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#rockbox log for 2008-11-03

00:01:08lee000000fsck.vfat -a "SANSA C240" −−- returns −−- "dosfsck 2.11, 12 Mar 2005, FAT32, LFN" "open SANSA C240:Is a directory"
00:01:30linuxstbYou should do umount "SANSA C240" and then run fsck.vfat on the device node - e.g. /dev/sdb1. If you type "mount" now, that will tell you the correct device node (before you type umount)
00:02:49 Quit faemir (Remote closed the connection)
00:03:24lee000000bash: unmount: command not found
00:03:36lee000000I'm in Ubuntu
00:03:37linuxstbThere is no "n" in "umount"
00:03:43linuxstbOr rather, just one ;)
00:03:55lee000000oops
00:04:38 Quit meven (Remote closed the connection)
00:07:29 Join mc2739 [0] (n=mc2739@cpe-67-10-238-175.satx.res.rr.com)
00:08:07lee000000fsck.vfat returns −− "There are differences between boot sector and its backup." −− then a bunch of Offset/Original numbers and some copy options. I'm using a Sansa c240.
00:08:30lee000000this can't be it though, right?
00:08:51linuxstbYou used the "-a" option ?
00:08:57funmanmc2739: i'm curious, do oyu need to reboot to unbrick ?
00:09:24mc2739yes
00:09:41lee000000linuxstb: no, but might this error be a normal part of installing Rockbox?
00:10:16linuxstbNo, filesystem errors are most commonly caused by you just unplugging your Sansa without unmounting it first.
00:11:12lee000000ok I'll try -a. (the "Eject" command from the right-click menu on a device is the same as unmounting right?
00:12:06linuxstbI would expect (hope) so.
00:13:08lee000000-a results −− Not automatically fixing this. Invalid disk format in boot sector.
00:13:52funmanmc2739: http://paste.ubuntu.com/66481/
00:14:06funmanif usb is present it will boot OF without messing with SDRAM
00:14:33funmanif not, it will decompress bootloader in SDRAM, and boot OF if C3 == 0 (= left pressed)
00:14:33lee000000linuxstb: how do I re-mount?
00:15:29linuxstblee000000: This is getting off-topic for this channel. Maybe someone else can help in #rockbox-community - I also need to leave now.
00:15:52mc2739ok - trying again
00:16:05lee000000alright. Thank you.
00:16:06funmanoh I forgot
00:16:22funmanI should have lighted the button led at power up
00:16:38mc2739ok
00:16:56funmando you want to add it before flashing?
00:18:05mc2739sure - it would be good to have some visual response
00:18:38funmanldr r0, =GPIOD mov r1, #0x80 str r1, [r0, #0x400] str r1, [r0, #0x200]
00:18:48funmanjust add this with proper \n right after start:
00:19:04funmanso in case the code doesn't work you'll know if it's still running or not
00:21:05mc2739ok - added - trying
00:21:05 Quit lee000000 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
00:25:42 Quit tyfoo ("Carpe diem")
00:27:25bertrikfound a "bit-banged" byte send algorithm in the fuze, maybe it's the radio chip communication
00:27:52bertrikwill check that out tomorrow... /me -> sleep
00:27:57 Quit bertrik ("Leaving")
00:28:41 Quit esthar ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
00:30:42mc2739funman: still no good - now I get button light on any key, but nothing else - and no OF on usb
00:30:55funmanherm
00:31:02funmandoes it shutdown properly at least ?
00:32:20 Join esthar [0] (n=esthar@student165-170.hampshire.edu)
00:32:59mc2739no - have to power of with long power
00:33:13funmanvery weird
00:33:35mc2739shouldn't button light code come after gpio clock is enabled?
00:33:46funmanoh right
00:34:11funmanthen that means that at least we reach enabling of the gpio clock
00:34:19 Quit tvelocity (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:40:03 Quit esthar ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
00:40:09funmanI re-read the code and I can't tell what's wrong with the 'escape path' (usb plugged)
00:41:38 Join esthar [0] (n=esthar@student165-170.hampshire.edu)
00:46:04funmanand it's fine in the emulator ...
00:46:57mc2739I don't see anything wrong either
00:48:00 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection)
00:49:20funmanwhat about usb+left button ?
00:50:13mc2739didn't try that, and it is not coming on at all now
00:50:39funmani.e. no light ?
00:51:06mc2739yes - no light with any buttons
00:51:16funmanusb without left = light ?
00:52:39 Quit mofux (Remote closed the connection)
00:52:47mc2739nothing period - it is not even turning on the light like before
00:53:00funmanthat must mean it's still running
00:53:18funmanno, that MEANS it's still running
00:53:33mc2739can't be - I have taken the battery out
00:53:41funmanah :)
00:53:49 Quit MethoS- (Remote closed the connection)
00:54:05funmanthen what changed .. ?
00:54:21mc2739I don't know
00:54:46 Quit esthar ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
00:54:52 Quit ender` (" Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors and miss. -- Robert A. Heinlein")
00:55:42 Join esthar [0] (n=esthar@student165-170.hampshire.edu)
00:57:04funmancan you still access the recovery mode?
00:57:48mc2739yes
00:59:15 Join homielowe [0] (n=homielow@d206-116-134-81.bchsia.telus.net)
01:00
01:00:31funmanwhat if you move enabling of gpio clock right after start:
01:00:32JThundleyoh crap I think I just broke my ipod running ./ipodpatcher −−add-bootloader /media/IPOD/.rockbox/rockbox.ipod
01:00:48funmanplus, say one second delay to be sure to have the time to see the light up
01:00:54JThundleyit doesn't get past the apple logo boot
01:01:15JThundleyI backed it up first with ./ipodpatcher −−read-partition firmwarebackup.img
01:03:24JThundleyI can't get my computer to recognize and mount it now though, how can I do this and restore the image?
01:03:52funmanisn't there a −−write-partition ?
01:04:15funmanif it's not listed in dmesg, you can't do anything though
01:04:19JThundleyyeah, but I can't write it because the player never goes into usb mode
01:04:22JThundleyexactly
01:04:33funmanI think there is key combinations to make it go in a certain mode
01:05:10JThundleyI read about a special maintenance mode or something
01:05:21JThundleyI tried the menu-select reboot a few times, it's not helping though
01:06:48funmantry rmmod ehci_hcd
01:07:01funman+ a different usb port, and if you can a different cable
01:07:53JThundleyok, I can do that, thanks
01:10:18 Quit culture (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:10:22mc2739bbl - unbricking and testing new build
01:10:26 Quit mc2739 ()
01:12:41JThundleyfunman: nothing, reloaded all my usb modules and modprobed them back in, the kernel only sees my mouse
01:12:49JThundleyand I'm using a different cord on a different port
01:12:58JThundleyit's stuck on the apple logo
01:13:14 Join ajonat [0] (n=ajonat@190.48.108.125)
01:13:28funmani don't know anything about ipods sorry
01:14:11 Join robin0800 [0] (n=robin080@cpc2-brig8-0-0-cust394.brig.cable.ntl.com)
01:14:12JThundleyok, I found a page about diagnostic mode
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01:18:52 Quit homielowe (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:19:04 Join homielowe [0] (n=homielow@d206-116-134-81.bchsia.telus.net)
01:25:03 Join lard-Vader [0] (n=jeremy@pool-71-161-146-194.spfdma.east.verizon.net)
01:25:32lard-VaderI am curious, is usb connectivity to other devices such as cameras on the NoDo list?
01:25:56funmandid you read this document ?
01:26:35lard-VaderWell
01:26:40funmanhttp://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/docs/NODO?view=log well it was written for the archos but I guess it still applies
01:26:41lard-VaderI read something on the mailing list
01:26:56lard-Vaderbut when I checked the noDo list it wasn't there
01:27:40lard-Vaderhttp://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-archive-2007-11/0371.shtml
01:27:54lard-VaderI was just curious if anyone answered his questions.
01:28:11lard-VaderBecause there was only one response, which was "rockbox is not linux"
01:28:17 Quit PaulJam (".")
01:29:00funmanI think that most hardware doesn't allow that, and if it does allow this mode, then Someone can develop it
01:29:25funmani'm not sure it has its place in rockbox, but for sure it will not exist if nobody writes it ;)
01:29:25lard-VaderSo there is no decision against it as a matter of principle?
01:29:51funmanthere will be a decision when someone will have written the code
01:29:58lard-VaderI can program some, I could try.
01:32:01 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
01:32:43lard-VaderWould it not be possible on the ipod because apple software takes care of the interfacing?
01:33:21funmanI don't know ipod, you should first check if the ipod's hardware can act as an USB master and control a slave (camera)
01:33:43funmanhttp://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi/trunk/docs/NODO?revision=5086&view=markup : read Q4
01:34:52JThundleyfunman: I fixed it :)
01:35:05JThundleyfor the record, you have to enter "disk mode" which is different than diagnostics mode
01:35:10JThundleyyou hold down select and play as it boots
01:35:51funmancool :)
01:36:10lard-Vaderfunman:thanks
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01:38:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:38:55 Quit Shiny (Remote closed the connection)
01:40:44lee000000well I finally found the source of the error "Prefetch abort at FFFFFFFe (0)" −− apparently it was somthing in my left-over "config.cfg". Anyone know what it might be?
01:41:54JdGordondid you recently upgrade from a rather old build?
01:42:08lee000000over a month
01:42:25JdGordonits not the config.cfg then... its nvrab.bin
01:42:29JdGordonnvram.bin
01:42:53 Join mc2739 [0] (n=mc2739@cpe-67-10-238-175.satx.res.rr.com)
01:43:10lee000000if I copy my old config.cfg to my player right now, and start RB I get the same error...?
01:43:35lee000000it's been close to two months
01:43:49JdGordonno... your conifig.cfg file is safe.. put it back on... just delete the .rockbox/nvram.bin file
01:44:03lee000000< trying...
01:45:34lee000000JdGordon: same error
01:46:16JdGordonhmm wierd
01:48:24funmanmc2739: do you have better results now ,
01:49:53mc2739yes - after 2 tries
01:50:15mc2739I caused a neverending loop on the first try
01:50:23funmanoops :o)
01:50:30funmancan you boot the OF ?
01:50:41mc2739yes, with usb
01:50:48 Quit lee000000 ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
01:51:14funmancool ;)
01:51:20funmanwhat about rockbox ?
01:51:57 Join lee000000 [0] (n=48fb231a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-ec98909418829103)
01:52:29 Quit jhulst (Remote closed the connection)
01:52:34funmanalso, can you give me your diff so we stay in sync ?
01:53:25mc2739well, its still not working as expected
01:53:35lee000000JdGordon: sorry, my system froze. Anyway I deleted nvram.bin, but if I put my config.cfg on it I get the Prefetch error. (here's my cfg http://pastebin.ca/1243622)
01:53:50 Part JThundley ("The silence is deafening.")
01:54:25JdGordonremove the line start in screen: previous
01:54:42funmanmc2739: if you can boot OF through USB that is progress however :)
01:54:50mc2739I thought I coded it to turn on led, turn off led, turn on led then continue - but it just blinks constantly
01:54:57lee000000< trying...
01:55:33funmanmc2739: with assembly the littlest error is fatal :/
01:55:46funmanI have bricked 2 clips already
01:55:58mc2739her's the code - http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/66518/
01:56:31 Quit mc2739 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:56:50funmanyep .. it was fatal
01:56:51 Join mc2739 [0] (n=mc2739@cpe-67-10-238-175.satx.res.rr.com)
01:57:41funmanmc2739: looks correct
01:58:02funmanwhat could happen is that we execute from #0 with the code untouched, so it's like a continuous reset
01:58:31mc2739it does not matter which button I press, it just blinks
01:58:38lee000000JdGordon: that fixed it. Has "start in screen:" been changed to anther word/phrase?
01:59:09JdGordonno, its just slighty bugged
01:59:19funmanmc2739: ah of course ..
01:59:27lee000000JdGordon: alright. Thank you.
01:59:41funmanline 163 we branch to ucl_unpack function
01:59:52funmanbut when we come back, the code has been replaced by the OF ..
02:00
02:00:06lee000000peace Rockboxers
02:00:07funmanmc2739: try mov lr, #0 instead of adr lr, next
02:00:45 Quit lee000000 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
02:00:58funmanwe'll need yet another trick to patch the OF / or not (depending on the pressed button)
02:01:10mc2739ok - changed, trying now
02:03:52 Join Slack [0] (n=brett@12-218-63-169.client.mchsi.com)
02:04:00mc2739no change
02:04:11funmanOF only boots on USB ?
02:04:17mc2739yes
02:04:49funmanif there is a data abort, the cpu will restart at start:
02:05:00funmanthat means the sdram init / write doesn't go well
02:08:14funmancan you try b decompress_rb just after bl sdram_init ?
02:08:24 Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst)
02:08:58 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:09:43funmanin fact if usb check works I could try the code on my Clip but I'm too scard ..
02:10:12mc2739its not worth it - too easy to brick
02:10:32funmanmaybe when I'll receive my JTAG adapter ;)
02:11:01mc2739I've added b decompress_rb after line 116 - correct?
02:11:41funmanyep
02:14:16 Nick _synergist is now known as synergist (i=christop@cant.be-arsed.co.uk)
02:14:22mc2739now I get one flash with button pressed or not pressed, I get OF with usb
02:14:40 Quit perrikwp ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
02:14:52funmanafter one flash do you have to power it off to reboot it ?
02:15:02mc2739yes
02:15:45funmanargh
02:15:52funmanit's b decompress_of
02:15:58funmanelse it does an infinite loop :-)
02:16:10funmansee how dangerous it is ? :)
02:16:11mc2739thats what I thought
02:16:36mc2739at least it confirms sdram_init is OK
02:17:12funmanwell if we can not write to it, not completely
02:19:18mc2739now I get a single blink and then it boots OF
02:19:24funmanstart of compressed image r9 = wrong
02:20:09funmanshould be "add r0, r3, #1"
02:20:25mc2739where?
02:20:28funmanbecause r3 was used in the copy loop and points 1 byte below the start of the compressed bootloader
02:20:39funmanline 130 in the pastebin
02:21:13funmanwell wait
02:21:18funmanthere is more wrongness
02:22:33funmanjust delete the instruction, r0 already points to 0x30010000 which is the start of the compressed bootloader, and it was not modified
02:23:37mc2739done, anything else?
02:23:45funmannope, looks good
02:26:18mc2739now I get a single blink and then it boots OF
02:26:42funmanherm, no bootloader ?
02:26:54funmanah no it's normal
02:27:37mc2739we still have b decompress_of after bl sdram_init
02:27:55funmanoh ok, remove that ^^
02:29:37funmanthen mov lr, #0x30000000 instead of #0 to try booting into the SDRAM bootloader (I have a version which does that depending on a button if you prefer, but USB should be enough)
02:31:29mc2739in fw_copy
02:31:30mc2739?
02:32:04funmanyep
02:32:32funmanfollowing code will not be executed, the ucl_unpack (bx r8) will use what you put in lr as a return address
02:34:19mc2739still boots OF
02:34:47funmanwhat with the mov lr, #0x30000000 ?
02:34:55mc2739yes
02:35:04funmanherm
02:35:41funmancan you repaste the whoe dualboot.S please ?
02:36:33mc2739http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/66533/
02:38:50funmanlooks good, perhaps the button gpio checks are messed up
02:40:04funmancan you swap lines 105 & 106 ? I don't know if mov modifies the flags
02:40:52funmanwell r10 isn't used any way so ..
02:41:25mc2739isn't it used in next:
02:41:43mc2739line 167
02:41:49funmanyou can deleted everything below next , it's not called
02:41:57mc2739oh
02:42:11funmanafter line 162 we won't return to this code, because it's overwritten by the unpack function
02:42:17mc2739that is where the button check is
02:42:57funmanit was wrong , sorry
02:43:03funmando you want a new patch ?
02:43:22mc2739sure
02:43:49mc2739as long as it does not mess up usb check
02:43:53mc2739:)
02:44:01funmanit shouldn't ..
02:46:07 Quit BHSPitLappy (Remote closed the connection)
02:48:41funmanhttp://pastebin.ubuntu.com/66537/ < the dualboot.S
02:49:56funmanso button left = OF, no button = bootloader
02:50:19funmanand usb = OF of course
02:50:50 Quit ajonat ()
02:55:01mc2739I don't know what happened, but now I can't boot into OF
02:55:11funmandamn sorry :(
02:55:34mc2739not your fault - I didn't load the new dualboot.S yet
02:55:42funmanoh
02:56:21funmanmaybe the e200 wants you to leave it alone :)
02:56:35mc2739hehe maybe
02:56:53funmani'll continue on the OF patcher, hoping than running from SDRAM works
02:57:19mc2739ok - I'm off to unbrick again
02:57:20 Join Darksair [0] (n=user@221.221.166.114)
02:57:30funmanwell wait a bit
02:57:40funmanno need to unbrick since it's not bricked - the code didn't change itself
02:57:56funmanand I doubt out of a crashed state it branched to a working SD driver
02:58:36mc2739something changed - it now blinks once and hangs with the led on
02:58:51mc2739with usb, button, or no button
02:59:22funmaneven if you unplug the battery a while to be sure everything is reset ?
02:59:34mc2739yes
03:00
03:00:17 Join toffe82 [0] (n=chatzill@76.240.236.239)
03:00:32mc2739like what happened earlier - when we first turned on the led
03:01:03mc2739it worked for a bit, then quit working
03:01:20funmanweird ..
03:01:46mc2739yes it is
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03:11:12 Part toffe82
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03:18:12funmanmc2739: http://paste.ubuntu.com/66550/
03:18:56funmanthis version adds a branch into OF, if it works next step is to modify the bootloader to read i2c registers
03:19:06funmanwell, power management registers on the i2c bus
03:26:36 Join perrikwp [0] (i=d1a8d351@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-44aeea0227b8e24a)
03:27:08mc2739ok - i'll test it as soon as I unbrick again - I could not get it to boot back into the OF
03:27:40funmanpretty weird, could it be that we set some remaining setting even after power off ?
03:27:53funmanin the datasheet they say the rtc is alimented even the device off
03:28:09funmanhowever when I tried to use it the counter was near to 0
03:29:07mc2739I don't know - it blinks the led once and then "hangs" with the led on. I can turn it off with the power button, so it is not really locked up
03:29:34funmanstill it would be nice to know what the cpu is executing
03:29:46mc2739true
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03:38:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:55:44funmanmc2739: re, I have posted full patch on http://paste.ubuntu.com/66560/ (should boot OF in every case, and bootloader/modified OF if button left is pressed)
03:56:10funmanwell in fact it's wrong since I modified the rockbox bootloader ^^
03:56:26mc2739funman: well, it appears that my e200 is bricked
03:56:37JdGordon:(
03:56:40funmanoh really ?
03:56:48funmanyou can't use the recovery mode ,
03:56:50funman?*
03:56:51 Join midkay_ [0] (n=midkay@216-160-120-19.tukw.qwest.net)
03:57:54mc2739I can get into the recovery mode, /dev/sdc does not show up
03:58:12funmando you use the battery or usb to power up ?
03:58:28mc2739usb
03:58:38funman:(
03:59:23funmansometimes I had to retry several times to be sure to have linked the 2 pins together on the Clip
04:00
04:00:49mc2739I tried several time - I got the correct response from lsusb (0721:6200)
04:01:35funmanoh so it's present but no mass storage?
04:01:42funmanare you on windows now ?
04:01:48mc2739yes
04:02:06funmantry sudo rmmod ehci_hcd # sometimes usb2 causes problem
04:02:28funmanor try different usb ports / cable if you can
04:02:45mc2739I did try different ports and cables
04:03:01funmanand usb1 instead of usb2 ?
04:03:04funmankeep hope :)
04:03:18mc2739not usb1 yet
04:03:51mc2739but, this might be the same weirdness we saw causing this too
04:04:04funmanyep
04:04:12funmanwell we'll see
04:04:37funmanI'm going to bed, it's a 'bit' late now here ..
04:04:40mc2739I'll look over the pcb with a magnifying glass to see if I damaged anything
04:05:06mc2739ok - gnight
04:05:07 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
04:05:08funmanI hope for you that your e200 works again
04:05:13mc2739thanks
04:06:10funmanthanks for all the testing so far
04:06:54funmanwhen it's back again if you (or someone else who read the logs) want to try the code, it's there: http://paste.ubuntu.com/66564/
04:07:02funman@tomorrow
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04:42:00*JdGordon grumbles at trading one data abort for another :(
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06:10:50saratogasoap: if your resynced version of the ipod accessory patch works, perhaps you should commit it before it goes out of sync again
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07:39:03funmanJdGordon: were you grumbling about your e200 ?
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08:04:53JdGordonfunman: yes, but the v1 not v2
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08:47:58amiconnZagor: Is there a reason why 'make clean' in a voice build dir makes the apps depfile before cleaning? Imho this is a bug. I don't think the depfile is needed for voice builds at all
08:48:34ZagorThe makefiles are still work in progress. There is still lots wrong with them.
08:49:07ZagorTo answer your question: I agree
08:49:12amiconnok
08:49:44*amiconn wanted to report that because it might not be easily noticeable on linux
08:49:44funmanZagor: did you notice the patch for using cmake on flyspray ?
08:49:52ZagorThe combination of dynamically generated code (bitmaps) and parallell compilation (-j) is a tough one
08:50:28Zagorfunman: yes. but I'm rather unconvinced moving to a completely new tool (which none of the devs have ever worked with) is a very good idea
08:50:42funmanI have worked with it already
08:51:12funmanbut I quickly gave up - it was not very much different from autotools which we were trying to replace
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08:51:40Zagoryeah, I don't feel it would really reduce complexity
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09:00:22WarpTIhello why do battery icons refuse to load on any theme i get for sansa c250?
09:00:56WarpTIdo i have to add a line to the bmp in the cfg file to fix that?
09:01:05WarpTIand in that case what line?
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09:01:57amiconnZagor: What I don't understand with plain 'make' is how dependencies from stuff handled by another Makefile is supposed to work
09:02:03funmanlinuxstb: hey, I'm trying to hijack the Clip OF to show the values of power management registers, do you have a free hand ?
09:02:26Zagoramiconn: it isn't handled. you need to specify/generate every single dependency.
09:02:32amiconnEither we add the dependency and the sub-make call explicitly, but somehow the sub-make then always gets called twice
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09:03:11amiconnOr we don't, but then the parent 'make' thinks there's nothing to do if the only change was in a dir handled by the sub-make
09:03:13Zagorthat's why the cygwin sim builds (and others, if provoked right) fail on rockboxlogo.h etc.
09:03:20Zagorexactly
09:03:48amiconnWe used to have the former situation for the bitmaps, and the latter situation for pluginlib, codec libs etc. Now we have it for the bitmaps as well
09:03:55Zagorthe solution is either a) painstakingly generate dependencies for subdirs, or b) consolidate apps/Makefile into a single huge Makefile
09:04:25amiconnDo automake & friends have a solution for this problem?
09:04:29linuxstbfunman: Maybe, although the working day is about to start... What do you need?
09:04:39B4gderwell, (b) would be tricky but having a single makefile would also speed up builds a lot
09:05:00Zagoramiconn: not that I'm aware of. this is a consequence of how make works
09:05:05WarpTIi would be greatful if battery icons worked on any theme i've got
09:05:07ZagorB4gder: yes
09:05:28WarpTIand im using latest rockbox on c250
09:05:30funmanlinuxstb: well I'm using 'adr label' to relocate a function and I think this is not correct - I can't see the adr instruction in my quick reference set
09:05:36linuxstbCouldn't use of includes make b) more managable?
09:05:46Zagora) is sort of half-half, because we'd have to generate dependencies for the whole tree but still run separate Makefiles
09:06:00Zagorlinuxstb: yes it could
09:06:03amiconnfunman: 'adr' is a pseudo-instruction provided by the arm assembler
09:06:26amiconnIt gets translated into a pc-relative ldr and a constant put into the constant pool
09:06:31*linuxstb has always liked the idea of a single Makefile
09:07:34WarpTItheme wont show up 100% rockbox bug?
09:07:40funmanamiconn: ok this is what I thought, ida shows adr, but objdump shows the real instruction
09:07:53amiconnhttp://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/as/ARM-Opcodes.html#ARM-Opcodes
09:08:16*amiconn was slightly wrong
09:08:32amiconn'adr' is converted to a pc-relative add/sub
09:11:04linuxstbWarpTI: What exactly happens? Is the .wps rejected, or does everything work in the WPS apart from the battery status?
09:11:53WarpTIeverything works except the battery skinning
09:12:14WarpTIits like the whole upper line is a skin that wont work
09:12:37linuxstbIn the WPS, or elsewhere in Rockbox?
09:12:47WarpTIany wps does the same
09:12:58WarpTIloads anything except the upper battery bar
09:13:52WarpTIquestion is if it needs a command line in the cfg
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09:14:08WarpTIcause so far nothing tells the cfg to load that stuff
09:15:01linuxstbWarpTI: I still don't understand your question - are you looking at the "while-playing screen", or (for example), the main menu?
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09:15:27WarpTIi wanna fix the skinning part
09:15:34WarpTIsay you load a skin
09:15:41WarpTIand part of any skin wont load
09:16:28WarpTIbattery-132x80x16.bmp
09:16:31WarpTIthat file
09:16:39WarpTIwont load on any of the skins
09:16:40WarpTI:(
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09:19:25WarpTIany solution?
09:19:56funmanWarpTI: maybe start by answering the question linuxstb asked you
09:20:51WarpTIok im looking at both
09:20:57WarpTIof the screens
09:21:39linuxstbAnd you see the same "status bar" at the top of both screens?
09:21:45WarpTIits the general im talking about
09:21:49WarpTIbefore playing songs
09:22:39WarpTIwell when i browse setting and that stuff , battery skin's straight up
09:22:39linuxstbThe status bar isn't skinnable. All you can do is show/hide it, and in a WPS replace it with the normal WPS elements.
09:23:09WarpTIit aint?
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09:23:40WarpTIyou mean its called statusbar where u see time and everything
09:23:53linuxstbYes.
09:24:15WarpTII thought it was skinnable
09:24:29WarpTIsince there are bmps for it on the skins
09:25:00WarpTIguess im wrong then
09:25:03WarpTIthanx
09:25:20linuxstbNo, those bmps are just used in the while-playing screen - the names are just chosen by the wps author, and don't mean anything.
09:25:25pixelmathere is also a setting to show battery info (and volume info, I believe) graphical or numerical. This is still only what Rockbox provides not external bitmaps or so
09:25:54WarpTIwould it hurt to make it skinnable someday guys?
09:26:07linuxstbWarpTI: You may want to look at this page to understand how Rockbox themes work - http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CustomWPS
09:26:20LinusNWarpTI: it will probably not be "skinnable" in the Winamp sense
09:26:36linuxstbWarpTI: I think it's a generally wanted feature, just not high enough on anyone's to-do list.
09:26:39WarpTIthanx man i made a batmantheme so far thats kinda nice :)
09:27:58linuxstbLinusN: What's the "Winamp sense" ?
09:28:16LinusNi.e superimposing a bitmap
09:28:43LinusNi think it would be more like the current wps
09:29:02LinusNor am i wrong about winamp skinning?
09:30:14*linuxstb knows nothing about winamp skinning
09:31:00WarpTII started making a theme by editing cabbie v2 cfg and bitmaps , seems to work quite well :)
09:31:28LinusNbtw, what happened with the gsoc wps editor?
09:32:10linuxstbIt's in SVN, but not finished...
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09:38:50WarpTIjust a question about what to change in cfg , say i want bar (solid colour) whats the line for that?
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09:39:16WarpTIIm speaking themes
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09:42:00linuxstbYou can change those colours in Rockbox itself (Settings -> Theme Settings), and then create a .cfg file containing them (and then copy/paste). Or just look at an existing theme .cfg file
09:42:40linuxstbOr you can run the "settings_dumper" plugin (if you're using a recent version of Rockbox)
09:43:13WarpTIyes i am
09:46:41JdGordonand everyone said that plugin would be useless :D
09:47:13WarpTIheh not for me thanx a bunch guys
09:47:31WarpTImakes it even easier for me to customize my c250 themes
09:47:32WarpTI:)
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09:50:44linuxstbJdGordon: I wouldn't call it an "Application" though - maybe we need a new plugin category, e.g. "tools" for these system-like utilities.
09:51:57JdGordonI'm trying to fix a problem with the root menu code which data aborts when the nvram.bin isnt valid and the start screen is set to previous... I think "next_screen = (int)global_status.last_screen" is the problem (gs.last_screen is a char and the default value is -1)... I asked in #gcc but they reckon -1 as a char will get converted to -1 as an int so i dunno?
09:52:25linuxstbIt's defined as just "char" ?
09:53:00*linuxstb recalls mentioning this before...
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09:54:18*B4gder recalls this being discussed before
09:54:31WarpTIi think basing a theme on an already done theme is easier than waiting for cygwin :)
09:54:43*JdGordon doesnt remember the previous discussion
09:55:02B4gder"char" is not explicitly signed
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09:55:24funmanright, but in practice it is
09:55:27B4gderno
09:55:43funmani don't know of any compiler where 'char' is unsigned
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09:56:09B4gderI recall gcc versions with it
09:56:24B4gderit rather depends on the target arch, and not specific compiler
09:56:27linuxstbfunman: Any ARM compiler should...
09:56:49linuxstb(and MIPS IIRC)
09:56:54funmanoh
09:57:07B4gderyeah, they're several
09:57:20linuxstbThe C standard explicitly says that "char" can be either signed or unsigned, and it's implementation-dependant
09:58:49B4gderit's funny that guys in #gcc wouldb't say this...
09:59:46funmando you trust people on the internet ? :)
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10:00:28B4gdermy world is shaking. You mean people say things that aren't true on the internet?!
10:02:01linuxstbJdGordon: In practice, this means that "char x = -1 ; int y = x;" will make y contain 255.
10:02:11GodEaterB4gder: http://xkcd.com/386/
10:02:27B4gderhahaha
10:03:00JdGordonlinuxstb: yeah, thats what i thought was happening... although the data abort gives the nuber fffffe ?
10:03:35GodEaterB4gder: my girlfriend tells me that that cartoon describes me precisely.
10:03:56funmanJdGordon: what if you cast it first to (signed char) ?
10:04:55JdGordondunno...
10:05:07*JdGordon unfortunatly became busy just as i finished typing the message before :(
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10:11:19linuxstbThe correct solution would seem to be to change last_screen to "signed char", if it's being assigned the value -1.
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10:33:44JdGordonlinuxstb: ok, doing that gives a data abort when i try going into the plugin browser!
10:34:41linuxstbOK, but using a signed char is The Right Thing, if you're assigning -1 to it.
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10:37:02JdGordonthe abort is at 00006b80.. the closest number in the .map is 0x0000000000006b2c
10:37:21JdGordonarg, yeah that works
10:37:54JdGordonFFS.. thats not even svn code :<
10:37:57*JdGordon slaps self
10:38:07funmanlinuxstb: do you know if the sandisk logo is located in the firmware block on the Clip OF ?
10:38:28linuxstbNo idea, I haven't looked for it.
10:38:41funmanI have a weird lockup when showing the logo
10:39:35funmanit is sometimes persistant on reboot even if I select the "safe" path with a button press
10:40:50funmanthe only reference I see to the lcd_write_data routine is in some code loaded in SDRAM
10:40:56funmanso it might
10:57:26JdGordonpixelma: amiconn: should I make the "f3" screen customizable?
11:00
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11:05:02*pixelma knows next to nothing about the F3 screen, only "it exists"
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11:05:47*JdGordon adds that to the list of features which can be removed when the time comes
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11:06:27pixelmaurgh
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11:10:48JdGordon... that was a joke...
11:21:00JdGordonanyone got a commit ready so I can do 2 quick ones without triggering a build in between?
11:26:12*funman successfully hijacked Clip's OF
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11:45:56WarpTIhey guys
11:46:15WarpTIsomehow i failed to operate the rockbox logo swapper
11:46:24WarpTIany ideas?
11:46:41B4gderwe don't provide any such tool afaik
11:46:49WarpTIoh
11:46:58funmanI'm not able to use the display however :/
11:47:13WarpTIthought it was done by the team to ease the swapping of rockbox logos
11:47:26B4gderWarpTI: it might be, but not this team
11:47:59JdGordonoh bloody hell... it works untill im ready to commit then it falls apart :'(
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11:50:37linuxstbfunman: You don't have enough room for the full bootloader code?
11:50:46funmanah now I can
11:50:49funmanlinuxstb: yes I do have
11:51:03funmannow I can't read i2c properly, perhaps because it was setup to use interrupts
11:51:10linuxstb\o/ That should be very helpful.
11:51:15funmanand the 64 registers do not fit on the screen ;)
11:52:08funmanI wanted to execute the bootloader from SDRAM but finaly it fitted into the IRAM (at 0x30000)
11:53:16linuxstbSo the OF isn't using all the IRAM?
11:53:25funmanno
11:53:36funmanthis area is used to load 'blocks' from the SD
11:54:11linuxstbWhat function in the OF did you hook into?
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11:54:51funmanright when the SD card is powered up
11:55:08funmanhum now I can't get display working anymore ..
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11:57:00WarpTIin what file is the rockbox logo? nvram.bin?
11:57:56linuxstbIt's part of the main Rockbox file - rockbox.mi4
11:58:30linuxstbI think it's also displayed in the bootloader on the c250
11:59:53WarpTIwhats the c250 bootloader called?
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12:00:18JdGordonis it better to display the "canceled" splash every time the user presses the back button, or to not splash at all?
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12:00:38JdGordontrying to simulate the usual option screen but cant get it perfect easily
12:02:06B4gderWarpTI: it's called "the bootloader" !
12:02:34ZagorJdGordon: no splash imho
12:02:54Zagorotherwise it gets very annoying when you're browsing the settings
12:02:57WarpTIseem to have no such file called "the bootloader" on my c250
12:03:21B4gderWarpTI: you don't
12:03:30JdGordonZagor: ok
12:04:45WarpTIcan i turn off the splash too?
12:04:58B4gder"the splash" ?
12:05:08WarpTIbootlogo
12:05:24B4gdersure, anything is possible if you just edit the source and recompile
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12:05:35WarpTIaha no options
12:05:43WarpTIim not a compiler
12:05:52WarpTIim more of a normal user.
12:06:35*pixelma wonders what JdGordon is doing/planning to do
12:07:13JdGordonfixing up custom quickscreens to commit it... trying to make the selector as close to the usual settings screen as possible
12:07:39funmannow I have access to the i2c registers
12:12:28funmanhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/66697/ : now to the analysis and reproduction ^^
12:13:25linuxstbWarpTI: No, there are no user-configurable options to change the Rockbox logo - it's the Rockbox logo...
12:13:52funmanthe hijacking patch is on http://paste.ubuntu.com/66698/ : but BE CAREFUL a lot of values are hardcoded for Clip, and specifically firmware v30 (the first one that plays FLAC)
12:21:25*JdGordon wonders how the hell the delta blew out
12:21:51JdGordonwhich numbers from rockbox-info.txt are the useful ones? binary size or actual size?
12:29:50linuxstbUseful for what? They just say different things.
12:32:08JdGordonfor figuring out the delta
12:32:34JdGordonalthough, they dont differ by much
12:32:48funmanweird that the clip's RTC is reset at each reboot, with a positive offset (< 60 seconds)
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12:36:57linuxstbJdGordon: Sorry, I thought you were asking about binsize and ram usage... The "Actual size" is the useful one of those two files, as some files (e.g. the mi4 targets) have padding which can hide deltas.
12:37:18JdGordonok
12:43:34funmannothing on the i2c registers unfortunately
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12:53:13funmannothing on the pl180 registers either
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13:00:45J-23hmm, did anybody think about porting Rockbox to Sansa View?
13:01:18amiconnhmpf
13:01:38B4gderJ-23: haven't you been around here long enough to know the new port drill?
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13:03:41J-23B4gder: I don't understand you.
13:04:11 Quit intrados (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
13:04:23B4gderJ-23: there's a sansa view thread in the forums, it should explain it good enough
13:04:56J-23ok, I'll read it
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13:11:08kushal_12_27_200I wanted to confirm that rockbox works on sansa c250 works with the latest OF.
13:11:32kushal_12_27_200so far
13:12:45funmanI wonder why a modification of the firmware will causes some data abort, even if the location where the code was modified was not executed yet
13:13:05funmaninterrupts are disabled, as well as instruction and data caches
13:15:42LinusNfunman: well, technically, all code located beyond your change has moved too
13:16:30LinusNif the code size changed, that is
13:16:32funmanI am not sure if it happens when I don't do an insert or removal of code
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13:39:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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13:50:59B4gderwho knows, one of these days Rockbox might again run an a player actually possible to buy new...
13:51:40LambdaCalculus37B4gder: Until SanDisk announces new players. ;)
13:52:11funmanyeah who knows :(
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13:57:04funmannothing interesting in the GPIO registers
14:00
14:00:19funmanexcept pl180 registers, power management registers on the i2c bus, and GPIOs I have no idea where to look to find what enables this embedded SD card on the sansav2s
14:01:38funmansomething else: is there a tool to easily add a model to the LANG files ? editing them one by one is a bit tedious
14:02:52 Part LinusN
14:03:53B4gderI figure you'd write a little script to do it
14:04:12*JdGordon thinks we are going to need a better method for numbering the targets in configure soon
14:04:26B4gderwhy?
14:04:32B4gderyou mean with submenus or similar?
14:04:33funmanI usually script in shell, and it's not really suited for text processing. perhaps with python ..
14:04:45B4gderperl rocks with it
14:04:55JdGordonnot submenus, but leaving 10 lines for each manufacturer obviously isnt enouhg
14:05:01JdGordon1 more sansa spot left
14:05:23funmanwhat about 50x (for sansa) ?
14:05:32B4gderJdGordon: well, that number isn't set in stone. We can change them all without affecting any scripts or similar
14:06:15JdGordonwell seen as the Tatung port has stalled(?) we could move that and use 50-69 for sansa
14:06:36 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
14:07:04B4gderfor all I care, they don't have HAVE TO be sequential for each brand
14:07:22funmanhum LANG_FM_RADIO is not declared, but I see no model specific translation in *.lang; but "*: none" and radio: "FM Radio". Is "radio" a special flag I should set somewhere ?
14:07:24B4gderyou still need to read the menu to figure out the number
14:08:03B4gderfunman: that's a "feature" from apps/features.txt
14:08:04JdGordonwell.. sequencial is nice
14:08:08B4gderJdGordon: why?
14:08:23JdGordonno reason... it just is
14:08:30B4gder:-)
14:08:43JdGordonis the sansa c100 ams?
14:09:59funmanif you have a firmware file it's easy to figure
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14:10:50JdGordonor just search in the file for the target :p no its tcc
14:11:40funmanJdGordon: is that the same reason that towers of rockbox are fun ? :)
14:12:16JdGordonhrm?
14:12:29funmanforget it :)
14:13:16*JdGordon stops playing with configure and suggests we go hex for when its needed
14:13:57funmanyou only got 6 extra sequential models though
14:14:19JdGordonwell then use the rest of the alphabet once thats exceeded...
14:14:59JdGordonB4gder: do the build scripts use the targets full name or configure number? the e200r target is complety useless and could be removed
14:15:02B4gderactually, I would perhaps rather abandon the "per brand" split and just do all models alfabetically or something
14:15:26B4gderthe build scripts use the name version
14:15:57linuxstbWe could perhaps have a "Other" section for things like the Elio, Logik DAX etc, and simply squash things up so we don't leave blank lines
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14:16:23B4gderI don't think we should worry too much about renumbering them
14:16:39*JdGordon *thought* the e200r target was useless... its not identical though?
14:17:32JdGordonsome people will have build scripts which need the numbers to not change..
14:18:07B4gderthey should be smacked anyway
14:18:21B4gderwe introduced the full names in there for exactly that reason
14:18:34B4gderand if we change it often enough, they will learn ;-)
14:18:46JdGordonyeah
14:19:46B4gderbut I would assume such cases to be very rare
14:23:35*GodEater idly wonders if B4gder will ever get round to the git/http thing
14:23:51funmanwhat's wrong with it ,
14:25:19GodEaterthe rockbox one isn't accessible via it ?
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14:41:31*n1s hopes JdGordon will add something about the customizable quickscreen to the manual ;)
14:44:25*linuxstb tried it this morning, and finds the long list very hard to navigate, and also hard to associate settings with what they actually do (they're out of context)
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14:44:59JdGordonyes and yes, but once its set its all better
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14:45:46*linuxstb wonders if a context menu for settings items would be easier to use - with options such as "Use as left quickscreen item"
14:46:33JdGordonI'm not so sure... you then have the problem where some settings wont show a context menu when you expect it to?
14:46:52JdGordonthat would bring the delta down alot though
14:47:34*linuxstb would also like a "Help" option there, firing up a helpfile viewer, but that needs someone to write the help...
14:48:18JdGordonwhere would you put the ocntext menu? in the option screen? or in the menus?
14:49:02JdGordonwow! quickscreen uses 5.2K of the binary size
14:49:08JdGordon(e200 build)
14:49:14linuxstbDidn't you write the quickscreen? ;)
14:49:20JdGordonno
14:49:28JdGordonthat was around long before I got here
14:49:36linuxstbOr at least, rewrite it with viewports?
14:49:44*JdGordon guilty
14:50:13PaulJambtw, thanks for committing the customiseable quickscreen. (but i have one big problem with this feature: i just can't decide which option to put in there :))
14:50:21JdGordonhaha
14:50:49LloreanJdGordon: If I don't customize, the quickscreen will still work exactly the same as it did before, right?
14:50:57JdGordonyeah
14:51:41JdGordonlinuxstb: ok, I'm liking the context menu idea... resetting the screen is another problem with it thougu
14:52:58LloreanDoes there need to be a reset?
14:53:28JdGordonthere doesnt need to be, but it would be good to have
14:53:45linuxstbI thought a reset would be useful this morning when playing with it...
14:53:56linuxstbBut of course nothing is _needed_.
14:54:04JdGordonreset in the list is done... context menu button
14:54:15JdGordon(same as every setting in the standard setting screen)
14:54:15LloreanI mean, if it makes things complicated, and people can still manually set the old ones, I don't see it as being particularly important.
14:54:24Lloreanwe don't have individual resets for about 99.5% of settings as it is.
14:54:39*JdGordon thinks Llorean should read the manual :D
14:54:44JdGordonalthough.. thats probaly not even in it
14:54:59LloreanI'm confused. Read the manual about what?
14:55:11JdGordonresetting individual settings
14:55:30LloreanHow do you do that?
14:55:38JdGordoncontext menu button
14:55:46JdGordonit was added ages ago (not by me)
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14:56:14LloreanStrange.
14:56:24JdGordon17188 sdoyon
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14:59:03JdGordonI have no idea where in the manual that should be mentioned
15:00
15:02:21JdGordonthis obviously isnt my area, but I think WPS tags, config file options and menu overview (although thats a placeholder apparently) shouldnt be in the manual.
15:02:33JdGordonplugins also
15:03:08n1sJdGordon: why not plugins?
15:03:17linuxstbThen where do they belong?
15:03:28JdGordonin the wiki
15:03:47linuxstbBut the wiki can't be generated dynamically in a target-specific way.
15:04:01pixelmaand then have huge tables about which button does what on each targets?
15:04:09JdGordonok, plugins can stay then
15:04:38n1sJdGordon: i can't get a context menu for individual settings in a sim, maybe it was broken?
15:05:01JdGordonits not a menu.. change the selection then press the key which usually brings up the context menu
15:05:27n1sJdGordon: aha, yes, that works
15:05:29J-23hmm, LCD on e200v2/Fuze/Clip, SD tests, codec hacking... what about c200v2?
15:05:29*JdGordon shuts up about the manual and admits half the reason why it shouldnt be in the manual is his fault
15:06:24LambdaCalculus37J-23: The e200v2 uses the same AS3525 SoC as the Clip and Fuze IIRC.
15:06:56B4gderI don't think anyone around here has a c200v2
15:07:09LambdaCalculus37J-23: If you have one, why not help out?
15:07:24J-23I only have v1 c240 and v2 e280
15:08:18LambdaCalculus37J-23: Some info here: http://daniel.haxx.se/sansa/v2.html
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15:29:21Spidahi
15:29:57Spidawhich harddisks can I use in an iriver h340 to replace the original with a larger one?
15:30:34linuxstbSee http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/HardDriveReplacement
15:31:20LambdaCalculus37Spida: You can also look at http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CFModGuide if you're interested in a CompactFlash mod.
15:32:10SpidaLambdaCalculus37: I don't beliefe there is a CF card that is affordable and larger than the original 40gb hdd
15:32:13Spida:-)
15:32:16J-23anything new to test on e200v2?
15:32:34J-23ahh, nvm.
15:33:49J-23hmm, /home/Moarc/rockbox/firmware/export/system.h:119:1: warning: "htobe32" redefined
15:34:00LambdaCalculus37Spida: Regardless, it's still a good mod to know about.
15:34:11SpidaLambdaCalculus37: yes.
15:34:21J-23and "/home/Moarc/rockbox/firmware/export/system.h:118:1: warning: "htobe16" redefined" when compiling e200v2 simulator
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15:35:05J-23previous definitions were at lines 64 and 69 of /usr/include/endian.h
15:35:06n1sJ-23: gcc usually tells you where the original definition was
15:35:11n1sah
15:35:20Spidaor is there any player that is similar to the h340?
15:35:45n1sSpida: depends on what you are looking for
15:35:49LambdaCalculus37Spida: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/BuyersGuide
15:35:58B4gderSpida: most players are similar to it in some aspects
15:36:48Spidamp3+ogg+flac,usb device+host port, radio, color display, recording capability, >= 40GB
15:37:27B4gderI can only think of the x5 then
15:37:28n1sSpida: rockbox plays mp3, ogg and flac on _all_ swcodec targets
15:39:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:39:23n1sbut yes, i think B4gder nailed it, x5 and h300 are the only rockbox targets with those features
15:40:35B4gderwhoo, scary commit!
15:40:57Zagorit's halloween, isn't it? ;)
15:40:58n1sJ-23: where is endian.h included?
15:41:35J-23I'll paste whole output
15:41:47J-23http://pastebin.com/d71dbae29
15:41:56n1sZagor: great work, that bug was a pain :)
15:44:04ZagorI realized there was an option c) I hadn't thought of. This commit is it.
15:44:59n1sJ-23: are you on BSD by any chance?
15:45:17J-23no, Fedora 10
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15:49:04B4gdermy debian /usr/include/endian.h certainly doesn't define those macros
15:49:19B4gderZagor: 4 reds
15:49:40Zagoryup, I noticed
15:50:36Zagorah, I don't handle ENABLEDPLUGINS properly
15:51:56SpidaB4gder, LambdaCalculus37: so, do you know which hdds work in the h340 that are still available and larger than the original?
15:52:32n1sSpida: the ones mentioned on that page?
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15:52:50LambdaCalculus37Spida: The page linuxstb mentioned has all of the information you'll need.
15:53:11n1sthe connector is very important since there are quite a few different ones
15:53:16GodEaterindeed all the information we possess
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15:54:09B4gder"still available" is of course your job to find out
15:54:32peturSpida: MK8007GAH (80GB) or MK6006GAH (60GB)
15:54:40petursearch on ebay...
15:55:05peturthe 60GB is somewhat cheap, the 80GB stays quite expensive
15:55:18peturI have the 80GB and a CF-modded
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15:56:18*petur finds lots of 64GB CF cards announced but not on sale
15:56:49peturhmmm and 100GB CF too
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16:01:19DerPapst100GB CF o.O
16:01:51DerPapsti bet those are expensive as hell ;)
16:04:06B4gdernooo, vaporware are always cheap! ;-)
16:04:29J-23What CPU's are mounted in v2 players and what frequency they work on?
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16:04:36J-23s/on/at/
16:05:34B4gderAS3525 at 250MHz
16:05:58J-23can it be overclocked? ;)
16:06:10LambdaCalculus37AS3525 at 250MHz should be quite powerful enough to handle most of the codecs. :)
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16:06:29*LambdaCalculus37 prepares for any Monkey's Audio comments ;)
16:06:55Zagorpixelma: can you try some cygwin builds with my latest commits?
16:08:25*DerPapst tries to compile a 5G sim on cygwin currently.
16:08:33J-23LambdaCalculus37: yes, but I think about more than codecs ;)
16:09:00soapBagder, if you answered me before I apologize for missing it... but is the reason my build server only gets half the work-units of many others because of my slowish upload speed or something else?
16:09:01DerPapstJ-23: Doom 3?
16:09:07DerPapst:P
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16:09:31J-23KDE4 with KWin effects :p
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16:09:40DerPapstyay! :D
16:09:42soaphttp://build.rockbox.org/cvsmod/serv-20081103T145611Z.html for example. I only built for less than half the time of the average server.
16:09:44J-23hmm, e.g. cryptography
16:09:51B4gdersoap: most probably, yes. The build log should tell...
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16:10:16DerPapstuh...
16:10:23LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: No, we're saving Doom 3 for the iPod Classic port along with Duke Nukem Forever. :D
16:10:42DerPapsthah. even better ;)
16:11:28B4gdersoap: in the most latest round for example, roughly 60 seconds were spent on transfer from your server
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16:12:15B4gdermaybe the server stats page should better show transfer times...
16:12:29soapNo, tht'
16:12:36soapthat's fine - I was just curious.
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16:12:45gevaertsYes. Someone should add that
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16:13:24B4gder"dear mr Someone, we suggest you start working on your tasks soon, the list is getting big"
16:13:28soapperhaps I should build just sims since my build speed outweighs my upload speed.
16:13:44DerPapsthaha :D
16:14:15B4gdersoap: is the sdl builds working on your host? I have them disabled there I noticed now
16:14:16n1sjhMikeS: any idea which GPIO pin(s) are connected to the tuner on the beast?
16:14:50soapB4gder, the issues I had with sdl builds were the result of a bad stick of RAM, we believe.
16:14:55B4gderah ok
16:15:01B4gderI'll re-enable at once
16:15:18soapnow we'll see how faulty my assumption ws ;)
16:15:34soapaarrgghh, can't type today. ...my assumption was.
16:15:55B4gder(the enable/disable certain builds and servers is actually really nicely done in this system...)
16:16:01n1sZagor: if you stick a "FS" in front of the tak numbers in commit messages like "FS #1234" the funky script will make it a link on the frontpage :)
16:16:32ZagorI'll fix the script :)
16:16:50n1sB4gder: are you interested in more servers?
16:17:02DerPapstheh.. while talking of script fixing.. have you looked at my irc reader patch?
16:17:12B4gdern1s: always!
16:17:25ZagorDerPapst: oh right, that was, um, a while ago...
16:17:45DerPapsthehe :) do you still have the diff somewhere?
16:17:56n1sB4gder: i will see if my "server" box meets the criteria then!
16:18:14ZagorDerPapst: I guess the pastebin has timed out, so please put it in flyspray
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16:18:28B4gdern1s: if not, we won't mind you getting a new and faster one! :-P
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16:18:56DerPapstiirc i said "keep forever" if you still have the link. but i can put it on flyspray of course
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16:20:46GodEaterB4gder: don't forget "with a bigger internet connection"
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16:21:26n1smy connection is supposed to be 10/10 so i think it should be fine, I'm also less than 100km from the buildmaster
16:21:38*linuxstb wants a connection to the bigger internet
16:21:38soapBagder, logged into the rbclient account and built a sim w/o errors just now.
16:21:51B4gdergoodie
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16:22:31GodEaterB4gder: hypothetically, what happens when we have more build servers than targets (i.e. 1 per sim, bootloader, etc. for each target) ?
16:22:49soapduh, we add more targets.
16:23:03LambdaCalculus37GodEater: We will end up unraveling the universe. :)
16:23:10B4gderGodEater: assuming all servers are up, the last ones will just idle
16:23:21GodEater"last ones" being defined as what?
16:23:26GodEaterlast in your actual list ?
16:23:28B4gderyes
16:23:31LambdaCalculus37Or "last in line"?
16:23:41B4gderor I'll randomize the list to make it a funnier game
16:23:47GodEaterso some sort of round robin in the selection script would be in order
16:23:55soapif if if
16:24:08B4gderassuming we have that many servers, we can just discard the slowest ones... .-)
16:24:19GodEaterI was thinking the same
16:24:22DerPapstZagor: flyspray is missing a www category. where do you want me to add it? "User Interface" or doesn't matter?
16:24:23GodEaterwe should score the ones we have :)
16:24:47soapI think the ones we have get scored every build.
16:24:48B4gderGodEater: the tricky part with that is that we'd need to do the scoring over multiple builds
16:25:02GodEaters/tricky/interesting :)
16:25:04B4gderto get a fair score at least
16:25:06ZagorDerPapst: good question. sursprise me! :)
16:25:08B4gderhaha
16:25:15*GodEater adds this to Mr. Someone's list
16:25:25GodEaterlow down mind you, we don't have enough build servers yet
16:25:31*linuxstb thinks Mr Someone has better things to do
16:25:44GodEaterthat's why it's at the bottom of his list
16:25:58soapand if funman has his way we'll soon have a 5:1 ratio between builds and build servers. ;)
16:26:00*linuxstb needs to start protecting Mr Someone from being overwhelmed
16:26:12GodEaterwe need to get more build servers
16:26:34B4gder83 servers, then we're game
16:26:42B4gderonly 61 to go
16:27:07*linuxstb thinks Mr Someone can relax about that task
16:27:08GodEaterwow - we have 22 now ? That's good progress
16:27:18B4gder22 alive ones, there are some dead too
16:27:38*GodEater goes to check to make sure his isn't one of the dead ones
16:27:55B4gderhm, a yellow italian commit
16:28:23GodEaterwow - oldsch00l is a bit slow
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16:29:29B4gdermaybe I should switch off sdl builds from that
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16:29:50GodEaterdo we actually distribute them?
16:29:56GodEateror are they just to check they still compile ?
16:30:05B4gderthey're only built yes
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16:31:51B4gderok, I disabled sdl builds on oldsch00l
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16:33:37*amiconn reminds B4gder of the speculative parallel build idea
16:33:51GodEatermore work for Mr. Someone
16:33:54B4gderindeed
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16:34:16B4gderspeculative parallell and transfer-while-next-is-building are two good ideas
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16:34:50B4gdera stable freenode is another good idea
16:34:55DerPapstZagor: FS #9523 :)
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16:43:53ZagorDerPapst: rejecting patches is always a delicate matter
16:50:43*n1s wonders what one has to do to get that little logo next to ones nick in the irc logs
16:51:27B4gderthe usual: bribes, beer and threaten people with violence
16:52:08*n1s sticks a couple of stamps on a beerbottle
16:52:25B4gderZagor is the boss of that magic
16:52:26*LambdaCalculus37 buys a crate of beer and airmails it to Sweden
16:52:49*LambdaCalculus37 buys Zagor a lifetime supply of beer ;)
16:53:38Zagorn1s: fixed
16:53:51n1syay \o/
16:55:13B4gderthat beer arrived fast!
16:55:25LambdaCalculus37n1s: Are you talking about the little icon that indicates commit access?
16:55:49DerPapstZagor: i fear i don't get what you mean...
16:56:00n1sLambdaCalculus37: yes, but frankly i have no idea what it indicates :)
16:56:22LambdaCalculus37n1s: Just that you have commit access. :)
16:56:30*LambdaCalculus37 hasn't got one next to his name either
16:56:32ZagorDerPapst: oh, I misunderstood. never mind then.
16:56:46DerPapstok :)
16:57:49LambdaCalculus37And I have commit access.
16:58:16ZagorLambdaCalculus37: I didn't find you in the commit list. what is your commit username?
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16:58:29LambdaCalculus37Zagor: rmenes.
16:58:54ZagorI guess my list is broken...
16:59:10DerPapsti'm not in the commit list. may i get that icon too? :P
16:59:20n1sok, the "server" box builds a h300 sim in less that 100 seconds so i guess it's time to set up some dyndns stuff etc
16:59:29LambdaCalculus37DerPapst: Better have plenty of beer to send to Sweden. ;)
16:59:34n1ss/that/than/
17:00
17:00:06B4gdern1s: great!
17:00:09ZagorLambdaCalculus37: fixed. I need to change the way this is done.
17:00:16LambdaCalculus37Zagor: Thanks. :)
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17:34:49webguest26excuse me!
17:35:05B4gdersure, but don't do it again!
17:35:15webguest26I was wondering ...
17:35:26B4gderjust ask
17:35:52webguest26does rockbox nulify warrenty on the peurchased items?
17:35:56webguest26thanks
17:36:09webguest26mp3
17:36:09DerPapstno, you're welcome
17:36:24webguest26realy it doesn't!
17:36:26B4gderwebguest26: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GeneralFAQ#Does_it_void_my_warranty_if_I_us
17:36:29webguest26sweet
17:36:36B4gderyes it most likely does
17:36:41B4gderask your vendor
17:36:43webguest26oh!
17:37:00webguest26sigh! thanks
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17:38:27DerPapstheh. didn't know.
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17:39:32webguest26this sucks then.
17:40:03webguest26I was thinking of purchasing a new mp3 especially for that purpose
17:40:22webguest26now, I'll have to reconsider
17:40:36webguest26mmmm
17:40:43DerPapsti guess if something goes wrong and you're still able to restore it it's fine.
17:40:53webguest26well, is there a way to reverse the effect?
17:41:10webguest26or will they be able to trace it?
17:41:32DerPapstdepends on the device i guess
17:41:48webguest26hmmm ..
17:41:57webguest26trouble some
17:42:20webguest26I'll be getting a sansa fuze
17:42:34webguest2670$
17:42:42DerPapstdunno then.
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17:42:49webguest26$_$
17:43:08webguest26Hey, one sec.
17:43:15webguest26what he said ...
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17:43:26webguest26does it void the warrenty.
17:43:30DerPapstwait a bit until someone can answer that question or check the rockbox wiki for the fuze
17:43:44webguest26or the terms of service as well?
17:43:53LloreanWhether or not it voids the warranty depends entirely on what the warranty itself says.
17:44:06webguest26well, I know the fuze is not supported yet.
17:44:19LloreanSince manufacturers often change them, and you may have other warranties depending on where you purchase it, this is something you'll have to find out between yourself and wherever you get the hardware.
17:45:08webguest26well, most warrenties discuus modification and tampering with the product
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17:45:39webguest26so aiming for a shot in that direction is almost far fetched
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17:46:12webguest26I know, i'll purchase the fuze
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17:46:27webguest26and by the time the new build is released
17:46:35Lloreanwebguest26: Again, this is not a question we can answer for you. Read the warranty yourself, and ask them if they consider installing Rockbox a violation of it.
17:46:45webguest26the warrenty would have expired ..
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17:47:24webguest26okay, thank you very much then
17:47:31webguest26been a lot of help
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18:00
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18:43:47*pixelma doesn't see the point in those button tables in the plugin wiki pages
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18:45:04LambdaCalculus37pixelma: I think they were just added for quick reference, but do you have any objections to removing them?
18:46:20LambdaCalculus37I'm thinking that since all of the button maps are listed in each manual, we should just leave that information there and remove it from the wiki, keeping those pages as description-only pages.
18:46:29pixelmathey are in not very readable (and would be less if they would be filled out completely which they are usually not by far). The info is in the manuals and there you'll only see target specific things
18:46:56linuxstbShould we slowly replace each Plugin* page with a link to http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml - as long as the manual entry contains all the same information?
18:47:41pixelmaif I remember correctly, that issue was discussed at DevCon and more or less agreed on that we shouldn't have duplicate information, which is also harder to maintain
18:47:53LambdaCalculus37And as long as all appropriate plugins are also in the appropriate manual(s).
18:48:23linuxstbThat's what I mean - prior to removing the content of the Plugin* page, the manual entry for that plugin would need to be checked...
18:49:04LambdaCalculus37I agree there.
18:49:19pixelmasure, and I know a few aren't in the manuals yet
18:49:52pixelmamore work for Mr. Someone ;)
18:50:01LambdaCalculus37pixelma: Which ones aren't in the manual?
18:51:04pixelmae.g. Rockpaint as a recent forum thread mentions, or the settings dumper one...
18:52:38LambdaCalculus37pixelma: Looking at the Rockpaint Plugin page right now; we may need screencaps of all the appropriate sizes, and key mappings.
18:53:02LambdaCalculus37Other than that, I think we can just copy the information to a new manual entry.
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18:54:25LambdaCalculus37Or on second thought... no, we'll have to do some tweaking; the info on the PluginRockpaint page appears to cover iPod-specific control info.
18:59:51pixelmawhere?
19:00
19:01:21LambdaCalculus37pixelma: Actually, I take that back. Not iPod-specific, but the sentences "The cursor is moved using the 4 direction keys. Use the "select" (or "ff" on h10) button to draw." have to be changed, of course.
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19:02:30pixelmayou can even mention the correct button for each target there
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19:08:42LambdaCalculus37Bagder: Do you think that the new Sansapatcher versions posted at FS #9369 are ready to go up onto the master server?
19:10:46*gevaerts decides to write a ramdisk driver for rockbox
19:12:00DerPapstyay?
19:12:28gevaertsThere are real reasons for it :)
19:12:44DerPapstfor example?
19:13:15pixelmastriving for a new record? ;)
19:13:41gevaertsI'm actually working on support for targets to have more than one different storage drivers. Therefore, I need a device that does have more than one type of storage :)
19:14:07gevaertspixelma: I think I'll have a hard time improving my current one :)
19:14:11DerPapstah ok :)
19:14:26DerPapstyou beat them all :D
19:14:40gevaertsRamdisk is the obvious candidate, and it may be useful for ports in progress as well, so why not?
19:14:42DerPapsthmm.. should have used past no?
19:14:53DerPapstgo for it!
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19:16:53*amiconn would prefer an usb host driver for H300 instead
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19:18:53gevaertsamiconn: that will need multi-driver storage to be really useful anyway
19:19:12amiconnYes, exactly
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19:20:56gevaertsAnyway the ramdisk driver should be really easy to do, so it's a good starting point
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20:09:07bertrikthe bit-banged transfer algorithm I found yesterday in the fuze looks very much like I2C
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20:51:34kugelbertrik: do you already have found something to do with buttons? :)
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20:57:15bertrikno, was looking for that (really!) but found the i2c instead :P
20:57:37bertrikmaybe, just maybe, the buttons are read through i2c
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21:22:39*gevaerts grumbles about the lack of FAT12 support in rockbox
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21:23:38LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Who the hell uses FAT12 nowadays?
21:24:08gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: I do :) Seriously though, that's what I get if I format an 8MB disk
21:26:57linuxstbgevaerts: A 16MB disk seems to format OK as FAT16.
21:27:01rashergevaerts: from a bit of googling, it seems that fat16 should work for your 8MiB disk.
21:27:13rasherAlthough you may have to force the issue
21:27:29*LambdaCalculus37 has used FAT16 on floppies with success
21:28:00*gevaerts manages to format it as FAT32 :)
21:28:00linuxstbWith an 8MB disk, mkfs.vfat will format it as FAT16, but gives the message "WARNING: Not enough clusters for a 16 bit FAT! The filesystem will be misinterpreted as having a 12 bit FAT without mount option "fat=16".
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21:29:42gevaerts#define TEST_FAT should also be helpful
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21:33:00n1sBagder: IIUC you can now add dryice.dyndns.org to the server farm
21:33:26amiconngevaerts: A FAT16 volume must have at least 4085 clusters or it deviates from specs and will be misinterpreted as FAT12
21:34:06amiconnMinimum cluster size is one sector, so if you format this way, a FAT16 volume can be as small as 2MiB
21:34:43gevaertsamiconn: I found that out now. I'm now using FAT32 with too few clusters, and TEST_FAT defined to override the check
21:35:01amiconnThat's nasty stuff
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21:35:53amiconnIf you present such a volume via USB, windows *will* misinterpret it
21:37:17gevaertsI'm not trying the one-sector-cluster solution. That looks a lot more sane
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21:38:01gevaertss/not/now/
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21:39:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:42:45kugelbertrik: uh, aren't we already using i2c?
21:43:36bertrikkugel, yes, but it's possible to have multiple i2c buses
21:44:04kugelwhat does the datasheet tell you?
21:44:25rasherAny objections to adding a (hidden?) "all" option to rockboxdev.sh?
21:44:55*gevaerts grumbles
21:44:55gevaertsmake[1]: *** No rule to make target `/home/fg/software/rockbox-multidriver/build/bitmaps/rockboxlogo.h', needed by `/home/fg/software/rockbox-multidriver/build/apps/alarm_menu.o'. Stop.
21:45:00bertrikI have no datasheet of this part, this i2c bus is 'bit-banged' meaning it uses GPIOs to send read individual bits
21:46:22gevaertsmake bin is broken
21:46:24amiconngevaerts: Latest svn and 'make clean' before?
21:46:41gevaertsamiconn: full make works. make bin doesn't
21:52:51Learworks with the sim on cygwin at least... :)
21:53:07gevaertsAfter make clean?
21:53:35LearI did a full make in between...
21:53:49gevaertsIt works after a full make
21:54:33rasherMake bin works for a normal player build
21:55:32gevaertsIt doesn't work for me
21:56:00rasherOh wait, I haven't svn upped in a while
21:56:58rasherAh yes, there we go
21:57:22rasherSo it was broken recently (within the last week or so)
21:57:49gevaertsMy guess is that Zagor broke it while fixing the cygwin build issues
21:57:52n1sZagor: committed a buildsystem change today
21:58:25n1sIt's quite interesting how fixing one thing keeps on breaking something else...
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22:02:35LearBut this sounds fixable by adding a dependency to the bin target...
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22:15:26*gevaerts runs rockbox on a 4MB ipod mini :)
22:16:44rasherI hope you put some music on it!
22:17:20gevaertsOf course. I had 790KB free after installing rockbox!
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22:40:46gevaertsI'd vote to remove dircache, tagcache, and max. files settings from the quickscreen choices
22:42:05linuxstbI guess that goes for any setting that requires a reboot.
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22:43:44gevaertsYes, although I'd also throw these out if they didn't require a reboot
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22:58:27funmando you know where I can a list of the bits in the program status register of ARM ? (can't find it on google/arm.com)
23:00
23:00:50funmanhttp://www.heyrick.co.uk/assembler/psr.html < here it is
23:01:55gevaertsAny opinions on removing the partition offset handling from fat.c and moving it to a volume layer near storage? /me is thinking aloud
23:03:25bertriksounds like a sound plan
23:05:48n1sBagder: I think my server is now good to go, dryice.dyndns.org
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23:07:11funmanbertrik: did you see there is a driver in rockbox for a (hopefully similar) FM device with nearly the same ID number ?
23:07:22funman(than the FM device in the Clip,that is)
23:07:53bertrikno didn't see that
23:08:09Bagdern1s: hm, I can't connect to it with ssh nor ping it
23:08:10bertriksomeone mentioned the radio chip of the beast IIRC
23:08:20NorrinHello all. I have a Jukebox FM Recorder which is no longer working correctly and was curious if anyone knew of a repair service for them.
23:08:36gevaertsn1s: you forgot to mention the port :)
23:08:55n1sBagder: ah, port 2222
23:08:58Bagderah
23:09:02funmanbertrik: ah no I'm wrong .. it's the same than fuze & e200v2 :'(
23:09:13NorrinI had 2.5 loaded and when you push the on button, you can hear the HD spin up and sometimes the RockBox Logo appears but nothing else happens. The rescue boot doesn't do anything either.
23:09:31funmanSI470x - but I don't see any driver written for it
23:09:38NorrinI've tried other HDs but nothing appears to work.
23:09:52n1sNorrin: are the batteries good?
23:10:33preglowgevaerts: looking forward to reviewing your storage driver changes :)
23:10:36bertrikfunman, I was just thinking about how to write a driver for this family of radio chips and keep it generic so it can be reused
23:10:38Bagdern1s: all compilers and sdl installed?
23:10:48NorrinI think so. I've even tried with the unit plugged in and it doesn't seem to matter.
23:11:00funmanbertrik: sounds like a good plan
23:11:01NorrinHow can I tell if the batteries are good or not?
23:11:02bertrikthe beast has a si4700
23:11:04n1sBagder: yes, (not mipsel but i can add that if needed)
23:11:16Bagdermispel isn't used (yet)
23:11:25Bagdermipsel even
23:11:36funmanok, I was just grepping the config-*.h files to look for CONFIG_TUNER
23:12:22gevaertspreglow: they're not very useful yet. I'm just starting on the real work, i.e. actually supporting multiple drivers
23:12:46n1sNorrin: do they take charge are reasonably new etc? Another thing to check is the battery contacts, are they clean, maybe band them slightly to increase contact pressure (I am assuming this is an archos device)
23:13:02*gevaerts hopes to have that done in a week or so
23:13:44pixelman1s: the FM-Recorder has Li batteries
23:13:54Norrinyep, archos FM recorder V1. All looks like normal when I plug it in. Just like it has in the past.
23:14:13NorrinYep, the two that lay side by side.
23:14:24Bagdern1s: your server has been added, now all we need is a commit to see it get to work!
23:14:47n1sBagder: ok, I'll se if i can come up with something :)
23:15:39funmanbertrik: did you see we can hijack the OF init (well, before IRAM is filled up) and branch to our code?
23:16:37bertrikI read you were working on it, so it works now? great!
23:17:05funman'works' sometimes, I can't get the code/the display working everytime
23:17:41funmanI made the button led blink in my main() and I see it 9 times out of 10, but sometimes I jut can't get dispay - so I modify the code until it works (data abort/unhandled interrupt probably)
23:17:47bertrikI'm still a bit confused about some pins that seem to have a double (triple?) function
23:18:06funmanwell it's selectable by the as3525 registers
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23:18:32bertrikbut I would expect it to be fixed at initialisation
23:18:49funmanright
23:19:21bertrikSansaFuze should have a wiki I think
23:19:33LambdaCalculus37bertrik: Go for it. ;)
23:20:05*gevaerts wonders if a CPP wizzard can come up with a way to generate functions like http://pastebin.ca/1244384 for all storage_*
23:20:47funmangevaerts: ## ?
23:21:38gevaertsfunman: I'm sure that it will be a bit more complicated than that :)
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23:24:28funmanperhaps the buggy part is when I copy the bootloader from 0x30000 (where it's linked to) to 0 (to get the exception vectors in place instead of the OF's ones)
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23:29:41funmanyep I get better results now
23:29:50funmanstill I don't know what to look for
23:31:09bertrikcan you read all GPIO settings (direction, value, afsel, etc.) and all CCU spares?
23:31:25funmanah I forgot about CCU_SPARE
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23:32:10funmanI read the gpio already and they show nothing we don't set in the lcd init routine
23:34:07funmanit shows what we knew already (bit 2 of ccu_spare1 set)
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23:35:34bertrikok. what about CCU_IO. I see bit 7:8 has something to do with chip enables
23:35:47funmanbit 2 set (sdmci interface selected)
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23:49:57n1sBagder: what do you think of a change in this style, it makes a "make install" of a sim twice as fast for me, http://pastebin.ca/1244419 the problem is that when doing it like this the @APPS@ is not replaced by sed, would it be ok to hardcode "apps" here or should i mess with the logic to place it inside the block sed is operating on?
23:52:29Bagderwell, @APPS@ is always apps so we could in fact remove the entire @APPS@ thing
23:52:47Bagderbut then I'm not seeing how your change does the same thing as before
23:52:53funmancan Someone look at FS #9521 (bicolor simulator screen for the Clip) ?
23:53:20Bagderie it does a fullzip today and your change doesn't, isn't that a good explanation to some of the speed diff?
23:53:27funmanI'm not sure how to insert 2 black lines between the 2 regions however, and not sure if it's needed since the colors clearly show the separation
23:53:49Bagderfunman: such a fix could always be done at a later time anyway
23:53:53 Quit petur (Remote closed the connection)
23:54:21n1sBagder: my change does the same as fullzip but with -z "zip -r0" so that zip is not actually compressing the files and the extracting them
23:54:32n1sthen
23:54:36Bagderah
23:54:47rasherDo we have make tar still?
23:55:09Bagderwe do
23:55:19rasherMight it not be simpler to use that?
23:56:09n1srasher: simpler how?
23:56:11Bagderit could possibly be faster to not store the intermediate file at all but just pipe it
23:56:26Bagdern1s: simpler because you don't include the same logic once again
23:56:41rasherWhat Bagder said
23:56:44n1saha
23:57:13*n1s tries
23:58:39linuxstbHow does buildzip actually work? Does it create a (temporary) .rockbox directory and copy the files into it? In which case...

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