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#rockbox log for 2009-03-01

00:05:59 Join SirFunk_ [0] (n=Sir@208-15-25-145.netsync.net)
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00:35:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:15:23perrikwplinuxstb: ping
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02:18:42perrikwpAnyone here experts on the Gigabeat S install?
02:19:47BigBambiWhat's the issue?
02:21:01perrikwpI used the Windows beastpatcher and it works, except when I shutdown and start it back up it doesn't work
02:21:17BigBambimore info please
02:22:24 Join Llorean [0] (n=DarkkOne@ppp-70-243-32-116.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)
02:24:20perrikwpthe rockbox bootloader is installed and rockbox boots after the beastpatcher quits, but after turning the Gigabeat off and turning it back on it asks to restore or update the firmware
02:24:43BigBambisingle or dual-boot bootloader?
02:24:54perrikwpsingle bootloader
02:25:59BigBambiWhen was the bootloader built?
02:28:49perrikwpI just used the windows beastpatcher provided by linuxstb, I don't know when the bootloader inside it was built
02:29:23 Join Beta2K [0] (i=1000@d36-124-26.home1.cgocable.net)
02:29:29BigBambiI'm wondering if the on-the-fly partition fixing is upsetting the OF
02:29:45perrikwpmaybe I should try sendfirm instead?
02:30:01LloreanBigBambi: Wouldn't it upset the OF independent of bootloader version? It's in the main build too, right?
02:30:18gevaertsHow could it?
02:30:26LloreanI can't imagine how it would
02:30:32LloreanUnless it failed to restore it, possibly
02:30:40LloreanWell, it's never written though, ignore that
02:30:45BigBambiMe neither, I'm just speculating
02:31:10BigBambiperrikwp: There is a older single bootloader (nk.bin) on the wiki that you can install with sendfirm and see if there is any difference
02:31:55BigBambiLlorean, gevaerts: I'm not blaming that at all - I just haven't seen this issue before and there have been some recent bootloader changes
02:32:56perrikwpok, i'll try it, give me a sec to test it
02:33:00BigBambiStill, as you say, unless something changes the disk/partitioning/etc., the OF shouldn't care
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02:35:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:07:34 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
03:08:03Unhelpfulthere's a theory that newer beast flash does not like the single-boot bootloader.
03:13:03perrikwpok I tried the older bootloader and sendfirm from the wiki and I have the same problem
03:13:21 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection)
03:13:45perrikwpso I should try making a dual-boot bootloader to see if that fixes the problem?
03:16:39Unhelpfulperrikwp: it's solved *some* users' troubles with forced restores
03:18:33 Quit Xerion (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
03:19:27jhMikeSUnhelpful: Am I to understand now that some beasts force restore no matter single or dual? I haven't heard of this suggested until now.
03:20:25UnhelpfuljhMikeS: no, the some is due to the fact that i never heard again from some of the problem cases that they had solved it, or how. dual may very well have worked for them.
03:28:07perrikwpok I'm going to make a dual bootloader and see what happens
03:29:56jhMikeSUnhelpful: I guess I'll make a patch with a large word fill to create a big bootloader and ask someone to test to see if that makes any difference.
03:30:33 Quit miepchen^schlaf ()
03:31:56Unhelpfulis there a checksum that has to be correct, so that we can't just pad the "normal" bootloader binary with zeroes?
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03:34:00jhMikeSIf we _have_ to, I suppose those fields would need an update from the beastpatcher. I wouldn't fill by default. I don't want to get ahead of myself but I don't know where else to start.
03:39:13Unhelpfulso, *if* that works, beastpatcher would take an unpadded bootloader, and for "single-boot" installs, modify the checksum header fields as needed and pad the end with NULLs?
03:44:15jhMikeSI think. The bootloader is in that funky wince format that I'm not too familiar with. Of course I hope it's really that simple (maybe it wants something fancy).
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03:55:10steve6446hi
03:56:31Unhelpfuli can imagine that some format oddities might lead to trouble if the padding is not part of a defined section.... best test is to try it, i've been meaning to flash my beast up to 1.2 and play around with it, maybe tomorrow night.
03:56:42steve6446i have a gigabeat f60 i just installed rockbox on it with the rockbox utility and my gigabeat keeps loading the original firmware is there a way to force it to load rockbox?
03:57:36scorche|shif it keeps loading the original firmware, then the installation is not complete
03:58:34steve6446it says its completed
04:00
04:03:05jhMikeSUnhelpful: I'm filling using the .lds so that shouldn't be a problem here
04:05:26perrikwphow do I use mknkboot?
04:05:30jhMikeSThis will zero fill the bl to be about 12MB (like OF): jhmikes.cleansoap.org/gigabeat-s-padded-bootloader.patch">http://jhmikes.cleansoap.org/gigabeat-s-padded-bootloader.patch
04:06:20jhMikeSIf that works, I guess a binsearch would find a minimum size.
04:07:51saratogaperrikwp: theres instructions on the wiki
04:08:01saratogaoh sorry wrong program, never mind
04:09:02 Join moos [0] (i=Mustapha@rockbox/staff/moos)
04:09:09perrikwpnevermind I found the instructions, thanks
04:10:15UnhelpfuljhMikeS: thanks for the link, i'll try to get to it tomorrow
04:12:05 Join blkhawk- [0] (n=blkhawk@f051043109.adsl.alicedsl.de)
04:12:05jhMikeSIf I'm feeling less lazy, I'll try to see if that rom can't be dumped to find out _exactly_ what make it pass.
04:12:32Unhelpfulit would be nice if we could get rb bootloader in ROM ;)
04:12:40saratogacan the ROM be patched easily?
04:12:46saratogaor is it complicated like on the F
04:13:07jhMikeSI really can't say at this point. I've not looked at that aspect yet.
04:13:45jhMikeSI'd love to have it as FAT32 all the way and no retailos at all...that would be nice.
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04:22:40saratogaor even just patch the OF bootloader to not touch the disk
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04:27:49soapanyone, saratoga in particular, did I really insult R.L. Horn on the user mailing list or not?
04:27:55soapInsulting was not my intent.
04:28:41soapI thought I went to great lengths to stress my uncertainty as to what was going on and that I was probing for more info.
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04:29:08gartralalright, i'm having a severe case of Stupid-User-Syndrome... i cant get rbutil to install rockbox from my ubuntu machine...
04:29:23jhMikeSsaratoga: what was the complication of the F? IRAM works fine on the S. I recall the IRAM problem there making things difficult.
04:29:35krazykitgartral, on what player? some need root
04:30:59saratogajhMikeS: its been possible to patch the F's firmware for a year or two now I think
04:31:14saratogai think its just considered risky since you erase it and then write a new one
04:31:56saratogasoap: no I don't think you did
04:32:09saratogaI read his exchange yesterday and honestly had no idea what the hell he was talking about
04:33:16gartralkrazykit: e250 v1
04:33:31krazykitgartral, that's one of the ones that needs root permissions
04:34:00gartraloh... now i feel really dumb :\
04:35:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:36:56perrikwpUnhelpful: the dual-boot bootloader works, the Gigabeat S flash must not like the single bootloader
04:37:40saratogaperhaps the null padding idea will help with the single bootloader then
04:38:15perrikwpi'll try out that patch tomorrow to see if it helps
04:38:22perrikwpthanks for everyones help
04:38:47gartralkrazykit: umm, it does NOT need root, the file needed to be labeled as an executable...
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04:41:55jhMikeShopefully it won't need much padding or else it won't be much help anyway
04:43:17jhMikeSUnhelpful: this has info about the CE format http://www.xs4all.nl/~itsme/projects/xda/wince-flashfile-formats.html
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05:20:42Nate3000Hello all.
05:21:44Nate3000Is there a way on Mac OSX to keep iTunes from starting automatically? It's making it impossible to do anything to my iPod..
05:23:47saratogaNate3000: I'm sure there is, but you'll probably have more luck on an Apple channel
05:24:44saratogais anyone around here familar with the codec interface?
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08:27:59 Join Rabbit^^ [0] (n=Rabbit^^@72-24-220-205.cpe.cableone.net)
08:29:30Rabbit^^I have a Sansa View (16GB) and rockbox does not appear to install on it. Have the people at Rockbox fixed this issue yet to anyone's knowledge?
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11:50:28casainhohello :-)
11:51:04casainhocan someone explain me what means pcm_play_dma_get_peak_buffer() on audio target drivers? what is the intention?
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12:02:09casainholinuxstb: are you there?
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12:16:13SmokeDogherr0
12:16:15SmokeDoganyone around?
12:16:32SmokeDogi have a real question that wasn't in the faq
12:16:36SmokeDogreal quicks
12:18:51SmokeDogok i'll just shoot anyways and idle here for a bit and hope someone will message me
12:19:59SmokeDogso umm.... loading rockbox on it puts a second "os" on an ipod at that point by flashing the firmware will you loose the tracks you have on there already or will it make a seperate bootable folder and run for there instead while still keeping the tracks you have on said ipod or do you have to reload all the songs on there after said install?
12:20:35n1sno you won't lose you're tracks
12:20:46n1salthough a backup is always a good idea
12:20:58n1ss/you're/your
12:23:36SmokeDogthank you
12:24:18SmokeDogmy buddy was whinning like a girl about it
12:34:57SmokeDogso my boy just tried downloading the install files
12:35:12SmokeDog(3:33:28 AM) ThaSkaMan1: http://build.rockbox.org/dist/build-ipodvideo/rockbox.zip
12:35:12SmokeDog(3:33:31 AM) ThaSkaMan1: fail
12:35:12SmokeDog(3:34:31 AM) ThaSkaMan1: http://download.rockbox.org/release/3.1/rockbox-ipodvideo-3.1.zip
12:35:12DBUGSent KICK SmokeDog to server
12:35:12SmokeDog(3:34:35 AM) ThaSkaMan1: both are a fail
12:35:12SmokeDog(3:34:40 AM) ThaSkaMan1: no installs
12:35:13Kick(#rockbox SmokeDog :No flooding!) by logbot!n=bjst@rockbox/bot/logbot
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12:36:03krazykitSmokeDog, please don't spam a bunch of lines like that. the problem must be on his end, as both links work for me
12:36:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:36:12SmokeDogim sorry
12:36:34SmokeDogit's late
12:37:14SmokeDogu been here long krazykit ur nick looks familiar
12:42:59 Join jaykay [0] (n=chatzill@p579E6BC1.dip.t-dialin.net)
12:43:55SmokeDognot a bunch of talkers i see
12:43:59SmokeDog....
12:44:48krazykitIRC doesn't mean Instant Reply Chat. It's still quite early in the US and many of the Europeans are still at work, so please have patience. in the meantime, you should take a look at the channel guidelines
12:53:05SmokeDogBoosh! well way to take the fun out of it all kit
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12:54:10linuxstbSmokeDog: If you want to chat, there is #rockbox-community - we try to keep this channel on-topic and relatively serious (it's logged).
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12:55:36SmokeDogthank you for helping me out earlier my question was answered
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12:58:14PaulJamis there a special reason why there is no resume support for ALAC? seeking seems to work fine.
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12:58:52casainholinuxstb: can you explain me what means pcm_play_dma_get_peak_buffer() on audio target drivers? what is the intention?
13:00
13:00:22PaulJambtw, i noticed that for AAC and ALAC the WPS always shows them as cbr even though i'm almost sure they are vbr.
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13:11:51linuxstbPaulJam: ALAC is definitely always VBR. I would expect CBR AAC to exist though. But yes, it does sound like a bug.
13:12:06linuxstbcasainho: No.
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13:29:44robin0800Sansa C240 won't connect in ubuntu alpha5 sys log sayes http://paste.ubuntu.com/124707/ rockbox or alpha5 bug?
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15:05:38Alex00088can I put comments into my .cfg files, by simply appending a "#" symbol to a line? If not - is there a way to add comments?
15:05:51Alex00088*prepend
15:06:56LloreanYou could've tested in about as long as it took you to ask. ;)
15:07:35Alex00088ok. thanks!
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15:55:27funmanhello
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15:59:04funmani'm glad to see some progress on sansav2 , i want to help on >2GB models
16:00
16:00:25funmanon the web i can find a 4GB Fuze at 95€, delivered
16:00:54funmanoffers for the clip seem to stop at 2GB (so, not interesting since the whole 2GB are accessible)
16:01:34funmani can find 4GB but only in the US, and I expect more important shipping price
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16:02:36funmanIIRC lambdacalculus has bought a bunch of clips, is he the one?
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16:03:02moosfunman: salut, maybe see with Zagor/Bagder and the rockbox's fund it could help you....
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16:04:06funmanmoos: merci, perhaps i'm not coming at the right time, but it's difficult here :/ I think I'll use good old email
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16:10:47kugelfunman: hi
16:12:47funmankugel: hi! nice work on v2 ;
16:12:49funman;)
16:13:40bluebrotherfunman: have you checked amazon? I've seen a Fuze 8G at 70EUR
16:13:45kugelfunman: actually, I'm more concerned about the dcache and mmu, not so about the >2GB problem
16:14:28kugelour ams sansas are utterly slow, because those aren't active
16:15:08funmanbluebrother: i only found v2 on amazon in $ (i used google)
16:15:42bluebrotherI looked at amazon directly −− http://www.amazon.fr/Sandisk-Lecteur-audio-video-microSD/dp/B0019JOD68/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1235920365&sr=8-1
16:16:27funmanbluebrother: hm nice ..
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16:17:31funmankugel: see system_init() : icache and dcache should be active
16:17:51funmanand mmu inactive, but i think we don't need memory management?
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16:18:10kugelfunman: the mmu is inactive. And thus the dcache is inactive
16:19:27funmanoh
16:19:43funmanlook at the arm922 technical manual for the cp15 registers
16:19:56funmansee you
16:19:57kugelI did
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16:30:16Rabbit^^Does anyone know if Rockbox works on Sansa View? I am also running Windows Vista.
16:30:49bluebrotherRockbox runs on the players listed on the frontpage. That list does not include the view
16:31:40bluebrotherThere's even a "Status" link
16:32:20Rabbit^^Does anyone know of ANY FREE software that would enable bookmarking of MP3 files on the View?
16:36:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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16:55:51linuxstbRabbit^^: You can't just "enable bookmarking" on the View. You either need to ask Sandisk to implement it in their firmware, or hope that an interested/skilled View owner ports Rockbox (or another alternative firmware, but I'm not aware of any likely candidates apart from Rockbox) to run on the View.
16:57:06Rabbit^^Thank you.
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17:11:38robin0800can anyone comment on why jaunty alpha5 wont see my c240 no error message just http://paste.ubuntu.com/124707/ rockbox usb or alpha5 problem?
17:11:41Unhelpfuli've made a first test, with a "normal" bootloader. i can't duplicate the reset-loop problem, mine just hangs with the gigabeat boot logo, but no progress bar. dual-boot works. about to try the padded single-boot.
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17:12:53linuxstbrobin0800: Have you tried to narrow it down yourself? i.e. try the OF in alpha5, and Rockbox in other operating systems?
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17:14:14gartralhmm, after starting to use the linux rbutil to update my bootloaderm rb itself comes up as "r20098:20153M-090301"
17:14:42gartrals// bootloaderm/bootloader,
17:15:23linuxstbWhat do you mean? The bootloader shows that version number, or Rockbox itself does? If the latter, then that's nothing to do with the bootloader.
17:16:21gartrallinuxstb: the latter, and i should be more specific, after i gave rbutil root, to install the bootloader and update rockbox, sorry
17:18:16BigBambiand so it has?
17:19:18*gevaerts doesn't really see any question here
17:19:29*BigBambi neither
17:19:39BigBambiYou updated Rockbox and Rockbox has been updated...
17:19:40gartralhow do i return it to a normal build?
17:19:51BigBambi?
17:19:55linuxstbInstall a normal build.
17:20:12BigBambiWhat do you mean by "normal build"?
17:20:15gartralbut it says "M" at the end of the build string, wich looks like a combined build string!
17:20:31BigBambiM means modofied
17:20:37gartrali know that
17:20:46BigBambiBut for some reason "normal" builds sometimes have it too
17:20:49robin0800linuxstb: yes windows ok of ok on alpha5 all outher usb products ok in alpha5 just rockbox so far
17:21:08gartrali also know i shouldn't see it at the end of a build string that was from a build installed with rbutil
17:21:26gevaertsThat's the first time you say that...
17:21:31BigBambisee what I just said
17:21:55gartralok... so i'm panicking for nothing?
17:22:05linuxstbgartral: So your question is "Why does one of the Rockbox builds on the build server have the version string r20098:20153M-090301" ?
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17:23:11gartralyea, if you all see it too, if not, then it's "why the heck is my comp giving me a weird glitch, and should i worry about this?"
17:24:07BigBambiHow on earth could your computer cause it?
17:24:15*BigBambi decides to be more simple
17:24:21BigBambigartral: No, don't worry
17:24:38Unhelpfulgartral: your computer can not have modified the version string in that fashion by accident.
17:25:40gartralcause in the past, iv'e been knopwn too do stupid things to my computer that leave it in a half functioning state without reliseing it, and nearly crashed an entire NAS server once....
17:26:08gartralbut it was my one fault, non the less
17:26:59gartralback to point: theres no problem and i still have an "official build", right?
17:27:14gevaertsWhat target is this?
17:27:18BigBambiYES
17:27:46gartrale250, the only one i own
17:27:53linuxstbgartral: Did you select "current build" in rbutil?
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17:28:00gartralyes
17:28:04gevaertsgartral: look at http://build.rockbox.org/. There's some anomaly today for e200...
17:28:06UnhelpfuljhMikeS: the beast did something that looked very much like updating the flash after i ran the updater, with a couple of reboots that displayed a progress bar and a "don't reset the player" message that i've never seen before... but i must still not have the "bad" flash, because i can boot a perfectly normal single-boot nk.bin, once i stop mistakenly sending the bootloader.bin instead.
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17:30:16*linuxstb wonders who runs debussy.pauken.co.uk
17:30:37rasherGodEater manages it, iirc
17:31:23linuxstbgartral: If I was you, I would install the latest daily build
17:31:57gartralthat is what i have installed, according rbutil
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17:33:51gevaertsPossibly, but not according to what you said here
17:34:40gartralok, lemme see here
17:35:37gartralr20098:20153M-090301 no change after manual unzip...
17:36:33gevaertsAfter manual unzip of *what*?
17:37:02gartralthe rockbox.zip of the current builds page
17:37:22*gevaerts gives up
17:37:26rasherI'd *guess* it's related to http://build.rockbox.org/ showing r20098 for some targets, but I think we need Bagder to figure out what's going on
17:39:13rasherWe basically have no way of knowing what that build is. Could be any mix of r20098 and r20153 code
17:40:10gartralwell, it has stable USB...
17:40:21BigBambigartral: daily and current are two different words
17:40:38gartraloh
17:40:58*gartral learns to read farther back than one page!
17:40:59soapWhy do we even offer "daily" builds? To aid in binary searches?
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17:41:44BigBambi+ if the current i broken (less important now there are releases)
17:42:17gevaertssoap: just for cases like this where the current build is doubtful
17:42:27soapIt is not like gartral's problem is an uncommon one. Considering "support" is only offered for the (most recent) current build or releases then that also removes use for "daily" builds.
17:42:40soapThen cache 2, 3, 4 "current" builds.
17:42:55amiconnHmm. Is there a reason why credits.pl resides in apps/plugins/ ?
17:42:59soapinstead of daily ones.
17:43:40gartralamiconn: because the credits.rock plugin is a plugin
17:43:41gartral'?
17:43:56amiconnAll other build scripts reside in tools/
17:44:18Lloreansoap: They're usually called "archived" builds in most cases.
17:44:58LloreanThey have been useful to give someone an easy way to roll back if a single or a couple SVN revisions are bad.
17:45:03gartrallazy programmer?
17:45:25BigBambigartral: Please stop making random unhelpful suggestions
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18:14:34saratogahomedoes rbutil install the latest bootloader from SVN, or an archieved stable one?
18:15:14LloreanArchived stable.
18:16:02saratogahomeLlorean: any idea how old it is?
18:16:48saratogahomeI suppose if someone get "Version: r20108-090226" printed from the bootloader, they've not used rbutil?
18:17:09LloreanThat means they've updated to the test bootloaders on the tracker, I'd assume
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18:17:58saratogahomedoes the test version of rbutil install that bootloader or only the tracker?
18:18:05LloreanOnly the tracker
18:18:09LloreanYou need to use target-specific tools
18:18:29kugelAny last objection against the sorting patch? I'm committing in a few minutes
18:18:33LloreanRButil *should* download bootloaders from download.rockbox.org as far as I know, so that a new version of the Util isn't needed with new bootloaders.
18:18:49Lloreankugel: The version on the tracker?
18:19:30linuxstbkugel: What are the strings displayed in the settings menu, and what are the strings saved to the .cfg ?
18:20:26kugellinuxstb: "sort interpret number", "digit,numbers" in the cfg
18:21:01kugelLlorean's most recent suggestion in the settings menu
18:21:42linuxstbYou couldn't just say what that was?
18:21:47*linuxstb goes-a-searching
18:22:12kugellinuxstb: "Interpret numbers while sorting", with the options "As digits" and "As whole numbers"
18:23:08*gevaerts doesn't immediately see what those mean
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18:23:33kugelgevaerts: it describes perfectly what it does
18:23:36Lloreangevaerts: It's better than "Recognize numbers while sorting" with the options "true" and "false"
18:24:03linuxstbShouldn't that be "whilst sorting" ?
18:24:12gevaertskugel: I agree, but I have to read it several times to see it
18:24:17Lloreangevaerts: If the algorithm works like the sample seems to suggest, it recognizes all series of digits as a "number" rather than as a string of digits, so it's pretty descriptive.
18:24:28LloreanA better name is always welcome, though. :)
18:24:35gevaertsI know :)
18:24:40*gevaerts decides to keep out of this
18:24:59kugelbut we cannot agree on a name. Also, the manual will cover this
18:25:07BigBambikugel: whilst not while I think
18:25:14kugelok
18:25:22LloreanI've never even seen "whilst" used.
18:25:24*kugel thought while == whilst
18:25:27gevaertskugel: if you find more than two people who like a name, you're doing well and you should commit :)
18:25:34linuxstbLlorean: I think it's another British thing...
18:25:48BigBambikugel: they mean the same thing, it is a grammar difference
18:26:45BigBambiLlorean: It is used over here for sure, I don't know if the States has dropped it
18:27:14LloreanWe could replace it with "during" so that it doesn't seem weird to either type of English speaker.
18:27:28linuxstbOr "when" ?
18:27:32LloreanOr "when" yes.
18:27:35gevaertsduring looks really wrong to me
18:27:40BigBambior when
18:27:43BigBambihehe, damn lag
18:27:51BigBambiI prefer when to during
18:27:54LloreanI do too
18:28:06*gevaerts jouns in the when-admiration
18:28:11gevaerts*joins
18:28:16BigBambiOK, when
18:29:03kugelso, during or when or whilst?
18:29:05*linuxstb can't remember a setting name ever having so much effort spent on it before...
18:29:10linuxstbkugel: when
18:29:12*kugel neither
18:29:18gevaertskugel: when oir whilst
18:29:40ShyKto anyone developing or considering support for Musepack SV8: the format is finalized. we'll release it officially on the site today. changeset 435 is final/stable. http://trac.musepack.net/trac/
18:30:10*rasher prods preglow
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18:30:25kugelgevaerts: not a helpful answer (/me picked when now)
18:30:38saratogahomeShyK: we'd like SV8 support, but I think the person to talk to is Buschel
18:30:54Seedsaratogahome: then Shy and I will talk to him
18:31:27Seedsaratogahome: seen him on this channel lately?
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18:32:04saratogahomeSeed: i've seen him around lately, but he tends to pop in and out
18:32:15saratogahomehow big are the SV8 changes verses SV7?
18:32:36ShyKpretty huge
18:32:50ShyKin a good way
18:32:57Seedin terms of code, it's not a big deal to adapt.. it's documented very well.. in terms of stability/resilience, a lot
18:32:57saratogahomeis there a reference fixed point decoder?
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18:33:30ShyKsaratogahome: yes. can be compiled in fixed-point mode.
18:34:39rasherDo you have any ideas about the optimisations that have been done for Rockbox? (asm for coldfire and arm)
18:35:05ShyKBuschmann is the only one who knows them in depth, i think
18:35:46ShyKpsymodel-wise, encoding-wise, there is no difference, so there should be no problem
18:35:58ShyKthe changes are mainly stream related
18:36:08saratogahomewe mostly only care about the decoder here
18:36:14ShyKencoding/decoding, that is
18:36:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:36:22saratogahomeso what matters is if you've changed the bitstream or the inverse filterbanks
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18:36:55ShyKthe bitstream is changed, filterbanks are not
18:39:40kugel"Warning: DWIDTH spec > max FONTBOUNDINGBOX"
18:41:47saratogahomedid anyone offer to send fuman a Sansa?
18:42:40rasherI find it likely that the fund could fund one
18:42:46rasherIf no one else does
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18:43:10saratogahomeI was just going to offer to send him my Fuze
18:43:39saratogahomei've still got a clip anyway
18:43:47kugelI think we/he should ask Zagor, I think he doesn't really use it or hack on it
18:44:15kugelsaratogahome: is your fuze still functional?
18:44:18fmlkugel: that warning is also a remnant of not quite clean implementation of convbdf. But it's harmless.
18:47:12saratogahomekugel: yeah it works
18:47:32saratogahomebut i've been pretty useless anyway, so funman might as well have it
18:47:40saratogahomeand i've still got the clip
18:48:27linuxstbsaratogahome: What capacity is it?
18:48:47*linuxstb reads the email...
18:49:10*kugel bets his commit message will be controversial too
18:49:24linuxstbkugel: Then change it...
18:51:06saratogahomelinuxstb: only a 2GB, so probably no good for funman
18:51:19saratogahomehopefully someone will step up wtih a 4GB one for him though
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18:51:32saratogahomehonestly if the guy has free time, we should send him as many AMS players as he'll take
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18:52:10kugelsaratogahome: I tought you experienced the >2GB problem too?
18:52:19linuxstbsaratogahome: I was talking about the Fuze (I know that wasn't clear).
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18:52:35saratogahomeah yeah, its an 8GB
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18:52:51kugelah yea, now the email comes in
18:52:55saratogahomeand it definately has the flash problem, so it should be fine for that purpose, though i think funman was most interested in teh clip
18:53:00webguest07Could fs#9709 please be closed? I like the Keven's translations much better than my own.
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18:55:16linuxstbwebguest07: You're Harry Tu/bookshare/countrymonkey ?
18:58:09webguest07yes.
18:58:34webguest07and?
18:59:23gevaertswebguest07: well, if someone says "His translations are better than mine", it's helpful to know *who* says it...
18:59:25linuxstbHaving one identity is helpful, especially if you're asking for one of your patches to be closed.
19:00
19:00:35webguest07yes, I did the translations.
19:00:52webguest07It'd also help if his stuff was committed, but...
19:01:13webguest07alright, I'll go as bookshare from now on.
19:03:52fmlwhat is the make target to build the fonts?
19:10:00linuxstbfml: I'm not sure if there is - maybe it's part of buildzip.pl
19:10:37fmllinuxstb: I'll search for convbdf in make files
19:11:23Lloreanlinuxstb: Is there "make fontzip"?
19:11:24linuxstbfml: I've just checked - convbdf is called from buildzip.pl
19:11:33LloreanI can't remember if that exists or if it's just something someone suggested once.
19:11:34linuxstbi.e. not directly by any Makefile
19:11:37*kugel is happy now
19:11:46 Quit perrikwp ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
19:12:08kadobanyeah, fontzip exists
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19:17:05fmllinuxstb: ah, thanks! Is it called after the main build process (make) has been run? I.e. there is no chance for the font warnings to be displayed in the build table, right (even if they wouldn't be ignored)?
19:19:09linuxstbIt will be called as part of "make fullzip" - I expect the build table builds are just a "make zip".
19:19:25linuxstbAlthough some fonts are made then...
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19:20:58kugelwould anyone volunteer for the manual work of the sorting patch?
19:21:03linuxstbThere are other things it would be useful to build automatically as well - things like tools/database/ and checkwps.
19:21:38fmllinuxstb: ok. I think I should talk to someone who anderstands the process of creation of the build table. Do we want to see the font warnings in there?
19:21:47Lloreankugel: Generally you should try to do the manual work before you commit, so they can go in together.
19:22:28kugelHm, I prefer the manual work in a seperate commit, that's how I did it before too. Is there a guideline about this?
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19:22:55linuxstbfml: I think the problem is that making the builds do a "make fullzip" would slow down the build process (larger zips to copy back to the server). But what can cause font warnings?
19:23:11Lloreankugel: "together" doesn't mean same commit, you could do the manual work and commit it immediately before or afte.r
19:23:13linuxstbi.e. is it only when a bad font is committed? Or can other things accidentally break them?
19:23:20kugelI mean, I'd gladly do it myself. But a) I don't have the manual toolchain, b) I'm not a native English speaker
19:23:49Lloreankugel: The idea though is not to have features sitting around waiting for someone to document them, because it generally means the manual just gets less and less correct.
19:24:41LloreanFor example, if you're worried about your English you could post the text of the proposed manual entry to -dev so people can comment on it and help tidy it up.
19:24:49kugelI know the idea. But I always have the manual and don't wait for someone
19:24:52fmllinuxstb: warning can be caused by wrong font metrics or by the way Rockbox handles them (see my last comment in FS #9931) −− we have some such fonts in SVN
19:25:09Lloreankugel: I don't understand that sentence. What do you mean?
19:25:21kugelI just ask if someone volunteers. If nobody does, I'll do it right now
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19:26:11kugelBigBambi maybe? :)
19:26:12linuxstbfml: But the only thing that can add a new warning (or error) is a change to convbdf.c or one of the font files?
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19:26:34fmllinuxstb: I think yes.
19:26:39Lloreankugel: I was just suggesting that next time you wait another day or another few hours to write the manual patch as well. That way if *you* get busy and have to stop writing it, it doesn't mean we have a new feature sitting in SVN without a manual description.
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19:27:14linuxstbfml: Then I don't think we need automated checking - a single test build (as we don't have target-specific fonts) is enough for a committer to confirm it's OK.
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19:28:11fmllinuxstb: and a change to convbdf can be caused by a change in Rockbox's core (convbdf should be honest and accurately tell what problems might occur with valid fonts if they are used in RB) :-) It's a chain reaction.
19:28:21linuxstbfml: It sounds more like something for a separate webpage (possibly automated - like rasher's .lang file pages) listing current fonts with problems that need fixing.
19:28:38kugeloh, I have the toolchain
19:28:40linuxstbfml: How can a change in Rockbox's core change convbdf? Does it share code?
19:28:49fmllinuxstb: yes, that's reasonable
19:29:32linuxstbMaybe rasher could even be tempted to do it - it would fit into his site...
19:29:37fmllinuxstb: suppose we'd extended the capability of RB's rendering engine. Then some warnings should disappear.
19:29:56rasherlinuxstb: I might. I expect this doesn't need to be updated terribly often?
19:30:00linuxstbfml: Yes, but that would be a human making a change to convbdf.c?
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19:30:23fmllinuxstb: yes, of course. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough
19:30:30linuxstbrasher: A daily cronjob would seem sufficient.
19:30:58fmlrasher: BTW, cyrillic glyphs are now a part of 12-Adobe-Helvetica
19:31:18rasherfml: I'll see about updating the fontstats page. I don't quite remember what that involves...
19:31:59fmlrasher: me too (I've never known it :-)
19:32:44rasherLooks like I've got it automated.. hang on
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19:34:40fmlkugel: I find the symbol names a bit misleading (I'd insert "NUM" in the middle)
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19:35:48fml rasher, linuxstb: would you agree with clipping glyphs that can't be rendered by RB?
19:36:33*rasher doesn't know much about font rendering, but it sounds better than not including it at all
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19:39:10*rasher uploads pngs and other stuff
19:39:26linuxstbfml: I haven't been following the discussion. What does Rockbox do at the moment with such glyphs?
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19:40:39fmllinuxstb: the way rockbox handles them hasn't changed at all. Just convbdf generates "bad" glyphs (with some seemingly random bits at the edges) −− see screenshots in FS #9931
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19:41:49fmllinuxstb: and convbdf generates them like this because RB couldn't handle them in the correct way (i.e. how they are supposed to be handled by full size rendering engines)
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19:42:31linuxstbfml: OK, so the problem is that some fonts have glyphs designed to be taller than the "font height" ?
19:43:16fmllinuxstb: yes
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19:44:21linuxstbIs this common? Sounds odd to me..
19:44:39linuxstbi.e. it will overwrite text above or below it...
19:44:48linuxstbs/will/can/
19:44:50fmllinuxstb: it happens (as it seems to me) with some accented glyphs
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19:45:32fmllinuxstb: yes, that would happen. But RB can't do this hence the best option we have is to clip
19:45:49rasherIs this valid?
19:46:17fmlrasher: another option would be to reject such fonts
19:46:40rasherI think clipping is fine, just curious
19:46:41fmlI.e. convbdf would issue an error message and quit
19:46:49Lloreanrasher: According to what I've read FONT_ASCENT is just intended for spacing, and glyphs are allowed to extend beyond it.
19:47:04linuxstbfml: Do you know how many svn fonts that would reject?
19:47:19fmlLlorean: yes, that's how I understand it now
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19:47:50linuxstbThat doesn't seem useful for Rockbox - where we display lines with no line-spacing.
19:48:22fmllinuxstb: not exactly. But > 1 :-) Some might be easy to correct (I've done this) because it's just a copy-paste error for one or two glyphs. But in others it's systematic
19:48:38kugelis this good?
19:48:40kugelhttp://pastie.org/403915
19:49:00linuxstbIt just seems to be saying "most glyphs are this height, but some are bigger", whereas we need to know the height of the biggest.
19:49:04Lloreankugel: I'd avoid the word "intuitive" as it means different things for different people
19:49:40rasher"at the beginning or within filenames" => "in filenames"
19:50:10Lloreanenables a sorting algorithm which is able to interpret series of digits at the beginning or within filenames as whole numbers and allows the files to be sorted based on their value rather than comparing one digit at a time. \setting{As digit} disables this algorithm, so that each digit is compared seperately.
19:50:11fmlkugel: I'd also avoid the word "algorithm"
19:50:19linuxstbkugel: I would refer to this being the default way Windows Explorer and OS X Finder sort things, and provide some examples.
19:50:32linuxstbi.e. choose 3 or 4 names, and show them sorted in the two ways.
19:50:37rasherAnd Nautilus!
19:51:38fmllinuxstb: the settings (ascent, descent) define (a) the distance between two base lines and (b) how glyphs should be placed on a line
19:52:09kugelrasher: well, nautilus has some more extras w.r.t to sortin
19:52:44linuxstbfml: Maybe we're simply calculating "font_height" wrongly? i.e. using the distance between two base lines, whereas we should be using "distance between top of highest glyph and bottom of lowest glyph".
19:52:44rasherkugel: Like what? It does use natsort.
19:53:12rasherlinuxstb: That might be smarter, given Rockbox' font renderer
19:53:33Lloreanlinuxstb: FONT_ASCENT and FONT_DESCENT are supposedly intended to be used for spacing, but we may want to use a calculated absolute height instead so that we can show and scroll full accent marks.
19:53:39kugelrasher: ignores leading dots and underscores, _ and - within filenames sort the same
19:53:55Lloreanlinuxstb: I think we're not using it "wrongly" so much as "our case doesn't work well with their intended purpose"
19:54:04fmllinuxstb: no, I think we do it correct. Doing it your way would avoid the need to clip but it would also change the distance between base lines and thus would change the "font picture" −− something explicitly set by the font designer
19:54:12rasherkugel: Right, well as long as you avoid those things in your example, you *could* mention it, though there's probably no need to
19:54:20linuxstbI meant "wrongly" in terms of "not the best way for Rockbox".
19:55:09linuxstbfml: I don't understand. All we're doing is in effect setting a larger line-spacing between lines of fonts.
19:55:21linuxstbs/we're/we would/
19:55:35linuxstbBah, I meant "All we would be doing..."
19:55:38rasherAnd that would *only* be for fonts which have glyphs that are "too large"
19:55:56fmllinuxstb: you're right. But this "only" is considered a very important measure in a font
19:57:22linuxstbWell, I can see five choices: 1) Reject the font; 2) Reject the glyph; 3) Clip the glyph; 4) Increase the font height; 5) Rewrite the Rockbox font rendering and scrolling code...
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19:57:54Lloreanlinuxstb: With the demonstrated screenshots, the fonts are about 1.5 times as tall in some cases, that's a lot less lines per screen.
19:58:14LloreanClipping *may* be better, I don't know how many fonts have problems, and how unreadable it will make them though
19:59:21rasherWow, that's a pretty poor font design if you have glyphs that high
19:59:34Lloreanrasher: They go downward more than normal too, I think
19:59:49fmlrasher: or a quite smart rendering engine :-)
20:00
20:01:07rasherfml: How would that ever work without producing overlapping glyphs?
20:01:15linuxstbI guess that adding clipping with a warning would be a sensible first step though, but it's not really a permanent solution.
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20:02:05fmlrasher: font design is not very simple. It's often a trade off. They "grey picture" is one of most important things (how you see a page from 3m distance)
20:02:36fmlthey -> the
20:02:57rasherI don't see how you can claim you've made a good font if the user will have to fight with overlapping text
20:03:13fmlAnd it's directly influences by the font height (ascend+descend)
20:04:15fmlrasher: that glyphs occur not very often (I think). And if they do occur often (in a certain language) then the font design should be changed for using in that country
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20:05:43LloreanWell, is there a "standard" line spacing?
20:05:54LloreanI mean, I know most print isn't spaced like Rockbox is
20:05:57fmllinuxstb: I think the options 2 and 5 are not feasible
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20:06:42fmllinuxstb: and if we had these error/warning messages thise fonts wouldn't be accepted in SVN
20:07:39IuDeXit's good to see that -> funman is back ;]
20:08:13fmlLlorean: no, I think there's no such thing. There might be some guiding rules, e.g. "line spacing should be ~2* x-height". But in the end it's a matter of design
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20:09:59fmlIMP the linuxstb's options 1 and 3 (reject or clip the font) are the best
20:10:07LloreanApparently one pattern is to make each line 1.2 times the point size of the font on that line.
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20:10:31LloreanWe could do that *and* clip. This would introduce a little more spacing, so the clipped images could be more visible on average.
20:10:46LloreanWe'd have to clip less off of them, when/if we do
20:11:21fmlLlorean: font height *is* the line height. I.e. it includes vertical space
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20:12:39Lloreanfml: What about the leading many/most things have?
20:13:31fmlLlorean: sorry, I don't understand. What is leading?
20:14:01Lloreanfml: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading
20:15:26fmlAh, ok. But that's only done in word processing and DTP systems. Rockbox always uses leading = 0 (i.e. no extra space between lines)
20:16:19LloreanIt's also done in display of webpages through CSS properties, etc.
20:16:42LloreanBasically, anywhere you're going to display multiple lines of text you need to decide if you're going to be spacing them. Apparently some fonts assume a certain minimum added line spacing (for some reason).
20:17:41fgallinaIs there a way to compile my test plugin and test it on the uiSimulator?
20:18:05Lloreanfgallina: Yes, by compiling a simulator build with your plugin included.
20:18:06fmlLlorean: No, I think that those are extra features. A "natural" picture, i.e. as thought by the font designer, is without leading
20:18:45Lloreanfml: I find this hard to believe since leading has been around as long enough that the term actually refers to the lead spacers used in old print typography.
20:18:56LloreanBy now people ought to know that their lines will include spacing.
20:19:59fgallinaLlorean: if I make any changes to my plugin how can I recompile only my plugin?
20:20:30Lloreanfgallina: If you compile in the same build directory it should only recompile files that need recompiling.
20:20:36fmlLlorean: leading has always been used to fill up pages and paragraphs. This is similar to how char spacing is changed to fill the lines in newspapers. But that's advanced typesetting which we don't have in RB
20:21:41LloreanBut why *shouldn't* we simply space lines to make it more readable?
20:23:59fmlLlorean: we could (of course at compile time, i.e. when running convbdf). But that wouldn't solve all problems because something would always be left. But yes, we could introduce a "stretchability" or "tolerance" parameter to convbdf.
20:24:56LloreanMy suggestion is to add a little extra spacing when necessary, but temper it with a maximum after which we clip so that we don't end up having giant amounts of spacing for a few characters that the user may never even see.
20:27:02linuxstbI still think that making Rockbox consider "font height" as the maximum distance between the top of the highest font and the bottom of the lowest is more useful - fonts which take advantage of that feature don't seem suited to Rockbox.
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20:29:13fmllinuxstb: if we had the warnings the font wouldn't have been included (because it's apparently not suited for RB)
20:30:21fmllinuxstb: I mean, the person who wanted to include it would see the warnings and wouldn't do it in the end
20:30:29linuxstbI just meant that if a warning was added, we would know what fonts it affected, and could then decide what to do with them - one option would be to delete the font.
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20:34:07fmllinuxstb: the patch in FS #9931 adds the warning and clips. We can then decide what to do.
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20:46:30rasherpetur: Mind testing some bootloaders? The current is broken, and we don't know when it stopped working. Last positively known good is r12000-something
20:47:13peturlet me fetch it first and see if it still holds some charge
20:47:17linuxstbrasher: Maybe it would be more useful to build ipodpatcher and sansapatcher binaries. Windows/Linux binaries are easy - just copy the bootloaders into the sansapatcher/ipodpatcher directory and type "make" or "make ipodpatcher.exe" (and same for sansapatcher)
20:48:08rasherHow does the H10 bootloader installation work?
20:48:16linuxstbAlthough I think you may need to uncomment two lines in the Makefile for ipodpatcher....
20:48:25*linuxstb has no idea
20:48:30rasherI don't think we need testing for anything but H10 (and mrobe100) at this stage
20:48:54linuxstbAh, OK. I thought you were talking about rebuilding all the PP bootloaders.
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20:49:23rasherlinuxstb: Turns out only the sansas have changed behavior, and those have been pretty thoroughly tested already
20:49:39rasherThe ipods never did any usb detection in the bootloader. I didn't know that
20:49:48peturI remember having quite a bit of trouble taming my H10 when I got it first...
20:50:41rasherpetur: A selection of bootloaders (both ums and mtp) at rasher.dk/rockbox/h10_5gb/">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/h10_5gb/
20:51:00peturheh
20:51:13peturit is currently charging a bit...
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21:00
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21:05:50dberg918hey, just wanted to put something on the IRC record
21:06:14dberg918I was here a few days ago talking about FLAC files that were skipping on my H10 20GB
21:06:30dberg918turns out the problem was the album art in those directories
21:06:49linuxstbAh, so nothing to do with them being FLAC files?
21:06:54dberg918ever since resizing was committed to SVN, I stopped manually resizing everything
21:06:59dberg918nope
21:07:17dberg918so the art in those directories was pretty big
21:07:23dberg918that's what was causing problems
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21:07:28linuxstbAh, so the problem is the delay when resizing your album-art?
21:07:32dberg918yeah
21:07:57linuxstbThat sounds nasty...
21:08:03dberg918in one directory, it was bigger than 1000x1000, so the .bmp was like 5MB
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21:08:42dberg918I'm not experiencing lag with art as large as 500x500
21:08:56 Nick beer is now known as linuxstb (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb)
21:09:11dberg918which come out to be about 732.5kb
21:09:14dberg918comes*
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21:09:35linuxstbWhat device is this on?
21:09:39dberg918still hefty compared to 60kb jpgs
21:09:51dberg918this was on an H10 20GB
21:10:02dberg918I know, what am I doing with 500x500 album art
21:10:25rasherdberg918: that wouldn't really help any, since the delay happens when resizing, and a 60kb jpg would uncompress to a large size before resizing (unless we cheat)
21:10:28linuxstb500x500 seems to be normal for album-art I've downloaded
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21:10:48linuxstbrasher: It could also be the time taken to read 5MB from disk...
21:10:58linuxstbOr at least, that doesn't help...
21:11:13rasherTrue. Hard to know which it is, I guess
21:11:24dberg918that's what I figured linuxstb, especially if you're trying to load FLAC files into the buffer all the while
21:12:31dberg918so yeah, if anyone comes in talking about lagging playback, checking album art is certainly worth a mention
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21:13:10linuxstbNo-one has tested a H10 20GB it seems, but according to this page http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DiskSpeed the similar ipod 4G reads at either 2215 KB/s or 3495 KB/s, depending on whether the read is aligned.
21:13:20jaykayshould not reproducable bugs be closed in the tracker?
21:13:36linuxstbSo reading that file could take a couple of secons.
21:13:47rasherjaykay: There's no simple answer to that
21:14:03*linuxstb wonders what thread does the album-art reading and resizing
21:14:29jaykayrasher: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9436, the player froze while normal playback, he didnt manage to reproduce it
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21:15:28dberg918how did I not find this DiskSpeed page in my searches on rockbox.org?
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21:15:53dberg918it answers pretty much all the questions I had...
21:15:57linuxstbdberg918: But I think I would call that a bug - if we say to users that they can use any size album-art, I wouldn't expect large images to interfere with playback.
21:16:35dberg918shall I file a report about revising some documentation?
21:17:04rasherWas it jhMikeS who committed a change that might fix all sorts of lock-ups on h1x0?
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21:19:13rasherah yes, r19991
21:20:17dberg918linuxstb: the AlbumArt page makes no mention of using any size album art...but it doesn't make a recommendation either
21:20:53Unhelpfulrasher: there are rather excellent cheats available when decoding jpeg - you can use a partial iDCT that actually uses fewer operations than decoding all of the coefficients, to produce a smaller block. this can be done for any N/8 scale if chroma is not subsampled, and i think any N/4 scale if it is.
21:21:07rasherUnhelpful: Yeah, I just realised that while I was typing it
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21:21:42dberg918maybe if there was just a disclaimer stating that album art size can adversely affect initial playback?
21:22:05rasherdberg918: I'll add one to the manual
21:22:06Unhelpfuldberg918: did it? it shouldn't, the scaler yields every row.
21:22:09linuxstbdberg918: I would say it's a bug in Rockbox, not a bug in the documentation. Although that's debatable - if it's hard to fix, we would need to tell users to limit their art to a certain size.
21:22:26dberg918oh
21:22:49saratogaperhaps the actually buffering code doesn't yeild enough while loading the bmp into memory?
21:22:52dberg918so, you're saying the album art should be loaded kind of, "around" playback?
21:23:14saratogathough I suppose this would go away if we got jpeg support in core . . .
21:23:20*rasher will hold off doing anything then
21:24:00linuxstbThat's how I would have expected it to work. Although with FLAC (and any similar high-bitrate codec) the problem would be that the decoding thread runs out of data before the album art is loaded, and the next track isn't buffered until after the metadata (including album-art) is loaded...
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21:24:26linuxstbs/would be/could be/
21:24:35kugellinuxstb: or at least recomment something. Like saying that having bmp's bigger than screen size doesn't make much sense (and may cause playback problems)
21:24:55Unhelpfulsaratoga: well, isn't the bitmap loaded *by* the buffering thread? the yield should suffice to prevent stalling of playback of buffered material, but obviously nothing can be done about getting the next track into buffer, unless bitmap loads are split to another thread
21:25:04*rasher thought the album art thread scaled while loading, so the yields should happen while reading a swell
21:25:20*rasher was wrong, it seems
21:25:34Unhelpful...is there an album art thread?
21:25:54saratogai assumed it was done by buffering, in which case Unhelpful's explination makes sense
21:25:54kugelI don't think so
21:26:02linuxstbI'm guessing it's done on the buffering thread as well.
21:26:10kugelthe loading happens in the buffering thread, iiuc
21:26:17saratogadoes the ATA DMA patch work on the H10?
21:26:37Unhelpfulsaratoga: i'm only guessing it is... but it would explain the behavior
21:26:38linuxstbSo either: a) the buffering/resize thread is starving the codec thread; or b) the codec thread runs out of data.
21:27:25dberg918the lag/skipping happens right at the beginning of playback
21:27:40rasherUnhelpful: That's not quite what I meant to type :)
21:27:44linuxstbYou mean when you start the first track?
21:27:47dberg918I hear about 1 second of music, then it skips
21:28:05dberg918it happens whenever I play a track in a directory that has gigantic album art
21:28:18dberg918play as in, actively select
21:28:21Unhelpfulcould the bitmap be *so* large that yield-per-line doesn't suffice?
21:28:40saratogai doubt it
21:28:47saratogaand anyway, the CPU should boost in that case
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21:28:51dberg918and I think the lag was longer the bigger the album art
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21:29:12LloreanIsn't the CPU always boosted when buffering?
21:29:18*linuxstb is confused - he would have expected the first track's album art to be loaded before the track starts decoding.
21:29:20Unhelpfulsaratoga: resize_on_load boosts around the call to the actual scaler
21:29:26saratogaah ok
21:29:30LloreanThough I seem to recall FLAC being able to easily allow PCM to underrun in the past due to bad VBR estimation (or something)
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21:32:31*linuxstb wonders if Nico_P can explain how AA works...
21:33:03 Quit SirFunk_ (Connection reset by peer)
21:33:33saratogathe ATA-DMA patch doesn't add support for the H10, but it probably could
21:33:42saratogain which case the read speed would likely go up a lot
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21:35:29peturrasher: the first H10 bootloader I tried (r11000) already fails to load rockbox (-1) - is this the issue I'm looking for?
21:36:43rasherpetur: It should load Rockbox but not the OF... :\
21:37:00linuxstbsaratoga: Have people done test_disk.c benchmarks with that patch? Browsing FS #9708 quickly, I can't see any.
21:37:08rasherpetur: There's a report on the current bootloader in FS #9955
21:38:03rasherpetur: 11000 might be broken as well though, I guess
21:38:09rasherTry 12k and 13k
21:38:10peturrasher: my bootloader dates from 2007/08/20, maybe something changed?
21:38:14peturI ĺl try
21:38:29rasherI'm quite sure a lot of things changed!
21:38:49*linuxstb realises he should have actually searched for "test_disk" in FS #9708...
21:39:09saratogaGevaerts USB tests w/ CF showed a 3x improvement in read speed at least
21:41:09saratogaits really strange that doesn't translate into a battery life improvement
21:42:24gevaertsDoes the disk spin down immediately after buffering?
21:42:33linuxstbWell, how long does Rockbox spend reading from disk during a typical battery benchmark?
21:42:39gevaertsAlso, non-CF isn't nearly as dramatic
21:43:00rasherpetur: I think we're basically in a position where it would be great if we could create *any* bootloader that works :\
21:45:40 Quit robin0800 ("No Ping reply in 30 seconds.")
21:45:42saratogalinuxstb: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9708#comment27592
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21:50:39peturrasher: r13000 boots rockbox
21:50:49rasherpetur: And the OF?
21:51:07soappetur: does r11000 fail to load rockbox because it is looking in the wrong place? As in the root of the drive (where y'all used to put it) vs the .rockbox folder?
21:51:08peturhmm how do you boot OF?
21:51:21rashersoap has a point
21:51:24petursoap: first thing I tried ;)
21:51:30LloreanI thought that by the time we were on PP targets, we always looked in both.
21:51:43*gevaerts points to the helpful manual :)
21:52:16soapLlorean: You've long held that view, but IIRC we had quite a bit of problems with older bootloaders and the iPod series upon the switch.
21:53:09Lloreansoap: The problem we had was that it looked in the root before in .rockbox, so it loaded the older build.
21:53:17LloreanNot that it didn't look in .rockbox at all.
21:53:29soapbut it isn't petur's issue (him being (at least) one step ahead of me already). Ahh on the sequence.
21:53:58LloreanYeah. I'm pretty sure the iPod bootloader always looked in both, but the default order was bad for the changeover.
21:54:03LloreanBut, I could be wrong.
21:54:42peturah... hold cancel while starting
21:54:54peturr13000 also boots OF
21:55:16rasherpetur: \o/
21:55:30rasherr7976 was when the iriver bootloader started looking in .rockbox, so that's far earlier
21:55:31peturwow.... I wonder what iriver did to make that touch strip work soo well in their firmware
21:56:39rasherpetur: Okay, so the binary search is on
21:57:16rasherpetur: Prod me if you want me to build some more bootloaders
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22:00
22:06:03 Quit gregorovius ()
22:07:40 Quit jaykay ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]")
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22:13:49peturrasher: 14k is ok, 14.5k only boots RB
22:14:03rasherpetur: progress!
22:14:22 Quit calman_ ()
22:14:37rasherCompiling some bootloaders in that range now
22:15:14*petur hums 'bakerman is baking bread' while walking to the oven
22:16:00 Join calman_ [0] (n=caleb@66.213.109.43)
22:16:55rasherpetur: Uploaded in the same location
22:17:01saratogaI want to fix the vorbis comment crash bug
22:17:08saratogabut i have a question
22:17:21saratogais it ok if I apply a max size limit on vorbis tags?
22:17:34rasherWe already have one for ID3, so I don't see why not
22:17:40saratogabecause right now I can fix the bug on the tracker just by checking the return value of malloc
22:18:09saratogabut if someone puts a large tag thats smaller then the codec buffer it will pass the malloc, but still crash later on because there won't be enough memory left for decoding
22:18:35saratogarasher: do you know what a sensible limit is?
22:18:49rasherNo idea about that, no
22:19:06saratogaI was thinking 10KB might be a reasonable limit for a tag
22:19:23saratogasince I doubt rockbox can productively display vorbis comments even 1/10th that size
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22:29:28 Nick Horschti is now known as Horscht (n=Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht)
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22:34:43saratogaok 10000 characters it is
22:34:49 Quit redbindelta (Client Quit)
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22:35:33rasherThat's not 10KB
22:35:39saratogai know
22:35:48rasherAlright
22:36:02fgallinaI've written a plugin, I compiled it but it is not listed on the available plugins in my uiSimulator
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22:36:19fgallinawhy could this be caused, I'm executing make fullinstall after make
22:36:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:36:34rasherfgallina: How did you compile it? Did you add it to apps/plugins/SOURCES and apps/plugins/CATEGORIES?
22:36:37peturrasher: between 14000 and 14050
22:36:45fgallinain SOURCES
22:37:00rasherpetur: Building those..
22:37:24 Quit nuonguy ("This computer has gone to sleep")
22:37:33Red_Build_Deltadoes the red in the lower build table influence the functionality of the current build ?
22:37:38rasherfgallina: *and*
22:38:06kugelRed_Build_Delta: no, the first row is the current build
22:38:35rasherRed_Build_Delta: the lower table simply visualises size changes in Rockbox code
22:39:21kugeloh, I thought he means the reds in the bottom row in the first build table
22:39:34fgallinathanks rasher!
22:39:46 Quit Xerion (" ")
22:40:04rasherfgallina: This seems to be a common error - where did you check for what to do?
22:40:05 Quit Red_Build_Delta (Client Quit)
22:40:29rasherpetur: some more uploaded.. a few builds failed
22:41:03fgallinaactually the page on the wiki related on how to write plugins was not helping very much
22:41:26fgallinait only recommended the vmware image which I don't want to use
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22:42:54OniakIs it possible to install rockbox on my creative zen portable media center?
22:43:12JdGordonis there anything on the site to suggest you can?
22:43:26rasherfgallina: It did actually tell you to add your plugin to the CATEGORIES file though
22:43:56OniakNot really anything but I figured Id ask.
22:44:10LloreanOniak: The site is up to date.
22:44:43OniakYes, and that means?
22:45:07rasherOniak: That if your player was supported, it would be in the list of supported players.
22:45:26OniakYou mean the thing under manual install
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22:45:41saratogahe means the list on the front page
22:45:52OniakOHhhhh
22:45:53Oniakk
22:47:22 Part Oniak
22:47:23*JdGordon assumes he missed the kill-kugel post commit party? :D
22:47:38rasherJdGordon: No, I think there's still time.
22:47:47LloreanDid he break something, or something?
22:47:51linuxstbsaratoga: What "malloc" are you referring to (for vorbis comments) ?
22:48:02*amiconn grumbles about the delta for the unnatural sorting :\\
22:48:13 Quit rehpotsirhc (Client Quit)
22:48:18JdGordonLlorean: no... just the usual post commit rant about deltas and unwanted features :)
22:49:12rasherThere we go
22:49:45rasherpetur: Uploaded all bootloaders between r14000 and r14050 now
22:49:50 Quit DC1 ("$4e75")
22:50:05peturfine. I'm between 14000 and 14015 atm
22:50:11rasherEeek
22:50:16rasherThose are the ones that don't compile
22:50:16*amiconn wonders what he missed
22:50:24amiconn(re bootloaders)
22:50:35fgallinarasher: yes you are right, sorry about that. However I think it should be remarked, perhaps making a title regarding compilation.
22:50:38peturH10 bootloaders failing to load the OF
22:50:43rasheramiconn: Trying to track down when the h10_5gb bootloader stopped being able to boot the OF
22:50:49amiconnah
22:50:59amiconnWell, my H10 is able to boot the OF
22:51:18amiconnI'm using the latest official bootloader iirc
22:51:20rasherBut you're probably using something like ~r12800 if you're using the release bootloader
22:51:23peturrasher: are you still uploading or what?
22:51:35rasherpetur: no, done.. the missing ones don't compile
22:51:45petureeek indeed
22:51:50rasherBetween r14003 and r14016
22:52:01*linuxstb sees saratoga's commit and wonders why Tremor is reading tags at all...
22:52:24*amiconn recommends to compared .map file between the latest working and a non-working one
22:52:46rasherr14004 looks likely to possibly break a bootloader
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22:53:20amiconnThe non-working bootloader usb in bootbox turned out to be the missing usb thread, which was visible in the .map
22:53:31 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
22:53:35rasherI suppose the fix in r14015 broke something for booting the OF
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22:54:00petur14001 is ok, going for 14003 now
22:54:15rasherr14006 *might* also be interesting, but less likely, I think
22:54:40linuxstbsaratoga: Wouldn't the correct fix for FS #9866 be to stop Tremor from reading tags? Lear mentioned that in the comments on that task.
22:55:48petur14003 is fine as well
22:55:59 Part calman_
22:56:20*rasher compiles and saves .map files
22:56:31kugelis this good? http://pastie.org/404055
22:56:34 Quit ender` (" Please help Conserve Gravity - Play Chess, not Basketball.")
22:57:17rasherkugel: looks good to me
22:57:33rasherThough I'd probably use something other than foo and bar
22:57:49rasherMake it look slightly more plausible
22:59:06kugeland what? :)
22:59:33kugelI could pick some random album of mine
22:59:40JdGordonkugel: I'd change the first sentance to something like "enables a sorting which resembles the sorting in most standard browsers, where groups of digits are considered numbers and sorted before letter, e.g ..."
23:00
23:00:14kugelsorted before letter?
23:00:28rasherkugel: Doesn't really matter, I just think using foo bar etc looks a bit "unpolished"
23:01:00JdGordonkugel: letters*
23:01:19rasherJdGordon: That doesn't really explain what it does
23:01:20kugelyea, but that's not true
23:01:51*kugel picks johnny cash
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23:03:05kadobankugel: maybe just s/, for example,// ?
23:03:42rasherkugel: Maybe add "episode 1 / episode 10 / episode 2" to the list?
23:04:04kugelfine
23:04:08kugelkadoban: Why?
23:04:33rasherkugel: To make obvious that it's not only about initial numbers
23:04:38kadobankugel: it looks overly complicated and seems to work without it? maybe it's just me
23:04:54rasherpetur: so 14003 is good, 14016 is bad, and the ones in between don't build?
23:05:07rasherpetur: Wait, how about 14015?
23:05:16petur14015 is also bad
23:05:28peturI never tried 14016
23:06:14*kugel adds episode and a \caption
23:06:32rasherAh, right, no point
23:06:48*rasher attempts to collect .map files again
23:09:10 Quit fgallina (Remote closed the connection)
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23:10:06 Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:10:21 Quit Zoxc ()
23:10:49rasherThe obvious change between r14003 and r14015 is the removal of set_cpu_frequency, if I read this right
23:11:19rasherrasher.dk/rockbox/h10_5gb/bootloader.map.r14003">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/h10_5gb/bootloader.map.r14003 - http://rasher.dk/rockbox/h10_5gb/bootloader.map.r14015
23:12:32amiconnhah
23:12:38 Quit drehpotsirhc ("Leaving")
23:12:55amiconnIirc the H10 rom sets the frequency to 80MHz. I guess the OF expects that...
23:15:29rasherThat doesn't sound terribly unlikely
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23:22:55rasheramiconn: Any idea how to fix?
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23:27:01lunix151Hello everybody
23:28:10 Quit tyfoo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:28:18lunix151I just started to test the new usb support in the Sansa e200
23:29:13lunix151I can mount it just fine but rhythmbox and banshee both hang and spit the following message "ptp_usb_getresp: detected short response of 32 bytes, expect problems!"
23:29:22*amiconn summons Zagor
23:30:00linuxstblunix151: Hmm, sounds like those apps are attempting to use MTP
23:30:07rasherlunix151: That sounds a bit like they're expecting an MTP device
23:30:07*linuxstb summons gevaerts
23:30:10rasherToo slow..
23:30:19lunix151yes
23:30:23*gevaerts was going to say the same
23:30:41*Bagder thought PTP was for cameras...
23:30:48 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:30:49rasherBagder: MTP is a dialect of PTP
23:30:56gevaertsTreating a mass storage device as MTP isn't going to work well
23:31:00lunix151ok so the rockbox firmware doesn't support mtp then? ill just turn off that plugin the
23:31:03lunix151then
23:31:05lunix151makes sense
23:31:19rasherBagder: And I believe those use libgphoto or a derived library to do mtp
23:31:24LloreanMaybe they're hard-coded to try MTP, since modern firmwares on the e200 have that auto-detect feature that does UMS if it thinks the host can't do MTP?
23:31:47LloreanAre the VID/PID different in MTP mode?
23:31:48linuxstblibmtp is based on libgphoto I believe. At least, there are lots of ptp_* functions in there.
23:32:02rasherMystery solved.
23:32:08gevaertslunix151: exactly. I'd like to have mtp, but probably not enough to do the work myself...
23:34:09 Quit robin0800_ (Remote closed the connection)
23:34:10linuxstbLlorean: Yes, according to http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DeviceDetection
23:34:25 Quit nibbler (Remote closed the connection)
23:34:29linuxstbI don't know what it gives in that magic mode though...
23:35:43gevaertsI expect that this magic mode is just mtp with automatic disconnect and reconnect as msc if it doesn't get an mtp connection
23:45:57linuxstbSo the OF has "magic mode" and "UMS only mode" ?
23:46:28kugelYou can also chose mtp only
23:46:29 Quit DC1 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:46:29gevaertsI think so, yes
23:46:46kugelin which case it doesn't connect at all, if the host cannot do mtp
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23:47:11 Quit bertrik ("Leaving")
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23:48:15kugelsaratoga: had a look at my latest disable wps update patch?
23:48:50 Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
23:50:04rasheramiconn: Do we even need new bootloaders for the H10 - ie. does it boot Rockbox on usb plugin?
23:51:04 Quit Llorean (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:51:07rashergevaerts: Same question for the mrobe:100 - does the current bootloader need changing at all?
23:51:09kugelrasher: the one report says it boots the of
23:51:14lunix151well I just disabled the mtp plugin in banshee then created a .is_audio_player file on my sansa and its working great now
23:51:34rasherkugel: where?
23:51:50kugelrasher: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9955#comment28566
23:52:00gevaertsrasher: currently it goes straight to OF (ROM?) USB mode on startup if plugged in. Not sure if that's the rockbox bootloader or the OF
23:52:31rasherAh, missed that. Seems like some OF thing, but pre-rockbox?
23:52:43*rasher has little idea about the H10+
23:52:53gevaertsPossibly. I'm not entirely sure
23:53:41gevaertsAnyway I think it's good to check that the code still works :)
23:54:04rasherThis is true
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23:56:34*pixelma sees a weirdness in an H10 sim (the "small" one) - afte simulation turns off the backlight the first time and a button press there is a black rectangle at the bottom of the simulated screem
23:56:38pixelmascreen too
23:56:51amiconnThat seems to be an SDL bug
23:57:01amiconnkugel reported it for the e200 sim as well

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