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#rockbox log for 2009-03-22

00:01:36bluebrotherI haven't figured what exactly was different with the old rbutilqt.php. I bet it's possible as it worked in the past.
00:02:04 Quit CaptainKewl ("( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )")
00:02:06bluebrotherthough I stumbled across several minor issues. The theme installation didn't got any love for quite some time now.
00:02:19rasherTrue, probably better to just fix what comes up
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00:26:18bluebrotherhmm. Shouldn't the RockboxPlayer wiki page get renamed now that the project is called Lyre?
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00:33:33n1sI think FS #10040 sounds quite more like a support question than a bug, do we have a policy on these things?
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00:38:55bluebrothern1s: simple: no support in the tracker. This definitely is a support question.
00:39:28gevaertsrasher: I have, yes (itunes 7.7 on osx 10.3). It's weird.
00:39:36n1sbluebrother: ok, that's what i though, will close it and tell him to go to forum/ml/ircd
00:39:59*n1s is too slow :)
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01:27:00plutonianwhy is it that every 1 in 20 or so times I unpause playback on my ipod I get weird static and other high pitched noises?
01:28:38rasherWhich build are you running?
01:29:33rasherTry with a current build, I believe something related to this was fixed recently
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01:31:48mc2739bertrik: e200v2 charging test complete - FS #9968 updated
01:32:26bertrikyes I noticed, thanks for testing!
01:32:52mc2739you're welcome - glad to help
01:33:14bertrikit seems the battery voltage reported is accurate, although it is a little higher than the 4.2V configured in the charger
01:34:10bertrikthe constant voltage phase of charging can take a while, so it probably wasn't completely done charging when you disconnected
01:34:33bertrikdid you notice anything weird during testing?
01:34:55bertrikthe player shouldn't get hot for example
01:35:25mc2739no, in fact the player did not seem to be as hot as when charging with OF
01:35:52plutonianlooks like it is fixed in the newest build
01:35:55plutonianI wonder what was wrong
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01:36:47n1splutonian: you can check the svn logs, they should contain descriptions of the changes that have gone in since that rev.
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01:37:16bertrikplutonian, recently the use of DMA was introduced for playback (making it a bit more efficient) and some bugs were fixed in that
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01:37:47bertrikmc2739, cool :)
01:38:21bertrikby the way, you can use the battery bench plugin for monitoring the charging process too
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03:58:46doomwakehow do i put songs and video on my ipod without itunes and beable to see them in the ipod firware?
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03:59:33scorche|shdoomwake: once again, this channel is about rockbox and only rockbox
04:00:39doomwakeisnt rockbox how your able to do that?
04:01:31scorche|shrockbox is a replacement firmware for the ipod and other devices...not a computer program
04:02:14doomwakewell thanks
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04:06:37doomwakedo i have to get a plugin to watch videos with rockbox?
04:07:02scorche|shthe plugin is included
04:07:07evilnick_doomwake: It's a plugin, so you have to "play" each file
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04:07:49evilnick_rockbox plays mpeg2 video, not the Apple iPod firmware format though
04:08:14doomwakeo ok that was the matter
04:09:01doomwakeis there a plug in to read .avi cause that what format that all my videos are in?
04:09:24scorche|shavi is not a format
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04:09:38evilnick_No, you'd be best converting your videos to mpeg2
04:09:53evilnick_(at the required dimensions/bitrate/etc)
04:10:01doomwakeo ok
04:10:05doomwakewell thanks
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04:10:53doomwakeo yeah 1 more thing is there a boot loader out there so i can select to do to rockbox or ipod firware on start up?
04:11:23evilnick_doomwake: Possibly, but if you use that then you wouldn't be able to get support from here/the rockbox forums
04:11:42evilnick_As you'd be running code that isn't from rockbox
04:11:53evilnick_doomwake: Here's more info on converting your videos:
04:11:54doomwakewhat i mean is thre a rockbox one
04:12:08doomwakei know how to enocde videos
04:12:13doomwakebut thanks
04:12:33krazykitthe rockbox bootloader lets you choose. it's just not a menu, it's a button press. the manual can be more specific
04:12:47evilnick_You can load the OF by switching Hold on after booting up the iPod, but there's no bootloader per se
04:12:56 Nick JdGordon|afk is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
04:13:12doomwakeyeah i knowthat i read the manual
04:13:42doomwakei dont like the hold switch cause you have to flip really fast or it loaded rock box
04:13:50doomwakebut its works i guess
04:13:55evilnick_What generation iPod do you have?
04:14:22evilnick_Do you have rockbox installed right now?
04:14:35doomwakeand patch
04:14:51evilnick_and patch? What do you mean?
04:15:10doomwaketheres a patch right for the boot laoder
04:15:48evilnick_What does the patch do?
04:15:58doomwakei dont know i guess runs it better
04:16:47 Part wincent ("Kopete 0.12.7 :")
04:16:49doomwakeit cam from here i though it was rock box
04:18:13evilnick_Well, if you want to have support then please use the official tools (all at
04:19:00evilnick_I can tell you that using the official bootloader (installed with rbutil) I have about 3 seconds to enable the Hold switch after turning my ipod video on, so I'd recommend that route
04:19:33doomwakei wait tell the apple comes up should i do it before that
04:21:15evilnick_The apple logo is displayed BEFORE the backlight comes on, try tilting the iPod so that you can read the screen.
04:21:33doomwakeo ok thanks
04:22:53doomwakedoes the game boy emlator come on the rock box all ready?
04:23:23scorche|shdoomwake: yes...for the last time, read the manual...
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04:24:26evilnick_Yes, it's a viewer so you can "play" .gb or .gbc files. As scorche says, we do have a fine manual, and all these questions are answered there. It'd be appreciated if you have a thorough read of that, as a lot of people spent a long time writing it.
04:37:56evilnick_Can you see the video when the iPod is connected to your computer?
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04:40:10evilnick_So which folder is that in? Try playing it with a media player on your computer (while the iPod is still connected) to make sure it plays properly.
04:41:22doomwakeyeah it does i ran it from the i from on my pc
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04:43:44evilnick_OK, so we now know that the video has been successfully converted as you can play it using your computer's media player. That's useful to know.
04:44:18krazykitnot really. it could still be the wrong format.
04:44:44evilnick_You *should* be able to disconnect the iPod and then using Rockbox, find the video file, and click the centre button on it.
04:44:50doomwakei used the vlc .bat converter on the manul
04:48:19midgey_gevaerts: weird in what way?
04:49:27doomwakein what way did i use it i drag and drop the file over the bat and it converted
04:50:42evilnick_doomwake: How long is the video that you converted? And how long did it take to convert? Did you see vlc start up, then the progress bar go from left to right?
04:51:50doomwakeyeah its like 30sec
04:52:00doomwakeit did not take very long
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04:53:52doomwaketo install it i used the rbutilqt.exe thing does that make a diffents
04:55:32FlynDicecan someone tell me if I should be able to find the address of the framebuffer in and if not what's the best way?
04:56:18evilnick_doomwake: That won't make a difference. So, what I understand is that you connected the iPod to your computer, then drag and dropped a video file (approx. 30 seconds long) over the .bat file so that it'd be converted to the correct format. Is that right? If so, was the ORIGINAL video located on the iPod or on your computer?
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05:01:51BleuLlama< scorche|sh> Rockbox is good, but nowehre near as good as ipodlinux
05:02:01BleuLlamajust thought you all should know he said that.
05:02:31FlynDiceer never mind found it
05:02:37scorche|shi like the character is much more believeable that i said it =O
05:03:12*BleuLlama attempts to promote the ficticious ipodlinux-vs-rockbox feud
05:06:09courtcWas there feud? Oh, I get it now.
05:06:53courtcYea, scorche was totally ragging on how much rockbox steals all of their code.
05:08:11*scorche|sh reminds BleuLlama and courtc that rockbox is the opposite of ipl's main channel/dev-channel arrangement and the social channel is at #rockbox-community
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05:16:45doomwakei had it on pc
05:17:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:20:31doomwakeis rock box the best altrative out there?
05:22:13courtcNo, and don't let anyone, especially scorche tell you differently.
05:23:10evilnick_doomwake: Rockbox is IMHO the best for playing music. iPodlinux is the best for being linux. iPod OF is the best for playing video as it can use a chip that doesn't have documentation available.
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05:24:14doomwakewhat about iwiz
05:26:14doomwakeand what do u mean about ipod of is that another one
05:26:51evilnick_I believe that ipodwizard simply skins the Apple firmware. Anyway, that is offtopic for here. Ipod OF = Original Firmware (i.e. what is loaded by default if you buy an iPod from a store)
05:27:18doomwakeyeah if figure it out
05:28:46BleuLlamaseeya. you're all doing great work. :)
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05:42:09doomwakeis there a way to rip files from an ipod
05:42:26courtcDrag n' Drop.
05:42:57doomwakeis there a way to rip the music on an ipod put on by itunes
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05:53:13jhulstJdGordon: You had mentioned that you had further comments on my SOC application, do you have time to talk about it now?
05:55:27JdGordonna, dw... i changed my mind
06:01:11jhulstFor anybody else that is interested, I'm planning on applying for SOC. The draft of my application is at"> I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions
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07:15:39bluefoxx__OK, so I have a sansa e200, which is currently running a year old version of kugel build, since it has the menus and all that the way i liked them. i just tried to upgrade to the latest release and its crashing on usb connection and the screen goes all screwy, with the picture 'bleeding'
07:15:52bluefoxx__any suggestions?
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07:26:21evilnick_How did you upgrade?
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07:30:23bluefoxx__renamed the old folder in case something stupid like this happened and unzipped the folder from the latest version onto the player, than reinstalled the bootloader
07:31:02evilnick_bluefoxx__: Cool, that sounds wise. The only other thing I'd suggest would be to reset settings on boot
07:31:22bluefoxx__its using the stock ones
07:31:53evilnick_bluefoxx__: When you say "latest release" which page are you referring to?
07:32:03evilnick_Where did you download it?
07:32:03bluefoxx__it just crashes and bleeds bits of the usb logo vertically accross the screen
07:32:46bluefoxx__those two
07:33:04evilnick_bluefoxx__: I would recommend using the latest version from here: as that has native rockbox USB support
07:33:55evilnick_(that is my personal recommendation, I'm not speaking on behalf of Rockbox - that's what I use)
07:33:58bluefoxx__that is the latest version i've got
07:34:07bluefoxx__3.1 is the one its running
07:34:46evilnick_3.1 is the latest *release* - the URL I gave is updated multiple times per day.
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07:44:20bluefoxx__ok, that fixed it, thanks
07:44:30bluefoxx__for your help, have some cake
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12:14:06archivatorIs the rockbox_api documentation generator broken or is it just slow? generate.php has been running for 5 minutes now and my output.txt hasn't increased in size at all. How is it supposed to work?
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12:29:04gevaertsmidgey: it does a lot of things (getting inquiry data, reading, writing, even syncing mp3 files, setting the clock), and suddenly it stops and says that this is an unrecognised ipod
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12:38:40stripwax__Does rockbox ever load more than one codec at the same time?
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12:40:11stripwaxn1s - Jolly good, thought not. Thanks
12:40:18n1sif you don't count the buit-in voice codec
12:40:46stripwaxgood point. but no danger of ever being e.g. two vorbis instances trying to fight for iram
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12:44:02Horscht86well, well
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12:45:40Horschti finaly managed to build the database/songdb tool on windows, thanks to Yoshihisa Uchida :D
12:45:42stripwaxn1s - in that case I'm close to cooking up a patch for vorbis that eliminates the memcpy for about 10Mhz speedup. Patch makes some things static that weren't before, but if only ever one instance that should be fine
12:46:21n1sstripwax: sounds good, any chance of this working on the targets with 96KB iram?
12:48:48stripwaxn1s - not sure, but don't see why not. although it seems that my 10Mhz speedup is wrong (again). well, I'll have something that does something at some point, and will be sure to measure carefully..
12:51:55arf-arfHorscht86: Is that the tool that allows building the database from a PC rather than on target?
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12:53:21archivatorThat's the one.
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12:57:27Horschtarf-arf yes
12:57:44Horschtevilnick_ even
12:58:09evilnick_Horscht: Ah cool. I bet the speedup is phenomenal
12:58:30Horschtyes, ~ 2 minutes to create
12:58:57Horschtnow I have to create a batch file that:
12:59:04Horscht1. synchs my music
12:59:12Horscht2. creates the album art
12:59:19Horscht3. creates/updates db
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13:03:17Horschteh, half the work done already. I only need to reinstall crwsync and imagemagick, then adapt my batch file
13:03:54archivatorHorscht: does songdb prune the database from RESURRECTED entries?
13:04:36Horschtdefine "resurrected"
13:04:44archivatorSee TagcacheDBFormat - there is a paragraph about resurrected entries and how an external app needs to clean them.
13:04:51Horschtyou mean deleted?
13:05:32archivatorWell, yes. An old entry(ies) is marked deleted while the new one becomes resurrected. That happens on any change in mtime.
13:06:26Horschthow can I check wether or not songdb behaves like this?
13:07:20archivatorYou'd need to look at the code.
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13:08:57stripwaxn1s - is there a wiki page on which targets have how much iram, by the way?
13:09:15stripwaxi can test ipod 5g, and h120 (if i can find it / dust it off)
13:10:05Horschtarchivator, unfortunatelly I am not good at code.
13:10:12Horschtbut the tool in question is in FS #9371.
13:10:21n1sstripwax: not afaik, the mcf5249 in iriver h100/h300 has 96k an i *think* some of the pp chips too, the other pps and mcf 5250 have 128
13:10:40stripwaxn1s - cheers
13:13:07archivatorHorscht: doesn't seem to do that. In fact, the tool seem to be a wrapper around tagcache.c with a lot of clutter surrounding it. I have an idea on how to do it without patching core rockbox, I'll see how that goes.
13:16:51*pixelma still wonders whether pf will be in the 3.2 release for all targets (seeing that there are some with control problems, a factor for disabling plugins for a release before)
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13:17:41pixelmalooking into updating the manual but I'm not very motivated documenting the broken state wrt controls for the Ondio :\
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13:18:20gevaertspixelma: is there a list of the targets where controls are broken?
13:19:55pixelmanot that I know of (but the Ondio and the c200 have quirks)
13:20:06gevaertsah, the usual ones
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13:21:53pixelmayes, PLA "overlapping" for targets with a few or "inappropriate" buttons. Unhelpful started a patch to resolve this but I'm not sure it'll go in before the release (I admit wanting to test but didn't so far)
13:23:18pixelmathe thing that doesn't work on the c200 (scrolling down in the track list) is even excluded from the manual
13:23:59n1swe release tomorrow so i'd say it's to late to commit a patch such as that and if it si bad enough to call broken we should probably just drop it from this release for those two targets
13:24:32gevaertsPF has been enabled on c200 forever, so I assume the controls aren't worse for it than 3.1?
13:25:11pixelmaif it was in 3.1 then no, there were no changes yet
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13:26:04gevaertsok. Then I think we should leave it on for c200, and disable it for ondio
13:26:55pixelmathe Ondio is not worse in reality - on the c200 you can't go down in the list, on the Ondio you are not able to go down and up - but since the list doesn't wrap, there's no real difference
13:28:00gevaertshm, ok. If the non-working bits aren
13:28:04pixelmabasically the track list isn't navigatable
13:28:12gevaertst actually *useful*, that's different
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13:28:48*gevaerts doesn't say anything about PF being useful in its current state ;)
13:30:18gevaertsIn that case I'd just release as-is, and maybe document the broken controls in the release notes
13:30:29pixelmasince you can't start playback anyways, the track list is only a way to watch what songs are in the album
13:35:33gevaertshm, apparently there's a patch in FS #8659...
13:36:44gevaertsa bit late to apply it now though
13:38:00pixelmaI'm always "scared" that it breaks controls somewhere else :\
13:40:26gevaertsthis one actually only changes things in the CONFIG_KEYPAD == SANSA_C200_PAD case. All the rest is whitespace and two menu capitalisation things
13:41:37pixelmanice. exceptions
13:42:59*gevaerts cleans up the patch and puts it on FS
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13:44:26gevaertsAnyway I don't think we should break the rules for this one. It's been disabled for the last two releases so it's not really a regression, so IMHO enabling it back 24 hours before the release is not a good idea
13:46:23*amiconn still thinks we're releasing too often now
13:46:51bluefoxxhokai, so i got a spare box together, and have a day to waste, what do i need to compile my own build of rockbox under windows?
13:47:39pixelmawe have a nice wiki ;)
13:48:21gevaertsI think that maybe four months is better, but I also still think that we should at least do a full year's worth of releases (i.e. 4 of them) before changing, just to get into the release habit
13:49:04bluefoxxpixelma: yes, i'm browsing it now, in between reading about the hardware i tossed in my 'new' box and installing on said box
13:49:09gevaertsThis should coincide nicely with devcon, so we can discuss it there
13:49:17bluefoxxi meant program wise, what do i need...
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13:49:32amiconnToo frequent releases seem to cause a lack of motivation: "Oh, let's just disable it for this release, there'll be soon another release." Repeat until ??
13:50:45bluefoxxpixelma: thank you.
13:51:06gevaertsamiconn: that's true, but will longer release cycles really help?
13:51:18bertrikI think the current release schedule is fine, only twice a year would be fine too IMO. Requiring everything to be perfect before doing a release also means that releases are deferred indefinitely
13:51:53amiconnI'm not sure, but they would reduce the mentioned effect
13:52:14gevaertsThe only way I see to really solve that problem is to have longer freezes with people actively working on fixing bugs, and I don't see that happening
13:52:38gevaertsBut yes, three months seems to make releasing a bit too much into a routine
13:53:26*Unhelpful doesn't much like the comments on that task :P
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13:56:48UnhelpfulFS #8659, "Sansa c240 (c200 series) has not worked since the plugins inception, and never will due to a keymapping issue. I wouldn't report this bug, as it will be overlooked, never addressed, and the developers ARE aware of the problem."
13:56:48bertrikI guess the release frequency (either more or less often)just doesn't have that much effect on bugs getting fixed as anticipated ...
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14:08:35archivatorCould someone explain to me how exactly pcm_calculate_peaks works? What is the timespan over which it calculates a peak?
14:08:48 Part timing
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14:18:43archivatorIs there a way to access the PCM data from the plugins?
14:19:17stripwaxarchivator - by access do you mean 'read' or 'write' ? if read, take a look at the oscilloscope plugin
14:20:25archivatorRead. That uses pcm_calculate_peaks. Which apparently is not realtime (works over a set of samples). Hence, I need the PCM data.
14:21:04stripwaxit's close-to realtime. what exactly are you trying to do / need ?
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14:24:58*stripwax sighs - double the iram buffers, removed one memcpy in block.c, and two memsets in window.c , and only about 4Mhz improvement
14:25:04archivatorI'm trying to do frequency spectrum analyzer using FFT. However, the data I'm getting is not precise enough and the resulting graph is inaccurate to say the least.
14:25:41rasherstripwax: surely 4MHz is a good improvement still?
14:26:03stripwaxarchivator - realtime FFT? neat. well, you could take a look at what pcm_calculate_peaks does, and add something new/similar to the plugin api?
14:26:05gevaertswill it be in 3.2?
14:26:08*gevaerts runs away
14:26:21stripwaxgevaerts - chuckle
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14:26:33stripwaxactually more like 2mhz. huh? bummer.
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14:27:15archivatorActually, my contribution is minimal - I found a fixed point FFT library (albeit 16bits)
14:27:29archivatorI'm only wrapping it around the rb API.
14:27:45stripwaxActually, a cute way to profile the codec would be to make independent significant chunks of the code do nothing and see what speed up happens. I suspect block.c is not particular slow after all (or if it is then it's all in vect_add)
14:28:17stripwaxarchivator - if you take a look at how pcm_calculate_peaks works, you can probably do something similar
14:28:59gevaertshm, would this be before or after DSP?
14:29:48tmztUnhelpful: I have a c240v1 available for testing, I don't use it as a current player though
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14:39:18archivatorHmm, if I understand correctly, the more often you call it, the more "precise" it gets. Though, there is stuff I don't understand - it gets way too low level for me.
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14:41:18n1sstripwax: (for the logs apparently) we have some profiling capabilities that you can use in codecs
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15:02:09Horschtis there some way to disable rockbox USB mode? copying over files takes more power than it gets charged with
15:02:30Horschtother than recompiling
15:03:02gevaertsSure. Either wait a day or so for 3.2, or reboot into the OF
15:03:36Horscht3.2 will have USB disabled?
15:04:12Horschtany reasons besides high power requirements when copying?
15:05:13gevaertsSome people had connection problems. Those *may* have been fixed, but we decided that it was too late to be sure that the fix was OK (I'm still not 100% sure...)
15:05:48Horschtok, if i was to build the latest SVN, would it be disabled as well? if not, which edits would I need to make to disable it?
15:06:16robin0800gevaerts: still doesn't work in gnome
15:06:16gevaertsNo. trunk still has it enabled, it's just the release branch that doesn't have it.
15:07:01gevaertsrobin0800: can you paste dmesg output somewhere?
15:07:07doomwakewhere the goame boy emulaor at?
15:07:14robin0800gevaerts: some start screens stop it also
15:07:46gevaertsHorscht: edit firmware/export/config-<your-target>.h, and remove the #define USE_ROCKBOX_USB line
15:08:22robin0800gevaerts: given up with gnome on kde now
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15:08:52pixelmaBigBambi: around?
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15:09:01robin0800gevaerts: the start screen is kde
15:09:06gevaertsrobin0800: I know about the start screen thing. I wouldn't consider that alone serious enough to keep it out of a release though (workaround is easy...)
15:09:46Horschtgevaerts, all 4 lines? or will commenting out the USE_ROCKBOX_USB suffice?
15:09:46*gevaerts still thinks that if on the same PC one desktop environment can work with a device and another can't, the bug is likely not on the device
15:09:55gevaertsHorscht: *only* USE_ROCKBOX_USB
15:10:13Horschtk, thank you
15:10:22robin0800gevaerts: ive not seen anyone else has said gnome has a problem
15:10:46gevaertsrobin0800: maybe, but I haven't seen *any* detailed information...
15:11:33pixelmaBigBambi: "PictureFlow uses both the album art (see section ?? (page ??)) and database (see section 4.2 (page 23)) features of Rockbox" is not entirely correct for monochrome targets, hence the cross reference doesn't work). Question is how to deal with it because the album art chapter describes how files have to be named and that also applies to pf...
15:12:04pixelmaothers can throw in ideas too ;)
15:12:59robin0800gevaerts: its funny that kde works and gnome dosen't and when asked say all usb is in ubuntu
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15:13:36gevaertsrobin0800: which is why I want to see more information...
15:14:53gevaertspixelma: maybe \opt-ing a bit in the first paragraph of appendix/album_art.tex ?
15:15:16gevaertshm, that's already done
15:15:18robin0800gevaerts: well there isn't much it stops on scanning device waiting for device to settle
15:15:21pixelmaso, enabling that chapter first
15:15:51robin0800gevaerts: i think perhaps its gnome mount
15:17:28gevaertsI still want to see the actual dmesg output before concluding anything at all about it
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15:20:08pixelmaok, that album_art chapter was already included for everything swcodec (so should be prepared for non-core album art already)
15:21:22rasherThat was the intention, yes
15:22:20gevaertsI think that at some point it would be nice to have plugin-features, so you can \opt directly on plugins
15:22:25pixelmaproblem smaller than I thought first
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15:23:14rasherI *thought* I had done that right, but I obviously must have missed something
15:23:26rasherI did consider non-core album art, but apparently got the opts wrong
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15:25:26BigBambipixelma: I don't think it worked on monochrome when I wrote that
15:26:11rasherBigBambi: Pretty sure I changed it
15:26:19pixelmarasher: nono, just enabling the pictureflow chapter for the Archos targets and everything related was currently dependent on "swcodec2
15:26:21rasherTo refer to the appendix rather than the wiki
15:26:46BigBambirasher: yeah, I referenced the wiki
15:27:03BigBambiIt was before you wrote your bit on Album Art
15:27:34gevaertsrasher: the problem is the \opt{swcodec}{\opt{tagcache} bit
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15:28:01rasherAh, which was accurate at the time, I believe
15:28:16robin0800gevaerts: kde for nome only first line
15:29:16gevaertsWhat do you mean by "only first line"?
15:29:34robin0800nome = gnome
15:29:42pixelmagevaerts: it was used this way for pictureflow too, but I guess it's easiest to use lcd_bitmap there too
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15:30:11pixelma(patch almost done)
15:30:29gevaertspixelma: I think so, yes. It seems to just be lcd_bitmap+tagcache now
15:31:03rasherUntil someone ports pf to playergfx
15:31:25robin0800gevaerts: gnome stops at the scan line and sayes waiting for device to settlie
15:31:48gevaertsrobin0800: so this isn't actually a dmesg while running gnome?
15:32:29tmztthat's a kernel message
15:32:33robin0800gevaerts: No this is kde
15:32:43gevaertsso what am I supposed to do with this?
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15:33:14tmztrobin0800: can you see if lsusb return?
15:34:07robin0800gevaerts: thats the only info I have nothing happens in gnome its not there not seen not mounted
15:34:18gevaertsAlso, there would be interesting bits before this. I need to have the output starting from "new full/high speed USB device", in the case where it goes wrong
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15:36:41robin0800gevaerts: can no one else can help & no lsusb can't see it
15:36:58gevaertsare you running lsusb as root?
15:37:43robin0800gevaerts: probably used sudo
15:38:08BigBambirasher: Did you suceed in the Cabbie v2 relicencing thing?
15:38:18rasherNot quite yet
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15:38:45gevaertslook, unless someone can actually reproduce this, and try things, I'm going to ignore this. I *can't* work with "probably" and "it looked mostly like this, only different"
15:39:11BigBambirasher: Just waiting on responses?
15:39:28rasherBigBambi: Well, it isn't just cabbie v2, but all our bundled themes. 14 positive responses of 22 needed
15:39:32robin0800is no one else running gnome on jaunty
15:40:10TBOL3robin0800: I am, maybe it's because I just joined, but what's the problem?
15:40:13BigBambirasher: OK, no probs - I was just thinking of my edited cabbie v2 for the new theme site :)
15:40:14rasher2 of the cabbie v2 contributores left
15:40:25rasherBigBambi: Will have to wait :\
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15:40:42BigBambirasher: Yeah, there is no hurry :)
15:41:06robin0800TBOL3: no usb connection in gnome
15:41:13pixelmarasher: who left?
15:41:18Ubuntuxer@robin0800 I have gnome in jaunty and have also problems with connection.
15:41:50rasherpixelma: perrikwp (he responded, but with a blank mail) and Yohann Misquitta (the author of the original cabbie)
15:42:39robin0800TBOL3: can you talk to gevaerts and give him the info he requires
15:42:56rasherAnd then some authors of a few other themes, but I'm mostly worried about cabbiev2
15:43:11perrikwprasher: sorry my online mail client sucks, you guys have my permission to license the theme any way you want
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15:43:23rasherperrikwp: Excellent!
15:43:34BigBambihehe, good news :)
15:44:00gevaertsUbuntuxer: what player are you using, and which revision of rockbox?
15:44:04 Quit saravvb (Client Quit)
15:44:04perrikwpI'm just glad to help this project any way I can
15:44:39TBOL3robin0800: Hmm... I seem to have the same problem.
15:44:53TBOL3Let me upgrade to the latest build...
15:44:59robin0800TBOL3: can you talk to gevaerts and give him the info he requires
15:45:12gevaertsTBOL3: which player, and which revision?
15:45:30Ubuntuxersansa e250; i don't know the revision but just a few days old
15:45:45gevaertsSystem->Rockbox info will tell you
15:46:19Ubuntuxersorry, just a easy look Version: r20323-090321
15:46:28TBOL3gevaerts: Sansa e260, and I'm using 090226
15:46:34BigBambiUbuntuxer, TBOL3: I'll just point out (before gevaerts goes mad) that to help he needs exact information :)
15:47:05TBOL3gavaerts: I'm also using the bootloader provided by SansaLinux.
15:47:45TBOL3BigBambi: Umm... sorry I'm a n00b here, but what do you mean by 'exact information'?
15:48:21TBOL3If you mean what version of Jaunty I'm using, it's Alpha 6.
15:48:31TBOL3Well, Alpha 5, upgraded to Alpha 6.
15:48:37robin0800TBOL3: the number after the r not just the date
15:48:51BigBambiTBOL3: Such as revision number, not just e.g. a build from the last few days, check all information etc.
15:49:14gevaertsOK. Can you plug in the player, wait a bit (10 seconds at least), run dmesg and pastebin the output, starting at the "new full/high speed USB device" line ?
15:50:06gevaerts(before upgrading(
15:50:23TBOL3Oh, here you go, r20100
15:50:53*robin0800 ttp://
15:51:16UbuntuxerIs someone well versed with the highscore.h? I would like to know if it's possible, that function highscore_update return the position of the input.
15:53:36TBOL3So, this is probably a dumb question, but what does the first set of numbers mean?
15:54:10BigBambiTBOL3: It is the exact revision of the source code
15:54:24rasherOkay, missing response from Chris Oxtoby (DancePuffDuo), Jake Owen (zezayer), Magnus Westerlund (engineer2, boxes), Mike Sobel (marquee), Raymond Hoh (iAmp), Roan Horning (Rockboxed), Yohann Misquitta (cabbiev2)
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15:55:04BigBambiTBOL3: Everytime someone channges the source code there is a new build, or which there are several per day - so the revision number tells us exactly which build you are using, whereas the date means it could be one of many
15:55:17soapLlorean: are you around?
15:56:18TBOL3OK, I've updated to r20444-090322, and I still have the same conectivity problem.
15:56:56gevaertscan you provide the dmesg output I asked for?
15:57:06TBOL3BigBambi: So, are you saying that while the number after the dash is the date, the number before is the time of day?
15:57:20BigBambiTBOL3: No, the revision number
15:57:36BigBambiTBOL3: It goes up by one everytime somebody updates the source code
15:57:52TBOL3BigBambi: Ok, so how do you decide which number to give out, and what significance does it have?
15:57:56soapBigBambi: this thought of mine is for all of those active in the Forums, and IF Ll shows up I'd like you part of the discussion as well...
15:58:36TBOL3Oops, sorry.
15:58:36BigBambiTBOL3: Always give out the revision number, and I don't understand the second part of the uestion :)
15:59:04TBOL3BigBambi: Sorry, you answered it. I just didn't read your responce until after I hit enter.
15:59:14BigBambisoap: Did I miss the thought, or is it coming?
15:59:25soapLlorean: Here it goes. You can read this in the logs if you aren't here now.
15:59:59soapOfficial forum policy is for discussions to be only about Rockbox. The forum police get pretty anal about this at times, yet at other times do not.
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16:00:48soapI can list a whole series of "side projects" which are not strictly about Rockbox, yet are not held to the standard. Before we start I wish to say I have no problem with this. The world is grey/gray.
16:01:10BigBambitrue that
16:01:48soapThe latest ones are (font converter) and ( playlist generator)
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16:02:17robin0800BigBambi: have you seen about icon licence
16:02:27soapThen we also have the established "side projects" like QTScrobbler, and WinFF (with its Rockbox-Ready defaults).
16:02:50BigBambirobin0800: What about it?
16:03:25robin0800BigBambi: is my assumption correct?
16:03:57soapI could scrape the forums and collect quite the list of "helper" applications which are not official projects, yet clearly either rely on Rockbox, or take special account of Rockbox. I feel it would be a service to the community for these applications to be pseudo-supported by
16:04:34BigBambirobin0800: Basically. You just need to abide by whatever licence they are under.
16:04:55BigBambirobin0800: That may or may not mean attributing them
16:05:11 Join webguestTBOL3 [0] (n=180ac800@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
16:05:30soapHere goes the proposal. I think it would be a great idea to subvert the whole idea of the vendor-tie-in and render-unto-Caesar system of "Made for Ipod" ( ) and create a "Made for Rockbox" logo program.
16:05:52webguestTBOL3OK, I have the results of running dmesg, but it's quite leanthy, do you really want me to paste it in?
16:05:53robin0800BigBambi: I'm not sure it says
16:05:54soap(title doesn't have to be "Made for Rockbox" - just spitballing here).
16:06:43BigBambiWhat would happen if a change in Rockbox invalidated that?
16:06:57BigBambiWould it be revoked? And then how and by whom?
16:06:58soapThe idea is to create a special sub-forum for Rockbox-ready helper applications, and provide web-space and developement tools (SVN? Flyspray?) for projects which fit the criteria.
16:07:04gevaertswebguestTBOL3: either select manually, or if you get confused by that just paste it all
16:07:09BigBambiI could see the argument for a forum related to them
16:07:15robin0800webguestTBOL3: no use paste bin
16:07:38soapBigBambi: that is the problem with the literal title "Made for Rockbox". Something more along the lines of "Rockbox Aware" is probably better.
16:07:39gevaertswell yes. No pasting directly in here...
16:08:24webguestTBOL3Ok, here you go.
16:08:53BigBambisoap: We'd have to think up some guidelines for where to draw the line too - e.g. a thread on ffmpeg as it can be used to convert videos for Rockbox
16:09:10gevaertsrobin0800: no need to repeat things every three minutes
16:09:24soapI think many of these tools either flesh-out the Rockbox experience or provide ease-of-use by simplifying (or noobifying) everyday tasks, and really round-out the whole Rockbox "lifestyle" for many users. It is because of that I think could take some minimal steps to nuture them.
16:10:12soapBigBambi: ffmpeg /can/ be used. WinFF ships with rockbox presets (to the best of my understanding). Thus WinFF is "Rockbox Aware" whereas ffmepg is not.
16:10:46BigBambisoap: I know, that's what I meant - we'd have to have some well thought out guidelines on where to draw the line
16:11:00webguestTBOL3It looks like the computer can see the sansa, but it's not really wanting to talk to it.
16:11:27soapPerhaps I have vision problems, but I don't see where the line is blurry. Either the tool makes an effort to target Rockbox or it doesn't.
16:11:30BigBambisoap: I certainly think it bears discussion - perhaps a post to the dev mailing list would be a good idea?
16:11:32gevaertswebguestTBOL3: can you boot to single-user mode and see if it gets further without gnome?
16:11:57robin0800webguestTBOL3: Thats what mine did too sansa c240 in my case
16:12:05BigBambisoap: It isn't necesarily blurry to you/me, but I bet it would be to users :)
16:12:43BigBambisoap: I'd be more inclined to say have a subforum for such "Rockbox aware" tools where people could discuss their use
16:12:44soap _though_ I also think it would be nice if we had a place to discuss "non-Rockbox-aware" tools which proved useful - I find that is a more slippery slope when looked at from the perspective of the goals of the forums.
16:13:08*gevaerts notes that robin0800 has not mentionned the disconnect before
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16:14:06soapThe issue is I am afraid of losing some of these tools to time. The font converter GUI is nothing special IMHO, but a lot of people will likely find it useful. If we/me provided hosting for it we're buying insurance against the eventual abandonment by its author.
16:14:27robin0800gevaerts: not seen disconnect is that not the user removing the device?
16:14:51soapsorry for walking all over your conversation, robin0800.
16:15:41robin0800soap: its OK no problem
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16:16:39TBOL3robin0800: Hmm.. it says that it cannot mount the device on port 7.
16:16:51TBOL3But that was just by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F1.
16:17:14TBOL3So, let me boot into recovery mode, and see if I can get any further.
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16:17:58BigBambisoap: We'd want to put licensing requirements on stuff too IMO
16:18:09robin0800TBOL3: Unplug player and re plug in I hope
16:19:16soapBigBambi: well, if was going to host it or provide dev space, sure, but for discussion and "Rockbox aware"?
16:19:50BigBambisoap: I was thinking of the former
16:20:12BigBambisoap: Following on from your "If we/me provided hosting for it we're buying insurance against the eventual abandonment by its author."
16:20:16TBOL3robin0800: Yup, I did. Also, I got the same thing in recovery mode. Unable to emulate USB device on port 7.
16:20:59*gevaerts guesses "enumerate", not "emulate"
16:21:28courtcSo... you aren't going to tag a device as "Rockbox aware", only software, correct?
16:21:31gevaertsTBOL3: can you run "cat /sys/module/usb_storage/parameters/delay_use" ?
16:22:12BigBambicourtc: Devices that are "rockbox aware" are de facto already supported
16:22:13BigBambicourtc: That is what Rockbox is
16:22:23robin0800Perhaps usb needs a front end and kde works and gnome dosen't
16:23:49courtcI disagree. I would think devices designed specifically with rockbox in mind could be named "rockbox aware", otherwise rockbox is more "device aware" than vise versa.
16:24:11BigBambicourtc: If there ever are any, then maybe
16:24:26archivatorSorry to interrupt but can anyone help me with some audio processing? I get a spike right in the middle of a fourier transform, any ideas what I might be doing wrong?
16:25:08tmztgaev: robin: is that a manual disconnect? because when usb device really fails it's reported as a disconnect
16:26:12robin0800gevaerts: mine kde said 5
16:26:30tmztrobin0800: what desktop and version are you running, could it be attempting libmtp access?
16:26:52tmztyou didn't unplug the sansa?
16:27:24robin0800kde 4.2 on ubuntu alpha 6
16:27:33gevaerts looks related
16:27:58tmztdo you know the ubuntu code name or version? alpha 6 of what
16:28:26TBOL3gevaerts: I typed it in, and the output was 5
16:29:21TBOL3Also, when I plugged the device in, I got (in addition to the unable to emulate USB device on port 7), I also got several Assuming drive cache: write through.
16:29:56gevaertscan you pastebin the exact output?
16:31:26robin0800tmzt: yes jaunty 9.04
16:31:33TBOL3gevaerts: No, sorry, not really, I'm on another computer and I don't know how to 'copy and paste through the air'.
16:31:43TBOL3But really, the output was 5.
16:31:57tmztare they both having the same problem?
16:32:12TBOL3I think so, I don't think it's an issue with gnome.
16:32:20TBOL3Because I don't have gnome running at all.
16:32:31tmztI think it might be hal causing it
16:32:45gevaertsTBOL3: I believe the 5 :) It's the other messages that worry me
16:32:49*BigBambi thinks it is using an alpha distribution
16:32:57tmztthe sansa vid/pi is registered as supporting gphoto2
16:32:59robin0800tmzt: I think its gnome kde works?
16:33:42tmztwould you stop hal and gnome/kde and try enumerating?
16:33:47gevaertstmzt: that's interesting...
16:34:36TBOL3gevaerts: Oh, umm.. well, do you know ubuntu has a text based web browser by default (I can't download eLinks as I'm in recovery mode at the moment).
16:34:49TBOL3Or, I could just type it in...
16:35:09gevaertsTBOL3: let's first follow up on tmzt's ideas
16:35:51tmztno, init 3, ctrl-alt-f1, sudo /etc/init.d/hal stop, /etc/init.d/gdm stop etc.
16:37:00TBOL3tmzt, gevaerts: OK, I'm on ubuntu 9.04, Alpha 6 (updated from Alpha 5).
16:37:29TBOL3Are you saying you want me to start up in normal mode again, an just drop down into the terminal from there?
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16:37:57saratogafrom what I remember USB doesn't work right in some of the Ubuntu alphas
16:37:59tmztand check /usr/share/hal/fdi/information/20thirdparty/20-libmtp8.fdi
16:38:05tmztsearch for Sansa
16:38:46tmztTBOL3: yeah, but init 3 should work from recovery shell
16:38:47robin0800Its not sansa its rockbox
16:38:50TBOL3saratoga: Well, my ipod connects just fine with Alpha 6, along with some cell phones.
16:38:55*gevaerts leaves this to tmzt for now. Best to have someone who knows ubuntu+hal handling this :)
16:39:18saratogaa couple people have reported this problem, so its probably an ubuntu bug
16:39:44tmztit's more of gnome-data or hal bug I think
16:39:55TBOL3tmzt: Ok, I'm in runlevel 3. Now let me try what you said...
16:40:05tmztone issue is rockbox using the sansa vid/pid
16:40:28gevaertswe don't have much choice there
16:40:28tmztwhen it's essentially a different device
16:40:39tmztoh, it's hardware?
16:40:52gevaertsno, but you can't just pick a vid/pid pair at random
16:41:11domonokywe could choose another usb-id, but then we would have buy one, which is expensive :-)
16:41:32tmzttrue, probably why all the linux handhelds identify is ipaq itsy
16:41:36gevaertsAlso, non-buggy software is supposed to look at the descriptors and not try mtp on a device that doesn't do mtp
16:42:06tmztright, so it's a hal bug but it took a long time to get sansa supported at all
16:43:05robin0800tmzt: if true why does kde work?
16:43:13tmztand mtp does work for OF in rhythmbox, etc.
16:43:45robin0800OF works in gnome
16:43:46tmztrobin0800: not familiar with kde, but I think it ignores the capabilities reported by hal
16:43:47rasherThe OF can be set to MSC mode as well, so that's hardly an excuse
16:43:57domonokyrobin0800: does your kde setup use the same hal version ?
16:48:12archivatorDoes the ipod have 16- or 32-bit sound?
16:48:46archivatoripod video that is
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16:50:20TBOL3tmzt: OK, I think I killed hal, I plugged in the player again, and got the same message.
16:50:30TBOL3I also stopped the gnome display manager.
16:50:55TBOL3Unway, I'm terribly sorry, but I have pressing buisness at the moment, but will be back on lator today.
16:50:58tmztcan you paste the full dmesg now?
16:51:09tmztor sudo dmesg -c and the plug player
16:51:11TBOL3Ok, ya, give me a moment
16:51:28robin0800domonoky: the latest
16:51:41TBOL3tmzt: BTW, do you know how to copy/paiste from a terminal?
16:52:50tmztno, trying to think of a way, some pastebins allow nc access
16:53:17tmztif you retart gnome and don't plug in sansa you can still dmesg
16:53:48robin0800TBOL3: I highlight text and right click and choose copy
16:54:40TBOL3robin0800: Gnome is offline at the moment. AKA, I don't have a mouse.
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16:56:05robin0800TBOL3: alt tab for the menues?
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16:57:41TBOL3tmzt: Well, I typed the text into my laptop, and here it is:
16:57:51TBOL3Again, I'm sorry, I must now take a leave of absence.
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16:59:37tmztstill nothing there, unable to enumerate should be the last thing
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17:06:55robin0800tmzt: I take it were pretty certain this is a linux bug and not rockbox?
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17:07:20tmztwe can't know without the dmesg
17:07:52tmztwhat we care about (I assume) is if the kernel sees the scsi (sdb) device
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17:08:05tmztand can mount it
17:08:35tmztif it can't, rockbox is not working in mass storage mode, but I think that's unlikely
17:09:39gevaertsthe fact that it works in KDE seems to point *very* strongly towards a non-rockbox problem
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17:11:16tmztgaev: so it's an ubuntu or hal regression that only affects rockbox sansa users (maybe OF MSC as well)?
17:11:41gevaertsthat's what I think, yes
17:11:41rasherrobin0800: does it work in the OF if you set USB mode to MSC?
17:12:16robin0800rasher: Yes
17:12:34rasherHm, but doesn't the OF pretend to be MTP if it gets asked?
17:12:41rasherOr is that another setting?
17:12:56tmztso we need lsusb -v -v for both
17:13:02robin0800rasher: No only in auto
17:13:05gevaertsdoesn't it depend on the version? At least some of them have MTP or Auto
17:13:46robin0800gevaerts: MSC or auto
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17:14:21gevaertshm, ok
17:15:27robin0800gevaerts: and your correct if asked auto willsay mtp or if not asked msc
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17:28:14gevaertsarchivator: do you want to get samples from before or after dsp?
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17:29:23archivatorgevaerts: preferably, after.
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17:31:17gevaertsnot that I know what that means in practice, I just thought it's best to be clear about this :)
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18:08:22Nico_Psaratoga_lab: the problem with the data you get from the codec is that it's early compared to what's actually being played back
18:08:39Nico_Pis the PCM latency known accurately?
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18:12:38saratoga_labNico_P: I don't think you can know the PCM latency all that accurately, since when the CPU boosts it will be quite different then unboosted
18:12:54saratoga_labi guess getting data from the driver is the best bet if it must be low latency
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18:17:04Nico_Psaratoga_lab: any pointers on how that could be achieved?
18:17:58saratoga_labNico_P: no thats pretty far outside my experience
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18:22:57moosNico_P: hi, jhMikeS had some ideas iin the past IIRC...
18:31:48*JdGordon once aain calls for testers for 9795
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18:32:31*gevaerts is using FS #9795, but he doesn't have anything to report yet
18:32:53gevaertsI haven't used it a lot though
18:33:12JdGordonI'm not sure what to do about it... there is 1 person who keeps getting codec fails.. but noone else has seen tha
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18:33:56JdGordonspeak of the devil :)
18:35:28JdGordongevaerts: whic target have you got it on?
18:35:34gevaertsgigabeat f
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18:38:40Nico_PJdGordon: looking at the patch
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18:51:11rashern1s: Would be nice to use tools/ in the future when deprecating phrases
18:51:19wangxiangCan anyone tell me the possible problems of integrating the Text-to-speech module to rockbox which you think? thanks!
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18:58:03Nico_PJdGordon: I'm not convinced the swap between thistrack_id3 and othertrack_id3 should happen in codec_load_next_track(). I would have put it in audio_check_new_track()
18:58:10n1srasher: oh, didn't know that existed, it's some kind of script for editing strings in all langs?
18:58:44rashern1s: Yup, it'll do a few easily scriptable operations. Deprecating being one of them :)
18:59:00rasherSo all languages are updated at once, meaning less noise
18:59:25rasherthat did the trick for this change
19:02:01JdGordonNico_P: ok, I'
19:02:07JdGordonll look into moving it today
19:03:25Nico_P"this needs to be unswapped some time later" => I didn't notice where it's done, but audio_finalize_track_change() comes to my mind as a good place
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19:03:55n1srasher: good to know
19:05:16JdGordonNico_P: umm, yeah i tinhk that makes sense, that isnt called on the last track of the playlist, so it should work
19:05:57 Quit petur (Remote closed the connection)
19:06:02Nico_Pthat function is called when the PCM track change ends, so it's basically meant for that kind of stuff
19:06:47Nico_Papart from these remarks, I like the principle of the patch a lot. I actually wish I had thought of it :)
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19:13:16ashishhey all !!
19:13:57ashishcongratulations to all for having Rockbox in GSoC 2009 :)
19:15:08ashishI would like to participate as a student for Rockbox - to implement touchscreen as an input device
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19:16:18tmztare ther any touchscreen targets yet?
19:16:33Nico_Pashish: do you have one of the touchscreen targets?
19:16:37ashishI have been working with both the hardware and software of Mt stuff for some time and think that MT-based interactive music system will be a a great boost and will be seen in big installations
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19:18:24ashisha MT based muisc player or a mixer for DJ will be a great thing
19:18:24erlockfisheranyone around?
19:18:25BigBambiashish: MT?
19:18:59BigBambierlockfisher: Just ask any questions
19:19:03ashishNico_P, tmzt - sorry if i couldnt get what do you mean by touchscreen *target*
19:19:05BigBambi(rockbox related of course)
19:19:11erlockfisherYes, sorry
19:19:20ashishBigBambi: MultiTouch - MT
19:19:24BigBambiashish: A DAP that Rockbox runs on
19:19:31erlockfisherI was trying to find out if there was a specific Summer of Code channel for rockbox?
19:20:04BigBambiashish: The point of touchscreen is that Rockbox is being ported to music players with touchscreens, that need a different input method than e.g. an ipod that has buttons
19:20:14BigBambierlockfisher: No, just in here
19:21:58BigBambierlockfisher: As in this is the place for GSOC stuff :)
19:22:24erlockfisherUnderstood, thanks
19:22:34ashishBigBambi: with touchscreens , the best method is gesture recognition rather than having buttons to touch - so we can go for a framework wherein a gesture based input could be given to the rockbox
19:22:51erlockfisherI am not really sure where to start. I think the not knowing C is a pretty big setback
19:23:55n1serlockfisher: do you know other programming languages?
19:24:02BigBambiashish: Maybe, but I'm moderatley sure that none of our touchscreen targets in development will do multi touch for instance
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19:24:23BigBambiashish: Also, are you familiar with rockbox at all? There are a significant number of functions to map
19:24:24erlockfisherI'm getting more familiar with python, and I'm beginning to learn C++
19:24:50tmztif there is a touchscreen target, linux should give some cues as to how to implement low-level touchscreen drivers
19:25:07rashertmzt: we do have touchscreen drivers
19:25:09BigBambitmzt: Maybe, surely that depends on the hardware
19:25:14rasherWe lack the middleware layer, so to speak
19:25:17tmzteither i2c, spi, ac97, or soc internal adc
19:25:41BigBambiashish: JdGordon has been playing with touchscreen, he would probably be good to speak to
19:26:22ashishBigBambi: ok, thanks :)
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19:30:57ashishI am more of a touchscreen based application developer, I worked on a multi-touch simulator last summer in GSoC 08 . It would be great if I can help in developing applications running on the touchscreen target. Can you please give me mail id of JdGordon to discuss with him
19:31:08ashishor if he is present here :)
19:31:56BigBambiashish: He is here all the time, hang around and I'm sure he'll appear
19:32:26tmztashish: a calibration ui could be useful
19:32:38BigBambiashish: And it isn't so much applications, it is how to control Rockbox (which is a complete firmware replacement) on a touchscreen device. It is currently set-up solely for button input
19:32:52BigBambiashish: A control method full stop would be useful first
19:33:24BigBambier s/ashish/tmzt/
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19:34:50JdGordonashish: hi
19:34:56ashishyeah true, the UI will be touch-based to control and calibrate it - replacing the buttons to some extent
19:35:03ashishHi JdGordon :)
19:35:34tmztBigBambi: I mean resistive might not be usable at all without calibration and wouldn't that control require major changes to the core that would have to be agreed on? this is a student project where that amount of prior consensus could make it difficult
19:35:52ashishI was hoping if we could discuss some touch-based control application development on a touchscreen target for rockbox
19:36:25BigBambiashish: completely replacing the buttons in some cases
19:36:32BigBambii.e. the buttons are lacking
19:37:14tmztcould PF form the basis for a new ui for touchscreen at least parts of it?
19:37:29BigBambitmzt: dear god, I hope not
19:38:07ashishwhat we can do is map the input from the touch-screen driver to a gesture recognition module which will then relay commands to the main core to do the required things , similar to what would have been done on pressing a button
19:38:10BigBambitmzt: And I wasn't saying that calibration wouldn't be needed, I just meant that it isn't the first thing
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19:38:56JdGordonashish: I dont know if gestures will work so well.. you have to remember that the touchscreen's are really cheap and pretty crap..
19:39:40LloreanJdGordon: Unless they're really simple gestures. Like "bottom left to top right"
19:39:58JdGordonok, yeah
19:40:12ashishthen it will be just buttons that can be displayed on the touchscreen - which can be of various shape and size acc to the context
19:40:30ashishthis will require to bypass the gesture recognition module
19:40:31LloreanGestures like "move from left to right" would be good for next-track skip, to avoid accidentally triggering it.
19:41:05Lloreanashish: Please type out full words like "according" in this channel.
19:41:20JdGordonup<->down sliding is also needed for things like the list
19:41:26ashishjust it will be like a button-event triggered by touch that point
19:41:43ashishLlorean: okay - sorry
19:42:47JdGordonashish: right now, the touchscreen works by needing to figure out rouphly what was pressed by the pixel position, so each screen needs to be handled seperalty... If it could bechanged to more closly work like real button events that would be great
19:43:09 Join Buschel [0] (
19:43:11tmztso it would be the same interface but the text would be larger to accomadate a fingertip press?
19:43:33saratogai always wondered if we could make it so that list items were clickable in rockbox
19:43:39saratogaon touch screen targets taht is
19:43:50JdGordonlist items are selectable (or were) on touchscreen
19:44:07JdGordonorigionallythey were, but then we sort of changed tot he fake grid button thing which isnt so good
19:44:39 Join bluebrother [0] (n=dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother)
19:44:44Buschelanybody else using FS #9708 (DMA for PP502x)?
19:44:45 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
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19:45:30*JdGordon also wants a completly customizable touch interface on the wps so you could put buttons anywhere
19:45:32saratoga2it seems to me we could keep the UI pretty similar on touch targets just by using a slightly larger font for list items and making them clickable rather then scrollable
19:45:53JdGordonit still needs to be scrollable, somehow
19:45:56ashishi think most of the drivers give the touch-event in normalized co-ordinates - so it will not be a problem to handle each screen separately ?
19:46:19saratoga2why scrollable?
19:46:19LloreanI find the button grid pretty useful, personally
19:46:24LloreanAt least it's *very* easy to use with fingers.
19:46:28LloreanAnd you can use it blind.
19:46:53BigBambiI suspect this is one of those you have to try on target to see what is actually possible to use in real life type things
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19:47:44JdGordonashish: by screen I mean the different screens which are drawn on the display (the list, wps, settings, etc), not the real screens on different targets
19:48:14LloreanBigBambi: Explicit touchscreening is okay (clicking on individual list items, dragging scrollbars, etc) if you can see the screen. The other method basically turns the screen into (effectively) the H100 navigation stick. Directions, and a center click. Since each of those uses a significant portion of the screen, you can use it blindly quite easily as long as you know the orientation of the player.
19:48:50LloreanBoth have situations where they're ideal
19:49:03LloreanI admit it'd be really cool if a viewport tag could also be assigned a "button" function for touchscreens.
19:49:08 Quit erlockfisher (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
19:49:11BigBambiI think I'd have to try it in a real use case to see which I prefered, but as I dopn't have a touch screen target, I'm going to keep out of this conversation
19:49:14LloreanSo touching the Play/Pause icon toggled it.
19:49:31JdGordonthats what I want to do.. but have regions seperate from viewports
19:49:40BigBambiThat would be cool
19:49:58JdGordonas well as seeking by clicking/dragging on the progress bar :)
19:50:01LloreanBigBambi: it's not so much "a use case" as each one depends on how you personally use your player. If we want it to be blind usable at all, we have to keep the option in. If we're not gonna have the option, we'd have to drop the one it seems most sighted people would intuitively try to use.
19:50:27JdGordonI dont tihnk we need to worry too much about keeping the blind interface on touchscreen targets
19:50:29LloreanBasically, we need the "less cool" one as the default (since blind people can't navigate to the new one) and the more cool one as an option.
19:50:36JdGordontouchscreen + blind dont mix
19:50:38BigBambiLlorean: That's what I meant - I'm not sure how I'd use it (or how I would prefer it) until I tried
19:50:42LloreanJdGordon: Except we can MAKE them mix, just fine.
19:50:49LloreanAs long as you don't intentionally say "screw blind people"
19:51:05JdGordonwhich im not saying
19:51:17LloreanThen worry about keeping the blind interface, because it's 100% doable.
19:51:30JdGordonas a 2nd option, not as the default
19:51:39LloreanYou can't GET to it if it's the second option
19:51:43*BigBambi hopes ashish is keeping up with this :)
19:51:56LloreanJdGordon: Sighted users can change, blind users can't see to do it.
19:52:03JdGordonblind users wont go for touchscreen targets so its not a big deal
19:52:14JdGordonanyone recommending a touchscreen target to a blind person should be shot
19:52:17LloreanExcept they CAN if you make it usable
19:52:21ashishyes sure , i am watching the discussion and hoping to come up with something concrete
19:52:26LloreanBlind users won't generally go for MP3 players without some method of navigating blind.
19:52:29BigBambiEither way, surely this is a secondary argument
19:52:40LloreanJdGordon: If the touchscreen target ran Rockbox and was usable, WHY would it be bad to recommend?
19:52:44JdGordonan argument is an argument :D
19:52:45LloreanMaybe it meets their needs nicely?
19:53:01JdGordonhow could it possibly meet their needs? you have to see to use it
19:53:01saratoga_labdo blind people use touch screen players? seems like that would be awful
19:53:09LloreanBigBambi: It's only a secondary argument until he uses "well if it's not going to be the default, they can't get to it... so maybe we could remove it"
19:53:14LloreanBigBambi: He *was* hinting that it shouldn't be there at all earlier.
19:53:19 Quit ultrasonic (Connection timed out)
19:53:29LloreanJdGordon: you have to see to use it only if you don't make the blind-usable interface the default.
19:54:07LloreanJdGordon: If it's got a default blind usable interface in Rockbox, you do not need to see to use it. If you don't make it the default, you're saying "screw blind people, sighted people having more fun and not having to change a single option is more important than them being able to USE the player"
19:54:36JdGordonI love this.. so you want 2 totally different button approaches for touchscreen, 1 being explictly for blind users who btw will never buy the target... but then heaven forbid any sort of button options on targets where its actually useful
19:54:40ashishI will look more into the details of rockbox and a touch-target device driver and will come up with some concrete framework to propose
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19:55:00JdGordonashish: great, looking forward to it
19:55:02ashishthanks for helping me understand the requirements :)
19:55:05LloreanWhy don't you send an email to the mailing list saying "We could make the D2 blind usable from the get-go. Instead we're choosing to default install a Rockbox that requires sighted assistance to configure for blind use, the exact opposite of what we've done on other targets. I hope you guys like it."
19:55:27 Quit saratoga_lab ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
19:55:27LloreanJdGordon: I thought you said the alternate buttons SHOULD be there still earlier. Now you're already on "we should remove it"?
19:55:50JdGordonnice way of stretching my meaning....
19:55:57LloreanJdGordon: It's exactly what you're saying.
19:56:04ashishJdGordon: can u give your mail-id or i should mail it on the mailing list ?
19:56:06saratoga_chromedo we actually have blind D2 users?
19:56:11JdGordonno, i dont see why we should dumb down the interface for almost no benefit
19:56:13Lloreanashish: "you", please
19:56:24JdGordonashish: the dev mailing list is best
19:56:32Lloreansaratoga_chrome: Not yet. Do you really want to tell them they can never be users?
19:56:45LloreanJdGordon: "Blind use" is almost no benefit?
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19:57:02saratoga_chromeLlorean: i think thats pretty reasonable, the D2 is a terrible idea for blind users
19:57:03JdGordonfuck, blind users wont go for touchscreen targets
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19:57:13saratoga_chromewe should absolutely tell them not to use it
19:57:14JdGordonyou are being stupid thinking they would
19:57:19Lloreansaratoga_chrome: It's really not with the button interface. At all. It's quite easy to use blind.
19:57:38LloreanJdGordon: It's as easy to use blind as any other player I own.
19:58:12JdGordonhow can you be sure you are pressing the middle button if you arnt looking at the screen?
19:58:16Lloreansaratoga_chrome: The assumption "touchscreen = unusable" is based entirely on the UI design, not the fact that it's a touchscreen.
19:58:19JdGordonblind+touch is never going to work
19:58:34LloreanJdGordon: Because I'm holding the player and can feel how wide it is pretty easily. it's not hard. I've used it blind, I'm not just talking out of my ass here.
19:58:38pixelmaUnhelpful: just tested the latest patch you posted in the pf input task on my Ondio (unaltered) and now up and down scroll the cover view too? I thought "up" was an alternative "select" again... it also surprised me that there was nothing new after my last comment, though you posted afterwards
19:58:40saratoga_chromei don't agree with that, a touchscreen gives you no tactile feedback
19:58:46Lloreansaratoga_chrome: You don't need it.
19:58:48bertrikjhMikeS, is it safe to assume that a target that use CHARGING_TARGET implement the charging_state function?
19:58:55rasherJdGordon: in addition to what Llorean says, blind users are probably better at this too
19:59:03JdGordonLlorean: and you can find the middle button without touchsing the screen at all?
19:59:07Lloreansaratoga_chrome: When browsing, Rockbox gives you vocal feedback. The scrollwheel on the iPod gives you exactly as little feedback.
19:59:13LloreanJdGordon: Yes.
19:59:22LloreanJdGordon: And I guarantee if I can do it, blind users can.
19:59:49LloreanJdGordon: Once you place the player in your hand and do it *once* you can pretty easily remember how to hold and where to put your thumb.
19:59:59JdGordonmeh, whatever...
20:00:26LloreanJdGordon: Why don't you bring it up on -dev then? "Drop touchscreen support for blind users."
20:00:37LloreanIf you feel we shouldn't, it's at least something we should discuss since you're changing one of our general goals.
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20:00:44saratoga_chromewe don't need to drop support
20:00:54saratoga_chromewe can just point out thats its not going to work well
20:00:55JdGordonseen as we dont support any touchscreen atrgets yet i dont see the need
20:01:04Lloreansaratoga_chrome: That's what he's proposing to do. He said the alternate buttons shouldn't be an option.
20:01:04saratoga_chromewhich i think is pretty obvious
20:01:28LloreanIt is 100% unusable blind without the indirect touchscreen use.
20:01:50LloreanWell, 99.8%, you could ensure short lists and guess which word you're clicking on really, really well.
20:02:12saratoga_chromei think his point is that no one is going to care about a second button scheme, not that it shouldn't be allowed
20:04:16Lloreansaratoga_chrome: Well, the thing is the blind-usable one must be the default. Similar to how we have voice enabled by default. You can't start from a non-usable situation and get to a usable one.
20:04:27LloreanBut sighted users can readily start from a less fun one and go to a more fun one. That's just an issue of fun.
20:04:32LloreanNot can/can't use.
20:04:48saratoga_chromeLlorean: I don't agree with that
20:05:00LloreanIf he *really* feels strongly that sighted users *need* to start with the other default, maybe he could implement that first_run.rock idea that was tossed around.
20:05:13Lloreansaratoga_chrome: You think blind usability should be sacrificed for "ooh-aah" factor too?
20:05:41saratoga_chromein this case yes, but I don't see why we need to sacrifice it, rbutility could just setup up things differently for visually impared users
20:06:04saratoga_chromei presume the software is screen reader friendly?
20:06:04Lloreansaratoga_chrome: I invite you to explain to our blind userbase that when we come to a choice between blind usability and "fun", if it's "fun enough" we sacrifice their usability.
20:06:22Lloreansaratoga_chrome: Until RBUtility does that, though, we should default to "usable"
20:06:25saratoga_chromesure just ping me when the time comes
20:06:53jhMikeSbertrik: Why wouldn't it implement charging_state? If you know nothing of the state, I can't imaging being able to use anything other than CHARGING_SIMPLE.
20:07:06LloreanI don't understand why "asking people to change an option" is bad. We pick a lot of defaults that are almost certainly going to be changed, but at least don't cause harm.
20:07:25*gevaerts votes to make ascii sort the default :)
20:07:38Lloreangevaerts: it needs to be (and the other disabled) in the release build! :-P
20:07:52bertrikjhMikeS, yes I was thinking that too, but for example the plugin api only exposes the function for CHARGING_MONITOR
20:07:52saratoga_chromeoptions are annoying, users should have to use them as little as possible
20:08:10Lloreansaratoga_chrome: Ah yes, and "annoying" is so much worse than "cannot be used without a second, sighted human being present"
20:08:24*bluebrother usually uses options only once: set them to the desired value :)
20:08:43Lloreanbluebrother: Which is all that would be necessary here.
20:08:52jhMikeSbertrik: Not >= CHARGING_MONITOR? What uses it?
20:08:55 Quit barrywardell ()
20:09:05bertrikbattery bench
20:09:27LloreanI personally find the "buttons" method the most finger-usable touchscreen device i've ever owned, so I don't buy the "every sighted user will change it" argument either.
20:09:41LloreanIt's basically user-preference, where ONE preference is usable blind, and the other isn't and can't be changed without a sighted person.
20:09:51bluebrotherLlorean: that's my point. I don't think it's a problem to expect a user changing an option once
20:10:05Lloreanbluebrother: Indeed.
20:10:23jhMikeSbertrik: Indeed I think battery_bench should include it for >= CHARGING_MONITOR
20:10:38LloreanThough ideally a first_run.rock would be better.
20:10:45LloreanSince there are so many options people should probably setup the first time.
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20:11:01*bluebrother thinks this numerical sort should be disabled from 3.2 to prevent confusion
20:11:08LloreanAnd it could do things like scan the drive for the largest folder, and pick a "max files in folder" value just over it as the default.
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20:11:30Lloreanbluebrother: I *think* we all sorta agree on that, since the 3.2-branch sort method isn't going to be the final one anyway.
20:11:46LloreanIt either needs to be fixed, or removed, and we can't test the fix to see if it does unexpected things.
20:11:53*bluebrother still somewhat likes the idea of having a configuration frontend in rbutil eventually
20:12:07bluebrotherwhen was 3.2 scheduled for? 23th?
20:12:10rasherI think the safest is to remove the menu code and set the default.
20:12:10Lloreanbluebrother: That would be just as good.
20:12:14LloreanYeah, 23rd
20:12:19Lloreanrasher: Yeah, same here.
20:12:29bluebrotherthat is tomorrow. So no real time for testing at all
20:12:49gevaertsJust make sure that if you remove the option, you update the manual as well (including the changelog)
20:13:07LloreanIf we remove the menu option, will .cfgs with it still load?
20:13:22Llorean(I consider that actually a benefit if the answer is yes, no unexpected behaviour for branch people updating to the release, etc)
20:13:24bluebrotherlooks like someone needs to start a discussion "do we want to mimic major file browsers" on the ml ;-)
20:13:29LloreanNo harm if it doesn't though, not really.
20:13:47 Quit ashish (" ajax IRC Client")
20:13:55rasherLlorean: I believe it should work still, yes
20:14:15*rasher notices that the German translation hasn't been completed
20:14:20shotofaddsEvening all. I thought the original idea for the "touchscreen grid" idea was mainly for plugins, and it is only being used for menus/WPS at the moment because the main rockbox UI isn't usable enough in "touchscreen point" mode?
20:15:03shotofaddsThe d2 is qutie usable in menus in "touchscreen point" mode, but it would need a larger default font
20:15:05Lloreanshotofadds: the original reason doesn't mean other reasons haven't appeared with time.
20:15:12JdGordonshotofadds: yes, it was origionally put in to speed up development and for plugins
20:15:19Lloreanshotofadds: "touchscreen point" mode can't be used blindly.
20:15:42shotofaddsLlorean: blind users are not a reason. I fail to believe a blind user would touch a d2 with a bargepole
20:16:04Lloreanshotofadds: Most blind users wouldn't buy an MP3 player with a complex software in generaly
20:16:06LloreanWe make them blind usable
20:16:11gevaertsshotofadds: of course they wouldn't. That would make it even harder to control!
20:16:12LloreanWe can make the D2 blind usable (already have, honestly)
20:16:38Lloreanshotofadds: Basically, "because it's not usable blind, they won't buy it" also means "once it's usable blind, they might buy it"
20:17:31domonokyas there are many different modes to use a touchscreen, why not make a framework so that users can switch between, buttons,gestures,point mode ?
20:18:00Lloreandomonoky: Probably both "buttons" and "point mode" would use the same gestures, if we're talking simple gestures
20:18:55domonokyi would think that gestures would easily conflict with point mode..
20:19:05shotofaddsI fail to see that making a touchscreen target available to blind users is a sensible goal
20:19:20Lloreanshotofadds: We already *have*
20:19:32LloreanThe suggestion is to take it away.
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20:19:59*gevaerts plays devil's advocate and whispers "configurable buttons"
20:20:08*JdGordon is glad to see at leats one other person in the channel agrees with him
20:20:11Lloreangevaerts: Configurable buttons wouldn't do any good here.
20:20:20domonokyand its not really only "blind users" mode, people prefer different modes, so why not make it switchable :-)
20:20:21JdGordonits the same bloody argument
20:20:32Lloreangevaerts: The question is whether it *has* buttons, or whether the whole screen is "select" and you just select what's under the mouse.
20:20:53gevaertsLlorean: I mean, changing the control scheme is pretty much the same thing as configurable buttons
20:20:56Lloreandomonoky: As I said earlier, I find it more usable than any other touchscreen device I've owned.
20:21:06JdGordonLlorean: how do i do blaa?? its not working.... "are you in blind more or touch mode"... "how do i know? its not working"
20:21:08shotofaddsLlorean: I don't think we need to take anything away. The touchscreen mode can be switched easily. eg. the test_touchscreen plugin already provides a method to do this. iirc mcuelenaere posted a patch to enable switching via a key combo, too
20:21:18JdGordonits the same argument as the reason you are all out against custom buttons
20:21:23Lloreangevaerts: *similar* yes. I guess we could always *just* do the blind-usable one. It's also very usable sighted.
20:22:09LloreanJdGordon: I wouldn't ask that. I would ask "have you changed the touchscreen mode since you installed?"
20:22:21LloreanJdGordon: You basically just blamed the feature on someone asking a dumb support question.
20:22:25JdGordoni dont think so...
20:22:28*gevaerts isn't sure which side he's on
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20:22:43JdGordonLlorean: support is the reason you are against custom buttons
20:22:50*domonoky just wants !all! touchscreen possibilitys :-)
20:22:50*shotofadds would like to see a "proper" touch UI as per JdGordon's customizable WPS idea
20:23:03Lloreanshotofadds: JdGordon wants to disable it by default, so that blind users cannot use the player period without getting another person to help (opposite of standard policy). I want to enable it by default ,because sighted users can disable it easily.
20:23:20shotofadds..but is also quite ok with the current arrangement
20:23:30*gevaerts goes deaf
20:23:31LloreanJdGordon: Would you be happier if I said "we cannot have absolute touchscreen clicking" then?
20:23:38LloreanIt's unnecessary, and if we have to pick one, we should pick the more useful one.
20:23:38 Quit kps (Client Quit)
20:24:05gevaertsThe entire point of touchscreens is that you can point to widgets
20:24:12Lloreanshotofadds: I want an absolute touchscreen as per the WPS idea. I just don't think it should be the default, since blind users can't change it themselves.
20:24:17doomwakei cant get the video player to work or the game boy player does any one know why?
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20:24:30Lloreandoomwake: Are you trying to use them like the manual describes?
20:24:44*domonoky doesnt really understand the problem: if we have both options, and we cant decide on a good Default, we make rbutil switch it on install, as the user wants it.
20:24:47Lloreandoomwake: What, exactly, do you do and what happens?
20:24:53*shotofadds points to bluebrother's RbUtil configuration frontend...
20:24:59Lloreandomonoky: Someone needs to code this, but yes, that would be fine.
20:25:07doomwakethey dont even show up whe ni but the video or the game on the drive
20:25:12saratoga_chromeheh thats what I said like 15 minutes ago
20:25:14LloreanBut we've brought up the idea of RButil configuring other options on install before, and nobody's coded it yet.
20:25:26Lloreandoomwake: What extension(s) do the files have?
20:25:40domonokyLlorean: give me two days, and the need to have it rbutil (release a touchscreen traget( and we will have that..
20:26:03doomwakethe videos i converted with the vlc .bat file and the game are gb and .gbc
20:26:04*shotofadds was about to say that.. the lack of a releaseable target is the main problem i guess
20:26:08Lloreandomonoky: There are plenty of other options that could be configured helpfully on first install I think
20:26:29Lloreandoomwake: "converted with the vlc .bat file" doesn't tell me anything. That's not a file we make, so I don't know what it does.
20:26:37shotofaddsPresumably if "absolute point mode" were enabled by RbUtil a number other options would be needed too: font size, WPS...
20:26:40Lloreandoomwake: What do you have the File View mode set to (this is described in the manual)
20:26:52 Quit PaulJam (".")
20:26:54domonokyyes, but my point is, that this isnt a hard task, i just needs some coding. If we really need it, we will have it fast :-)
20:27:08Lloreanshotofadds: We could probably use the same default theme for both modes - blind people won't care if the font sizes are quite big.
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20:27:36doomwakedefalut i guess
20:27:39Lloreandomonoky: Well, the default still needs to be set just in case someone resets settings on target. But at least, in that case, there's less argument against it being the blind usable one.
20:27:47Lloreandoomwake: Check the value. Please don't guess.
20:28:52doomwakewheres the setting?
20:29:02domonokyLlorean: jup, so problem solved. No need for jdgordon to steal touchscreen targets out of blind users hands :-)
20:29:07shotofaddsLlorean: yes, that sounds reasonable.
20:29:15Lloreandoomwake: As I said, it's described in the manual. It's in the quick screen by default, it's also in the normal menus
20:29:31shotofaddswe just need a working target now ;-)
20:30:29*shotofadds pokes preglow about that SD driver (we have udelay() now, if that's any help...)
20:31:53 Join jordoex [0] (
20:32:18doomwake ehere in the maual does it talk about that in the settings page?
20:33:05 Quit jordoex (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:33:08Lloreandoomwake: It would take me just as long to search as you.
20:33:30Unhelpfulpixelma: i have up-as-select in my local branch, i've been going through one device at a time and tweaking/testing. i'll try to get what i've got so far on the FS task tonight.
20:33:42doomwakecoll thanks i got it
20:33:47doomwaketha was the matter
20:33:55doomwakethanks Llorean
20:34:57 Quit taylor_ ("Leaving")
20:37:21shotofaddsLlorean: that reminds me, I have some code here to improve the accuracy of the touchscreen driver slightly. It's still not perfect, but certainly an improvement. I'll clean it up and commit soon.
20:37:32Lloreanshotofadds: Cool
20:39:51shotofaddsLlorean: how would you feel about me committing FS #9129 as an interim measure? It might help people become more familiar with both touchscreen modes if there is an easy way to switch. I know we usually steer clear of half-baked ideas, but the D2 is a port-in-progress after all...
20:41:35Lloreanshotofadds: Personally I'd prefer it be a regular setting (saved in .cfg, set via the menu)
20:42:00LloreanIt's an in-progress port, but if you start assigning buttons, and people use them (like people seem to use the D2 port quite a bit already) it can be hard to change later.
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20:42:31shotofaddsLlorean: a real setting is more useful in the long run, certainly. I'll have a look into it.
20:42:55LloreanCool, thanks.
20:45:09shotofaddsLlorean: I'd also like to see FS #9875 in the main build as it is a feature I use a LOT in the OF, but I fear it's a bit unconventional for Rockbox...
20:45:51*shotofadds will be back later
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20:46:07Lloreanshotofadds: People have requested a similar feature for other targets and it's been rejected.
20:46:18Lloreanshotofadds: Plus, with the 3x3 grid, you can turn off hold and skip tracks blind with your finger. ;)
20:50:44*bluebrother wonders how hard it would be to make the build system output a file containing all settings with allowed values
20:51:10gevaertswould be useful for the manual as well
20:52:08Nico_PJdGordon: here?
20:52:17bluebrotherthat could be put on the player (as rockbox-info.txt) and get used by rbutil to allow changing the settings. Has the major advantage that it'll always match the build on the player
20:52:46gevaertsDoes FS #9875 basically make it ignore hold?
20:55:26 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
20:55:37 Quit FlynDice (Remote closed the connection)
20:56:03Lloreangevaerts: Basically hold only affects the touchscreen, and one of the three buttons.
20:56:38*gevaerts doesn't like that :\
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20:58:07Lloreangevaerts: Well, we could do something like have a "screen off" option in the WPS context menu.
20:58:40LloreanBut it's still very, very specialized
20:59:10LloreanAnd again, the directional input mode *does* allow in-pocket use anyway. *I* haven't encountered the problem. :)
20:59:31gevaertsThe point is that I like hold to mean "as long as nobody touches the hold switch, *nothing* will happen"
20:59:41LloreanI agree.
20:59:48LloreanAnd we've closed similar tasks on just that reasoning.
21:00:17rasherShould we add a header to the theme .cfg/.wps files in wps/ ?
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21:15:08rasherbluebrother: so where would be the best place for a general message that doesn't indicate an error?
21:16:05rasherbluebrother:"> ?
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21:16:45bluebrotherlooks good to me. We could always display the status in a message box after the window opens if it's non-empty.
21:17:22rasherI imagine just changing the template will be good enough. It's unlikely to need changing often, I imagine
21:17:26bluebrotherthough in _that_ case having an optional localization would be nice. Though that would only require rbutil to also check for msg.<langid> keys
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21:22:12rasherIt's not exactly vital information, and prone to changing suddenly
21:22:22gevaertsI guess ThemeGuidelines will need to be reviewed
21:23:25rasherJust add validating code to the themesite and let it sort itself out!
21:23:38 Quit jhMikeS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:24:42gevaertsthe zipfile naming guidelines seems not to match the new site
21:24:45rasherI think it looks fairly good, except for the patches part
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21:25:25rashergevaerts: In which way?
21:25:36 Quit dfkt (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:26:57gevaertsnot sure. Things like "Once submitted to this site, that portion of the filename will almost always be removed before uploading"
21:27:39rasherAh yes
21:30:51rasherbluebrother: Seems good
21:31:34bluebrotherit's always displayed if errormsg isn't empty or missing
21:32:42gevaerts"Please check back later for more themes"?
21:33:55BigBambirasher: Good news about cabbie v2 - the theme site can legitimately have my oh-so-different derivation now!
21:35:17rasherYes, great news indeed
21:37:44gevaertsrasher: I'd change "Check back later" into "If you don't find a theme you like, please try again later"
21:38:07LloreanYeah, "Check back later" seems to suggest you won't find anything, go ahead and close the window
21:38:15rashergevaerts: You do it, it's getting embarrassing now
21:39:11*gevaerts checks out first :)
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21:40:49gevaertsrasher: done
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21:43:48Nico_Prasher: I've been looking at the theme site, looks nice :)
21:44:19rasherI'm starting to think it's ready to go live
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21:44:50rasherStill some things that would be nice to have for the future, but nothing that must be done now, I think
21:45:23gevaertsIt would be really nice to have it live at time of the 3.2 release
21:47:24rasherI think so too, but that needs another rbutil release done.. now
21:49:32Nico_Pis it running on the official webserver?
21:50:52rasherBut a slightly earlier version has been tested there
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21:55:26n1srasher: about r20462, i am pretty sure that removing the "usbstack" lines means that those strings are now completely omitted for targets that had them previously -> ID's change, voice files break. Or am i overlooking something?
21:56:39n1sI also think the lang system could use some tweaks to make handling this stuff easier
21:57:01rasheroh huh, that might be true
21:57:58BigBambihmmm, the text editor plugin doesn't handle usb insert
21:58:06BigBambiIt just sits there as if nothing has happened
21:58:50rashern1s: I think you're right. This is unfortunate.
21:59:02 Quit Lear ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5b4pre/20090321055010]")
21:59:25n1sshouldn't matter much on trunk, we might as well take the opportunity to clean out deprecated strings etc
21:59:47rasherNow is actually a better time than most, I think
22:01:08 Join perrikwp [0] (i=4aa794a0@gateway/web/ajax/
22:02:49bluebrotheranother rbutil release isn't problematic at all −− there weren't changes that could break things. At least as far as I can tell :)
22:03:13bluebrothermaybe we should bump to rbutil 1.2 for the "new" feature ;)
22:03:40gevaertsrbutil 1.2, "3.2 edition" :)
22:04:13rasherHonestly I think you should just bump it to 3.2 and only release with Rockbox
22:04:48Lloreanrasher: Probably not worth doing, or when we release Rockbox 3.3 we'll *need* a RButil 3.3 even if it doesn't need to actually be updated.
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22:05:02rasherLlorean: I don't see why that's so bad?
22:05:13Lloreanrasher: Half the time we don't even have an up-to-date OSX build anyway
22:05:24rasher*that* does need fixing
22:06:02LloreanAs well, if we need to fix RButil to 3.2.1 because of a bug, do we upgrade normal builds to 3.2.1 so people think they're linked?
22:06:33LloreanIf we have a new feature between 3.2 and 3.3, do we not release a new RBUtil, or do we give it a point release number (3.2.1), and if so, if Rockbox hits 3.2.2 from point releases does RButil share that versioning?
22:06:52LloreanI think matching the release numbers can lead to a lot of confused users if we need point releases.
22:07:07gevaertsAlso, are we going to match bootloader versions as well then?
22:07:25 Join ace1241 [0] (n=4c5a6119@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
22:07:26LloreanIt's easier (in my mind) for it *just* to be a separate program.
22:07:52ace1241hello, can someone help me with rockbox on a 5g 80gb ipod..? i tried looking in the forum but it wont work
22:08:22rasherMaybe. I still think only releasing at releases is a good idea though.
22:08:42ace1241the bootloader just won't detect my ipod
22:08:55LloreanWe don't provide "current" builds of it like we do with Rockbox, so we're basically denying non-compilers features.
22:09:01gevaertsace1241: the bootloader, or the installer?
22:09:06ace1241the bootloader
22:09:16Lloreanace1241: The bootloader is already installed on your player then?
22:09:20rasherLlorean: we could do rc builds
22:09:28Lloreanace1241: Because anything that runs on your PC is *not* the bootloader.
22:09:35ace1241okay than the installer
22:09:40Lloreanace1241: Which installer?
22:09:44ace1241the patcher
22:09:56ace1241it says searching for devices, and says no ipod detected
22:10:02Lloreanace1241: What, exactly, is it named. Do you mean "ipodpatcher"?
22:10:13ace1241the ipod is in disk mode, itunes is off
22:10:13LloreanWhy aren't you using Rockbox Utility?
22:10:17ace1241i tried it
22:10:23ace1241won't detect my ipod
22:10:26ace1241so i tried to do it manually
22:10:31gevaertswhat OS are you using?
22:10:40Lloreanace1241: Are you 100% sure yours is a 5G, and not a Classic?
22:11:24n1sace1241: do you run with root/admin privileges
22:11:25Lloreanace1241: It boots the apple firmware and works normally?
22:11:49Lloreanace1241: We can't know who you were answering with that, please specify.
22:12:39ace1241the ipod works fine, it works with itunes, and im in an admin account
22:13:00Lloreanace1241: What are the last 3 digits of the serial number?
22:13:05LloreanIt should be on the back of the iPod
22:13:47LloreanThat's an iPod Classic
22:13:48LloreanNot a 5g
22:13:53ace1241i see
22:14:37ace1241oh well
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22:15:42rasherbluebrother: I think you should go ahead with a new rbutil release, even if we don't make it in time with the theme site, it'll be nice if people download the "proper" rbutil version when getting the release so they can use that later
22:16:17bluebrotherace1241: well, Rockbox Utility should have told you that you have an "unsupported player variant".
22:16:51Lloreanrasher: Agreed, regardless of when we do releases, one is due now with the new feature.
22:17:33ace1241oh it just said no ipod detected, and uh it gave me a wrong mount point once
22:17:34ace1241but thats it
22:17:41ace1241but since rockbox doesn't work on classic, oh well
22:17:54rasherNot sure if I made the point. When we release, and people rush (that's how it is in my mind) to get rbutil, it'll be nice if they get one that can talk to the theme site, so they won't have to upgrade again in a moment
22:18:53Lloreanrasher: Yeah, and I'm agreeing with that. Since RBUtil now has the theme site functionality working, whether the site's there or it just displays a "Not ready yet" message still, the new one should be made available
22:19:50rasherOh dear, the 64-bit version is woefully out of date
22:20:13rasherI should fix.
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22:30:21rasherkugel: are you fine with relicensing your DancePuffDuo port?
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22:31:56rasherbluebrother: Does rbutil want any particular version of qt?
22:31:59kugelrasher: of course
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22:35:02JdGordonbluebrother: re: getting the avilable settings from build... its possible but it all depends how much you want to stuff around with gcc... it will probably be easier to write a simple parser in perl or something to do it
22:37:51kugelJdGordon: the statusbar weirdness was caused by my patch btw ;)
22:38:00JdGordonoh good
22:38:29domonokyrasher: qt4.4.1 or later i think
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22:40:05bluebrotherrasher: you need at least Qt 4.3
22:40:38bluebrotherthe project file checks that. But I haven't build with 4.3 for a while now
22:43:40kugelJdGordon: I had some time to figure out the wps update/refresh/display code a bit better, which led to me doing another small rework
22:45:04JdGordonis it over all getting neater?
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22:46:55kugeldepends of your definition of getting neater I guess
22:46:55JdGordonkugel: just to make sure we are both thinking the same... you're moving it towards being able to be redrawn at any time very simply?
22:47:03JdGordoni.e if the statusbar was the wps....
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22:48:05 Quit parafin ("So long and thanks for all the fish")
22:48:06kugelNo, I rather try to clean things up
22:48:23kugel" if the statusbar was the wps...." I don't understand
22:48:31mc2739I have some patches for lcd_e200v2 that I want to put on Flyspray. Is it best to put up 1 patch, or a patch for each change?
22:49:14kugel1 file changed, 1 patch, sounds sane to me
22:49:19JdGordonkugel: the grand plan for the wps is to be able to make the current statusbar a "wps" (of some sort... undecided how just yet, but thats the plan)... so just keep that in mind and we shuold be good
22:49:31mc2739ok, thanks
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22:50:40kugelJdGordon: no, the work I did yesterday doesn't touch statusbar at all
22:50:54JdGordon... no... i know....
22:51:09JdGordoni'm saying the goal is to eventually replace the statusbar with the current wps... somehow
22:51:09kugelYou didn't see what I did, how do you know?
22:51:22JdGordonbah... dont worry...
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22:51:43kugelno, I don't think my work is going against this plan
22:51:56soapwhy is GNU unifont only delivered in the .zip as 16? Is this just momentum, or is there a solid reason nobody has made a 10,12, 14, 18, 20, etc?
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22:53:59kugelJdGordon: but even if it did, I don't code around very lousy future ideas in my mind. If it's concrete, ok, but just having the plan to wps'ify the statusbar doesn't affect my doing.
22:54:08bluebrotherhmm, the status message isn't shown if no theme is available at all
22:54:47kugelbut if it makes you happy, I changed one function to get a struct gui_wps as parameter, instead of using the global one, so if there's more than 1 wps (e.g. a statusbar) it should be better prepared
22:57:48amiconnsoap: It's the only version of unifont that exists
22:58:54rasherIt's a bitmap font, drawn at 8/16x16.
22:59:46soapthat explains that!
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23:04:37pixelmabluebrother: re. the settings output - there even is a fixme in the manual appendix for it ...and speaking of the appendix... would you have an idea how a blank page at the beginning of the file format section in the pdf can be generated? Seems to only happen in hwcodec manuals, e.g. OndioSP, page 112 where the file formats table is a bit longer afaik (supported music formats included not in an extra table)
23:06:07pixelmathe table itself fits on a page though
23:06:36pixelmawith headlines and all
23:07:16bluebrotherpixelma: I can imagine that happening by a paragraph break following the table. \opt also had a tendency of adding unwanted whitespace. You could try adding a comment at the end of the \opt{} and the empty line above
23:08:12*bluebrother goes building that manual
23:09:50pixelmaI already stared for a while but was expecting something in the beginning of the file_formats.tex or something with the page style, will look some more
23:10:30bluebrotherjust tried building ondiosp, the table is on p114 for me and isn't followed by an empty page :o
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23:11:37pixelmacould be because of the pictureflow addition, but I saw that in a test built FM-Rec manual with the change too
23:12:02pixelmathe blank page would be before the table
23:12:28pixelmabut it already has the "File formats" headline
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23:13:00bluebrotherbtw, why is there a subsection A.1 at all?
23:13:30bluebrotherah, ok. That means the table got too long. You could try to \enlargethispage{somespace} in front of the table
23:13:37pixelmaprobably because the swcodec have two tables
23:14:30bluebrotherah, yes. Missed that.
23:14:57pixelmano, I didn't mean a seperate headline, just the page "name"
23:15:26pixelmathe headline itself is on the same page as the table and everything seems to fit
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23:15:48bluebrotherhmm, the table should be {lllX} instead of {llXX}. The "extension" field gets too wide otherwise.
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23:19:38bluebrotherbut that breaks for swcodec because of this long reference style. hmpf.
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23:24:23rasherbluebrother: is qt-4.5.0 good or bad?
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23:27:20bluebrotherrasher: I've built a w32 binary of rbutil using it. Didn't notice any drawbacks (though the static binary got slightly larger)
23:27:31bluebrotherat least it's sufficient for building rbutil ;-)
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23:39:02rasherbluebrother: any good configure options I should include that aren't on RockboxUtilityDevelopment?
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23:40:22saratoga_chromebluebrother: does microsd really break absolute playlist paths on the sansa?
23:40:40JdGordonkugel: very lousy future ideas? wtf?
23:41:20bluebrotherrasher: if you just want to build a "normal" binary there's nothing to care about. For static binaries: none that I know (yet) of −− I've only built it for w32 so far
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23:42:05bluebrothersaratoga_chrome: no, but I guess if he has the playlist somewhere in /Playlists and it has an absolute path /microSD1 it breaks as the card is shown as <microSD1>
23:42:17bluebrotherat least from my knowledge
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23:46:28kugelJdGordon: I meant "loose", sorry
23:46:33pixelmaugh, something's messy
23:46:44rasherpixelma: The lang header...
23:47:37pixelmadamn, forgotten again... and viewvc seems to be a bit confused too
23:48:03JdGordonkugel: yeah, only a tiny difference between those two words....
23:48:07*JdGordon calms down a bit
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23:49:23kugelJdGordon: Not that it's a bad idea, but I have no ideas regarding it, and I haven't seen concrete ideas or even code by other people, so I'll more or less ignore it for now
23:50:34JdGordonjust dont make it any harder to work in than it is already and you'll be ok
23:50:50JdGordonthe reason its not in yet is because the current code wont play nice at all
23:51:00JdGordonthere is a proof of concept patch around for ti thouhg
23:51:38 Join FlynDice [0] (
23:52:05kugelJdGordon: linuxstb's one?
23:52:36kugelI surely don't plan make re-use of code any harder

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