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#rockbox log for 2009-02-23

00:00:46BigBambiBagder: linux I assume:)
00:01:15Bagderand this is with a gcc built with ?
00:01:24linuxstbCygwin I believe.
00:01:47Bagderyes, that'd explain the "fun" /opt/arm
00:02:02BigBambiBagder: Sorry, I was being facetious - you accidently nick completed Chanserv :)
00:02:15*Bagder didn't even notice! ;-)
00:02:18Chestetabadger were you talking to me? lol
00:02:19 Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:02:31Bagderme tired? nooo
00:02:54Chestetaah sorry about the lol; I know the rules... :/
00:04:19Unhelpfulhrm, another complication with the linked list version, and centering cache coverage, would be the fact that right now, slides that haven't been loaded into the cache aren't *part* of the linked list
00:04:22BagderI find it a bit silly that the ar command line sends errors to /dev/null
00:04:35Chestetaanyways; were you asking me what i compiled on? I am running windows 7 beta 7000, also I am using Cygwin; reinstalled (to try and fix my problem) 2-3 nights ago so everything in cygwin should be up to date...
00:04:42Bagderon lin 1365 in that pastebin
00:04:42 Quit bertrik ("Leaving")
00:04:51rasherBagder: that seems silly, yes
00:05:01BagderI would assume it would reveal something otherwise
00:05:41rasherYou'd hope so
00:06:13Unhelpfuli guess the "center" pointer would then point to the LL element closest to the actual center index?
00:07:15 Quit Kevets ()
00:07:33BagderChesteta: does the problem happen on the same file when you re-run make?
00:08:22Bagderthen edit out the ">/dev/null 2>&1" from line 18 in apps/codecs/libdemac/libdemac.make
00:08:49Bagderand run make again
00:09:09Bagderhopefully that ar command that fails there will say something more
00:10:19Chestetawell if i run make agian (just a 'normal' "make" ) I get a bit more info however I dont know if its included in the initial output
00:13:03Bagderwell, that's not the same failure ...
00:13:06 Join pixelma_ [50] (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
00:13:06 Quit pixelma (Nick collision from services.)
00:13:12 Join amiconn_ [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
00:13:12 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
00:13:17rashertry make clean, then make V=1 again
00:13:19 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
00:13:30 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
00:13:37Chestetai notice that my libdemac is in \apps\codecs\demac\libdemac\...
00:13:42Bagderright, that probably happens because of the first failure
00:14:20BagderChesteta: right, I told you a slightly wrong path
00:14:42Chestetaok no problem; i thought it may be the cause of the error or something
00:19:27Chestetai removed line 18 and its compiling now :)
00:19:49 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
00:19:59rasherWhy did you remove the line?
00:20:17Bagderit'll fail to make the ape codec surely
00:20:55Chestetaah damn; misread
00:27:08 Quit Zoxc ()
00:27:39 Quit jfc (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:29:09 Quit Davide-NYC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:32:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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00:33:27 Quit tessarakt ("Client exiting")
00:33:33 Quit faemir ("Lost terminal")
00:36:13Chestetaok; got it
00:36:22*linuxstb commits his work-in-progress beastpatcher for WIndows, and hopes a Windows dev takes up the invitation to clean it up...
00:36:44LloreanSo it looks like we'll have USB and the Gigabeat S for 3.2?
00:37:00LloreanThough it sounds like charging via USB may need some fixing on the iPods similar to the Sansas
00:42:44Chestetanote: i had fixed the libdemac.make (and only deleted the part i was instructed to)
00:43:57rasherChesteta: But now it's giving an error in another place, which also hides the error message from us :\
00:44:29rasherChesteta: humour me and try disabling any virus protection you have enabled? Then run make clean and make again?
00:44:47Chestetadont have any virus protection enabled...
00:44:52rasherAh, damn
00:44:57rasherI remember something about cygwin acting strange occasionally when virus protection was enabled
00:45:05Chestetai could try turning all the UAC stuff in windows off...
00:45:26gartralim not sure if this just my DAP or if its documented, but the solitaire game's playback menu is not consistent with the WPS playback options: most notable, it doesnt fade-in/out on pause stop or skip, and it doesnt resume playback if your audio was stopped...
00:45:26Chestetain windows 7 its not as bad (obtrusive) so i still have it on
00:46:05rasherChesteta: I don't know if that's likely to do anything.
00:46:15 Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:46:36Chestetayeah, i figured that... just throwing out ideas
00:47:05Chestetaand the wierdest part is that it compiles correctly the first time I set it up
00:47:16Chestetathis only happens after doing an "svn update"
00:47:29rasherChesteta: try removing ">/dev/null 2>&1" from line 18 apps/codecs/lib/libcodec.make
00:47:37rasherline 17
00:47:38 Quit CaptainKewl ("( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )")
00:48:17rasherseems like ar fails randomly, but many places hide the errors, so we don't know what happened
00:48:27Chestetaoh ic
00:48:35 Join BHSPitMonkey [0] (n=stephen@unaffiliated/bhspitmonkey)
00:49:01rasherI guess we might haave to do this a number of times before we hit an actual error message
00:50:07Chestetaok; as long as you are up for helping me I will do it, I appreciate your help doing this, has anything like this ever happened before that you know of?
00:52:07saratogacygwin may not work correctly on Windows 7 yet
00:52:47saratogahow odd I just deleted a post in New Ports and it didn't go to the trash bin
00:53:00Chestetaoh :/ should I try running compatability mode?
00:53:50 Join lymeca [0] (
00:53:51rasherIt does seem likely that this is a Windows 7 thing
00:53:58 Quit ender` (" I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. -- Jerome K. Jerome")
00:54:41saratogayou should probably just use a VM
00:54:49gartralkeep in mind that win 7 is still not very heavily tested with much of anything, and its very hard to trackdown problems in, AFAIK
00:55:41 Join dfkt [0] (i=dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt)
01:04:34 Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
01:04:51Chestetaok; I am working on getting sharpenvironment going however here is the output from the latest run
01:05:02 Quit ze (Remote closed the connection)
01:05:07 Join ze [0] (i=ze@
01:05:41rasherChesteta: Yeah, probably the same (randomly occuring) error, but in a different codec this time, which also hides the error output
01:06:13rasherLine 18 of apps/codecs/libwavpack/libwavpack.make
01:06:26Chestetashould I remove >/dev/null 2>&1 from all of em?
01:06:36rasherMight as well
01:06:40rasherWhat does ar −−version say?
01:07:41 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:08:24Chestetaalong with some license stuff
01:08:39rasherThat's probably fine
01:09:08rasherBut yeah, try removing >/dev/null 2>&1 from the .make files in apps/codecs/
01:09:09amiconnIf it's a target build, it's the crosscompiling ar that is involved
01:09:25rasherYou do have a point..
01:10:31Chestetaamiconn: are you saying that removing >/dev/null 2>&1 wont help? or did I misread?
01:10:54rasherNo, he's telling me that the output of ar −−version is mostly irrelevant
01:11:03Chestetaoh ok
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01:15:48 Quit Zoxc ()
01:20:18 Quit tessarakt ("Client exiting")
01:23:51 Quit n1s ("Lmnar")
01:31:47Chestetaok; the out.txt is 978 kb so dialup users (anyone?) beware :)
01:34:02rasherChesteta: looks like it completed...
01:35:52Chestetaproperly? so it was the >/dev/null 2>&1 that was messing it up?
01:36:49 Join rocko [0] (
01:37:13rasherChesteta: hard to tell. Try doing it again
01:37:24rasherIt seems unlikely. Maybe you just lucked out this time
01:37:42rasher(do make clean then make V=1 >out.txt 2>&1
01:38:15ChestetaI dont see how code could work one time and then with no changes not work however I will trust you
01:39:12rasherWell, considering it was breaking in different locations, it seems possible that you might just have done a run where none of them broke
01:39:31rasherI guess it's not out of the question that redirection stuff breaks
01:48:44Chestetayou were correct rasher; the output is now 292 k
01:49:09rasherHopefully with an actual error message this time
01:50:14Chestetayea; hey i did run this though: "make clean; make V=1 >out.txt 2>&1"
01:50:25Chestetainstead of 2 seperate commands; is that ok?
01:50:46rasherThat's the same
01:50:51Chestetaok good
01:52:30rasherOkay, that's interesting
01:52:40rasher/opt/arm/bin/arm-elf-ar: unable to rename '/home/Matt/rockbox/build/apps/codecs/libffmpegFLAC.a' reason: Permission denied
01:52:54rasherSounds like Windows getting in the way, somehow
01:53:17Chestetaatleast its a new problem :)
01:53:49Chestetawell I setup cygwin the default way (as described on the rockbox page)
01:54:08Chestetaand it compiles properly the first time I install it
01:54:31rasherYeah, this seems rather weird. Especially as it doesn't happen at the same location everytime
01:55:14rasherI doubt you're doing anything wrong. I'm suspecting Windows 7, but have no real idea how to proceed from here
01:55:43Chestetaoh... I will try and run things using sharpe suggested by gartral
01:55:51rasherAt least you managed to find the actual error message eventually
01:55:57Chestetayeah :)
01:56:14Chestetaor should I try and set the permissions on the cygwin folder maybe?
01:56:45rasherConsidering most compiling works fine already, I'm not sure that'd really help
01:57:07rasherIt seems like Windows just jumps in once in a while and stomps on a rename operation
01:57:12Chestetayea. are you sayin the folder permissions or the sharpe
01:57:24rasherI've no idea what "sharpe" is
01:57:33LloreanIt's a shell replacement, it seems.
01:57:35rasherYou could try running it a few times to see if the error is similar
01:57:36Chestetaits an alternative shell (replacing windows exlorer)
01:57:38LloreanI can't imagine that'd be particularly helpful
01:57:56LloreanIdeally you should figure out why Windows Explorer is the problem, so that we can provide instructions in the future that actually work in Win7
01:57:59amiconnOccasional 'permission denied' is something I observed in cygwin when a virus scanner is active
01:58:20amiconnIt'S been a while since I last saw it though
01:58:21ChestetaI am not running a virus scanner; could windows indexer be messing things up?
01:58:38rasheramiconn: seems logical, considering windows' poor concurrent-access/moving/renaming/deleting handling
01:58:38amiconnI have no idea; winXP here
01:58:45ChestetaI would be glad to help you track down the problem
01:58:46rasherChesteta: It probably could
01:58:57rasherChesteta: Try turning off indexing (completely, or for that dir)
02:00:11 Quit Llorean (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:00:28 Join Hawson [0] (
02:00:31 Join Llorean [0] (
02:00:33Hawson'evening all
02:02:33 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
02:04:30HawsonSo, I've got the 3.1 release installed on a Sansa e280. Works fairly well. I'd like to try out the current SVN release (it seems r20088 is current).
02:04:53LloreanChesteta: What were you told sharpenvironment might do to help your case?
02:05:04Hawsoncan I just unzip the svn release? overwriting the current .rockbox directory.
02:05:18LloreanHawson: We recommend using RBUtil to install it, but yes, it can be done that way as well.
02:05:40HawsonLlorean: I'm actually having some trouble with rbutil (1.0.9, 32bit)
02:05:50Hawsonit gets stuck in a "your config is invalid" loop
02:05:53Chestetagartral said it may help
02:06:16Chestetahe pm'ed me
02:06:48LloreanGenerally speaking, it's better to diagnose the problem *before* guessing at solutions. ;)
02:07:01LloreanHawson: Looping how?
02:07:10HawsonLlorean:'s not cut twice, measure once? ;-)
02:07:24HawsonLlorean: I start rbutil, and get a message...
02:07:31Chestetasaid it may make a difference; "it might, ive heard bad things of explorer build 7002 and cygwin/colinux"
02:08:02Hawson"Your configuration is invalid. This is most liekly tdue to a changed device path. [now starting config diaglog...]"
02:08:23Hawsonthe path for the mounted filesystem is correct.
02:08:35LloreanHawson: Is auto-detect failing?
02:08:38HawsonI click "Ok", the dialog closes.
02:08:50Hawsonand the "Your config is invalid..." window appears again.
02:08:55HawsonLlorean: no. it works.
02:09:01ChestetaI tried talking to him in the PM again however I dont think he is there
02:09:04HawsonSansa E200.
02:09:35LloreanHawson: So if you autodetect, and don't change anything, and close that, it won't install?
02:10:02HawsonLlorean: I don't get that far. I never get the chance to actually start the install
02:10:31Hawsonas soon as I click 'OK', the popup for "your config is invalid" appears again, and re-starts the configuration dialog
02:10:51LloreanWhat OS are you on?
02:11:02 Quit itcheg (" ajax IRC Client")
02:11:04HawsonGentoo, specifically
02:11:14Hawsonalthough I am *not* using the ebuild
02:11:24LloreanAre you running as su or regular user?
02:11:29HawsonI'm using the 32bit binary
02:11:39Hawsonreg. user.
02:11:45LloreanCheck the permissions on your config file
02:12:06LloreanThe original one might have been created belonging to root, since running with su is necessary for the bootloader install.
02:12:11Hawsonyeah, checking that now (started as soon as you asked the question)
02:12:35Hawsonthat looks better
02:12:48Hawsonwell, I'd like to report that a minor bug. :)
02:13:17LloreanThat's not really a bug
02:13:29LloreanIf you run with gksudo or the KDE equivalent at least, I believe you'll be fine.
02:13:33HawsonIt shouldn't loop like that.
02:13:51Hawsonif saving the config file failed, there shoul dbe a message to that effect
02:13:56LloreanAh, yes, it should report in something in that case yes.
02:14:01LloreanPlease report the bug on the tracker then
02:16:12Hawsonneed an account on flyspray to report?
02:16:14 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
02:17:08 Join cool_walking_ [0] (i=cb3b81c3@gateway/web/ajax/
02:18:49Chestetahey the out.txt was 978 kb again
02:19:04Chesteta(same size as when it compiled properly last time)
02:19:57Chestetarasher: should I pastebin it or should I recompile and see if i get the same size again?
02:20:22rasherChesteta: is this with indexing disabled?
02:21:04rashertry pastebinning it, or just the last dozen lines or so of it should be enough
02:21:58Chestetaok well I am using notepad so I cannot tell what line is what line easily; ill just send it all :)
02:24:14scorche|shrocko: no need to use caps like that...
02:24:45rasherChesteta: yeah, that's a succesful build
02:25:00Chestetaill run it again
02:25:05rasherskip the V=1
02:27:19 Quit lymeca (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:32:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:33:14HawsonLlorean: FS #9944
02:34:42Hawsonthanks for the help
02:36:56LloreanThanks for the report
02:42:55Chestetaok guys (and girls :) heres the latest run: i believe it compiled properly
02:44:11LloreanLooks good at a glance, at least
02:45:05rasherYeah, nothing alarming there. I think it's safe to say that indexing was causing the trouble
02:45:31Chestetashould i try and run another time?
02:46:09Chestetaor should i try and do an svn update.. would that put back the >/dev/null 2>&1
02:46:52Chesteta(would it get messed up once the >/dev/null 2>&1 is back?)
02:48:17kadobanChesteta: those should never cause or fix a problem, they simply stop things from being output
02:48:27Chestetaoh ok
02:48:29rasherI think we can assume it'll work from now on. svn update won't put back what you removed, but it won't harm
02:48:47Chestetaalright cool
02:48:47rasheryou can simply delete the files before you svn update, and they'll be put back
02:49:08Chestetai will do that and update again to make sure things will work
02:49:24rasheror svn revert - that should revert any changes
02:50:03Chestetaah true
02:50:42Chestetashould i be using "make clean" from now on or will make suffice?
02:51:12Hawsonassuming the makefile is well made, just 'make' shoudl do
02:51:28kadobanclean shouldn't be necessary
02:51:47rasherIf things break however, try make clean
02:51:48Chestetaok; sometimes it says to run "make reconf" (seems to be sorta often) is there a reason for that?
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02:52:08kadobanChesteta: that's when the makefile itself or the configure scripts are updated
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02:52:50kadobanit doesn't happen too horribly often, but yeah, you should follow its advice in that case :)
02:53:00Chestetaalright will do
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03:14:26Chestetaalright; just reconfirming; everything does work with the indexing service turned off for the cygwin directory in windows 7
03:16:12rasherThis should probably be noted somewhere
03:21:21Chestetathanks for all your help everyone
03:29:25cool_walking_you're welcome
03:29:48 Quit rocko ("Leaving")
03:30:53rasherThere's an issue with copy/paste of files from the main memory to a microsd card - the copy operation never completes if the disk becomes full during the operation
03:32:30 Join jason____ [0] (
03:32:36rasherI expect this might be the case even if you just copy in-place
03:32:58rasherFiled as FS #9945
03:33:01jason____so, are there any plans to support the ipod classic anytime in the future?
03:33:10cool_walking_There are no plans, ever.
03:33:52gartralexcept those too fix serious bugs
03:35:06cool_walking_I don't think there's been much activity on it, but you can see for yourself by looking at the thread in the New Ports forum.
03:43:09saratogais anyone around who can tell me about metadata parsing, metadata.c specifically
03:43:27 Join CapsAdmin [0] (
03:43:50CapsAdminI can't find anything about losing all my songs in the faq. Will I lose everything when installing it?
03:44:04CapsAdminTalking about rockbox
03:44:44CapsAdminok thanks
03:46:47 Quit jason____ ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]")
03:50:09rashergartral: Please don't give (bad) advice in PMs when people come here for help
03:55:53 Join Llor_Phone [0] (n=Llorean@
03:57:22saratogaare there any formats in rockbox that use ID3v1 besides MPA?
03:58:52Llor_PhoneDoes Monkey's Audio?
03:59:12Llor_PhoneI seem to recall something about it and ID3
04:05:10 Join Barahir_ [0] (
04:05:13rasherSurely that uses APE
04:05:33gartralwhats vorbis use?
04:07:24 Quit flyinghippo ("Nettalk6 -")
04:08:05rashersaratoga: I don't think so...
04:08:55 Join blkhawk- [0] (
04:10:12saratogaTTA uses them, so those functions would need to be shared then
04:11:08rasherIs that the one that is almost but not quite opensource?
04:11:32Llor_PhoneThere some gpl code for it too, it seems
04:12:37saratogayeah I found a GPLed decoder
04:13:54saratogaif figure this is a good excuse for me to learn how codecs work, since I need to know about that anyway for some of the changes I want to make
04:14:10saratogathe format is almost absurdly simple anyway
04:14:27 Quit AndyI (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
04:17:17CapsAdminagh, how do I exit plugins and apps, the faq didn't really help me there
04:17:32CapsAdmin without having to shutdown my ipod
04:17:38CapsAdminI have a 30 gb video one
04:17:51 Quit _lifeless (Remote closed the connection)
04:18:01 Join AndyI [0] (i=AndyI@
04:18:06kadobanCapsAdmin: did you read the manual?
04:18:07 Join _lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@
04:18:18CapsAdminI'm reading the faq
04:18:34CapsAdminI'll read the manual
04:18:36kadobani'd recommend the manual instead. the controls for all plugins are in there
04:19:01 Quit Llor_Phone (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
04:19:09kadoban(it's probably menu+select or long select you're looking for though, at a guess)
04:21:28 Quit Barahir (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
04:22:27gartralto be clear, some are just menu, some are menu-menu, and some are menu+select
04:24:58 Quit blkhawk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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04:32:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:26:26 Join NuGay [0] (n=5b13fcaa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
05:26:36NuGaygiid moring
05:26:55NuGaysry, good morning
05:27:20NuGayis this the official RB channel where i can get support?
05:27:51NuGayjust english spoken channel right?
05:28:10cool_walking_There are some guidelines you may wish to read linked in the channel topic.
05:28:11 Quit NuGay (Client Quit)
05:28:35 Join NuGuy [0] (n=5b13fcaa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
05:28:46NuGuyDammit, browser kicked my butt
05:29:17cool_walking_There are some guidelines you may wish to read linked in the channel topic. FYI you can read sentences you missed from the logs:
05:30:29NuGuyi bought a ipod 30gb phew days ago with RB installed and now i´m testing out the gadgets and functions... but i got a phew problems
05:32:07NuGuyI´m looking for a play selection like in the Apple OS which plays just a random song of the whole collection
05:32:27LloreanYou need a playlist of the whole collection to do this. Then just set it on shuffle.
05:32:57NuGuythat would be my second question, how can i create playlists? i pushed "create" and nothing happens...
05:33:13LloreanHave you read the manual?
05:33:13NuGuyi hoped it´s easy as like as sharepod
05:33:35NuGuynot really intensitiv cause i was at work
05:34:26LloreanYou should familiarize yourself with how the functions are supposed to work, and then if you don't understand that, come back with further questioning.
05:34:50NuGuyso i get just the stupid RTFM answer...
05:34:54NuGuyi love that...
05:35:13LloreanWell, if you'd read it, you wouldn't get it...
05:35:38LloreanWe've already "told you how to do it" and now I'm pointing to where we did so, rather than having to retype the manual again.
05:35:43rasherNuGuy: The manual is quite good, and it was written for people to read
05:36:20gartralNuGuy: theres also a party mode in rockbox, and about your RTFM, guess what, we all had too at one point too...
05:37:55NuGuyactually i wanted to ask if there is a tool to create playlists instead using the ipod, someone told me there is a tool to convert itunes playlists... but i understand, i will read the fucking manual... cause everyone had to do it
05:38:05Lloreangartral: Party mode really doesn't have anything to do with what he asked.
05:38:24LloreanNuGuy: They're just M3U playlists. There's dozens, probably hundreds, of PC-side apps to make them
05:39:17 Quit Horschti ("Verlassend")
05:39:56NuGuyi´m going to read the manual.. i´m sick of the arrogant answers everyone gets in irc channels
05:41:22saratogaNuGuy: why so surprised, its the first of the guidelines cool_walking suggested you read
05:41:49saratogaif you'd taken his advice, no one would have had to remind you of anything
05:42:01NuGuywhat advice?
05:42:17saratogaread the guidelines
05:42:43LloreanNuGuy: Personally, I think it's pretty arrogant to come into an IRC channel and ask questions covered in the manual. Whether you intend to or not, the message you deliver is "My time is worth more than yours."
05:43:25NuGuyi didn´t even told you all my question about the tool, and you already talked about " the manual?"
05:43:52LloreanNobody told you to read the manual for the question about the tool, and you know it
05:43:59LloreanYou were told to read the manual for your question about the "create" option.
05:44:49LloreanNobody forbade you from answering future questions, and I specifically even suggested you should ask questions about things not covered in the manual, or things that were covered in the manual that you didn't understand.
05:45:08NuGuyi didn´t asked anything about the create option. i only said i didn´t get it and in the moment i wanted to ask for a nice tool, there came the "Have you read the manual?"
05:45:32LloreanYou said "(10:32:50 PM) NuGuy: that would be my second question, how can i create playlists? i pushed "create" and nothing happens..."
05:45:54NuGuyand thats the point when i wanted to ask the question about the tool
05:45:56LloreanSince this channel is #Rockbox, the obvious assumption is "How do I create playlists in Rockbox?" since M3U is a standard format, and how to create playlists in other programs is off-topic here anyway.
05:46:10NuGuybut i couldnt even answer as fast as you wrote about the manual
05:46:18saratogaNuGuy: maybe you should take a break from the internet while you calm down
05:46:31NuGuywhot? *g
05:47:00saratogagetting angry at Llorean for trying to help you is unlikely to do you much good
05:47:05LloreanNuGuy: So maybe you should actually ask the question you intend to ask, such as "How do I create playlists in other programs for Rockbox?" rather than leaving important bits out of your questions ,then getting upset at people who thought the question you asked was really the question you wanted answered.
05:47:17LloreanI've already actually told you the answer to your other question, without directing you to the manual.
05:47:34LloreanI never even said "RTFM" about asking about other means of creating playlists than in Rockbox.
05:47:39NuGuyblame me cause i can´t really write what i try to tell... my english is not even good..
05:47:53LloreanYou're blaming ME for answering what you wrote, rather than what you had in your head.
05:47:56LloreanI think it's only fair.
05:48:11LloreanI can't read your mind, so I answered the question you asked.
05:48:15saratogaseems reasonable to me
05:48:23NuGuymy english is nasty, so what.... it´s not fair to tell me "read the manual" before i can write my question in a foreign language
05:48:26LloreanIf you asked the wrong question, you should say "Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to ask..." rather than complaining at me for doing so.
05:48:46saratogayes, in fact if you thought your english was suspect, telling people might be a reasonable thing to do
05:49:03saratogasurely no one here could guess from your seemingly fine english that you weren't able to express your ideas to others
05:49:43NuGuyi will leave. treating me like a little child cause my english is not good enough to explain what i mean is not what i´m looking for....
05:49:46LloreanNuGuy: You were told to "read the manual" for the question you already asked.
05:49:58LloreanNobody knew another question was coming, and nobody intended for you to read the manual for questions not answered in it.
05:50:03LloreanWe cannot see the future.
05:50:06saratogaI think people are treating you like a child because you're angry on the internet
05:50:50cool_walking_NuGuy: The problem is that your English is so good that we didn't know you weren't a natural speaker :)
05:50:53NuGuywhy do you think i wrote "..." now that is telling you the sentence is going on
05:51:26LloreanThat's not what that means.
05:51:41NuGuytells who?
05:52:13LloreanThe English language.
05:52:37LloreanNext time, don't hit enter until you've finished your thought. Don't separate a single thought between lines.
05:52:38NuGuyah thats the point, my english is bad like i already said
05:52:42LloreanThis is also covered in our channel guidelines.
05:53:06NuGuyso all people who cant speak english that well do have problems in irc channels ^^
05:53:11LloreanSo the problem is "My English is bad, and you must psychically know this because I won't tell you in advance, and you must not answer any of my questions until I tell you which one is the real question"?
05:53:57LloreanBecause that seems to be the problem here. You asked one question, and I answered it.
05:54:07LloreanFor some *strange* reason you seem to think my answer must also apply to questions you hadn't asked yet.
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05:54:37NuGuy"that would be my second question, how can i create playlists?" i thought, "would" is not the same as "is".
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05:55:18Llorean"would be" certainly doesn't mean "is not"
05:55:31NuGuyi apologise for my shit talking, bad english, breaking guidelines and even to think about expecting normal people in irc chats
05:56:11NuGuyhave a nice morning/day/night and good luck with running this channel
05:57:12LloreanAs I said, a few times: If you want proper help the process is simple 1) Ask the question you want help with. 2) Accept answer. 3) Do not apply answer to questions you have not yet asked.
05:58:04NuGuyprocess.... sounds like using a fkn program or machine
05:58:23NuGuydidnt know we had to talk like machines to get answer
05:59:01LloreanYou just have to recognize that time is linear. This is a causal universe. People will not give you answers to questions you haven't yet asked, so don't take answers and apply them to questions you've yet to say.
05:59:29LloreanNo need to be a machine, but you need to not go crazy when someone actually answers the question you asked.
06:00:09NuGuyi´m not going crazy, i´m just sick of arrogant tellings like "read manual" and so on
06:00:21saratogayou are going kind of crazy
06:00:39saratogai didn't read anything in the last 5 minutes, but theres like a page of stuff from you that makes no sense
06:00:44rasherNuGuy: It was a reasonable answer to the question you asked.
06:00:59NuGuynot even close saragota ^^
06:01:02saratogamaybe you should have taken my advice about not getting angry on the internet
06:01:04LloreanNuGuy: You asked a question that was answered in the manual. How is it "arrogant" to point you in the right direction for what you asked for?
06:01:19LloreanAm I *not* supposed to help you?
06:03:31NuGuyhe, it´s funny. in the most irc channels there are a phew users like that, always in the channel and the only thing they say is like "read the manual" and if somebody got a question which is not answered in the manual they are quiet as a grave *gg
06:03:32gartralNuGuy: not too offend you... buuut, the only arrogent one i see here is you, we're all here to try and help, and too do this, two things have too happen, the first, is that you clearly ask you question... the second, is that one of us needs to know the answer too your question...
06:04:31LloreanNuGuy: I *answered* your question that was not in the manual.
06:05:16NuGuymaybe thats why nobody is looking for help in irc channels for alternative OS like RB or linux aso... ^^
06:06:13zesounds good to me... irc doesn't need any more whiney pricks who can't be bothered to rtfm
06:06:37gartralok, nuguy, we have answered your questions, too the best of our abilities... please don't put us down because you don't understand the answers given....
06:06:45rasherNuGuy: Plenty of people do. And we're glad to help. But we need to know what people are asking for help with. And pointing someone to where the question is answered is helping.
06:07:01Mode"#rockbox +o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
06:07:32NuGuyi will try the ilinux os, maybe i cant chat with other user without a fight about respecting the holy guidelines *g
06:09:22LloreanNuGuy: If you're done asking Rockbox questions, this discussion has gone on long enough. If you want to whine some more, please take it to the Rockbox-community channel, as we've done our best to try to explain to you how you could've received much better help
06:10:34NuGuyi´m not whining, i making jokes cause ur pissed off cause i didnt respect the holy guidelines and show you a lot of respect cause you are the hole support users..
06:10:47NuGuythats all folks, which you a good morning
06:10:50Kick(#Rockbox NuGuy :I said enough.) by Llorean!n=DarkkOne@rockbox/administrator/Llorean
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07:21:53gartralhmm... the solitaire game plugin's audio playback menu seems inconsistent with the rest of rockbox, mainly, if you stop playback from with in solitaire, you can not restart playback with the play/pause option shows "loading..." and disappears after a half second or less without starting playback
07:23:47LloreanCan you resume in other plugins?
07:23:57gartral, it shows*
07:24:04gartralill try, one moment
07:25:23gartralno, same behavior
07:25:38gartralas tested with goban
07:26:04LloreanSo it's consistent among plugins.
07:26:45LloreanIt probably just needs a better splash, then, when playback couldn't be resumed. I don't know why, but there may be a reason for it.
07:27:20gartralno, i can stop in the plugin, but can't resume either
07:27:51LloreanI never said anything about stopping.
07:30:48LloreanThe option is named "Pause/Play" right? It doesn't change to "Resume playback" like it does in the main menu when playback is stopped?
07:31:44gartralalso.. it doesn't follow the fade on stop/pause, but does for next track and previous track options
07:32:22LloreanI'm still trying to understand what your original problem is.
07:32:35LloreanIgnoring fade settings is a clear bug you should file.
07:32:52gartraland the reason i assumed it would start from a stop, is because the "play" button does start from a stop in any menu
07:33:02gartralyes, it called "play/pause"
07:33:21LloreanSo, the complaint is "it doesn't say Resume Playback, and doesn't resume playback"?
07:34:01gartrali didn't even think of looking it that way, but that fits...
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07:34:56kadobanit does the same thing on my device as well. i wonder if the code is attempting to resume or not...
07:35:13gartralok, would the fade on track change/not on pause be a playback, or plugin bug?
07:35:56*gartral searches FS for similar bugs
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07:38:48kadobanit looks like it's supposed to resume, at least there's code there to do it. i'll look into it a bit
07:39:03gartralok, should i still file it?
07:39:39kadobani suck at this code, and even if i find it, i'll post a patch wherever the bug report is
07:41:57gartralputting it under plugins, header: fade on pause/playback in plugins is ignored
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07:46:41gartralfiled as FS #9946
07:47:49gartraland thank you, for such an amazing project
07:49:50lasiusMy songs skip from 10 to 100 instead of to 11 etc. What do I do wrong?
07:50:54gartrallasius: your skip length could be set wrong...
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07:51:57Lloreanlasius: If the filenames go 10, 100, 101, 11 then that's what will happen.
07:52:14LloreanYou may need to name the files 010, 011, 100, 101 to force the order, or create a playlist manually rather than just playing in folder order.
07:54:13*LinusN coughs "natural sorting"
07:54:46LloreanLinusN: Someone just needs to do it...
07:55:02LinusNwhat state is the patch in?
07:55:16LloreanNo clue.
07:55:20kadobanas of a month ago it was working great
07:55:32kadobanhaven't used it at all since
07:56:55gartralnot that i can do anything about it yet, but how hard would it be too add a volume controll too the audio playback menu?
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07:57:20kadobangartral: it's already there :P
07:57:23Lloreangartral: It's in the Jewels one, at least
07:57:28kadobanif you're talking about the one in the plugins
07:57:43LloreanLinusN: Did we ever come up with names that were clearer than "natural" "unnatural"?
07:58:19LloreanAlso, the patch seems to apply to the database sorting as well right now, and it seems possible that ought to work differently
07:58:25gartralkadoban: yes, i was, and Llorean: i didnt see it in jewels, but i wasn't looking very hard, lol
07:59:05LinusNi think we ended up accepting "natural"
08:00:19gartralLlorean: there's no audio playback menu in jewels.rock on my e250, lemme check the sim
08:00:48Lloreangartral: Are you pulling up the context menu from within a game of jewels, and not just looking at the main menu?
08:01:39lasiusLlorean: Actually, the files have names. I was playing it through the database->album. So I guess it was playing based upon track number. Do I have to change the track numbers from 10 to 010 etc?
08:01:47LloreanLinusN: I thought we'd come up with something better.
08:02:08*gartral hands Llorean a printed manual too slap me with "sorry, im a moron"
08:02:26LinusN"natural" seems to be the general term for it
08:02:28kadobani seem to recall someone (llorean maybe?) suggesting what i thought was a good idea, just giving an example list (ex. "1, 02, 3")
08:02:35LloreanLinusN: Either way though, I don't think the database should follow the "Files" sort method (for one thing, why should it use that rather than the Folders one, and for another, when should it use either? In most cases the database has its own sorting rules anyway, and for track numbers it's supposed to ignore preceding zeroes anyway)
08:02:51LinusNi agree
08:03:16gartralhow about "linear" sorting?
08:03:37LinusNi still don't know why we have to invent a new term for it
08:03:41kadobanlinear wouldn't mean much to me in that context
08:03:44LloreanAh, that's right. Instead of "Natural Sorting" "On/Off" we could have "Sort Numbers" "1, 02, 10"/"02, 1, 10"
08:04:12LloreanLinusN: "Natural Sorting" probably isn't a useful term outside of a few languages where it's well known, for one.
08:04:18LloreanA descriptive term translates much better.
08:04:21*gartral would understand the meaning of all three to be translated as "follow tracks by number"
08:04:28LloreanNatural Sorting also only generally means something to people who know what ASCII sorting is
08:04:28kadobani'd vote for that suggestion, or just "natural" (but that seems to depend on language/culture)
08:05:14LinusNi forgot about transation, actually
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08:05:59LloreanThough in all honesty, Natural Sorting should default to "On" so people who don't know what it is don't need to turn it on. But I prefer "descriptions" to "terms" wherever possible so people can work out what options mean from the name / choices if possible.
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08:08:13gartrali would say include the info in the manual, but as nuguy pointed out, not everyone even knows what a manual is
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08:15:44kadobanthe bug with the plugins' audio control menu is apparently really long-standing. it's there over a year ago...
08:16:55gartralfunny that it went unreported so long
08:17:24kadobanit's weird, 'cause i actually use that menu a lot, but i don't think i ever stop music...just pause
08:20:19gartralalso, i feel the the way jewels handles the audio playback menu is inconsistent with the rest, but even so that's minor
08:21:57LloreanWhat's inconsistent about it?
08:23:16gartralthe fact thats its a context menu, the rest are off of the main menu
08:23:46LloreanYou don't really want to force people to quit their game of jewels to access the playback settings, right?
08:24:24gartralwell, no, but like the solitaire game you go back, make your change, and resume the game, like i said, it's minor
08:24:46kadobanif anything it seems like the bigger inconsistency is that jewels uses custom menus with different controls from the audio playback menu
08:24:54LloreanIn jewels the game is saved to disk when you save and exit.
08:25:05LloreanYou'd basically force a spinup every time they wanted to change the volume or whatever.
08:25:56*gartral keeps forgetting about the spinup problem, as he has a flash based target
08:27:06gartraland there's no way the state could temporarily be saved too ram until you actually quit? [side note]
08:28:20LloreanIt could be done, but you still have to go *through* the context menu to save and exit (as opposed to exiting without saving)
08:28:32Lloreanbasically, it's just a formula to make adjusting the volume significantly more hassle for no real gain
08:29:58kadobanas long as the menu is in a place that's easy to get to, it doesn't seem like it needs to be changed regardless
08:30:43gartralok, also, the ability to resume game from the main menu in jewels is slightly misleading, as it seems that you should return to where you were (as in resume game for solitaire)
08:31:07gartralmabey this should be "Resumed saved game"?
08:32:40gartralin fact, i could do that one myself, and submit my first actual patch...
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08:37:52gartralthe question is, would anyone want too see this?
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08:43:01gartralwelll, the edit is done, but would anyone want this?
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08:44:48amiconnLlorean: Windows explorer seems to call it "logical sorting" (based on the registry setting to disable it, which is called NoStrCmpLogical).
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08:56:55gartralFS #9947 is my patch, for those who are intrested
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08:58:22gartralalthough, it's only a patch that adds one word >.> i highly doubt it'll break anything...
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08:59:40*linuxstb doesn't understand how the save game feature works in Jewels and wonders why it is needed at all, rather than just always keeping the state of the last game transparently
09:01:18LinusNlinuxstb: to retry if you fail?
09:01:24LloreanLinusN: You can't
09:01:28LloreanThe save is deleted when you load it.
09:01:39LloreanA new one is created only if you manually choose to "Save and Exit"
09:01:48LloreanIf you exit without saving, on accident, all progress was lost. It's not the best system ever
09:02:14LloreanProbably just a case of implementing the first way to do it that came to mind.
09:02:15kadobanthat seems kind of overdesigned...
09:02:19linuxstbLinusN: But that would be cheating anyway ;)
09:02:49LinusNi believe it should always save the game, and let the user choose to resume when you start it next time
09:03:10kadobanam i correct in thinking that it should just use the normal menus? not much seems gained by using custom ones, and at least on e200 the controls for them aren't the same
09:03:14B4gderZagor: we need to remove a bunch of >/dev/null 2>&1 from the makefiles, at least when V=1 is used...
09:03:44Zagorno objection from me
09:03:52LloreanLinusN: Makes sense. Always save on exits, and have "New" and "Resume" work as normal regarding that save
09:04:05B4gderturned out really hard to track down errors like how we currently do it
09:04:13linuxstbZagor: Also, can you split the "gigabeat" option on Flyspray to "Gigabeat F/X" and "Gigabeat S" ?
09:04:26Zagorlinuxstb: sure
09:04:37Lloreankadoban: The custom ones look nicer, but there's been a gradual trend toward converting custom menus to the standard ones (and hopefully viewports will eventually allow the standard ones to look custom again)
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09:05:31gartralwow, i started all this?
09:06:13linuxstbgartral: I think we're saying that the text is fine, but the functionality is wrong...
09:06:36linuxstbSo please fix the functionality ;)
09:07:13gartralyea, but I'm not *that* good at coding, but i could try
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09:09:29gartralnot that it's THAT important, but under struct the definitions fall under "bjmenu" and too me... BJ means something rather lewd.... may i change this too just "jmenu"?
09:10:45kadobani wouldn't unless it's necessary. extraneous changes tend to get confusing
09:11:55gartralyes, but i cant help bu laugh, also, it points back too the copyrighted "bejewled" game
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09:14:04gartralis it conceivable that others could make this distinction?
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09:26:59B4gderI don't see a point in renaming bjmenu
09:27:28LloreanIt's just asking for a typo or something to be overlooked, with no real practical gain.
09:27:33LloreanIt's one of those "why bother" kinda things.
09:27:35B4gderbejeweled is not a copyright, it's a trademark and I don't consider bjmenu to be even remotely similar
09:28:15B4gderyeah, if someone cleans up something else in there it could possibly be renamed too
09:28:23B4gderbut who cares?
09:28:29gartralmeh, I'm meticulous enough that i would bother >.>
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09:35:12gartralwell... i know the first patch i submitted would work, as there was only one instance of the Resume Game entry under the Jewels title menu
09:35:43gartralthough notepad++ found 3 entries of bjmenu...
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09:38:28linuxstbgartral: So it's only "bjmenu" you object to, not the 100s of other instances of "bj" ?
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09:39:21*gartral didn't bother looking, and does so now
09:42:31gartralok, i believe i wiped em all out, just gotta check the Diff...
09:48:39gartralok, all 387 entries of BJ changed... though, too avoid waisting time and space, im going to leave it till i can compile it tomarro
09:51:20gartraland too avoid confusion, I simply curtailed all entries to "J" (using strict match for bj and BJ)
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10:49:55linuxstbNico_P: Be careful how you answer this question ;) Do you have a windows development environment - i.e. Visual C++ ?
10:50:07Nico_Plinuxstb: no :)
10:50:16linuxstbOK ;)
10:50:48linuxstbWe need someone to work on the Windows version of beastpatcher...
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10:56:41*Nico_P voluteers jhMikeS for the job :)
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11:04:49linuxstbNico_P: Have you used sendfirm.exe ?
11:05:10linuxstbBigBambi tried it last night (and my attempt at a WIndows version of beastpatcher), and neither worked for him.
11:05:14Nico_Pno, I don't even have access to a windows computer
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11:05:38linuxstbOK, let's just drop support for Windows users then...
11:08:00Nico_Pit's unfortunate that none of them seems interested in helping, if there are any of them
11:08:01*gartral is glad he doesn't have a beast
11:18:29gartralbecause they seem more trouble then its wort
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11:45:13linuxstbgartral: No, it's simply that no-one has been working on the installation tools, and the port itself has become far more advanced and stable than the install tools...
11:45:59gartraldoes anyone know the impedance of the "stock" sansa headphones?
11:46:17gartrallinuxstb: ahh
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12:59:17BigBambilinuxstb: I think my attempts failed because the beast wouldn't connect to windows at all, citing driver issues
12:59:37BigBambilinuxstb: In fact, I can try now on my work computer
13:05:46linuxstbBigBambi: OK, thanks.
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13:29:00BigBambilinuxstb: Well, I can't get the beast to connect to windows on this PC either, so no luck
13:29:28*BigBambi has just realised that means he can't get back to Rockbox until this evening - no linux here :(
13:29:44BigBambiI'll try a different one, last go :)
13:31:16linuxstbThis sounds like it's going to be fun to document Windows installation...
13:31:30linuxstb"Run around, trying every Windows PC you can find, until one works..."
13:34:47BigBambinope, no luck there either
13:35:33BigBambiI guess something is wierd with my beast, as it won't connect to Windows at all - if I was starting from this I wouldn't have been able to use it with the OF, let alone install Rockbox
13:37:06*linuxstb looks around for other Beast owners to test">
13:37:40linuxstb(you need the MTP_DLL.dll file from utils/MTP/ in the same directory)
13:38:20linuxstbBigBambi: I can't think how your Beast could be special though...
13:39:31BigBambilinuxstb: Me neither, but with three sperate XP installs it recognises it is a TOSHIBA gigabeat S, then pops up asking for a driver
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13:39:55linuxstbMaybe you need one then?
13:39:59BigBambiThe driver comes with WMP10/11 - two of those PCs have WMP11, one WMP10 and none work
13:40:11BigBambiI've never tried to use it before with windows
13:40:27BigBambilinuxstb: The only way to get the MTP driver is with WMP10/11
13:41:17B4gderis SansaAms or AmsSansa the better wiki name?
13:41:41*B4gder intends to rename SansaV2
13:42:32B4gderI think SansaAms is better
13:43:41linuxstbWhy not SansaAMS ? We have UsingSVN, CustomWPS, ...
13:44:12B4gderah yes that works
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13:46:39*BigBambi gives up and waits for linux tonight
13:46:52linuxstbBigBambi: I've just been googling - the advice seems to be to check "Device Manager" for MTP errors.
13:47:34linuxstbApparently USB hubs can also cause problems...
13:48:08BigBambino hubs here
13:48:54BigBambiAnd it appears in device manager under "Other Peripherals" (or something similar, that's my translation with the yellow error exclamation point
13:49:22gevaertsno hints if you ask for properties?
13:49:55BigBambiJust that it isn't configured correctly, and click here to reinstall the driver
13:50:21BigBambiReally odd
13:50:37BigBambiAnyway, never mind - I'll just use beastpatcher linux tonight :)
13:51:30LloreanHow big should the original NK.bin be on a Gigabeat S? I have a dual boot one, I assume I need to restore it to non-dual-boot before i can test this tooL?
13:51:36linuxstbBigBambi: Maybe the manual will need to say something like "Ensure your Gigabeat is functioning correctly in Windows before attempting this installation."
13:51:51linuxstbLlorean: Ah, do you have your beast and a windows PC nearby? ;)
13:52:04BigBambigevaerts: LinusNnot a bad idea
13:52:06linuxstbLlorean: It's about 12MB
13:52:09BigBambiLlorean: about 12 MB
13:52:22Lloreanlinuxstb: I have my beast, and I'm on Vista.
13:52:31*gevaerts wonders who BigBambi was actually talking to :)
13:52:56BigBambigevaerts: er yes, that went wrong
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13:55:04linuxstbLlorean: But no, you should be able to use it with a dual-boot nk.bin - but it will install a single-boot version.
13:56:06Lloreanlinuxstb: Okay, good, as I don't have a single boot one around right now.
13:56:45linuxstbHave you sucessfully used sendfirm.exe on that PC?
13:56:59LloreanNo, I haven't trie.d
13:57:25linuxstbOK. If beastpatcher fails, it could be useful to try that - I can give you an nk.bin
13:58:10LloreanWhat's the URL of the needed DLL?
13:58:30linuxstbIt's in SVN - utils/MTP/. Would you like me to upload it somewhere?">
14:00:33LloreanWow, Vista won't recognize my Gigabeat S either.
14:00:41LloreanAnd it did on the other PC just fine, but that was 32-bit Vista.
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14:05:29*Llorean apparently cannot test.
14:05:41linuxstbLlorean: The Beast is fighting hard to stay unsupported...
14:06:59*Llorean wonders if it's a 64-bit thing
14:07:09LloreanBigBambi: Were this 32- or 64- machines?
14:07:31linuxstbB4gder: You're going to rename the page just after posting a link to the mailing list? ;)
14:07:39B4gderhaha, yeah
14:07:47B4gderI posted, then started thinking...
14:07:56linuxstbAlways the wrong order...
14:08:02B4gder"how do we gain more clicks" ;-)
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14:16:58linuxstbB4gder: There are a few other pages - SansaV2Firmware SansaV2HardwareMappings
14:17:38B4gderyeah, I'll take them on too soon as well
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14:40:31BigBambiLlorean: 32
14:41:49*Llorean thinks it's odd that we're generally having better luck with a traditionally windows-only protocol in Linux.
14:42:11linuxstbOr simply connecting a Windows branded hardware device with Windows...
14:42:45*linuxstb pings jhMikeS to see if he has any tips
14:46:23LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Has anyone tried building beastpatcher on OS X yet?
14:47:22linuxstbLambdaCalculus37: Not that I know of.
14:48:31linuxstbThe Makefile is partly prepared for it (I copied bits from e200rpatcher), but it's going to need more work. But you'll need to install both libusb and libmtp. built for both architectures.
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14:49:32LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: I already have both installed via Fink. I'll see if it builds later on when I have some free time.
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14:55:57*LambdaCalculus37 wonders if we should put compiled versions of beastpatcher for each OS up on Flyspray for others to test out
14:57:56linuxstbI think it's too early for that.
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15:00:45kugelSo did we agree on natural sorting?
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15:02:43linuxstbkugel: You should know that there is never any agreement on anything...
15:02:56*gevaerts didn't, but he won't complain too loudly
15:03:45linuxstbIs there a "commit-candidate" patch?
15:04:17kugellinuxstb: I just saw the small discussion today, where nobody really complained against natural sorting
15:05:01LloreanPlenty of people complained against natural sorting
15:05:08LloreanAlso, the patch shouldn't touch database sorting.]
15:05:23kugelLlorean: yea, I figured
15:05:35linuxstbLlorean: What's the issue with database sorting?
15:05:53Lloreanlinuxstb: The current version of the patch uses the "Files" setting to affect database sorting somehow, according to the notes.
15:06:47kugellinuxstb: I somehow thought it was wrong there too, no idea why
15:07:07LloreanThe database uses the Track Number tag, as an actual number, for sorting
15:07:07linuxstbThen I guess that option needs moving/renaming. Shouldn't the same sorting algorithm/setting be used in both views?
15:07:10LloreanIt should already be "natural"
15:07:37linuxstbNot if song/album/artist names start with a digit.
15:07:40Lloreanlinuxstb: There's two options. "File" sorting and "Directory" sorting (form the looks of it). If we're going to separate them, there should be a third, "Tag" for database
15:08:00LloreanOtherwise, there should be some logic as to which tags get "File" sorted, and which get "Directory" sorted.
15:08:25*linuxstb quickly shuts this can of worms and goes back to work
15:09:24Lloreankugel: I thought the agreement was that it should have a demonstrative name, rather than a 'term' name. That's what we agreed in the past, too.
15:09:57kugelyou mean the "1 02 10" name thing?
15:10:16Llorean"Natural Sorting" is a term that will only be familiar to people who already know about ascii vs natural. Otherwise they'll have no clue what it means to turn it on/off from the name. It's also difficult to translate, since the term doesn't exist in many languages.
15:10:23kugelright, I forgot about this. But I think it was rather a idea, and waited for someone to do it
15:10:42Llorean"Numeric Sort Order" with options of "1, 02, 10" and "02, 1, 10" translates better, and can be understood by people who don't know the terms
15:11:16Llorean"Numeric Sort Order" or a phrase like it, at least.
15:12:04kugelso what about the seperation of files and directories? this complicates it all
15:13:26kugelOr do you want the "Numeric Sort Order" applied to both at the same time?
15:13:39kugelso why are they seperate?
15:13:48LloreanFor the other options.
15:14:05LloreanThe way numbers are handled should factor into almost all the other sort options
15:14:28LloreanYou leave SORT_ALPHA, SORT_DATE, SORT_DATE_REVERSED, SORT_TYPE, SORT_ALPHA_REVERSED, SORT_TYPE_REVERSED as they are, and simply use the numeric setting to determine what "alphabetical" means when numbers are present at the start
15:14:51kugelI'll look into this
15:15:08LloreanSince, I believe, SORT_TYPE should then sub-sort to alphabetical after it's sorted by type
15:15:19LloreanAnd it natural is on, this will be a different alphabetical than if natural is off
15:16:03*linuxstb wonders why Llorean keeps calling it "natural" if he doesn't think that's a good name...
15:16:17Lloreanlinuxstb: I don't disagree it's the best known term for it.
15:16:43LloreanThe problem is, the big reason for including it is people don't know about the differences in sorting. These are the very same people who wouldn't know the term.
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15:16:58kugellinuxstb: I do it too, just because it seems to be the most common one (even if wrong
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15:18:15LloreanBut I think it would provide the most benefit as a "modifier" to the other sort methods, rather than trying to be one of its own.
15:18:56kugelthis could maybe work
15:19:33linuxstbI just think it's going too far to not use a technical term just because people that don't need to know it, don't know it.
15:20:18LloreanThe people who need to know it, don't know it.
15:20:24LloreanThe people who don't need to know it, do know it.
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15:21:17LloreanAnd, regardless, a demonstrative title and options is much easier to translate and to infer the meaning of.
15:21:50LloreanI really don't get the benefit of naming it "Natural Sorting." The only people who will understand the term are people already familiar with the differences - people who then wouldn't previously have been confused by the sort order.
15:22:11linuxstbNo, I would say the opposite - if the default is "on" (which I think it should be, even though I would probably disable it).
15:22:40LloreanIf the default is on, which it should be, we'll have thousands or tens of thousands of users of 3.2 whose files may suddenly be in a different order.
15:23:17LloreanNatural Sorting - On/Off isn't going to tell them, at all, what to expect when they toggle it.
15:23:58LloreanWhat's *wrong* with naming it "Numeric Sorting" exactly? Why is that worse than "Natural Sorting" in your view?
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15:24:30LloreanAs far as I can see, the only bad thing about it is "it doesn't sound as nice" but it has the benefit of "a large number more people can understand what it does" and "it translates easier"
15:24:36LloreanI'd trade "not sounding as nice" for that...
15:24:41LloreanIs there something specific that's wrong with it?
15:24:52linuxstbBecause it's not the accepted term for it.
15:25:18Unhelpful"numeric" seems descriptive... we could say "library" sort, but we're not also skipping initial articles when sorting
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15:26:13Zagorcan we just paste the last discussion?
15:26:19Lloreanlinuxstb: That's bullshit. It's the most common term, not some sort of official one. Windows calls it "logical sorting" apparently, and even if it were the accepted term that's still just a fancy way of saying "we know what to call it in one language"
15:26:29kugelZagor: :)
15:26:49LloreanNot to mention there's no rule that says we need to use "accepted terms" when there's a *better* option.
15:26:53linuxstbZagor: Or just link me to it...
15:27:00LloreanAnyone who knows "Natural Sorting" can figure out "Numeric Sorting"
15:27:10LloreanSo again: What's the *disadvantage* in an actual "practical use" sense?
15:27:22LloreanWhat do we *lose* by naming it this?
15:28:46Zagorlinuxstb: prepare for a long read :-)
15:29:45Zagorand continued on
15:37:30kugelI'll just go and implement what Llorean said (the modifier thing and as name "1 2 03 10" vs "03 1 10 2")
15:37:57Lloreanno matter what we call it, it should probably be a modifier.
15:38:10LloreanIt makes it more flexible in relation to the other existing sort options.
15:38:27kugelI think most people won't ever change that option anyway (if natural is default), the others can look into the manual
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15:43:44*pixelma wonders how descriptive such a "1 2 03 10" is when you can only hear it...
15:44:09LloreanDepends on whether it says "zero-three" I guess.
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15:47:17kugelhm, well, I thought "1 2 03 10" wouldn't need to be in a lang, as it's not to be translated (imo), but what to do about voice then?
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15:50:45pixelmawhat about "Ignore leading zeros"? I realise though that this discussion has already become a bit tiresome
15:52:09kugelwell, it does a bit more.
15:52:13LloreanBut it's not ignoring leading zeroes. It's not requiring them in the first place.
15:52:25LloreanIn fact, I'd hope it *doesn't* ignore them if they're there intentionally, but that's me.
15:53:14pixelmakugel: for numbers (and characters) there already are VOICE_* strings
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15:54:55pixelmaright, was an a wrong track there for a moment.
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15:55:45gevaertskugel: I'd add it to the lang files anyway in case people change their minds about how it should be named
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16:14:06mcuelenaeregevaerts: any hints how to find out why data from host -> device over mass storage doesn't get transmitted? I don't even see a WRITE command transmitted..
16:16:35gevaertsmcuelenaere: I'd try to see if the previous transfer had issues. otherwise I have no real idea
16:17:13mcuelenaerewhat do you mean with 'the previous transfer'?
16:17:36gevaertsThere must have been something before your expected transfer
16:18:09gevaertsor am I misunderstanding the problem?
16:18:20mcuelenaereI'm probably not explaining it right :)
16:18:41mcuelenaereI'm doing 'sudo dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/sde count=10240' which 'hangs'
16:18:54mcuelenaereif=/dev/sde of=/dev/null works great
16:19:04mcuelenaeredmesg doesn't give me anything useful
16:19:23gevaertsDon't use /dev/random. Use /dev/urandom instead
16:20:33mcuelenaerenice, now it works :)
16:20:46B4gder /dev/random will hang when out of "randomness"
16:20:48mcuelenaerealthough 1.4 MB/s is a bit slow
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16:20:58kugelB4gder: a feature
16:21:09mcuelenaereB4gder: yes I know, but I didn't know which is which (urandom <-> random)
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16:21:47linuxstb"u" is short for "pseudo" - that helps me remember.
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16:22:39mcuelenaeregevaerts: any 'stress tests' available for mass storage on the RAM disk?
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16:24:07gevaertsmcuelenaere: probably. I don't know any off-hand though. You could try the "official" UMS tests from, but I don't know how well they are expected to run on our stack these days, and they're not really stress-tests
16:24:58mcuelenaereanything that'll test USB will do :)
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16:27:10mcuelenaereyeah, I'm downloading USBCV
16:28:20mcuelenaerehmm that did a 'stack switch' and now my USB mouse doesn't work anymore..
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17:13:15midijunkiegot a compiling prob on r20090(target fuze): "no rule to make target '......fuze/debug-target.h', needed by '.....apps/debug_menu.o'
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17:25:39kugelmidijunkie: make clean
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17:31:04rasherThink I nailed the file-paste bug (FS #9945)
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17:36:29*mcuelenaere thinks there's still something wrong with logf over USB
17:36:38mcuelenaerethat or doing cat /dev/ttyUSB0 isn't working
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17:47:00at0mmcuelenaere, i've known people making stresstests with dd, something along the line of dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1024
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17:47:19mcuelenaereat0m: yes, I did something similar
17:47:21at0mswap if and of for read or write
17:47:41mcuelenaerebut then I found this ( ), which is easier :)
17:47:46mcuelenaerea bit off-topic though
17:48:01at0moki glad you found a solution
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17:48:26gevaertsmcuelenaere: vary the bs a bit if you use dd
17:49:51at0mearlier this week i did dd with of=h340 instead of usb stick, which was a real stresstest, for me :]
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17:57:39*mcuelenaere wonders why RB would crash on USB MSC, while the bootloader works fine..
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18:00:33*rasher runs into another oddity with disk-full
18:01:53rasherIf you paste a folder and that operation fails (at least with the patch from FS #9945, it might have just hung previously), it seems the cleanup doesn't quite work
18:03:01rasherAnd you get what looks like an endless tree with that folder containing a folder of the same name, etc
18:03:23rasherMounting the disk in Linux though, it looks like there's just the single folder
18:04:09gevaertsrasher: any relation to FS #9409?
18:05:06rasherI don't *think* so
18:05:37rasherThat sounds more like some sort of FD leak or similar horror
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18:06:25rasherFS #9945 was simply the paste code not properly checking for errors in the write operation
18:06:43rasherWhich caused the paste operation to enter an infinite loop when encountering disk full
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18:07:48rasherDoesn't seem related?
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18:12:44*kugel_ is still trying to understand the boosting bug
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18:27:38linuxstbrasher: I meant to ask, do the language tools do case insensitive matching? i.e. will FS #9948 affect other languages? (I changed all three strings - source, dest and voice).
18:28:28rasherlinuxstb: I don't think it does. You could use tools/ to change the source in other langauges to match the new english.lang
18:29:15linuxstbOK. I'll probably ask you again if it's committed...
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18:31:42rasherIt should probably be done just prior to commit
18:31:53rasherno sense in including it in the patch yet
18:32:02rasherthat'd just be a lot of noise
18:32:21BigBambilinuxstb: you seem to have missed a "Center Frequency"
18:32:31*linuxstb hangs head in shame
18:32:36BigBambii.e. changed the F in frequency but not the Centre
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18:33:41linuxstbI guess they should be fixed now anyway.
18:33:48BigBambibut other than that I'm generally for it (I'm actually less bothered about the title/sentence case than the speeling :))
18:34:29 Quit petur ("work->home")
18:44:51orsonjI have a picture of the Sansa C240 v2 for the wiki, could someone enable my wiki account? (OrsonJones)
18:45:51LambdaCalculus37orsonj: Sure, one moment.
18:45:55linuxstborsonj: Done
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18:46:15rasherlinuxstb wins.
18:46:16LambdaCalculus37Too slow. :P
18:46:36linuxstbrasher: What do I win? Can I commit a patch of my choice?
18:55:06orsonjthanks, that worked.
18:56:01linuxstborsonj: We prefer images to be uploaded to the wiki - so they don't disappear in the future.
18:56:39orsonjsure, is that the attach link at the bottom?
18:56:53orsonjI just saw the other image was hosted externally and followed suit
18:57:09linuxstbAh, that should be uploaded as well then...
18:57:32linuxstbWhen you upload, you can tick both boxes, and then you'll get a nice link in the page that you can copy/paste to where you want it.
18:58:01linuxstbThe "hide file" option prevents it appearing in a table of attachments at the bottom. Although maybe that would be nice to leave...
19:02:24orsonjok, I got mine up properly, I'll go ahead fix the other two also.
19:03:11linuxstbThanks. There's nothing more frustrating than a broken link...
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19:15:32kugel_it seems the metadata is buffered, but not the track
19:16:02kugel_but due to that, it doesn't notice that the buffer is full (it actually only looks for a full buffer at meta data buffering)
19:20:24kugel_well, the bug still seems to be in add_handle()
19:21:43 Quit PaulJam (".")
19:22:14kugel_Nico_P: ping
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19:30:58fmlamiconn: ping
19:31:27fmlpixelma: ping
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19:34:18fmlamiconn: with r18389 you added some fonts. Where did you get the files from? Since font metrics do not seem to be right. Many glyphs go beyond the font ascent/descent.
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19:36:49kugel_fml: ?
19:37:29rasherfml: probably from xorg
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19:38:11fmlkugel_: yes
19:38:54fmlFor 35-Adobe-Helvetica, if we'd change the font size to ~40 everything would be fine
19:39:12kugel_the patch changes it to 48
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19:39:42fmlkugel_: the three fonts I corrected were fine, only one glyph was too big (copy/paste I think). But not the others
19:43:03fmlkugel_: where does it do it? It only suggests to do so. But I think it can't be right since for the normal (not bold) version of the font, 49 is proposed. This is because the correction is made just mechanically.
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19:46:04kugel_fml: oh, seems I got something wrong
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19:49:45amiconnfml: They're all standard X11 fonts
19:51:30fmlamiconn: might be. But the metrics a apparently wrong. Did you get them as ready BDF? Or converted yourself?
19:51:41amiconnGot them as BDF
19:52:03rasherafaik bdf is the source format for these
19:52:03fmlamiconn: very weird. Semms that nobody uses them :-)
19:52:05amiconnSome are from the 75 dpi and some from the 100dpi directory.
19:52:25amiconnI tried all of them, and couldn't find anything unusual
19:52:37rasherfml: maybe nobody uses the metrics?
19:52:48amiconnOf course I didn't try each and every glyph
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19:54:43fmlamiconn: e.g. 35-adobe-bold. Ascent is 28; char 194 (Acircumflex): glyph height is 31 which is > 28
19:55:49fmlamiconn: hence the font ascent should be at least 31, hence the font size should be increased to at least 38 (i.e. +3). All glyphs should be analyzed though.
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19:57:46kugel_fml: I think the other guy said the descent is wrong too
19:58:42fmlkugel_: very possible
20:04:13pixelmafml: can you show how such a wrong character looks?
20:06:18fmlpixelma: I have no screenshot. But it's just that: if the char is displayed with respect to the font metrics, the top of it is cut away.
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20:07:42fmlpixelma: FS #9931 has patches for three fonts which are apparently a copy-paste errors (a char was copied from nimbus14 to nimbus10 and 11). Those 3 patches can be committed now IMO.
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20:08:40fmlpixelma: BTW: are you the master of bitmaps? Could you have a look at FS #9941 ?
20:09:01 Quit webguest31 (Client Quit)
20:09:06fmlpixelma: and while you're at it, also at FS #9939
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20:12:56Nico_Pkugel_: pong
20:13:29fmlpixelma: have you a file/song with an "Ü" (capital U umlaut) in the name/tag? Try it with 35-adobe-bold. Even this char shouldn't be displayed correctly
20:14:31pixelmaI'm a bit occupied with RL work currently... but FS #9939 looks like the opposite to linuxstb's sentence case patch. About FS #9941: I don't have a strong opinion, could be an improvement (except for the "negative" displays of the M:Robe100 or the Clip, I wonder if a new define HAVE_INVERTED_DISPLAY or somesuch would be in order...)
20:15:46pixelmaI didn't look how it is done currently on those, I admit
20:17:46amiconnfml: The fonts are all taken from
20:18:10amiconnThey're just renamed to our font naming scheme
20:18:58kugel_Nico_P: I have this bug here. On a certain playlist (played via <all tracks> in the database), it doesn't stop boosting after buffering is finished
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20:19:30Nico_Pkugel_: I think there's an FS task for it
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20:19:56fmlpixelma: err... I thought all menues are written in Title Case. Other menu entries in the clock use it.
20:20:15fmlamiconn: I'll ook at them
20:20:23kugelNico_P: really? I remember such a task, but I also remember it was fixed
20:20:40kugelNico_P: anyway, I'm trying to track it down
20:21:03kugelit seems there's only 1 point where playback checks for a full buffer, at metadata buffering
20:21:29Nico_Pkugel: there's FS #8999 at least. I tried tracking it down but haven't had enough time so far
20:21:34kugeland in my case, it seems to load the metadata of the 6th track, but it doesn't manage to load other parts of the 6th track (track count remains at 5)
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20:23:16kugelso I assume it doesn't see the full buffer due to the successful metadata buffering
20:24:07kugelthe weird thing is: data_rem actually grows a bit again when the buffer reaches the end (maybe it tries to invalidate the beginning of the 6th track?)
20:24:59fmlamiconn: could you help me? What was e.g. 35-Adobe-Helvetica-Bold?
20:25:24Nico_Pkugel: do you think FS #8999 is the same issue? what you're saying reminds me of what I had found at the time
20:27:48kugelNico_P: well, I don't skip tracks or so
20:28:13kugelI just hit play in the database and go immediately into the view buffering menu, to watch how it keeps boosted
20:29:09amiconnfml: helvB24 from the 100dpi directory. The contents is identical
20:29:10fmlamiconn: I can't find anything with 35 in the name there
20:29:58amiconnOf course not. Our font naming scheme uses the height in pixels when converted with convbdf, not the height in points
20:30:52amiconn(which doesn't tell anything about the actual on-screen size for a bitmap font)
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20:33:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:36:06fmlamiconn: the font seems to have wrong metrics. Weird.
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20:41:47pixelmathat Ü really is cut-off and instead has a part of (probably the following) letter at the bottom
20:41:59pixelmain 35-Adobe-Helvetica
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20:43:06fmlpixelma: yes, I expected that
20:43:40pixelmabut decending (can I say so?) letters - like "p" - take all the space down
20:44:26pixelmadescending even
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20:45:08fmlpixelma: p seems to be OK. Glyphs are allowed to take up the whole space
20:45:50pixelmayes, but then it seems the font isn't "tall" enough
20:45:51kugelNico_P: my actual question is, why does it load the metadata, but not increment track count?
20:46:50Nico_Pkugel: I think audio_finish_load_track() never gets called, does it?
20:46:53fmlpixelma: yes, but p is OK IMHO. Other glyphs are not.
20:47:07kugelNico_P: let me check
20:49:49kugelNico_P: it does
20:50:52kugelNico_P: here's the logf
20:51:21kugelNico_P: whoops, this one
20:51:37pixelmafml: it was just me thinking that then you can't only change the font ascend setting but have to figure out how these geometry definitions have to be
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20:52:21kugelNico_P: interesting, the alt:%s logf comes through, but not the one at the end
20:52:55Nico_PI see one on line 1...
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20:54:00fmlpixelma: sure. Give me a moment
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20:57:35kugelNico_P: yea, but "audio > audio Q_AUDIO_FILL_BUFFER" isn't there, so it return at "if (tracks[track_widx].audio_hid < 0)"
20:58:31fmlpixelma: Uchida was correct: for 35-adobe-bold, descent should be 12, ascent should be 37, and the font size should hence be 49 (instead of 35!) What a large error!
20:59:57fmlFor the not-bold font, he proposes to make ascent=11. But this can't be correct since both fonts should have the same height.
21:00:34Nico_Pkugel: maybe this should set filling to STATE_FULL before returning then
21:00:36kugelNico_P: I think I got it!
21:00:47kugelNico_P: exactly that's what I just did, and it seems to help
21:01:08Nico_Pit should
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21:07:39kugelNico_P: the same should be done when buffering metadata and album art fails, I suppose?
21:08:17Nico_Pprobably, but those could fail for other reasons too
21:09:07kugelNico_P: well, at metadata buffering, it already does that
21:09:21kugelfor album art, toni committed the check today, but didn't set filling
21:09:52bluebrotherLlorean: if you run rbutil as a different user you'll get a different configuration. Thus it's impossible you have a permission issue on the config file
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21:10:06Nico_Pkugel: yes, it should be added to his commit to
21:10:44bluebrotherunless (at least on linux) it isn't run from a proper login shell, but that is a user error
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21:13:01kugelNico_P: I'm inclined to check for ERR_BUFFER_FULL explicitely, and only set filling to STATE_FULL in this case...and leave filling on the other errors.
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21:15:37kugelthis definitely fixes my boosting problem
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21:16:23linuxstbbluebrother: Yes, I think that's the problem. i.e. doing "sudo bash" and then echo $PATH shows /home/dave/... Doing "su" then echo $PATH shows /root
21:16:48linuxstbSo we should ban sudo...
21:16:53*bluebrother sees another reason why he hates sudo
21:16:58*linuxstb too
21:17:16Nico_Pkugel: sounds good to me
21:17:39linuxstbbluebrother: I wonder if it's possible to find out the real user id from an sudo process, and chown the file... It's a pain though.
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21:18:41bluebrothermaybe we can check if rbutil was started with a proper login shell or not by comparing $HOME with the one in /etc/passwd ... *argh*
21:19:17*gevaerts hopes that bluebrother won't parse /etc/passwd as such
21:19:56bluebrotherwell, this attempt is kinda stupid. But how to work around this issue?
21:20:03linuxstbIs this not a problem on windows with "run as administrator"?
21:20:09linuxstbOr OS X...
21:20:35bluebrotherIn fact I don't *want* to work around this −− Qt is really nice in capsulating the configuration stuff, ...
21:20:43gevaertsbluebrother: sudo sets SUDO_USER, SUDO_UID, SUDO_GID and SUDO_COMMAND here
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21:21:37linuxstbBut should we expect people to not use sudo? Even though we hate it, it's commonplace...
21:21:52*gevaerts doesn't like the fact that sudo -i also sets those
21:21:59bluebrotheryeah, that's the bad thing about it
21:22:11gevaertslinuxstb: not *everyone* hates sudo...
21:22:31linuxstbgevaerts: I was talking to bluebrother ;)
21:22:44*gevaerts gets out :)
21:23:44bluebrothergevaerts: me hates it :)
21:24:41kugelNico_P: "Fix two rare bugs which caused playback to not unboost. The filling state was not set properly, if there was no space left for the handle for albumart or audio data. but for the handle for metadata" <- this describes the problem OK?
21:26:08Nico_Pkugel: maybe add a reference to FS #8999
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21:26:27Nico_Pother than that it seems good
21:26:30kugelI'm not sure if it fixes that
21:26:37kugelbut I'll try to reproduce before committing
21:26:45Nico_PI think it should
21:29:03Nico_Phmm in 8999, finish_load_track doesn't get called at all IIRC :(
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21:45:12kugelNico_P: is that easy to reproduce?
21:45:23kugelI can't (with my fix)
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21:46:24Nico_Pnot exactly easy, but it's ok
21:46:46amiconnlinuxstb: Windows' "run as..." does a proper login
21:48:23amiconnlinuxstb: Why would beastpatcher on windows require msvc, btw? Couldn't libmtp use libusb like it does on linx?
21:50:03linuxstbIn theory, but libusb on windows needs drivers installing (which apart from being an extra required step, can interfere with existing drivers).
21:50:52linuxstbI think jhMikeS managed to get the libmtp version of sendfirm working on Windows, but there was a lot of hassle.
21:51:06amiconnWell, we would only need a dummy driver, in case the device doesn't have a driver yet, iiuc
21:51:38amiconnAnd libusb seems to happily coexist with existing drivers, jusdging from my experiments with the ISD300 UDMA tool
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21:52:29kugelNico_P: I could reproduce with SVN (well, the USB test build), but not with my fix applied.
21:53:31linuxstbamiconn: I think we would all be happy someone could make libmtp work happily on Windows - but no-one has managed so far. But I can't remember the exact issues.
21:54:22Nico_Pkugel: nice :)
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22:00:11linuxstbamiconn: There is some discussion here (18:40 onwards) -
22:02:16kugelNico_P: no, my fix doesn't fix 8999 (I couldn't have explained how anyway)
22:03:51kugelNico_P: but it possibly fixes at least the boosting part if 8999 (i.e. I can reproduce the buffering stop, but not the constant boost)
22:04:22Nico_Pwell, it's a start
22:05:02kugelbut that would mean bufopen returns buffer full, even if the buffer is not full
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22:05:22kugelanyway, I'm commiting, and add a reference too 8999
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22:12:51Nico_Pkugel: awesome :)
22:13:32kugelthanks :D This one was driving me crazy since the dataabort bug
22:14:06Nico_Pwas the fix for the data abort committed btw?
22:15:27kugelboth bugs happened on the same playlist for me
22:15:36Nico_PI'm still waiting for feedback on FS #9935
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22:22:40kugelNico_P: I can't help you on that one. That's gevaerts business ;)
22:23:03tessarakthmm, regarding your donations button:
22:23:22tessaraktwould it be possible to provide a Euro zone bank account in addition to Paypal?
22:23:27tessaraktI don't like Paypal ...
22:24:30bertrikorsonj, are you hacking on your c200v2?
22:25:07gevaertstessarakt: I guess you need to ask Zagor about that
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22:35:18JdGordongevaerts: can rockbox do serial over usb as the host?
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22:36:59gevaertsJdGordon: no. (a) we haven't got a host driver at all yet, and (b) most targets don't support host anyway
22:37:28JdGordonis it somethiing which might be possible later on?
22:37:36JdGordonfor those with host support obviously
22:37:42gevaertsSure. It just needs work
22:37:56*gevaerts thinks he should get started on host support
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22:38:16JdGordonis it difficult?
22:39:18linuxstbgevaerts: Which targets can do host?
22:39:27gevaertsDepends. It's probably a lot easier for someone who is familiar with USB. Most targets that have host seem to have OHCI, which is well documented, so that part should be easy
22:40:05 Quit balug_ ("Ex-Chat")
22:41:49gevaertslinuxstb: euro H300 and gigabeat F definitely (OHCI), x5 (maybe other iaudios as well?) have host but we don't know what sort (I wouldn't be surprised if it was also OHCI), beast (EHCI), portalplayer (EHCI, but I don't think any supported PP target has the necessary pins connected)
22:42:33gevaertsPossibly the meizus as well (same issue with the pins, and I'm not sure if they do OHCI, EHCI, or something else)
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22:45:18Chestetahey wondering if anyone around here is/has been working on the as3525; i have an e280v2 and some freetime... if anyone could help guide me to debugging mp3 playback causing a reboot let me know
22:45:57kugelChesteta: I think getting logf working might get you somewhere
22:46:12*bluebrother now has a sudo workaround but kinda dislikes that
22:46:33Chestetaok; i dont know much if anything about programming however would be glad to help with the debugging process
22:46:56Chestetahopefully i would/will learn from the experience was the idea
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22:47:39Chestetabluebrother: the sudo workaround works or sorta works? :)
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22:47:52linuxstbbluebrother: What have you done?
22:48:43bluebrotherlinuxstb: checking if getuid() == 0 and SUDO_UID is set. If yes chown the settings file (fortunately Qt provides a method to retrieve the full filename) to the value present in SUDO_UID
22:50:21 Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
22:50:31Chestetabluebrother: are you talking about the as3525 or something else [before i joined irc]?
22:50:40bluebrotherthough I kinda dislike to chown some file ... how can I ensure the user didn't set SUDO_UID to some arbitrary value? Ok, I'm checking for uid 0 first ...
22:50:53gevaertsI think that's reasonable. The only case I can see it "fail" with is people using sudo -i. Then $HOME is /root, and you're chowning a file there. I don't think it's important though as (a) that user has root access anyway, and (b) root can read and write the file anyway
22:50:57bluebrotherChesteta: I wasn't talking about any AMS chip
22:51:21BagderChesteta: debugging is finding flaws and fixing the code. You can by definition not debug without knowing code and programming
22:51:52gevaertsbluebrother: exactly. If people have root access, they either have a root shell and if they fiddle with SUDO_UID they can't do more damage than they already could, and if they only have rbutil rights they can't fiddle with SUDO_UID
22:52:05Chestetayea i hear ya; was just hoping to contribute some :)
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22:54:59gevaertsbluebrother: what will you do about su -c rbutil?
22:55:49bluebrothergevaerts: no idea ... I'm even not fully understanding what -c means from reading the man page :/
22:56:06gevaertsbluebrother: try "su -c set" to see the effect
22:56:37gevaertsIt has exactly the same issues as sudo, except you don't get a nice SUDO_UID to help you detect it
22:57:07gevaertshm, no...
22:57:09*gevaerts lied
22:57:17 Quit jaykay ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]")
22:57:34gevaertsForget what I said. It resets HOME to /root
22:58:58bluebrotherinteresting. The man page describes sudo -c but my copy of sudo doesn't seem to support that.
22:59:21 Quit {phoenix} (Remote closed the connection)
22:59:33gevaertshm, not here
23:01:07gevaertsbluebrother: you could also just document the issues and tell people to run "sudo -H rbutilqt", then if they don't it's their own fault
23:01:44orsonjbertrik: I have managed to take apart both my c250v1 and my c240v2. I put rockbox on the c250v1, but it has issues with linux, (filesystem corruption whenever I put something on it using linux)
23:02:04bluebrothergevaerts: I bet this (telling) won't work. Especially when I think of all those "I clicked it" guys.
23:02:28orsonjI think the board on the c250 is cracked as the headphone jack only works when I put pressure on the side.
23:03:02bertrikorsonj, one experiment you can help with is to see if you can get the radio chip working on the v2 (or ams) version of the c200
23:03:54bertrikorsonj, with some luck it's only a bad solder connection that you can possibly fix, a cracked board is nearly impossible to repair I think
23:04:02orsonjsure, I can test firmware on it for you.
23:04:13 Quit Barahir_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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23:04:50NJoinChanServ [0] (ChanServ@services.)
23:04:50Mode"#rockbox +o ChanServ " by
23:04:52orsonjIt was a refurb for $15, so no biggie, but I might be able to jump the crack as it is only on the corner of the board and everything else works as far as I know.
23:04:54 Quit Lear ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b3pre/20090222035035]")
23:05:12gevaertsbluebrother: true. You could of course just use getpwnam() to look up the real home directory, but if you do that you'll people who know about all this and set $HOME carefully. Those tend to come with torches and pitchforks :)
23:05:34bertrikorsonj, are you set up to compile rockbox from source? and did you already try to install the bootloader?
23:06:20 Quit maddler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:06:40orsonjthe c240 was a $11 refurb, I tried to install the v1 load until I thought to check to see if it was a v2. Last thing I did was reformat it using its buildin format tool.
23:06:44bluebrothergevaerts: while I don't like the solution I start to become slightly in favor of the chmod solution :/
23:06:52orsonjso, factory condition to be short
23:07:19orsonjI don't have any rockbox source/compilers setup
23:07:20gevaertsbluebrother: I think it's the only one that won't break the expectations of advanced users without breaking things for newbies
23:07:58bluebrotherseems pretty much like this
23:08:25*gevaerts hates software that distrusts $HOME and makes sure by calling getpwnam()
23:08:54bluebrotherwell, I've done some small changes to the verify-configuration-thing so there are a few changes coming up. Too bad FS #9944 isn't clear enough to name the exact issue.
23:12:18bertrikorsonj, having the compilers makes it a lot easier to hack, but requires quite a bit of time on your side to set up
23:12:26 Quit flydutch ("/* empty */")
23:13:04bertrikuh oh, now we can't say compiler anymore... ?
23:13:05orsonjI don't mind setting up the compilers, I'm on Ubuntu. Reading the dev guide on the wiki right now.
23:13:19kugelNico_P: Wouldn't it be more logical to set the watermark when buffering is finished, instead of after every track?
23:14:31 Quit MethoS- (No route to host)
23:14:41*bluebrother hates unclear tracker tasks
23:15:52 Quit JdGordon (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:16:27jhMikeSlinuxstb: I can provide all code with changes but that still doesn't remove the hassle of libUSB driver install and removal.
23:17:45linuxstbReading the logs, you said you needed to remove the driver for Windows MTP to work?
23:19:00jhMikeSyes, installing libUSB for libMTP turns the beast into a libUSB device but this is needed for sendfirm to work. After that if you want Windows MTP back, you have to remove the driver while the beast is plugged and it will redetect it again as a normal MTP device.
23:19:44 Join Zagor [242] (
23:19:50bluebrotherlinuxstb: I have access to VS2005 (though no beast) in case that is helpful
23:20:15jhMikeSin any case it's an awful experience that I don't need to go through unless I trash the firmware partition, mess up the bootloader or whatever.
23:20:27 Quit faemir (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:20:49linuxstbjhMikeS: Have you tried the Windows sendfirm?
23:20:50jhMikeSisn't the free VS download still available? I have that one and downloaded it recently.
23:21:10jhMikeSlinuxstb: It failed so I used mine again. Did I need something else installed?
23:21:18kugelZagor: ping
23:21:32bluebrotheryou can get VS Express for free. I don't think that changed but you need to get the platform SDK separately
23:21:35*linuxstb wonders if anyone has succeeded with the Windows sendfirm, or if it's a myth...
23:21:50 Join faemir [0] (
23:21:56kugelWouldn't it be more logical to set the watermark when buffering is finished, instead of after every track?
23:22:16linuxstbbluebrother: It's more that we need someone willing to use vs2005 and do a little Windows development...
23:22:22jhMikeSbluebrother: yeah, I went and downloaded that too. it wasn't really a problem.
23:22:26Zagorkugel: absolutely
23:22:41kugelMy last commit made filling to indicate end of buffering reliable, so I think it can be moved into there too
23:22:55linuxstbjhMikeS: Do you have Windows and your beast nearby?
23:23:02linuxstb(a dual-booting beast...)
23:23:05kugelalso, how about showing the watermark in the buffering debug screen?
23:23:47jhMikeSIt's not dual boot but I could make it so
23:23:56Zagorkugel: I remember looking into it before, and finding there were several conditions that could trigger end-of-buffering. that's why I didn't change that.
23:23:58linuxstbjhMikeS: Can you try out my windows build of "beastpatcher" ? Although if sendfirm didn't work, this probably won't...
23:24:00bluebrotherlinuxstb: I'm not afraid of using vs2005 but the w32api is a bitch, at least as far as I used it for rbutil development
23:24:24bluebrotherthough one _can_ get used to it. Some things are still simply stupid
23:24:28Zagoradding it to debug screen is fine, but that screen is already larger than some displays can show
23:24:33kugelZagor: as long as they set filling to something other that STATE_FILLING, we're fine
23:24:46*bluebrother hands kugel a small LCD
23:24:49linuxstbjhMikeS:"> - you need the MTP_DLL.dll file from utils/MTP/
23:25:01jhMikeSlinuxstb: I'll report the errors it gave (a big dialogue with some strange numbers)
23:25:10kugelwell, I know it's too big for small screens
23:25:11Zagorkugel: ok, that sounds good then
23:25:37kugelbut how does that make it improssible to show more info? It just lacks scrolling, I suppose
23:26:13Zagorit's not impossible. it just won't show on clip, for example
23:26:23 Quit faemir (Client Quit)
23:26:23*jhMikeS just gets a DNS error :\
23:26:36 Part Anges
23:27:18*Bagder did another sansav2 => sansa ams raid in the wiki
23:28:19kugelZagor: maybe we can turn it into a list (at least the non-bar stuff)
23:28:26jhMikeSit's ok now. I wonder what happened. ??
23:29:10 Join faemir [0] (
23:30:04 Join webguestington [0] (n=424c70e3@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
23:30:16Zagorkugel: good idea. I think the thread screen is a list already.
23:30:23jhMikeSlinuxstb: It merges nk.bin with bootloader.bin or I still have to use mknkboot?
23:30:43webguestington ... howdy
23:31:10webguestington (quick question whenever anyone gets a moment.)
23:31:19Bagderwebguestington: just ask
23:31:41webguestingtonk thx. How do I delete my entire database?
23:31:43 Quit ChanServ (
23:32:03webguestingtoni know it's dumb. please don't make fun of me :)
23:32:38gevaertswebguestington: remove all .tcd files from .rockbox/
23:32:53NJoinChanServ [0] (ChanServ@services.)
23:32:53Mode"#rockbox +o ChanServ " by
23:33:04webguestingtonwill i need to reinstall after?
23:33:19tessaraktis there something wrong with the forum=
23:33:20gevaertsno. That just deletes the database
23:33:30webguestingtonok. appreciation much.
23:33:40Zagortessarakt: looks fine to me
23:33:40Bagdertessarakt: no...
23:33:42kadobantessarakt: it appears to be working fine here
23:34:06tessaraktI saw a post there complaining about posts missing after 2/20
23:34:13tessaraktand then I reloaded, and that post was gone
23:34:25bluebrothermaybe that post was deleted?
23:34:28 Quit webguestington (Client Quit)
23:34:48tessaraktthen I replied that indeed post seem to go missing
23:34:55kugelwhats "audio_set_buffer_margin()"
23:34:58tessaraktand then that was deleted, too
23:35:02gevaertstessarakt: there's this magic fairie going around that deletes all off-topic posts
23:35:22tessaraktI think there was some on-topic stuff over the weekend
23:35:27kugelthe only other caller of set_filebuf_watermark
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23:37:19Zagorkugel: that's the "anti-skip buffer". i.e. how many seconds extra watermark to use.
23:37:47kugelah, I see
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23:39:36kugelZagor: shouldn't that be added to the watermark?
23:39:39kugelit doesn't seem to be
23:40:09Zagoryeah I just saw that too
23:40:17kugelin fact, it looks broken to me
23:40:35kugelnobody noticed, let's get rid of it :P
23:40:36Zagorthe values are a bit strange. there should be a 0 first.
23:40:51Zagorand 600 seconds anti-skip is ... a lot
23:44:53*jhMikeS does't undstand why AMS datasheet say "confidential" even if they're online :\
23:47:22 Quit intrados (Success)
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23:49:16jhMikeSlinuxstb: I've gotta reboot this machine before continuing. It's in a sad state.
23:49:24 Quit intrados (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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23:50:50amiconnZagor: The anti-skip buffer values *should* start at 0, but the swcodec ones started with a wrong interpretation of anti-skip, and never got fixed
23:50:57saratogai was hoping they'd put the 353x ams datasheets online but no
23:51:02saratogajust the ones we already have
23:51:45saratogajhMikeS: I've had the v12 datasheet for a while, theres nothing much interesting changed
23:51:58 Quit Chesteta (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:52:03saratogait turned up on google over the fall
23:52:26jhMikeSsaratoga: Just error fixes? Also, you never asked them about the 353x ones?
23:53:02jhMikeSsaratoga: from them or someone else just dumped out there?
23:53:05 Quit intrados (Connection reset by peer)
23:53:25saratogajhMikeS: I found it googling for AMS
23:53:47saratogai never asked them about the 353x series, though i'm pretty sure they're in the rev2 AMS players
23:53:50 Quit gregzx ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]")
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23:54:51 Quit jhMikeS ("rebuut")
23:56:01bertriksaratoga, why do you think so?
23:56:13saratogathey use ARMv5 chips from AMS
23:56:17saratogaand those are the only ones
23:56:38kugelamiconn: the anti-skip seems to be broken anyway
23:57:21 Join faemir [0] (
23:57:46 Quit BigBambi ("No Ping reply in 30 seconds.")
23:58:57saratogathough AMS does claim 1/3 the power for the 353x series as the 252x, and the difference is smaller for the rev2 players so who knows

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