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#rockbox log for 2009-06-28

00:05:28 Quit WillHauck ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
00:07:29 Join WillHauck [0] (n=4b9fb4d0@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-cb5ecbec79fbca81)
00:08:03WillHauckNow Cygwin says Malformed patch at plugins/SOURCES. Can I edit this manually?
00:08:24rasher> This is the developers list. We talk source code, bugs, internal design, commit reviews, porting issues and how to write efficient code.
00:08:32rasherMaybe this should be changed to "development list"
00:08:45rasherAlthough I doubt anyone will notice
00:08:56gevaertsWillHauck: how are you trying to apply it?
00:09:09WillHauckNow Cygwin says Malformed patch at plugins/SOURCES. Can I edit this manually?
00:09:15Lloreanrasher: It's called "Rockbox development" nearly everywhere else.
00:09:19LloreanI'd say that's in error and need to be fixed.
00:09:48WillHauckSorry... patch −−binary -p0 filename.diff
00:09:50LloreanWe want non-developers there if they have relevant development talk (though arguably they're developers if they do, but they may not see that)
00:10:12WillHauckEverything before it worked (hunk succeeded)
00:10:54gevaertsWillHauck: no < ?
00:11:09WillHauckSorry
00:11:13WillHauckI did have that
00:11:35WillHauckThats the only part that didn't work
00:12:25gevaertswell, SOURCES is simple. It just needs a line saying "RockLock.c" somewhere
00:12:45saratogajust open the patch and grab the code out of it
00:12:55saratogaits just a plugin, can't take more then a minute or two to copy and paste the code
00:12:56gevaertsso just fire up your favourite editor, point it at plugins/SOURCES, and edit away
00:13:02WillHauckOK
00:14:29 Quit WillHauck ("CGI:IRC")
00:16:06 Join funman [0] (n=fun@rockbox/developer/funman)
00:17:49 Join matsl_ [0] (n=matsl@1-1-4-2a.mal.sth.bostream.se)
00:21:18saratogafunman: I'd be ok with sitting on voltage scaling until after we release for AMS, then see if anyone complains
00:21:37saratogathe patch sounds fine but if we're wrong it might be a long while before we realize it
00:22:01funmanhow could it be wrong (fs#10344) ?
00:22:33saratogaif we're wrong about the timing, its possible some people would have stability issues
00:22:44saratogathough I think thats unlikely
00:24:48funmancan't we block until switching has happened?
00:24:56 Nick efyx is now known as efyx`aw (n=efyx@lap34-1-82-224-140-171.fbx.proxad.net)
00:25:26saratogayeah that should be safe
00:25:45 Quit bertrik ("De groeten")
00:26:31Torneamiconn: while you're around, would you take a quick look at FS #10330 ? Changed xlcd_scroll_* to clear the screen if you scroll by a whole screenful or more
00:26:49Tornecurrently it does nothing which seems kinda odd
00:26:58Torneand i was having to special case it in my plugin
00:28:54 Quit ender` (" A man without religion is like a fish without a bicycle. -- Vique's Law")
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00:48:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:06:04 Quit matsl_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
01:07:04 Join AndyI [0] (i=AndyI@212.14.205.32)
01:07:38FaethinHey there
01:07:45 Quit evilnick_home (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:07:59 Part cmwslw ("Ex-Chat")
01:08:10Faethinis it possible to scrobble my iPod for last.fm using Rockbox?
01:09:05dfktyes it is
01:09:17FaethinHow?
01:09:37dfkthttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/LastFMLog
01:10:28FaethinThanks :D
01:11:09dfktjust activate the scrobbling in Rockbox's settings, then upload the log file with any of those scrobblers
01:11:30dfktpaulstead's site seems to be the best, IMO
01:13:10 Quit faemir (Remote closed the connection)
01:15:00FaethinYeah, I'm looking at it. Paulstead seems to be my best option
01:18:12 Quit AndyIL (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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01:20:20 Quit funman ("free(random());")
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01:36:36 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
01:39:30 Quit gevaerts (Nick collision from services.)
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01:51:58 Join MTughan [0] (i=mtughan@synecdoche/developer/mtughan)
01:52:31MTughanI have an iPod 5th gen with Rockbox 3.0 on it. If I were to install Rockbox 3.3 over it, would that mess up any configuration settings, or is there another way to upgrade?
01:52:44ForumJunkieUse the loader, it should be fine.
01:52:55MTughanI'm attempting to use the Rockbox GUI utility on OS X 10.5.
01:52:59MTughanOkay.
01:52:59ForumJunkieI upgraded my firmware from 3.2.x to 3.3 and it's fine.
01:53:21ForumJunkieIf you're really insecure about it, I think you can save your configs in a .cfg file.
01:53:28 Join toffe82 [0] (n=chatzill@ppp-71-130-78-13.dsl.frs2ca.pacbell.net)
01:53:36MTughanI was just wondering if it handled the upgrade cleanly.
01:55:03LloreanThere's really no "upgrade" to be clean about. You're just replacing one with another
01:55:27domonokyMTughan: should be fine, just use the "install rockbox" option in rbutil.
01:55:56MTughanI did, it's rebuilding the database now.
01:56:27MTughanAlthough it's found almost 3x the items that I have in my library, so I don't know what it's indexing.
01:58:45 Quit efyx`aw ("Quitte")
01:59:06MTughanIs there a way to make Rockbox only index one folder for music?
01:59:31ForumJunkieRead the manual, it says in there, something about adding a x/x/exception file, if I remember correctly.
01:59:39MTughanOkay.
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02:00
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02:04:11 Quit Faethin ("Ma respira mia alma alla Rosa Etterna...")
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02:15:31MTughanAh, that's much better... Thanks for the tip.
02:16:00MTughanAlthough your thinking was way off... It's database.ignore :P
02:18:29MTughanWhoa... "Data abort at 0000A60C (0)"
02:20:13MTughanSeems the UI is frozen.
02:21:45LloreanWhich version did you install?
02:21:54LloreanThe 30GB or the 60/80?
02:21:55MTughan3.3 release.
02:21:57MTughan30GB
02:22:57ForumJunkieMenu + Select and see what happens.
02:23:11saratogatheres been some improvements to database stability since 3.3, so using the latest SVN build is probably a better idea
02:23:17MTughanThat'll reboot the iPod, I know.
02:23:36saratogaalthough in your case it sounds like one of the tag parsers has crashed, not the database itself
02:23:37MTughanOkay, I'll grab the SVN trunk then. Latest, or is there a certain revision I should grab?
02:23:43saratogalatest
02:25:00MTughanI was scrolling through songs kinda fast, as I just stuck album art in for all the albums for an artist, was wanting to see if they had worked.
02:25:24rashersaratoga: it's a crying shame we don't have an easier way to track down these errors. It usually doesn't result in a bug report
02:26:09saratogayeah that would be nice
02:26:18saratogathough i don't have a clue how the database works so i can't help you there
02:27:06saratogais it still possible to do the database scan on the PC side? that might be a good way to help people trouble shoot these problems
02:28:26MTughanLooks like it's working fine now, and even a bit faster.
02:30:03MTughanAlso, I like the fade when the music is paused, but is there any way to make it faster? I don't see an option for it.
02:30:17Mikachui think you can just on/off it
02:30:47 Join BHSPitLappy [0] (n=BHSPitLa@unaffiliated/bhspitmonkey)
02:36:06ForumJunkieYou can change it in your Crossfade settings i believe.
02:36:27MTughanOh, so you can... Thanks.
02:36:40evilnick_home2That only affect the transition from track to track, I believe.
02:37:14MTughanI guess we'll find out.
02:37:17evilnick_home2AFAIK the fade on stop/pause isn't configurable (but I'd be happy to be wrong)
02:37:38MTughanNope, no effect.
02:38:45 Join toffe82 [0] (n=chatzill@ppp-71-130-78-13.dsl.frs2ca.pacbell.net)
02:39:07MTughanAlso, upgrading the Rockbox version didn't keep all my settings... Kept the theme, but the repeat mode and anti-skip length were reset to defaults.
02:39:24saratogadid you delete your .rockbox folder or the settings file?
02:39:26Mikachuyeah, you should save a .cfg file before you update, then reload that
02:39:33Mikachuor um, is that super old tips?
02:39:45saratogai don't think you've ever needed to save your settings
02:39:54MTughanNot sure, I just got "<ForumJunkie> Use the loader, it should be fine."
02:39:56Mikachudid you stop using that unused fat block?
02:40:34 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
02:40:57ForumJunkieSorry, =.= I'm still a padawan at this.
02:41:18MTughannp, I hadn't changed much.
02:41:31ForumJunkieAlthough I did suggest saving the file! :D
02:42:35saratogaunless you deleted the config file i'm not sure how you could lose settings
02:43:37Mikachuaha, Date: Tue Jan 23 13:40:44 2007 +0000 Settings are now stored in /.rockbox/config.cfg instead of the hidden sector. (FS #6557)
02:43:41Mikachunm me then :)
02:48:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:00
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03:04:22 Part PaigeWitchyWoman ("You're weird.")
03:28:39 Join Faethin [0] (n=faethin@190.148.217.50)
03:29:43FaethinHow do I go back to Apple's firmware? I already uninstalled the bootloader and Rockbox but when I disconnect my iPod it's still loading Rockbox
03:30:00 Join _lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@188.16.115.247)
03:30:01LloreanThen you didn't uninstall the bootloader *or* Rockbox.
03:30:13LloreanUnless you just haven't shut it down yet.
03:31:07FaethinI used the option on the Rockbox utility that read "Uninstallation"
03:31:36Faethin"Remove the bootloader" and "Uninstall Rockbox from your audio player"
03:31:47FaethinThen I pressed and held SELECT and MENU
03:33:18LloreanDid both of those actually report success?
03:33:26FaethinYep
03:33:48 Quit lilltiger (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:34:15FaethinI'm removing the firmware not because I'm disappointed but rather because my car's sound system doesn't recognise it
03:34:24Faethin(I'd be thrilled if there were a way to fix this)
03:34:25LloreanIf, when you reboot your iPod, Rockbox still loads, then you didn't succeed in the uninstall
03:34:42LloreanIt's odd that neither of them succeeded.
03:34:59LloreanAre you actually rebooting your iPod? Do you see the Apple Logo, and then Rockbox still loads anyway?
03:35:11FaethinYes
03:35:37FaethinThe grey apple on the black background appears and then Rockbox loads
03:35:52LloreanAnd you installed it using RBUtil. Nothing extra or different?
03:35:59FaethinI just uninstalled it again, both the bootloader and the firmware and it succeeded again
03:36:20FaethinNothing extra or different. I used the Ubuntu executable with gksu as the command
03:36:30LloreanAnd you're doing the same now?
03:36:54FaethinIndeed
03:37:22FaethinI just clicked again on "Remove bootloader" and a message appeared on the log "No bootloader detected"
03:37:51FaethinBut I just clicked again on "Uninstall Rockbox" and it succeeded, again, in uninstalling it
03:38:40LloreanIf the bootloader removal succeeds all you need to do after is delete the .rockbox folder
03:38:57FaethinDoing so
03:39:29FaethinI can't seem to find it O_O
03:40:02FaethinYeah, it's not there
03:40:33LloreanIf it's not there, Rockbox cannot be loading.
03:40:53FaethinBelieve me, I'm seeing it right now
03:40:55evilnick_home2Is there a setting for show hidden files/folders in Ubuntu?
03:41:07LloreanFaethin: I meant to suggest it must be there.
03:41:19FaethinWait
03:41:21evilnick_home2As '.rockbox' might be hidden by the OS
03:41:21FaethinWait
03:41:22LloreanThe files are loaded from disk each time Rockbox boots, so it would be physically impossible for Rockbox to boot if they aren't there.
03:41:24FaethinIt's back
03:41:27FaethinDamn O_O
03:41:30FaethinI don't know what I did
03:41:36 Part MTughan ("I love the smell of napalm in the morning!")
03:41:42FaethinI'm seeing the apple firmware right now
03:41:51LloreanIt has dual boot
03:41:57LloreanThis is covered in the manual.
03:41:58FaethinI'm... sorry, I think I wasted your time ¬¬
03:42:30FaethinBut I could swear I had already uninstalled the bootloader
03:42:50*Faethin feels a little ashamed
03:42:53FaethinAnyway
03:43:01FaethinThanks for your time Llorean and evilnick_home2
03:43:44FaethinI'm having this little problem with my car sound system
03:44:38FaethinI plugged in the iPod using apple fw and I could control the iPod from the sound system's "face"
03:44:50*Faethin is not a native English speaker
03:45:15FaethinI don't know the English term. It's the part of the radio where you can tune and adjust the volume
03:46:16FaethinUsing rockbox, the system doesn't recognise it anymore, it treats is as if it were a USB flash drive
03:46:22FaethinAnyway of working this out?
03:46:30evilnick_home2Faethin: Probably the fascia or the head-unit
03:46:43FaethinFascia?
03:46:56FaethinThat sounds Latin, or Italian, for "face" :p
03:47:36LloreanFaethin: You would need to reverse engineer what the original firmware does that Rockbox does not
03:47:53FaethinI see
03:48:08FaethinThat's beyond my abilities :(
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04:32:48CIA-71New commit by 03unhelpful (r21535): Use hand-written constants table on ARMv5+ for JPEG IDCT, and load four 16-bit constants at a time with ldrd. Not useful for ARMv4, since one load per ...
04:33:12MU{lappy}ForumJunkie: you can also use make PREFIX=/mountpoint install
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04:43:38ForumJunkieOverclocking my iPod won't like cause it to burst into flames in my hands, or would it?
04:45:16evilnick_home2No, the worst it would do is drain the battery quicker than normal
04:45:39krazykitnot necessarily. it could overheat and damage some components
04:46:05LloreanIt also simply doesn't make sense. There's really not much that the CPU can't do now, but could do if it were that little bit faster that you could get it to.
04:46:06krazykitif you're only boosting, it isn't overclocking (if that's what you're talking about)
04:47:41ForumJunkieOkay,.
04:48:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:50:36ForumJunkieSo I opened Cygwin and I'm reading the manual but it isn't making sense what I do after.
04:50:37 Join Unhelpful [0] (n=Militant@rockbox/developer/Unhelpful)
04:51:28ForumJunkieNever mind.
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04:55:09ForumJunkieHow come Cygwin can't access the mirror that Rockbox has up?
04:55:27ForumJunkieIt fails whenver the setup tries to download setup.ini
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05:00
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05:03:39ForumJunkieCould someone compile a patch into the Daily Build of RB for me please because Cygwin is not saving this necessary file?
05:03:49 Part cmwslw_ ("Ex-Chat")
05:04:26Lloreanyou really are better off figuring out how to get cygwin working, so you don't have to keep asking every time another major feature comes out
05:04:36LloreanAlso, why the daily?
05:04:59ForumJunkieWhatever works, I have no idea, but cygwin isn't downloading from the rockbox mirror.
05:05:04ForumJunkieIn the manual.
05:05:36ForumJunkieMight be down?
05:05:53LloreanThe archived daily builds really aren't recommended for any purpose unless the current build isn't working and you can't stand to go back to the last release
05:06:19LloreanDid you read the instructions for newer versions of cygwin setup?
05:06:31ForumJunkieYes I need to install it from setup.exe -X?
05:06:40LloreanDid you do that?
05:06:47ForumJunkieNope.
05:06:58LloreanSo you read the instructions, didn't follow them, and then are surprised it didn't work?
05:07:01ForumJunkie=.=
05:07:11ForumJunkieCan I change it's properties without having to CMD it?
05:07:32ForumJunkieNever mind.
05:07:35LloreanThis channel isn't really hear to teach you basic operating system use.
05:10:58ForumJunkieSo I use the source code from the build that I get from Manual Install?
05:11:34LloreanYou're best off using SVN to check out source code.
05:15:49ForumJunkieWhere do I run the command for svn co.. etc.
05:15:49ForumJunkieCMD?
05:16:56LloreanIn cygwin.
05:18:30ForumJunkieSo after it finds the source code, I can continue with the patching etc, in the instructions, right?
05:20:31LloreanOnce you have the source code, it can be patched, yes. If the patch is up to date.
05:20:46 Join Erant [0] (i=erant@plz.stfu.kthnx.org)
05:20:59ForumJunkieThis is totally easy if you just get all the tools in place. @@
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05:27:11ForumJunkiewhat size should my ram be when I'm selecting device (default?)
05:30:47ForumJunkieGot it, thanks
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05:57:57ForumJunkieI've applied the patch
05:58:03ForumJunkieSo what do I do now?
05:58:14ForumJunkieIt's in the source code or whatever, is it done and ready to be used?
05:58:45LloreanYou need to compile.
05:58:49LloreanYou *are* reading the guides still right?
05:59:08ForumJunkieYes.
05:59:23ForumJunkieSo it asked me to compile a raw source, and now it's telling me to use the files and make another .zip?
05:59:29ForumJunkieWith the edited files?
05:59:52LloreanYou need to compile the patched source.
06:00
06:00:06ForumJunkieI applied the patch to the unzipped one, I think.
06:00:14ForumJunkieOr has it already been done in the zipped one?
06:00:22LloreanZipped waht?
06:00:37ForumJunkieI am using .../rockbox/build/
06:00:42ForumJunkieand it has a rockbox.zip in it already
06:01:09LloreanYou get a rockbox.zip if you "make zip" after you "make"
06:01:14LloreanPatching won't change a rockbox.zip from before
06:01:36ForumJunkieSo since I've patched, it's changed the .../rockbox/ and now I have to just make zip again.
06:01:43ForumJunkieAnd that's the version I use on my iPod.
06:01:49LloreanNo
06:01:53LloreanYou need to make and make zip
06:02:02ForumJunkieYeah
06:02:03LloreanThey're two separate steps
06:02:05ForumJunkieI'm making right now
06:02:09ForumJunkieAnd after I make zip, right?
06:02:30LloreanYes, patching does not change how you compile a build
06:02:36LloreanAll it changes is the data used in the compiling.
06:02:47ForumJunkieWell, I followed this tut
06:02:51ForumJunkiehttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SimpleGuideToCompiling#What_You_Will_Need
06:02:53LloreanPlease, use whole words.
06:03:00ForumJunkieSorry.
06:03:25ForumJunkieI followed it step by step.
06:03:54ForumJunkieI WILL notice a difference in how my iPod functions right?
06:04:04LloreanI don't know. I don't know what patch you're using.
06:04:13ForumJunkiegui_boost_v07.patch
06:04:15LloreanAs to the Guide, it has "patching" in a separate section.
06:04:26ForumJunkieYeah.
06:04:31LloreanIt's not telling you to patch after running make
06:04:36LloreanIt's telling you how to compile, and how to patch.
06:04:57ForumJunkieSo initially I just made source code into a .zip and then I applied a patch
06:05:08LloreanApplying the patch had nothing to do with making the zip
06:05:14LloreanAnd you didn't "make source code into a zip"
06:05:17ForumJunkieSo I can remove that?
06:05:20LloreanYou compiled a build, then zipped up the compiled biuld.
06:05:22Lloreanbuild.
06:05:59LloreanMaking a zip makes installation of the modified build much easier.
06:06:08LloreanSince you can just extract it directly onto the player.
06:06:43ForumJunkieHopefully I did it.
06:06:45LloreanThe tutorial assumes you understand what source code is, and what compiling means.
06:07:25ForumJunkieAfter I compile the build, I just extract it to my player and overwrite everything, right?
06:07:36LloreanAfter you compile the build and make a zip of it.
06:07:40LloreanThey're two separate steps
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06:10:42ForumJunkieOkay, thanks for the help, it should be done now.
06:14:26ForumJunkieIs there any physical way to check if my patch worked?
06:14:41ForumJunkieAlthough the games work faster I need physical proof. =.=
06:16:08LloreanUnless the patch changes something user visible, no, not really
06:19:30ForumJunkieIs there any reason why the build name says r21535m-etc.
06:20:26evilnick_home1M means modified
06:20:37evilnick_home1And the r is the revision number
06:20:47ForumJunkieo_O Cool, okay, thanks.
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08:57:00*amiconn thinks that Ubuntuxer should really be here more often
08:57:30amiconnHe caused a red builod and seems to have ignored it... :(
08:59:39LloreanAt the very least one should wait until the build returns to see what happens.
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10:30:06Knightingaleon ipod 4g would i just load the music onto the pod with gtkpod or whatever, or can i choose not to obey the ipod db system?
10:30:42antil33tYou can just drag/drop files into a folder?
10:30:53notlisteningHi is there any talk of recent file system curruption on the e200v2
10:31:06Knightingaleantil33t, will it come up under artists, albums etc?
10:31:37 Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection)
10:31:45Knightingaleif i put it in say /othermusic/album
10:31:55advcomp2019Knightingale, you can use database if you want but there is file/folder too
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10:32:37Knightingaleso it'll automactually scan for the file/folder when i reboot? or do i manual find it
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10:34:16advcomp2019you have to do the database but the file/folder is done right away
10:34:38nls_webbah, an update seems to have hosed my debian install, so i'm stuck with windows :(
10:34:46advcomp2019or should i say, basically right away
10:34:59Knightingalei'll see what happens
10:35:02*nls_web is in the wrong channel too
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10:39:59Knightingalehrrm doesn't let me cd into the album folder :/
10:41:01Knightingaleoh nvm
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10:50:34Knightingalewith some of the albums i put on the /nondb_music/ in the fat32 partition it wont list any of the MP3 files within the album folder.. they all have drwx−−−−−− permissions. any ideas?
10:55:45Knightingaleonly seems to find the .m3u files
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11:02:13LloreanIt's FAT32. Permissions don't exist.
11:02:35LloreanCheck your file view setting, and probably read the manual some.
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11:05:24notlisteningahh worked out the file system corruption issue, someone with idle fingers was pressing the record buttons the other day and that is not working properly i guess ;)
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11:29:10KnightingaleLlorean, yeh was sent to only show playlist by default.. seems odd
11:31:40TorneKnightingale: it's not set to only show playlists by default, but you may have accidentally pressed the quickscreen button
11:33:48KnightingaleTorne, ah. yes i think i may have
11:34:43Torneyeah a lot of people have done that before :)
11:36:11CIA-71New commit by 03learman (r21536): Trivial changes to Mazezam to fix the red on 3G iPods.
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11:43:46*pixelma wonders why bluebrother replied to a Iaudio M3 "installation" problem in the correct Cowon etc. forums with talking about restoring an Ipod...
11:43:53Tornedoes the ata dma patch for pp5020 still need the other patch to change the buffering alignment to be any use?
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11:48:15CIA-71New commit by 03Ubuntuxer (r21537): FS #10099: new lib, which displays formatted text on every target; also supports viewport
11:50:16pixelmaI would really like Ubuntuxer to communicate more... (at all?) :\
11:52:27CIA-71New commit by 03bertrik (r21538): meizu_dfu: ...
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11:58:07CIA-71New commit by 03bertrik (r21539): Add RTC driver for Seiko S35390A (used in the Meizu M3 and possibly other Meizus)
12:00
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12:04:36ReKleSSummm
12:04:45ReKleSSthe H120 only has 6 screws holding down the motherboard, right?
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12:06:04fg56xfdDoes anyone else have problems with
12:06:16fg56xfdDoes anyone else have problems with KDE4 not recognizing their mp3 player?*
12:06:28Tornenot recognising in what way?
12:06:34Torneand what player?
12:07:31fg56xfdTorne: With every other version of Kubuntu ive used I can just plug it in and turn it on and it shows up as an external drive, but now it doesnt. And it's a Toshiba Gigibeat.
12:11:36robin0800fg56xfd, what Linux version?
12:11:47fg56xfdrobin0800: Kubuntu 9.04.
12:12:30notlisteningtry a dmesg and see what the last few lines of output are when plugging it in
12:12:44notlisteningthats typing dmesg in a terminal ;)
12:13:29robin0800fg56xfd, make sure it is an msc device
12:13:53fg56xfdMsc?
12:14:38robin0800fg56xfd, seen as a hard disk no drivers needed
12:14:56fg56xfdThats how i want it to be. Thats how it is in KDE3.
12:15:04notlisteningRob2223, it has been working previously so that should not be the issue
12:15:06fg56xfdHow can i check though?
12:15:23notlisteningdmesg will tell you whats going on ;)
12:15:44robin0800fg56xfd, lsusb
12:15:59notlisteningbut never assume anything
12:16:13fg56xfdrobin0800: Bus 002 Device 018: ID 0930:0009 Toshiba Corp. Gigabeat F/X (HDD audio player)
12:17:02Torneplug it in then open a terminal and type dmesg, and paste the output onto pastebin.com
12:17:12Torneand we'll be able to ee what it's detected as
12:17:36notlisteningTorne, ;)
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12:18:37Tornenotlistening: one of my irssi scripts tries to stop me mentioning pasting without a pastebin url :)#
12:20:16fg56xfdhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/205504/
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12:21:33Torneok that looks broken, yes
12:22:05notlisteninghow have you got the device connected to your computer?
12:22:06Tornei assume it works fine on other distros with the same rockbox versionon the player?
12:22:23fg56xfdnotlistening: The player is on its dock, which is usb.
12:22:42notlisteningthrough a hub and how many other devices you got plugged into usb?
12:22:55fg56xfdTorne: This is the only comp i have, but its worked on every other distribution its been fine.
12:23:02fg56xfdnotlistening: Its not on a hub.
12:23:04notlisteningit could be a power drain issue possible ;)
12:24:05notlisteningmy motherboard usd started to fails and i got error messages like that when i was usng devices that persously worked
12:24:09Tornehm. whatever it is that's trying to connect there is a usb 1.1 device, also
12:24:25Torneyou'd hope the player isnt
12:24:45notlisteninghave you another computer to try it on?
12:24:49fg56xfdI do not.
12:25:02notlisteningshame
12:25:40notlisteningtry disconnecting everything else from usb and then try it
12:26:00notlisteningand if you have nothing on usb then it might be the player
12:26:14Tornepossibly reboot with nothing connected also, since something seems to have gone pretty badly wrong there and i wouldn't trust the usb stack to be in a good state ;0
12:27:15fg56xfdAlright, I'll try that. Just a moment.
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12:34:34robin0800fg56xfd, try "device descriptor read/64, error" in google
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12:43:31fg56xfdLooked at a few of them, tried some, none worked so far.
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12:50:29notlisteningfg56xfd, still the player being the problem?
12:51:10fg56xfdyes
13:00
13:00:19notlisteningseems that it might be a kernel issue
13:03:14fg56xfdWhy does lsusb recognize it, but it wont mount?
13:03:34soapin the future can't you simply rmmod all the usb modules and modprobe them all back in?
13:03:43soap(as opposed to rebooting)
13:04:23fg56xfdMe?
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13:05:11soapwell, since torne suggested the rebooting course of action I guess the question was directed towards him, but if you feel qualified to answer, shoot.
13:06:27bertrikthe uda1380 codec driver was made for the iriver series, but it's also present in the meizus, I'd like to update to make it also work on the meizus
13:07:03bertrikI was thinking of creating a uda 1380 codec access API, very much like we do now for wmcodec and ascodec
13:08:10 Quit fg56xfd (Remote closed the connection)
13:08:15bertrikbasically the only interaction between the uda1380 codec driver and the hardware is a codec write function (over i2c), a codec reset function and possibly a lock/unlock function
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13:16:21ReKleSSis anyone around familiar with reflashing an H120 via the bdm interface?
13:16:36ReKleSSspecifically, the pinout on the board and the commands that need to be sent
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13:43:24switch_mornig @ all :)
13:43:38switch_i have a problem with my pictureflow :'(
13:43:55switch_everything just looks like this: http://www.xup.in/pic,16880377/dump_090628-133645.png
13:44:31switch_i've tried rebuilding the chache but with no improvement...
13:44:45switch_this is since jpeg is supported...
13:45:11 Quit switch_ (Client Quit)
13:45:26pixelmawhat player do you have an which Rockbox version exactly?
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13:46:34pixelmaswitch_: what player do you have an which Rockbox version exactly?
13:46:46switch_latest version
13:46:53switch_ipod 30 gb
13:47:01switch_5g
13:48:54pixelmalatest version isn't exact... can you tell the exact revision number (look it up under System > Rockbox Info)
13:49:13switch_ok
13:49:19switch_w8 a sec :D
13:50:15switch_r21301M-090615
13:50:22Horschtiok
13:50:31Horschtifirst of all: it's rather oldish
13:50:38Horschtisecond: it's a custom build
13:50:47switch_manual build, but that shouldn' make any difference
13:50:51switch_yes
13:51:18Horschtiplease verify using the must current build
13:51:24switch_ok
13:51:33Horschtihttp://build.rockbox.org/
13:51:48switch_i know :)
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14:03:25switch_ok, i made a update.. i'm now rebuilding the chache...
14:04:56switch_while rebuilding it says "Could not read BMP"
14:05:06switch_why is that?
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14:08:20switch_still the same problem :(
14:09:39Horschtihave you deleted the pictureflow cache in .rockbox/plugins/demos ?
14:10:40switch_well no.. but there's an option to rebuilt the cache
14:10:47pixelmaare your bmps standard type or are they compressed or somesuch?
14:10:49switch_but i could try
14:10:58switch_standard
14:11:06switch_they've worked before...
14:16:38switch_Horschti: doesn't work :(
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14:19:57Horschtianything noteworthy about your bmps? resolution etc?
14:22:48switch_nope
14:22:53switch_:(
14:23:04bertrikCan someone with an iriver h1x0 or h3x0 test a patch for me?
14:23:52ReKleSSbertrik: sure
14:24:00ReKleSSh340 here
14:26:07bertrikReKleSS, can you check if audio still works with this patch: http://pastebin.ca/1477360 ? You make have to do a "make dep " before compiling
14:28:38ReKleSSI don't have a toolchain set up
14:31:15bertrikok, then you can't test patches
14:31:26ReKleSSI was expecting you to have a binary
14:34:01Horschtiswitch_, in that case you'd best create a ticket on Flyspray
14:34:22switch_ok
14:34:24switch_thx
14:38:41pixelmaswitch_: could you paste one of your bitmaps somewhere?
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14:44:25ReKleSSbertrik: installing the toolchain now, it should be done in a while
14:44:43switch_yes
14:47:06switch_http://www.xup.in/dl,21323331/cover.bmp/
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14:53:09bertrikmarkun, basically with SPI, there is not really a difference between reading and writing, to read something you always have to write something too
14:53:39bertrikcan you uniquely identify the specific LCD model from the ID you got back?
14:54:27Tornesoap: depends how much you believe that the hardware is reliable, i guess :0
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14:56:11pixelmaswitch_: hmm, can't see something wrong with it (and I admit not having rebuilt the cache in pictureflow recently), so maybe file a bug report (and attach one of those bmps there)
14:56:46kugelswitch_: I assume the bitmaps work in the wps?
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14:58:47switch_sry, was afk
14:58:50switch_yes it does
14:59:51AlexPpixelma: I'm going to change remote_keymap to HAVE_REMOTE_KEYMAP to be more consistent with the other edefs - any objections?
15:00
15:00:08kugelswitch_: weird. I'm reading deleting the cache folder didn't help?
15:00:22switch_no :(
15:00:50kugelI haven't used bmp since jpeg is supported, but it should still work :(
15:01:01switch_yes
15:01:04switch_and i
15:01:19pixelmaAlexP: can't think of any :)
15:01:23switch_don't want to reconvert all my album art
15:01:28AlexPpixelma: cool :)
15:01:52kugelswitch_: isn't your album art on the pc in jpeg?
15:02:02switch_mhm
15:02:03switch_no
15:02:08switch_all my music is on my ipod
15:02:18switch_and so is the album art
15:02:41CIA-71New commit by 03alex (r21540): Change manual remote keymap define to HAVE_REMOTE_KEYMAP to be more consistent with other edefs.
15:02:43switch_but i think i've deleted the jpegs for most albums
15:02:52kugeluh, you have no music on the pc?
15:03:04switch_no
15:03:07kugelhaving the whole collection on the dap only isn't a good idea
15:03:16switch_:D
15:03:19AlexPA recipe for disaster in fact
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15:03:28AlexPDon't complain if you lose it all
15:03:33Horschtii have my collection in 3 places :D
15:03:41switch_don't have enough space on my laptop..
15:03:53AlexPWell, on your head be it
15:04:03Horschtiexternal harddrives ftw :p
15:04:06AlexPA small external drive would seem a good idea, but it is your decision
15:04:12switch_but i might buy an external.. .yes
15:04:52markunbertrik: yes, the ID matched with one of the LCD drivers (don't remember which one)
15:05:25AlexPpixelma: Did you have any luck at getting the remote svg in nicely?
15:05:58pixelmanot perfect yet but looks ok now
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15:06:10mtUpdate on rm : Seems like the rockbox never reaches the metadata parsing part, and crashes way before that. Not 100% sure, so the weekly update e-mail is going to be a bit late (may be this evening), I just want to know exactly where it crashes first.
15:06:16AlexPpixelma: Goodie :)
15:07:39pixelmaI should probabyly commit what I have even though the manual doesn't build completely yet (the last copying step from the subfolder fails but you can already have a look - and none of the button tables are filled out yet (basically not much progress from last weekend)
15:08:17 Quit switch_ ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
15:08:48AlexPI'm about to start on the arduous tables section
15:09:05AlexPBut yes, it'd be good to get stuff in
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15:10:31switch_ok, i have to go :) Thx again for your help!!!!
15:10:35switch_bye
15:10:43ReKleSSbertrik: "make: *** No rule to make target `udacodec.h', needed by `/home/rek/src/rockbox-21539/h340/firmware/drivers/audio/uda1380.o'. Stop."
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15:11:05pixelmaAlexP: and I couldn't make my idea for the "inline" actions work yet. It's basically the following - create a new macro that will combine ActionSomething and ActionRCSomething if it exists - the nicest way would be if you could pass the "Something" then
15:12:03AlexPThat sounds nice
15:12:08AlexPWhat is the issue with it?
15:12:38mcnuttin_hi all, has rockbox been adapted to the dreambox fta receiver???
15:12:43AlexPno
15:12:57AlexPwww.rockbox.org has a list of players it works on
15:13:41pixelmaI can't figure out how to pass the string I want, I see it working in the wikilink macros etc., I'm not sure which step fails though. I am also not sure where to put this new macro - into preamble or maybe the platform or keymap files
15:13:57kugel"it'd be good to get stuff in", good call :/
15:14:02mcnuttin_ok... could it be assuming the workable player's firmware could be installed on the dreambox/
15:14:08mcnuttin_?
15:14:11AlexPno
15:14:15mcnuttin_hehe ok thx
15:14:21 Quit mcuelenaere (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:14:30AlexPRockbox is a complete firmware replacement, it has to be tailored for the hardware
15:14:51mcnuttin_ty AlexP :)
15:14:57AlexPno problem
15:15:20*kugel goes trying to make up some committale customlist patch
15:15:57 Part mcnuttin_ ("well that was enlightening")
15:17:54Horschtiso, didn't someone earlier have an issue with his 30GB Ipod not being recognized in kubuntu?
15:18:22kugelyes
15:18:23bertrikReKleSS, can you try http://pastebin.ca/1477382 ?
15:18:37Horschtithere's a post in the forums about someone with a 80GB Ipod having a very simmilar issue
15:18:38Horschtihttp://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=22055.0
15:18:41ReKleSSok, one sec
15:19:44ReKleSSok, this one built fine
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15:20:37ReKleSSsound is still working
15:22:57kugelReKleSS: do you have a remote?
15:23:00ReKleSSyes
15:23:07ReKleSStwo h100 wired remotes
15:23:25kugelthen you could also give http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10387 a test :>
15:23:44ReKleSSlet me see if I can find the remote first
15:24:23ReKleSSok, found one
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15:25:14kugeltest the affected plugins without that patch first, then with it and note weirdnesses or bugs (there should only be very little changes)
15:29:33ReKleSShmm, I actually have 3 remotes
15:30:13kugelhehe
15:35:13ReKleSSmetronome seems not to work at all on my h340
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15:36:29kugelwith or without the patch?
15:36:32ReKleSSwithout
15:36:39kugelhuh
15:36:43kugelthat's new to me
15:36:47kugelwhat's not working?
15:36:54ReKleSScan't hear anything
15:37:10pixelmais that with bertrik's patch as well?
15:37:11kugelI think you need to press select or play or so
15:37:11ReKleSSsound output should be the same from line out and headphone, right?
15:37:14 Quit stoffel (Remote closed the connection)
15:37:26ReKleSSpixelma: I undid bertrik's patch, this is the build off rockbox.org
15:37:27kugelI don't know
15:38:02ReKleSSnone of my headphones actually fit into the remote socket
15:39:08kugelthe patch is mostly about the controls actually
15:39:21bertrikReKleSS, thanks for testing my patch!
15:39:36ReKleSSargh, the remote still has that damn clicking/scratching soud
15:39:42kugelbertrik: what was this patch about? I saw it added some new codec
15:40:32bertrikit abstract the communication part of the uda1380 codec from the underlying i2c bus
15:41:07kugelas with ascodec?
15:41:11bertrikI want to reuse uda1380 for the meizu, but the meizu uses a different i2c implementation than than irivers
15:41:19bertrikkugel, yes (and wmcodec)
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15:46:07ReKleSSok kugel... most of the plugins don't actually do anything with the remote
15:46:14ReKleSSand the patch is failing on mazezam
15:46:28kugelhow?
15:47:10kugelReKleSS: only a few of the affected plugins actually use remote controls, I'm more after general breakage (i.e. with the main unit too)
15:47:41ReKleSSohh, ok
15:48:10ReKleSShttp://pastebin.com/d7495014f <−− that's the rejected blobs
15:52:16ReKleSSis there a quick way to grab all the plugins and stick them into the correct directories?
15:57:04kugelwhat do you mean?
15:57:33kugelyou can use make install (if you specified the mount point of your target with PREFIX when you run tools/configure)
15:57:35ReKleSSerr, I just found the make zip target
15:57:45ReKleSSah, cool
16:00
16:00:51ReKleSSthe behaviour of jackpot seems to have changed, before it was select on the remote to spin, now it's play
16:01:36 Quit stoffel (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:03:39ReKleSSthe rest seem to be working as before
16:03:44mtShouldn't this echo "REALMEDIA" whenever a rm file is opened, i.e before doing any parsing or decoding ? : http://pastebin.com/d7b9b2e60
16:06:04kugelmt: echo where? are you in a sim or target build? I don't know how logf behaves there
16:06:21kugelalso, you need some extra defines for logf to do anything
16:06:41mtkugel : target build - usb-serial.
16:07:31mcuelenaeremt: you defined #LOGF_ENABLE in that file?
16:07:38mcuelenaereeh #define LOGF_ENABLE :)
16:07:47mtmcuelenaere: No.
16:07:51mtok :)
16:07:57mcuelenaeremt: then that's your problem :)
16:08:02mcuelenaerelook at logf.h
16:08:08mcuelenaere(firmware/export/logf.h)
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16:09:21mtAh I see. :/
16:10:19 Quit Thundercloud (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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16:11:11mcuelenaeremt: logf is quite handy to use, once you know how :)
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16:14:03mtmcuelenaere: Yes, it's definitely useful. I consider myself lucky to have this debugging option. :)
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16:47:34lilltiger_in the SVN, is trunk the latest or are there an dev tree as well?
16:48:05 Nick lilltiger_ is now known as lilltiger (n=lilltige@82.145.152.217)
16:48:06rasherTrunk is where development happens
16:48:26lilltigerok just wanted to make sure :)
16:48:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:55:19CIA-71New commit by 03mcuelenaere (r21541): Lua: ...
16:56:23lilltigeris there any documentation on how to install rockbox on an sansa fuze, dident find it in the wiki
16:57:03 Quit Thundercloud_ (Remote closed the connection)
16:58:09CIA-71New commit by 03mcuelenaere (r21542): Also update the manual
16:59:47rasherlilltiger: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SansaAMS#Bootloader_Installation
17:00
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17:01:32lilltigerohh noo! no DRM support gosh!
17:01:45daurn|anyone know if lua is using LNUm yet?
17:02:15mcuelenaeredaurn|: nope it isn't
17:02:34daurn|mcuelenaere: damn, you going to add it?
17:03:01mcuelenaerenot really interested :)
17:04:52CIA-71New commit by 03mcuelenaere (r21543): Fix typo & red
17:04:59daurn|mcuelenaere: why? :(
17:05:31daurn|mcuelenaere: btw, did you get require/package, io, and math working/enabled?
17:05:35 Join cmwslw [0] (n=cmwslw@c-98-249-113-152.hsd1.tn.comcast.net)
17:05:44mcuelenaeredaurn|: require/package, io: yes
17:05:46mcuelenaeremath: no
17:05:54 Part cmwslw ("Ex-Chat")
17:08:02 Join __lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@188.16.115.247)
17:08:33lilltigerhmm: rockbox/trunk/apps/action.c:26:18: error: lang.h: No such file or directory
17:08:47daurn|mcuelenaere: how bout just enabling floor, ceil, min, max, fmod, huge, modf?
17:09:11rasherlilltiger: Did you run from a clean build directory?
17:09:20lilltigerrasher: yes
17:09:22 Quit ReKleSS ("Leaving")
17:10:26lilltigermake clean seems to have helped
17:10:30lilltigergot another error now
17:12:12lilltigerrasher: the issue appered cos the first build failed cos of missing ams-elf after installing it and runing make again the problem appered, wich an make clean fixed :)
17:12:30lilltiger /usr/bin/arm-elf-ld: this linker was not configured to use sysroots
17:12:38lilltigeris the new linker error :)
17:14:16mcuelenaeredaurn|: floor() & ceil() are useless when there's only fixed point arithmetic; fmod, HUGE_VAL (huge) & modf don't seem to be available on Rockbox
17:14:22rasherlilltiger: Hm, I'd try deleting all the files in the build dir and re-running configure
17:14:38gevaertslilltiger: where does that arm toolchain come from?
17:15:38daurn|mcuelenaere: modf is just interger division AND mod returned in one function
17:16:13lilltigergevaerts: archlinux repo, im trying the rebuild
17:16:28daurn|mcuelenaere: I'm just saying to add them for completeness....
17:16:53lilltigercan it be that im usig 4.3.3 and not 4.0.3?
17:17:08gevaertslilltiger: you're probably better off using a toolchain built by tools/rockboxdev.sh
17:17:21rasherlilltiger: You should use the recommended toolchain. Either run tools/rockboxdev.sh or see http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CrossCompiler#Step_2b_Manual_build
17:17:21mcuelenaeredaurn|: yeah sure, but AFAICS there's no such equivalent in Rockbox (C modf() function)..
17:17:56daurn|mcuelenaere: then just implement it as pushing a/b and a%b ?
17:18:26mcuelenaereLua doesn't have a mod operator?
17:18:30mcuelenaeremodulus*
17:18:41daurn|mcuelenaere: sure it does
17:19:15mcuelenaerethen why add a function that does the same as what is already do-able in pure Lua?
17:19:36daurn|mcuelenaere: It'd be good to have all this, just because of many libraries out there written in lua only - won't need to modify them for rockbox
17:23:11 Quit _lifeless (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:24:30rasherSo when will we have lua-in-core, with hooks into all Rockbox functions?
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17:25:33daurn|rasher: when you code it?
17:25:46gevaertsdaurn|: when he forks it more likely ;)
17:25:47daurn|that would require a lua state to be active at all times
17:25:56daurn|which probably isn't hard
17:26:36daurn|then I'd guess you could just have a event/callback mechanism that calls lua functions when events happen...
17:28:02rasherI'm not entirely sure what the point would be, but being able to write lua scripts to do all sorts of thing might be fun
17:28:14gevaertssorting algorithms!
17:28:42*daurn| would probably write the whole gui with it
17:28:55daurn|cause... why not? :p
17:29:06gevaertsbecause it would be too slow
17:29:21rasherIsn't most ui slowness due to redrawing?
17:29:42*rasher doesn't know how well lua scripts run
17:29:47AlexPpixelma: What are you thoughts on remote button maps given that most plugins just let you quit from the remote and don't show anything on screen
17:30:14Horschtiis there some sort of repo of cool lua scripts that work in rockbox?
17:30:35AlexPnot at the moment
17:30:47mcuelenaeregevaerts: not if you add JIT ;)
17:30:48daurn|rasher: "well"
17:31:02daurn|mcuelenaere: luaJIT is just for x86 :P try llvm
17:31:18mcuelenaeredaurn|: it is portable though
17:31:26daurn|luajit isn't
17:31:29mcuelenaeresomeone just needs to do it
17:31:30*gevaerts would prefer rockgcc and makebox :)
17:31:33*mcuelenaere thought it was
17:31:47daurn|the whole thing is written in mostly x86 assembly
17:31:50daurn|have fun porting
17:32:02daurn|people haven't even been able to port it to x86_64
17:32:47daurn|but what we CAN use is llvm: http://code.google.com/p/llvm-lua/
17:34:04mcuelenaeredaurn|: do you have the LLVM JIT ported to Rockbox then? ;)
17:36:03 Quit DarkDefender ("Leaving")
17:36:52daurn|mcuelenaere: well, not the JIT, but I think some of it could already be used with rockbox?
17:37:05pixelmaAlexP: good question... as on the M3 almost all plugin controls are on the remote only and you can only quit on the main unit. There is one plugin where a three column button table could be useful though which is wormlet on the Recorders (both things are used for the plugin's controls, currently described one after the other, works there though)
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17:38:13mcuelenaeredaurn|: I don't understand, what part? Doesn't LLVM-Lua consist of only a Lua->LLVM IR compiler?
17:38:56daurn|mcuelenaere: it has that, and a JIT thing too (but not for all platforms)
17:39:12AlexPpixelma: I'm trying to avoic changing all the plugin .tex files just to add an extra opted & to every line of every button table just to make the remote column empty and the description go in the thirc column
17:39:13mcuelenaerethe JIT thing is from LLVM, not from LLVM-Lua (IIUC)
17:39:20Jaykayshouldnt FS #10373 be a patch?
17:39:24mcuelenaereso you'd still need to port that
17:39:53MikachuJaykay: it is..?
17:40:11mcuelenaereJaykay: fixed
17:40:15rasherSeems mcuelenaere was faster than me
17:40:21Mikachuah, i looked too late
17:41:02daurn|anyway, thats something for much later :P
17:41:14daurn|as they say, premature optimisation is the root of all evil...
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17:42:04pixelmaAlexP: hmm, yeah. I guess a two column table would do for now as controls from both isn't really implemented yet in most plugins :\
17:42:17AlexPI think so
17:42:47AlexPBut I'm not sure how to achieve that with the current setup
17:43:10pixelmaI realised that, hence the :\
17:43:23AlexPTime to have a think
17:43:33AlexPI've done the rest of the H100 manual
17:43:42AlexP*just* plugins to go
17:43:43Jaykaybtw to who helped with the samsung players, well done :) (i think especially pyro_maniac)
17:44:32daurn|mcuelenaere: oh well, do you think that the lua plugin is useable yet?
17:44:42mcuelenaeredaurn|: sure it is
17:45:46pixelmaAlexP: btw. I noticed that with the current feature.txt we can't just use the "remote" feature because this is actually used for enabling/disabling the lcd remote options (backlight etc.) - on the M3 the remote is treated as main screen in this regard though and doesn't use the "remote" feature
17:46:00daurn|mcuelenaere: any ideas of what to write with it?
17:46:15mcuelenaeredaurn|: if you really want to have the math library, see FS #10389
17:46:24AlexPpixelma: yeah, that's why I used HAVE_REMOTE_KEYMAP added to platform
17:46:26mcuelenaeredaurn|: that's up to you, not me ;)
17:46:35AlexPpixelma: I also added IRIVER_RC_H100_PAD
17:47:55pixelmahmm
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17:49:10pixelmaI thought that would just go into the IRIVER_H100_PAD opt, so in use \opt{IRIVER_H100_PAD}{\ButtonSomething & \ButtonRCSomething}
17:49:45pixelmamaybe yours is cleaner though
17:50:24daurn|mcuelenaere: bah, why did you talk to me in the other chan then? :p
17:50:31AlexPpixelma: I did it this way so as to not have to split everything up
17:50:41AlexPpixelma: But I don't mind which way :)
17:50:43mcuelenaeredaurn|: because that was off-topic :)
17:50:57gevaertsdaurn|: now that question did belong there ;)
17:51:35CIA-71New commit by 03mcuelenaere (r21544): Lua: remove BUTTON_TOUCHSCREEN as this constant is available in buttons.lua
17:51:59pixelmaAlexP: it would enable people to compile e.g. H300 manuals with H100 remote control keymaps in case they have this combination... what do you mean with splitting everything up?
17:52:18AlexPpixelma: yes, that too
17:52:52AlexPpixelma: As regards splitting up, just that there is currently \opt{h100pad, h300pad, iaudio_pad} etc
17:53:01pixelmaah
17:53:07AlexPpixelma: But flexibility is a better argument :)
17:53:24pixelmaok, think your solution is better
17:54:53daurn|mcuelenaere: care to wrap said playback functions?
17:55:32 Quit lilltiger (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:56:27mcuelenaeredaurn|: it isn't hard to do yourself, just edit apps/plugins/lua/rocklib.c and wrap the functions you want (see apps/plugin.h for a list of them); most don't need any complicated arguments it seems..
17:58:55daurn|mcuelenaere: don't spose theres any sort of binding generator you've been thinking about? :P
17:59:03CIA-71New commit by 03alex (r21545): Add manual H100 remote keymap file.
17:59:21mcuelenaeredaurn|: there's SWIG, but it's much easier to just do it yourself
17:59:28pixelmaAlexP: so... for the Iaudios that would only be IAUDIO_RC_PAD as that's unified now
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18:00:12AlexPYes, that makes sense
18:00:34pixelmaand I should also prepare the H100 remote SVG
18:00:50daurn|mcuelenaere: of course :P
18:00:56AlexPI'm desperately trying to think of a solution for the plugins, I want to commit the rest of it :)
18:00:58pixelmaAlexP: and commit the inclusion part
18:02:42AlexPI might just bite the bullet and put in an opted & for all the plugins - that way it is prepared for the future if anyone wants to extend plugins to have remote keymaps
18:03:28pixelmaunfortunately I'm a bit occupied with RL things atm...
18:03:50pixelmashould be easier next weekend
18:03:57AlexPno worries :)
18:05:41daurn|mcuelenaere: is there any reason for math.deg? :P
18:05:56mcuelenaeredaurn|: what do you mean?
18:06:35daurn|mcuelenaere: in your patch you allow math.deg: theres no reason to keep it? - should remove all or none of the trig functions (in our case, obviously all)
18:07:39daurn|mcuelenaere: also, the math_random function will not work
18:08:06mcuelenaeredaurn|: you said the math library should be around for compatibility with other libs, so I included math.deg..
18:08:14mcuelenaereand why will the math_random function not work?
18:08:55daurn|mcuelenaere: yet you exclude sin, cos, tan, hyberbolics, log, etc.... might as well get rid of deg too
18:09:10daurn|mcuelenaere: it will always return 0?
18:09:36mcuelenaeredaurn|: that's because there's no Rockbox equivalent available (it should get included once there is)
18:09:50mcuelenaeredaurn|: you mean math_randomseed()?
18:09:52daurn|"+ lua_Number r = (lua_Number)(rb->rand()%RAND_MAX) / (lua_Number)RAND_MAX;"
18:10:39Mikachuthat %RAND_MAX looks very odd
18:10:43mcuelenaereahh, I didn't actually read the code :)
18:10:52mcuelenaereif you remove the / RAND_MAX part it should work
18:11:05daurn|==> the way the function works, it generates a number beteween 0 and 1... with ints it will return 0
18:11:23mcuelenaereyes well, in Rockbox it will generate a value between 0 and RAND_MAX
18:11:39daurn|mcuelenaere: but math.rand returns (to lua) a number between 0 and 1, (not inclusive) ==> will always be 0 anyway
18:12:36daurn|mcuelenaere: you'll need to actually modify the cases 1 and 2
18:13:45lilltigeri have now built the fullzip, and the mkasmboot, but the next step says that i should use an bootloader as second argument to mkasmboot, but i dont have any bootloader built
18:14:07Mikachudownload or build a bootloader then?
18:14:22mcuelenaeredaurn|: I updated the patch
18:14:57lilltigerMikachu: cih config script to use for the bootloader folder, just make dident work
18:16:07daurn|mcuelenaere: might as make case 0 just return 0 :P
18:16:08lilltigerdoh
18:16:18lilltigerfigured it out hehe
18:16:27daurn|mcuelenaere: infact, its currently misbehaving, and should be removed/renamed
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18:16:45mcuelenaeredaurn|: why? True, it isn't according to the Lua spec but it *is* random
18:17:20Blue_DudeDoes anyone have any objections to moving all the fixed point math routines to a separate file? They're all over the place.
18:17:22daurn|mcuelenaere: should keep to lua spec. - call it something else...
18:17:50mcuelenaeredaurn|: then it shouldn't be included until FP is available..
18:18:00mcuelenaereBlue_Dude: I'm all for it!
18:18:12mcuelenaereBlue_Dude: you've seen apps/plugins/lib/fixedpoint.{c,h} ?
18:19:00Blue_DudeNo. But I've seen FP functions in DSP.h eq.c replaygain.c and probably some more I haven't noticed yet.
18:19:43lilltigerso should i format my fuze before installing Rockbox?
18:19:52Blue_DudeAnd I need to use some of them but don't want to reinvent the wheel every time.
18:20:21daurn|mcuelenaere: thats what I want :P => though random could be useful; make a different function math.randomint or something
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18:21:07mcuelenaeredaurn|: I rather think it should be part of rb. then
18:21:14mcuelenaererb.rand & rb.srand
18:21:27daurn|mcuelenaere: I can accept that :)
18:21:48lee321987gevaerts: Did you happen to make an erase tool for the e260/e270/e280?
18:22:33gevaertslee321987: no. The e200 has the format.fmt thing, so it's never been needed
18:23:47Blue_Dudemcuelenaere: Good start for a library in plugins/lib. I'd like to use some of that to create a master library though. If I moved fixedpoint.*, would it really hose plugin developers?
18:25:05mcuelenaereBlue_Dude: I think some plugins depend on it, don't know which though
18:25:24mcuelenaereyou could edit SOURCES to include ../../fixedpoint.* though..
18:25:25 Nick hd is now known as HellDragon (i=jd@Wikipedia/HellDragon)
18:26:10rasherHuh. When loading a theme, it appears that settings.wps_file isn't updated with the wps that the theme selects?
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18:27:36lilltigerhmm does Rockbox lower the avaible battery time, in the info for my fuze it just says 4h 22min
18:27:43lilltigerwhen bat is at 94
18:27:46lilltiger%
18:28:21 Quit lee321987 ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060215]")
18:28:35bertrikI think nobody looked at the operating current estimates for the ams sansa series yet
18:28:51Blue_Dudemcuelenaere: A global search reveals hits in 9 plugins. I had in mind putting ALL the FP math in one place. Plugins/lib is a little deep for apps. Where would be a good spot? Firmware/common?
18:28:53bertrikso estimated runtime is way off
18:29:11mcuelenaereBlue_Dude: I don't think firmware is a good place, it should be in apps
18:29:37mcuelenaerehmm there isn't any good apps/lib/ equivalent place
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18:30:07mcuelenaereBlue_Dude: I think apps/ is good enough :)
18:30:19Blue_Dudemcuelenaere: My first impulse was apps/fpmath.* . I might just stick with that.
18:30:38lee321987This is a quote from the SansaE200unbrick page, "create a file named sansa.fmt on the device. ('touch sansa.fmt')." −−- What does "touch sansa.fmt" mean?
18:30:57mcuelenaeresounds good, although fp is ambiguous, could be fixed & floating point ;)
18:31:03daurn|lee321987: touch is a command that updates the atime of the given file
18:31:06rasherlee321987: the touch command creates an empty file
18:31:15daurn|lee321987: in the case it doesn't exist, the file is created
18:31:29lilltigerbertrik: ahh ok :)
18:31:49markunbertrik: one thing about the meizus: they have changed components a few times, so we will probably have to do some runtime detection.
18:32:03Blue_Dudemcuelenaere: Well with any luck the dev would read the header file notes and figure it out. :)
18:32:13bertrikmarkun, I was afraid of that ...
18:32:43bertrikIt could be that the mystery EEPROM device contains the hardware configuration
18:33:00markunbertrik: the newer M3's supposedly use a wolfson codec for example
18:33:15bertrikI already saw some code where a decision was made to either send a wmcodec or an uda1380 codec command
18:33:30markunor maybe we can have a small test-utility which displays the hardware configuration and then have different rockbox builds for each?
18:33:50lilltigerThe database building on the fuze has an "error" it says "PLAY" to build database, but pressing play wont build it, the button one should press is the middle button
18:33:57lilltiger:)
18:34:32markunlilltiger: sounds like something that needs to be fixed :)
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18:34:36bertriklilltiger, it's a known issue, see FS #10290
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18:34:41lilltigerahh ;D
18:34:57lilltigermarkun: yhee it's major :p
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18:35:48bertrikmarkun, yes, sometime like that sounds like a good idea to start with
18:35:48markunbertrik: did you find code which reads this EEPROM? Is it the one with the address 0xA?
18:36:05lilltigeraww the folders in the database view wont show the folder.jpg tumbs :p
18:36:05rashermarkun, lilltiger: FS #10290 fixes this
18:36:06bertrikI think it reads from address 0x22
18:36:08markunI hope the build table will not end up with 20 meizu targets
18:36:28lilltigerrasher: hmm but i just installed trunk
18:36:30bertrikideally, we should detect it runtime eventually
18:36:56bertrikmeh, supporting two codecs will be tricky I think
18:37:09rasherlilltiger: I'm just saying it'll get fixed eventually
18:37:18lilltiger:)
18:37:42markunbertrik: it would probably mean we have to rename the functions of the codecs to something unique and then use function pointers.
18:37:50bertrikI looked at the meizu OF and the nand interface doesn't look _that_ complicated
18:38:29bertrikmarkun, with a kind of codec "multiplexer" on top ...
18:38:46lilltigerhmm does the standard settings of Rockbox alter the sound in some way?
18:40:05rasherlilltiger: Nope
18:41:28lilltigerrasher: strange, cos Im sure the sound profile isent the stock Fuze one, the bass is sounds better
18:42:04lilltigerbah and that was horrible english :p
18:42:25soapdon't worry - placebo effect is very real for all people. You're not weak.
18:43:26lilltigersoap: it's realy wierd ;)
18:44:06Torneyou mean compared to the OF? if so then how can you be sure that the OF's standard settings don't alter the sound? :)
18:44:09rasherMaybe the fuze alters the sound..
18:44:13lilltigerhmm when pausing just after the fade there is an sound click, same when resuming
18:45:24lilltigeralso when turning on and off the player it makes strange sounds
18:46:07rasherProbably known to the devs. It's not released yet after all
18:46:19lilltigertrue
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18:50:29lilltigeroutch there is an ambient background noise in rockbox when not playing anything :(
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18:53:05lilltigeris that noise there on all players, hmm guess most people dosent hear good enought to notice it
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18:54:21rasherUgh, set_file(const char* filename, char* setting, int maxlen) modifies the filename argument :|
18:54:24rasherNot nice
18:56:05JdGordonrasher: wasnt it decided not to bother with saving the theme .cfg name because if you change anything its technically not that theme anymroe?
18:56:32rasherWell, some people said that. And I didn't do it because it was more work than the other settings :)
18:57:04lilltigerbut i have to say that he Album Artis sorting is awsome the one whom suggested that idea must be a genius! ;D
18:57:05rasherI think that the "technically not that theme anymore" is not terribly important, really
18:57:28rasherI'll post to the dev list before committing
18:58:01JdGordonarg, its a bit annoying because either way its now inconsistant
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18:59:53rasherJdGordon: Well right now it says "Browse Theme Files", which hints that it's just a file browser (and won't center on anything)
19:00
19:02:59rasherCan anyone tell me why the *fptr = 0; fptr++; is necessary in save_file (apps/settings.c)? Wouldn't fptr++ do?
19:04:11JdGordonline?
19:04:22Tornerasher: it's splitting the path
19:04:25rasherIt modifies filename to have a 0 to split the file and dir part, but filename is only used to check if it starts with ROCKBOX_DIR, which is going to be true anyway, regardless what the last bit is?
19:04:38rasherJdGordon: bottom of the file
19:04:39Torneoh, hm
19:05:03rasherSince it uses strncasecmp with strlen(ROCKBOX_DIR) as the length
19:05:48rasherIt surprised me a great deal that calling set_file(filename, ...) modified the filename argument
19:05:52JdGordonyeah, doesnt look cesecary to me
19:06:02JdGordonnessecary even
19:06:20rasherJdGordon: It's your code!
19:06:31rasherAt least, svn blame gives your name.
19:06:46JdGordonso? :)
19:07:39rasherAh no, you just rearranged the file
19:08:13TorneC in const-correctness-doesn't-work shocker
19:08:27Tornestrrchr helpfully takes a const char * and returns a char * that points inside it. THANKS ANSI
19:08:30Torne)
19:10:00rasherLet's see if things blow up if I remove the *fptr = 0;
19:10:31rasherUh.. how did I manage to turn on hold in the sim?!
19:11:23JdGordonpress h
19:19:42lilltigerC has some nice sides, but in type safty and const corectness it's alot worse then C++
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19:29:02lilltigerexcept for the ambient noise and the of/on noises Rockbox seems awsome, looks great, althought the album/file browser should show the folder.jpg icon for folders if avaible :p
19:29:30rasherlilltiger: There's pictureflow! (though it doesn't *do* much)
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19:30:53lilltigerrasher: i ment for the regular navigator :) just to make it look neater :) althought i guess most people dosent have folder.jpg for all thire albums :)
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19:31:13bertriklilltiger, the codec (that also contains the headphone amplifier) allows a couple of different settings for amplifier bias current. Maybe this makes it sound better with certain types of headphones
19:31:19gevaertslilltiger: I think it would look worse
19:31:35rasherlilltiger: It would be rather slow, and the pictures would be tiny. I don't think it'd be a good idea on any level
19:31:41bertrikthere are a lot of targets with a display smaller than the fuze
19:32:06bertrik's display
19:32:31lilltigerbertrik: possible, im using S-Jays wich are quite good id say, but the rugular Fuze firmware is a bit weak on bas output wich seems to be better in Rockbox
19:33:34lilltigerrasher: hmm isent the icon size 12x12?
19:33:45lilltigerbertrik: ys ofcourse it should be optional
19:34:05gevaertswell, feel free to convince us with a patch :)
19:34:16lilltigersame got larger displays then the fuze as well :)
19:36:07aaron424the new fuze v2 firmware does that, but its slow and the pics are tiny.
19:36:32aaron424its not much of an enhancement if you ask me
19:36:47lilltigerok the v1 firware dont do it i think, hmm havent checked actusally :)
19:38:31lilltigerthe pictureflow is pretty neat nice eyecandy :)
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19:43:09CIA-71New commit by 03bertrik (r21546): Create an udacodec interface (similar to ascodec and wmcoded) and adapt/implement it for the iriver h1xx/h3xx and the meizus.
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19:45:30aaron424lilltiger-the pictureflow in rockbox, right?
19:45:47aaron424I have a fuze v2 with out rockbox
19:46:01aaron424:- )
19:46:11aaron424:-(
19:47:03lilltigeraaron424: mmm, just installed rockbox on my v1
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19:52:56lilltigeraaron424: what kinda head/ear-phones do you use?
19:53:24scorche|shlilltiger: that is the sort of thing that should take place in the other channel...
19:53:39lilltigerother?
19:53:44rasherSee the topic
19:53:46lilltigerahh
19:53:51aaron424the rockbox-community
19:54:19aaron424but I use the JVC Gummies
19:55:06aaron424hopefully rockbox will be working on the v2 soonj
19:55:15aaron424*soon
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20:02:08CIA-71New commit by 03alex (r21547): Add remote keymapping to the manual for the iriver H100. Plugins have not yet been done and currently just have a blank column. Most plugins only ...
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20:04:34LightHammerhello, a question. Can I only recharge the ipod on usb without the rockbox usb mode?
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20:04:46_fmlHow can I find out the number of ticks since the system power up?
20:06:26_fmlIs it what current_tick is?
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20:08:52JdGordonyes
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20:09:26JdGordonexcept it probably will overflow so its not perfect if you really want to know how mnay ticks have happened
20:09:51rasherAlexP: nice job
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20:29:20AlexPrasher: Cheers - it is a little bit of a slog :)
20:29:35AlexPI'll tackle h300 when I've recovered (not today) :)
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20:48:02Jaykaycan someone help me with the rockbox vm? it hangs in virtualbox after booting the kernel with the message "loading, please wait..."
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20:51:41CIA-71New commit by 03mcuelenaere (r21548): Add an utility to easily find the assembled instructions at a specific memory location in a Rockbox binary
20:51:49bertrikhow does nand storage generally work in current rockbox targets?
20:52:03bertrikI mean what layers are there, and are they implemented in software or in hardware?
20:52:36bertrikis there full wear leveling or just basic error detection / correction?
20:58:46gevaertsThe only flash devices that currently work well in rockbox are the ipod nano which uses some ATA bridge, and the sansas, which use SD
20:59:13gevaertsso wear leveling is in hardware (or at least somewhere that we don't control)
21:00
21:00:20bertrikok
21:01:57gevaertsThen there are the tcc targets, where shotofadds has done a lot of work to RE the wear leveling from the OF. It mostly works read-only, but as far as I remember he doesn't trust it enough yet to write to it
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21:09:16bertrikman, this is a lot of work, at least none of the existing nand drivers seem to do remapping for wear-levelling
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21:13:49pixelmaAlexP: the H100 remote mappings are "only" mentioned in the button tables currently, right? Good work on the "only" though... :)
21:14:08AlexPpixelma: Yes, I didn't touch anything in the text
21:14:41pixelmaalright, still nice work :)
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21:18:12gevaertsUbuntuxer: are you aware of the http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgi page?
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21:33:32Torneis it normal for the ipod to boot to the rom's "very low battery, please wait" screen after you fully discharge it doing a battery bench?
21:38:34Ubuntuxer@gevaerts oh, it seems to have problems, didn't know it
21:38:45AlexPTorne: Is it normal to say very low battery when you have discharged the battery?
21:38:48rasherTorne: I'd expect so, since that runs before Rockbox
21:39:02TorneAlexP: i've never discharged it that low before
21:39:07AlexPTorne: I'd say that is exactly when I'd expect it to appear :)
21:39:12gevaertsUbuntuxer: it's always useful to check there after you've committed something
21:39:22AlexPA low battery message for a low battery sounds about right to me :)
21:39:26Tornei'm just wondering because i have a hacky patch from dreamlayers for the power on reset issue
21:39:32Torneand it might change the behaviour wrt this
21:39:34Ubuntuxerok, thanks for the info
21:40:04gevaertsUbuntuxer: it's also useful to be online around commits, in case people want to shout at you :)
21:40:16pixelmaUbuntuxer: it would also be nice if you could hang out here a bit more often - or at least communicate about your plans/changes somehow somewhere
21:40:17Torneit only sat there for a minute or so then carried on booting so i guess it's probably behaving sensibly
21:40:47Ubuntuxerok, I will try
21:41:02Torne21 hours playing aac is kidna impressive i have to say
21:41:15Torneapple only advertise 20 hours life :)
21:41:57rasherTorne: And that's with a brand new battery
21:42:04Torneindeed
21:42:50Tornerelated: what use case is CURRENT_NORMAL supposed to represent?
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21:43:45Tornerockbox was estimatig 17 hours life
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21:49:22*JdGordon agrees with everything Llorean just said up to the last paragraph...
21:50:45CIA-71New commit by 03rasher (r21549): Remove svn:mime-type from this file.
21:50:49LloreanThe last paragraph is more "what I think would be necessary if we're going to treat it like a setting"
21:51:01LloreanI don't think it should be treated like a setting, but if "theme" is going to be a single setting, all its subsettings should vanish
21:51:56LloreanThe fact that he feels it needs renaming from "Browse Themes" or "Browse theme files" or whatever it is currently to "Themes" suggests that the name currently makes it pretty clear it's *not* a setting anyway
21:52:02*rasher thinks that's just silly
21:52:19Lloreanrasher: How many settings do we have that arbitrarily change other settings you may have made?
21:52:26pixelmanow that's constructive... ;)
21:52:41LloreanIf you turn on Replaygain, it doesn't turn off Crossfade, disable the Equalizer, and remove "Fade on Pause"
21:52:41rasherLlorean: A theme is *expected* to change a number of settings
21:52:51rasherThat's what themes are. Everywhere.
21:53:07LloreanA theme is expected to be a file or group of files that's loaded to.
21:53:19rasherHuh? That doesn't even make sense
21:53:25LloreanYou often have to browse and locate themes, or put them in a specific folder.
21:53:33Llorean*too, not to
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21:54:01rasherI still don't see what on earth you're trying to say
21:54:15LloreanPeople already know they're files, and know how to treat them as files.
21:54:23LloreanWhat's the benefit in trying to cover that up and *add* uncertainty to the mix?
21:54:45LloreanRight now, people are used to browse lists starting at the top. "Browse Plugins" for example
21:54:52bertrikgevaerts, it seems the meizu uses three software layers, "BUF", "VFL" and "FTL"
21:54:53rasherShowing the current theme rather than just a list. And the uncertainty is never going to be important
21:55:11LloreanHow can you call it the "current theme" if anything's changed?
21:55:22rasherI explained this..
21:55:24LloreanYou're basically arbitrarily declaring "last loaded" as current independently of what's changed about it since then.
21:55:29LloreanYeah, you've decided "it's accurate enough"
21:55:34rasherWhich it is.
21:55:37LloreanAnd you're ignoring the fact that the *current* method is also accurate enough
21:55:42bertrikgevaerts, the interface towards the hardware is a struct of a handful basic nand functions, like init, reset, detect, read, write, erase
21:55:45LloreanSince people already understand the method just fine
21:55:55LloreanRight now, there's no inaccuracy. It works like any other *browser*
21:56:05LloreanYou're intentionally introducing inaccuracy to make it look like something it's not.
21:56:12rasher"Why does it not select the current theme?"
21:56:26LloreanAnd the only reason you've given is "I think it looks better as a setting"
21:56:36rasherWhatever.
21:56:45Lloreanrasher: "Why does it select cabbieV2 when I'm using dancepuffduo.wps?"
21:56:59LloreanHas anyone actually *asked* "Why does it not select the current theme?"
21:57:03rasherYes.
21:57:11LloreanAnd did you tell them "It's a file browser?"
21:57:17LloreanWere they confused after that point?
21:58:05rasherI've already said what I have to say. I knew there'd be objections from the anal "AAAAAAAAAA not 100% accurate" crowd
21:58:15bertrikgoogling for BUF, VFL, FTL turns up a iphone page among others
21:58:18Lloreanrasher: And you've still only defended it with "I think it looks better."
21:58:27LloreanWhat do we *gain* from adding something that can be 0% accurate at times?
21:58:28rasherLlorean: No.
21:58:42Lloreanrasher: Oh, yes, "consistency" with things that are entirely different.
21:59:46Lloreanrasher: What, _exactly_ do we gain that's worth having a screen that occasionally outright lies to users about what theme's in use?
21:59:49gevaertsbertrik: one of the iphonelinux people talked about the similarity here a while ago
22:00
22:00:08Lloreanrasher: Because all we *lose* right now is being able to pretend it's a setting, and having to be honest about the fact that it's a file browser.
22:01:17Mikachuwhat you can do is track all the settings a theme can change (ie the ones written by 'save theme'), and display "<custom changes>" in the list then
22:01:26Mikachuthen = if they changed
22:02:33LloreanMikachu: See, that'd help tremendously. On the ML I said something similar on the idea that it'd need to let people know when they're not actually specifically using one of those files any more.
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22:03:38pixelmain your theme you don't have to use all theme settings that could be written, so it would actually have to compare this theme's cfg with the current config.cfg
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22:04:53*domonoky thinks this is all too complicated. we should either just show/select the last loaded theme file, or just dont do this..
22:05:01Lloreanpixelma: On the theme site at least, we should require themes to set all values. Not setting one can cause very strange effects.
22:05:46Lloreandomonoky: I think themes should be treated just like any other .cfg file.
22:06:02LloreanWhich is "Manage Settings" and loading equalizers - if it changes multiple settings it should be clear it's a cfg
22:07:08gevaertsbertrik: http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20081106 has some info (look for planetbeing). Their git repository could be useful
22:09:54domonokyLlorean: all those Filebrowser could remember/select the last loaded file. :-)
22:11:30Lloreandomonoky: Which I think will create a lot of confusion.
22:11:33bertrikgevaerts, thanks, I'm seeing claims by denes that raw reads work on the meizu, but there's no code for it in svn, and denes has not been here > 3 months
22:11:51LloreanI think if we show someone the last value in a list, treating it like settings, it should always be because "selecting" that last value won't change anything
22:12:16LloreanYou don't go into the "Bass" setting and see +6 when it's *actually* -2
22:12:29LloreanYou shouldn't go into "Themes" and see "CabbieV2" when what's loaded, for whatever reason, is DancePuffDuo
22:12:39LloreanMaking it clear it's a file browser helps that.
22:12:55LloreanAlways starting at the top like normal file browser does too
22:13:14domonokyLlorean: we dont treat them as settings, it just improves the settings browsers. if you change a setting, and reload the last theme, you back to defaults of this theme.
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22:13:58Lloreandomonoky: Yes, that's the problem.
22:14:20LloreanIf it shows "CabbieV2" as the "current value", but you've changed several settings, re-selecting the currently selected one will change things
22:14:22LloreanThat's bad, I think
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22:14:45domonokyit similar to other theme settings in other programs. you choose a theme, fine tune it, and if you dont like it, reload the theme.
22:14:59LloreanYou can still do that
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22:15:22Torneother programs tend to make it obvious that you *have* modified some of the things the theme will reset, though
22:15:29LloreanTorne: Exactly
22:15:42Tornewindows does, which is likely to be one relevant exampple for lots of users ;)
22:15:46LloreanAs I've said, I'd be perfectly happy if there was a <Custom> entry that is what's highlighted if you've changed things, and then enter the list
22:16:15LloreanBut Rasher's patch aims to hid the fact that it's a file browser, going as far as renaming it "Themes" and getting rid of the "Browse"
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22:16:32LloreanI really don't think we should *pretend* it's a setting, when it really doesn't work like a normal setting (since it changes several of them at once)
22:16:37domonokywe can not easily mark it as modified, as we just tread all .cfg as settings, independed of area. so we dont "know" what are eq- settings or theme settings.
22:17:13Lloreandomonoky: We do know what are theme settings, because we have a "save theme .cfg" option, don't we?
22:17:20*domonoky would be fine with a "Browse Theme" entry which pre-selects the last file. :-)
22:17:34LloreanRather than trying to compare with the last theme.cfg loaded, if any "theme" setting is ever changed, mark it as "dirty" even if it's changed back after.
22:18:05Lloreandomonoky: What is *gained* by selecting the last file for the user?
22:18:24domonokyah, looks like we know what are theme and sound settings, so tracking changes could be done :-)
22:18:54LloreanSo far all I've been told is gained is "it's more like a setting" which is, I think, a negative thing not a positive thing
22:19:22Torneif it is actually reasonable for the code to keep track of that i'd say do it personally. i mean i don't care for myself, but i think either of the other options is going to produce just as many question from users :)
22:19:39domonokyLlorean: knowing which one was last.. if you have many themes, you might not know what the current theme is named.
22:19:59LloreanTorne: I've never seen someone ask "Why doesn't it show me my last selected screen." I believe Rasher when he says he has, but the fact that I can't remember having ever seen it says something very significant about the rarity of such a query.
22:20:22Tornewell, yah. it's not like i've been around to know what users really ask
22:20:40Mikachuyou can show <Custom - based on "cabbiev2">
22:20:43Tornebut i can see the possible 'surprise factor' in the way it works now and also in just remembering the last selected
22:20:49Lloreandomonoky: I think "helping users with poor memory" is not a good reason to potentially lie to users about what's actually loaded.
22:21:17Mikachuhow often do you change the theme in the first place? i made one 5 years ago and didn't change it since then :P
22:21:27LloreanTorne: I've spent about 3 years reading every bug report, post to the mailing list, and forum post for this project. It's not a common problem, at all, with the current system.
22:21:48LloreanMikachu: Some people change them several times per day. Then again, I think if you just changed it a few hours ago, you should be able to remember what you selected.
22:21:54LloreanSome people even want random theme changes over time
22:22:06Mikachuif they want to change, what does it matter which they were using? :)
22:22:19mcuelenaerebertrik: planetbeing reversed much of the Whimory FTL AFAIK
22:22:38Mikachucouldn't we just leave everything as it is, but add a new entry at the same level as browse theme: reload last theme
22:22:57mcuelenaerebertrik: http://github.com/planetbeing/iphonelinux/blob/ecdb6ee84e4888cb87f2ffe8d2828bf421bc8145/openiboot/ftl.c
22:23:11LloreanMikachu: We could do that too.
22:23:21bertrikmcuelenaere, yes I was reading that :)
22:23:24domonokyLlorean: do you really think it will hurt so much, if it doesnt pre-select the correct entry if you changed things ?
22:23:52Lloreandomonoky: I think we will get bug reports if it highlights "CabbieV2" in that screen and the users' theme looks completely different.
22:24:42LloreanI just don't see it as "beneficial" to mislead users about what is actually happening.
22:25:01domonokyLlorean: but then he will have changed the settings himself. 90% of time it should be correct.
22:25:10LloreanIt's clear that it's *possible* to actually make sure users know what's going on, so now the only reason not to is whoever wants to highlight things in that screen doesn't want to go the whole way and make it clear.
22:25:45domonokyand if he changed some settings, there will be no fitting theme file anyway to pre-select. so choosing the old one, isnt too wrong.
22:25:59Llorean"Isn't too wrong" is still "wrong"
22:26:15LloreanYou still haven't answered "what is gained"
22:26:20LloreanBeyond "people who have poor memory might like it"
22:26:21domonokycomfort
22:26:34LloreanYou find the current system difficult?
22:26:48LloreanAs I said, in 3 years, I haven't seen a single complaint that I can remember about it not highlighting the last selected theme.
22:26:50domonokyno, but it will be even better with the change :-)
22:26:55LloreanIt really sounds to me like a solution looking for a problem.
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22:27:06Mikachudomonoky: you mean if you want to try out a couple themes, it's easier to scroll down just one entry each time?
22:27:07LloreanA case of "I understand how it works, so I can't believe it would confuse users."
22:27:15domonokywe dont care about users, we only care about what the devs want *hehe*
22:27:41LloreanWell, some devs also want it the other way. This is a case where JdGordon and I actually agree on something. That should say something right there. :-P
22:27:43domonokyMikachu: yes, thats one of the benefits.
22:27:57Lloreandomonoky: And you try out multiple themes once every how often?
22:28:02Mikachuto me it's at least obvious there isn't consent :)
22:28:05LloreanYou're saying a few seconds, but making the software more confusing for users.
22:28:09Llorean*saving
22:28:35*domonoky doesnt think it will confuse much, as long as its still names "browse themes"
22:29:04Lloreandomonoky: But it still makes it less clear what's going on.
22:29:33LloreanI mean, why not go all the way and put in a <Custom> entry for if the theme has changed?
22:29:41 Quit Jaykay (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:29:59LloreanSeriously, the argument seems to be "we should make it more confusing, but not do the extra steps necessary to keep it from misleading users"
22:30:12domonokythat fine too, but needs tracking of the changed settings. could easily done in two steps..
22:30:19LloreanThe argument that "it's not much more confusing" just means "It screws over few enough users that I don't care."
22:30:24domonokyno
22:30:32Lloreandomonoky: Or it could wait until the whole patch is ready to avoid confusion...
22:31:24domonokyi still dont understand how it should cause so much confusion, the only thing that changes, is where your cursor is, when you enter this screen.
22:31:48Lloreandomonoky: And in every other screen that does that, where your cursor is represents the current *value* rather than the last loaded value.
22:31:59domonokyLlorean: not in filebrowsers.
22:32:16Lloreandomonoky: When you enter a folder in the file browser, you're always at the top
22:32:33domonokyor at the current playing entry..
22:32:37LloreanIf you set volume to -20 in the settings, then change it to -40 in the WPS, if you go back to settings it won't still show -20 because that was the last value you selected in the list. It'll show -40 because that's the current real value
22:32:38JdGordonLlorean: haha :)
22:32:45Lloreandomonoky: Only if you turn on that setting.
22:32:51Lloreandomonoky: So create a setting for "Show last loaded theme" then
22:33:01domonokyLlorean: thats overkill
22:33:06LloreanIt was your comparison
22:33:13Llorean]I was just offering you a way to make it actually valid
22:33:19domonokyno. it was just a example
22:33:25LloreanIt was a bad example, because it depends on a setting
22:33:28LloreanOne that's off by default
22:34:53Lloreandomonoky: Should "manage settings" also show the last loaded .cfg file?
22:35:04domonokyyes, why not ?
22:35:20domonokyand also the eq settings and others.
22:36:10domonokythen you also have you consistency: every "settingsbrowser" behaves the same.
22:36:20LloreanThey behave teh same right now
22:37:40Lloreanhow many times do you reload the last theme you loaded in browse themes?
22:38:16evilnick_home1Are Sansa E200 screens user replacable?
22:38:19LloreanWhy is it so important to have this that it's okay to create the impression in users that it's a file actually in use, even if values are completely different?
22:38:27LloreanWhat about it is so important that it's acceptable to do that?
22:38:47LloreanWould it be okay to highlight "English.lang" in the language browser if the UI was in French?
22:39:03LloreanJust because they loaded it through a .cfg rather than through the list browser?
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22:39:12LloreanIf not, why's it okay to do that with themes?
22:39:27domonokyif you changed the language with some other way then the language selection, why not ?
22:40:02LloreanWhat's the point of highlighting the currently selected one, then, if there's no reason for it to be valid?
22:40:07AlexPevilnick_home1: I imagine you can change them yes, but user replaceable suggests that it is easy to do so, which isn't the case
22:40:26domonokyLlorean: because it gives more information then just not selecting anything.
22:40:37Lloreandomonoky: It gives _wrong_ information sometimes.
22:40:46LloreanAnd that information is unneeded anyway.
22:41:13domonokyLlorean: not if you treat it as "last loaded" instead of "current" theme.
22:41:27LloreanIf you're going to the theme screen, the majority of the time it's to change your theme. The majority of the time it's not, you can just remember anyway. The occasions that's not true, at least nobody's being lied to about anything
22:41:40 Quit atrus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:41:49Lloreandomonoky: And where do we tell the user "In themes it's last loaded, in every other list in the menus it's "current", be aware of this difference"?
22:42:59 Quit timc (Connection timed out)
22:43:02domonokyLlorean: its more like the browse file function in most PC programs. they remeber your last position if they are good.
22:43:43domonokyLlorean: and it would not only be in themes, but in all "special" filebrowsers for settings.
22:43:53Lloreandomonoky: Most of them start in the same folder, with no file selected, for me.
22:44:08domonokyLlorean: that are the bad ones :-)
22:44:30LloreanOnly if I have a file actually open, and I'm trying to save it, does it have the same filename there
22:45:09LloreanMany programs have a "recent files" list sure.
22:45:28domonokythe good ones remembers it for file open, thats just more comfortable.
22:45:46evilnick_home1AlexP: Thanks, I can live with it
22:46:26Lloreandomonoky: I disagree, very strongly. I'd rather see my "Projects" folder, than be in a folder highlighting an individual project.
22:46:36AlexPevilnick_home1: If you get one I'm sure you can, but it is just a little more involved than changing the battery
22:46:46domonokybut i think we can stop this discussion now. conclusion: if we track the changes, and show a modified flag, everyone is happy.
22:47:01LloreanI don't mind if programs reload the files that were already open when I closed the program.
22:47:13Lloreandomonoky: I said that hours ago, you've been arguing against its necessity.
22:47:21domonokyno
22:47:22LloreanWell, an hour ago
22:47:38domonokyi didnt say anything against tracking.
22:47:46LloreanI said it was necessary to avoid confusion.
22:47:53LloreanYou said confusion wouldn't happen in a large enough amount to matter
22:48:01Mikachuif you are in agreement now, maybe you can just be happy? :)
22:48:09domonokyyes, that is still my opinion.
22:48:18LloreanIf you agreed it should be done with that, there was no point in you going on, since I'd already said I wanted that, and you could've just said "I agree with you."
22:48:31domonoky:-)
22:48:43LloreanI'm never going to agree with intentionally misleading the user.
22:48:56LloreanEven if "the number who will be confused is small enough not to matter"
22:49:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:49:15LloreanEspecially for a *tiny* usability gain.
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22:49:39LloreanMy worry though is that it's going to go in as it currently is with a "<Custom> can be added later" and then nobody will bother.
22:49:40*domonoky still thinks that words like "misleading", "lies" are just too srtong words for this. its just a small imperfection. But lets stop here :-)
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22:50:24Lloreandomonoky: "Lie" may be too strong, if you say somewhere *very clearly* that it's not the current value, but the last loaded value. "Misleading" though is true as long as the majority of the UI leads them to believe "if it highlights it, it's because it's what's in use now"
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22:50:32Tornehmm. the pp5020 ata dma patch makes my ipod die a few seconds into buffering. drat.
22:50:45LloreanTorne: I thought it used to work for people
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22:51:28Torneyes
22:51:45Tornethere are a reasonable number of reports of it working, then nobody saying anything after march
22:51:58Tornethen a week or two ago some guy complaining that it made his album art corrupted
22:52:28 Quit merbanan (Remote closed the connection)
22:57:56Horschtithat would be me
22:58:06Torneaha
22:58:13Tornewell, it makes my buffering not work at all :)
22:58:20 Quit aaron424 (Operation timed out)
22:58:21Tornethough it still managed to display the album art correctly! :)
22:58:33Horschtiwell, as I mentioned, I also had playback freezes randomly
22:58:50HorschtiTorne, the albumart issue was strongly related to dircache being enabled
22:58:55Tornei have dircache on
22:59:12Horschtialso, jpeg only :D
22:59:27Torneyah, jpeg
22:59:43Tornei assume your build is less modified than mine so that's some comfort that it's probably not my fault :0
22:59:50Horschtibasicaly it was: FS9708 + dircache + jpeg artwork + harddrive access = garbled AA
23:00
23:00:06Torne(i have, er, 15 patch threads in my loom atm)
23:00:30Horschtifor my test runs i only used fs9708
23:00:38LloreanHorschti: On what device?
23:00:49Horschtiipod video
23:00:55Horschti5.5g 80gb
23:01:04Torneyah, same as mine
23:01:39Torneooh, now it's frozen without even getting to plaback
23:01:42Tornewhile loading dircache+tagcache to ram
23:01:54Horschtiyeah, random freezes...
23:02:37Torneunthreading time then :)
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23:09:50notlisteningdo targets with flash have dir cache option?
23:10:14Mikachuyes
23:10:54notlisteninghumm where in the menu is it, i have been looking
23:12:35Mikachugeneral settings -> system -> disk
23:13:32notlisteningthought i was not being that dumbits not there on the e200v2
23:13:49notlisteningthanks anyways
23:13:51Mikachuit's there on my nano, which is arguably a flash device
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23:14:20notlisteningsure there is a good reason why not
23:14:32Mikachudon't the *200 have less ram or something? maybe that's why you don't have it
23:14:44 Quit mcuelenaere ()
23:14:48LloreanThe e200v1 has the same amount as the Nano at least.
23:14:55LloreanBut I think Dircache is problematic with removable storage
23:15:00*Llorean isn't sure.
23:15:35Mikachu#if ((defined(MEMORYSIZE) && (MEMORYSIZE > 8)) || MEM > 8) && \
23:15:36Mikachu !defined(BOOTLOADER)
23:15:36Mikachu#define HAVE_DIRCACHE
23:16:30Mikachui'm not exactly sure where memorysize comes from
23:16:37Bagdermemory=8
23:16:42Bagder(in tools/configure)
23:16:44Mikachuah
23:16:50Mikachuso that is why it is not enabled then
23:16:51bertrikI have the dircache menu on my e200 (although it's a slightly old build)
23:17:33Mikachuconfigure says the e200 has 32MB but the e200v2 has *MB
23:17:35Mikachu8*
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23:23:07n17ikhisn't dircache pretty pointless on a flash-based device?
23:23:20n17ikhI thought the object was to save power by reducing disk spin-ups
23:23:32n17ikhbut there's no such overhead in flash-based devices
23:23:39Mikachuthey're still slow
23:23:51Bagderwell, you may still save power on things such as the nano I believe
23:24:08Mikachugoing into the rocks/ dir takes a second or three without dircache on my nano
23:24:11Bagderas it has some kind of auto-sleep on inactivity
23:24:33Bagder(the flash/bridge something) or maybe I dreamt that
23:26:07rasherI think it also has advantages related to the Database, but I could be making that up
23:26:33LloreanIt used to
23:26:41rasherAlso, RAM should be faster than the flash, shouldn't it?
23:26:45LloreanI think the database was eventually improved to the point where it doesn't need Dircache.
23:27:12lilltigerI just noticed the strangest thing, I generated an playlist from all my music, i have shuffle set to yes an repeat set to shuffle, it generates an randomized playlist just like i wanted. But, and this is a big one.. it puts all remixes after eatch other! so some somgs are like 5-8 in a row cos i have meny remixes of it
23:28:01rasherI'd wager that you didn't do what you think you did
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23:28:21kugelthe MEMORYSIZE check should probably lowered for flash based devices
23:28:41kugelit also helps against wear leveling (but probably to an unnoticeable extend)
23:29:00LloreanWouldn't dircache worsen wear levelling, since every file write requires updating dircache as well?
23:29:04kugeland yes, I have it enabled on my e200v1, as it makes things faster
23:29:07Mikachueh? dircache only does something for reads, so how does it help for wear?
23:29:36kugelLlorean: the dircache is in ram
23:29:47Lloreankugel: Only if set to Load to RAM
23:29:48lilltigerrasher: ohh? why did it only put remixes after eatch other but not anything else
23:29:59kugelLlorean: that's the database
23:30:09Mikachudircache only has on/off
23:30:19Lloreankugel: Ah. Well, it still must be updated on disk.
23:30:23LloreanIt can't persist in RAM after shutdown
23:30:28LloreanSo, again, what writes does it prevent?
23:30:37kugelLoad to RAM is actually TC_RAMCACHE (or something like that)
23:30:46rasherlilltiger: That I don't know, it just sounds a bit unlikely. How did you generate the playlist?
23:31:20LloreanOr is dircache regenerated every boot?
23:31:23*Llorean would think that's no good
23:31:36kugeldircache only caches directory entries
23:31:41lilltigerrasher: just Playlists -> create playlist
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23:32:02rasherlilltiger: And then just opening that and setting shuffle to on?
23:32:16kugeland (but I'm not too sure) attributes like last modified
23:32:33lilltigerrasher: just viewing it shows that it has put all remixes after eatch other
23:33:16Tuplanollaof course it shows
23:33:29Mikachuthe randomise_playlist function (which is called by playlist_randomise o.O) doesn't contain any string matching in its randomising
23:33:30Lloreanlilltiger: The playlist itself isn't generated shuffled unless you "insert shuffled"
23:33:37LloreanShuffled playback means "Play an in order playlist in a shuffled order"
23:34:04rasherYeah, what Llorean said. The playlist is in order, but won't be played back in that order when shuffle is on
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23:34:20kugelLlorean: I think it also caches attributes, so updated timestamps would be cached
23:34:45Slasheridircache is build on every boot except on a very few targets where we can be certain the disk has not been modified without rockbox knowing it (H1xx and bootloader V7-pre4)
23:34:55kugelwell, I don't really think wear levelling is a good argument, but speeding things up is
23:35:06MikachuSlasheri: is it done in the background?
23:35:11SlasheriMikachu: correct
23:35:17Slasheriafter the initial scan
23:35:30Slasheri(which is used to estimate the needed amount of ram)
23:35:33Lloreankugel: And that prevents them from being written? Wouldn't that mean if the system crashed, a lot of file attributes would be wrong?
23:35:51kugelyes
23:35:57LloreanYes to which question?
23:36:06kugelboth
23:36:14Slasheriyep, dircache caches all attributes, including start sector of the file allocation
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23:36:42Mikachurockbox doesn't actually bother to update the "last access time" attribute, does it?
23:36:43kugeldircache would be pretty useless else
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23:37:00kugelit would mean you cached the directory to enter, but need to spin up anyway due to updating attributes
23:37:11Slasheriindeed
23:37:34lilltigerhttp://privatepaste.com/e40feg17cY
23:37:51Slasheriand dircache has nothing to do with wear leveling, it wont write the cache to disk (except those H1xx players)
23:37:58kugeldircache is good for flash too imo
23:37:58lilltigerjust check it and tell me if you think it's correct.. :p
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23:38:26rasherlilltiger: There's no wrong or right order
23:38:27kugelI think all our flash targets have some sort of putting the sd controller into sleep to save battery time
23:38:37rasherlilltiger: I suspect they're simply in the order FAT has them listed
23:38:56kugeldircache can prevents wakening it up repeatedly, speeding accesses up and saving battery too
23:39:12lilltigerrasher: oer 2 different devices? it has tried realy hard just to get all the remixes after eatch other
23:39:35Lloreanrasher: Or his database.
23:39:35rasherlilltiger: It doesn't know which song is a remix and which isn't
23:39:44rasherLlorean: Does "create playlist" use the database?
23:39:48kugelSlasheri: how much ram is the dircache approximately?
23:39:58Lloreanrasher: "Create Playlist" runs from wherever you left the browser. I don't know if that includes the database or not.
23:40:13LloreanIt would be silly if it doesn't, but I could see that I guess.
23:40:26Slasherikugel: that depends on the number of files and the length on filenames
23:40:31kugelSlasheri: it needs to write the cache on shutdown, not?
23:40:32lilltigerrasher: yhee but how can it order em like that without trying to do it..
23:40:35Slasheriusually it's something like 500 KiB
23:40:52Slasherikugel: on H1xx yes, otherwise no
23:40:56rasherlilltiger: Because that's the order they are in on your filesystem. Or in the database, if that's what was used
23:40:59Lloreanlilltiger: It creates it like that explicitly *because* it doesn't try to.
23:41:12Lloreanlilltiger: When you "create playlist" it goes through all your files and puts them in in the order it finds them
23:41:16LloreanWhich usually means "one folder at a time"
23:41:29Slasherikugel: that's the dircache and tagcache "hibernation" feature available only on H1xx because bootloader support is required for that
23:41:29kugelSlasheri: Ah, I see. It doesn't flush because it needs to rebuild anyway
23:41:35LloreanYou'll notice you have your music grouped in folders. Since all your remixes are in the same folder, they go in at the same time.
23:42:13lilltigerahh it might be the database that has em ordered like that.. cos the filesystem wont order files across devices..
23:42:20rasherLooks like it was made from the Database
23:43:54rasherWeird, I get two slashes if I create a playlist from the disk (Playlists > Create Playlist without doing anything first)
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23:44:14rasherSuch as //<microSD1>/blabla.ogg
23:44:23kugelSlasheri: I guess that's too much for the clip :P but I think 8MB flash targets should have it
23:46:13kugelrasher, Llorean: I was thinking if we can make the theme settings track related changes, offering the current theme preselected if unmodified, and offerring a "<modifed (last loaded: XXX)>" entry if it settings were changed
23:46:29Mikachuwasn't that my idea?
23:46:37kugelwas it?
23:46:40kugelsorry then
23:46:45Mikachuwell, maybe we got it independently :)
23:46:54rasherFeel free
23:46:54kugelI bet so :p
23:47:29*kugel is busy with other things
23:49:13kugelMikachu: it could even be the selected theme, with a changed name. after that a selection comes up (reload, save as...)
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23:52:32Lloreankugel: That's been suggested by a few people. :-P
23:53:01LloreanIt's really all I'm asking for - make sure users aren't shown something that isn't what's actually in use.
23:53:53kugelI don't really see a problem with showing the last loaded (instead of currently active) stuff in the case of .cfg browsers
23:54:16notlisteningdomonoky, for the fwwsback from the server i am following RFC3261 passing messages like 200 OK back to the client will that do?
23:54:32notlistening*feedback
23:54:52Lloreankugel: Just because you don't see a problem doesn't mean it isn't very user unfriendly. You know how things work.
23:55:10domonokynotlistening: sure.
23:55:15Lloreankugel: It's inconsistent both with how settings work, and with how the filebrowser normally works. It's special casing just those lists.
23:55:27LloreanAnd it's special casing them to sometimes be 100% inaccurate.
23:56:52 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
23:56:58kugelonly if you treat it as currently active, which I don't do, so it's never incorrect in my opinion
23:57:30LloreanHow is a user supposed to know it's special?
23:57:35LloreanThe whole UI trains them "things work this way"
23:57:36kugelanyway, I don't really want to restart this discussion now
23:57:40pixelmaif user's change "back" and it will be different, you'll get the complaints
23:57:42LloreanThen *one* screen, or maybe *three* screens work different
23:57:45LloreanBut they *look8 exactly the same
23:58:20LloreanThere's no indicator to a user "this screen is special, and doesn't work like anything else, even though there's no good reason why it can't other than we know how it works, and wanted it this way"
23:58:34Lloreanit doesn't even really improve any specific use cases
23:58:44LloreanHow often do you need to know, or reload, the same theme? How often have you *ever* done it?
23:58:58LloreanHow much time would this have saved you over the last two years of use of Rockbox? 15 seconds?

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