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#rockbox log for 2009-01-05

00:00:08new"you can't install themes please try it manually"...
00:00:17newoh sorry:)
00:00:59gevaertsnew: did you have a look at the manual? It explains all this
00:01:15newyes an FAQ
00:01:19newbut i can't see that
00:01:29 Quit solexx_ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
00:01:40saratoga2kugel: can the fuze just use the e200's keypad for jewels?
00:01:47kugelsaratoga2: I haven't seen a warning when I compiled, but I may overlooked it at the first time
00:01:48saratoga2new: r ead manual
00:02:04kugelsaratoga2: it does
00:02:19kugel+#elif CONFIG_KEYPAD == SANSA_E200_PAD || \
00:02:20kugel+ (CONFIG_KEYPAD == SANSA_FUZE_PAD)
00:02:23saratoga2can do
00:02:23newcould you give me link for it
00:02:29saratoga2rockbox.org
00:02:31saratoga2link is there
00:02:47 Quit gregzx (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:03:20saratoga2it would be nice if make would tell you at the end if theres any warnings
00:03:36saratoga2it can be difficult to catch them on faster machines since it scrolls so fast
00:04:57Unhelpfulmake &> build.log?
00:05:20Bagderand gcc -Werror ;-)
00:05:56kugelsaratoga2: oh, I didn't notice that part (the help texts are way down in the file)
00:06:11UnhelpfulBagder: that's another way, i suppose
00:06:15*kugel wants to point out again, that adapting plugins to new targets is a pain!
00:06:40BagderI often find running make inside emacs helps, as that shows warnings in a different color
00:06:50Bagderpossibly colorgcc thus is a good idea
00:10:03pixelmasaratoga2: I believe there is a patch for Fuze plugin keymaps in the tracker
00:10:19saratoga2pixelma: yes i'm about to commit it
00:10:34saratoga2who decides when builds are supported?
00:11:00Bagderwe ;-)
00:11:36saratoga2lets support the gigabeast
00:11:44saratoga2also do we have a name for "freddie"
00:11:57Bagderimo, it just takes a few devs who think so and I can make the necessary web/build site pokes
00:12:43 Quit timc ("Leaving")
00:12:50 Quit jhMikeS (Nick collision from services.)
00:12:56 Join jhMikeS [50] (n=jethead7@rockbox/developer/jhMikeS)
00:13:07 Join bmbl [0] (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/bmbl)
00:13:11Unhelpfuli'm content to use it without "support"... i think dualboot/uninstall takes care of everything we could expect for a "supported" player, though, right?
00:13:14saratoga2kugel: i'm going to email that guy and ask for his real name before I commit the patch
00:13:33saratoga2having it supported would be nice, and might encourage more people to work on the port
00:13:51saratoga2nico and mike could probably use some help
00:13:53 Quit bmbl (Client Quit)
00:14:24kugelsaratoga2: do that if you want, but I actually made it from scratch
00:14:38saratoga2kugel: oh ok then i don't need his name
00:17:43saratoga2kugel: i saw there were clip buttons too, how complete is the coverage for that target?
00:17:58kugelNo idea actually
00:18:12saratoga2ok i'll just say theres some buttons for the clip too then
00:18:22kugelbut it's pretty complete from what I've seen, and afaik plugins are enabled in svn
00:18:35kugeluhm, I didn't change clip buttons
00:18:49saratoga2oh i assumed those were patched when i saw them in there
00:18:51saratoga2thanks
00:19:08Unhelpfulkugel: i'd think not, because the yellow in my commit hit any target that builds pluginlib and isn't mono
00:19:26kugelsaratoga2: ehh, there's a hunk in jpeg.h which shouldn't be there
00:19:53kugelUnhelpful: ?!
00:20:16kugelclip is mono
00:20:42Unhelpfulkugel: yes, and i thought you were referring to fuze :/
00:20:52kugel:P
00:21:20Unhelpfulone of the few color targets i didn't turn yellow :D
00:21:33kugelsaratoga2: I hope you didn't hit the commit button already
00:22:56kugelyea, fuze doesn't have plugins
00:25:58saratoga2kugel: it builds them for me?
00:26:26kugelsaratoga2: with my patch, yes
00:27:02saratoga2kugel: so why shouldn't i commit?
00:27:54kugelthere's a hunk in jpeg.h which shouldnt be there
00:28:25kugelrestore "#define JPEG_SLIDE_SHOW BUTTON_REC" for the c200 keymap, then it's fine
00:30:54 Join MethoS-- [0] (n=clemens@dyndsl-085-016-161-023.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
00:32:27 Quit MethoS-- (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:32:57moossaratoga2: we need a .png of the best for the builds pages. IIRC that's pixelma our artist :)
00:33:11mooss/best/beast
00:34:11Bagderwe could use a manual too
00:34:25kugelnah :P
00:35:12pixelmathere already is a start of a manual for the beast (also an svg by aliask but that one has a bit of trouble)
00:35:55saratoga2technically we don't need a manual, at least the M3 doesn't have one
00:36:58Bagderbut then the M3 isn't in the 3.0 or 3.1 releases (partly or mostly?) because of that
00:37:20pixelma(I can't convert to all needed formats to included that graphic in pdf or the html version, I think I know the reason why and started an overhaul, halfway finished only though)
00:37:21 Quit Lynx_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:37:38Bagderbut I agree, we can claim it "supported" at any given moment now
00:37:57Bagderis there two other devs than saratoga2 that are in favor?
00:38:52moosBagder: you will not founs someone against, we are all for it, this port was usuable for long time now
00:38:57moosfound
00:39:01Bagdertrue
00:39:07Bagderso let's proceed
00:39:47kugelright now?
00:39:53Bagderis the S even visually similar to the F/X ?
00:40:06*kugel wants to participate in that ceremony :)
00:40:13Bagdersure, right now
00:40:13mooslet's ping jhMikeS for celebrate this, he made so much great works on it
00:40:18 Quit domonoky (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:40:58kugeljhMikeS: ping
00:41:00kugel:P
00:41:08BagderI can use the F image for now, or a dummy "rockbox"... which one is the better choice?
00:41:19 Join domonoky [0] (n=Domonoky@rockbox/developer/domonoky)
00:41:28kugelI'd take godzilla
00:41:34kugelthat fits beast best
00:42:03moosdummy rockbox maybe
00:43:39toffe82hte gigabeat S can now be officialyy supported, I found the update program :)
00:43:55toffe82http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/customersupport/
00:44:10Bagderploink, it's now present on the current build page
00:44:22toffe82search the mesv30 there is an iso file that contains the updater
00:44:31moostoffe82: good timing ;)
00:44:35toffe82yes
00:44:42Unhelpfultoffe82: seriously, *now*?
00:44:44toffe82I try it and it works
00:45:00toffe82yes official nk.bin available from toshiba
00:45:03Unhelpfulalso, isn't the mesv30 fw updater and nk.bin not the same as the beast on?
00:45:14moostoffe82: very nice
00:45:29toffe82try to download it
00:45:58toffe82the file is MESV12US.iso
00:47:11Bagderfront page updated too
00:47:11toffe82It is the official updater for the S series
00:47:19linuxstbDo we have a manual for the S yet, and things like bootloader and sendfirm downloads?
00:47:22moosBagder: cool
00:47:50jhMikeSkugel: yez?
00:48:03kugelbig party
00:48:03linuxstbAnd install instructions for Windows?
00:48:17toffe82jhMikeS: have you seen, I found the updater for the S
00:48:25kugeljhMikeS: the beast is going supported, we didn't you miss it
00:48:26*jhMikeS sings the theme to StarTrek Enterprise
00:48:39kugel+want
00:48:51jhMikeSI was getting the timer API working and wasn't paying attention :)
00:48:59 Quit mcuelenaere ()
00:49:03moosjhMikeS: woot
00:49:11 Quit robin0800 ("Leaving")
00:49:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:49:33*linuxstb thinks the "supported status" is a little premature but is apparently too late...
00:50:17Bagderthere are two reds in the table...
00:50:17mooslinuxstb: those reminding things could be done relatively fast :)
00:50:44kugelwow
00:50:49kugelhow did that happen
00:50:55linuxstbmoos: Yes, and then we announce it's supported...
00:51:03Bagder'RECd' ...
00:51:11Bagderlooks like a typo slipped in
00:51:19kugelI don't think it's mine
00:51:39kugelit compiled cleanly here, and fuze doesn't have BUTTON_REC
00:52:24mooslinuxstb: hehe, we changed the sequence this time then :)
00:52:37kugelsaratoga2: you were supposed to restore "#define JPEG_SLIDE_SHOW BUTTON_REC" for *c200*, not for fuze, besides that typo
00:52:45toffe82after extracting the iso file, you have to extract the exe file
00:52:47kugelsorry if I wasn't clear enough
00:54:00toffe82Bagder: an we post the updater on the wiki ?
00:54:07toffe82can ^^
00:54:34saratoga2kugel: you were clear, but I couldn't get windows to transfer the updated file, so tried editing in pico and oubviously it didn't work right
00:54:35BagderI don't see how we have permission for that unless it states we do
00:55:00kugelah ok
00:55:36toffe82So just the link , with the risk that it disappear one day
00:56:15Bagdertoffe82: yes, and of course others (like me personally) with less license concerns could host it
00:56:26toffe82;)
01:00
01:01:52 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
01:04:42kugelsaratoga2: I'm gonna finish the backlight code police, and sync the fuze's buttonlight & backlight fading patch (so this can be committed), but then probably calm down a bit with fuze hacking, and concentrate on other patches I have running (customlist, quickscreen)
01:05:01kugelelse I'm going to get the burnout syndrom
01:05:04saratoga2kugel: ok just let me know when the patches are ready to be commited
01:06:06 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
01:06:27kugeland, I really wish that the clip arrives soon, so that I can finally test which quirks are fuze specific and which are ams sansa related
01:06:47*kugel is still getting reboots on mp3 playback, which is just weird
01:07:06kugelseems watchdog kicks in, but I have no idea why
01:08:11saratoga2hmm seems that botched commit also corrupted my .svn files
01:08:27 Quit Schmogel ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
01:08:54saratoga2why would SVN give me a permission denied error when I run it without sudo?
01:09:27agaffneybecause your checkout is owned by root?
01:09:36_Auron_lol
01:09:44saratoga2its not
01:09:59saratoga2just started doing that today, always worked fine before
01:10:00agaffneythen why were you running it with sudo to begin with?
01:10:15saratoga2because it started giving me permission denied errors and i wanted to commit
01:10:18agaffneyheh
01:10:28agaffneyI guess that's a good reason ;)
01:10:48agaffneyif it just started all of a sudden, I'd run a fsck (assuming linux)
01:10:55 Quit flydutch ("/* empty */")
01:11:02agaffneyalthough, if you're using sudo, I guess it probably is :)
01:11:24agaffneyand also just do some sanity checks on the ownership/permissions of the files/dirs in the checkout
01:12:13saratoga2jhMikeS: how is battery life on the gigabeatS now?
01:13:00toffe82wiki updated with link and instruction to retreive the nk.bin for the S
01:13:24toffe82http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GigabeatSInfo#Official_Gigabeat_S_Updater_vers
01:14:05 Quit ender` (" Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain")
01:14:35saratoga2build system seems a bit stuck
01:15:39kugelBagder: I was wondering about ams sansas in the binsize delta table
01:15:40jhMikeSsaratoga2: I don't know if it really has changed
01:16:37linuxstbtoffe82: What do you mean by "extract the exe file" - use something like "cabextract" ?
01:16:58toffe82linuxstb: I use uniextract
01:17:00*linuxstb wonders how many more layers Toshiba could have added around that file...
01:17:36toffe82just use 7zip to extract
01:18:01saratoga2jhMikeS: any idea why its so poor?
01:19:02kugelBagder: would that be possible?
01:19:13*linuxstb now wonders who's writing install/uninstall instructions for the gigabeast, or preparing bootloader and sendfirm downloads for the download servers, or getting the manual ready...
01:19:18jhMikeSsaratoga2: No DVFS and no DMA for bulk transfers I'm guessing plays a role.
01:19:50jhMikeSThen again something more important could be overlooked but I don't know where atm.
01:20:12saratoga2so theres no boosting?
01:20:33 Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008121623]")
01:21:20jhMikeSsaratoga2: nope, it's 264 MHz all the time. handling that properly is not a simple matter and may require DMA to use predictive scaling.
01:22:07saratoga2i'm not familar with the imx31, why is it difficult to change the clock?
01:22:28saratoga2[ignoring that we probably want more then just a two level boost since it can change voltage too]
01:23:38jhMikeSsaratoga2: It's not hard to change the clock. It's hard when you get into the voltage scaling which is important to really save power since its quadratic.
01:24:31jhMikeSThe imx31 is just complicated hardware where doing almost anything is complicated. :p
01:25:17*toffe82 is leaving happy after discovering the updater for the S, 2 years searching :)
01:26:25Davide-NYCtoffe82: why not just link directly to http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/firmware/MESV12US.zip ?
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01:31:12 Quit saratoga2 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
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01:40:43 Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world")
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02:00
02:01:07 Quit JdGordon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:22:54 Join itcheg [0] (i=62db4767@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-de2d3738e1ac6612)
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02:49:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:49:32MOHDMACHSo I have noticed that most of the outdated themes do not work since some tags have changed in the current versions.
02:50:41MOHDMACHShouldn't they still load the .wps backdrop?
02:51:10 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (n=rmenes@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37)
02:51:19MOHDMACHThe only things that shouldn't be working if the theme is not updated is perhaps the progress bar and scroll bar.
02:51:36MOHDMACHOr am I overlooking something here?
02:52:28n1sif there's an error in wps parsing it isn't displayed at all
02:52:28LambdaCalculus37So it's official? The beast is a supported target at long last?
02:53:21MOHDMACHAh Ok
02:53:35MOHDMACHWhat's The beast?
02:54:00MOHDMACHA DAP perhaps?
02:54:14LambdaCalculus37The Gigabeat S. Our nicknames for it are "The Gigabeast" or just "the beast".
02:54:46MOHDMACHNice
02:55:01LambdaCalculus37jhMikeS: Ping
02:57:54MOHDMACHAw if only it was supported on a mac...
03:00
03:09:10 Join KOWHeigel [0] (n=416e9be7@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-98c7ac57a61f29e6)
03:09:34KOWHeigelHi
03:09:40notlisteningOut of interest are the speech capabilities of rockbox support under linux?
03:10:35 Quit KOWHeigel (Client Quit)
03:10:55notlisteningie can you generate the voice clips?
03:12:31 Join timc [0] (n=aoeu@124.93.243.83)
03:13:28 Nick JdGordon_ is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
03:14:56notlisteningand then to further my questions is the rockbox utility compatible with Linux?
03:15:57Aurix_Lexicoyes
03:19:43 Quit Seed (Nick collision from services.)
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03:22:53Unhelpfultoffe82: is that "update" the same version as the OF that shipped on them?
03:23:40n1snotlistening: yes to both questions
03:25:19jhMikeSLambdaCalculus37: Si?
03:25:45 Quit Seed (Nick collision from services.)
03:25:51 Join Seed [0] (n=ben@bzq-84-108-232-45.cablep.bezeqint.net)
03:26:35Unhelpfulre: the pluginlib scaling support... it's been suggested, and i agree, that the API macro should be defined in one header file (and possibly redefined in another one when building core files for plugins), instead of in the two files that currently use it
03:27:06 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
03:27:31notlisteningah just i am working on a project that implements the ms speech engine onto mac and linux and thought that might hold some interest for the rockbox project
03:27:59Unhelpfulany thoughts on the best place? it could easily go in bmp.h, albumart.c is the next file to go partially in pluginlib, and already includes that... but in the long run, maybe a new header file, or a more appropriate existing one for such a feature, is a better idea?
03:28:06LambdaCalculus37jhMikes: Are the rumors true? The beast is supported? :)
03:28:13n1slinuxstb: i agree "supported" status was a bit premature, also let's not forget the fdsik trick needed to mount on linux :)
03:28:32n1sLambdaCalculus37: check the frontpage! :P
03:28:33Unhelpfuln1s: util can fix that easily enough...
03:29:17n1sUnhelpful: yes but it is part of "making the installation sane" that isn't done yet
03:29:52Unhelpfulthat it definitely is. if only other OSes were as lax about partition table parsing as windows ;)
03:30:31LambdaCalculus37jhMikeS: Shouldn't an announcement mail go out?
03:30:55jhMikeSLambdaCalculus37: So I've been told :) It sort of happened all of a sudden thanks to saratoga
03:31:27LambdaCalculus37jhMikeS: Great start to the new year. :)
03:31:35jhMikeS'deed.
03:32:01XavierGrbeast is supported? what happened, what did I miss?
03:32:08 Quit blithe ("Lost terminal")
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03:32:30XavierGrwow the front page is changed indeed
03:32:40*linuxstb doesn't like to spoil a party, but hopes that the beast's "supported" status is reverted
03:32:55LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Why so?
03:33:05XavierGrwhat exactly changed to be supported? should I just read the logs?
03:33:13linuxstbXavierGr: Nothing changed...
03:33:36XavierGrI don't understand then...
03:34:16jhMikeShttp://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20090104#00:11:41
03:34:37linuxstbLambdaCalculus37: Because of the insane (and very poorly documented) install procedure. Plus no binary bootloader/sendfirm downloads. Plus no manual...
03:34:45n1sI think i agree with linuxstb, no manual and still not quite nice installation
03:34:49krazykit[21:31] < krazykit> she's like
03:34:54krazykitsorry
03:35:56LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: True.
03:38:01XavierGrlinuxstb: from the logs I see that the "no binary" problem is solved?
03:38:45linuxstbXavierGr: What binary?
03:38:54XavierGrnk.bin
03:39:19linuxstbI'm talking about a Rockbox bootloader download. Plus sendfirm to install it./
03:39:57Unhelpful...would it be possible for a "pure" rockbox nk.bin to boot another nk.bin for dual boot, instead of being hacked into a toshiba nk.bin?
03:40:15XavierGrlinuxstb: ah okay yes, but at least the goal for a flashing utility is now more close than ever
03:40:23Unhelpfulthat would give us a redistributable binary bootloader that's still dual-boot capable
03:40:43LambdaCalculus37Unhelpful: IIRC a "pure" rockbox nk.bin is only currently capable of booting Rockbox.
03:41:19 Quit Seed (Nick collision from services.)
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03:42:02Unhelpfuli know what it does now, if you don't use mknkbin with an OF nk.bin to create a dual-boot bootloader... i guess i'm asking is if we *could* do dual-boot by loading a separate OF file, instead of inserting rockbox BL into tho OF file...
03:42:37n1stoffe82: the NK.bin from your link has a different md5 than the "other" one, has it been tested?
03:42:49XavierGris the "random format" bug still relevant on the beast?
03:42:54linuxstbUnhelpful: Now that toffe has found the nk.bin, I don't think it's a problem - lots of Rockbox ports require patching an OF file, so the beast will just be one more in that category.
03:43:40linuxstbBut the format of nk.bin is documented, so in theory I think a Rockbox bootloader could load it.
03:44:23Unhelpfulalthough, if "download it in util, patch and install" is acceptable, that might be "easier"
03:45:15jhMikeSI was thinking about doing something where patching an nk.bin isn't needed.
03:45:33n1s...and it's about 40kB smaller so i'd say definitely a different version
03:45:53jhMikeSIf we can load our own plain bootloader, we should be able to load the original nk.bin with the bootloader instead of the reverse, no?
03:46:23n1ssounds reasonable
03:46:26Unhelpfultoffe82: you said it installs/works, right? did you see if it reports a version anywhere?
03:47:11linuxstbjhMikeS: Isn't that what Unhelpful just suggested? Or am I misunderstanding?
03:47:40jhMikeSlinuxstb: I'm not aware he suggested anything on the subject.
03:47:55jhMikeSah, missed that ;)
03:47:59linuxstb5 minutes ago....
03:49:06jhMikeSThe memory configuration needs to either be left alone in the bootloader or restored by it then.
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04:00
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04:01:39jhMikeSI need to try putting some usb buffers in IRAM which the Linux BSP seemed to make a point out of doing though there isn't enough IRAM to use in general where it's declared in the core.
04:04:17n1swill that speed up usb transfers or are they already limited by the disk?
04:04:40 Quit notlistening ("Leaving")
04:06:18jhMikeSThey're limited by the disk at least if it's a disk involved. Though if it helps at all it's worth it and IRAM isn't being used for anything but ROLO and mem remapping code.
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04:08:48*jhMikeS wonders about a priority system for the IRAM declarations based on available memory and criticality for the target
04:10:01n1sthat would be good if it could be kept reasonably simple
04:11:58 Quit n1s ()
04:13:37Unhelpfulhrm... would it perhaps work to write the calls as "API memset" etc, and leave API undeclared in core, declaring it as rb-> in the pluginlib wrapper files?
04:15:13Unhelpfulthat sounds worse to me than what's done now... :/
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04:29:42jhMikeSUnhelpful: what are you trying? I had some strange idea to make rb an implicit variable in the plugin header and initialize it in the loader instead.
04:30:44Unhelpfuli had suggested something similar, although i went with "how about just using an extern plugin_api *rb that the plugin is expected to initialize"... but the loader could, as well.
04:31:23jhMikeSwhat does that do?
04:31:35Unhelpfulthe real trouble here is that i'm building core files in the pluginlib, and they therefore need to use either open or rb->open, etc
04:32:36Unhelpfuli have an API(func) macro that defines as either func or rb->func depending on if the file is built with PLUGIN defined... and right now, that's defined in each of the two core source files that might also go in the lib.
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04:36:30Unhelpfulif a pluginlib object is compiled with an extern plugin_api pointer, it would just expect that symbol to be resolved at link time. whether it's written out explicitly in the plugin source, or hidden behind a boilerplate macro that all plugins use, it wouldn't make much difference, although having it initialized by the loader would mean not passing the API in on plugin start, and that pluginlib functions and the plugin itself could all j
04:36:30Unhelpfulust call rb-> without worrying about initializing it
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04:38:29jhMikeSOne thing that needs to be handled also is the the __div0 handler isn't there for plugins and codecs on ARM.
04:38:48Unhelpfulat least amiconn did not like the idea of lib functions relying on an implicit, predefined rb, so i have mine use a static one that they initialize when you call bmp_init and resize_init
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04:39:59LuigiHello
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04:40:42jhMikeSUnhelpful: I'd like to hear his reason for it because I'm not seeing any disadvantage at all.
04:41:49Unhelpfulhaving an implicit one would also mean that we could get rid of that macro that defines mem* functions wrappers
04:43:11jhMikeSPersonally, I prefer the 99.9999% of cases to be trivially easy even if the other .0001% get a little more difficult
04:43:33Unhelpfulwe didn't really talk about the reason, and it wasn't hard to do things the way other pluginlib files do
04:44:02Unhelpfulthe API() wrapper macro is really a completely separate issue, that i brought up because i have no idea which header file such a thing should be in
04:44:16jhMikeSI'm not sure why they can't simply use the same implicit pointer without it being initialized manually.
04:45:00jhMikeSI mean is there one single instance of code since plugins were created that ever uses something else?
04:46:15Unhelpfuli don't know, i've only looked at jpeg, pictureflow, and ppmviewer, pretty much.
04:46:41Unhelpfuland at greylib, which stashes its own at init - but its init actually does other work, as well.
04:48:43jhMikeSAn implicit rb for general use wouldn't prevent passing a different one to an init anyway.
04:49:16Unhelpfulno, although i can't imagine why you would, at that point?
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04:49:53jhMikeSme neither, that's why it always puzzled me a bit
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04:50:43jhMikeSA diffent loader can always init rb to something else anyway
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04:53:12Unhelpfuldon't have any thoughts on the API() wrapper business, though?
04:53:57jhMikeSTo do rb->fn() or just fn()?
04:54:03Unhelpfulright
04:55:12jhMikeSPerhaps it would do for now but API() doesn't really tell what it is. RB(fn()) would tell better, then you know it's a core call.
04:55:22toffe82Unhelpful, nls : the original version is 1.0 (632.4), this one is 1.2(632.4)
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04:55:52toffe82somebody have to test the mkboot if it istill work
04:55:53Unhelpfultoffe82: *huh*. i've read and read and read that there were never any updates.
04:56:26toffe82Unhelpful: it comes from toshiba and when you run it you see a gigabeat S on the screen
04:56:43toffe82we have to check if the mkboot still work
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04:57:34*toffe82 is starting is ubuntu VM to try
04:57:50jhMikeSUnhelpful: I don't know any other way to go essentially without revamping the plugin system :\
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04:58:22toffe82or somebody already test it ?
04:58:58jhMikeSA load of #if PLUGIN #else #endif stuff would be miserable viewing
04:59:28Unhelpfulthere are still always going to be such defines - bmp.c is built in *both* places on mono now, but differently for each
04:59:55Unhelpfulcore gets it stripped of everything scaling-related, lib gets it stripped of as much unscaled stuff as i could manage
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05:00:27jhMikeSA few aren't bad but _lots_ for individual function calls?
05:00:44Unhelpfuli went with API since essentially that's what i thought of it as doing, selecting an API, either direct function calls or via rb
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05:01:41Unhelpfuloh, no, i wouldn't want to put those around every call. i used API for all core function calls, and #ifdef PLUGIN where i need different code in the source file itself, aside from the function call.
05:01:52jhMikeSmeh, doesn't really matter I guess. just my naming preferences
05:02:58Unhelpfuli would happily switch them to RB if there's a consensus favoring that. really, i was thinking of the question of one place to define it.
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05:04:49jhMikeSconfig.h? It is sort of a configuration for code compilation.
05:05:50Unhelpful...and pretty much everything includes that. i've generally avoiding stuff under /firmware, because i know that i don't know what belongs in there ;)
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05:07:38toffe82the gigabeat is still dual booting with the new version of the OF
05:08:08Unhelpfultoffe82: that's fantastic. i wonder why nobody seems to know about this update, aside from us?
05:09:07toffe82I looked so many time and it was on the toshiba site, but they have so many site that I just miss this one
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05:12:17toffe82it is working with this version , I have rockbox running and dual boot with OF version 1.2
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05:19:54saratogalinuxstb: for what its worth I just went through the gigabeat s install procedure and its actually not very difficult
05:20:04saratogaand there is a Windows binary of the patch program already posted
05:20:57saratogaso really all we need to do is update the install procedure wiki, and provide binaries of the program that merges the OF and rockbox bootloader (or better yet arrange it so that they dont' need to be merged)
05:21:16saratogaand eventually finish the manual and then integrate in rbutil, but thats less urgent i think
05:21:17Unhelpfuli don't really have time to get anywhere with prepping albumart.c for pluginlib tonight... i think i'll just sleep on the idea of moving API into config.h, and do that sometime tomorrow if nobody has anything else to say on the topic
05:22:17Lloreansaratoga: it's not "urgent" to call it "supported" on the webpage either.
05:22:27LloreanI thought we were now waiting for having a manual to call targets supported, these days
05:22:53toffe82_and perhaps a real easy install
05:23:02saratogai think thats only for the releases, since we support the m3
05:24:02LloreanThe M3 has some strangeness with not having main buttons that keep a manual from being properly created without some redoing of the manual system. It's not as simple as "it just hasn't been written"
05:24:27saratogaok didn't realize that
05:24:51LloreanBut even disregarding the manual, we should at least have RBUtil support I think.
05:25:00LloreanSince that's our "main" or "non-developer-tool" installer now
05:27:02saratogayeah but rbutil is in c++
05:27:14saratogai don't even know how to go about working on that
05:28:01toffe82_rbutil should be able to call an external program
05:28:32toffe82_if you have one that can merge and send the firmware
05:29:22saratogawe have the sendfirm program, which can patch the gigabeat, but not setup for dual booting
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05:30:38Unhelpfulmknkboot can set up dual booting
05:31:58saratogawe'd need to improve it to be able to acquire an nk.bin though
05:33:09Unhelpfulrbutil already downloads other things, surely there's a function to call with a URL and filename?
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05:35:17saratogaUnhelpful: its inside an exe inside an iso inside a zip
05:35:38saratogathats probably going to take a fair bit of effort to unpack in c/c++
05:36:06Unhelpfulis it compressed inside the exe? if not, we just need to unzip, and then to know which range of bytes it is...
05:36:12Unhelpfulif so, yes, more trouble :/
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05:36:37saratoga2its a compressed installshield
05:36:58Unhelpful:/
05:38:04ameyereww, exe inside an iso inside a zip
05:38:09saratoga27zip can unpack all 3 and has an open source library under the GPL, so maybe thats an option
05:38:19Unhelpfuli'm guessing we're not about to start bundling python with util, eh? because, really, this sounds like a job for a script.
05:38:37*ameyer wonders wtf toshiba was thinking
05:41:27saratoga2alternatively, we could do the undelete trick too, which has the advantage of being really simple
05:42:19toffe82_perhaps this version fix the problem of random reformat of the gigabeat s
05:42:48ameyersaratoga2: you'd want to make sure the OF isn't Blagojeviched.
05:43:02ameyererm... corrupted.
05:43:31Unhelpfultoffe82_: i've always assumed that that was due to us / user on host pc doing something OF didn't like
05:44:27toffe82_Unhelpful: we have to try :)
05:44:41Lloreanameyer: Seriously, leave the political commentary, etc, to other channels.
05:45:03Unhelpfultry what, exactly? i know more than one way to *make* it flip out and force reformat
05:45:47toffe82_we could have an option to look for the file aon the disk and leave the unpack to the user
05:46:18Unhelpfuland mine hasn't done it spontaneously in ages
05:46:23ameyerLlorean: screw you
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05:47:12Unhelpfullast time i remember was that PP usb stack thingy that caused it to write unitialized memory to the disk instead of the user data from USB
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05:48:10saratoga2its not like checking if a file is intact given a known hash is difficult . . .
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05:48:59Unhelpfultoffe82_: did it format your media partition when you pushed the firmware update?
05:49:09Lloreansaratoga2: But can we check it *before* writing the bootloader?
05:49:43saratoga2Llorean: no, but provided its a fresh install it should never fail
05:49:44LloreanThat came out wrong
05:50:02LloreanIt's impossible that the bootloader could be written over some of it, then?
05:50:14saratoga2i guess worst case it fails and we give them the download link and tell them to do it directly
05:50:24Unhelpfulwe don't know that with absolute certainty, but it's fairly unlikely
05:50:34saratoga2Llorean: as I understand its a transcational file system, so I believe it actually copies the file first and then deletes the old one
05:50:54saratoga2but yeah thats only an assumption
05:51:09saratoga2it would seem rather insane to delete the old firmware before confirming the new one is any good though
05:51:14UnhelpfulTFAT couldn't ensure transaction safety if it overwrote the blocks with the original file data before changing the directory entry
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05:59:08Unhelpfultoffe82_: you were asking about sendfirm... i think i see the fix.
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06:00:26Unhelpfulthe header doesn't have the parent id argument anymore - presumably this was dropped, and you set the parent id in the passed LIBMTP_file_t now?
06:03:22Unhelpfulthat gets it compiling again, i'll try sending after i back up the media
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06:27:37sadmacI have a Sansa Fuze, and I'd like to help test Rockbox on this platform. Does anyone know how dangerous the code for this particular device is right now (I'm only worried about permanently bricking it. Data loss is no object.)
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07:05:07toffe82_Unhelpful: I just delete the argument
07:09:25toffe82_the change on the libmtp site said "Bomb in storage ID support everywhere" between revision 1.88 and 1.89
07:10:27toffe82_deleting the last argument of the function make it compile again and the sendfirm is working after that
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07:37:58lucentsadmac: not particularly dangerous
07:38:09lucentsadmac: which model Fuze do you have?
07:38:57sadmaclucent: 8gb, model # BL0807AXZK-8GB
07:39:31lucentI don't know that other part, but 8GB Fuze okay. Which OF (original firmware) version did it have loaded?
07:40:15sadmaclucent: good question. I upgraded it because I had an issue, not quite sure what the old one was.
07:41:48lucentsadmac: 1.x.x.something or 2.x.x.something or 3.x.x.x.something is enough information for me, since SanDisk does hardware revisions and changes the first number in the firmware revision as an indicator
07:42:30sadmaclucent: Its running V01.01.11A now
07:42:40sadmacit had 01.01.07 I think
07:42:59lucentah neato
07:43:17lucentlet's chat for a minute in privmsg, to avoid pissing off the devs :)
07:43:23sadmack
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07:56:31Bagder"Please note that i.MX31 Reference Manual describes some modules not fully due to fact that this information is regarding as confidential. [...] please apply to Your local Freescale representative. Probably one will have to sign NDA agreement with Freescale."
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07:57:38Bagder(quote from Freescale support)
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08:16:06amiconn_jhMikeS, Unhelpful: The nastiness with just using 'rb' is that one assumes that every plugin has a global api pointer, and every plugin is calling it 'rb'. Iirc there is at least one plugin which doesn't set a global api pointer at all.
08:17:26amiconn_JdGordon: Fyi, flashing rockbox on archos is working again.
08:19:11 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
08:19:27amiconnHowever, I now think that this global SYS_FOURHERTZ is somewhat nasty. It's a sys message that appears rather often, and it could break any button sequence using a precondition, meaning that short presses (press-release) and single long presses (press-repeat) could fail, confusing the user
08:20:27amiconnMaybe it would be better to add a flag parameter to the default event handler, with one bit specifying that it should redraw the status bar
08:21:59amiconnThis would solve the problem that the bar should be redrawn more often if there's button activity, it would also allow for different screens having different update frequencies (by using an appropriate timeout in get_button_wtmo()), and it wouldn't disturb places which don't need the status bar and want to use plain button_get()
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08:24:16jhMikeSamiconn: it's only one pointer used if it doesn't use it
08:25:09amiconnIt is a potential crash problem
08:25:15*jhMikeS just wants to know if its just his gigabeat F where mpegplayer is messed
08:25:32jhMikeSpotential crash problem?
08:26:42*jhMikeS tries other players with latest revision
08:26:51amiconnIf a plugin uses a function that relies on the "magic" rb, but rb isn't initialized, the plugin would crash
08:27:12jhMikeSrb will be initialized, by the loader
08:27:39amiconnHmm? How could the loader init it. It's a plugin variable.
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08:27:57jhMikeSin the header so it know where it is
08:28:51amiconnThat won't work in the sim
08:29:47amiconn(iirc)
08:32:56jhMikeScan a pointer to the variable be exported in a module?
08:32:56JdGordonamiconn: ok good...
08:33:21JdGordonim nto sure putting it into the default_event_handler will make it any less problemati
08:33:23JdGordonc
08:35:37jhMikeSwe do have dlsym to get the header so I don't see a problem so far
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08:40:00amiconnJdGordon: Well, now SYS_FOURHERTZ essentially makes button_get(true) useless
08:40:31JdGordonyeah... did you mean putting the call to the event handler into there?
08:40:34amiconnIt acts almost the same as button_get_w_tmo(HZ/4)
08:40:42amiconnno
08:41:36amiconnYou can't save more energy by using longer timeouts now, and you always have to handle SYS_FOURHUERTZ (which is nasty)
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08:42:26amiconnI mean putting the call to status bar redraw into default_event_handler(), with a flag stating whether it should do that redraw
08:42:48JdGordonthat redraw call is there already...
08:43:04amiconnSo why do we need SYS_FOURHERTZ then?
08:43:16JdGordonand remember, this event is not ONLY for the statusbar redrawing... it could very well be used for something else later
08:43:46JdGordontick task sends that event into the button que which eventually gets into the event handler so its run in the main thread
08:44:13amiconnI know. I was asking why we need it, if the status bar redraw is already called from the default event handler?
08:44:30amiconnSYS_FOURHERTZ is doing more bad than good, imo
08:45:09JdGordonno, the statusbar redraws are in the SYS_FOURERTZ case in the event handler
08:46:04JdGordonits the only way to get a mostly reliable update frequency eerywhere
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08:50:56amiconnJdGordon: But at what price? SYS_FOURHERTZ disturbs any place that has no needs for such a regular event now
08:52:03JdGordon4hz is not very often... and I asked the channel more than a few times for a better way to do it before even starting on it...
08:52:24JdGordonbut yes, handking it in screens its not needed would be better
08:54:29amiconn4hz can either be too little or too often, depending on context. It's just inflexible
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08:55:04*JdGordon is still (sort of) open to better suggestions
08:55:06amiconnYou're often saying that you asked in the channel, but at the same time keep telling me I should use the tracker so things aren't forgotten...
08:55:30JdGordonand you dont see the difference there?
08:55:56amiconnAnyway, I'm not saying the idea of a generic status bar handler is bad (it saves code and makes things more uniform), just I don't like the global event (*after* having seen its effects)
08:56:33amiconnThis is how development often works, you try something, see which parts are bad, and (hopefully) redo them in a better way
08:56:59*amiconn even dropped the whole graylib in favour of the new greylib
08:57:03JdGordonmy ultimate goal for this way to be able to have a full WPS redrawing in the "background" which requires fast updates and this timer would work
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08:58:38JdGordonsticking the handler call into get_action might be better.. as long as screens which dont want it updated disable it
08:59:28amiconnHmm, get_action might in fact be a better place, since the default handler isn't called for events handled by the respective event loop itself (without adding special measures)
08:59:49jhMikeSmpegplayer on e200 is messed too (trying to seek)
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09:03:38JdGordonamiconn: sometinhg like http://pastebin.com/d1997e4b8
09:04:15JdGordonwhich means screens will never see that event iof they use actions
09:04:37*jhMikeS goes revision hunting
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09:09:47amiconnJdGordon: No, that's not what I mean
09:10:23amiconnThe redraw could happen in get_action_w_tmo(), and SYS_FOURHERTZ could be removed
09:11:28amiconnThis would solve the 'volume redraw problem', allow screens to use their own flexible redraw frequency, and stop disturbing button loops which don't need to handle a status bar
09:13:42jhMikeSwell, it's during the 1 Jan daily. 31 Dec is fine.
09:14:04amiconnAnd get_action* shouldn't call default_event_handler.
09:15:04amiconnjhMikeS: I suspect r19622 too here (SYS_FOURHERTZ)...
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09:16:37JdGordonamiconn: your confusing get_button_w_tmo() with get_action()... the first is in firmware/
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09:17:36amiconnJdGordon: No I don't
09:17:57JdGordon" <amiconn> The redraw could happen in get_action_w_tmo(),"
09:18:02amiconnyes
09:18:07jhMikeSReally, I can see a way that the status bar doesn't require busy updating if the systems that effects a particular area send events to it (like powermgmt giving it battery notifications).
09:18:13amiconnThat's in apps/ and hence is allowed to call other apps code
09:18:44JdGordonthere is no such function.. unless your talking about creating it
09:19:04amiconnBut it should only handle the redraw, not default_even_handler in general. Some button loops need to handle specific events themselves, and these events then must not be passed to the default handler
09:19:33JdGordonjhMikeS: yeah, that would be good.. but wont help if/when we ever get full WPS able screens (With the list/menu/rest of screen in a single viewport somwehre
09:20:06amiconnJdGordon: I assumed it would exist, same as button_get and button_get_w_tmo. If it doesn't exist, it should very probably be created
09:20:23JdGordonamiconn: my snippet does that...
09:20:30JdGordonget_action() has a timeout parameter
09:20:37jhMikeSJdGordon: how not? it can either say it wants certain updates or not or ignore ones provided if the element is absent.
09:20:41amiconnHmm, then that's what I mean
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09:21:19amiconnget_action would just *always* redraw the status bar once per call, if the status bar is enabled
09:21:50amiconnYou then control the update frequency via the timeout parameter.
09:22:30amiconnAdditionally you get more frequent redraws when there's button activity - the solution for the volume update problem, and you get rid of the global event at the same time
09:23:02JdGordonhmm.. yeah that could work
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09:27:20JdGordonyeah, that definetly makes the volume chainging nicer
09:28:05JdGordonwhats a good name for the event it triggers? EVENT_GUI_ACTIONUPDATE sucks
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09:32:27jhMikeSone thing I noticed is even if the statusbar is not displayed on a screen, it still offets the text (debug screens show this)
09:33:42JdGordonwhich in particular? seems to work fine here
09:34:25jhMikeSIf they don't use lists, like View HW Info
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09:35:29jhMikeSView HW Info doesn't restore the GUI font either
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09:39:10jhMikeSdefinitely r19622 where mpegplayer symptoms start
09:39:47JdGordonwierd.. buffering works on target but doesnt fix the font in the sim.. and yeah, that should get fixed with this change
09:40:36 Quit XavierGr ()
09:42:33JdGordonjhMikeS: does http://pastebin.com/d771e6a66 fix mpegplayer?
09:42:49JdGordonamiconn: check that one out...
09:43:58jhMikeSI'll check.
09:44:12*JdGordon is a tiny bit worried this will kill future plans though :/
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09:47:51jhMikeS**** Only garbage was found in the patch input. <= ??
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09:50:22JdGordonjhMikeS: jdgordon.info/~jonno/rockbox/changes.patch">http://jdgordon.info/~jonno/rockbox/changes.patch
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09:50:38JdGordonpastebin probably broke it
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09:52:08jhMikeSdefinitely better
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10:02:58jhMikeSJdGordon: mpegplayer seems ok with that patch
10:03:29JdGordonok
10:10:26jhMikeSthough I wonder if it isn't indication that something needs to be handled differently in the seek loop
10:15:13jhMikeSJdGordon: Is it going to be in soon? The problem sort of interrupted other work. :)
10:16:45JdGordonyeah, i've wandered to other stuff now.. but in the next few hours
10:17:02JdGordonunless its urgent i can ci now.. but would like to double check some screens
10:17:39jhMikeSaye, I'll just keep it patched then since it's not really related
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10:25:17jhMikeSI figure, why steal the codec thread stack and not just steal the codec thread? It's quite a bit simpler to have it call a function passed to it.
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10:34:54*JdGordon sends the pxies off to get Zagor
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10:38:27JdGordonok, there is a bug in the force_redraw handling in the statusbar code...
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10:49:16JdGordonWhy arnt we disbaleing the debug menu? they dont really serve any purpose...
10:49:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:52:10kugel?
10:52:27lucentkugel: hi, happy new years 2009 to you
10:52:38lucentdid the Clip arrive?
10:52:53kugelnot yet :(
10:53:01lucentoh too bad maybe it is lost in the mail
10:53:04kugelhappy new year to you too
10:53:30lucentor "slow boat to (China)"
10:53:36kugellucent: can you build a svn for your fuze and install it?
10:53:50kugeland watch out for pixel garbage on the screen?
10:54:04lucentkugel: sure, it will be tomorrow though, I am restoring from a backup my computer's OS and such
10:54:20kugelok, no hurry
10:54:43lucenthad an accident with a recursive 'rm' and an extra ' ' between the leading '/' :/
10:55:02kugeluh
10:55:47lucentanyways I made a mistake and it will be fun to try more patches on my Fuze :)
10:56:05kugelbuttons and plugins is in svn, so less patches
10:56:32kugelbut I'm actually asking for a test on a unpatched build
10:56:42lucentoh okay
10:57:40lucent40GB more to copy here, I'm going to sleep. Glad to hear that your patches made it to the SVN. Good night! :)
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10:58:02gammyG'day. My iRiver iHP-120 finally gave in. Do you guys have any specific rockbox-"compatible"
10:58:06gammyerm.
10:58:15gammyG'day. My iRiver iHP-120 finally gave in. Do you guys have any specific rockbox-"compatible" player to recommend?
10:58:19lucentgammy: no currently supported device in production
10:58:28gammylucent: I know.
10:58:32lucentgammy: iPods can be found broken and fixed for cheap
10:59:04gammylucent: Any specific model that's nicer than others?
10:59:09lucentotherwise, there's some hope for the Sansa AMS targets (Fuze, Clip) but it's off-topic for this channel to suggest targets that aren't supported; I'd note that OF is pretty good on the Fuze
10:59:29gammylucent: OF?
10:59:34lucentoriginal firmware
11:00
11:00:04lucentrockbox development patches the OF to get the bootloader onto Sansa AMS targets for now
11:00:06gammyI've grown so attached to rockbox :|.
11:00:55lucentdid the iHP-120 just die or is there a mechanical part like a hard disk that is not working? You could replace a broken part
11:01:13lucentrockbox should work on devices that have their drive replaced with a compact flash storage
11:01:15kugellucent: "for now"? I don't think that will change
11:02:00jhMikeSJdGordon: What purpose don't they serve?
11:02:09gammylucent: Yeah I know
11:02:13gammylucent: I don't know yet actually
11:02:23gammylucent: It gives me an "ATA error -1"
11:03:03lucentgammy: maybe try the rockbox forums or anythingbutipod forums
11:03:05gammySo I'm obviously presuming drive failure :)
11:03:11lucentotherwise I don't know what to suggest here
11:03:15gammyI would assume it was a documented error ;)
11:03:29gammylucent: I'd get a flash replacement but they're so damn expensive here
11:03:47gammyI can probably get a working second hand iHP-120 for half the price of just the new flash drive.
11:04:19kugelgammy: what about non-flash replacement?
11:05:07gammykugel: I asked in this channel regarding that some months ago. Everyone said flash was the way to go :]
11:05:17gammykugel: Ie it's still cheaper to get a new player.
11:05:29kugelsure, but if it's not affordable
11:05:52gammycheaper usually means affordable
11:05:58gammybut hey
11:06:02gammyit's been a few months
11:06:08*gammy rechecks prices
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11:12:42gammymmm. Poopy. :(
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11:15:41pondlifeJdGordon: Happy New Year
11:15:58pondlifeIs the status bar meant to appear in the virtual keyboard screen?
11:16:00JdGordonyou too
11:16:06pondlifeIIRC, it used to.
11:16:20pondlifee.g. Save settings
11:16:51*JdGordon slaps pondlife with something heavy
11:16:58JdGordonI really want to finish these fix commits :p
11:18:10pondlifeMaybe by 2010? ;p
11:18:17pondlifeAnyway, back to work
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11:18:25JdGordonseems to be the same problem as the eq screen... never was changed to viewports
11:18:34JdGordonoh thats just mean!
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11:22:46gammyDoes anyone have any idea why ebay wants me to enter a "PIN" ? I have no idea what it's refering to.
11:23:03kugelisn't pin just your user name?
11:23:11gammyit only takes 4 digits
11:23:17gammyso I don't see how that's possible :P
11:23:34kugeloh
11:23:37gammythe FAQ does not mention it -at all-
11:23:57kugelwell, either phishing or you landed at paypall
11:24:08gammyshiptrack.ebay.co.uk
11:24:15kugelbe careful
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11:24:26gammyI am very careful.
11:24:27gammyheh.
11:24:55gammyhaha.
11:24:56gammy"Sorry, you have exceeded the number of allowable phone call or PIN-entry attempts"
11:24:59gammyOk.
11:24:59gammyFine.
11:25:03gammyTwat service
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11:27:07gammyoh now I get it :P
11:27:17gammyebay called me and gave me a number on the phone.
11:27:26*pixelma points at the topic
11:27:40gammyAh sorry.
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11:38:36amiconnJdGordon: I have some ideas regarding vkeyboard rework
11:43:29JdGordonshoot
11:43:39JdGordonor better yet... do.. :)
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12:00
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12:32:49jhMikeSIt seems odd that removing a thread slot wouldn't show up as saving some bytes on everthing SWCODEC. :\
12:33:15JdGordonall depends on ram alignment probablyy
12:33:29jhMikeSI think it's the IBSS
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12:48:28kugelJdGordon: so does statusbar work again?
12:48:45*kugel goes trying himself
12:49:10*JdGordon hopes so
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12:51:28kugelJdGordon: how's it working now? redraw on timeout in action_get? + redraw on button press?
12:51:59JdGordonevery call to action_get
12:52:04JdGordononce per call
12:52:30JdGordonworks better, but cant be used as a general purpose timer which might not be so horrible
12:53:14kugelso, if the timeout is low in a screen, it will be redrawed quite often?
12:53:35kugelthe debug menu is messed up, bw
12:54:04JdGordonyes, and NO ITS NOT!
12:54:14*JdGordon is on strike! :p
12:54:40kugeltry going into view buffering thread and go out again
12:54:53kugelthe debug menu has sysfont here after exiting
12:55:20kugelbut going upwards again to the system menu, it's font ui again
12:57:19JdGordoni fixed that already
12:57:44kugelwell, before your commit the font in the list was ok, just splashes had sysfont
12:57:56kugelI downloaded a current build, so
12:58:40JdGordonthat was fixed in 19681...
12:58:46JdGordonyou sure its still happening?
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12:59:31kugelI'm running r19686
12:59:35kugelyes, I'm sure
13:00
13:00:02kugelha
13:00:06kugelthe splashes are fine now
13:01:03kugelplus, all those debug screens don't show the statusbar, but have the offset
13:01:52kugelexiting star.c doesn't reactivate the statusbar...
13:01:59kugelstar.rock*
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13:04:53jhMikeSI must admit I'm still getting strange results in debug menus and sometime the bar doesn't reappear.
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13:10:19kugeljhMikeS: seems he's serious with striking ;)
13:10:44*jhMikeS calls in the strike breakers
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13:12:06JdGordonsomething is wierd and i cant see it... exiting from plugins and reactivating the bar should force a redraw.. but it doesnt
13:13:25jhMikeShmmm, are there viewport changes of any sort?
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13:31:40t0masgood morning :)
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14:07:25JdGordonah, DOH! plugin.c clears both displays after the plugin exits... which isnt needed (which is why the statusbar appears to not get displayed)
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14:12:15JdGordonhmm... the lists do something funny... going into the "view buffering thread" screen AFTER one of the screens which use the list will leave the sysfont set... but going in without going into one which uses the list doesnt!
14:14:03JdGordonand the whole viewportmanager_set_statusbar() thing in debug_menu.c is just wrong... I'll fix that tomorow
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14:31:37Unhelpfulamiconn: i just don't think that requiring plugins to call an init function that does *nothing* but copy a plugin_api pointer is any less nasty than requiring that they provide one, or having the loader initialize one. i'm not sure why having the loader initialize a plugin-header-declared API pointer can't work in sim... even if it has to be done differently from the target load, it's not like that would be the only difference
14:33:33Unhelpfuland if the loader really *can't* do it, it could be declared in the plugin header, and initialized in plugin_start by a required macro, call it PLUGIN_INIT or something
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15:00:43kugelJdGordon|zzz: "going into the "view buffering thread" screen AFTER one of the screens which use the list will leave the sysfont set" that's what I was telling you before
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15:11:44Unhelpfulre FS #9758, any objections to committing it as-is? In most cases where the build is from git, the git commit ID should be as good as an svn revision, and possibly better, since the dev can see where the build came from in their local history, as well as the base svn revision.
15:12:59LloreanI'm personally not sure how I feel about that.
15:14:04LloreanPeople often build on their own, then report bugs against a specific revision. At least with the source download tarball, I think you still get the same version number when you do so, so currently people building on their own at least report a number we here can understand.
15:14:05t0masUnhelpful: I can think of a lot of objections
15:14:38t0masthe "official" repo is still svn..
15:14:52Unhelpfulwould adding the svn revision as well as the git id answer the objections?
15:14:58t0masso if you want to change it.. maybe go through the mailinglist?
15:15:24LloreanUnhelpful: I'd say the number Rockbox reports should always be the SVN revision, personally. I don't think it should build with a different looking version number just because you checked out the source a different way.
15:15:27t0masfor me it would.. but it might be good to give everybody an opportunity to voice an opinion and use the mailinglist?
15:15:33LloreanIt should follow the same rules as SVN checked out source.
15:17:50Unhelpfuli'm not trying to change the official repo... but godeater at least often deals with blocked SVN access, if i recall, that was why zagor was working to get git http access working
15:19:29UnhelpfulLlorean: i'd be fine with making it work "just like" things do now with git-svn... but alex may have a point in that a developer build from git could be lacking useful information if it doesn't also have the current git commit ID as well.
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15:19:43LloreanUnhelpful: What useful information is that?
15:20:10UnhelpfulLlorean: the build's place in the developer's local work
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15:21:30LloreanUnhelpful: That might be better handled some other way.
15:21:53Unhelpfulwhat about appending the short ID after the date, and still putting the svn rev in front?
15:22:21LloreanMaybe a version-control specific second file that's a bit more complex (for svn it could do an "svn st" on the relevant source folders showing modified files for that build, and for git it could do whatever you git folk need and show a git ID too)
15:23:36Unhelpfulhrm... i'll work on it. having a file in the zip or such with more detailed info might be "even better" than just having the ID, anyway.
15:23:46LloreanI'm just not sure I like the idea of the number Rockbox reports to users ever changing based solely on version control use.
15:24:13LloreanBut I don't disagree with the reason why something like it might be desired, just that specific aspect of it.
15:24:26Unhelpfulok, i'll have to think about it. :)
15:24:52LloreanIf it's the best way, I'd be in favour of it, I'm just not convinced it's the best way yet. :)
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16:54:42Daniele87hi
16:55:01Daniele87rockbox can run on the Samsung YP-K3J QB?
16:55:04krazykitno
16:55:10Daniele87dho..
16:55:23krazykitthe only supported devices are listed on the front page
16:55:42Daniele87well.. ok thanks! ^_^
16:55:51LambdaCalculus37And you can also read this page: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NewPort
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16:56:34Daniele87only a thing.. someone have this mp3 player? (YP-K3)
16:56:59BagderI'm sure _someone_ has it
16:57:31LambdaCalculus37Someone _does_ have it here.
16:57:38LambdaCalculus37We're speaking to them right now.
16:58:15Daniele87..lol
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17:50:44MarcGuaybertrik: Thanks for the heads up about problems with version/credits strings.
17:51:50MarcGuayrasher: I'll need some advice on how to create a new string in the langs later on (at work now). I didn't realize that "Version" was being shared by both the actual version line in Rockbox Info and the one that was changed to "Credits".
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18:24:02UnhelpfulLlorean: what about a version string of r<svnrev>-<date>-<commitID>, and we add, for both svn and git, and possibly only if there are local changes, a build-info.txt that details local work?
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18:25:16Unhelpfulperhaps svn status output for svn, and git diff −−stat between HEAD and the last svn import rev for git?
18:26:22Unhelpful...can svn produce a pretty diff-stat output for local changes?
18:28:11linuxstbUnhelpful: What is "commitID" ?
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18:41:57Unhelpfulthe shortened hash of the git commit ID... for svn, i don't think we can add much more to the version than to say that there *are* local changes, right?
18:44:37LloreanUnhelpful: Why would we need it in the version string if it can be in build-info.txt then?
18:44:39J-23will Rockbox migrate to GPLv3?
18:44:57LloreanAs I've said before, my main objection is the fact that it's in the version string. Repackaging it so that it looks different but is still in the version string doesn't really resolve this...
18:45:01LambdaCalculus37J-23: Rockbox is currently GPL2 or later.
18:46:02J-23so I can select if I want to use its code as licensed with GPLv2 or v3 (or v4, v5, ...)?
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19:07:12Unhelpfulperhaps just a "-custom" if the source differs from the stated svn rev? i could swear we used to do something like that for svn, but i might remember wrong.
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19:09:07Unhelpfulmy thinking was basically "it would be nice if the displayed version for a test build would tell the dev who made it what it really was", but really, somebody testing a developer build can read a build-info.txt
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20:17:50NicosmosHi :D
20:17:51NicosmosI search the Rockbox iPod Nano Patcher for Linux.
20:17:51Nicosmosdownload.rockbox.org does'nt work
20:18:07NicosmosSomeone have a copy ? Thanks ;)
20:19:16Unhelpful..it doesn't?
20:19:42Nicosmos... oh ! now it works
20:20:02Nicosmosit didn't 5 minutes ago
20:20:47Nicosmosthanks, bye, i go listen music :D
20:21:26 Quit itcheg ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
20:21:28Nicosmos(is it normal when my iPod baterry is totally empty I have to re-patch my iPod ?)
20:22:06BigBambino
20:22:12BigBambijust recharge it
20:22:50NicosmosYes, but when I recharge it, the ipod boot on the original firmware
20:23:07BigBambiThen reset it to get back to Rockbox
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20:23:19NicosmosRockbox is here, but does'nt boot if i don't repatch
20:23:24BigBambiDo you have hold on when you start charging?
20:23:31BigBambiNicosmos: It does
20:23:45BigBambiRockbox dual boots, and doesn't require repatching everytime
20:23:58Nicosmosit's not a dual boot
20:24:01BigBambiIt is
20:24:07Nicosmosi never use the original firware
20:24:11BigBambiSo?
20:24:18BigBambiRockbox can dual boot
20:24:28BigBambiThe manual explains how to switch between them
20:24:34Nicosmosok ok ... but i don't have a nice dual boot like on a computer with a choice ...
20:24:44BigBambiIt does, by enabling a button
20:24:54Nicosmosok, it"s not the problem :D
20:24:55BigBambiWhich is *much* quicker than a menu
20:25:58BigBambiIf you read the manual to see how to switch between firmwares, you should be able to narrow down what is happening when you plug in the charger (ipod is off and you have hold on maybe), and also how to get back to Rockbox from the Apple firmware
20:26:07Nicosmosin any case, i have to repatch every time the battery is totally empty (it's not really a big problem because patch take 1 second)
20:26:08BigBambiYou do *not* need to repatch it everytime
20:26:15Nicosmosok
20:26:23Nicosmos(but it's works :D)
20:26:29Nicosmosthanks
20:26:51Nicosmosi will read more the manual
20:26:52Nicosmosbye
20:26:58BigBambiCheerio
20:27:00Nicosmos(now, music :D )
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21:10:29ZagorjhMikeS: what are the thresholds when voltage scaling needs to be done? what happens if we simply restrict boost to the highest speed that does not need higher voltage? or is that not fast enough?
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21:13:26saratogadoes the build script automatically assume my system can build a sim, or do i have to add that along with the cross compilers to the script?
21:13:26 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
21:16:01jhMikeSZagor: What's the issue? I think being able to run it maxed out is important eventually. I could just set the divider to 4 to get 132 MHz but voltage points tend to be finer than frequency points (at least in the linux BSP code).
21:16:49ZagorI'm just wondering if we could simplify things a bit
21:16:54saratogainitially it might be nice to just boost at constant voltage between 30MHz and 264MHz [or whatever the current max is]
21:17:13saratogai expect that would give a very large savings in power because the change in clock would be so great, even at constant voltage
21:17:30jhMikeS132 won't be enough for video however. 264 isn't really any better than gigabeat F in terms of performance.
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21:17:52Zagorok
21:18:43saratogaor i guess 33MHz
21:18:54jhMikeSI don't think you can run it that slow (30 MHz). The BSP doesn't run under 133 (532,266,133).
21:19:01ZagorUnhelpful: ping. what is this API(fn) I read about in the log? I'm not sure I like the sound of that...
21:19:10saratogathere must be a way to get lower then that if its an mp3 player
21:19:23saratogafast armv5e decoders need ~20MHz
21:19:59jhMikeSNot with a proper clocking of other parts relative to the core.
21:20:09amiconnarmv6 should be able to get even lower than that, something between the stated 20MHz and the 10MHz possible with arm neon
21:20:55jhMikeSamiconn: To actually set the core to that frequency or is that the MHz required for decoding?
21:21:10amiconnGigabeat S at 264MHz is almost twice as fast as gigabeat F at 300MHz when it comes to higher ape compression levels
21:21:29amiconnjhMikeS: Just what's required for decoding
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21:29:08Krisinuanyone play mmorpgs?
21:29:23_Auron_no.
21:29:38*gevaerts points to the topic
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21:33:19UnhelpfulZagor: a means for letting the same code compile using either direct calls to core functions, or the plugin API
21:33:39Unhelpfulit's a good deal less messy than #ifdef for each such call... but still pretty messy.
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21:34:25ZagorUnhelpful: yeah, I just found the commit. it is indeed rather messy. exactly how much binsize is this fiddling saving?
21:35:40Unhelpfulcan't say precisely... it wouldn't be hard to build a scaling-capable core bitmap loader on mono, but i didn't really think *any* binsize cost would be deemed acceptable for it, given that the feature is useless in core.
21:37:01ZagorI must say I fail to see how the feature is at the same time totally useless in core and vital in pluginlib...
21:37:11Unhelpfulcore doesn't have greylib.
21:37:49kugelit's useless with mono, but useful on greyscale, and the greylib makes it possible for plugins
21:38:01BigBambitoffe82: you there?
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21:38:54kugelUnhelpful: but I wonder why even have rb-> for that
21:39:10kugelAFAIK it's not so uncommon to have pluginlib functions without rb->#
21:39:18DJuniah_is there anyone in here that has worked with rockbox's USB support?
21:39:22kugele.g. the smooth/simple resize isn't prefixed with that
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21:40:07Unhelpfulkugel: smooth resize doesn't call open or read itself, does it?
21:40:32*scorche|sh pokes domonoky
21:40:45gevaertsDJuniah_: yes
21:40:49*domonoky pokes back
21:41:12kugelUnhelpful: I don't think so
21:41:23Unhelpfulinstead of API, maybe functions built in the pluginlib, that wrap the core functions? then their invocations in the source don't need to change
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21:41:37ZagorUnhelpful: could you do a "full" build for a mono target and see what the damage is? I'm begining to wonder if the code quirks are worth the savings.
21:41:39kugelbut that's not the problem is it? I mean you can always do #define open rb->open before including the .c files
21:42:13Unhelpfulkugel: either that, or do something like the mem* wrappers defined in plugin_api do
21:42:22kugelZagor: I think they are. mono essentially also low mem
21:42:44Zagorkugel: well that depends on the size saved
21:42:55DJuniah_gevaerts: I'm a gigabeat S user and i just wanted to ask someone how large of an undertaking adding USB host support would be. The stock firmware has it and i could see it being useful. Say if you plug in a thumb drive and wanted to browse it via rockbox's file browser and copy some files over, or just play files on the attached drive. Is there any code in now to support that, or would i need to start writing from scratch?
21:43:07ZagorDJuniah_: in a word: huge
21:43:28kugelwhat's the point of having useless code in the core? just to make the code a bit prettier?
21:43:32Unhelpfuli don't really like those, very much, they wrap a function in another function, and *even* if they get inlined, they can't be declared static or inline, and will thus end up being in the plugin as code :/
21:43:49kugelI agree that API isn't so nice, but it's accaptable (especially if it gets a better name)
21:44:23DJuniah_Zagor: yeah, i assumed so, i was just curious if there was any work done on it already before i started looking into it
21:45:11amiconnUnhelpful, Zagor: Another option would be just duplicating the code, but that leads to the problem where fixes/improvements are applied to one implementation but not the other
21:45:33gevaertsDJuniah_: I'm not aware of any significant work on host
21:45:34kugelI think this can be done with almost 0 changes to the core files, and without duplicating code
21:45:41*amiconn is reminded of the completely missing utf-8 handling in the greylib's _putsxy()
21:45:45Unhelpfulforking a file is pretty much the last way *i* would want to do it, but if consensus is that it's the "best" way...
21:45:47DJuniah_do you think it would be better to tackle this as a file copy/browse plugin or as a full-on patch?
21:46:34gevaertsFull support would be easier I think
21:47:07kugelUnhelpful: if you define some wrapper about the func's you need before including the .c, and remove that #ifdef PLUGIN everywhere, the core files are pretty much unchanged, and the result is the same (except for the slightly larger plugins), isn't it?
21:47:16Unhelpfultrying to access hardware in a plugin that the core does not support sounds nightmarish to this completely hardware-ignorant person ;)
21:47:17amiconnFixed now, but went undetected for months. Unhelpful's work on pictureflow for grey targets made it show up...
21:47:25ZagorI would like to know how much we save, before evaluating options. hundred bytes? five hundred? five KB?
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21:48:03Unhelpfulkugel: slightly larger, possibly slightly slower if gcc fails to inline the wrappers.
21:48:41*Unhelpful points out that amiconn must accept some credit for greylib pictureflow :P
21:48:56gevaertsDJuniah_: there are several parts in this. The main part is the driver and API for the actual USB hardware, then you need a host-side MSC implementation, and then you need to integrate that in the rest of rockbox. I think those bits are in decreasing order of amount of work (but I can be wrong)
21:49:05Unhelpfuli seriously would've happily left the tiny nearest-neighbor scaler as the only thing on greyscale targets. :)
21:49:07kugelUnhelpful: I think the point isn't to make the most efficient and smallest code, but rather some kind of proof-of-concept?
21:49:19amiconnUnhelpful: Obviously, it wouldn't work nearly as nice without the greylib :P
21:49:19Zagorgevaerts: don't forget hub support. that is a beast.
21:49:21kugelI doubt that it'll make much of a difference anyway
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21:49:56Unhelpfulthere's a tiny visible difference in 2-bit greyscale images at realistic target sizes, actually. i ran tests.
21:50:04gevaertsZagor: hub support is nice to have, but I think we can skip it at first
21:50:23Zagorgevaerts: can we? isn't the root hub always present?
21:50:35kugelUnhelpful: visible? What do you mean? does the scaler give different results with what I proposed?
21:51:24Unhelpfulkugel: that was addressed to amiconn, sorry. the HQ scaler is a tiny bit nicer than the LQ one from my initial scaler commit. also, loads more maintainable.
21:51:26gevaertsZagor: yes and no. The root hub is controlled differently than "real" hubs.
21:51:29DJuniah_gevaerts: yeah I've done some USB work on other platforms but i just wasnt sure if there was anything done already before i started tearing through code, thanks for the info
21:51:51Unhelpfulalso, i think the wrapper functions idea can be done nice and cheap, with a few little changes
21:52:08gevaertsZagor: actually, full hub support isn't *that* complicated
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21:52:40Zagorgevaerts: If you say so. I have only read the spec, and got scared. :-)
21:53:01kugelUnhelpful: what you also could do is "fork" the non-plugin parts into another file, and include that in the core on non-mono
21:53:06Unhelpfulstruct plugin_api will need to be defined somewhere that does not include any of the core header files with the "real" function prototypes. then the wrappers can be declared static inline, and will likely be converted into direct API calls.
21:53:15kugeland don't include that for plugins on mono
21:53:26kugeli.e. reduce #ifdef PLUGIN to SOURCES
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21:54:12Unhelpfulkugel: there would be places where source code is included into the middle of functions, with that solution. i feel that might be nastier than other ways.. :/
21:54:16kugeljust an idea, probably not worth thinking about it further
21:55:04Unhelpfulif just config.h is included, that will be enough to cover the parts of struct plugin_api that need to be defined conditionally, right? or won't it?
21:56:34gevaertsZagor: there are some complexities in handling full and low speed devices on high speed hubs, but the rest is simple. Most of the scary things in the spec are only scary if you want to actually implement a hub
21:56:37ZagorI think kugels original #define open rb->open suggestion is the best so far
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21:56:59UnhelpfulZagor: will that "work"?
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21:57:24Unhelpfuliirc an #undef open is needed first to make it happy...
21:57:43amiconnZagor: #define open rb->open might be problematic, as it clashes with the sim's redefinition of open (and friends)
21:57:43ZagorUnhelpful: no, only if "open" is macro. which it isn't.
21:57:52Zagoramiconn: ah, good point
21:58:25Unhelpfulamiconn: could do it differently on sim, if the core-wrapper stuff is hidden inside pluginlib, that would be not so bad
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21:58:41Unhelpfulthere are some parts that way in plugin.h already, aren't there?
21:59:33UnhelpfulZagor: i thought that i had tried to do #define open rb->open, and that gcc had yelled at me if i did it without an undef first... but maybe i remember incorrectly, i tried a few different things before getting it to work, and i was tired.
21:59:49Zagoron recorder, core and pluginlib bmp.o differs by 936 bytes
21:59:55amiconnUnhelpful: Sim, perhaps?
22:00
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22:00:27UnhelpfulZagor: which is larger? core, i'm guessing?
22:00:48amiconnThe .o size doesn't really tell much
22:01:18Zagorwell you've named them a bit confusing. :-) the pluginlib file (which is named core_bmp.o), is the larger one.
22:01:40*Unhelpful didn't name apps/recorder/bmp.c ;)
22:02:16Unhelpfuli thought that the core_ prefix, in pluginlib, would make it clear what the file was for... but it is definitely a bit confusing :/
22:03:05Zagoractual .text segments differ by 364 bytes
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22:09:25*Unhelpful is going through bmp.c to make a NastyHack version of core scaling on mono, should be buildable in a few
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22:16:43ZagorUnhelpful: can you please please pretty please try a build with the conditional compiling removed? I've tried stripping it myself but I think I'm doing something wrong.
22:17:57UnhelpfulZagor: i'm working on building on mono with resizing in core.
22:19:33*kugel is wondering how useless resizing really would be for mono
22:19:54kugeljust in theory, it still can be used to resize icons, doesn't it?
22:20:01Unhelpfulkugel: it's pretty awful, i've tested.
22:20:48Unhelpfulit *could*, there's even a #define you can change to let it allocate scaler scratch on stack for small bitmaps, but scaled, dithered mono is really quite ugly.
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22:24:19UnhelpfulZagor: this might take until a bit later. i'll try that, though.
22:26:12Zagorok
22:30:06kugelZagor: I did a rework of the backlight fading code police patch
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22:31:36kugelI think it's good know, the only thing I'm not sure about is that I needed to "include" backlight.h for parsing features.txt
22:32:04Zagorkugel: ok, I'll take a look
22:32:25kugelI didn't make a patch of it yet, but I will in a few minutes
22:32:32kugelafter adding some explaining comments
22:32:36Zagoroh ok
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22:48:39Zagoramiconn: how do you feel about removing the backlight fade time options?
22:49:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:57:01kugelZagor: I was going to write to the -dev ml (maybe even "-user" ml?
22:57:04kugelabout that
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23:11:21saratogahttp://www.runcore.com/newsshow.asp?ID=194
23:11:30saratogathese are apparently 1.8" ZIF SSDs
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23:13:12saratogado we have a theory about the seemingly endless download.rockbox.org connection issues?
23:14:04*Bagder checks
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23:16:42kugelquestion: isn't contrast essentially backlight brightness on mono targets?
23:17:07pixelmadefinitely not - otherwise it wouldn't work on Ondio...
23:17:10kugelfrom what I've seen, the clip could have a nice contrast based backlight fading
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23:17:31gevaertsThe clip is an entirely different beast...
23:17:37Zagorkugel: well the clip doesn't have backlight :-)
23:17:38kugelpixelma: hm, yea, on those classic mono's it's not the same, right
23:17:46kugelZagor: it does
23:18:02kugelbacklight, but no backlight brightness (i.e. no configurable levels)
23:18:16Zagormy clip display is very very black
23:18:16gevaertskugel: sure? Have a close look :)
23:18:21kugelbut contrast, which serves the same purpose on this unit
23:18:39kugeleh
23:18:46kugelpicky people here :/
23:18:54gevaertsThanks :)
23:18:55kugelyes, it's not backlight in the classic sense
23:19:13gevaertsWell, backlight is light coming from the back...
23:19:16Zagorkugel: you're right, we could use contrast fade on the clip. it could be rather pretty.
23:19:51kugelwhile we're at figuring this, why's there several backlight options on the clip?
23:20:19kugelZagor: yea, I thought that too, it has many levels, should be very smooth. I just fear the lowest level isn't dark enough
23:20:24bertrikcontrast 0 isn't really dark
23:20:59Zagorindeed. I never tried it before.
23:21:10gevaertskugel: you could use greylib :)
23:21:16BXCraceromg it' so cold outside, it show -20C
23:21:34BXCracerdamn eurpoe
23:22:04kugelgevaerts: well, that's not available in the core, so no ;)
23:22:22gevaertskugel: plugin-on-fade?
23:22:47kugelwe need a plugin based greylib background daemon
23:23:07kugelfor rich wpses and proper backlight fade on mono :D
23:23:31bertrikand AA?
23:23:56 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:24:00kugelno rich wps without AA!
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23:24:49MarcGuayrasher: Around?
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23:40:01*Bagder removes the dead mirrors from the download dns entry
23:40:07Bagdermirror even
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23:46:32Zagorbertrik: what is stopping you from committing FS #9611?
23:46:59Zagorit only affects currently-in-development targets, doesn't it?
23:47:36bertrikI'm confused by the audiohw interface. I don't know the proper way to enable line in without HAVE_RECORDING enabled
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23:52:52Zagorok
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23:54:07linuxstbBagder: Any opinion on the Gigabeat S?
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23:55:25linuxstbMarcGuay: Did you intend to add a BOM to the start of english.lang?
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23:55:42MarcGuaylinuxstb: No.
23:55:58MarcGuayWill fix.
23:56:03linuxstbThat, plus adding a newline at the end of the file were the only changes in your "convert to utf-8" commit...
23:56:32linuxstbOr rather, removing the newline...
23:56:33MarcGuayStrange. I changed it from ANSI to UTF-8.
23:56:48linuxstbYes, but as it is pure ASCII, there should have been no changes.
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23:57:43MarcGuayHonestly I don't really understand that depth. Is there something I should do to fix it at this point?
23:57:45Bagderwell, I don't have a strong opinion on the beast - I was trying to get a sense for where devs are in this topic in general. I do however not think that manuals and install methods etc have to be in perfect shape before we call it "supported".
23:58:16linuxstbBagder: You didn't wait long for opinions... ;)
23:58:43Bagder"supported" for me is to enter the state where we start caring about bug reports and discussing it "everywhere" is more ok

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