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#rockbox log for 2009-03-18

00:00:06LloreanBagder: I think by "bus" they mean "when being transferred over USB"
00:00:12Bagderoh
00:00:15LloreanI'm assuming you perhaps mean the memory bus?
00:00:19BagderI do
00:00:25gevaertsI'm talking about the memory bus, yes
00:00:25cmwslwthat's impossible
00:00:32taylor_Reset ipod −−−−-> bootrom decrypts firmware at runtime −−−−> loads into RAM
00:00:35gevaertsthen inserting an FPGA also is
00:00:39LloreanOkay, now that everyone has their busses straight, onward.
00:00:58Bagdertaylor_: that's not what I'm talking about
00:01:00taylor_Either way, we need a way to dump runtime mem
00:01:03taylor_I know
00:01:08Bagderno you don't
00:01:12taylor_thats what 'I' am talking about
00:01:21taylor_Im not talking about BUS right now
00:01:24Bagder"loads into ram" is made how?
00:01:33gevaertsHow do you think the CPU talks to the RAM?
00:01:36soapstop saying "bus" - say __which_ bus.
00:01:51Bagderit "loads to ram" via a databus
00:01:56taylor_Ok, everyone step back a sec
00:02:09taylor_When you're on your ipod,
00:02:11*JdGordon|w jumps on the 545
00:02:11cmwslwI need to eat dinner
00:02:14cmwslwbe back soon
00:02:20taylor_everything is in memory
00:02:48bluebrotherhow can I be "on" my ipod?
00:02:51Lloreantaylor_: Trust me, we're quite familiar with the concept of both RAM, and firmware being in it.
00:03:09Lloreantaylor_: The point is, RAM is communicated with via something also called a "bus" though a different one than the one you seem to be referring to.
00:03:14LloreanUpon which, possibly, you should snoop.
00:03:46Bagderthat's how you do those things when you develop those devices
00:03:50taylor_Okay. Actually both would be useful to snoop
00:03:50LambdaCalculus37If I were *on* my iPod, I'd crush it.
00:03:53JdGordon|whang on... we have the datasheets for the ram, so in theory we could use a fpga to replicate the ram and get useful stuff from a run couldnt we?
00:04:03taylor_yes
00:04:11taylor_thats what david and TheSeven thought
00:04:22LloreanJdGordon|w: The point is, there's probably simpler ways.
00:04:30bluebrotherbut why an FPGA? You can simply capture the address and data lines
00:04:38bluebrothersame result, less hardware needed.
00:04:40taylor_BUS, RAM, FPGA, whatver. Any memory *dump* will be useful
00:04:53Bagderthat's my point too, bluebrother
00:05:06bluebrotherboot the ipod, disconnect data and address lines, read RAM from external uC
00:05:21taylor_ok
00:05:24bluebrotherBagder: :)
00:05:32taylor_do we have any of the needed hw for that?
00:06:02soapdo you have the needed soldering skills?
00:06:27bluebrotherdepending on that RAM: soldering iron, wrap wire, uC that has enough pins to talk to the RAM chip
00:06:58gevaertsthis is likely to be *small*
00:06:58Bagdera logic analyzer suitable for the bus speed
00:07:10taylor_and,
00:07:11Bagdervery very small
00:07:14bluebrotherthat'd a good thing too
00:07:18rasherIsn't it also encased in epoxy, or was that just a rumour?
00:07:38taylor_you might have to underclock the CPU to rid of any interference ?
00:07:41bluebrotherwhat package does the RAM chip come in? Hopefully not some BGA
00:07:52Bagderaren't they all? ;-)
00:07:57bluebrother:(
00:07:59JdGordon|wso what we really need is to get the guys at bletchly park back together and get them working on it?
00:08:08Bagderbut there are guys who work on detaching bgas...
00:08:23gevaertsJdGordon|w: no. They were good at *big* wires
00:08:45taylor_how have you guys hacked all the other mp3 players? Im sure at least one was harder than just REing the firmware
00:09:09Bagdertaylor_: most of them, yes
00:09:15JdGordon|wthe subset of us which actually hacked/RE'd the hardware is pretty damn small
00:10:25taylor_do we have any contractors who could do this ? :)
00:11:46krazykitwith enough money, i'm sure you can hire someone.
00:13:14taylor_soap? haha
00:14:42 Quit kugel (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:14:43Lloreantaylor_: typically Rockbox targets have been less "protected" than the later iPods, or significant vulnerabilities have been found that let us bypass any protection they do have.
00:15:07LambdaCalculus37And not every target is built the same.
00:18:05taylor_it would be a major breakthorugh to RE one of these guys
00:18:26 Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
00:18:32 Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection)
00:19:05cmwslwI wan't to get all the hardware straight, and then I will look at the software aspect
00:19:41rasherAnd a jailbroken iphone/ipod touch is still locked enough that it's useless in this aspect?
00:20:03cmwslwknowing the hardware can give us clues as to what changes apple has made and how they implemented the encryption system
00:20:12*JdGordon|w doesnt see the point wasing time on the hardware unless you know you can run code
00:21:03cmwslwwell not everything is visible in software, for example the utility flash and the bootrom
00:21:22taylor_JdGordon|w: Yes, but you mgiht need to hack the hw inorder to run code
00:22:01cmwslwwell a hardware hack seems somewhat barbaric
00:22:15soapthat is a "might", whereas a study of the firmware is a "for sure".
00:22:17JdGordon|wthats why its "hard"?
00:22:23Lloreancmwslw: What clues about the encryption do you expect to get from the hardware?
00:22:23cmwslwIf we can find out where the key is stored and how the firmware is decrypted
00:23:06taylor_well the key is most likely stored in the HW
00:23:12cmwslwwell, by finding out the exact processor that is used, we found that the new samsung processors have 50kB of embedded bootrom
00:23:13Lloreantaylor_: Everything is stored in the HW...
00:23:52JdGordon|wcmwslw: yeah, but thats 50kB of gobbledeegook...
00:24:04taylor_how do you knoiw?
00:24:14cmwslware you saying it's encrypted?
00:24:27taylor_I think hes saying its useless
00:24:30JdGordon|wa the very least its arm assembly
00:24:52LloreanAnd if you can't read it, it's useless. If you can read it, dumb it and you're back to "software work"
00:24:56JdGordon|wim not saying its useless... just that the key which might be what 8 bytes? is hidden there and t could be anywhere
00:24:58LloreanMost of the hardware is irrelevant.
00:25:12Llorean*dump, not dumb
00:25:22cmwslwwhat else would it be than arm assembly
00:25:36 Quit gevaerts (Nick collision from services.)
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00:25:47JdGordon|wat *some* point it will be data instead of code...
00:25:54bluebrotherrandom data to confuse hackers?
00:26:03JdGordon|wi dont know assembly, but how easy is it to figure out where the data starts?
00:26:11taylor_would they go all out like that?
00:26:16bluebrotherdata is bytes. Code is bytes.
00:26:26cmwslwwell the processor has to start executing valid code somewhere, and the bootrom is the only place left
00:26:34taylor_Apple has had more mistakes in the past, than it seems they are tricking
00:26:51taylor_we've already dumped one chip
00:26:54LloreanIt doesn't even have to necessarily be contiguous. The key could be scrambled. It could even be part of the "encrypted" image, just bytes inserted at certain known points.
00:26:58taylor_but thats the utility flash
00:27:20 Join fyrestorm [0] (n=fyre@cpe-68-173-234-168.nyc.res.rr.com)
00:27:21bluebrotherand what's this mystical utility flash thingy?
00:27:34taylor_it holds DIsk mode, diagnostics, etc
00:27:39cmwslwwell we know that the first byte of the bootrom can't be encrypted
00:27:42taylor_but thats also encrypted
00:27:54taylor_it could be
00:28:02bluebrothercmwslw: why has it to be the first byte?
00:28:06taylor_actually, we dont know anything until we look :)
00:28:17taylor_and we might not need to look there
00:28:17cmwslwbecause the processor has to start executing somewhere
00:28:35taylor_if Llorean is right, it could be somewhere in the image itself
00:28:36bluebrotherand you know it's starting at the first byte of that memory?
00:28:59taylor_but, if we go off of iphone knowledge, that would be innacuarate
00:29:09taylor_*inaccurate
00:29:10JdGordon|wif you can dump the bootrom it might be "easy" to figure out whats happening... it might not be
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00:29:29cmwslwmost likely, but even if it starts executing somewhere else in the bootrom, there still has to be valid ARM somewhere
00:29:38 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
00:29:41 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
00:29:42LloreanDoes AUPD get run no matter what, or is it AUPD *or* OSOS?
00:29:51JdGordon|wbluebrother: assuming the hardware doesnt do the decrytion then *some* known locatio has to be unencrypted arm assembly or the thing couldnt boot
00:29:54JdGordon|wusually 0x0
00:29:58taylor_osos is the "operating system"
00:30:02taylor_AUPT is the updater
00:30:07taylor_I mean AUPD
00:30:14bluebrotherJdGordon|w: sure, but "usually" doesn't mean it is 0x0 ;-)
00:30:21Lloreantaylor_: I thought AUPD might include bootloader.
00:31:19cmwslwdumping the bootrom would be next to impossible without the datasheets
00:31:29taylor_it could
00:31:41Lloreancmwslw: So if that's where the key is, do you have another plan?
00:31:52cmwslwand what guarantees that samsung even provides a way to read the bootrom
00:32:00 Join ender1 [0] (i=krneki@foo.eternallybored.org)
00:32:01 Part toffe82_
00:32:23bluebrothersounds to me similar to the boot0 thing of the wii
00:32:59JdGordon|wisnt that SOP? have some really simple logic to boot the proper loader then the actual code?
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00:33:18bluebrotherSOP?
00:33:29JdGordon|wstandard operating procedure
00:33:48bluebrotherah. I don't think so.
00:34:36bluebrotherwell, in some setups it might be. Possibly true for game consoles, ipods and the like :)
00:35:29taylor_I'll be back in a few
00:35:32JdGordon|wand computers
00:35:33*kugel thinks about committing FS #8523 within the next few days
00:35:48JdGordon|was long as you're only thinking about it
00:36:19 Quit jhMikeS (Nick collision from services.)
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00:36:31kugelhuh?
00:36:46JdGordon|wdw
00:36:57rasherJdGordon|w: Please use standard English words
00:37:27*bluebrother wonders if JdGordon|w is a vim user :)
00:37:35JdGordon|w:q!
00:37:41n1stalking about that bootrom thing, wouldn't the cpu *need* to be able to read it to be able to run code from it or am i missing something?
00:37:53taylor_Im talking to some guys on #ipodlinux right now. They are saying if someone could donate a nano or two(encrypted of course) they have the knowledge where they could "Almost certainly" get code running. Anyone for donations? ;)
00:37:55*bluebrother considers :wq in the next couple of minutes
00:38:39 Quit Seed ("cu, Andre")
00:38:43JdGordon|wn1s: yeah, so the logic is, if you can read the assembly from booting, you should be able to "boot" it on paper and figure out exactly what its doing
00:39:23n1sJdGordon: sounds sensible, and brings us back to square 1: we need to run custom code :)
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00:39:56Lloreann1s: Or dump the bootrom's contents from an external means.
00:40:15gevaertsgood luck with that
00:40:16n1sand pray for an opportunity to pull something like that hack where they dumped a camera firmware through a blinking led
00:40:22LloreanYes.
00:40:42rashern1s: or the ipod piezo hack
00:40:54n1srasher: i like the led more :)
00:41:06JdGordon|walthough that still doesnt help you getting your code back on the thing does it?
00:41:36 Quit JdGordon|w ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
00:42:04LloreanYeah, if it's an asymmetric key, we're still stuck unless there's a vulnerability.
00:42:06n1sthe theory is that if we have the code it runs we _should_ be able to find a flaw that can be exploited
00:42:39 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("mibbit.com: Falafel time!")
00:43:02 Quit CaptainKewl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:44:12rasherbluebrother: How did rbutil communicate with the theme site?
00:44:28bluebrotherrasher: via the rbutilqt.php script
00:44:38 Part Aurix_Lexico
00:45:02bluebrotherit returns an ini-style file that holds a key for each theme, name and download links.
00:45:28cmwslwwell we have the datasheet for the RAM chips, but not the processors
00:45:28bluebrotherthe script requests a specific resolution −− i.e. something like rbutilqt.php?res=160x128x2
00:45:39n1sI've read a bit about the various iphone/ipod touch hacks and the SoC's they use have hardware AES encryption. That suggests AES is used in the ipods too, and afaik AES is a symmetric crypto BUT there may also be signing :/
00:46:09cmwslwdisconnecting the databus and then reading would be feasible as long as the databus was on the outside of the pcb
00:46:17 Quit ender` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:46:28rasherbluebrother: Alright
00:46:39bluebrotherthere's also an error section that can be used for displaying issues. That's used currently by the theme site :)
00:46:42n1scmwslw: is the ram built into the SoC?
00:47:06 Quit miepchen^schla ()
00:47:44rasherbluebrother: anything you want to change about that?
00:47:49cmwslwn1s: only in the 4G nano
00:48:05cmwslwthe 2 and 3G nanos have an external RAM chip
00:48:27cmwslwso using that method is out of the question for the 4G
00:48:34n1sok, so theoretically that approach could work on the 2g and 3g
00:48:50bluebrotherkeys are size, descriptionfile, image, (author, version −− both unused by the old script), about, name
00:49:12cmwslwas long as the traces connecting the processor and the RAM were on the outside of the PCB
00:49:18cmwslwnot in one of the inner layers
00:49:24bluebrotherunless I've missed something from the sources. I have a rather old version of the original script somewhere, I could search for it tomorrow
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00:50:08rasherbluebrother: Looking at svn, that looks accurate.
00:50:24bluebrotherrasher: in general, no. It worked fine :) Using the author and version fields might be a good idea. Especially version −− if there is no version just use the timestamp of the theme upload
00:50:31cmwslwthe 3G looks like all the traces are exposed, but the soldering that would be required is insanity
00:50:53n1scmwslw: so do you have a planned approach for getting code running on them, you seemed quite confident and the summer is only a couple of months away ;)
00:51:24rasherbluebrother: Alright
00:52:08cmwslwno, but during the next 5 or 6 months, we can probably find a weakness and exploit it if we work hard
00:52:27bluebrotherif you want to expose further details about themes feel free to add them. We can support them later in rbutil, and having them around doesn't hurt :)
00:52:53bluebrothercu tomorrow −− gtg now
00:52:56 Quit bluebrother (":wq")
00:53:49n1scmwslw: so, there is a bunch of clueful hackers working on this over at linux4nano?
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00:54:43cmwslwnot really; interest has sort of died down
00:55:21cmwslwbut what if we were to hook up a fast, multiple channel oscilloscope to the data bus
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03:22:02cmwslwWell anyways, everyone be checking the linux4nano wiki if you are interested in the nano's hardware
03:22:34cmwslwI will probably be able to upload the annotations I've been working on tommorow
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04:22:02_MMA_Is a 75px .bmp still the default for cover support? I saw .bmp will be resized if there bit I want to support the largest size possible. 100x maybe?
04:22:36site_namei have 3rd gen can i run rockbox on it ?
04:23:17scorche|shrockbox runs of 3rd gen ipods fine....3rd gen nanos are something entirely different though
04:23:30_MMA_site_name: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ReleaseNotes31#Supported_players
04:23:42site_namethx
04:24:06scorche|sh_MMA_: you dont need to link that...it says right on the front page
04:24:12site_namehow do u mean entirely different ?
04:25:00scorche|shthe third gen ipod was released in 2003...
04:25:13site_nameand i was wondering is it hard to install ?
04:25:32scorche|shno it isnt...but it will be for your 3rd gen nano
04:25:48site_namewhy so ?
04:26:09scorche|shhave you looked at the front page?
04:26:25site_namea little
04:27:25site_nameim totally new to this while thing
04:27:36Unhelpful_MMA_: there is no "default" for album art, only whatever size your WPS theme uses
04:27:47site_namei was totally unaware of the whole ipod hax bit
04:28:12_MMA_Unhelpful: Gotcha.
04:28:45_MMA_Unhelpful: I pretty much got that idea but was hoping someone knew a common size.
04:29:42Unhelpfulyou can just use the largest size that will fit on your screen. i've never really been able to pick out scaling artifacts in the downscaler on the display of any targets i have. the upscaler is another matter, you can't create data from nothing, and it shows.
04:30:16_MMA_Unhelpful: Makes sense. Thanx.
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04:40:09site_namemine is a 4th gen ipod grey scale
04:40:21site_namesays it wont run on this ipod :(
04:41:21site_nameif it does not install can i just plug my ipod into itunes and repair it ?
04:41:35site_nameif i have a problem that is
04:41:43scorchewhere does it say it wont run on that?
04:42:03site_nameRockbox is an open source firmware for mp3 players, written from scratch. It runs on a wide range of players:
04:42:03site_name* Apple: 1st through 5.5th generation iPod, iPod Mini and 1st generation iPod Nano
04:42:03site_name(not the Shuffle, 2nd/3rd/4th gen Nano, Classic or Touch)
04:42:25scorcheyeah?
04:42:37scorcheyou said you ahve a 4th gen ipod...not a 4th gen nano...
04:42:48site_nameipod nano yes
04:42:56LloreanYou said ipod gray scale.
04:42:59LloreanNanos where always color
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04:43:02scorchenano isnt gray-scale
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04:43:35site_namewhen i select my ipod in rockbox thats what it is called
04:43:46site_namein the utility
04:43:48scorche...huh?
04:44:08site_nameohh nm
04:44:11site_namemy bad
04:44:37site_nameso ir will not run on my nano then right
04:44:49LloreanNo, it only runs on the ones listed at the site
04:45:02site_namedamn
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04:45:26site_nameguess ill have to repair my 20gig ipod
04:45:37site_namei htink it needs a new hdd ribbon
04:45:50site_nameeighter that or the mobo is fuxored
04:46:03site_namesad ipod face on it
04:46:11site_nameand i just bought a new hdd for it
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06:10:13jeffdameth1hello. is the restriction that rockbox doesnt work on v2 models only for e200 (i.e. not e280 etc). as the wiki is a bit unclear which models are supported exactly. if i hadnt looked in the battery lifetime page i wouldnt have known that the e2x0 models are also supported
06:11:32Unhelpfuljeffdameth1: no e2x0v2 models are supported at present.
06:11:58Lloreanjeffdameth1: "e200" is the name of the entire line. It means e250, e260, e270, e280
06:12:11LloreanEven Sandisk calls it "the e200 series"
06:12:48jeffdameth1ok, thanks. i see. still as there is one model with exactly that name one could think that not the family is meant
06:12:58LloreanThere is no model with the name "e200"
06:13:47jeffdameth1heh and i was searchin for it... http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330315299648
06:14:00LloreanEbay listers can type in whatever they want
06:14:08LloreanGo and check the Sandisk product pages and the archive.org histories of them.
06:14:22LloreanThere is no e200 product in terms of Sandisk's naming. Other people will call them whatever they feel like it.
06:14:39jeffdameth1sure
06:14:47LloreanSo then what was the point of the ebay link?
06:16:01jeffdameth1just to show that the normal joe who want to get a device that supports rockbox could think that he has to seach for e200 and find sth
06:16:18LloreanWe can't help that people are too lazy to actually know what they own.
06:17:06LloreanWe also can't name it according to every possible way people could misname it on ebay
06:17:13LloreanIt's called the "e200 series" on our site, which should be clear enough.
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06:20:14jeffdameth1hm nvm. was just a suggestion. i was looking for a device that is supported by rockbox and thought it might be misleading for others too
06:20:38LloreanPlease, don't use things like "nvm" and "sth" in here.
06:20:42LloreanThat's mentioned in the channel guidelines.
06:21:06LloreanI don't see what your suggestion is. We should replace "e200 series" with what exactly to be more clear?
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06:22:36jeffdameth1where can i find the term 'series' ?
06:22:43LloreanOn the front page.
06:22:52Llorean" Sansa c200, e200 and e200R series "
06:23:10LloreanConsidering there's no c200, e200, or e200R individual models, I think it's fairly clear.
06:23:20jeffdameth1ok i was looking in the wiki 'functional ports'
06:23:30jeffdameth1as i dont want to downlaod a firmware yet
06:23:35LloreanThe wiki is user-written documentation
06:23:37LloreanFeel free to correct it.
06:23:55LloreanBut next time, it's helpful to check the front page since we put the most important information there, being the page we expect everyone will go through.
06:24:09jeffdameth1ok alright
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09:29:09LloreanWhat license is convbdf under?
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09:33:55B4gderI'd say GPL has been assumed on by behalf at least
09:34:26Zagoras I remember he wrote it for rockbox so I'd assume gpl.
09:35:19B4gderyes he did
09:35:30LloreanOkay
09:35:38LloreanI just wasn't sure if it was "ours" or "something we got from somewhere"
09:35:49LloreanI assume if it's ours it falls under the project license unless specifically noted otherwise?
09:36:15B4gderyeah, although adding the standard header to the source code would be a good idea
09:36:22ZagorI agree
09:37:24LloreanI was really just looking to see if I could say "but you have to" to the "I've decided not to post it" source code on the forum.
09:38:05LloreanThough it might be good enough to quickly see which of our files outside of /codecs and /plugins don't have the header.
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12:01:18midgeyrasher: seems the latest patch of the itunes work still annoys OS X
12:01:42midgeyfinder is stuck trying to identify it
12:01:45rasherBlast
12:02:12midgeyit's now opening itunes
12:02:26midgeywell attempting to at least
12:02:54*rasher thinks gevaerts needs to get an iTunes install at home
12:03:15midgeyheh, looks like it's caused some massive kernel issues
12:03:23midgeyeverything is acting up
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12:04:14rasheriTunes did act a bit weird a few times, but I didn't know if that was just normal iTunes behaviour :)
12:04:51midgeywith itunes open, the whole thing seizes up a bit less
12:05:11midgeybut a hard remove is needed to get the computer responsive again
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12:05:33midgeyi get the "An iPod has been detected..." error
12:05:45midgeyi'll have to do some logfs
12:06:31midgeylast time i'm pretty sure the itune scsi inquiries never happened during the time it was plugged in
12:07:01midgeyi'll try leaving it plugged in for 10 min and seeing if itunes every recovers
12:07:26rasherYeah, I was going to ask what happened if you just wait it out
12:09:23midgeywell i can tell you this, applications slowly start failing and seizing up
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12:15:57midgeyok, i gave up
12:16:09midgeynothing happened differently
12:16:16midgeyall applications slowly died
12:17:04midgeyquite a robust way of handling usb devices....
12:25:18rasherThat sounds awful
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13:01:11salty-horseLlorean, hi. I checked official nightly builds like you suggested, and the text editor still doesn't parse unix-style newlines correctly. should I file a bug?
13:15:10salty-horseis there some up-to-date documentation (wiki, mailing list, bug) about the current state of usb handling on the sansa e200? I notice it doesn't restart the device when I plug a usb. is it charging effectively? trying to mount?
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13:16:08n1ssalty-horse: rockbox's native usb mode is enabled in current builds so it shouls connect to your computer without a reboot
13:16:45salty-horsen1s, thanks. how about recharging? is it as efficient as the original firmware?
13:17:17n1ssalty-horse: it should work but i don't know how it compares to the OF
13:17:30salty-horse(I asked about the connection because I have some problems with mounting on ubuntu.. hard to know what behavior to expect :)
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13:17:45salty-horsen1s, ok
13:17:47salty-horsethanks
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14:24:23gevaertsrobin0800_: can you clarify your comment to FS #9955 a bit? I have no idea what it means...
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14:58:03unconcan someone suggest hardware to purchase (for a relatively low price) that will run Rockbox well?
14:59:27LambdaCalculus37http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/BuyersGuide
14:59:56LambdaCalculus37uncon: People's opinions vary, so you have to shop around and decide exactly what it is you're looking for, and how much you're willing to spend.
15:00
15:01:09LambdaCalculus37It also depends on what's available in your location in the world.
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15:05:12unconLambdaCalculus37: thanks for the link, that would help a lot
15:05:30unconi was looking for something like that but found the IRC link first (:
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15:06:44LambdaCalculus37uncon: With that being said, I personally prefer my Gigabeast, Sansa e280, and iriver H340 as my "main" players.
15:07:09uncongeez
15:07:10LambdaCalculus37But it's up to you to find out what "works" for you.
15:08:01unconall i want is a decent player that will hold 40+ GB and not require crappy software (iTunes)...
15:08:06LambdaCalculus37uncon: And don't be surprised... a lot of developers here have multiple targets. Makes testing and coding easier. :)
15:08:18unconi can imagine
15:09:58LambdaCalculus37uncon: Then if you can find something like a Gigabeat F60, that may fit the bill.
15:10:54LambdaCalculus37An iriver H340 is also a nice player as well. It also gives you FM radio and recording.
15:11:31unconi'll never use FM or recording...
15:11:41unconbut, they won't hurt me
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15:12:33unconlooks like i might get a little better batt life out of the iriver
15:12:34LambdaCalculus37The Gigabeat F lacks FM radio and recording... just a straight-up music/video player.
15:13:18BigBambi_uncon: relativly low price doesn't include the irivers (h100/h300)
15:13:47LambdaCalculus37uncon: BigBambi_'s right. Expect to pay a pretty penny for one on eBay.
15:14:00BigBambi_uncon: They are highly sought after owing to their great (esp h100) recording capabilities
15:14:21unconah...
15:14:48unconand, it's 40GB instead of 60
15:15:01LambdaCalculus37uncon: But the hard drive is easily swappable.
15:15:09uncon2.5"?
15:15:13BigBambi_LambdaCalculus37: Which adds to the price
15:15:14unconor 1?
15:15:14LambdaCalculus371.8".
15:15:18uncon*nod*
15:15:21BigBambi_uncon: 1.8"
15:15:31LambdaCalculus37uncon: 1" would be a Microdrive.
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15:16:18LambdaCalculus37And in terms of Rockbox targets, only the Archos devices used 2.5" drives.
15:16:22BigBambi_uncon: If you want 60GB natively then you want a gigabeat F60, X60 (much rarer), or S60 (not yet supported but close, battery life is poor at the moment) or an ipod 5.5G 80 GB (not classic)
15:16:53unconf60 doesn't seem to be prolific
15:17:03LambdaCalculus37BigBambi_: The X60 is damn near impossible to get ahold of unless you live in Asia or Oz, or are toffe82. ;)
15:17:14BigBambi_uncon: Not so much as the F40, no
15:17:18BigBambi_LambdaCalculus37: indeed
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15:18:09uncons60 is easy to get (:
15:18:21unconman, $41
15:19:19BigBambi_uncon: I like the S60 (it is the one I use day-to-day), and it is not quite but nearly supported. The main draw back is the battery life (around 6 hours IIRC). This may well improve, but it is really impossible to ay until it actually does
15:19:32BigBambi_*say
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15:19:46unconwhat's the stock battery life?
15:19:58BigBambi_Not much more
15:20:10LambdaCalculus37BigBambi_: IIRC about 10 hours.
15:20:13BigBambi_But it runs Windows mobile stock and is MTP only
15:20:26BigBambi_LambdaCalculus37: That's what they claim.... :)
15:21:46LambdaCalculus37BigBambi_: I think the last couple of hurdles to overcome on the beast port are the battery life, writing beastpatcher, and (not sure on this one) getting a single-boot bootloader to work.
15:21:58LambdaCalculus37Can anyone confirm this?
15:22:15BigBambi_LambdaCalculus37: Single boot to work reliably - it works fine and always has done for me
15:22:30BigBambi_Battery life doesn't affect supported status anyway
15:22:37LambdaCalculus37True.
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15:22:55LambdaCalculus37Some of the other targets had lousy battery life and are still considered "supported".
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15:23:28wodzHello, can I ask for Wiki write permission? My account is MarcinBukat. I would like to add some information for MPIO HD200 player page.
15:24:02LambdaCalculus37wodz: Hang tight.
15:24:06*LambdaCalculus37 goes to add
15:25:18LambdaCalculus37wodz: All done. Promise not to spam, now! :)
15:25:28wodzI promis
15:25:30unconso, if i can get a gigabeat f40, the drive is easily replacable and the remaining hardware is the same?
15:26:01LambdaCalculus37uncon: Yep.
15:26:19BigBambiuncon: Yeah, but due to the interface it uses you will only get up to 60 or 80 GB (and the 80 is very rare and expensive)
15:26:36unconstandard 1.8"?
15:26:47LambdaCalculus37uncon: Standard 50-pin connector.
15:28:51BigBambiuncon: there is a wiki page called HarddriveReplacement or something similar
15:28:54gevaertsuncon: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HardDriveReplacement has detailed info
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15:33:14unconthanks guys, for your help
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15:57:52*kugel grumbles at FS #10031
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16:28:57jaykayhow is the battery % read? or is it more "reported"?
16:29:33jaykaybecause i noticed its updated in the wps every ~0,5 sec
16:30:11jaykaychanging this to ~30sec would maybe free some cpu cycles or do some other good things :)
16:30:47rasherI'd be quite surprised if that takes any significant amount of resources
16:31:30jaykayit wouldnt need to be significant
16:31:57jaykayanyway, i'm not going to prepare a patch or ask for this change, i was just curious
16:33:18rasherTurning off accuracy would need to provide some kind of benefit
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16:34:40jaykayi think it would be more accurate - when changing from one % to another it often switches back and forth
16:34:51jaykaythat would be "solved"
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16:56:48LambdaCalculus37I was wondering about something... the new default iconset is from the Tango icon library, so why don't we use those new icons to depict file format icons in the manual?
17:00
17:01:33rasherThat's a good question indeed.
17:08:01kugelrasher, Llorean: fixing FS #10031 means using tolower instead of toupper (rather simple fix), but that also means going away a bit from the original algorithm
17:09:25gevaertsWhy does the original algorithm even matter?
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17:10:19LambdaCalculus37rasher: Indeed. I was wondering why we're still using the old charcell-like icons.
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18:05:11oboBagder: the last entry (Onda VX767) in the binsize delta chart is missing its title="...", so no hover info
18:07:07oboand the e200v2 seems to be in the wrong place?
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18:38:59scorche|shBagder: around?
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18:44:32*scorche|sh notes that GSoC org acceptance emails are going out early this year...now
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18:46:10*linuxstb sees http://code.google.com/soc/2009/ doesn't exist yet...
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18:57:55mikeypizanowhat is going on with the v2 sansas?
18:58:21mikeypizanois it being worked on or abadoned?
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19:00
19:00:16evilnickmikeypizano: The Rockbox forum thread will have the most up-to-date info
19:00:38mikeypizanook, any idea if you guys will start doing sony players
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19:00:51LambdaCalculus37When someone starts working on them.
19:01:02LambdaCalculus37We don't schedule anything.
19:01:12mikeypizanooh ok
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19:02:02scorche|shBagder: ping
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19:10:31scorche|shRockbox will be participating in GSoC again this year =)
19:10:55kugel\o/
19:11:39gevaertsGreat!
19:12:25scorche|shinterested rockbox devs, etc can feel free to join #rockbox-gsoc
19:13:22LambdaCalculus37Nice!
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19:17:49moos"Jamais deux sans trois" like we say in french. Very nice!
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19:18:07moos "Things always happen in threes" doesn't sound very nice ;)
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19:23:48*scorche|sh summons Bagder - there is work to be done!
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19:25:26Lloreankugel: I'm not sure what the problem is with _s sorting after text instead of before it?
19:25:42LloreanIt's a different algorithm, and things can be in different places. If the PC-version sorts it that way too, what's the problem?
19:26:43BigBambiscorche|sh: good news
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19:40:12scorche|shBagder: time to update news on front page?
19:40:30Bagderyes indeed, we should also mail the lists
19:40:44scorche|shyup
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19:50:57kugelLlorean: after. with ascii-sorting it's before
19:51:17Lloreankugel: I know. What's wrong with that?
19:51:23LloreanPlenty of other things are in different places from ascii sorting too.
19:52:00kugelit's advertised for numbers, having _* differently sorted is unexpected. the fix is trivial
19:54:08LloreanWell, I tend to think either we're preserving the original algorithm, or we should try to fix _all_ the problems.
19:55:52kugelthe algorithm isn't really touched (the to_int() touched it way more). it's changing toupper to tolower. I'd rather be consistent within rockbox for non-numbers if the fix is this easy.
19:56:56kugelAnd I tend to say that the original algorithm needs to be fixed in this case, as from what I've seen most standard-implementations of any str[..]cmp function uses tolower
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19:57:50LloreanIf you're changing our sort results to not match theirs, I can't really see how you say "the algorithm isn't touched"
19:58:10LloreanI'm just saying we should either match their results, or admit that we want to change things and work on fixing more things.
19:58:28LloreanWe can't use "well that's the way they do it" as an excuse if we're going to go changing things too.
19:59:06kugeltrue
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20:01:54kugelLlorean: but as I said, I'm personally not against fixing other issues we had yesterday, just that I didn't care enough about those (which is why I agreed to the consensus). But this I care about this one
20:02:44kugelsince we basically lie to the user with the naming of the option, and the manual description
20:02:54LloreanMaybe you should post to -dev about whether we should make the algorithm our own, or stick with the original (and in what way we should resolve some of those issues from yesterday)
20:03:12LloreanThe name and manual description can be changed... it's not like the *only* option is to change how _ is sorted.
20:03:21gevaertsLlorean: is there a real reason for keeping the algorithm?
20:03:37Lloreangevaerts: Not really. It was just used as a justification yesterday for another decision they made.
20:03:37kugeleverthing between upper- and lowercases in the ascii is sorted differently
20:04:15Lloreangevaerts: My point is we should decide which way we're going with it, rather than using it as reasoning for one thing, then throwing it out for other things.
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20:04:22*gevaerts thinks that "but someone else does it this way" can never be a justification for a decision
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20:05:01Lloreangevaerts: Well, there is *some* benefit (in terms of sorting) for our lists to show up in the same order lists in other FLOSS software does. If we don't, people will think *we* have a bug, if it's a widely used algorithm
20:05:10Lloreangevaerts: Unfortunately, I don't know if ours is even used in other software.
20:05:31kugelLlorean: I'm willing to throw it out again. I agree that it's a weak justification, merely enough to justify 1 or 2 issues
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20:06:06Lloreankugel: As i said, why not bring up on -dev the question whether we want to pick a sorting method other software uses, or come up with our own custom one.
20:06:17gevaertsLlorean: ok, all else being equal it can be a reason for things, but all else really has to be equal IMHO
20:06:22LloreanInstead of trying to depend on small groups to decide this, so that it can be argued differently depending on who's around at the time.
20:06:45Lloreangevaerts: Well, "all else" is "ASCII sort does it differently" right now, but of course it does. And our ASCII sort matches ASCII sort anyway.
20:07:01LloreanSo I'm not too sure *that's* a huge argument either.
20:07:46kugelLlorean: I don't think need the ml. We already customized code when it was commited
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20:09:01kugeland even more later. I don't think there's need for a discussion again. most devs hardly care anyway (or they disagree with the sorting at all)
20:09:30Lloreankugel: And then we un-customized it.
20:09:34LloreanIt's clear there's more than one opinion on this
20:09:49LloreanWhy do you always try to avoid having things actually be _discussed_ before you do something?
20:10:13LloreanIs this really so urgent that it can't wait a couple days for responses about it?
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20:14:24jaykayJdGordon|w: i found a statusbar bug... it is shown earlier than the menu wenn a playlist ends
20:14:34jaykayshould i write a bug report?
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20:25:10kugelLlorean: sorry I had a disc
20:25:39kugelLlorean: "Why do you always try to avoid having things actually be _discussed_ before you do something?" this is not true
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20:26:31Lloreankugel: It seems _nearly_ every time I've suggested you take something to -dev you've not wanted to.
20:27:14kugelThen your memory is wrong
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20:29:31Lloreankugel: You've started eight threads on the ML in the last year. How many of those were based on my suggesting you do it, then?
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20:31:47kugelLlorean: is this about how often I followed your suggestion, or whether I avoid discussions?
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20:32:42Lloreankugel: This is about how you reject the idea of taking the discussion to -dev for further input before doing it.
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20:35:07kugelLlorean: So, uncostumizing doesn't need ml discussion, but costumizing again needs?
20:35:10Lloreankugel: Your opinion on this idea yesterday was one thing. Today you want to commit a change to behaviour contradictory with *why* we changed it yesterday. And when the idea of discussing it with the very people you discussed it with yesterday comes up, you say "No, I don't think we need to."
20:35:30LloreanYou're framing it falsely.
20:35:37kugelAnd I don't reject to avoid the discussion (I wouldn't even say I rejected the idea), but I really don't think this will yield anything
20:35:48LloreanI suggested -dev as a *way* to make sure you contact the same people who discussed uncustomizing it yesterday
20:35:48gevaertskugel: customising :)
20:36:02Lloreankugel: If it won't change anything, why are you against it?
20:36:15salty-horseLlorean, seen my message earlier?
20:36:22kugelLlorean: I asked you what to do, I never said I'm going to commit
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20:37:33Lloreankugel: I'm sorry, what part of "I'm willing to throw it out again" and "I don't think we need the ML" is supposed to suggest to me that you want to wait for further input?
20:37:37scorche|shthose who are willing, please feel free to request to be a mentor for GSoC
20:37:38Lloreansalty-horse: Yes, a bug would be good.
20:37:44salty-horseok
20:38:17kugelLlorean: the fact that I asked you and rasher before doing anything. And that I didn't do anything about it yet
20:38:19Lloreanscorche|sh: Where?
20:38:39scorche|shhttp://socghop.appspot.com
20:38:42scorche|shas the wiki says
20:38:48Lloreankugel: both those lines came *after* discussing it with me.
20:38:57Lloreankugel: You even said you don't think there's need for discussion again. Clearly. In those words.
20:39:02BigBambiscorche: willing and able perhaps :)
20:39:08*MT wonders if anyone is free to help review his student application
20:39:27kugelLlorean: because either people don't care enough or are against the sorting; not because it's bad or something
20:40:08Lloreankugel: So which is it. Do you want discussion, or do you think there's not need for discussion?
20:40:22LloreanBecause you've now given me two messages.
20:40:37kugelI want discussion with those which are interested in this topic. and this are the people I asked here today
20:40:41JdGordon|wjaykay: if you tihnk it should be fixed... yes
20:41:00BigBambiMT: I imagine so - would you prefer it to be private? If so, then if you say what it is about generally then interested people can speak, or if not then just paste a link :)
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20:41:14BigBambikugel: Are you sure?
20:41:18kugelJdGordon|w: I think gwps_leave_wps() should be after the fade_on_stop line
20:41:29Lloreankugel: So, you don't care if anyone else is interested, at all? Just want discussion from the people you get to pick and choose?
20:41:40BigBambikugel: Why not post, then if it is only the three of you it doesn't matter, but if there are more interested they get the chance
20:41:54JdGordon|wkugel: thats code you added....
20:42:00kugelright
20:42:14kugelbut I have fade on stop turned off for a while, so I didn't notice :(
20:42:21MTBigBambi : it's about adding support for RM (is it okay to propose for ideas not on the list? )
20:42:35kugelJdGordon|w: oh, and no, the viewport_set_statusbar was before that line too before my change
20:42:45scorche|shMT: most certainly!
20:42:50BigBambiMT: Certainly
20:43:03gevaertsMT: sure. All ideas are welcome, although of course at this point we won't guarantee anything yet
20:43:15scorche|shas it says on the wiki page.. "Add your suggested projects here to be reviewed by the applying students. These are only ideas and suggestions, students are free to make up and describe their own project when they apply. If you are a student planning on applying, please come into our IRC channel on FreeNode and talk to us about it! "
20:43:54MTscorche : I don't know why I haven't noticed this before :) , thanks.
20:44:16kugelLlorean: just asking, but you could do that as well, right? It probably seems that I'm the maintainer of this sorting now, so I can understand that I'm in the duty of starting discussions about it
20:44:40kugelJdGordon|w: i.e. not my bug
20:44:49Lloreankugel: If you want to change it, it's more or less your duty to start the discussion of the change you propose.
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20:45:34kugelsame happened yesterday, I wonder why you didn't propose ml discussion yesterday
20:46:29kugelbut fine, I'm surely not against getting opinions, my doubts about what the mail will yield, shouldn't be an excuse for not doing it
20:46:31MTHere's a link to my application : http://pastebin.com/f535bf301
20:47:44kugeljaykay: can you see if that helps? moving gwps_leave_wps() in the exit section of the main loop down a bit?
20:47:54Lloreankugel: Yesterday we didn't have a reason for doing anything. We were just clearing up sorting. Then we picked a reason in discussion. Today, you propose to throw out that reason with minimal discussion. That seems a good cause to take it to the ML to me.
20:48:14jaykaykugel: i dont know nothing of anything there, please with a file and line :)
20:48:22jaykay*dont know anything
20:49:12kugeljaykay: http://pastie.org/420128
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20:50:13kugelLlorean: we changed sorting behavior rather heavily yesterday, I think
20:50:25kugelor I did, rather, but we discussed it
20:52:52Lloreankugel: And now you're proposing to change it back with _less_ discussion. The amount of discussion needed tends to increase over time, not decrease. Especially if we give a _reason_ why we made a change, and you then want to throw that reason out for future changes.
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20:53:14*kugel would actually like to ask the author of strnatcmp for his reasons to chose toupper, instead of tolower which is apparently more common
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20:56:21domonokyMT: looking good. but maybe 1 week for fixed point conversion might be a bit short :-)
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20:57:21jaykaykugel: now its perfect i think, but it seems that showing of the menu (+statusbar) is further delayed
20:57:44jaykay~1sec after the music stops
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20:57:54MTdomonoky : how long would be reasonable then in your opinion ?
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20:59:33midgeyMT: s/availble/available/ in 2.1
20:59:57domonokyMT: i am not sure, i dont know all technical details of this. But i would expect that to be a major task, unless you are already pretty familiar in this conversion thing :-)
20:59:57bluebrotherMT: nice. Though I agree with domonoky about the estimated time for fixed point conversion, and I also was wondering what amount of time 1 week should be −− a full time week (i.e. ~40h) or a semi-time week (as you wrote during your exams)? Maybe a slight explanation of that unit would be good.
21:00
21:00:27kugeljaykay: further delayed? I don't think it's caused by this patch
21:00:48kugelalso, turn of fade on stop to see the real delay
21:00:55jaykaykugel: i'll compare it now with a current build
21:01:13gevaertsMT: I guess people who've done this before can tell you best there :)
21:01:21midgeyMT: you can ask saratoga. He ported the WMA codec to fixed point so he can probably give a good estimate of time involved
21:01:54gevaertssaratoga: funman mailed me to say that the cable has arrived
21:02:02kugeland he already broke it
21:02:12midgeygevaerts: you said you had an idea about why mac hates the itunes patch
21:03:51MTmidgey : Thanks :)
21:04:36MTbluebrother : 1 week = 1 full-time week , I'll make that clear in the application.
21:06:24MTgavaerts, domonoky : thanks. And no I'm not that familiar , I have basic knowledge, so I think I'll wait for saratoga as midgey said.
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21:06:48jaykaykugel: it seems like before the change the statusbar was shown immediately after the music stops, the menu ~1s later. now both the statusbar and the menu are shown ~1sec after the music stops
21:06:53jaykayi hope that helps
21:07:26kugelso it's not delayed more. the statusbar draw is just sync'd
21:07:35gevaertsmidgey: yes. It tries reading too much, after which the ipod stalls the endpoint. I'm not sure at all if rockbox handles that the same way (most probably not)
21:08:10gevaertsI need to play around with it a bit to get it right I guess. I should be able to get a mac with itunes for the weekend
21:08:46midgeysounds good
21:09:03midgeywhat the current belief about handling the xml data?
21:09:09midgeyload it from disk?
21:09:10gevaertsmidgey: what version of macos do you have?
21:09:20midgey10.5.6
21:09:20jaykaykugel: i guess its not really a bug that they are shown a second too late
21:09:22jaykay?
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21:14:41gevaertsmidgey: loading from disk won't save any ramsize I think, because the way the code works currently means that the MSC driver only gets called *after* rockbox has unmounted the disk
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21:15:30gevaertsThat means it either has the filesystem but not the audio buffer yet, or the audio buffer but not the filesystem
21:15:42midgeyyou can't bring the file to memory when rockbox detects a connect?
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21:17:33midgeyalso different models have different xml files, do we care or do we just want a unified one for rockbox targets?
21:17:34gevaertsno. That would mean stopping audio playback, and we don't know yet at that point whether that's needed. We could rearrange the code of course, but that needs a lot more thinking. This is a tricky thing to get right
21:17:52midgeyah, makes sense
21:18:47gevaertsI think that if we're going to really support talking to itunes, we should do it properly, e.g. expose rockbox capabilities, not the OF ones
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21:23:59linuxstbgevaerts: Wouldn't users expect it to work the same as in the OF though? e.g. ipod video users would probably want to sync videos, and I know if I was such a user, I would want to be able to do it from Rockbox.
21:24:57gevaertslinuxstb: doing that properly means knowing which version of the OF is installed, and knowing what various versions can do I think
21:25:28linuxstbI'm not saying it's easy ;)
21:26:28gevaertslet's make a deal. I work on getting the data to itunes, someone else works on getting the actual data right :)
21:27:26jaykaya question regarding the battery_bench plugin: it does log infos every minute and writes them down every hour or when the disk is accessed, right?
21:27:42jaykayfor flash targets it does write the infos every minute
21:29:43bertrikjaykay, the battery bench in principle writes it buffer in the ata_idle_callback, so right after other things accessed the disk
21:30:40bertrikso it tries to piggyback on other disk accesses to avoid skewing the bench by having to spin up a disk
21:30:54jaykaybertrik: does it buffer the infos on flash targets too or does it write them directly?
21:32:21bertrikyes it should buffer on flash targets too, the battery bench code by itself doesn't distinguish between flash or disk
21:33:03Lloreangevaerts: I think we should have an option "iTunes Compatibility - " "Rockbox, Rockbox + Original Firmware, Original Firmware Only"
21:34:24gevaertsmaybe, if it isn't too expensive
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21:35:19jaykaybertrik: are data which are supposed to be written in general buffered or does only battery bench do this?
21:35:30Lloreangevaerts: I can't imagine it being very much more expensive than a hardcoded single list if it's done right.
21:35:58gevaertsLlorean: probably. We'll have to see
21:36:07bertrikjaykay, I don't know if it happens in general, but I don't think so, maybe only on the level of a single disk block
21:36:18LloreanIf it came down to it, though, I'd prefer we chose to reveal Rockbox's features rather than the OFs if we can only pick one
21:36:33LloreanIf they're using the OF, they can dual boot to sync still, so we should design it around what *we* can do.
21:36:47bertrikthe buffering in battery bench was explicitly added to keep the number of extra disk/flash accesses low
21:37:58bertrikthe buffer is also flushed to disk when it it about to go full (takes several hours without other disk access IIRC) and when the plugin is exited
21:38:37jaykayanother question: what does "(every measurement is captured when the voltage changes)" (from the manual) mean?
21:38:39jaykaymaybe im the only one who dont understand this, but i think its wrong or not clear
21:39:02bertrikjaykay, I think the manual may be outdated
21:39:19jaykayim thinking that too
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22:04:10jaykayBigBambi: did you already have your shufti?
22:04:51BigBambijaykay: I am doing now - I'm rewriting the whole thing as it needs it (battery benchmark manual entry)
22:05:59jaykaymay i have a look at it or will you commit it soon? (not for correcting but just for seeing it before it gets committed :)]
22:06:20BigBambijaykay: Depends how long it takes :)
22:06:29BigBambiI'll let you know
22:06:47jaykayok thanks
22:10:39pixelmathe menu showing a bit later than the statusbar when leaving the WPS (everytime, not only when playlist ends) is more a menu drawing bug in my eyes... before the statusbar work some time ago, it was the other way round though
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22:20:09BigBambiSo, for battery benchmark - given that data are written once per minute, is it possible for it to run out of memory and overwrite previous values before it flushes to disk?
22:20:39jaykayBigBambi: that could happen after some hours, but iirc it write data every hour
22:20:46jaykayor if the buffer is full
22:21:22BigBambiyes, it writes every hour
22:21:36jaykayso the buffer cant get full
22:21:56BigBambiMy point is that if it only does measurements once a minute, and writes at least once an hour, the data should be very predictable, so it should never need to overflow
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22:23:26jaykayBigBambi: what do you mean by very predictable?
22:24:01BigBambijaykay: In that we know in advance the maximum amount of data that should ever need to be held in memory
22:24:26jaykayok
22:24:38jaykayso overflowing isnt possible
22:25:13BigBambiI don't know, that's what I'm asking. It shouldn't need to be possible, but I don't know how battery bench works currently
22:25:33LloreanBigBambi: If it can overflow, at least that should be a fixable bug.
22:25:56BigBambiLlorean: yes, indeed
22:26:32BigBambiLlorean: I'm debating whether to remove the if it overflows old points are discarded and the log file mentions it bit of the manual
22:27:09BigBambiLlorean: I'm thinking of low mem targets here - if the plugin buffer isn't big enough, has battery bench been adjusted to flush more often
22:27:12linuxstbDoes the plugin spin the disk up itself, or wait until the next spinup caused by buffering (or the user doing something)?
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22:27:40BigBambilinuxstb: It waits, or does it itself once an hour
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22:28:03linuxstbBigBambi: So it writes at every spinup, or after an hour, whichever comes first?
22:28:11BigBambiIf an hour has passed since the last spin up that is
22:28:27linuxstbOK, so it should just need an array of 60 log entries...
22:28:44BigBambilinuxstb: Yes - at every spin up, or if a spin up hasn't occurred for an hour it does it itself
22:28:50BigBambilinuxstb: yes, exactly
22:29:09BigBambilinuxstb: That's what I meant by predictable :)
22:29:31*linuxstb isn't sure what the question is/was...
22:29:50oboBagder: do you have a list of the other "magic words" in the mi4 file format?
22:30:18Bagderobo: I think sansapatcher is the best resource for that, or mi4code.c
22:30:29BigBambilinuxstb: So, the question was, on low mem targets it may (I haven't checked) not be possible to fit all sixty points in the buffer, so it needs to write to disk more often. Has it been adjusted to do this?
22:30:38oboBagder: okay, will have a dig
22:30:57Bagderobo: as I recall it, they are two or three different ones
22:31:09BigBambilinuxstb: All this is comming from me not knowing just how clever battery bench is :)
22:31:29linuxstbBigBambi: Looking quickly at the source, it always uses a 16000 byte buffer, which the comments say is big enough for 16 hours of monitoring without saving...
22:31:47linuxstbAnd when those 16 hours are up, it will force a flush.
22:31:57BigBambilinuxstb: OK, so it should all be hunky-dory :)
22:32:18BigBambilinuxstb: Ah, so it isn't every hour after all
22:32:21linuxstbWhere did your "one hour" come from?
22:33:00BigBambiWhat had been previously said (in here I think)
22:33:15BigBambilinuxstb: But it wasn't gospel :)
22:34:03linuxstbI think bertrik made the last functional change - r18281
22:34:09jaykaythe manual and the wiki said it writes data down every disk activity or every hour
22:34:24linuxstbThat may be when it changed to "> 16 hours"
22:34:36*linuxstb assume bertrik will know...
22:34:49*linuxstb assumes...
22:34:59BigBambiWell if that is what the source says then that is cool - I'll update the manual to say that
22:35:25linuxstbI've only quickly glanced at the source though, perhaps wait for bertrik to confirm.
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22:36:21BigBambilinuxstb: looking at the logs, he did confirm it earlier
22:36:40BigBambilinuxstb: <bertrik> the buffer is also flushed to disk when it it about to go full (takes several hours without other disk access IIRC) and when the plugin is exited
22:37:00BigBambilinuxstb: Sorry, I missed that before in skimming them
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22:49:39gevaertsI've just been thinking about so-called natural sorting of underscores. I think they should be treated exactly the same as spaces, as I believe that this is what they're usually used for.
22:49:42Bagderrasher: seen that red?
22:50:40Lloreangevaerts: So an underscore is equal to a space except in cases where a space and an underscore must be compared and the rest of the string is identical?
22:50:46gevaertsLlorean: yes
22:51:05LloreanThat'd be consistent with at least the way some applications I've seen sort things.
22:51:18*Llorean would really like to know if there's a "standard" natural sorting algorithm for file browsers etc.
22:51:21MTsaratoga : ping
22:51:44gevaertsThe only other semi-common reason for underscores I can think of is trying to get things sorted the way you want them. In that case I think you should just use ascii sorting
22:52:25rasherBagder: what?
22:52:39Bagderrasher: http://build.rockbox.org/showlog.cgi?date=20090318T213356Z&type=Toshiba%20Gigabeat%20S%20-%20Simulator
22:52:53Bagdersomething fishy
22:53:33rasherOdd
22:56:29bluebrotherchanging the meaning of _ when sorting goes beyond the scope of "recognize number" though
22:57:03MTlinuxstb : could I have your opinion on my gsoc application ? (http://pastebin.com/f3689cfe6)
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22:57:35rasherThat option should never have been named anything related to numbers :\
22:57:57gevaertstrue.
22:58:07*gevaerts votes for "so-called natural sorting"
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23:02:58Lloreanrasher: I suggested the name thinking it only affected numbers.
23:04:20Lloreangevaerts: Maybe just "Interpreted Sorting"
23:04:33LloreanOr "Complex Sorting" or "Intelligent Sorting"
23:04:36Bagder"another sort" ;-)
23:04:42BigBambiI have to say, I assumed that it would just change the order of e.g. 1,12,2 to 1,2,12 and not anything else
23:04:43LloreanSome sort of term that hints at what it does, without actually *meaning* anything realistic.
23:04:59domonokyRockbox Sort :-)
23:05:03gevaerts"Hard to explain sorting"
23:05:15LloreanBigBambi: I knew it was ignoring leading zeros, but I still think that aspect of it is bad. I'd rather it attempt to interpret the meaning of the digits that are there, without throwing away anything intentionally typed.
23:05:34LloreanI still prefer, at this point, finding out if there's a "common" algorithm in use out there, and just matching it.
23:05:45LloreanIf our file browser shows the same list as their file browser, we're less likely to get bug reports (I think)
23:07:13JdGordon|wonce again... the *only* way to get around the constant arguing is to provide a simple scripting mechanism so the user can choose his own sorting rules
23:07:51gevaertsLlorean: I wouldn't be too surprised if desktop file managers use locale dependent sorting anyway
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23:08:04JdGordon|wi would be surprised if they didnt
23:08:17BagderJdGordon|w: yeah, as then we can argue about how the scripting would work...
23:08:47rashergevaerts: still, some bits are more universal
23:08:48JdGordon|wwell thats more technical so not as many people will care aobut getting their 2c in :)
23:09:00bertrikBigBambi, regarding battery bench, I updated the comments in the code and the entry in the wiki, but didn't think of the manual
23:09:15*bertrik wonders why this stuff is documented in three places anyway
23:09:20BigBambibertrik: It very shortly will be :)
23:09:24Lloreangevaerts: I think enough of it is universal to at least determine our behaviour. Or we could just go with the locale you'd use for English or UK English, in cases where we *have* to make a choice.
23:09:35rasherLlorean: C
23:09:39BigBambibertrik: I think the stuff in the wiki that is in the manual should be scrapped
23:09:39rasherThe locale, that is
23:09:53Lloreanrasher: C?
23:09:58rasherNautilus treats _ as spaces, fwiw
23:10:12LloreanDoes our algorithm treat _s as spaces?
23:10:13rasherLlorean: The locale system uses "C" to basically mean "no locale"
23:10:19Lloreanrasher: Ah, well that's better then
23:10:33gevaertsC basically means "ascii sort"
23:11:10rashergevaerts: I wonder if nautilus still does "smart things" when using C
23:11:31gevaertsprobably. These things have a deplorable tendency to put directories first
23:11:47rasherLlorean: no idea - I just think I saw something about _
23:12:28bertrikBigBambi, the text that the plugin writes to the battery_bench.txt is silly anyway. To read it, you have to open a viewer plugin which will abort the battery bench. Then you'll be able to read that you should not be opening another plugin ... :S
23:12:52BigBambibertrik: indeed so
23:14:07linuxstbMT: It looks very good to me. My only doubt about your project plan would be regarding the conversion to fixed-point (which I will admit I know nothing about) - 1 week seems very optimistic, unless you have experience of doing this before.
23:14:15Lloreanrasher: I don't mind treating _s as spaces since that's a case of "interpreting". I just don't like ignoring things, in general. People may not know to add characters to control sort, but I think it's better to assume "if they added it they meant to" than "if they added it, we should pretend it's not there"
23:15:05MTlinuxstb : I got the same comment from midgey, gavaerts, BigBambi and bluebrother :)
23:15:10 Quit tyfoo ("Carpe diem")
23:15:22BigBambibertrik (jaykay): New bit for manual - http://pastebin.com/m5da433ee
23:15:24linuxstbMT: Then I think you should listen to them ;)
23:15:25kugelLlorean: did my mails to the ml actually come through?
23:15:25gevaertsMT: neither of which knows about this :)
23:15:34Lloreankugel: Haven't seen any
23:15:40MTlinuxstb : I'm waiting for saratoga to get an idea about how long it would take
23:15:52kugelI don't see my mails, neither an answer, but I'm not entirely sure if I turned "receive own mails" off
23:16:05kugeluhm
23:16:05rasherkugel: Check the archive?
23:16:13***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:16:37linuxstbMT: The other thing you may find hard is extracting code from ffmpeg. Have you looked at that library at all yet? Do you have an understanding of how it works?
23:16:54 Quit blkhawk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:17:24kugelthey're in my sent folder..
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23:17:31MTlinuxstb : I have looked at it so many times my eyes are crossed :)
23:17:53*kugel sends one again
23:19:08rasherLlorean: fwiw Nautilus sorts 3 04 5.
23:19:19MTlinuxstb : that's a question I wanted to ask you ; when testing cook decoder with the current demuxer, should I leave it there and ust include its header and link it ? or should I take all the related files in another directory and work with it ?
23:19:42Bagdersort -g
23:19:56Lloreanrasher: As I've said, my favorite idea is to mimic file existing browsers
23:19:58Bagderprintf '4\n03\n10\n2' | sort -g gives 2 03 4 10
23:20:07 Nick EvanCarroll is now known as eval (n=ecarroll@12.28.61.169)
23:20:21Lloreanrasher: I'm only in favour of not ignoring characters, if we're going to decide to make our own decisions anyway. I *hate* the idea of ignoring things a user has chosen to input
23:20:38kugelseems to be a problem with my desktop
23:20:48rasherLlorean: You're still under the impression that he's chosen to input them *specifically* to change sorting in that instance
23:21:01 Quit ibseco ()
23:21:39Lloreanrasher: My other assumption is "if they're put in accidentally, it's a case where they aren't supposed to be in order anyway"
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23:21:51Lloreanrasher: You've yet to describe a case where *ordered* songs have mixed numbers.
23:22:00*gevaerts thinks that people who name files specifically to get them sorted correctly must be banned from any non-ascii sorting
23:22:12linuxstbMT: I would copy the files from ffmpeg into my own directory (e.g. the same one as the demuxer).
23:22:49linuxstbMT: One other thing about your application - it might be useful to mention what other codecs are possible in an RM file, and which have open source decoders.
23:22:50rasherLlorean: gevaerts makes a good point, if you don't use asciibetical sort, why are you renaming files weirdly?
23:23:13BagderLlorean: because they could come from difference sources
23:23:21LloreanBagder: Then why are they ordered?
23:23:32Bagderlike people download songs
23:23:43Bagderand they have song number included
23:23:55LloreanBagder: Downloading a whole album, one song at a time, seems rather tedious.
23:23:58MTlinuxstb : okay, thanks for your help.
23:24:07rasherLlorean: Why would it need to be a whole album?
23:24:09LloreanAnd if you download them from the same source (a legitimate one) they ought to be numbered properly anyway
23:24:18rasherCould be a million songs from a million different albums
23:24:20BagderLlorean: perhaps but known to happen
23:24:24Lloreanrasher: Then why does order matter?
23:24:29 Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:24:38BigBambibertrik: Do you think the battery bench for the manual is OK? - http://pastebin.com/m5da433ee
23:24:39LloreanBasically, your statements are "order matters in random songs" is what I'm understanding
23:24:39rasherLlorean: because you'd expect to find songs with track number 2 near eachother
23:25:00rasherEtc.
23:25:00Lloreanrasher: So we break intentional numbering for "people who may randomly download songs"?
23:25:26gevaertsLlorean: you could download an entire album in individual tracks from different vendors because of weird pricing :)
23:25:29LloreanI don't see why we favour the person who has completely random filenames, while making it impossible to force ordering with 0s.
23:25:30rasherYou've yet to explain this fabled "intentional numbering". Where does it happen with people who use natsort?
23:25:33Bagderintentional renaming, as in zero-prefixing guys like me, could just use ascii
23:25:43rasherExactly.
23:26:04rasherLlorean: smart sort is *already* for the sloppy file-namers
23:26:11rashers/smart sort/natsort/
23:26:16LloreanBagder: And if you have albums from multiple sources, where your folder names are intentionally numbered (because you wrote them) but your filenames aren't (because someone else did)?
23:26:16 Quit BXCracer (Remote closed the connection)
23:26:27LloreanI think we should favour the "if there are zeros, they're intentional case"
23:26:30rasherLlorean: Then you're not a zero-prefixing guy
23:26:33LloreanRather than assuming they're _always_ unintentional
23:26:35rasherBut a sloppy namer
23:26:48gevaertsLlorean: that's not what nautilus does!
23:26:58BagderI say the sort should treat consecutive digits as a single number
23:27:01MTlinuxstb : should it go in the 'Abstract' section ?
23:27:04*gevaerts plays dirty :)
23:27:05Lloreangevaerts: you missed the point where I said "I'm in favour of this *IF* we choose to go our own way at all"
23:27:37LloreanBagder: I think we should treat preceding zeros as *existing* rather than ignoring them outright.
23:27:47Bagderclearly we think differently
23:27:47gevaertsLlorean: I did miss that indeed... Thanks for clarifying
23:28:03LloreanBagder: If 01 - B comes before 1 - A then we acknowledge zerose
23:28:09LloreanBagder: Either ignore them always, or ignore them never, at least.
23:28:39LloreanBut you're already being inconsistent about them, so why not accept they're always intentional, rather than saying "they're only intentional in the case of the non-zero digits matching"?
23:28:48Bagder"consecutive digits means a single number" is not really that hard
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23:29:05LloreanBagder: But 01 and 1 are not sorted as "a single number" at that point
23:29:11Bagderyes
23:29:20Bagderthey're the same
23:29:27LloreanThey aren't sorted the same currently
23:29:34Bagderi know
23:29:52LloreanSo you agree that "01 - B" comes after "1 - A" if we want to sort consistently?
23:29:58Bagderno
23:30:05Bagderoh
23:30:07Bagderwait
23:30:08LloreanBut 01 and 1 are the same if you treat them as a single number
23:30:09Bagderperhaps
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23:30:44linuxstbMT: I was thinking about the "Adding more decoders :" section in 2.2.1
23:30:51LloreanThat's my problem. Right now "02" comes after "1" (in the proposed way) thus ignoring the zero, but "01 - B" would come before "1 - A" because it resorts to strcmp and 01 comes before 1
23:30:53Bagderright, 01 - B comes afrer 1 - A
23:31:05rasherLlorean: it does not resort to strcmp
23:31:07LloreanWe have a sort where sometimes they're considered intentional, and sometimes not.
23:31:17rasherLlorean: only "01 - A" and "1 - A" resorts to strcmp
23:31:24Lloreanrasher: I was told in the case of "matching values" for the number it does.
23:31:27bertrikBigBambi, looks OK and correct to me
23:31:31MTlinuxstb : ah yes, that's better.
23:31:35rasherLlorean: You were misinformed, or misunderstood
23:31:48BigBambibertrik: cool, thanks - I'll commit it then
23:31:55Lloreanrasher: I still think it's stupid to throw things out.
23:31:58kugelLlorean: No, 01 - B comes before 1 - A in the actual version
23:31:59rasherCalling strcmp is the very last resort when *the entire string* compares equal with strnatcmp
23:32:05gevaertsLlorean: the strcmp is there because we need a stable ordering, no other reason
23:32:06bertrikI'm not a native english speaker, but to me it looks the word "will" is used a lot that could be made more active
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23:32:09Lloreankugel: 01 - B should come AFTER 1 - A
23:32:17Lloreankugel: Rasher just said it should too.
23:32:24kugelif we ignore leading zeros 01 - B comes after 1 - A, no strcmp is involved
23:32:25bertrike.g. "will run" to simply "runs"
23:33:00Lloreankugel: If we're ignoring zeros, then.
23:33:18kugelyou said "but "01 - B" would come before "1 - A" because it resorts to strcmp and 01 comes before 1", which is wrong
23:33:23LloreanAnyway, as I've said, I think if we're defining our own sort, we shouldn't throw out user input on the _loose_ chance that someone has a mix of entirely randomly named files that they need in order.
23:33:36kugelthose do not sort the same, just because the numbers sort the same
23:33:44BigBambibertrik: yeah, can do - I've been writing too many academic papers (I'm too passive) :)
23:33:48Bagderhah, but sort -g does not do this...
23:33:58Bagderprintf '01-B\n1-A' | sort -g
23:34:11LloreanBagder: It turns out I was wrong anyway.
23:35:12 Quit casainho ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009030422]")
23:36:03BigBambibertrik: Yep, good call - I've changed those
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23:42:33rasherSome different sortings: http://pastebin.ca/1364717 - I personally think Nautilus does the best job of being smart
23:43:06MTlinuxstb : how about this http://pastebin.com/f19227929 ?
23:44:03Bagderoh, handles the "floats" too...
23:44:11 Quit flydutch ("/* empty */")
23:44:12rasherI wonder if it handles , as well
23:44:29 Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
23:44:52linuxstbMT: Rockbox also supports AC3
23:45:07rasherAh, looks like Windows handles floats when using the locale-specific spearator
23:45:54MTlinuxstb : oops, yes, I'm very sleepy now, that's why :)
23:47:39MTlinuxstb : when do you think I should send my application ?
23:48:07 Quit JdGordon|w ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
23:48:10 Quit petur (Remote closed the connection)
23:48:48gevaertsMT: Previous years students could still edit things until the deadline. I assume that that's still the case, so I see no need to wait
23:48:59 Quit jaykay (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:50:01Bagderyou need to wait until March 23 though ;-)
23:50:14Bagder"Students can submit their applications via the Google Summer of Code 2009 site from March 23 - April 3, 2009. "
23:50:40MTgevaerts : I just want to modify the (fixed-point) thing though, when is saratoga available ?
23:51:14MTBagder : oh yes, forgot that !
23:51:36gevaertsMT: depends. around this time usually
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