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#rockbox log for 2009-06-22

00:00:07 Join BeChris [0] (i=5c89760a@gateway/web/freenode/x-10f8b5231d478a5e)
00:00:09CIA-70New commit by 03zagor (r21461): Specify -s to perl.
00:00:17 Quit stripwax ("http://miranda-im.org")
00:00:21CIA-70New commit by 03kugel (r21462): FS #10365 - Optional debug output for albumart.c ...
00:00:22Mikachuheh, the upload didn't even print "time spent", it was too fast
00:00:24 Quit BeChris (Client Quit)
00:00:26kugelbusy commit bot :P
00:00:29 Quit notlistening (Remote closed the connection)
00:00:30Mikachuoh that was the .log
00:00:33kugelBlue_Dude: thanks for that!
00:00:43Mikachu3 seconds for the zip
00:00:53Mikachudoes it just build the current revision over and over?
00:00:56saratogaso the client will update itself as you push new versions to svn?
00:00:59 Join BeChris [0] (i=5c89760a@gateway/web/freenode/x-7ee6cc8b6c3ad698)
00:01:11BeChrisHello everybody
00:01:12Blue_DudeWelcome! I was trying to debug another module and had to wade through all the chaff. They just had to go.
00:01:23Mikachu(i'm not going to be running a build server, i'm just testing)
00:01:32ZagorMikachu: yes, it's currently not doing anything useful other than testing
00:01:36Mikachu(s/server/client/)
00:02:18 Quit `VL ("happines is a positive cache flow")
00:03:20BeChrisI'm looking for someone who might help for my png viewer plugin
00:03:36MikachuZagor: any reason it prints the full path for the .log and only the filename for the .zip?
00:03:46ZagorMikachu: the idea with this new build client is that you can just run it an hour or two if you like and then kill it.
00:03:54ZagorMikachu: no reason :)
00:04:17*kugel received 4 buils
00:04:18Mikachuokay :)
00:04:37Zagorkugel: yes, the server feeds everyone four builds.
00:04:38kugelZagor: that's a major improvement imo
00:05:10MikachuBeChris: fwiw i have this super advanced plugin lying around http://comm.it.cx/?p=rockbox-svn.git;a=blob_plain;f=apps/plugins/bmp.c;h=288921c2c63d1a0212958bb698519f7291abe63a;hb=33d5e642cf73fad14b304064162cf1877a0ea9e4
00:05:24*Mikachu idly wonders why that url has two hashes
00:06:26CIA-70New commit by 03bertrik (r21463): Fix more missing mutex_init calls.
00:06:29Mikachuthat probably doesn't help you :)
00:06:39BeChrisMikachu: I'm a bit farther than that :)
00:06:44Mikachuhehe, okay
00:07:30MikachuZagor: what are the () numbers, just process id?
00:07:35BeChrisEven If you don't help, you might be interrested to test : see FS #9493
00:07:35Zagoryay, someone got killed :)
00:07:37Mikachuchild: sansac200 (27688) done
00:07:47ZagorMikachu: yes, pid. debug leftovers.
00:08:01Mikachui was confused first because they happened to be close to current svn revs :)
00:08:09Zagorhehe
00:10:11rasherZagor: Can you follow what happens somewhere?
00:10:26Zagoryes I'm looking at the buildmaster output
00:10:46Mikachudid you see me close mine?
00:10:48rasherActually, can *I* follow what happens
00:10:59Zagorrasher: no, not yet
00:11:09ZagorI spotted a bug in the master. restarting...
00:11:32*Mikachu thinks he had pretty good bugs found / time spent ratio
00:11:39kugeluh nice
00:11:50saratogavery neat
00:11:50rasherZagor: What happens between the "Starting client" and HELLO? That takes a while..
00:11:55ZagorMikachu: heh, yeah
00:11:57kugelit automagically restarted
00:12:20Zagorrasher: it tries to connect to buildmaster. I had the master down a couple of seconds.
00:12:37rasherAh, that would do it
00:13:33 Quit ender` (" On the contrary, if you never procreate, neither will your kids.")
00:14:27Zagorwow, the buildmaster bandwidth is a real bottleneck
00:14:34Zagorgood thing we keep building!
00:16:36Zagor100 builds not complete, 7 clients. 24 builds in progress
00:17:19rasherurgh, why's it doing make -j$something?
00:17:28 Join stripwax [0] (n=Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk)
00:17:36Mikachuyou'd probably want to be able to configure that
00:17:44Mikachumaybe just use $MAKEOPTS?
00:17:45rasherOr just respect MAKEFLAGS ...
00:17:47rasheror opts
00:17:50saratogait looks like it tries to pick a good thread number
00:17:54rasherI always forget
00:18:13Zagorit reads /proc/cpuinfo and does -j cores+1
00:18:23saratogawhy does it use zip instead of 7zip?
00:18:38saratogai guess too much work to rezip on the other end?
00:18:39rasherSure, but why not just respect MAKEFLAGS?
00:18:41Zagorthat's a question for the makefiles
00:19:41Zagorlooking at MAKEFLAGS makes sense
00:20:06rasherI mean, why do -j at all? Can't people set MAKEFLAGS as they please?
00:20:13saratogaeasier
00:20:16Zagor.j is faster. we want speed.
00:20:41rasherZagor: You're overriding what I set in MAKEFLAGS. That's mean
00:20:57ZagorI agree, we should respect MAKEFILES. I'll look at that.
00:21:02 Quit nibbler_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:21:03ZagorMAKEFLAGS, I mean
00:21:31rasherBut why not rely on that?
00:21:36rasherRather than doing the guessing
00:22:01Mikachuusually it would be unset and waste 75% on new cpus?
00:22:07rasherDo people not set makeflags?
00:22:08Zagorbecause then we have to make everyone set up MAKEFLAGS to get best speed. I'd rather have those who _don't_ want max speed set up exceptions.
00:22:13BeChrisgoing to bed
00:22:15BeChrisSee U
00:22:29rasherActually I have make -j 4
00:22:31Zagorrasher: I think most people don't.
00:22:41rasherThen they lack discipline!
00:22:46Zagor:)
00:22:51Mikachui didn't even know it existed, i have MAKEOPTS for gentoo though
00:23:03rasherI think that's different
00:23:06 Quit BeChris ("Page closed")
00:23:21*JdGordon has -j6 set for the rbclient build.. and it freezes firefox when a build happens :)
00:23:24Mikachuit's not very uncommon for makefiles to fail on parallel builds
00:23:45rasherI wonder what's with the makeopts/makeflags thing
00:23:50rasherman make only mentions makeflags here
00:23:55ZagorMikachu: exactly. we mark each build mt-safe or not, and only run -j on mt-safe ones.
00:23:59Mikachuopts is just a gentoo thing
00:24:03saratogai just do make -j, it didn't seem much different then make -j4
00:24:15Mikachusaratoga: how much ram do you have? :)
00:24:17 Quit bmbl ("Bye!")
00:24:19saratoga4GB
00:24:37rasherZagor: I'd rather have the makefiles fixed..
00:24:39Zagor-j forks massive amounts of processes. it runs _every_ file in parallell. 50-200
00:24:58Zagorrasher: it's not an either/or thing.
00:25:10Zagoralso some targets simply don't benefit from -j, such as the manuals
00:25:16Zagorthey are very linear
00:26:07rasherIf a build *fails* with anything but -j1, surely that's a bug?
00:26:15Zagoryes
00:26:24 Quit CathodeRayTube ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
00:27:07rasherAre you hiding those bugs by not doing -j for them?
00:27:12rasherOr did I just misunderstand
00:27:21 Quit bertrik ("De groeten")
00:27:34Zagorno. some targets don't run faster with -j, because they only run one command at a time
00:27:48Zagorin those cases it's better to build 4 different targets in parallell instead of running -j
00:28:05saratogahow hard would it be to do that?
00:28:07 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection)
00:28:21rasherZagor: Ah so it's not so much mt-safe, as mt-useful
00:28:27Zagorsaratoga: it's implemented already. not tested yet though.
00:28:31Zagorrasher: exactly
00:28:46*Mikachu only has the one core
00:28:47rasherI can dig that
00:28:56 Quit n1s (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:29:06Blue_Dudekugel: Just a heads up: FS #10364 is still active.
00:32:03TorneFS #9872 can go too if someone is doing that, an equivalent (but not the same diff) has been committed
00:32:13Tornei put the details in a comment
00:37:08saratogais the client now just building endlessly ?
00:37:42Zagoryes, it's just for testing. the server starts a new build round as soon as the previous has ended.
00:38:06saratogawill this work on cygwin?
00:38:24rashersaratoga: Wellcome to slowtown. Population: you
00:38:39saratogai've got a windows Pentium D machine sitting around here
00:38:57rasherMore than likely, you're better off running a vm
00:39:22rasherI don't see any reason why it wouldn't work on cygwin though
00:39:47Zagordoes "uname -o" work in cygwin?
00:40:19saratogait returns "cygwin"
00:41:10Zagorgood
00:41:55 Join Liam [0] (n=liam-mic@5ac3b706.bb.sky.com)
00:42:08LiamAwrite, can someone help me?
00:42:14Zagorok guys, thanks for testing. I'm shutting down buildmaster now.
00:42:27LiamI want to change like the background of my ipod nano 3rd gen, was wondering how i'd do it/ is it possible?
00:42:33saratogahow close to ready is the new build system?
00:42:58rasherLiam: Rockbox does not run on the nano 3rd gen. We cannot help you.
00:42:59Zagorpretty close. there's a few small issues with the build handouts in the master.
00:43:06LiamDammit
00:43:09 Part Liam
00:43:11saratogaand i guess user names and passwords
00:43:18Zagorright :)
00:45:23***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:45:48Mikachuand ssl certs? or what is the idea?
00:46:18Zagorpossibly ssl certs. we'll probably start with plain user:pass though.
00:50:56ZagorI'm going away on a one-week vacation on tuesday, so maybe we'll delay launch until I get back
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00:56:24 Quit Zagor ("Clint excited")
01:00
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01:07:56 Part safetydan ("Leaving.")
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01:09:13*JdGordon doesnt know how to tackle his old(ish) wps ram usage patch.... try to figure out the killer bug? or start again? :'(
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01:33:13 Nick zitune is now known as zitune[afk] (n=zitune@bearstech/zitune)
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01:38:33LloreanJdGordon: I find restarting things often leads to me tackling certain details in new ways I hadn't thought of before. There could be other benefits from starting over too.
01:39:14JdGordonyeah, im having a bit of trouble syncing it so maybe restarting is the way to go
01:40:46 Quit faemir (Remote closed the connection)
01:44:02 Quit stripwax ("http://miranda-im.org")
01:49:18Greek-Boynybody here have trouble playing FLAC's in rockbox?
01:49:32LloreanWhat sort of trouble are you having?
01:50:15Greek-Boyit does a dump after a few seconds of playing it
01:50:17Greek-Boylocks up
01:50:19Greek-Boygotta reboot
01:50:30linuxstbOn what device are you running Rockbox?
01:50:48Greek-BoyIPOD Video 80GB but i upgraded the hard drive to 220GB
01:50:59Greek-Boyor 240GB i think
01:51:03LloreanHave you tried the 30GB build?
01:51:12Greek-Boyi had to do my own build
01:51:25Greek-Boybecause the sector size was too small in the 80GB build
01:51:27LloreanWe don't provide support for custom builds.
01:51:43LloreanBut you should try modifying a 30GB build instead and see if that helps
01:51:49linuxstbGreek-Boy: Do other formats work OK, or do you just have FLAC?
01:51:59Greek-Boyother formats work great
01:52:03Greek-Boyits just a FLAC issue
01:52:10Greek-Boyi used a SVN source to build
01:52:32 Join funman [0] (n=fun@rockbox/developer/funman)
01:52:39linuxstbAnd the same FLACs play fine on a PC? Is there anything unusual about the FLACs? e.g. 24-bit?
01:55:03Greek-Boyyeah the same FLAC's play
01:55:14 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
01:55:44LloreanI would still suggest first attempting a 30GB build.
01:55:57Greek-Boylinuxstb: Forgive me for asking but where would I check if the FLAC is 24-bit?
01:56:48 Join Strath [0] (n=Strath__@173-23-45-236.client.mchsi.com)
01:57:22Mikachuwhy would the 30GB build help if it was originally 80GB?
01:57:24linuxstbLlorean: I wouldn't expect that to help - the codec buffer is loaded at the end of RAM, so I would expect it to crash immediately. Also Greek-Boy said other formats work fine.
01:57:46Mikachuor did you misread the 8 as a 3? did i? :)
01:58:03Lloreanlinuxstb: Most problems with the build difference seem to show up "about 20 minutes in" which suggests it's end-of-buffer behaviour for some reason. you'd reach that much sooner with FLAC.
01:58:25LloreanMikachu: Because many 80gb devices still have 32MB of RAM for whatever reason. Often they're refurbished.
01:58:32Mikachuaha
01:59:07LloreanAnd it's a quick, simple test that can be got out of the way in a couple minutes. If it doesn't work, nothing too terribly costly lost. If it does, problem solved.
01:59:22Mikachudefinitely
01:59:30Greek-BoyI wish I could check if its a ram issue or not. Is there a way to check the ram on the ipod?
01:59:42LloreanAs I said, build a 30GB build and try it instead.
01:59:47Lloreanif it's a RAM issue, the 30GB build will work fine.
01:59:52LloreanWith sector size changes, that is
02:00
02:00:02MikachuGreek-Boy: 30GB ipods have 32MB ram and 80GB ones have 64MB, but maybe yours has 32MB
02:00:19StrathIf anyone here is working on the SanDisk Sansa View port, I would be interested in offering my sevices to further the cause. If not, any tips from others here on were to get started?
02:00:19Mikachuif that wasn't clear from the above
02:00:21Greek-Boyok
02:00:38saratogaStrath: obo is working on it, you should ask him
02:00:39Greek-Boyon another topic, will we see better video support in Rockbox in the near future? I thought I would be able to play DivX off it...
02:00:49MikachuGreek-Boy: unlikely
02:00:49Straththanks saratoga
02:00:59saratogabut hes been sending regular emails to the list with his progress, have you seen them?
02:01:30Strathi've seen a few forum posts, but i don't think the email lists
02:01:38Mikachuit is a gsoc project, right?
02:01:46Greek-BoyMikachu: I see. Well anyway its still a good solution for me. I want to be able to listen to FLAC's. Especially in my car...
02:02:05Greek-BoyMikachu: Can rockbox be connected to a kenwood head unit in ipod mode?
02:02:11Mikachuno idea
02:02:23Mikachui don't have any accessories, even a dock
02:04:36Greek-Boyok
02:09:11saratogaStrath: i think more help disassemblying would be welcome
02:10:02linuxstbGreek-Boy: BTW, you don't use an apostrophe for plurals - e.g. "FLACs"...
02:11:15Greek-Boylinuxstb: Thank you for the info. :-)
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02:37:20Strathrom disassembly? i can do that
02:38:35Greek-Boylinuxstb: Whats the coolest thing that you do on your rockbox?
02:38:54funmansaratoga: did you get my message about limiting Fuze RAM ? (padding current memory layout)
02:40:26funmanStrath: just check the Sansa view wiki page linked from "status for work in progress ports", linked from the main page
02:40:38 Join cool_walking_ [0] (i=cb3b81c3@gateway/web/freenode/x-1ffdabecd1bf3972)
02:40:50Blue_DudeI just posted another teeny patch at FS #10366. This one also removes nuisance debug messages. Please take a look.
02:40:52funmanthe current target is lcd support, it would make debugging much easier
02:41:33saratogafunman: yes but I forgot to try it since i didn't have a linux machine handy this weekend, will take a look now
02:42:20saratogado you have a link to it in the logs?
02:42:22funmansaratoga: i meet the same problem than on the clip on the c200v2 (which has 2MB of RAM, and a slightly smaller audiobuffer since it's color and the lcd framebuffer doesn't fit in iram
02:42:49saratogaah found it
02:43:26funmanhttp://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20090619#14:14:39
02:44:15funmani started hacking but i think i need expert advise about buffering (i enabled logf in playback.c and buffering.c)
02:44:43funmanperhaps FS #9332 would help also
02:45:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:46:30saratogafunman: does this look right? http://pastebin.com/m6b5c27e
02:47:36funmansaratoga: yes looks very right : just check in debug menu -> buffering thread that you have something in the lines of 32kB audio buffer
02:47:59saratogawell i only consumed 5MB of RAM so i should have more then that right?
02:48:19funmanif you use album art you might need a patched i have quoted on irc recently (but i'd like advice from someone knowing buffering like nico_p)
02:48:50funmanmy fuze build have ram usage: 1147176, so you migt need a bit more :)
02:48:58saratogafunman: have you tried shrinking the PCM buffer on the clip to see if that helps?
02:49:39funmanlinuxstb told me the PCM buffer should be at least 1s (like it is now) for crossfading to work. But he wasn't 100% sure about it.
02:50:19funmanAnyway I think the PCM buffer should be much largest than the audiobuffer (at least 10 times more, since I think 10:1 is a common compression ratio for lossy codecs?)
02:50:22saratogai get alloc is 77KB, is that the audiobuffer?
02:50:54funmanalloc = x/available_audiobuffer
02:51:42funmanx being the size of audiobuffer used by real file buffers, and additional buffers (like file descriptors)
02:52:14funmanthe available audiobuffer is the size of audiobuffer (seen in rockbox.map), minus the size used by voices, tagcache, etc ..
02:52:43saratogamy vorbis test file will play, but no mp3s will with 5MB of padding
02:53:06funmando you have pictures embedded in your mp3s ? (id3v2)
02:53:26saratogano but there is one in teh folder its probably trying to load, let me remove it
02:54:10saratogathat fixed playback
02:54:21 Quit readability (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:54:42funmanthere is an infinite loop when the buffer is too small for loading album art. I have a fix but again i'm not 100% sure if it's correct.
02:54:58saratogashall i just loop for a while and see if it locks up?
02:55:05saratogaor maybe try a smaller buffer?
02:55:32funmanhow big is the available audio buffer ? (I think on the c200v2 it ranged from 30k to 50k)
02:56:09saratogahuh music just deadlocked
02:56:17funmanI could even have a negative audiobuffer size when enabling logf and/or setting settings > limits to the maximum
02:56:32saratogawell the denominator in the buffering thread is still 77KB, should i get the number from rockbox.map?
02:56:35funmansaratoga: so it justs enforces the theory that the bug is related to buffering
02:57:15saratogayes it sounds like something is seriously wrong with buffering if the buffer is relatively small
02:57:48funmansaratoga: in rockbox.map you can make the difference between audiobufend and audiobuffer, so you'll get the real audiobuffer size. But from that value you need to remove the bytes used by tagcache, talk, etc..)
02:58:25funmanI think somehow the buffering is looping if there is not enough size available.
02:58:25saratoganow audio is quite screwed up, sounds like i'm only hearing the difference channel so that vocals are nearly attenuated but music is loud
02:59:06funmanhm .. if you don't have a clip, here is how I (we, with bertrik at least) "fix" playback : stop, and resume, or power off, and resume.
02:59:19saratogai have a clip
02:59:49funmanif you have a clip you use regularly with rockbox (i use my fuze much more now :P )
03:00
03:00:59saratogathe difference between audiobuf and end is almost exactly 1MB
03:01:16saratogaso that would probably explain why 2MB didn't work with the fuze
03:09:39saratogafunman: oddly enough, after rebooting into the OF, playing a file, and then rebooting back, audio works correctly again
03:09:44saratogabut just rebooting wasn't enough to fix it
03:09:52saratogae200v2 for what its worth
03:10:12saratogamaybe i just have a bad headphone jack or something
03:13:10funmansaratoga: if you haven't used much your clip recently, this might seem strange. But looks "normal" to me and clip users.
03:16:16saratogai'm going to let it loop for a while and see if it deadlocks again while i'm not hitting buttons
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03:21:28linuxstbBlue_Dude: Regarding your debugging output patches, why not simply replace DEBUGF() with logf() ?
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04:23:42funmanI will look again at recording on Sansa AMS tomorrow, i think it should be quite easy to implement
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04:45:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:51:29Blue_Dudelinuxstb: There's no problem with that, except it would be nice to turn off logf when not building for a simulator.
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05:38:10JdGordonany chance of getting testers for FS #9886?
05:38:31JdGordonI'm pretty sure its got some subtle bugs which my quick testing isnt showing up
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05:53:51JdGordonhttp://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=22008.0
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06:22:19LloreanJdGordon: What happens when it uses less RAM? I'm assuming that doesn't mean "there's more buffer", is the RAM just sitting around unused (not a complaint, this is what I'd expect, it's just your post makes it sound like simple themes somehow free something up, which seems it'd cause problems if you changed to a complex theme *during* playback)
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06:53:31JdGordonLlorean: yeah, i just realised i should elaborate more... going to do that now...
06:53:44JdGordonwhen its finished the freed ram will be able to be returned to the audio buffer
06:53:46JdGordonsort of....
06:57:44LloreanSort of?
06:57:49LloreanHow will it work if playback is running?
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07:05:36JdGordonit wont work it playback is running.... (not untill our magicall not-malloc-but-re-allocalbla-alloc-buffer stuff happens
07:07:03LloreanAh, so it's not really something useful until other work happens. I don't think users will like losing the ability to change WPS whenever they like without stopping.
07:09:45JdGordonthey wont
07:10:26JdGordonanyway, we've had this discussion before and it was decided that its +'s were better than its -'s so when it works its going in
07:12:54*Llorean shrugs
07:14:30JdGordon... its in the logs, bassically the change wont affect users anyway if they dont touch the setting (or however its done)... but if people want crazy themes with 300K of images, they will be able to do that
07:14:50JdGordonand when the wfm screen happens this can potentially soften its ram usage hit
07:15:04LloreanSetting?
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07:17:55JdGordonpigin crashed :/
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07:18:10LloreanYeah, it's a bit unstable these days.
07:18:12JdGordonit in all likelyhood wont be a true setting...
07:18:24LloreanWhat would it be. I'm a little confused, but i haven't tried the patch
07:18:25JdGordonthats up for debate once this thing actually works correctly
07:18:56*Llorean shrugs.
07:19:00*Llorean never changes his WPS anyway
07:19:28JdGordonditto
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09:12:19GodEateris it just me, or are the forums running *damn* slow today ?
09:16:47cool_walking_I haven't noticed it.
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09:45:32Sir_BrizzCan anyone legitimize or disprove these two claims? 1) Rockbox won't let you charge your ipod through USB, 2) Rockbox syncs much slower than the standard ipod firmware
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09:46:44GodEater1) is a bug we're currently we're on, it's not that it "won't let you", more that "it doesn't and we don't know why".
09:46:56GodEater2) I don't think that's true
09:47:56AlexPGodEater: On some ipods the USB writing is much slower
09:48:05AlexPin Rockbox as opposed to OF
09:48:18AlexP4/5 MB/sec as opposed to 14 MB/sec
09:48:30GodEaterAlexP: can't say I've noticed. Although I think I'm using the DMA patch, which does help :)
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09:48:31AlexPThat is 4 to 5, not 0.8 :)
09:48:45AlexPGodEater: The DMA patch helps hugely
09:48:59*GodEater waves the "commit it" flag
09:49:00AlexPWith that it is not too far off the OF IIRC
09:53:18AlexPSir_Brizz: The charging issue is why Rockbox USB is not enabled on the ipods for the releases, so that when you plug in USB it rteboots to the OF
09:55:41Lssit doesnt reboot to of on the current builds right
09:55:44Lssat least mine didnt
09:56:08Sir_Brizzwell that stinks
09:56:11Sir_BrizzI'm consideringh loading it
09:56:19Lssand yes my ipod 5.5 transfers faster on of
09:56:28Lss3rdly i can charge my ipod on rockbox
09:56:31Sir_Brizzmine';s an old ipod, not sure which gen
09:56:41Lssin fact a weird thing is that on of it charges till 88 only
09:56:47Lsswhile on rockbox it gets to 100
09:57:03GodEaterSir_Brizz: what do you mean "that stinks" ?
09:57:21Sir_Brizzthat the charging doesn't work in rockbox
09:57:21Lssrockbox is slower than OF on usb transfers
09:57:28Lsserm i just said it does
09:57:29Sir_Brizzand that rockbox is slower
09:57:32Lsson the current build
09:57:44Lssi even have one of those portable battery packs which i use on the go
09:57:51Lsswhile im still listening to the rockboxed ipod
09:58:07GodEaterSir_Brizz: but if you download the Release version it won't matter to you, since when you plug it into USB, you'll get the orignal firmware anyway, and so your ipod will continue to work fine.
09:58:15GodEaterSo I don't understand what difference it makes
09:58:20Sir_Brizzoh I see
09:58:26Sir_Brizzso even syncing would be "faster"
09:58:36GodEaterfaster than what ?
09:58:46Sir_Brizzwell that's why I quoted it
09:58:56Sir_Brizzpurportedly faster than in rockbox
09:59:03Lssrockbox usb transfers are slower than OF usb transfers on my ipod
09:59:12Lssby a factor of about 5
09:59:27GodEaterSir_Brizz: you won't be using Rockbox's USB code to sync at all though
09:59:31Sir_Brizzyeah
09:59:34Sir_Brizzthat's what I mean
09:59:49Sir_Brizzonce I plug in the USB charging and syncing will be on of
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10:00:17Sir_Brizzso if I put rockbox on and hate it, how hard is it to remove?
10:00:40Lssits faster than the time you took to type that
10:00:42scorche|shas hard as hitting an uninstall button
10:00:46Sir_Brizzhaha fair enough
10:00:50Lssthe automated tool makes it really simple
10:01:02Sir_Brizzokay last question then, when I put rockbox on will it erase my files?
10:01:13Lssno
10:01:18Sir_Brizzgreat
10:01:20Lssbut
10:01:27Lssitunes stuff will require the database
10:01:36Lssotherwise you cant access it
10:01:37GodEaterso make sure you've read the manual
10:01:38Sir_Brizzprotected files you mean?
10:02:04Lssbasically music you synced onto the ipod using itunes
10:02:09Sir_Brizzah
10:02:15Lssand you can pretty much kiss your videos bye bye
10:02:26Lssrockbox isnt very good at video playback anyway
10:02:49GodEaterrockbox is just fine at video playback on all ipods except the 5/5.5 gen thanks
10:03:52Lssi remember that the format support means you had to re encode wasnt it
10:04:07GodEateryes, but what's that got to do with the actual playback ?
10:04:38Lsshaving to settle for lower bitrates?
10:04:51linuxstbLss: Rockbox runs on about 7 ipods which don't normally play video, but play it well in Rockbox. You're assuming Sir_Brizz has an ipod video.
10:05:13Sir_Brizznope
10:05:14Lssgood point will take note of that in the future
10:05:17Sir_Brizzthis is an ipod color
10:05:43GodEaterin which case a) you don't have videos on it at the moment anyway, and b) when you put some on their, they will look AWESOME!!!!
10:05:50GodEaters/their/there
10:05:55Sir_Brizzhehe :)
10:06:01Sir_Brizzokay I'm getting the installer
10:06:25Sir_Brizzis Rockbox Utility the preferred install method?
10:06:37Lssthe most pain free yes
10:06:38Sir_Brizzoh I guess so
10:06:39Lssuse it
10:06:49Lsseven the theme function works now
10:07:09linuxstbSir_Brizz: Yes - that's what the Rockbox manual suggests, and that's the definitive source for install and usage information.
10:07:27Sir_Brizzyeah I thought there were two installers for some reason
10:07:37AlexPSir_Brizz: I would strongly recommend looking at the manual (to the point of insisting) :)
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10:08:54GodEaterAlexP: is that the manual you insisted on breaking at the weekend ? :)
10:09:10linuxstbSir_Brizz: There are two installers, but they do the same thing (and actually use the same code). One is just a command-line tool for installing the Rockbox bootloader (ipodpatcher), rbutil does a lot more.
10:09:14Lssits too long for most ppl to be honest
10:09:21Lssttdr haha
10:09:25Lsstldr
10:09:50Sir_Brizzgotcha
10:09:53GodEaterLss: if you think you can condense it, please help us out
10:10:17Lssthe wiki is good enough imo
10:10:22Lssrather than the full manual
10:10:34AlexPThe wiki is full of outdated info
10:10:44AlexPAnd searching it is much much harder than the manual
10:10:44GodEaterand is sometimes wrong
10:11:14Lssi see
10:11:28Lsslet me look through 3.4's manual
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10:11:45Lss3.3 oops
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10:14:52Sir_Brizzdoes the complete install install the fonts package?
10:15:34GodEaterI can't remember to be honest
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10:23:22AlexPSir_Brizz: I think so
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10:38:16blippei am trying to connect an itrip to ipod nano 1g with rockbox, is it possible to get it to work?
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10:39:08GodEaterblippe: we have a page in the rockbox wiki which says which accessories work and which don't
10:39:35GodEaterhttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodAccessories
10:40:46blippeGodEater: thanks...
10:43:48AlexPblippe: If yours isn't there it'd be great if you could add your findings so others can benefit in the future
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10:46:55blippeAlexP: np...
10:47:06AlexPcool
10:47:21AlexPDon't forget you might need options like the accessory power supply
10:48:56blippeThing is, the transmitter shuts down when i swithc from the apple firmware, but i think i read somewhere about shorting a connector so it is charged while rebooting, but i can't find the information anywhere.
10:49:15blippeI am sitting with my soldering iron all set to go... :D
10:49:33AlexPer, search me :)
10:50:14blippeanybody know a thrustworthy schematic over the connectors on a ipod nano 1g ?
10:50:54AlexPThere may be something on the wiki, but I couldn't tell you where
10:51:04AlexPOr the ipodlinux wiki might have too
10:51:23blippei will have a look
10:53:29Mikachugoogle suggests http://pinouts.ru/PortableDevices/ipod_pinout.shtml
10:55:13DarkSpectrumbefore i try to install it, does anyone know if the FS #9955 bootloader for the Sansa C200 works well yet?
10:55:45DarkSpectrumi was originally hopeing that the bootloader would have been updated for the 3.3 release
10:56:00GodEaterbootloaders don't form part of the releases
10:56:25DarkSpectrumoh....
10:57:03DarkSpectrumjust seems a nussance to have to boot the player before connecting USB now that it's supported, if you plug it in with power off the OF boots
10:57:20AlexPyes, new ones would be good
10:57:20GodEaterthe bootloader will be updated when it's ready
10:57:36DarkSpectrumlol and i have 9 C200's and 7 E200's :P
10:57:45DarkSpectrumupdateing is a pain ;)
10:57:57AlexPDarkSpectrum: I don't recall offhand, but the comments in the thread should tell if there are any problems that have been found
10:58:35DarkSpectrumi find it's always safe to ask, not everyone reports problems on FS but will tell you here sometimes
10:59:25AlexPyes
10:59:41AlexPI haven't heard of any, but that doesn't always mean much :)
10:59:48DarkSpectrumBTW, don't ask why i have so many players, i'm addicted to them, and hell at only $15 at microcenter i cant help but pick up another one every time i go there
11:00
11:00:31DarkSpectrumlol i even have a player glued to my monitor and use rockbox instead of winamp or anything else while on my computer :)
11:02:25DarkSpectrumok to install that FS #9955 bootloader do i do the, "hold on, hold REC while powering on" and copy the .mi4 over to the emergency boot thing?
11:02:28martian67DarkSpectrum, you may be interested to know rockbox can function as a remote while its plugged in
11:03:13DarkSpectrumyeah i saw that, but why bother, rockbox beats any audio media player anyway
11:03:42martian67because losing the abillity to mix audio on your pc kinda sucks
11:03:45martian67:)
11:04:15DarkSpectrumnaw, i have c200 going to the line-in and back out to my normal speakers, so i can mix all i want :)
11:06:17blippemartian67: oh, remote you say... how?
11:06:37martian67blippe, a recentish build, plug it in
11:06:54martian67its play/forward/back/pause/etc buttons
11:07:02martian67map to keyboard multimedia keys
11:07:06DarkSpectrumok i'm confused, where are the docs for sansapatcher?
11:07:27blippeAlexP: seems as if port 17 (reserved) is used to power the itrip.. gonna try to short 17 and +3.3V and hope for the best...
11:07:27martian67oh also volume
11:07:41blippemartian67: win or lin?
11:07:47martian67either it dosent matter
11:07:53martian67its emulating a usb keyboard
11:07:59blippemartian67: great, gonne check it out...
11:08:05martian67you just have to have those keys mapped to do something on your system
11:08:16martian67mine control foobar2000 :3
11:08:59blippemartian67: foobar is the only thing i miss from windows. But i miss tons of stuff from linux on win, therefore: "portable ubuntu"... :D
11:09:05DarkSpectrumwindows
11:09:09AlexPLet's stay on topic chaps
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11:09:17blippeAlexP: sorry
11:09:22AlexPno problem :)
11:09:46martian67blippe, foobar runs 100% fine in wine
11:09:48martian67jfyi
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11:21:04DarkSpectrumcould somone please help me find the docs for sansapatcher for windows?
11:21:08DarkSpectrumsomeone*
11:21:41linuxstbRun "sansapatcher −−help" - that's probably all the docs there are...
11:23:01DarkSpectrumty
11:23:22DarkSpectrumi'm trying to figure out how to apply FS #9955 to my Sansa C240
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11:25:09linuxstbCopy sansapatcher.exe and firmware.mi4 to the same directory, and then run "sansapatcher -a firmware.mi4"
11:25:37GodEaterassuming you've already built the new firmware.mi4 that is...
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11:26:51linuxstbGodEater: firmware.mi4 is attached to 9955
11:27:00*linuxstb sees that bluebrother has broken sansapatcher... :(
11:28:22GodEaterlinuxstb: so it's not actually a patch then
11:29:26linuxstbGodEater: No, doesn't seem to be...
11:29:50GodEatersilly me for assuming it was =/
11:30:10linuxstbBlame rasher...
11:30:11DarkSpectrumhow do i go about installing it then, i do not use sansapatcher?
11:30:21linuxstbDarkSpectrum: I just told you how to install it...
11:30:40GodEateryou also said sansapatcher was broken ;)
11:30:44DarkSpectrumok.. got confused again for a second
11:30:57*GodEater can understand DarkSpectrum's confusion in that case
11:31:08AlexPI assume svn sansapatcher is broken, not the already released executable
11:31:09linuxstbGodEater: Yes, that's confusing... But DarkSpectrum can just use the latest released sansapatcher.exe
11:31:18linuxstbAnd yes, I'm talking about current svn.
11:31:26GodEaterAlexP: yes, I assume that too, but DarkSpectrum can be forgiven for not following
11:31:34AlexPGodEater: Indeed he can
11:31:40AlexPAll is forgiven :)
11:31:44*linuxstb forgives DarkSpectrum
11:31:55DarkSpectrumlol ty
11:33:51DarkSpectrumkinda off topic, any future plans for WPS to support more then one font at a time?
11:34:05*rasher will accept no blame!
11:34:08Torneit's one of those things that's on the "would be nice" list
11:34:18Tornepeople have looked at it, there are patches.
11:34:29rasherThere's no category for "vanilla builds of rockbox (bootloaders)"
11:34:30AlexPDarkSpectrum: That's on topic IMO
11:34:31FrankTMTorne: is that the same list as "feel free to write"?
11:34:41TorneFrankTM: hehe
11:34:44Tornewell someone already did write it
11:34:48DarkSpectrumpatch would be nice but i don't want to make a WPS that wouldnt be offically supported
11:34:49GodEaterit's Mr. Someone's "TODO" list
11:35:01FrankTMahh.
11:35:05TorneDarkSpectrum: a lot of the unofficial builds on the forum have the multifont patch
11:35:07AlexPDarkSpectrum: And it is wanted I think, it is just the existing patch doesn't do it properly, and nobody has written it to do it as it should
11:35:09FrankTMi've been redirected to that a couple of time
11:35:11GodEaterwhich, incidentally, got still longer at DevCon
11:35:13FrankTM+s
11:35:25linuxstbrasher: Also, was the version number incremented in the binaries, and did you make a note of the revision number? i.e. can we release those binaries as they are, or do they need rebuilding as releases?
11:35:33DarkSpectrumAlexP: maybe i'll look into modifying it
11:35:36*Torne needs multifont support to port frotz properly so would quite like it too :)
11:36:22AlexPDarkSpectrum: That'd be great - I'd bring it up on the mailing list first to find out how people would like it done so you don't potentially wate loads of time doing it the wrong way
11:36:26GodEaterfrotz needs multiple fonts ???
11:36:30rasherlinuxstb: unfortunately no, I didn't.
11:36:39DarkSpectrumgood idea
11:36:42TorneGodEater: it's not mandatory but the z-machine has four hypothetical fonts
11:36:55Torneone of which is unknown ;)
11:36:57GodEaterI've never seen a z-machine games which uses them then.
11:37:01GodEaterI'm bewildered
11:37:09Tornequite a few infocom games use the graphics font
11:37:10GodEaterand probably I've been chewed on by a grue
11:37:13Torneto draw runes or maps and stuff
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11:37:14linuxstbrasher: Under the GPL I request the source for those bootloaders... ;)
11:37:15rasherlinuxstb: so we'd probably want a new round of builds anyway
11:37:23DarkSpectrumi hope noone is allready working on it, i've wanted a project to do besides making themes, and this is something i'd really want myself
11:37:26*rasher hands linuxstb a git checkout
11:37:38*linuxstb doesn't want it that much
11:37:43*GodEater wishes DarkSpectrum much luck
11:37:44Tornealmost all z-machine games use two fonts: fixed pitch for the top window, proportional for the bottom window
11:37:46 Quit cool_walking_ ()
11:37:57GodEaterTorne: shows my eye for detail then eh ? :)
11:38:06Tornebut i can do that without multifont if you pick a proportional font that vaguely matches sysfont in size
11:38:16AlexPDarkSpectrum: I don't think they are, and go for it!
11:38:34TorneGodEater: unless you played lots of the original Infocom games you may not have noticed the graphics font :) inform games are unlikely to use it
11:38:39DarkSpectrumarent the GFX just extended ascii ?
11:38:49DarkSpectrum127-254?
11:38:51Torneno
11:38:54GodEaterTorne: I think the original Zork is the only one I played.
11:39:02GodEaterIt was so hard it didn't inspire me to try any others
11:39:03Torne127-254 are used for accents to support european languages
11:39:11Torneit switches to a different font entirely for fake gfx
11:39:18DarkSpectrumhuh
11:39:32Tornebtw my frotz port runs, kinda
11:39:45Tornei haven't implemented read_line yet but i can input characters by mapping buttons to particular keys
11:39:54Tornewhich lets me run some of the z-machine spec compliance tests with good results
11:40:02Tornescrolling is very veyr very slow though, i need to seriously optimise it :)
11:40:15DarkSpectrumzork on RB would rule if there was a good way to do it
11:40:38Tornewell i'm working on it
11:40:48DarkSpectrumAWSOME!!!
11:40:57Tornei'll do what i can to implement a nicer UI after i have the zmachine running properly
11:41:19linuxstbTorne: So how many different things are you working on?
11:41:28Tornelinuxstb: for rockbox, pretty much just this atm
11:41:41Tornebut i'm also doing two or three other projects for myself
11:41:43*GodEater doesn't want to try to use the virtual keyboard to play zork. I hope others will like it though.
11:41:45Torneand contributing to two or three othe rplaces
11:41:47Torneand having a job. :)
11:41:49DarkSpectrumhow are you going to get around typing out what you want to do?
11:42:11TorneDarkSpectrum: command lists, pick-from-screen typing, and just suffering nad having to type out what you want to do.
11:42:23Torneit's not going to be particularly comfortable but I can probably do a bit better than the naieve implementaiton
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11:42:24DarkSpectrumhave a scrollable multiple choice or something?
11:42:26DarkSpectrumahhh
11:42:37Tornethe main intention is to support games specifically written with limited input in mind
11:42:47Tornebut it will be a generic zmachine interpreter and thus can run any other zmachine game too
11:42:53linuxstbTorne: Sorry, I was confusing frotz with frodo, and thought you were also porting a C64 emulator...
11:42:58Torneah. no.
11:43:05Tornec64 is not my scene ;)
11:43:16DarkSpectrumsweet, i allready have a huge ZM dat collection
11:43:33Tornenaughty
11:43:44Tornewe do not talk about having copied infocom's games. :)
11:43:53Torne(you can still buy many of them)
11:44:03DarkSpectrumlol i have bought them
11:44:20Torneoh. sorry, i ay hav emisunderstood 'dat' :)
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11:44:28DarkSpectrumi've been playing zork since `83 on my first PC-XT
11:44:37Torneanyway. yah. the majority of games will not be particularly fun to play
11:44:41Tornebut they *will work*
11:44:48Torneat least, games in z5 format
11:44:56Torneassuming you have a player with large ram
11:45:16Tornez8 is too big to fit in the plugin buffer even on 64mb targets
11:45:20DarkSpectrumi have no idea what's in the C2xx and E2xx's
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11:45:42Torneme either. you need a 512kb plugin buffer for my frotzbox at the moment
11:46:04Torneit could be done in a lot less memory if I implemented swapping like the original zmachine interpreters used to but tha would make it a battery-life-sucker
11:46:18DarkSpectrumshould work, i havent seen a plugin that hasent worked on them yet, except the mpeg player, runs too slow
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11:46:28Torneif lua runs then frotzbox will
11:48:20DarkSpectrumno idea, havent played with it yet
11:49:10Torneyes, c2xx/e2xx will work
11:49:13Torneat leas tin theory
11:49:17Tornei've only tested it on ipodvideo
11:49:33Tornewhen i've got a finished first iteration i'll post the code for people and you can try it
11:49:47DarkSpectrumcan't wait :)
11:50:01Tornesadly you will have to, as noted above i am perpetually doing ten things at once ;)
11:50:46DarkSpectrumhey late is better then naver ;P
11:50:51DarkSpectrumnever*
11:51:01DarkSpectrumany thanks in advance to you also :)
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11:53:09linuxstbTorne: BTW, we're all fed up with plugins called rock* or *box ;) If it's a port of frotz, just call it frotz...
11:53:18TorneHehe
11:53:19Tornealright
11:53:29Tornei'll rename it later :)
11:55:54DarkSpectrumoh hey i saw that for GSoC they are working on WMA-Pro is that going to include WMA-Voice also?
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11:56:54linuxstbNo, WMA Pro wasn't an accepted project.
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11:57:13DarkSpectrumoh
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12:00:25GodEaterTorne: does your work have an FS # yet ?
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12:05:08TorneGodEater: no, i was going to wait until i had a bit more.
12:05:26Torneposting a patch atm would be very tedious as i change it rather a lot :)
12:05:27GodEaterTorne: bad developer. bad. Put it in now!
12:05:38Torneaww
12:05:48Tornewith a patch?
12:05:55GodEaterideally
12:06:02Tornei could link my bzr loom :)
12:06:15GodEaternothing stopping you doing that too in the comments
12:06:30Tornenot that anyone would be able to use it, i expect :)
12:06:34*GodEater goes to work out if he a) has bzr installed, and b) how the hell to use it.
12:06:34Torneloom is weird
12:06:42Torneloom is not a standard bzr branch either
12:06:58GodEaterwhy not use git like a sane person ? :)
12:06:59Tornei have all the pahces i use as threads on the loom so if you pull the whole thing you get a bunch of other FS# as well ;)
12:07:08Tornebecause i find git horrendously difficult to use
12:07:14Tornewhereas bzr is made of delicious wonderfulness
12:07:22Tornealso it's written in python so when it breaks i cna fix it easily :)
12:07:38Tornebzr can do svn interoperation just as well as git, so hey
12:08:13Tornehm, actually, if i'm gonna post a patch there are some tidyups i need to do
12:08:37Tornewhat's the policy on formatting/copyright notices/etc for files which are substantially just lifted from another suitably licenced project?
12:08:54Tornefrotz's code is hilariously old and every file is indented differently :)
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12:09:36GodEaterfor plugins we don't care so much about the formatting
12:09:47linuxstbTorne: I think generally, if the code is taken from somewhere else, follow the existing style in that file. Is frotz still being developed?
12:09:47GodEaterthe code has to be GPL compatible though
12:10:00TorneGodEater: yah, iirc it's BSD, i did check this up front
12:10:05Torneor MIT
12:10:14Tornei'll double check it befor ei post it anywhere
12:10:30linuxstbAccording to this, it's GPL'd - http://frotz.sourceforge.net/
12:10:37Tornelinuxstb: it's not had a release for a very long time, but it's technically alive
12:10:48Torneah, ok then
12:12:20linuxstbTorne: I guess it's up to you - the obvious downside of reformatting would be that it would be harder to sync changes.
12:12:40Tornei'm unlikely to sync many, i have to say
12:12:45Tornethe last release was 10 months ago
12:13:11Tornei might leave the files nicked from the core alone, but reformat the bits from dumbfrotz as i've rewritten half of that anyway
12:13:22Tornethe core stuff is supposed to be platform independant so needs very few changes to build for rockbox
12:13:28linuxstbSounds sensible.
12:13:56Torneok. i'll do that, rename it to just 'frotz', do something sensible with copyright/license notices
12:14:03Torneand post a pathc of what i have so far on flyspray later sometime :)
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14:21:34MarcGuayMy favourite part of DevCon is all of the photos of scorche looking glum.
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14:34:31webguest31Could we have names/nicks at one of the group pics?
14:35:20funmanwebguest31: have you seen http://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2009/06/21/rockbox-devcon-2009-summary/ ?
14:36:04webguest31Ahh, missed that. Thanks.
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14:40:37FrankTMfunman: nerd alert :+
14:41:05funmanyes it didn't pass my nerd filtering ^^
14:41:16FrankTMnfi :)
14:41:39funmangevaerts: is MeizuM6Port up to date ? (no lcd support)
14:41:41FrankTMwtf
14:42:00gevaertsfunman: the M3 has lcd, the M6 not yet
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14:45:49Blue_Dudelinuxstb: I just posted a belated reply to FS #10366.
14:46:14linuxstbBlue_Dude: It's not belated - I'm assuming we're in different timezones...
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14:46:47Blue_DudeI'm on EDT, and I finally turned in last night at 2am.
14:46:54Blue_DudeGMT -4.
14:46:58linuxstbWhat other file are you talking about?
14:47:02linuxstbI'm GMT+1
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14:47:21Blue_DudeI originally cribbed the code from playback.c.
14:47:55Blue_DudeAnd cut it down to make better sense in other files.
14:48:54LambdaCalculus37IIRC the plugin API has changed a while back, and I kind of missed out on what the significant changes were. Can someone clue me in quickly on the changes?
14:50:09LambdaCalculus37Also, I need to look for where the keymaps for each player are kept now. From the look of things (or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place), the #define's are not in the plugin main sources anymore.
14:50:10Tornehow long do you mean by a while?
14:50:28LambdaCalculus37Torne: A while as in a couple of months.
14:50:31Torneone thing that was done a while ago is that the rb pointer is provided and initialised automatically..
14:50:46linuxstbBlue_Dude: Ah, I was wondering where the name LOGFQUEUE came from. It seems to be used in playback.c to log messages posted to queues, so that name doesn't really make sense elsewhere.
14:50:48Tornethat was the only thing that caused me a problem updating the plugin i was working on :)
14:51:29Blue_DudeAh, I was thinking that it QUEUEs log messages for display. My bad.
14:51:43Blue_DudeI'll go back and patch the patches.
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15:02:10MarcGuayLambdaCalculus37: Some plugins use the "plugin lib actions" business... Others have them in their main C file... Changes to the API, beats me.. I know you used to have to create your own reference to rb-> but now it's automatic..
15:03:30LambdaCalculus37MarcGuay: That's what I was thinking of. Thanks. :)
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15:12:13Blue_Dudelinuxstb: I posted a patch that should fix all three files.
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15:32:18Tornewhat *is* the best practise re plugin button mapping?
15:32:30Tornei read somewhere that pluginlib actions is deprecated or at least advised against
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15:36:17rasherUnless the controls are very simple, PLA is likely more trouble than it's worth
15:40:04lilltigerhmm im looking at the SansaAMS page and it says that all but USB and recording should be working on the Fuze V1, does that mean that it actually works well on this device?
15:41:47gevaertsfrom what I understand, it works reasonably well. Depending on capacity there may still be bugs in the storage driver though (unless I'm misremembering)
15:42:06LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: There are some bugs remaining IIRC.
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15:42:27lilltigerI have 8GB internal and 8GB external for it
15:42:27LambdaCalculus37But we should ask funman and kugel, since they're the ones doing all the dirty work.
15:42:35gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: I said "reasonably well" :)
15:43:17LambdaCalculus37lilltiger: I would not really recommend using the port just yet. While music playback is reasonably stable, the storage driver bugs may cause big issues.
15:43:54LambdaCalculus37The front page will reflect when the port is ready to be used for everyday purposes. Right now, it's best left for developers to continue bug squashing.
15:45:28lilltigerLambdaCalculus37: someone should add an note about it to the "http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SansaAMS" as there is it would seem that there was no isses with it.
15:47:32LambdaCalculus37lilltiger: I'll revise it when I get a chance.
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15:48:29lilltigercos imo the fuze is an awsome player, the only issue with it is the uglyness of the interface ;)
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15:51:07LambdaCalculus37lilltiger: Gotta give it time, though. Remember, we haven't got the ability to just hire robots to code for us all day, otherwise we'd all be sitting back on the beach of some tropical island, sipping exotic drinks, and be surrounded by beautiful women while the robots work and toil and speak for us on IRC.
15:51:20funmanlilltiger: just read the requirements for release
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15:51:48gevaertsfunman: details are in flux right now :)
15:52:21funmani meant the "requirements for release" section of SansaAMS wiki page
15:52:33gevaertsah yes...
15:52:36lilltigerfunman: i did, but it dident say much :) and the chart implied that all was fine, thats was why i asked
15:53:11funmanall is fine, except the bugs :/
15:54:18lilltigerfunman: yes, but as the chart dident say any general problem for the V1 i had no way to know if the corruption/deadlock bug was related to the fuze v1 or not, so i askt :p
15:55:24GodEaterI thought we decided at devcon that the AMS (and particularly the fuze v1) was going to become "supported" ?
15:55:53gevaertsGodEater: as soon as there are no potentially player-bricking bugs left
15:56:06funmanlilltiger: generally if the port isn't supported, these informations are for developers
15:56:19LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: Which I think there are few last ones to squash, right?
15:56:35GodEatergevaerts: I got the impression from kugel that such a possiblity was extremely remote on the fuze now ?
15:56:56funmanGodEater: gevaerts, there is no risk of bricking provided bootloaders are tested, but all the Sansa AMS suffer from storage corruption so i'm against it
15:57:16funmanof course once this is fixed, no problem :)
15:57:18gevaertsGodEater: it has sd corruption, and IIRC no always-working unbrick method
15:57:24GodEaterfair enough
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15:57:47gevaertsso you *probably* won't have serious issues, but if you do, they are bad
15:57:49funmanonly the e200v2 can be recovered, and that involves opening the case
15:58:15lilltigerfunman: ok, im used to use dev code and compile it myself on my puter, so i have an habit of checking the dev code. Guess it's a bad idea for mp3 players :)
15:58:37Torneonly for mp3 players you want to keep using ;)
15:58:55gevaertslilltiger: it depends. Some have *very* good recovery mechanisms
15:59:37funmanlilltiger: i must say now the risk of bricking is very low if you don't mess with mkamsboot, but rockbox isn't just usable right now
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16:02:38lilltigerwhat does the bricking cause that makes it unrecovable, ruining the bootloader i guess, but couldent the custom bootloader start with setting an bit, thats says something like, bootup failed, and then reset it at the end of the bootup. So if it fails while booting the bit will be set and it will fallback on the org bootloader.
16:03:00lilltigeror does bricking imply something else then just an corrupt bootloader?
16:04:01funmana corrupted bootloader won't brick your player, because the dualboot is implemented in mkamsboot
16:04:20funmanyou could use /dev/urandom as a bootloader and still be able to boot the OF
16:04:27lilltigerahh ok
16:06:09funmanI added a red note about storage on the page
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16:06:43lilltigerfunman: good alot clearer now
16:07:10funmanthanks for suggesting ;)
16:07:27lilltigeralways happy to help with the important stuff :p
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16:09:44lilltigerfunman: but what is corrupted when the fuze gets bricked, as you have an costum bootloader already in place, couldent that bootloader reload an working firware in case of failur?
16:10:31funmancorrupted means that your player will not be functional and you have to format the partition
16:11:31lilltigerfunman: i ment for the bricking issues, as the sansa dosent include it's own unbricking i was thinking if there is a way for rockbox to implement it
16:11:51GodEaterif it's bricked, it cannot run rockbox by definition
16:11:57GodEaterit cannot run *anything*
16:11:57funmanyou're confused i think
16:12:20lilltigerbricked can imply alot of things, all from broken booloader , broken firware etc.
16:12:26funmanif you want to brick your player you can, but not with rockbox
16:14:15gevaertsfunman: can't the sd corruption make it overwrite the bootloader area?
16:14:41lilltigerfunman: i dont want to brick it, i was thinking about the possibilaty to implement an safeguard to recover from bugs that bricks the player
16:17:41funmangevaerts: i don't think so since we don't read or write to this area
16:18:01funmanlilltiger: mkamsboot is that safeguard
16:18:24gevaertsfunman: ah, ok. That's good to know
16:18:38lilltigerfunman: ahh ok :) so only thing that can brick it is bugs in mkasmboot i guess?
16:19:31lilltigercos hopefully nothing else access that memory with the ability to write to it.. ;D
16:19:44funmanlilltiger: yes, or like gevaerts mentioned a bug in rockbox which would overwrite the OF area (and there's nothing we can do here)
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16:21:34lilltigerfunman: ohh so the bootloader/firmware is on the same memory module as the "software" hehe thats quite a bad hardware design :)
16:21:56Torneok, i made a FS# for my frotz port, with a patch that actually builds and can run a z-machine compliance test program, at least on ipodvideo (not mapped buttons for other targets) :)
16:22:08TorneFS #10370
16:24:34Tornenow it just needs line input, and to be less horrendously slow at scrolling, and it might almost be possible to run a game
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16:28:44linuxstbTorne: Does the compliance test succeed?
16:28:53Tornemostly
16:28:59linuxstbSo, "no" ? ;)
16:29:05Tornemostly it reports "the interpreter says FOO is not supported"
16:29:07Tornewhich is valid :)
16:29:15Tornebut it should eventually support those things
16:29:21Tornee.g. colour
16:29:36Tornehilariously the main thing that goes wrong is because the compliance test is not compliant to the spec
16:29:46Torneit tries to set the cursor position without checking that the screen is wide enough
16:29:53Torneand ends up overwriting some of its own output :)
16:30:04Tornepresumably nobody ran it on such a narrow display before
16:30:11linuxstbWhere is this compliance test from?
16:30:15Tornethe frotz source
16:30:17Torneor the ifarchive
16:30:43Torneit's not very exciting/meaningful to someone who hasn't read the z-machine spec, tbh :)
16:30:51Torneit only tests a few things
16:31:09Tornebut all the basics should Just Work as frotz's core is basically unmodified, it's only the text output stuff that i've written
16:32:13Tornei don't recommend trying to run other z-machine programs because there's no exit button
16:32:24Torneso if it turns out you don't have the right keys mapped to cause the program to exit voluntarily you will have to hardreset :)
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16:42:01lazkaanyone here with a sansa fuze + sd card?
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16:43:06lazkaI need to know if the sd card gets mounted as a seperate disk (e.g. in linux)
16:43:21funmanlazka: it is, but this a bit offtopic :)
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16:44:55lazkathanks very much.. that explains the second not working hal device..
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16:54:17Jaykayi asked this a few months ago but forgot the answer...
16:54:40Jaykaywhy do we (you) deprecate strings in lang files instead of deleting them?
16:55:05gevaertsbecause if you remove a string halfway, older voicefiles stop working properly
16:55:39 Quit d3v14710n ()
16:56:08Jaykayso if you remove all deprecated strings and create new voice files everything is fine?
16:57:06gevaertsnot really. Lots of people make their own voice files
16:57:19gevaertsso we try to avoid breaking them too often
16:57:22rasherYes, but then *everyone* will have to make new voice files. And there's no real gain.
17:00
17:02:47Jaykaywill voice files be broken too if you would delete deprecated strings which where also deprecated when the voice file was created?
17:02:47lilltigerlazka: not working? my sansa fuze works flawless in linux registring the microSD as an removable vfat disk
17:03:38rasherJaykay: Yes
17:04:05Jaykayrasher: can you explain why?
17:04:15rasherThere's really no use in deleting them. It would shave a few bytes off language files and voice files, but that's it.
17:04:22 Quit ocean (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
17:04:28rasherJaykay: Because the order of clips in the files would be different from what rockbox expects
17:04:52lazkalilltiger, never mind.. I'm fixing a bug in a media player which doesn't work right with the fuze.. and the cause is the sd slot
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17:06:26Jaykayrasher: i didn't ask you to delete them, i was curious :) and thanks
17:06:55gevaertsJaykay: basically each string gets an id, and removing a string changes the numbering
17:12:47domonokythe real problem is that voicefile dont really map the voice entry to the lang entry. It just expects them to be in the same order as the lang file. (thats also why we get wrong voice entrys when a lang files gets changed)
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17:14:02Jaykayso sorting would also break voice files
17:15:02Jaykaysorry, that should be a question :)
17:15:11domonokyyes
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17:15:16rasherYes (but only the english language file, since that's the order that gets used when compiling)
17:15:32rasherOther translations can be in any order
17:16:29GodEateranyone have any ideas on this one ? http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=21891.0
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17:17:03domonokyalso adding a new string in the middle of english lang makes it break.. the voicefile system could need some improvements :-)
17:17:20rasherdomonoky: I think the fix is "don't do that"
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17:18:05domonokythe real fix would be to make some header to the voice file to really map them to the lang file, and that we are able to detect when they wont fit anymore.
17:19:03rasherI'm not convinced the current situation is so bad
17:20:13Jaykaydomonoky: is it a "problem" of rockbox or of... something else?
17:20:52domonokyi think its bad, that we are not able to detect when a voicefile wont fix anymore.
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17:21:26domonokyrockbox could play some "voicefile invalid" thing and rbutil could inform the user to generate a new one.
17:21:41domonokys/fix/fit.
17:22:22LloreanGodEater: My guess - cable's bad. It sounds like it's treating a USB port like a charger, which may just mean the data bit is cut but the power bit isn't.
17:22:52GodEaterLlorean: you already told him that didn't you? I'll reiterate it.
17:23:49LloreanWell, I *just* told him that, yeah.
17:24:06LloreanIn his case, with a c250, replacing the player might actually be the same price as buying a cable on its own though.
17:24:54GodEaterhe might get a v2 though ;)
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17:26:05gevaertswe need more people who have a c200v2 anyway :)
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17:41:31Jaykaycan someone explain "Set PCM buffer size to what is actually needed." to me? especially what pcm buffer is
17:41:46lilltigerGodEater: he could try to start up his puter with an linux live cd and check what info it gives about the device connected to the usb port
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17:43:01LloreanJaykay: The PCM buffer is what holds music after it's decoded, but before it's played.
17:43:30LloreanIt mainly helps make sure that if decoding takes a little longer than expected (high CPU-cost chunks in VBR files, or when the disk is just spinning up to rebuffer) there are no skips or gaps
17:44:12Jaykayso this is the audio buffer and should be as big as possible right?
17:44:22LloreanNo.
17:44:41LloreanIt should be as small as we can make it without impairing its functionality.
17:44:49LloreanAs I said, it's for *after* it's decoded.
17:45:13LloreanThe compressed buffer is the one that should be as large as possible.
17:45:25LloreanBoth of them contain audio, just in different forms, so it's better to avoid calling either of them "the audio buffer"
17:46:05gevaertsyes, but one of the is called that everywhere anywa
17:46:12gevaertsy
17:46:21Lloreangevaerts: Yeah, the compressed one.
17:46:57Llorean"compressed" isn't even always accurate anyway
17:47:08Lloreansince you can buffer WAV or AIFF uncompressed formats.
17:47:15Jaykayis there anything else besides rockbox itself, the compressed one and pcm buffer in ram?
17:47:24lilltigerthe PCM buffer is an device buffer, is it should be named device audio buffer if mentioned :)
17:47:34Lloreanlilltiger: What do you mean "device buffer"?
17:47:56LloreanJaykay: Could you clarify, there's some grammar difficulty at the end of that sentence that makes you unsure what you mean.
17:47:57gevaertsJaykay: sure. plugin buffer, codec buffer, and various other things that get enabled by certain options
17:47:59lilltigerLlorean: and buffer that is derectly used by an hardware device, like the PCM
17:48:42Lloreanlilltiger: There's no device called "the PCM." PCM is a way of representing audio data as digital data, and the PCM buffer is just a portion of RAM we set aside for holding PCM formatted audio (which is what you get after decoding the compressed audio)
17:49:37Jaykaywhat does the codec buffer contain? a "description" how to decode the data in the compressed buffer?
17:49:50lilltigerLlorean: ahh sorry, i just assumed rockbox handled it like linux does, guess not then
17:50:18LloreanJaykay: It contains the codec in use.
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17:58:41rasherSo, does anyone think FS #10093 is a bad idea? Apart from the fact that it sadly doesn't and can't work for themes?
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18:01:19kugelrasher: re dirfilter=0, what if you browse fonts using the filebrowser?
18:02:09kugelI think it's a nice addition
18:02:58rasherkugel: Then SHOW_FONT won't be set
18:03:18kugelah yea, that makes sense
18:04:15rasherSomething tells me this could be done in a simpler way, but I can't really figure out how
18:04:23Lloreanrasher: I like it a lot
18:04:25kugeljust remove the DEBUGF before committing :P
18:04:32rasherkugel: yeah, just noticed that
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18:04:38LloreanIt basically makes fonts, etc, appear to be identical to settings.
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18:05:01kugelI think it could work for themes, storing the filename in nvram.bin or something
18:05:24Lloreankugel: Except you'd need to reset it if *any* theme related setting changed anyway
18:05:35 Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
18:05:39LloreanSince you can set font color, .wps, font, backdrop, etc independently of theme.cfg
18:05:59LloreanA theme is just "the last loaded .cfg file" really
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18:06:21rasherMaybe "Browse fonts" should be changed to just "Font". This should also make it somewhat more obvious why Browse themes behaves differently
18:06:34Lloreanrasher: That's probably a good thing to go with it yeah.
18:07:10kugelwell, I can imagine that a) you don't obfuscate the theme enough to make it count as a different one, or b) you are quite happy to see which it was based off if you obfuscated it
18:08:10kugelnot much of an issue though, I think
18:08:38LloreanOr c) you're a user who doesn't understand themes are just .cfg files and file a bug report saying "Why does it say my currently selected theme is "Cabbiev2" when I selected the BlackMP.wps last week from 'browse WPS'"?
18:09:13kugelI don't think he'll be aware of the last phrase
18:09:15LloreanI think for .cfg files (themes, and settings groups) it's better just to make sure the user knows they're browsing a file, and for things like Fonts where they really don't need to know it's a file, drop the "Browse" keyword since it's irrelevant.
18:09:27kugelthe bug report will more be like "Why does it say my currently selected theme is "Cabbiev2""
18:10:12*rasher will also change "Browse Themes" to "Browse Theme Files"
18:10:17kugelon the other hand, users may also report a bug on "Why isn't the theme I loaded selected"
18:10:57Lloreanrasher: if WPS, RWPS or FM Presets have "Browse" it should probably be dropped there too
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18:11:35Lloreanrasher: "Browse theme configs" maybe?
18:11:48LloreanOr "Browse theme settings"?
18:12:02LloreanNah, neither of those really works well
18:12:17rasherLlorean: Already changed wps and rwps, fm presets are "Load Preset List", which I guess works
18:12:35Llorean"Select preset list" maybe?
18:12:38LloreanOr even "Choose preset list"?
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18:13:21kugelI'd drop the "list"
18:13:41rasherI think I'll just leave it. It's not really related to this change
18:14:09Lloreankugel: You aren't choosing one preset.
18:14:12LloreanYour choosing one group of presets.
18:14:27kugelI know, but how does that matter?
18:14:32LloreanIf you drop the word "list" it means something very different entirely.
18:14:38LloreanOne preset is "106.9 KRBE"
18:14:45rasher"Load Presets"?
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18:14:55kugelthat's what I was thinking
18:14:59LloreanOne preset list is several different presets associated with different stations
18:15:02kugelA theme is also a list of settings, we don't call it list either
18:15:09LloreanYou'd load houston.fmr and that's the preset list for all presets in houston
18:15:44LloreanHave you used the FM Radio much?
18:15:46LloreanIt's not a list of settings.
18:16:02kugelit's still one file. You click on 1 file, which is to me: load one thing, not caring about what actually is in that file
18:17:04LloreanThere's a difference between "one file" and "one setting"
18:17:15kugelIt's not? What is it then? It clearly lists some settings with their value to be applied
18:17:25LloreanIn every other case, each "file" you load changes a single setting. In the case of the theme.cfg it changes many settings, just like running a "Manage settings" style .cfg does
18:17:39Lloreankugel: Really? What settings does it list?
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18:17:56kugelfont, colors and stuff
18:18:12LloreanNo, the FM preset is not a list of settings
18:18:24kugelI said a theme file is also just a list
18:18:32LloreanThe fm preset is *not* just a list though
18:18:34kugeland we don't call it list
18:18:36LloreanWhich is what *I* said
18:18:45LloreanThe fm preset is a list of stations, it doesn't change multiple settings
18:18:54LloreanA theme file changes multiple settings, it's not a list of settings-independent values.
18:18:58LloreanThey're two entirely different things.
18:19:01kugelhow does setting or not change it being a list?
18:19:29LloreanWe don't call it a theme list because it's not a list OF THEMES
18:19:33LloreanIt's a single theme
18:19:39LloreanWe could call it a "theme settings list" if you wanted
18:19:50LloreanBut a single preset is different from a list of presets
18:19:54LloreanCalling it "a preset" is incorrect.
18:20:01kugelNo, I don't want. The word list isn't needed at all imo
18:20:04LloreanA list of X is not the same as "an X"
18:20:17LloreanDo you understand the concept of a difference between singular and plural?
18:20:29kugel"Load presets" (with the 's', i.e. 1 item is presets) works fine
18:20:37LloreanYou didn't say "rename it to Load presets"
18:20:39LloreanYou said "remove the word list"
18:20:46LloreanSorry" drop the list"
18:21:36kugelalright, I meant changing to "presets" in the same run (see my respond to rasher), I've should've been more clear in the first place, sorry
18:21:37rasherActually, I think the word list makes sense, because it makes it obvious that there can be multiple lists of presets, which is less obvious if you just have "Load Presets"
18:21:47bertrikwhat would be a good PWM frequency for backlight dimming?
18:22:01bertrikI need to process two interrupts per PWM period
18:22:25kugelrasher: the current list doesn't mean there can be more than 1 list
18:22:29bertrikand what would be a good amount of backlight dimming steps?
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18:22:50kugelbertrik: trial and error seems the best way to find out
18:23:08kugelbasically so that you meet the current settings
18:23:47bertrikkugel, does backlight dimming do 1 backlight step per tick or something?
18:24:06kugelare you after PWM fading or SW fading?
18:24:20bertrikPWM fading
18:24:34kugelthat one does several pwm adjustments per tick
18:24:37bertrikI get an interrupt when the desired percentage is reached and another interrupt when the full period is reached
18:25:55kugelrasher: You mean the "list" makes clear that you're about to list a list of presets?
18:26:13rasherkugel: Err, yes. I think that's what I mean
18:26:16bertrikalso I wonder how the backlight dimming steps should be spaced
18:26:29kugelWe don't do this anywhere in rockbox
18:26:39bertrikPWM is probably as linear as you can get, while human perception is probably more logarithmic
18:26:41kugelimagine "Volume list"
18:27:06kugelpeople aren't expecting that list is related to "the screen will be a(nother) list"
18:27:48rasherkugel: Maybe that's not what I mean. No, it's not. I mean that "Load presets" just seems to imply that entering that will load some amount of presets, where as "Load Preset List" means that there are a number of lists you can pick from
18:28:02kugelThat's what I mean
18:28:35rasherThe "List" specifies that each item is a list, not that the menu you enter is a list
18:28:38kugelWe aren't using the word list to announce a list where you can select an item from anywhere
18:28:47LloreanYes, you have multiple sets of multiple presets, not just multiple presets.
18:29:17kugelso that's not what you're putting into the word list, hence " I think the word list makes sense, because it makes it obvious that there can be multiple lists of presets" doesn't really make sense to me
18:29:38rasherkugel: But that's not what this does. It just says "The list you're about to see consists of lists"
18:29:43bertrikkugel, OK I think I'll just pick some compromise between not too fast and not too flickery
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18:30:08kugelrasher: yea, that's how it's meant currently, but I don't think it's really needed
18:30:31LloreanBut it's correct.
18:30:36LloreanThat's what it is, a list of the names of lists.
18:30:41kugelI never said it's wrong
18:31:00rasherI think it's better than leaving it out, since removing it makes is less clear what happens when you enter that menu-entry
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18:31:29kugelyou mean when you select something after entering that menu-entry?
18:31:57rasherNo
18:32:03rasherI mean when you select that menu-entry
18:32:18rasher"Load presets" could mean it just loads some presets from god-knows-where
18:32:42rasher"Load preset list" makes it more clear that you get to pick a preset list
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18:32:51kugelthe word "list", which means that each submenu entry is a list, makes clear that the submenu as a whole is also a list?
18:33:33kugelthat doesn't make much sense to me, since, as I said, we nowhere else announce submenus being a list with the word list
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18:33:44rasherNo, that's not what I'm saying
18:33:55Torne"load preset list" kinda implies "which preset list?"
18:34:10Torne"load presets" doesn't imply "which presets?" so much
18:34:14LloreanTorne: Yes, do you want the list of presets for houston, or the list of presets for dallas?
18:34:18kugelso does "Load presets" imples "Which presets" IMO
18:34:28LloreanYou aren't getting a single preset, you're getting a single list of prests when you select something
18:34:30kugelimply*
18:34:32Tornekugel: well, yah. it's a matter of opinion, since of ocurse formally it means no such thing
18:34:40Tornekugel: but i have to agree with rasher, sounds like it to me
18:34:55kugelwe could argue that way for many other settings in rockbox
18:35:00TorneLlorean: yah, i'm agreeing with you :)
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18:35:36kugelso the word list has a double meaning for you, while it only has 1 (what it's supposed to mean) for me
18:35:44Torneit's not the word list
18:35:48Torneit's just the way it's phrased
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18:36:02Torne"load preset file" would imply the same thing to me
18:36:04Lloreankugel: So you disagree that each fmr file is a preset list?
18:36:07Tornethat you had to pick which file
18:36:19kugelLlorean: How come you think that?
18:36:22Torne"load presets" sounds vague/abstract, it doesn't sound likely to ask me aything
18:36:41rasherkugel: Imagine "Load preset file" instead, substitute file with list, but with the same meaning
18:37:00rasherThe fact that it's the word "list" is confusing things in this discussion, I think
18:37:04Torne"load presets" sounds similar to "load factory defaults" or similar :)
18:37:09Tornei.e. something i won't get a choice about
18:37:16Tornerasher: indeed
18:37:21kugelLlorean: It means to me that you get to choose preset lists
18:37:29Lloreankugel: And you are choosing preset lists.
18:37:30kugelso each file in there is a list
18:37:33LloreanEach fmr file is a preset list.
18:37:37kugel...
18:38:54LloreanI'm really confused by what your objection is.
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18:39:17LloreanYou agree that you get to choose preset files. You agree that each preset file is a list. Transitively, you're choosing a preset list.
18:39:23LloreanI don't see why you don't agree to the third point.
18:39:32LloreanWhat am I missing?
18:39:56kugelI'm saying the word list isn't needed, and that Load presets works just as fine
18:40:30LloreanBut what you see isn't a list of presets.
18:40:34LloreanI can't load an individual preset.
18:40:36kugelI never said that the word list is wrong or something
18:40:50Tornekugel: some of us are saying "it's more obvious what it means if it says list"
18:40:58kugelit's a list of list of presets
18:40:58Torneso what's the actual argument for removing it?
18:41:02Torneit might be redundant to you
18:41:06Tornebut clearly it has value to othre people
18:41:14LloreanYes, it's a list of lists of presets. that is not the same as "a list of presets"
18:41:16Tornedo you really want to save the five bytes that much? :)
18:41:19kugelfor me, it's the same as a list of presets (each fmr is presets
18:41:20kugel)
18:41:53kugelTorne: no, I don't actually care about it at all
18:42:04Tornethen why are we even having this discussion? :)
18:42:05kugeljust defending my opinion for whatever reason
18:42:29kugelTorne: because apparently some people think I'm not aware of the fact that each .fmr is a list
18:42:35Torneok. mutual understanding has been reached
18:42:37Torneso we can stop?
18:43:05kugelI think so
18:43:18*gevaerts supports Torne's proposal
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18:46:50Torne..what frequency is the tick?
18:47:02*Torne feels dumb for not being able to find it
18:47:05gevaerts100Hz I think
18:47:05kugel100
18:47:21kugeli.e. "#define HZ 100"
18:47:39Torneok i'm dense
18:47:44Torneit's not like i'v enever used HZ
18:47:58javacrisHi, I have Question about buttery runtime h300 series
18:48:24kugelThe question itself would be more interesting
18:48:27javacrisis truth that rockbox works longer then OF
18:48:51kugeljavacris: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IriverRuntime
18:49:06Blue_Dudekugel: Hi. linuxstb suggested some cleanup from the debug fixes yesterday. The cleanup patch is in FS #10366.
18:49:32javacrisI saw this site, but theres no battery bench with newest rockbox builds
18:49:48JdGordon|rasher: feel free to annoy me tonight to look at 10093... assuming you want someone to give it a once over?
18:50:05kugelit's generally not getting noticeably worse, but feel free to update the page with a recent result
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18:51:13kugelBlue_Dude: I think the "sdl_audio_callback: No Data.\n" should stay
18:51:28rasherJdGordon|: I'm fairly happy with it by now actually.. mostly I'm worried that the code could be more efficient.
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18:51:38Blue_Dudekugel: OK. I'm not convinced it's an error though.
18:51:38kugeland I can't remember seeing any of the others yet
18:52:07kugelBlue_Dude: it can show unexpected audio stop too
18:52:09Blue_Dudekugel: The others only occur when −−debugaudio is active.
18:53:24Blue_Dudekugel: So should they be DEBUG again, or should logc be enabled by default in that file?
18:53:44 Part javacris
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18:56:18Tornehm. repainting the screen takes 0.15 seconds while unboosted, then
18:56:22Tornethat's kinda slow
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18:56:38Torneexplains why scrolling the entire screen one line at a time sucks so hard :)
18:57:44gevaertsTorne: if you don't need to do that too often, just boost for the duration
18:57:45Tornei need a better buffering strategy.
18:57:46kugelBlue_Dude: so, say the one stays, and the other are only with -debugaudio, nothing would change actually (except needing an extra define)?
18:58:07Tornegevaerts: the problem is that it scrolls one line at a time
18:58:13Torneif it scrolled the screen all at once that'd be fine as it is
18:58:19kugel0.15s is horribly slow, which target is that on?
18:58:21gevaertsTorne: yes, but probably only if someone does something
18:58:26Tornebut scrolling up 30-odd lines for the entire screen means repainting 30 times
18:58:35Tornewhich is immediately 4.4s
18:58:39kugelyou could run test_fps to see the real refresh time
18:58:40LloreanTorne: Do you need to scroll? Can you just redraw everything instead?
18:58:43Tornekugel: this is printing text
18:58:46LloreanSmooth scrolling isn't liked by everyone anyway
18:58:47TorneLlorean: this is redrawing.
18:58:55Tornei don't get a choice
18:58:58Torneit's a text console
18:59:01LloreanTorne: but I mean, step everything up one whole line, then redraw the screen once, rather than scrolling.
18:59:07TorneI am doing that
18:59:11Tornei'm not scrolling the grpahical data
18:59:15Tornei'm buffering the text as text
18:59:19Tornescrolling that in the text buffer
18:59:22Tornethen repainting the screen.
18:59:26Tornethe repaint takes 0.15s :(
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18:59:38kugelI can't really believe that
18:59:40Tornethe interpreter doesn't know how many more lines are going to be printed before the next prompt
18:59:45kugelI don't know what your code is like though
18:59:46LloreanTorne: What target?
18:59:49Torneipod video
18:59:55Tornekugel: it's a slow hack :)
18:59:59Torneit's printing one character at a time
19:00
19:00:01Tornefor an entire screenful
19:00:07LloreanThat's basically the slowest screen/processor combination.
19:00:10Tornedoing seperate utf8 encode/decode for each character
19:00:13LloreanAt least you're looking at a worst-case.
19:00:31Torneyah. the problem is that i'm repainting on scroll
19:00:35Tornei probably shouldn't
19:00:42kugelTorne: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/LcdFrameRate lists a better redraw time
19:00:45Tornei should be lazy and repaint just when everything stops :)
19:00:54Tornekugel: this is a *text buffer with formatting attributes*
19:01:00Tornebeing output one character at a time with lcd_putsxy
19:01:02kugelso?
19:01:06Torneit's nothing to do with the time lcd_update takes
19:01:13kugellcd_update just writes the framebuffer to the hardware
19:01:15Torneitg's the time it takes to do all the messing around with fonts
19:01:26kugelit doesn't matter what's in the frame buffer
19:01:36Torneit's not the lcd_update that i'm timing
19:01:43kugelwhat's repainting then?
19:01:45Torneit's the process of calling lcd_puts all those times
19:01:51Tornemy code, repainting the text console
19:02:05Blue_Dudekugel: Something like that. I put in the −−debugaudio outputs in myself last week and they're not too obnoxious. I was mainly targeting the sdl debug output, but if it's necessary then there no real point in patching that file.
19:03:02Tornekugel: i'm not complaining about any part of rockbox, to be clear
19:03:14Torne*my code* is too slow, because the zmachine is dumb and i've implemented it in a naieve way
19:03:14kugelTorne: so repainting is the whole thing, except for the just added line?
19:03:42linuxstbTorne: You just want to scroll the text up one line?
19:03:43Torneyah. it has to lcd_putsxy() every single character on the entire screen again, just to scroll up one line
19:03:49Tornelinuxstb: yup :)
19:03:50bertrikthe meizu m3 has a little piezo speaker connected to two pins
19:03:58bertrikis there anything in rockbox that could use that?
19:04:11bertrikkeyclick maybe? (that's what the OF seems to use it for)
19:04:17gevaertsyes
19:04:20Tornei think i need to just not draw anything on the screen at all until the user gets prompted for input
19:04:22gevaertsthat would be nice
19:04:25 Quit JdGordon| (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
19:04:27linuxstbTorne: Then just "memmove()" the lcd framebuffer... If you choose a font that is 8 pixels high, that will also be easy on mono/greyscale targets with vertically packed pixels.
19:04:29Tornethat will break games that expect unbuffered output but i can't see it being fast enough otherwise
19:04:45kugelTorne: if it's full width and height, you could advance the framebuffer with an relatively simple trick
19:04:49Tornelinuxstb: scroll region is an arbitrary rectangle
19:04:55Tornemeasured in character cells admittedly
19:04:56Tornebut still.
19:04:59Torneand it's using sysfont atm ;)
19:05:24Torneso yah. one way to do this would be to scroll in the framebuffer
19:05:35Tornei still need to buffer the text though, so i can redraw the screen after going to a menu
19:05:46Torneat that point a 0.15s redraw time is fine because that only has to be *once* :)
19:05:51kugelsomething like frame_buffer = framebuffer + LCD_WIDTH*LCD_HEIGHT*sizeof(fb_data)
19:06:15Tornekugel: it's any arbitrary region, but yes, i could do it by blitting
19:06:25kugelhm no, that probably wouldn't work
19:06:40Tornebut it's probably in reality much easier to just be lazy about updating the screen
19:06:51Torneat the cost of breaking games that expect to be able to output hwile they are processing.
19:07:14Tornethe dumbfrotz that i started with does that anyway :) i just assumed it'd be fast enugh not to have to bother
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19:08:09*Torne also wonders if the effort of searching the text buffer for consecutive runs of characters formatted the same would be worth it in the reduced number of calls to lcd_putsxy
19:08:10linuxstbNothing on the ipod video is "fast enough"...
19:08:34Torne0.15s is fast enough to get your screen back after going into a menu when you're playing a text adventure :)
19:08:44Torneand i can make it a bit better in the average case by, say
19:08:47Blue_Dudelinuxstb: The cleanup you mentioned is in FS #10366 . Thanks.
19:08:48Tornenot printing trailing whitespace
19:09:00Torne(or in fact any whitespace at all since i cleared the screen anyway)
19:09:21Blue_Dudekugel: The sound.c file is being left alone. Thanks also.
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19:16:57gevaertsTorne: indeed. First do the trivial optimisations and then see how bad it is :)
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19:37:41CIA-71New commit by 03rasher (r21464): Center the list on the currently loaded file in the following screens (FS #10093): ...
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19:56:04kugelrasher: "While Playing Screen" is maybe not a good idea
19:56:13rasherkugel: Oh?
19:56:32kugelI'd think it leads to that screen, instead of chosing a file which "formats" it
19:56:45rasherYou're inside "theme settings"?
19:57:17kugelyea, you changed "Browse .wps files" to "While Playing Screen"
19:57:23kugelI don't have a better idea though
19:57:43rasherI know. I just think it makes perfect sense, when you consider that it's "Theme settings > While Playing Screen"
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19:58:16kugelwe will see
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19:59:18ZincAlloyHi everybody. Is anybody else experiencing freezes when selecting files in the browser while rockbox is automatically changing directories?
20:00
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20:06:12CIA-71New commit by 03rob (r21465): TCC78x: Make the NAND driver yield during reads (thanks to bertrik for spotting the obvious error that caused this to crash until now). Fixes the D2 ...
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20:12:19kugelmeh
20:12:39kugelshotofads not here
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20:14:40LambdaCalculus37kugel: IIRC he's been quite swamped with a lot of real-life stuff and doesn't get much of a chance to do any Rockbox-related work.
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20:14:54kugelLambdaCalculus37: he just committed something ;)
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20:15:22LambdaCalculus37kugel: Maybe he just got a little free time? ;)
20:18:04CIA-71New commit by 03rasher (r21466): Make sure pwd is the same dir that holds runclient.sh and rbclient.pl.
20:18:07bertrikkugel, while playing with your fuze a bit at devcon, I noticed that the blue bar was not always the exact same colour, it seemed to depend on buttons too
20:18:07kugelLambdaCalculus37: it seems ;)
20:18:17kugelhuh
20:18:23kugelI didn't notice that
20:18:39bertrikI think I saw it in the debug/frequency screen
20:18:59bertrikincrease the frequency to bring up the blue bars then press some buttons
20:19:08kugelwill try
20:19:13bertrikat least that's what I remember
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20:24:24linuxstbBryanJacobs: Hi, how are things going?
20:25:22BryanJacobslinuxstb: A-OK
20:25:38BryanJacobsI'm finishing up multi-file buffering
20:25:49BryanJacobsgoing to worry about reducing back-and-forth seeking later
20:25:55BryanJacobsyou saw my last status update email?
20:26:19linuxstbYes. Can you explain how your multi-file buffering works?
20:26:32BryanJacobsthe way I'm building it currently is as follows:
20:26:45linuxstbIs this with the actual Rockbox buffering code?
20:26:50BryanJacobs?
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20:27:00Mikachuit's never good when the first step is a question mark
20:27:09BryanJacobsdefine "actual" - I'm editing the latest Rockbox SVN with the goal of making it work on target
20:27:15BryanJacobsMikachu: :-P
20:27:27BryanJacobsthe "?" was in response to linuxstb's question
20:27:29linuxstbBryanJacobs: I mean is this something you've integrated into Rockbox, or is it a standalone test at the moment?
20:27:47BryanJacobslinuxstb: it's not done yet but it should work on target when I finish
20:27:57BryanJacobsnow, how I plan to have it work:
20:28:13BryanJacobsfirst, note that I'm not going to obsolete the current buffering methods
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20:28:21BryanJacobsthey'll remain available for all codecs to use
20:28:34BryanJacobsbut, when a codec wants multi-file buffering it can make a secondary set of calls instead
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20:28:48BryanJacobsfirst, it calls request_buffer multiple times - once per file it wants buffered
20:29:22BryanJacobsthen, it calls inform_consumed to tell the buffering layer to advance the buffer (like the advance_buffer call we had before)
20:30:09BryanJacobswhen it reaches the end of a buffer prematurely it calls block_on_buffer to sleep on filling
20:30:29BryanJacobsthat's the entire API, three calls
20:30:37BryanJacobsplus a free makes four I suppose
20:30:46linuxstbHmm, what do you mean by "when a codec wants"? The codec itself is loaded after buffering has happened.
20:31:12BryanJacobsthe way I envisioned it is that the codec is loaded after the "primary" file is buffered but before the secondary one
20:31:17BryanJacobsor tertiary etc
20:31:28Mikachuso would you throw away other cached primary files then?
20:31:30BryanJacobsthe codec needs to look at the header to determine if another file is needed, in the case of wavpack
20:31:44linuxstbAt that time, another codec may be running, decoding an earlier file.
20:32:12BryanJacobslinuxstb: as long as there's some buffer space remaining there shouldn't be an issue
20:32:20BryanJacobsif the buffer is full we need to wait for the other codec to free some
20:32:22linuxstbBefore the file is buffered, the "get_metadata()" function (in core Rockbox, not part of the loadable codec) is called. This parses the file, and can tell if it's a hybrid file.
20:32:42MikachuBryanJacobs: what if there are four files in the buffer, first is wavpack, the other 3 are mp3, and it is full, what happens?
20:32:42BryanJacobsI suppose it would be a good idea to hook in there instead of inside the codec
20:32:58BryanJacobsMikachu: we'd have to use the wavpack space >_<
20:33:19BryanJacobsI was kind of viewing the buffer as "mine" to steal when the wavpack codec is loaded
20:33:22BryanJacobsmaybe that's a mistake
20:33:33linuxstbBryanJacobs: Yes, I think so. That function reads data from the disk directly - there's no buffering API in the middle. So it can do what it wants, and read whatever it wants.
20:33:49linuxstbi.e. it uses the standard open() and read() functions.
20:33:53BryanJacobsI see that
20:34:09BryanJacobsmaybe we should try making the buffer a linked list of blocks
20:34:27BryanJacobswith each codec calling a function to get "its own" next block
20:34:37BryanJacobswhich returns a size as well as a pointer
20:35:21BryanJacobslike, struct { void* curptr, unsigned size } get_some_more_of_my_stuff(void* prevptr)
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20:35:58BryanJacobsthen a single codec can handle two files by holding onto two prevptrs at once
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20:36:07BryanJacobsdoes that sound good?
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20:39:05linuxstbI'm not sure I understand - what does a block contain?
20:39:17BryanJacobsa block is some binary data loaded from the disk
20:39:33BryanJacobswhatever has been read into the buffer
20:40:01BryanJacobsthe important logical change is that instead of storing the buffer as a straight ring, it's a set of linked lists
20:40:03linuxstbSo how does that help? The main problems that I can see are that you need to read from two files, which may not fit completely inside the buffer.
20:40:25BryanJacobsthey don't have to so long as we can give some of each file to the codec
20:40:52CIA-71New commit by 03kugel (r21467): Redo r21460 and r21462 so that it doesn't introduce a new #define. Patch by Jeffrey Goode, taken from FS #10366.
20:40:55BryanJacobsbuffer 50/50 at first and then perhaps an adaptive algorithm later
20:41:14BryanJacobsor we can give a hint when we open the file about how much to read at once
20:41:26BryanJacobsso, if there's only one file in the buffer it looks like this:
20:41:36BryanJacobsFILE1 chunk -> FILE1 chunk -> FILE1 chunk
20:41:42BryanJacobsif there are two it looks like this:
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20:42:13BryanJacobsFILE1 chunk -(ptr to slot 3), FILE2 chunk -(ptr to slot 4), FILE1 chunk, FILE2 chunk
20:43:01BryanJacobsit's like a malloc() implementation, kind of
20:43:26Torneit's exactly like a malloc implementatoin, really )
20:43:30linuxstbIsn't that going to result in 1) holes in the buffer; 2) the data not being contiguous?
20:43:38BryanJacobsyes to both
20:43:45Mikachuso did we solve the problem of identifying the file before the codec is opened?
20:43:49BryanJacobsthe holes are free spots available for further buffering
20:44:10BryanJacobsMikachu: the file identification isn't the problem, it's just that after the codec is opened it can ask for additional files
20:44:26BryanJacobsfor example, album art files named in APE tags or some such
20:44:26Mikachuso you're going to always reserve some empty buffer space in case a codec needs another file?
20:44:35Mikachuisn't this going to cause some disk seek every time you play a hybrid file?
20:44:47BryanJacobsMikachu: yes, how could that be avoided?
20:44:50Mikachubecause you don't know which secondary file you need until it already started playing
20:44:58MikachuBryanJacobs: that was what i was asking i guess :)
20:45:11BryanJacobswe either have to waste disk time opening a correction file we don't need, or we have to spin up when we load the file
20:45:16Mikachufile format aware buffering code
20:45:20BryanJacobseither way we could end up losing
20:45:42BryanJacobsMikachu: could still be wrong if a correction file is present but mismatched/unneeded
20:45:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:46:05linuxstbThe get_metadata() function should be able to work all that out.
20:46:06Mikachucouldn't you just put the code that determines if it is unneeded in the bufferer instead of the codec?
20:46:26BryanJacobslinuxstb: get_metadata can't read the correction file, so if the .wvc is wrong/broken it won't know
20:46:32BryanJacobsexample:
20:46:40linuxstbWhy can't it read it?
20:46:43Tornesurely you're not optimising for the case where files are wrong/broken though
20:46:59Torneas long as the system doesn't totally fall over when that happens it's fine, no? :)
20:47:06BryanJacobsTorne: yeah, I suppose so
20:47:06 Quit Cory` ("There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.")
20:47:16BryanJacobsok, so we read both files at metadata time
20:47:28BryanJacobsand compare headers/make sure they match
20:47:32BryanJacobsright?
20:47:52linuxstbBryanJacobs: You can if it's needed. Although maybe we'll decide that just checking a file exists is enough of a check.
20:47:54Tornei was implying you could just assume they will match
20:48:07Torneand if at playback time it turns out not to just throw it away
20:48:10Mikachuwhy is a broken correction file more serious than a broken primary file? :)
20:48:13Torneand take the performance hit of having buffered something useless
20:48:27BryanJacobsOK, deal, we say "silly users, name your files correctly"
20:48:30Mikachu(except that it takes up more buffer space)
20:48:40Torneas long as it doesn't actually *crash* who cares. silly users. :)
20:48:47BryanJacobsso then we do need file-format-aware buffering code
20:48:53Mikachui think you have to be a pretty advanced user to use these hybrid files in the first place, right?
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20:49:04BryanJacobsbecause otherwise we can't determine which secondary file(s) are needed
20:49:17BryanJacobshow else do we know to add 'c' to the filename to find the correction file?
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20:49:26TorneBryanJacobs: no, you just need some way for get_metadata to communicate this fact to eh buffering code
20:49:39Torneget_metadata gets called for the primary file, it can do what it likes, go look for the secondary one
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20:49:41Mikachuis get_metadata a function in the codec?
20:49:42linuxstbBryanJacobs: Yes, that's how I always thought your project would go - making the buffering code aware that there's a second file to buffer, and maybe even using wavpack-specific buffering code.
20:49:50BryanJacobsget_metadata says buffer_get(primary_file+"c")?
20:49:55TorneMikachu: no, it's in core
20:49:58Mikachuokay
20:50:03linuxstbAlthough there's an obvious downside to that approach (wasted code in the core for 99% of users)
20:50:12TorneMikachu: but it's implemented seperately for each container format
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20:50:32BryanJacobslinuxstb: the way I interpreted the attitude of the developers at my interview, I thought the goal was to produce something as generic as possible
20:50:43BryanJacobsthey, generalized multi-file buffering instead of codec-specific code
20:50:47BryanJacobs*thus
20:51:02BryanJacobsI have no objection to doing it either way
20:51:09Mikachubut with the other approach, the file isn't buffered at all, if i got you right
20:51:23Mikachuthe whole point of buffering is to avoid spinups for as long as possible (i think)
20:51:33*Torne would think the buffering stuff should just be general, and get_metadata should handle asking for the generic buffer stuff to do the extra files.
20:51:37linuxstbMy impression was that we want a general framework, with an implementation specific to wavpack hybrid. i.e. make it easier for others to do the same for other formats. But yes, I think we need the input of other devs before going too far down a particular road.
20:52:07BryanJacobsI like the idea of changing buffering to behave like malloc
20:52:17CIA-71New commit by 03pondlife (r21468): Allow use of timestretch with semitones in the pitchscreen. Rename variables to clarify the meaning of 'speed'.
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20:52:19TorneBryanJacobs: other people are unlikely to, probably :)
20:52:20BryanJacobsis there a particular downside to having noncontiguous regions?
20:52:24Torneat least descrbed like that
20:53:04BryanJacobsI mean, you go codec(region_1), reg2 = next_region(region_1), codec(reg2), reg3 = next_region(reg2), ...
20:53:11BryanJacobsis the overhead really that bad?
20:53:25Tornein nice cases, probably not
20:53:28linuxstbBryanJacobs: Yes, codecs expect their data to be contiguous. Or at least, to receive small chunks of contiguous data.
20:53:44BryanJacobsthey would be receiving small chunks of contiguous data
20:53:51domonokycant we just make a codec specific loading function ? so those two files are treated as one (maybe with interleaving) ?
20:54:02TorneBryanJacobs: but they might have opinions on the alignment/etc of that data?
20:54:06BryanJacobsdomonoky: yes, but that's almost useless to other codecs
20:54:16TorneBryanJacobs: they may want, say, whole frames
20:54:22BryanJacobsTorne: malign is like an aligned malloc :-P
20:54:24 Quit HBK (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:54:29BryanJacobsor you could set a minimum chunk size
20:54:32TorneBryanJacobs: i mean with respect to the data in the input file
20:54:36Tornenot the locatin in memory
20:54:40Mikachui like how bad the word "malign" is for that function
20:54:41domonokyBryanJacobs: why, other codecs could do the same, metadata.c registering a codec specific loading callback.
20:54:46Tornethey might want to only read entire frames
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20:54:56Torneas contiguous regions
20:55:00Tornewhere the frame size is variable )
20:55:01linuxstbThe codec API guarantees that the get_buffer() function returns a pointer to the next 32KB of data. The only time this function requires a memcpy currently is at the buffer wraparound point (i.e. once every 29MB or so on most targets).
20:55:07Mikachudomonoky: but you can't call codec specific code if the codec isn't loaded
20:55:36BryanJacobslinuxstb: so why not always make it at most 32KB worth of data?
20:55:36domonokyMikachu: it ofcouse has to stay in the metadata code, to be available at loading time.
20:55:41Mikachuright okay
20:55:41BryanJacobsthen we don't have real malloc issues
20:55:48BryanJacobswe just divide the buffer into 32KB chunks
20:55:55BryanJacobsand chain together chunks as we like
20:56:03BryanJacobsoverhead: one function call per 32K of data decoded
20:56:14linuxstbBryanJacobs: Because a codec may only use 24KB of it, then it expects the next request to contain the final 8KB of that data, plus the next 24KB.
20:56:32BryanJacobslinuxstb: hmm.
20:56:37BryanJacobshow often does that happen?
20:56:39TorneBryanJacobs: the entire api is set up as "it's a ring buffer", basically :)
20:56:47linuxstbBryanJacobs: All the time in most codecs.
20:56:48BryanJacobsif the next chunk is free, we don't have to memcpy
20:56:51BryanJacobs<sigh>
20:57:10BryanJacobsok, that sounds bad - we have to copy the 8k into a new chunk iff the next chunk is in use
20:57:11linuxstbi.e. lots of codecs don't know the size of the frame until after it's been decoded. But they know it's no bigger than 32KB.
20:57:24bertrikwhat other rockbox targets have an actual speaker onboard?
20:57:26TorneBryanJacobs: yah. so then fragmentatin starts to become very expensive
20:57:37*domonoky still thinks a codec specific loading function is the way to go, to not spend the whole summer on buffering issues :-)
20:57:44BryanJacobsI feel I might have been to ambitious
20:57:47BryanJacobs*too
20:57:56Tornedomonoky: interleaving/etc only works if you know the relative rate at which you will consume the files
20:58:13Tornedomonoky: if you might end up using up most of file A and only using a bit of file B, but don't kow that ahead of time, interleaving doesn't work
20:58:13Mikachui assume both files are variable bitrate too?
20:58:25BryanJacobsMikachu: yes
20:58:47BryanJacobswell, you don't know the number of bits/frame
20:59:07BryanJacobsbut you do know bits/block after you read the block header
20:59:09Mikachuam i also right in assuming the whole correction file won't fit in the buffer on most targets?
20:59:21BryanJacobsthe correction file can be 3x the lossy
20:59:22BryanJacobsin size
20:59:35BryanJacobsso, no, that's not a good approach
20:59:38Mikachuwell, it trivially won't since songs can be any length :)
20:59:51TorneMikachu: assume 74-minute prog rock odyssey :)
20:59:59domonokyyou should never trust that a file fits in memory.. we have targets with small buffers :-)
21:00
21:00:01Mikachumy point is that if you interleave, you have to do it exactly, otherwise you will overwrite yourself when you wrap around
21:00:22Torneooh, that's a thought
21:00:27Torneif you are imagining what i think you are
21:00:27BryanJacobsnot necessarily - there are internal 1k buffers in the wavpack codec
21:00:48Torneinterleave the files in such a fashion that you effectively have two entire interleaved ring buffers
21:00:57BryanJacobssorry all, I've g2g, I'll be back in 30 mins - 1 hour
21:01:07BryanJacobsTorne: isn't that kind of like what I was describing?
21:01:13BryanJacobstwo linked lists occupying the same space?
21:01:21BryanJacobsbbl
21:01:21TorneBryanJacobs: no, i'm talking about having an entirely fixed arrangement
21:01:26Tornenot a linked list
21:01:38Torneand with no possibility to free it in holes.
21:01:42Mikachuif so, wouldn't it be better to have the ring buffers be separate areas, instead of interleaved?
21:01:46gevaertsa möbius buffer?
21:02:24TorneMikachu: well, you could.. i don't know that that mixes with single-file use though?
21:02:30 Quit HBK (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:02:36Tornethis is just a wild thought i'm having, not a fully considered solution :)
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21:02:48AlexPbertrik: The connect has a speaker if you fancing doing the port :)
21:02:50Mikachuit sounds like permanent interleaving would mess with them much more
21:03:00Tornenot permanent, just while buffering that file
21:03:05Mikachuah
21:03:20Torneso if the whole thing fits in the buffer then it's the same as loading one then the other from everyone else's POV
21:03:28bertrikAlexP, the connect looks like too much work to port I think
21:03:32Torneand if not then eventually you wrap around and the entire buffer contains interleaved bits of the thing you are buffering
21:03:42AlexPbertrik: Ye of little faith :)
21:03:55Torneuntil you've buffered up to the end of both files, at which point you start using wherever the later buffer finishes as the single ring buffer again for the next file
21:03:59Tornei'm not sure that makes sense )
21:04:06Torneor is any better tahn any other way of doing it
21:04:25MikachuTorne: the problem i meant earlier was you have a buffer of 5 MB, you load 1MB primary file and 4MB secondary file, and when you reach the end, you still have 200kB unused primary file, but you can't continue reading the secondary one
21:04:44Mikachuso that would be solved with your permanent pattern
21:04:47Torneyah, so you read them in 128kb chunks interleaved
21:04:59Tornethen if you've run out of one file you just refill the alternate blocks
21:05:05Torneand leave the other file's bits alone
21:05:08Mikachuwell, the ratio would be up for debate
21:05:16Tornewell yah. it would have to be static though
21:05:22Torneso get_metadata would have to propose a suitable one
21:05:35Tornebut yah the point is to not try and free buffers as you go along, more or less
21:05:43Mikachubut i guess when you're listening to lossless you don't expect no spinups anyway (double negation intended)
21:05:46Torneyou may have to live with bad choices of ratio
21:06:13Tornebut the thing in my imagination here at least wouldn't itnerfere with the subsequent files to be buffered
21:06:33Torneit'd be a reasonable distance from making optimal use of the available buffer space, though
21:07:16Torne...hm
21:07:25 Quit KBH (Connection timed out)
21:07:25Torneyeah it doesn't actually matter if you interleave or not then
21:07:38Torneoh, no, wait.
21:07:46Torneif you already have the previous tracks buffered it does.
21:07:54Tornesay, half the buffer is full of mp3
21:08:08Torneyou can't just divide the other half of the buffer up, because then you'd be wasting the rest of ram once the mp3s are played
21:08:11Torneso interleaving does help
21:08:14Mikachuif you don't interleave, you would get my two circular buffers instead
21:08:27Torneyah. but that only works as well if ram is empty to start with
21:08:29Tornewhich it usually won't be
21:08:45Torneinterleaving means you can buffer 'a bit more' later and take yup the space that wasn't free before.
21:08:54Mikachuyeah
21:09:09Torneso, yah, i *think* it works
21:09:19Torneit's not going to be optimal for buffering the multi-file track
21:09:26Torneunless your guessed ratio is spot on
21:09:38Tornebut i think youc an do it without interfering with the previous/next thing in the buffer..
21:09:49Mikachumaybe you could (ab)use the tag cache or dircache to store optimal ratios for files?
21:09:55linuxstbThe ratio can be guessed by the size of the two files - I would expect that would be quite close.
21:10:00Tornelinuxstb: probably
21:10:20Mikachuyeah, optimally you would reach the end of both files at the same time :)
21:10:34Tornewell you would reach the end at the same tim in almost all cases
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21:10:42Torneunles the codec is very weird :)
21:10:51Tornebut you may get out of sync inbetween 0
21:11:08Mikachuyeah, but if you get out of sync in between and change the ratio, you will be out of sync at the end instead
21:11:26Tornei wasn't imagining you'd ever change the ratio once you started buffering the track
21:11:38Tornekeep it static and the buffering code doesn't need to be *too* complicated
21:11:51Mikachuno i didn't mean dynamically
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21:11:54Torneof course the codec using this would have to not expect the restriction linuxstb explained above
21:12:02Mikachurather, the same files with another ratio, you would be out of sync at the end
21:12:07Torneit would have to be happy with getting back noncontiguous data ;)
21:12:26Mikachubut say for things like .psf files that have a .psflib, it would be a different matter
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21:12:42Tornei don't know anything about any of these codecs, admittedly )
21:12:46Torneno idea what wavpack is
21:12:50Mikachuit's more like a midi file and patchset i think
21:13:15Mikachu(the .psf ones - playstation music)
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21:13:26Mikachuwavpack is a lossy/lossless codec (you probably got this part already :)
21:13:26Torneah
21:13:32Torneyeah i inferred as much
21:13:40AshexWhy is it that the Utility makes all directories read only when I try to install a theme?
21:13:44Tornepatchset type formats are a totally different problem to buffer
21:13:55Torneunless the entire patchset fits in ram you are basically stuffed
21:14:02Mikachuyeah
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21:16:41linuxstbThe other buffering issue we have are large non-streaming formats like MOD, where the codec needs constant random access to the entire file.
21:16:52 Quit Hillshum (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
21:17:05Torneyah, that's just the worst case of patchset type buffering
21:17:07Mikachuthat is basically the same issue as the patchset ones then
21:17:14Tornewhere the random-access bit is 100% of the file instead of a smaller percent :)
21:17:15AshexIt's a bit annoying. I've got a udev rule that automounts a usb device rw and rockbox makes the directories read only and complains that it can't install a theme
21:17:46gevaertsAshex: rockbox doesn't make anything read only
21:18:16Ashexgevaerts, I meant the utility
21:18:55gevaertsAshex: that shouldn't do that either. Check your dmesg output for related messages. You may have a corrupted filesystem
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21:23:27*linuxstb wonders if anyone is working on mp3-hd - mp3 with a lossless correction file stored in an id3v2 tag...
21:23:43linuxstbI mean working on reverse-engineering mp3-hd...
21:24:11funmanlinuxstb: how spread is mp3-hd ? (never heard about it)
21:24:20Ashexgevaerts, yep. looks like fs corruptions
21:24:55linuxstbfunman: It's relatively new - I would be surprised if it catches on...
21:26:20Tornedidn't fraunhofer do something like that before with mp3pro?
21:27:09Tornethough not lossless, just 'better'
21:27:13merbananthey did
21:27:22merbananmp3 with sbr
21:27:43Torneand nobody on earth cared because it was proprietary and nothing played it? :)
21:27:45linuxstbmerbanan: Do you know of anyone showing any interest in mp3-hd? Isn't it based on some AAC+correction file format?
21:28:34merbananno idea
21:29:01merbananfraunhofer for sure
21:29:42Tornewhat is the actual use case for these formats? Is it just to be backward compatible with your crappy player without having to transcode?
21:30:00Torneor is there some other benefit i'm missing? :)
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21:43:19funmanI'm trying to write recording support for Sansa AMS but the recording thread deadlocks when I start recording :/
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21:44:23funmani am not sure if the problem is in my code since i don't see any ams-specific functions being called except pcm_rec_dma_get_peak_buffer()
21:46:13CIA-71New commit by 03bertrik (r21469): Meizu lcd-m3: whitespace fixes
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21:51:08CIA-71New commit by 03pondlife (r21470): Oops.
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21:58:41kugelbertrik: any idea why shotofads decided for USEC_TIMER, and not plain ticks like AMSes do, that way tcc77x wouldn't be excluded
21:58:51kugel?
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22:00
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22:03:19bertrikkugel, no I don't know, but what do you mean by plain ticks?
22:03:43bertrikI think the idea is not to wait, but to make sure it does a yield once every milisecond
22:03:49 Join shotofadds [0] (n=rob@rockbox/developer/shotofadds)
22:04:16shotofaddskugel: the answer is simple the AMS Sansa ports didn't exist when I first wrote that code ;)
22:04:51shotofaddsI'd been trying to get yielding to work in that driver for quite some time
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22:14:11bertrikI should probably commit the meizu pwm backlight stuff
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22:19:27Chestetahello, does anyone know when the disk corruption issues began for the ams devices?
22:19:59 Join BeChris [0] (i=5c89760a@gateway/web/freenode/x-95a69a6467b0291b)
22:20:40bertrikif there's anyone, it's probably funman who knows
22:20:51BeChrisHello everybody
22:20:53ChestetaI noticed some problems when I tried patch 10344 however there were other patches applied also (I 'added' that one to the other applied patches) and noticed I could not see my SD card
22:21:12bertrikbut I think it's only getting better as time goes on, not worse
22:21:13fmlCan FS #5080 be closed now that r21464 has been committed?
22:21:37Chestetathen I was gone for the weekend and when I came back and there was posting about disk issues
22:24:41Chestetaoh, so the disk issues have been there all along? (there is no 'new' issue that makes things 'more likely' to be messed up?)
22:24:57bertrikI think patch 10344 is a nice experiment, but has possible stability issues
22:25:00linuxstbfml: I guess so, although it doesn't do what 5080 wanted - highlighting the theme...
22:25:24 Quit goffa_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:25:30funmanChesteta: it began when fs#10048 was committed
22:25:40Chestetaok, thank you
22:25:50funmanbertrik: why stability ?
22:26:48fmllinuxstb: is it in principle possible to highlight a theme? Is it stored at all?
22:26:52bertrikthe datasheet mentions 1.1V but the patch uses 1.05V. Also some time might be needed between switching back to full voltage and boosting.
22:27:37funmanyou mean after modifying the voltage by I2C ?
22:27:41rasherfml: It's not stored, no. We'd need to store themes when they are selected, which could prove difficult to do reliably
22:28:03funmanperhaps saratoga could do measurements and comment on FS #10344
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22:28:47fmlrasher: that's what I thought (that he theme is not stored). All the settings from the theme are loaded, but the name of the theme file is not saved. So I'll close FS #5080.
22:29:17kugelshotofadds: oh you had that fix locally for some time already?
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22:29:25Chestetafunman, if you missed my comment earlier; my e280v2 did not see my sd card when I applied 10344 *however* i had other patches applied too so its just something to look into, not necessarily a problem
22:30:24rasherfml: Well we could try to store the name of the theme, but it's not possible to do in the same easy way as the other settings
22:30:29funmanChesteta: i don't want to know about any bug report for storage driver
22:30:30rasherfml: I'm fine with closing it
22:30:55Chestetaok, understood
22:30:56funmanI already know that it doesn't work, and that the problems randomly appear/disappear
22:31:14funmanso I think precise bug reports won't help finding the exact cause
22:31:16BeChrisPlease, I need some help concerning my png plugin
22:31:33shotofaddskugel: yeah, but it was causing a crash until bertrik's fix (the mutex wasn't being initialized properly)
22:31:35fmlrasher: IMO it would be easy to store the theme name. The problem is that once you manually change e.g. the font you no more have that theme.
22:32:29kugelfml, linuxstb: the problem with theme files is that it's just a collection of settings. Change one theme setting and it's technically not the theme anymore. Change more and you totally obfuscate it so that it wouldn't make any sense to still select it. There's no reliable way I think
22:32:54kugelshotofadds: Ah, I see. I think with using the normal tick the tcc77x could also be fixed
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22:33:10fmlkugel: exactly what I said
22:33:39kugelalthough I'm not sure why we've chosen 5ticks
22:33:52shotofaddsi was going to ask about 5 ticks vs. 1000us
22:34:24shotofaddsI think the best thing is to implement the proper timer on 77x and then they can both use the existing method
22:34:32 Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:34:33kugelwell, given that 1000us should be 1ms, 5 ticks are 50 times of that
22:34:59funmanprobably randomly choosed
22:35:27kugelshotofadds: I'm actually not sure if ticks might be preferable or not
22:35:50bertrikwhere are these 5 ticks you speak of?
22:35:59funmani have not seen latency problems with the ams SD driver
22:36:07funmanbertrik: delay before yielding in sd driver
22:36:58shotofaddsnot "delay before yielding", rather "period between yields"
22:37:13kugelfunman: the problem is that other threads might need to run more often
22:37:34kugelfor example, the backlight thread runs every 3 ticks while backlight fading
22:37:54BryanJacobsback
22:38:25funmankugel: ok
22:38:33kugelwell, every 4 for our targets, but still
22:39:50fmlDo we want to have a special WPS token for "skip length" (FS #8965) or is the %St (generic tag for setting values) tag enough?
22:40:08fmlI'd like to either commit or reject FS #8965
22:40:11JdGordon|probbaly not'
22:40:18BryanJacobslinuxstb: you still there?
22:40:43fmlJdGordon: was your response for me?
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22:42:38linuxstbBryanJacobs: Yes
22:42:40JdGordon|fml: it was.... I seem to remember a discussion about not adding more tags which would double up...
22:42:44kugelcan the %St be used conditionally in some kind?
22:42:49JdGordon|so.. I think %St would be good enough
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22:43:07BryanJacobslinuxstb: how about we relax the "always returns 32K contiguous data" restriction?
22:43:23 Quit perrikwp (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:43:33linuxstbBryanJacobs: That's likely to break a lot of codecs...
22:43:36BryanJacobswe tell the codecs "and I won't give you a fresh chunk until you're done with the one you want"
22:43:40TorneBryanJacobs: that could hurt the performance of a lot of codecs even if they were fixed
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22:43:50fmlkugel: the wiki page says that %St can also be used in conditionals
22:44:00kugelso just reject
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22:44:09BryanJacobswell, it only has to be that way for codecs that opt in
22:44:15BryanJacobsthe others could have a ring buffer
22:44:30TorneBryanJacobs: did you read my suggestion just after you left?
22:44:37BryanJacobsyes, that's what gave me the idea
22:44:46BryanJacobsI just got through reading the discussion up there
22:45:02Tornewell, yah, if you implemented that then the codecs that want to read from multiple files would have to be willing to take the data in the interleaved form
22:45:11Tornebut other codecs wouldn't have to change
22:45:26BryanJacobsyou said "you'd be wasting the rest of the ram once the mp3s are played"
22:45:29BryanJacobsbut that's not accurate
22:45:34Tornehm?
22:45:38BryanJacobsbecause as the mp3s are played you can start buffering into that space
22:45:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:46:01Tornenono, i was talking about having the buffers allocated seperately as Mikachu suggested
22:46:05BryanJacobsah, ok
22:46:07BryanJacobsmy mistake
22:46:08Torneif you itnerleave them then yes you can keep streaming into fresh space
22:46:23BryanJacobsI don't see a problem with this scheme
22:46:33Torneand when you get to the point that you are using the whole of ram for the itnerleaved buffers, you wrap each buffer seperately
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22:46:51BryanJacobs"wrap each buffer separately"?
22:46:57ZagorTorne: I didn't get how the correction works if the guess turns out wrong
22:47:00BryanJacobsthey don't "wrap" at all
22:47:11Tornethey do if the files combined are bigger than ram..
22:47:19TorneZagor: you don't
22:47:30Zagorok, what do you do?
22:47:34TorneZagor: if you run out of one file you start buffering more of that file into the space where it was
22:47:37BryanJacobsTorne: you don't have to store a chunk that's later in the file later in the buffer
22:47:47BryanJacobsit doesn't have to be linear like that
22:47:53BryanJacobsthe codec just asks for the "next" chunk
22:47:57Torneyou mean overwrite played parts of the other file
22:48:01BryanJacobswhich could be higher or lower in RAM
22:48:05BryanJacobsyes, that's what I mean
22:48:16Torneyah. but i'm talking about not bothering to keep that level of accounting
22:48:17BryanJacobswhat's "wrapping" by that definition?
22:48:27BryanJacobsI think it might be beneficial to do so
22:48:28Torneexactly like it was a normal ring buffer
22:48:41Tornewhen you get to the end just wrap around ram and start from the beginning
22:48:48Torneoffset by the stride amount if you aren't the first one :)
22:48:58Tornesuch that you would ventually overwrite your own data, but not the other files's
22:49:04BryanJacobsbut then you have this complicated "if-legacy-stuff-here" logic
22:49:13Tornei.e. you literally interpret ram as two ring buffers
22:49:15 Join krazykit [0] (n=kkit@c-24-218-166-241.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
22:49:18BryanJacobsand you can't arbitrarily change the ratio of buffering the files
22:49:20Tornewhich happen to be interleaved on a fixed buffer size
22:49:23BryanJacobsand you can't buffer more than two files
22:49:25Tornehm?
22:49:27 Join perrikwp [0] (n=perrikwp@rrcs-24-172-12-65.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
22:49:30Tornesure you can
22:49:34Tornejust interleave it 3 ways
22:49:37Torneor 4 ways
22:49:38Torneor whatever.
22:49:45Torneand you can do a new ratio/split for each file
22:49:53BryanJacobsI don't get it; only one file can have the block at buffer address 0
22:49:55Tornei don't mean doing this permanently
22:50:01BryanJacobsoh, I do.
22:50:05Torneyah
22:50:10Tornethat's my *entire point* :)
22:50:20Torneyou start doing this at the point in teh buffer where the last track ends and you start buffering the multifile track
22:50:32Torneand you stop and go back to linear buffering afterward
22:50:35BryanJacobsbut then you could get another "traditional" track after it
22:50:37Torneor re-split with different parameters if needed
22:50:43Torneyes. so?
22:50:49Torneyou start from the later of the two buffer ends
22:51:07Torneand just ignore the space inbetween until the data has been played to catch up
22:51:11Tornei'm not suggesting this is optimal, but it's a minimal amount of accounting
22:51:27Torneand it means regular buffering bhaves the same as now
22:51:33Torneso there's no effect on codecs that aren't doing this
22:51:40ZagorI quite like it
22:51:50Zagor...I think :)
22:51:58Torneif i had a whiteboard it would be easier :0
22:52:07BryanJacobsah - I get it
22:52:07BryanJacobsI'm not sure this is as efficient as arbitrarily chained chunks, though
22:52:07BryanJacobsand it might be harder to manage
22:52:13Torneit's not as efficient, no
22:52:19Tornebut the point is that it prbably doesn't matter a lot
22:52:28BryanJacobsI still like the idea of having a chunk-list in the space not being used by the traditional track
22:52:28BryanJacobs*track(s)
22:52:46BryanJacobsI think you might be right
22:52:46Torneyah. but there are reasons why rockbox traditionally avoids anything remotely malloc-like :0
22:53:12Torneyou could just reuse any spare bit *in the gap*, actually
22:53:15Tornerather than wrapping very strictly
22:53:27Tornejust use up any played block that's after an unplayed block
22:53:34BryanJacobs<shrug> I intuitively tend toward the malloc-like solution but don't care enough to mind doing it the other way
22:53:44Tornesuch that the portion of the buffer you are using is generally as compact as possible
22:53:51Zagorwe'll get one watermark per file. that's sure to cause amusement :-)
22:53:56Tornein order to leave the most space to go back to being a regular ring buffer afterwards.
22:54:01kugelZagor: something to test for the build script? I'm currently running my 64bit dual core
22:54:01BryanJacobsZagor: ???
22:54:03Tornethat's effectively what it's doing
22:54:15Torneyouare basically just allocating by prioritising keeping allocated blocks near each other
22:54:18 Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
22:54:26Tornei.e. maximisng size of contiguous free space.
22:54:41 Join uPRiSePoDDeR [0] (n=4454db77@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-b534f25ce3eb883d)
22:54:43BryanJacobsyeah, my metric was minimizing total size of free space
22:54:53uPRiSePoDDeRhey whats up
22:54:57Zagorkugel: maybe. there still seems to be the issue of some build dirs not being removed.
22:54:58BryanJacobsie keeping as much stuff buffered as possible
22:55:07Torneyes, you can do taht as well
22:55:08uPRiSePoDDeRhow yall doin
22:55:09 Quit fml ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
22:55:12Tornewhile you are playing you want to use all the ram
22:55:21Tornebut my point is as you approach the end of the file you want the in-use bits to be squished up together
22:55:29Torneso you can start buffering the next file linearly
22:55:35Torneinstead of having to keep doing malloc-like operations
22:55:41uPRiSePoDDeRwhat makes the 1g so fucking different from the 2g 2 not be decrypted and hackable?
22:55:47BryanJacobsTorne: agreed.
22:55:58Torneso yes. you could still allocate non-lienarly, you are right
22:56:08Unhelpfulis there really no way, without full decoding, to determine which parts would need to be interleaved?
22:56:09ZagorBryanJacobs: with interleaved buffers, we have one pointer for each file. and they will not all reach the spinup watermark at the same time.
22:56:09Tornebut you want to be careful about the algorithm for it :)
22:56:15BryanJacobsZagor: ah.
22:56:21UnhelpfuluPRiSePoDDeR: apple is what made them so different.
22:56:25BryanJacobsTorne: agreed.
22:56:36BryanJacobslinuxstb: sound good to you?
22:56:38bertrikmarkun, some comments in system-s5l8700.c seem wrong (inconsistent with the datasheet), where do they come from?
22:56:46kugelZagor: I'm not getting a build
22:56:53bertrikI mean, was this code copied from some other target?
22:57:02uPRiSePoDDeRyeah but 2g is freakin classic now and its so old whyd they make the code so different?
22:57:08heftiguPRiSePoDDeR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPodLinux#Compatibility
22:57:11Zagorkugel: no I don't have it running. I haven't figured out what to try yet.
22:57:18TorneuPRiSePoDDeR: How should we know?
22:57:26uPRiSePoDDeRwill the 2g ever be crackable?
22:57:34kugelalright, I guess I can keep it running, and it will just pick it up once you do something?
22:57:37Unhelpfulpresumably so that we can't run non-apple code on it :P
22:57:42Tornehow should we know :)
22:57:42uPRiSePoDDeRcuzz i'd like 2 stick some porn videos on mine
22:57:47Zagorkugel: yes
22:57:51 Quit Llorean ("Leaving.")
22:57:54BryanJacobsuPRiSePoDDeR: it's so old, most people don't care anymore
22:57:58kugelgreat, /me's already loving the new system
22:58:11gevaertsuPRiSePoDDeR: please have a look at the channel guidelines. We do want real words here
22:58:16uPRiSePoDDeRno its so old it SHOULD be crackable it fucking pisses me off
22:58:39*BryanJacobs laughs at black-and-white port on a 1G
22:58:43BryanJacobs*porn
22:58:43rasherZagor: I did a slight modification of runclient.sh - I'd be surprised if it messes something up, but I guess you might want to keep your eyes open
22:58:46BagderZagor: do you have it setup somewhere on the server?
22:58:51heftiguPRiSePoDDeR: old does not mean crackable
22:58:58Torneyou realise we passed the point where properly implemented encryption is unbreakable by classical computers many, may years ago, right?
22:59:10Mikachuso this is a good example of something that could be in the op guidelines for what is kickable
22:59:25uPRiSePoDDeRi know its juss stupid how they made the code so different is that why i paid 712 for my LTD. addition red 1?
22:59:44BryanJacobsTorne: tell AACS that
22:59:58UnhelpfulBryanJacobs: no, *don't* tell them. ;)
23:00
23:00:02BryanJacobs"properly implemented" is very hard when you're not restricting people's ability to view their content
23:00:06BryanJacobsUnhelpful: heh
23:00:08TorneBryanJacobs: DRM is never properly implemented ;)
23:00:10rasheruPRiSePoDDeR: You're arguing against facts here. There's nothing we can do to change reality.
23:00:20 Quit krazykit` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:00:36uPRiSePoDDeRight my bad lol
23:00:39TorneBryanJacobs: even if AACS had no weaknesses at all people could still dump a new drive every week if they wanted to :)
23:00:53Torneit's effort, but it's not ultimately difficult :)
23:01:01BryanJacobsTorne: actually, look at Nokia's DRM... their applications are RSA signed
23:01:07TorneBryanJacobs: i work for nokia:)
23:01:10BryanJacobsI think they did it pretty solidly
23:01:11BryanJacobsoh wow
23:01:16*BryanJacobs didn't know that
23:01:17Tornei'm a security analyst in fact :)
23:01:29Torneand i've disassembled a lot of the programs people ahve written to crack the security on S60
23:01:29*BryanJacobs feels happy he wasn't dissing Nokia's security
23:01:29uPRiSePoDDeRwhat is the best texting phone to get from verizon my dad wants 2 switch soon? i know this is random
23:01:33Torneand we have a long way to go yet :)
23:01:38ErantIs everything signed? (Savegames etc)
23:01:40krazykituPRiSePoDDeR, it's offtopic. ask someone else
23:01:44krazykiter, somewhere else
23:01:56uPRiSePoDDeRk
23:01:59BryanJacobsTorne: I personally always wondered how those chinese people managed to generate devcerts
23:02:48rasherThe DRM talk is also going quickly offtopic guys.
23:02:55BryanJacobsrasher: already moved
23:03:21uPRiSePoDDeRso if its offtopic we cant talk about it?
23:03:30AlexPThat is what off topic means, yes
23:03:44uPRiSePoDDeRdoesnt that sound really stupid?
23:03:59AlexPWhat, your question?
23:04:07Mikachuzing
23:04:16uPRiSePoDDeRlike if u were talkin with friends they wouldnt yell at you cant go offtopic
23:04:27AlexPThis isn't a social channel
23:04:27Mikachuyou're not talking with friends
23:04:34AlexPIt is for support and development
23:04:37gevaertsuPRiSePoDDeR: I told you about real words before
23:05:07uPRiSePoDDeRno im afraid you didn't i dont speak NERD aka unsocialize laungage
23:05:12BagderuPRiSePoDDeR: this is #rockbox, we are on-topic even with friends
23:05:21AlexPuPRiSePoDDeR: Please stop now
23:05:45uPRiSePoDDeRlol im really scared
23:06:27uPRiSePoDDeR.
23:06:39Mikachudoes this count as understanding the rules and ignoring them?
23:06:45Mode"#rockbox +o Bagder " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:06:50Tornecan someone just remove it already? :)
23:06:51Mode"#rockbox +o AlexP " by Bagder (n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
23:06:56uPRiSePoDDeRwas that a mute?
23:06:58Mode"#rockbox +o rasher " by Bagder (n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
23:07:04Mode"#rockbox +o Zagor " by Bagder (n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
23:07:32uPRiSePoDDeR^wut does that mean?
23:07:41Mode"#rockbox +o Horscht " by Bagder (n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
23:07:47AlexPThat you can be muted, kicked or banned by anyone who is op
23:07:52AlexPSo please behave
23:08:11uPRiSePoDDeRlol i got a warning go ahead and ban me
23:08:33AlexPI'd rather not, I'd rather you just followed the guidelines
23:08:39 Join n1s [0] (n=n1s@rockbox/developer/n1s)
23:09:06 Quit uPRiSePoDDeR (Excess Flood)
23:09:24*BryanJacobs laughs
23:09:33 Join uPRiSePoDDeR [0] (n=4454db77@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-fa1a78ee8da25fcd)
23:09:53uPRiSePoDDeRlol was that a kick
23:09:56uPRiSePoDDeRa
23:09:57uPRiSePoDDeRs
23:09:59uPRiSePoDDeRf
23:10:10Kick(#rockbox uPRiSePoDDeR :Bagder) by Bagder!n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder
23:10:20Bagder_that_ was a kick
23:10:33 Quit merbanan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:10:47*BryanJacobs laughs harder
23:11:01Mode"#rockbox +b %*!n=4454db77@* " by rasher (n=rasher@rockbox/developer/rasher)
23:11:42agaffneyI doubt that will work
23:11:50agaffneyit's probably a session identifier or something like that
23:11:55Mikachuno, it's his ip in hex
23:12:01Mikachui think Bagder knows how his own webirc works :)
23:12:03agaffneyah :P
23:12:13AlexPMikachu: Except that was rasher
23:12:26*Bagder grins
23:12:27Mikachui only looked at the a and er parts
23:12:30Horschtlet me just.... remove that
23:12:34Mode"#rockbox -o Horscht " by Horscht (n=Horscht2@xbmc/user/horscht)
23:12:42Horschtit felt kind of akward
23:12:48agaffneyheh
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23:13:15Mikachui think rasher knows how Bagder's webirc works too though
23:13:24Mode"#rockbox -o AlexP " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:14:07Mikachujust for reference, you probably shouldn't make me op, i would have kickbanned him 10 minutes ago :)
23:16:11funman FS #10371 - Recording for Sansa AMS (not working)
23:16:30Mode"#rockbox +o gevaerts " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:16:31AlexPMikachu: Noted :)
23:16:35Mode"#rockbox -o gevaerts " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:16:38Mode"#rockbox -o rasher " by rasher (n=rasher@rockbox/developer/rasher)
23:18:33Mode"#rockbox +o rasher " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:18:44Mode"#rockbox -b %*!n=4454db77@* " by rasher (n=rasher@rockbox/developer/rasher)
23:18:48Mode"#rockbox -o rasher " by rasher (n=rasher@rockbox/developer/rasher)
23:20:25 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
23:21:09 Join kadoban [0] (n=mud@cpe-24-93-17-195.rochester.res.rr.com)
23:22:31kugelis the current_tick sort of guaranteed to start at 0?
23:22:58kugelso that I could a tick counter initialize at 0, instead of making it global just to init it with current_tick in another function?
23:23:18ZagorBagder: did you see I set up buildmaster.rockbox.org and changed the client for it?
23:23:27kugelfunman: what do you mean with crashes at 8px font, it actually works with other fonts?
23:23:55BagderZagor: I did, I was just curious if you have (where?) a dedicated server root for it
23:24:07funmanwith the default font it locks when starting recording, not as soon as entering the screen
23:24:18Mode"#rockbox -o Zagor " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:24:22BagderI thought about invoking the server and check a few things
23:24:24kugelthe "default" font isn't 8px
23:24:24Mode"#rockbox -o Bagder " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
23:24:35Zagor(taking it privately)
23:24:41funmankugel: yes
23:25:14kugelah, reading your sentence correctly helps a lot
23:25:20kugelweird thing anyway
23:26:04funmanyeah i just wanted to point that something weird happens ;)
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23:28:58kugelgevaerts: I'm wondering if we could at least go to charging mode if CONFIG_CHARGING is something but HAVE_USB_STACK is undefined
23:29:16kugelgoing to the usb screen is just the worst thing to do actually
23:29:23kugel(speaking of AMSes now)
23:29:48 Part BryanJacobs
23:29:53funmanmyself I wonder why HAVE_USB_STACK is required for rebooting into OF when usb is inserted
23:30:12kugelthat too
23:30:38gevaertsbecause you're supposed to implement the usb stack ;)
23:31:01gevaertsSeriouslu though, mostly historical reasons
23:31:02kugelit isn't of any use without usb, is it?
23:31:50gevaertsIf you want rebooting, I think the only bit of the USB stack you really need is the usb_detect() function
23:32:00kugelthe historical reason that you did the usb stack a seperate define and implement it earlier on targets so that you can hide the effective binsize usage of USB? =)
23:33:01gevaertspartly, yes :)
23:33:11kugelusb detection actually works already
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23:35:11AlexPBagder / Zagor: Should clients join half way through a run?
23:35:23Zagorsure
23:35:27AlexPSo if there was one happening, and I started one, it'd join in?
23:35:32Zagorclients can come and go as they like
23:35:40AlexPnice
23:35:45gevaertsBagder / Zagor: what's the (intended) difference between clientname and username?
23:35:47Bagderyes, a client will get builds immediately if during a build round
23:36:00 Join perrikwp [0] (n=perrikwp@rrcs-24-172-12-65.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
23:36:01Bagdergevaerts: the user is you, you may run many clients
23:36:03*AlexP starts a client
23:36:05Zagorgevaerts: username is the same for all your machines. clientname is different.
23:36:08gevaertsok
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23:37:09Mikachuis it plugged in for real now?
23:37:15 Quit perrikwp (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:37:29Bagderno, it'll come and go for a while
23:37:34ZagorFYI: we still have the bug where it sometimes fails to remove the build dir.
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23:38:50ZagorI don't understand how that happens. it runs "rm -r" on the dir, yet it stays there. Very puzzling. And it's not a permission thing since the same script creates the dir.
23:39:09 Join perrikwp [0] (n=perrikwp@rrcs-24-172-12-65.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
23:39:16Mikachuoutput ls -l and the arguments you give to rm every time, and see if it looks sane
23:39:36 Quit perrikwp (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:39:42*gevaerts adds a client
23:39:57 Join perrikwp [0] (n=perrikwp@rrcs-24-172-12-65.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
23:40:00kugelZagor: I always use rm -rf to delete dirs
23:40:14Mikachualso, there's no point saving $olddir in runclient.sh unless someone runs it with "source" (which is a bit silly)
23:40:15LambdaCalculus37kugel: Including / ? :P
23:40:19kugelalso, I think if you leave the trailing slash, the dir itself isn't deleted
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23:40:23LambdaCalculus37(Sorry, couldn't resist)
23:40:34ZagorMikachu: olddir?
23:40:36kugelLambdaCalculus37: it's ok, you're forgiven :)
23:40:48 Join perrikwp__ [0] (n=perrikwp@rrcs-24-172-12-65.midsouth.biz.rr.com)
23:40:56MikachuZagor: it does olddir="`pwd`" in runclient.sh, then cd "$olddir" at the end of the script
23:41:00Mikachuafter which point the shell process exits :)
23:41:11Mikachuvery unimportant though, you can keep it if you like
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23:41:41***Alert Mode level 1
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23:41:41DBUGsent MODE #rockbox +b *!*n=perrik*@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com
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23:41:41***Alert Mode level 3
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23:41:42***Alert Mode level 4
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23:41:42Mode"#rockbox +b *!*n=perrik*@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com " by logbot (n=bjst@rockbox/bot/logbot)
23:41:42Kick(#rockbox perrikwp__ :*bang* too many joined users) by logbot!n=bjst@rockbox/bot/logbot
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23:41:53kugelduh
23:42:15 Quit Hendrik_ ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]")
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23:42:28ZagorMikachu: oh, I didn't see that. rasher added it.
23:42:33Mikachuah
23:43:13rasherHrm, yeah that's not very useful
23:43:19kugelhow about unbanning?
23:43:25Zagorrasher: I must admit I don't see the point :)
23:43:47rasherZagor: With the cd "`dirname $0`", or with the olddir stuff?
23:44:23Zagortrying to be smarter than the user, I think :)
23:44:48kugelis this ban intended?
23:45:06 Quit n1s (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:45:09gevaertskugel: it's automatic
23:45:17Mikachudoes it unban automatically too?
23:45:23kugelwas it always like that?
23:45:34kugelI figured that it's automatic
23:45:41rasherZagor: the script requires that you're sitting in that dir, so why not make sure?
23:45:42Mikachuyou could just ban *_ in the first place
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23:45:49#>>"is an old battle bot, so it can be a bit harsh" by Zagor (n=bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor)
23:45:55gevaertsnot always. logbot tends to lose its op status every now and then
23:45:58Mikachurasher: if you're in the dir, but the script isn't, you broke it :)
23:46:01kugelMikachu: not a good idea
23:46:06Mikachu*__ then
23:46:11funmanneither
23:46:13kugelstill not :)
23:46:24rasherMikachu: say if I run /home/rasher/somedir/runclient.sh from cron, the cd is very helpful
23:46:28Zagorrasher: I'd rather have the script complain than trying to fix it
23:46:32 Join kperri [0] (n=18ac0c41@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-0bf2754fea51452c)
23:46:41Mikachurasher: running a script that has while true from cron is not the best idea ;) but sure
23:46:51rasherMikachu: @reboot
23:47:35Zagorrasher: run (cd /home/rasher/somedir && sh runclient.sh) instead
23:48:04rasherWhat's the argument against it?
23:48:18Mikachucd myrockboxcheckout; ~/scripts/runclient.sh
23:49:00Mikachuor if pwd is longer than PATH_MAX ;)
23:49:14rasherThe script complains about something it *knows* how to fix. That's just silly if you ask me
23:49:49CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
23:49:49*hillshum lets his system update
23:50:01*rasher shrugs
23:50:05rasherFeel free to remove
23:50:49Zagorit doesn't know. the user could run it as Mikachu says. I don't think it's a good idea, but the auto-fix would not fix it-
23:51:23Mikachuyou could make the cd conditional on [ -f rbclient.pl ] but that could be a bit too magic
23:51:43***Alert Mode OFF
23:51:43Zagorhence I'd rather have it complain that something seems odd and have the user do it right instead.
23:52:11kugelafterall it's for build servers that shouldn't do strange stuff anyway
23:52:28Mikachuand instead of while true, you might want while sleep 60 or something, in case i break my perl installation, that script will busyloop
23:52:35*gevaerts isn't entirely sure how the new build system fixes the trust issue. People may not see the incoming ssh connections anymore, but the update is not authenticated, so could be defeated by dns attacks
23:52:56Mikachuyou mean the svn update?
23:53:05gevaertsno, the build script update
23:53:50Zagorgah, I am an idiot. WNOHANG is not a good flag to use for waitpid if you really want to wait. copy/paste error :(
23:54:14rasherAutomatic updates won't work on cygwin due to windows' file locking shenanigans by the by
23:54:15Mikachuboo zagor, you suck
23:54:40Zagorrasher: ah, right
23:54:43AlexPbuild servers on cygwin doesn't sound a brilliant idea anyway
23:55:09gevaertsAlexP: maybe they will be needed for rbutil builds?
23:55:09kugelwe could reject those outright imo
23:55:25AlexPgevaerts: hmmm, could be
23:55:43kugelyou don't need cygwin for that AFAIK, just mingw
23:55:44Zagorgevaerts: yes, that is an issue. we discussed using SSL certificates for everything, but we're starting simple.
23:55:59 Quit kperri ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
23:56:46rasherZagor: runclient.sh could check for newrbclient.pl before running rbclient.pl I guess
23:56:49Mikachuif you're worried about dns poisoning you need to secure the svn connection too, otherwise some joker can put rm -rf / in the makefile
23:57:32Zagoryup. there are many holes.
23:57:44gevaertsZagor: my build servers are VMs, so damage will be limited anyway. I just find it a bit ironic that people like this for its enhanced accountability (no external logins ever!) while actually being less secure :)
23:57:57Mikachubut i think the target group is a little too small to motivate writing an exploit :)
23:58:00rasherHopefully people would set up a separate user for it
23:58:34Zagorgevaerts: I wouldn't say less secure. but not more either. the nice new thing is rather the more direct control you have, where you can start and stop as you like.

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