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14:40:47kugelJdGordon: Well, my custom list vp patch does it :P
14:40:48rasherlinuxstb: Should work now (I was not generating unique filenames, which hilariously broke if multiple people clicked at roughly the same time)
14:41:36kugelJdGordon: So, you want me to remove the parent feature?
14:41:45JdGordonarr... i dunno :p
14:42:02kugellol
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14:44:33JdGordonok, I'm having a look at it now...
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14:48:25JdGordonkugel: the statusbar is always drawn now?
14:49:03kugelJdGordon: No, it uses gui_syncstatusbar_draw
14:49:40JdGordonI can see that... its not being conditionally drawn if it fits?
14:50:09kugelJdGordon: this method only draws the statusbar if the setting is enabled, and it draws it on every screen
14:50:53JdGordonyes... but if its enabled then its always drawn.... thats 8 pixels which could be used elsewhere if its needed....
14:52:36kugelwell, I think the user actually wants the statusbar to be drawn if he enabled it
14:53:58JdGordonnot if there isnt enough room for it
14:54:55kugelTry it on your h300 and the remote (if you own one)
14:55:41JdGordonim using the sim
14:55:49JdGordonit works fine on the default font, but larger?
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14:57:05kugelwell, i think my optimizations for small screens are good. I rather remove some text than the statusbar
14:59:32kugelJdGordon: I think it's still fine with 9+18x18b.fnt
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15:01:34JdGordontry it with ter-20
15:01:37JdGordonit totallyt dies :p
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15:03:58JdGordonkugel: its almost ok actually... just remove the +-2% labels and it should work
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15:06:38kugelJdGordon: just modify the check "if (parent->width >= 65) " so that it depends more on the font size
15:07:40JdGordon1) thats not very useful... at least give a line number... 2) no, the icons should stay, the labels should go
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15:08:27JdGordonah, I see what your talking about
15:08:51kugelthe icons are always drawn
15:09:07kugelthe text not
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15:09:33kugelline 150
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15:13:40kugelJdGordon: I just see, line 153 should go before the if and the else be removed then
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15:19:37scottieI would like to install RockBox on my Sansa e200. I am confused about MSC/MTP/UMS.
15:19:52scottieThe manual says to run in MSC mode ...
15:20:09scottieI'm only able to USB mount my player as MTP ...
15:20:27scottie& the sansapatcher is telling me to use UMS mode!
15:20:29domonokyMSC = UMS = you see it as drive letter... MTP is the bad thing.. :-)
15:20:36JdGordonin the e200 settings you need to change it to connect with MSC
15:21:39scottieok, i'll try MSC mode (don't have cable handy at the moment). From memory, I could only mount my player in MTP mode. Is that unusual?
15:22:14advcomp2019MSC should mount because it is like a flash drive
15:22:22JdGordonits only unusual if youve told the e200 to use MSC
15:23:09scottie:confused:
15:23:28scottieI changed the setting to MTP mode in the player, then I was able to successfully mount it under Linux.
15:24:16bertrikyes that is unusual, I think you remember incorrectly, mounting is typically associated with MSC mode, not with MTP
15:24:46JdGordonit needs to be set to MSC on the player
15:24:48scottieI've got my player here, in settings it's set to MTP ...
15:25:06scottieI've always used this mode.
15:25:18JdGordonthen thats why its not working
15:25:30scottiewhy what's not working?
15:25:38JdGordon[23:20:27] <scottie> & the sansapatcher is telling me to use UMS mode!
15:26:16scottieI just ran sansapatcher without my player mounted (I don't have my cable handy)
15:27:47scottieAnyway, I don't want to borrow trouble so I'll try MSC mode next time.
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15:28:31scottieWhat does "Never extract files to your player while it is in recovery mode." mean? (from manual)
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15:32:48scottiethx 4 hlp
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15:32:59JdGordonBigBambi: you use bookmarks do you?
15:33:10BigBambiI do
15:33:35JdGordonwanna comment on how im naming bookmarks which arnt easily named?
15:34:28BigBambiI'll think about it - generally I use them on audiobooks or albums, so it is just a directory and therefore fairly easy
15:35:02BigBambiI guess the problem is with ad hoc playlists with no physical playlist
15:35:07JdGordonI guess thats how most people use them?
15:35:14JdGordonand yes, bingo
15:36:53BigBambiI guess there are a couple of options - a dedicated store (directory or file), or stick them either with e.g. the first item in a playlist
15:37:31JdGordonthat second option doesnt sound very usable
15:37:40BigBambiNo, I agree
15:38:05BigBambiI would like to keep bookmarks as they are now where possible - i.e. not have a dedicated store for everything, but then it isn't too nice to separate them
15:39:05JdGordonthere is one downside to the change, if you run a .bmark it automatically stops playback, but if you cancel it resumes again so minor annoyance, but probably not a big deal
15:39:22BigBambiI don't like storing bookmarks in playlist files - apart from anything it makes synching annoying
15:39:38BigBambiJdGordon: I don't think that is a major problem
15:40:54BigBambiFor inram playlists (and I guess database playlists too), a dedicated store is the way to go?
15:41:18JdGordonyeah
15:41:24JdGordonnot really any other option
15:41:31BigBambiI can't think of one
15:41:32JdGordonDB could change thuogh
15:41:34n1shmm, the warning about recovery mode in the sansa manual install chapter is pretty weird and probably totally confusing if you don't know what it is...
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15:51:16rasherBagder_: What's the reasoning behind the "deprecated" keyword for strings? Surely setting it to "" should be enough?
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15:54:46linuxstbrasher: Do you know what "user:" is for? It seems to always be blank...
15:55:17rasherlinuxstb: It's for future use in seperating stuff for plugins/core
15:55:40linuxstbAh, so it should always be there? There's a few places it's missing in english.lang
15:56:34rasherYeah, I noticed. It probably should, yes
15:56:40rasherBut for now, it doesn't matter of course
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15:59:16rasherlinuxstb: you're missing some credit in catala.lang
16:00
16:00:01linuxstbTrue, I'll add myself on my next commit...
16:00:30linuxstbI'm now using diff to see the differences between the english.lang and catala.lang - any reason why I shouldn't add the missing user: lines to english.lang?
16:01:12rashernot really - I can do it now.. I've got a fix commit coming up (turns out "deprecated" is a keyword for strings - my tool didn't know that)
16:01:57linuxstbI've done it already...
16:05:22linuxstbShould I commit, or let you do it?
16:05:38rasherAh, thought you'd committed already - go ahead
16:06:49linuxstbOK, done.
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16:10:40bertrikdo the powermanagement thread and the GUI thread run on different CPUs or something?
16:12:15JdGordonno...
16:12:20bertrikif I monitor the current charge status from the View I/O ports debug menu, everything seems to work fine, but when I monitor it from the system/rockbox info menu, my state machine gets in a confused state
16:12:51*gevaerts would never program a confused state in a state machine
16:13:15JdGordonisnt that the usual "error" state?
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16:13:50rasherlinuxstb: I'm not sure genlang preserves the order of strings when updating
16:14:02rasherSo languages will over time get out of order
16:14:23rasherOr maybe it's my tool that does it
16:15:52linuxstbrasher: Yes, I was wondering how this happens...
16:17:43linuxstbLooking at genlang, it at least adds all new phrases in a random order - not the english order.
16:18:19linuxstb(and they're all added to the end)
16:19:06rasherYup, just confirmed it by removing a bunch of phrases from catala, running -u and comparing the order
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16:20:32rasherI'm still not convinced it's much of a problem, really
16:20:47linuxstbNot really, but it's nice to be able to do a diff with english.lang
16:21:06JdGordonanyone know where idle poweroff is handled?>
16:21:53*linuxstb makes a random guess - button driver?
16:22:36kugelJdGordon: anything to be done/left for pitchscreen?
16:23:42bertrikin handle_auto_poweroff in powermgmt.c it seems
16:24:09JdGordonkugel: just fix it so it handles narrow screens better
16:24:18rasherdiff -w −−side-by-side −−left-column english.lang catala.lang is rather interesting, I'll admit
16:27:27kugelJdGordon: well, just to remind you, it's even worse without my patch. I think the special case with such a large font can be counted as "user's fault" ;)
16:28:33bertrikmy problem can perhaps be explained by the behaviour of pp_i2c_send, I think if call it twice in a row, the second call may fail because the first is still busy
16:29:23JdGordonkugel: I know... but its very possible to have fonts/screen combos that would break it on the archos and remotes
16:29:36JdGordonanyone got 3g ipod?
16:29:40JdGordongot a *
16:31:09kugelJdGordon: how about font size < LCD_HEIGHT / 4 ?
16:31:27kugeland, how about just using sysfont in such a case?
16:31:40JdGordonthe problem is the width not the height....
16:33:06rasherkugel: Defaulting to sysfont doesn't work for non-latin scripts...
16:33:54kugelrasher: rec screen also falls back to sysfont on small screens
16:34:21JdGordonwe are trying to minimise this
16:34:29rasherDoesn't mean it works any better
16:35:06kugelso, no sysfont, ok
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16:36:15rasherIf at all possible. I'd say cutting a bit of text off is better than using sysfont
16:36:26JdGordonamiconn: you round?
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16:44:22bertrikmy problem must be multiple threads trying to manipulate the charging state machine, I tried using the charger_inserted or charger_status functions to keep the state machine alive, but those functions are called from several different contexts it seems
16:46:54bertrikcharger_status -> charging_state
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16:58:46amiconnJdGordon: yes?
16:59:45JdGordonare you the person to talk to about ipod 3g usb detection?
17:00
17:00:29amiconnNo, since I have no G3
17:01:11JdGordonok
17:01:24LloreanI don't think we have someone with a G3, do we?
17:01:41amiconnDerPapst and jhMikeS both have a G3
17:02:14amiconnUnfortunately they haven't been around lately
17:05:19 Nick JdGordon is now known as JdGordon|zzz (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
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17:29:04n1sLlorean: could you test something on ipod nano?
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17:30:41Lloreann1s: I'm afraid I have no clue where my Nano is at the moment. I tried to find it to check on that task earlier but it's not where I thought I was keeping it.
17:31:41n1sah, ok, I'm just annoyed by that task for some reason (and it's probably already fixed...)
17:31:49n1sanyone else with a nano around?
17:37:43n1shmm, weird. When I'm logged into the tracker all places displaying date/time instead display my nick...
17:38:08rashern1s: sounds like you've accidently edited the "display time" format
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17:39:30n1sah, yes that was it, odd
17:43:44Soapn1s, I'll check FS$7527 in a few hours - my nano is asking for an iTunes restore - going to the office to do so.
17:44:10n1sSoap: great :)
17:45:15Soapand amiconn - when I get back I'll be able to test any LCD controller changes you have ready.
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17:56:38n1slinuxstb: what do you think about releasing new ipod bootloaders for the release (we have FS #8901 marked as "Due in version 3.0" and it is apparently already fixed in svn)
17:57:24bluebrothergetting out released iriver bootloaders would also be nice, but I doubt the remaining issues will be fixed in time
17:58:02n1syes, iiuc there's some outstanding issue blocking that but not for the ipods afaik
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17:58:42n1sand the ipod mini cf mod seems fairly common so supporting it would be good :)
17:59:00bluebrothertrue. I'll do that mod myself eventually ...
17:59:08bluebrotheror at least I want to do ;-)
18:00
18:00:33linuxstbn1s: Yes, it would make sense. New sansapatcher/ipodpatcher releases are also long overdue...
18:01:31linuxstbIs there a "to-do" list for 3.0 anywhere?
18:02:50n1sthere's the ReleaseTodo in the wiki
18:03:13*linuxstb wonders why not ToDo...
18:03:52linuxstbSo there are no "release-critical" bugs?
18:07:55n1sdon't think so
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18:11:24SoapI've seen no discussion on enabling the PP USB stack on non-Sansas. Has this been dismissed? Discussed?
18:11:36Lloreanlinuxstb: At devcon we decided a couple playback bugs were the only ones we considered critical enough to stop a release, and NicoP managed to fix them up miraculously quickly.
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18:12:34LloreanSoap: I think the feeling is that it's still not predictable enough in terms of whether or not you'll get a good connection.
18:12:50Lloreanlinuxstb: I don't think any new bugs have popped up with that level of critical-ness.
18:13:00bluebrotherLlorean: he only held the fixes back before devcon to fix them miraculously quick ;-)
18:13:46SoapThe "there is a hub which degrades signal quality to the point of connection resets" issue? Or are there others?
18:14:36LloreanSoap: I think that may be it. I'm really not certain.
18:15:18LloreanIs Rockbox at least rebooting consistently on USB connect these days?
18:15:42amiconnno
18:15:48bluebrotherlinuxstb: what do you think about "hiding" ipodpatcher / sansapatcher a bit? There's always those guys popping up at the forums using some random 3rd party installation instructions
18:16:24bluebrotherand simply moving the tools on the server would break all those tutorials, with the users hopefully using the official instructions instead
18:16:47LloreanPersonally, I'd rather have Rockbox USB enabled and not always connect then, if reboot-on-USB isn't consistent anyway.
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18:21:08Lloreanlinuxstb: There's also nearly 30 bugs in the tracker marked "Due in 3.0" but these are basically anything any dev felt would be nice to see fixed for 3.0 if at all possible.
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18:25:26saratogaJdGordon|zzz: (for the logs) I've got a mostly working Ipod 3G
18:25:43linuxstbbluebrother: Is that a real problem? I don't notice those posts very often, and the answer is simply to point them to the manual... I would expect some of them mirror ipodpatcher anyway.
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18:26:28bluebrotherwell, it was just an idea to invalidate those tutorials. Might be not worth the work, though.
18:26:47linuxstbIt will also invalidate genuine tutorials - e.g. for IPL.
18:27:30bluebrothergood point. But the old download could simply redirect to a website telling the users to check if they really need ipodpatcher.
18:27:50linuxstbI guess Bagder could tell us if there are many downloads of ipodpatcher via other sites though...
18:27:54bluebrotherbut that sounds too much hassle for too little gain
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18:31:17tge101can someone help me out with my 60gb ipod photo, all of a sudden it won't connect to my computer
18:31:59linuxstbSimpliest way is to start the Apple firmware first, then attach to usb.
18:32:15linuxstbOr force it into disk mode (hold PLAY+SELECT as it is starting)
18:33:04tge101it just shows an apple support website
18:33:45linuxstbSo you can't start either Rockbox or the Apple firmware?
18:34:44tge101it started to when i plugged it in, then the autoplay windows thing went for a second, now just this
18:34:55tge101i dont remember how to get the apple firmware up
18:36:15linuxstbI don't understand what you just said... When you start your ipod normally (nothing plugged in, no buttons held), what happens?
18:36:57tge101the apple startup logo comes up, then it shows an ipod with frowny face and an apple support website
18:37:52linuxstbTry pressing MENU+SELECT to reset, then _immediately_ press and hold SELECT+PLAY
18:38:23tge101i got the apple firmware up now
18:38:37tge101its just charging
18:38:59tge101should i do what you just said instead?
18:39:21linuxstbIt's hard to know how to help if you're doing random things...
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18:39:36tge101its showing on my computer now too, am i missing a file or should i just put the newest release of rockbox on
18:39:53tge101ok, i started the apple firmware like you told me to before
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18:40:30tge101thats the farthest ive gotten it to go so far, its showing in my computer now, but i cant get rockbox to go
18:41:22bluebrotherwhat exactly does "can't get to go" mean?
18:41:53linuxstbThere are two different things - the main Apple firmware (which is what you use to play music) and the "emergency disk mode", which is what you get if you hold SELECT+PLAY when booting. What are you in?
18:42:35tge101the apple firmware (i started it up and put the Hold on), i couldnt get the SELECT+PLAY to work
18:42:36linuxstbOn the Photo it's easy to tell them apart - the emergency disk mode is black and white
18:43:16bluebrotherselect + play only works during startup, i.e. immediately after you reset the ipod
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18:44:15tge101ive been in the emergency mode, i just cant get it to work
18:44:38bluebrothercan't get what to work? Emergency disc mode? Rockbox?
18:44:50tge101neither work
18:45:09bluebrotheremergency disc mode does work. It's "hard wired" in the ipod.
18:45:22tge101well im trying
18:45:27bluebrotherbut what's the exact problem with getting Rockbox running?
18:46:23tge101alright, now im in disk mode
18:46:31tge101thats what im trying to figure out
18:46:56bluebrotherhow have you installed Rockbox? What happenes when you reboot the Ipod?
18:47:25tge101now rockbox is running, its showing all my albums/artists, but none of my songs
18:47:39*bluebrother is close to giving up
18:48:15bluebrothercheck the "show filetypes" setting, and make sure the database is initialized if you've put your music on the Ipod using Itunes.
18:48:39tge101i put rockbox on a long time ago so i wouldnt have to use itunes
18:49:12tge101ive been using it exclusively for over a year, ive never had this problem, thats why im hoping someone has a solution
18:50:02tge101now, while its connected, its showing that the songs are all still on there, just on the ipod itself, while browsing, they dont show up
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18:55:50tge101k
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20:40:07Tatshfor the ipod nano, how do you shut it off manually?
20:43:22BigBambiThe manual is good for telling you what buttons do what, but I believe it is long hold of play
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20:50:11ejspQ: ZVM work any?
20:51:08Tatshthanks BigBambi
20:51:15Tatshi haven't used rockbox in a while, just got this ipod yesterday
20:51:26Tatshmade sure it was first gen and paid $70 for it
20:52:25BigBambiejsp: Do you mean does the ZVM work?
20:52:42Tatshhow come there's no tetris for the ipod nano? :(
20:52:45Tatshi had it on my mini
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20:53:11BigBambiTatsh: I'm pretty sure there is
20:53:18BigBambiRockblox isn't there?
20:53:25ejspsorry: unsupported build :)
20:53:26Tatshoh yeah that's what it's called
20:53:27Tatshlet me check
20:53:33 Part ejsp ("Leaving")
20:53:59Tatshi nearly got hit by a car becuase of rockblox
20:54:28Tatshi was walking to class and didn't look to cross the road meanwhile i was playing rockblox
20:55:10BigBambiTatsh: In that case I'd suggest a) More care and b) staying on topic :P
20:55:21Tatshit's kind of on-topic :P
20:55:31BigBambiNot really
20:55:46BigBambiAnyway, I'm glad you survived :)
20:56:08Tatshscary moment, i learned from it
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21:01:16SoapWorkn1s: FS #7527 does not appear to be an existing bug on my iPod Nano with SVN 18300
21:02:06n1sSoapWork: thanks for testing, will you close or should I?
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21:07:09 Nick num1_ is now known as num1 (n=brian@unaffiliated/num1)
21:08:16SoapWorkn1s: I do not believe I have the power to close.
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21:23:32fmlCan somebody please tell me where the backlight on key press is handled? What file should I look at?
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21:51:17linuxstbfml: firmware/drivers/button.c
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22:02:07saratogaI'm curious what people think about lowering the core clock on the Sansas to 24MHz
22:02:29saratogathey have an extremely fast display and no hard disk, so theres no noticable difference in UI performance or buffering time like on the other PP targets
22:03:00saratogaI tested an MPC album which runs unboosted and the GUI seemed normal, and bubbles remained playable while listening to music
22:03:09fmllinuxstb: thanks! I still want to try to implement the flexible way of turning the BL on or not depending on the key pressed.
22:03:20saratogathis would increase battery life for FLAC, MPC, Ogg and Vorbis users
22:03:32saratogasorry "Ogg and WMA users"
22:06:10gevaertssaratoga: I've never tested this, so I have no opinion on the technical side, but I wouldn't do this before 3.0
22:07:10*gevaerts is on the cautious side of the freeze debate
22:09:28saratogagevaerts: yes I won't be doing that soon
22:10:06saratogai'd really like to see MP3 bettery optimized before doing it, since thats probably what most people use
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22:12:11gevaertsOnce mp3 can run at 24MHz, I think there's no discussion
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22:17:42saratogathats going to take some real work
22:17:52saratogamp3 is slooooow on arm
22:18:21*gevaerts knows nothing about codecs, so he can be optimistic
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22:28:26bluebrotherdomonoky: have you ever stumbled across http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq13-apis.html ? Has been posted to qt-interest a few days ago and is quite an interesting read
22:29:02domonokyno. will read it now :-)
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22:34:16bertriksaratoga, I won't mind testing out 24 MHz
22:34:53crwlme neither
22:34:58bertrikis there a big difference in current consumption between 30 MHz and 80 MHz anyway?
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22:36:34*bertrik should be able to measure that himself now
22:36:54saratogabertrik: 1.33mW/MHz in my testing
22:37:44saratogaor rather thats what P_80-P_30/(80-30) gives me
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22:38:32saratogai'm actually not 100% sure if this is right, but I just changed the CPUFREQ_NORMAL define in system-target.h
22:38:48saratogaits what Buschel seems to do in his Filespray posts so I assume it works
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22:42:25amiconnsaratoga: Last time I tried, both ogg and wma needed a good deal of boosting on PP. So lowering the core clock won't help runtime for these formats, and neither for mp3
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22:43:27amiconnIt would only increase jerkiness. Even though UI *seems* to be fast at 24MHz, the differences between normal and boosted would become more visible
22:44:03bertrikthe software puts the CPU in sleep mode when possible, right?
22:44:33amiconnTry playing music that needs some boosting, then run oscilloscope and see what I mean. You'll probably see similar effects in jewels animations, choper...
22:44:48amiconnbertrik: Yes, but that's the cpu core *only*
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22:45:11amiconnThe other core will continue running, as will all the peripheral devices (lcd bridge, ata controller, ...)
22:45:51bertrikbut they are not affected by the boost
22:46:04bertrikI guess, or are they?
22:46:07amiconnThey are (well, most of them)
22:46:23amiconnlcd bridge runs from core clock, as does the ata bridge
22:46:33bertrikugh
22:47:07amiconnThe lcd bridge can be run from 24MHz, but for some reason this doesn't work on all targets using it (or maybe we just don't know which other bits we should adjust)
22:47:20amiconnAnd it's not desirable anyway, for speed reasons
22:48:12gevaertsActually, now that you mention it... Does file copying inside rockbox boost the CPU?
22:48:35bertrikgevaerts is thinking about the sd corruption problem because cpu is boosted when usb is active?
22:48:43gevaertsindeed
22:49:07amiconnI don't know
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22:49:52bertrikwe could simply boost the cpu in the debug menu for a sd transfer test
22:50:01amiconnAnd btw, I would expect glitches in certain PP peripheral devices when switching clock while transferring data, not when running continuously (whether boosted or unboosted)
22:51:03gevaertsbertrik: can you still reproduce the corruption?
22:51:05amiconnThat's the reason why the greylib on PP needs to boost the CPU - the mono bridge doesn't like to be active when a clock switch occurs. And boosting is the only reliable way to prevent clock changes without hampering performance
22:51:20bertrikgevaerts, sorry, never even tried to test it
22:51:34amiconnFor normal lcd updates this isn't an issue, but the greylib lcd updates happen from within an isr
22:52:03gevaertsI'll post a comment on the tracker asking for tests
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22:53:50bertrikit's really a pity that the processor clock and peripheral clocks are so tightly coupled
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23:13:17saratogai wonder if the large difference in power consumption between the Apple and Sandisk firmwares is just figuring out ways to work around the PP clock restrictions
23:13:27saratogawell that and codec optimization
23:14:49linuxstbWhat iis the difference?
23:15:46saratogalinuxstb: between the firmwares?
23:16:08linuxstb"the large difference in power consumption"
23:16:41*amiconn wonders how to even measure the difference between Apple and Sandisk OF
23:17:57bluebrothercomparing apples with disks?
23:18:06saratogalinuxstb: the Nano 1 G was rated for 14 hours off a 400mah battery, while the E200 gets about 20 hours off a 750mah battery
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23:18:33saratogai've tested the E200 with a DMM and confirmed that Sandisk's claim is about right
23:19:22saratogawhile I wouldn't be surprised if Apple pads their estimates a bit, thats still a very large difference in average current consumption
23:20:03linuxstbIt's different hardware though.
23:20:06amiconnThe nano has a significantly smaller display
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23:20:33saratogaamiconn: I tested with the display off on the E series
23:20:35amiconn..both in terms of pixels and physical size
23:21:42saratogaadditionally, comparing rockbox to the OFs, we beat the Sandisk firmware, but fall quite short of the Apple firmware
23:23:34bertrikmaybe apple uses the COP more efficiently. I was under the impression that our PP settings were at least partially rev-engineered from the apple firmwares
23:24:35saratogain theory we use the COP most efficiently by keeping it disabled and having a sparse GUI that consumes very little CPU time
23:25:18saratogathough I really have no idea what the OFs actually use the COP for, since the Apple firmwares have pretty sparse GUIs on the PP targets as well
23:25:47amiconnMaking better use of the cop would have 2 advantages
23:26:36amiconnIt helps keeping the ui responsive under high decoding load, and since processing is split between 2 cores, the average clock can be lower
23:27:02amiconn...which helps saving a bit of power in the pp peripheral modules
23:27:37amiconnBut we're not using the cop yet, with 2 exceptions: mpegplayer and the greylib
23:27:38saratogaBuschel and I have not been able to measure any nonlinearity in the power/clock curve for the PP502X
23:27:52saratogaso either we're doing something wrong or its very small
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23:28:15saratogaI suppose I should go back and measure 16, 30, 60 and 80 MHz one of these days
23:28:20amiconnsaratoga: You won't measure a nonlinearity if you're comparing the same amount of cop usage
23:28:49saratogaamiconn: Buschel tested by adjusting the min and max clock speeds to force it to spend more time at one or the other
23:29:03amiconnYou would need to compare e.g. one core running full load at 60MHz, and the other one idling, vs. both cores running full load at 30MHz
23:29:51saratogaamiconn: thats one way to do it, but its easier to just compare running 50/50 at 30/80MHz and an equivilent load split between 16 and 80MHz
23:29:52bertrikI guess it would be tricky to have a codec run on two processors (and balance the load evenly)
23:30:25amiconnsaratoga: That's not the same
23:30:31saratogahow so?
23:30:43gevaertsThat would be tricky, but maybe you could do the codec on one code and dsp on the other
23:31:09bertrikah yes ofcourse
23:31:11amiconnAs long as the clock average stays the same (at it will if the processing load is the same), the peripherals will also see that same average clock
23:31:33saratogaamiconn: exactly, thus allowing you to see if the clock-power relationship is linear or not
23:31:37amiconn...hence their average power consumption stays the same
23:31:47amiconnYes, and I don't expect it to be
23:31:56saratogaamiconn: well thats what we were testing
23:32:03amiconnErr, I expect it to be (almost) linear
23:32:46amiconnMy point was a different one: If we can balance processing load between cpu and cop, the *avera* clock will be lower
23:32:52amiconn*average
23:33:08saratogaI don't think thats true?
23:33:19amiconn?
23:33:19saratogaparticarly since we can't independently clock the two cores
23:33:40amiconnSure it is
23:33:51saratogaat best 2x 40MHz cores == 1x 80MHz, and perfect parallelization is extremely unlikely
23:34:18amiconnYes, but then the *peripherals* will save power (cause they're clock the same as the cores)
23:34:26saratogamore likely which ever core gets the codecs will be hammered, and the other nearly idle
23:34:58amiconnAgain: don't limit your view to the cores
23:35:08amiconnThe PPs are SoCs
23:35:18saratogaamiconn: but adjusting the min clock to change the boost ratio while keeping the average clock constant didn't impact battery life measurablely, so I don't think theres any difference here
23:35:42saratogaif the SOC components mattered, reducing the min clock should have increased power consumption since they'd be boosted more
23:35:56amiconnPlease rethink this. If the average clock stays the same, it will also stay the same for the peripherals
23:36:18amiconnBut if both cores do actual work, the average clock will be lower
23:36:36*gevaerts thinks that amiconn has a point
23:36:47saratogaoh I see what you're saying
23:37:34 Join miepchen^schlaf [0] (n=miepchen@p54BF50CD.dip.t-dialin.net)
23:37:34saratogathough measuring this could be extremely difficult
23:38:18amiconnWell if you have a way to measure the current, it shouldn't be too difficult
23:38:28saratogawhat test would you have in mind?
23:38:43amiconn(1) Set the clock to 80MHz, and let the CPU perform a dumb loop while the cop is idling
23:39:03amiconn(2) Set the clock to 40MHz, and let both CPU and COP perform dumb loops
23:39:17amiconnNow compare current
23:39:22saratogayes that should work
23:40:12saratogaI guess this I should look at the mpegplayer plugin and try to figure out how to make both threads spin
23:40:23saratogashould be easy enough to log current in labview
23:40:29 Quit phinze (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:41:51saratogaif there is a large difference, how exactly would we exploit it?
23:42:11saratogaOgg uses something like 31MHz, and I think the display and DSP overhead is only another 3-4 MHz
23:42:30saratogaour problem would seem to lack parallelism
23:42:32amiconnThere were plans to make the codec run on the cop
23:43:03saratogayou think a few MHz drop in average clock is likely to make up the cost of having the COP on in the first place?
23:43:05amiconnThe problem is passing data between the cores. It either needs to be put in iram, be uncached, or need cache flushes
23:43:40amiconnThe cop is on anyway. And if a core has nothing to do, it goes to sleep until the next tick anyway
23:43:56saratogapassing between cores could be worked out easily enough I think using IRAM, although it would require looking at a few of the codecs I'm not familar with
23:44:02gevaertsThat display and dsp overhead is for default settings. It's easy to make that go up a bit
23:44:28saratogaputting the output buffer in IRAM is usually pretty easy, since the output buffer can be shared with one of the codec's internal buffers
23:44:35amiconnThere would be an additional advantage if the COP does most of the work, and the CPU does UI, dsp, and buffering: buffering would happen faster, and hence the disk won't spin as long
23:45:14saratogai guess what we'd do is flip over the main codecs that don't already use IRAM, and then just put a wrapper that flushes on the others until we get around to fixing them
23:45:35*bertrik would like a nice picture on how the CPU / COP and peripheral clocks depend on each other :P
23:46:49amiconnCPU and COP clock are coupled. Either core clock can be stopped dynamically though, either for a fixed time (specified in clock cycles, microseconds, milliseconds, or second (on PP5022+ only)), or until an interrupt occurs
23:47:45saratogawhen its "stopped" is the core still clocked?
23:48:24saratogabertrik: theres some info about clocking in firmware/target/arm/system-pp502x.c
23:48:26amiconnMost peripherals seem to run from the main clock as well. The colour lcd bridge can be switched between the various sources (24MHz, PLL, and 2x PLL with prescaler) like the core clock can
23:48:59*amiconn would like to know how much power the PLL itself needs
23:48:59 Quit miepchen^schlaf_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:50:01amiconnsaratoga: No, stopped means stopped.
23:50:05saratogaamiconn: buschel made a patch that disabled the PPL and ran at 24MHz (IIRC), but it made no difference in power consumption
23:50:13saratogai just assumed it wasn't really disabled though
23:50:14amiconnI.e. no clock until the defined event occurs
23:50:41saratogais this what we do to the COP?
23:50:41amiconnIt's a clock gate, controlled from outside the core itself
23:50:43bertrikI can imagine that it would be possible to run the cores at a relatively high clock (mostly idling) and running the peripherals from a fixed clock
23:50:52amiconnWe're doing it to both cores
23:51:59 Join safetydan [0] (n=evertond@rockbox/developer/safetydan)
23:52:23amiconnBoth cores are running the same threading code, which puts the respective core to sleep if there's nothing to do
23:52:51amiconnThe tick wakes up both cores periodically
23:53:10 Quit snoh (Remote closed the connection)
23:53:13 Quit Vorador ("Ex-Chat")
23:54:20saratogawhat were the remaining technical issues to running the codecs on COP? just cache coherency for the call to pcmbuf_insert()?
23:54:28saratogaor was there more to be worked out
23:54:44amiconnYou need to pass data in both directions
23:55:38amiconnAnd I'm not sure whether that's actually the case, but if codecs are accessing files directly, we would probably get into serious trouble
23:56:15amiconnThen all the file code, fat code, and ata/sd/whatever driver code would need to be dual core safe
23:56:45 Join erram_ [0] (n=erram@cpe-70-114-41-70.satx.res.rr.com)
23:57:28amiconnImo the COP shouldn't be allowed to access the file, fat, and ata api at all
23:58:10LearCodecs only use the buffer, afaik. The file API isn't in the codec API, is it?
23:58:21saratogaI don't think codec touch files directly, since they'd bypass the file buffer
23:58:39amiconnI mean stuff like open(), read(), lseek() etc
23:58:51LearMe too.
23:58:56saratogaso at a minimum, read_filebuf and pcmbuf_insert need to be thread safe

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