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#rockbox log for 2009-08-20

00:01:05 Join truthtaco_ [0] (n=truthtac@adsl-74-5-7.aby.bellsouth.net)
00:05:21 Join truthtaco__ [0] (n=truthtac@adsl-74-11-204.aby.bellsouth.net)
00:06:12 Quit pamaury ("exit(*(int *)0 / 0);")
00:06:31 Quit tvelocity (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
00:09:03 Join chris200x9 [0] (i=62f342b6@gateway/web/freenode/x-huioqmlprtwcrkls)
00:11:15chris200x9I need some help I just used windows to restore my ipod mini 1st gen to fat32 I am using the rockbox 3.3 installer everytime I try to install it keeps telling me it cannot work on my macpod but it's definitly fat32 not hfs+
00:11:49 Quit ender` (" I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we h")
00:12:10chris200x9by the way I'm on mac os x now though
00:12:12bluebrotherchris200x9: are you running Rockbox Utility on a mac or windows machine?
00:12:19bluebrotherok, too slow ...
00:12:37bluebrotherhave you restarted Rockbox Utility after restoring to FAT32?
00:12:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:13:25chris200x9yes, I am running it from the dmg though should i drags it to desktop or something
00:13:26 Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@athedsl-4487977.home.otenet.gr)
00:13:26chris200x9?
00:13:55bluebrotherthat shouldn't be necessary −− and I'm not really familiar with macs unfortunately
00:14:06bluebrotherlooks like you're experiencing this issue: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9833
00:14:16bluebrothercan you dump the MBR of the Ipod?
00:14:48chris200x9how would I do that?
00:15:49CIA-61New commit by 03nls (r22432): fix red
00:16:21bluebrotherchris200x9: the task I linked has the command line −− the "dd if=..." thing
00:16:22 Quit TruthTaco (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:16:34MG_ManWell, I would try formatting it in mac
00:16:42MG_ManIf that doesnt work then yeah dd
00:16:49bluebrotheryou need to figure the device (most likely not /dev/disk8 but a different number in your case)
00:17:07chris200x9would my issue be easily resolved by just doing it manually?
00:17:07MG_ManYou might find how to do this on a linux help site too
00:17:12MG_ManThe concept is the same
00:17:14bluebrotherwell, I'd like to see the MBR. Something _has_ to be different −− or we have a rather nasty bug in Rockbox Utility
00:17:38bluebrotheryou most likely should succeed when using ipodpatcher for installing the bootloader.
00:17:54MG_ManIn fact, the terminal and most commands for mac and linux are the same
00:17:58bluebrotherunfortunately Rockbox Utility is barely tested on OS X due to no developer working on OS X.
00:18:21chris200x9ok thanx I'll try the ipodcather first
00:18:22linuxstbchris200x9: You could also use ipodpatcher to identify the disk device - but it would be useful if you could do some tests before actually telling ipodpatcher to do the install.
00:18:25bluebrotherMG_Man: replace "same" with "similar". /dev/sdX is somewhat different to /dev/diskN
00:18:27MG_ManIs there WINE for Mac?
00:18:40 Join PaulJam [0] (n=Paule@p54BED58F.dip.t-dialin.net)
00:18:43MG_ManThats device names, which are different
00:19:03MG_ManI'm not sure how Rockbox Utility works in WINE or not
00:19:14pixelmabluebrother: I have access to some Macs now and could do some testing - not with an Ipod though
00:19:23bluebrotherMG_Man: you do NOT want to run Rockbox Utility from within wine. Definitely.
00:19:55bluebrotherpixelma: getting some testing would be great, though I have the impression we have a bug with ipods here −− which would need a debug session ...
00:20:12pixelmaalso, I can only test if time permits, those are computers at work
00:20:20bluebrotherunfortunately I can't build for mac −− you need to ping domonoky1 for that.
00:20:30MG_ManBut yeah
00:20:39MG_ManFirst get the device name of the ipod when plugged in
00:20:47 Quit truthtaco_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:21:27bluebrothersome functionality in ipodpatcher to dump the MBR would be nice in these situations :o
00:21:35MG_ManThen dd if=dev/diskX of=OutPutFile (Make it a text file) and what's the size of the MBR?
00:21:48MG_Manin bytes
00:21:50bluebrother512 bytes.
00:22:37MG_Mandd if=dev/diskX of=OutPutFile (Make it a text file) bs=512 count=1
00:22:44linuxstbMG_Man: The URL bluebrother posted has the dd command-line...
00:22:49*bluebrother hands n1s 265 points :)
00:23:10MG_Manah.
00:23:14bluebrothermake the MBR a _text_ file? Urgh.
00:24:01n1swell, it's less at least
00:24:07bluebrotherhehe :)
00:24:55MG_ManYou would still see it the same as if looking at a .bin file
00:25:17bluebrother?
00:25:20 Part chris200x9
00:25:29MG_ManBut I guess you could just open the .bin in whatever viewer the guys use
00:26:35bluebrotherthe MBR is 512 bytes of binary. Opening in a text editor would only show garbage.
00:27:19domonoky1bluebrother: not if the editor also has a hex mode :-)
00:27:34bluebrotherdomonoky1: or if you can :%!xxd :)
00:27:39 Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
00:30:04 Join moveax1 [0] (n=lutz@i577BB72A.versanet.de)
00:30:11moveax1hi
00:30:25 Quit domonoky1 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:30:35moveax1is it normal that fsck.msdos says the following on an ipod with rockbox installed?
00:30:45moveax1There are differences between boot sector and its backup.
00:30:45moveax1Differences: (offset:original/backup)
00:30:45moveax1 65:01/00
00:30:45DBUGEnqueued KICK moveax1
00:30:45moveax11) Copy original to backup
00:30:46moveax12) Copy backup to original
00:30:46***Alert Mode level 1
00:30:46moveax13) No action
00:30:49moveax1whoo
00:30:52moveax1sry for the paste
00:31:15moveax1its not my ipod and i think the filesystem was corrupted
00:32:22linuxstbNo, it's not normal. But filesystem corruption on removable disks isn't uncommon...
00:32:49moveax1sure
00:33:11moveax1can i format the entire disk with fat again, without breaking rockbox or something else?
00:33:36linuxstbNot the entire disk, but the entire partition.
00:33:54linuxstbi.e. /dev/sdX2
00:33:56moveax1here it is /dev/sdb2
00:34:08moveax1there is a folder called "music"
00:34:46 Quit PaulJam (".")
00:34:55linuxstbYou'll need to reinstall rockbox - it's in the .rockbox directory in the root of that partition. But the Rockbox bootloader is installed on /dev/sdb1, so you don't need to reinstall that.
00:35:36linuxstbOnly gotcha is on "5.5g" ipods - you'll need to use mtools to format it reliably - see http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodManualRestore
00:35:55 Quit tvelocity (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:36:27moveax1its an 2gb ipod nano
00:36:43CIA-61New commit by 03nls (r22433): fix more red
00:37:24moveax1i've never get in touch with an ipod or rockbox, so sorry for my questions. but a friend of mine wants to repair it
00:37:37MG_ManIs that some injoke or something
00:37:43MG_Manthe Fix more red thing
00:38:22BagderMG_Man: it's a color in the build table
00:38:33Bagderwhich stands for "ERROR"
00:38:42 Join Adman65 [0] (n=Adman65@76.103.90.45)
00:38:44Adman65hey
00:39:04moveax1linuxstb: is there a manual for installing rockbox?
00:39:08Adman65anyone know an player that uses a hdd for storage ?
00:39:14MG_ManYes there is
00:39:21MG_Manyou have the Nano 1G right?
00:39:23linuxstbmoveax1: Yes - you may want to visit our website...
00:39:31moveax1sry
00:39:34moveax1i will do it now
00:39:35MG_Manhttp://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ipodnano/rockbox-build.html
00:39:42bluebrothertoo easy.
00:39:47bluebrotherhttp://www.rockbox.org
00:40:02bluebrotherfollow the white rabbit ... err, blue link
00:40:26MG_ManYou'll see how deep the rabbit hole really goes
00:40:30bluebrother:P
00:40:39moveax1linuxstb: thanks for the input
00:40:47***Alert Mode OFF
00:40:50linuxstbAdman65: There are many... Assuming you want one for Rockbox, see the list on the top of the front page of the website.
00:40:57 Quit CaptainKwel ("Page closed")
00:41:18CIA-61New commit by 03nls (r22434): fix svn properties
00:41:24MG_ManNone of the nanos do
00:41:34MG_ManGenerally anything over 10GB is HDD storage
00:41:50 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
00:41:53MG_ManBut there are some cases where HDD storage is under 10
00:42:52CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
00:42:52*bluebrother looks at his non-hdd mini with 32GB :P
00:42:56 Part Adman65
00:43:07MG_ManI don
00:43:09MG_ManEr
00:43:15MG_ManI don't think memory cards count :P
00:43:23moveax1sounds like just unpacking a zip, because the bootloader is allready installed
00:43:47MG_ManBut that's true, with a player with memory card slots you can have more storage than most flashes even if the player itself is flash
00:43:51linuxstbmoveax1: Yes, that's all it is.
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00:43:58*Bagder waves his 32GB sdhc
00:43:59moveax1ty
00:44:11MG_Manmoveax1: It seems your bootloader might be somewhat corrupted though
00:44:23 Join chris200x9 [0] (i=62f342b6@gateway/web/freenode/x-huioqmlprtwcrkls)
00:44:23MG_ManThe MBR anyway
00:44:23moveax1MG_Man: why?
00:44:33MG_ManWait
00:44:36moveax1i can get the data from the player
00:44:37MG_ManNo, I confused you with someone else
00:44:38MG_ManSorry
00:44:40moveax1per usb
00:44:44moveax1okay :)
00:44:51chris200x9uhhh I installed it manually wrong
00:44:59chris200x9now nothing sees my ipod
00:45:14MG_Manany more info than that?
00:45:20MG_Man"ITS BROKEN" is not very helpful
00:45:26linuxstbchris200x9: Force it into disk mode - hold MENU+SELECT for a few seconds to reset, then immediately press and hold SELECT+PLAY
00:45:58chris200x9\o/
00:45:59bluebrotherBagder: nice :)
00:46:01chris200x9thank you
00:46:04linuxstbchris200x9: But what did your ipod show on the screen?
00:46:28moveax1fuck
00:46:43moveax1sudo mkfs.msdos /dev/sdb2 killed all
00:46:52chris200x9I know what I did wrong
00:46:56bluebrothersure, you created a new filesystem.
00:47:06MG_Manthat's generally what formatting does
00:47:19bluebrotherreally?
00:47:24moveax1http://nopaste.org/p/a1Gor7tqkb
00:47:25MG_Manyeah
00:47:27bluebrotherfromatting formats the drive?
00:47:28moveax1my dmesg output
00:47:42moveax1no thats not what i mean
00:47:43chris200x9it just said something abou rockbox not found but i think i got it
00:47:47moveax1i've backed up the data
00:47:56MG_Manthen you're good then
00:47:57moveax1i cant access the drive per usb under linux
00:48:01MG_ManOh
00:48:20moveax1any hint for me?
00:48:23bluebrothermoveax1: have you checked the cable?
00:48:30moveax1yes
00:48:31bluebrotheralso, don't use front usb ports
00:48:37MG_Mandisconnect it, make sure it's in disk mode and plug it in again?
00:48:38moveax1its an laptop
00:48:45moveax1the ports are directly on the board
00:48:49bluebrotherok, that rules this out
00:49:07moveax1if i plug it in
00:49:09 Nick truthtaco__ is now known as TruthTaco (n=truthtac@adsl-74-11-204.aby.bellsouth.net)
00:49:11bluebrotheris the dmesg output in emergency disk mode?
00:49:21moveax1there is a msg on the ipod display
00:49:29moveax1dmesg is from my laptop
00:49:32bluebrotherwith the Ipod in emergency disk mode that is
00:50:45MG_ManWhat does the display msg say?
00:51:03moveax1loading rockbox....
00:51:04moveax1error
00:51:17moveax1he can't find the .rockbox folder
00:51:28moveax1but thats natural because it isnt on the disk
00:51:29MG_ManHave you plugged it in in forced disk mode>
00:51:43moveax1how to do it=
00:51:50MG_Man<linuxstb>chris200x9: Force it into disk mode - hold MENU+SELECT for a few seconds to reset, then immediately press and hold SELECT+PLAY
00:51:56MG_Manthen plug it in
00:51:58moveax1oj okay
00:52:04chris200x9thanx
00:52:35moveax1okay
00:52:36 Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@athedsl-4490111.home.otenet.gr)
00:52:45moveax1mount /dev/sdb2 can't read superblock
00:53:18MG_Mandoes dmesg | tail show the same as before?
00:53:24moveax1one moment pls
00:54:01moveax1yes it is the same
00:54:18chris200x9I have a problem mac os x unzips stuff by itself so I am left with a blank folder after doing it manually I've tried to paste the folder into the root of my ipod but it doesnt boot, so would it work if i did a cd to folder cp * $path/to/roo/of/ipod
00:54:21kkurbjunhmm, checkwps definitely does not work on the M:robe 500 - it won't work for any touchscreen that takes advantage of the newer tags
00:54:26MG_Manwell for sure the FS is screwed up
00:54:40MG_ManCan you fschk it again?
00:55:04MG_ManI'm starting to think there's physical damage now, how did it happen i nthe first place?
00:55:20moveax1the hole disk to check or only the partition
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00:55:30MG_ManI'd do the whole thing to be safe
00:55:35kkurbjunrasher: are you around/
00:55:40moveax1my gf comes to me and says it don't work pls check it
00:55:42MG_ManBut the only problematic one is the partition, so that could work I guess
00:55:55linuxstbchris200x9: The command-line "unzip" will do the right thing. e.g. "unzip rockbox.zip -d /Volumes/iPod/"
00:55:57MG_ManWell, did she drop it or something?
00:56:05moveax1i've never touched an ipod before
00:56:10 Quit bmbl ("Bye!")
00:56:20MG_ManAsk her if she dropped it
00:56:42MG_ManIf she did, there's really nothing you can do to fix it short of replacing the drive or ignoring the damaged sectors
00:56:46chris200x9ok so I just rezip it?
00:56:51chris200x9thanks :)
00:56:59bluebrotherchris200x9: you can also use Rockbox Utility, manually configure it and use the "Install Rockbox" button from the "Installation" tab. Don't use "Install Bootloader" or the Quickstart tab though.
00:57:13moveax1MG_Man: here is the fsck output
00:57:14moveax1http://nopaste.org/p/aDGHbEUFe
00:57:21MG_Manto do that you'd have to move the partition to avoid the damaged area, but you might lose some storage space
00:57:25 Quit Lynx_ (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client")
00:57:33bluebrotherif you configure the mountpoint correctly (i.e. something like /Volumes/iPod) it should do everything for you
00:57:34 Quit jgarvey (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
00:57:48moveax1she says a few days ago the ipod started, gives an alert sound an turned off again
00:57:49chris200x9ah thanx
00:57:54MG_ManBoot sector
00:58:19MG_ManI'd do a check of the whole device
00:58:24MG_ManI have to go eat now, so brb
00:58:25moveax1so i should reset the mbr to the backup. option 2?
00:58:34moveax1cya later thanks
00:59:16 Quit bluebrother ("gtg")
01:00
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01:02:21 Quit chris200x9 (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
01:02:29 Quit n1s ("Lämnar")
01:03:57BdN3504what are the \opts for mono, greyscale and colour in the manual?
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01:17:03linuxstbBdN3504: I _think_ they're the ones defined in apps/features.txt. Just lcd_non-mono and lcd_color currently.
01:18:48 Quit Sajber^1 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:19:52GeorgesHello, I am a proud user of an iriver H10 20gb that uses rockbox for quite some time. Two months ago I replaced the 20gb drive with a 40gb one and updated to the latest rocbox version. Everything works fine, except I noticed that the volume I used has shifted noticably. I used to listen at around -25dB and now I have to exceed -10dB to get a decent volume and also have some noise in the background. Might that be
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01:21:53linuxstbGeorges: You got cut off at "Might that be"
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01:22:51moveax1re
01:23:31GeorgesMight that be because of the "transplant", or because of the firmware somehow not supporting extra storage?
01:25:45linuxstbGeorges: I can't imagine why the disk would make any difference. Are you listening to the same files? What was the previous version of Rockbox you had installed?
01:25:59 Part toffe82
01:27:07moveax1MG_Man, linuxstb thx for your help
01:27:35moveax1i've resetted the ipod to factory settings with itunes under windows and installed rockbox manually on the ipod
01:27:48 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
01:27:50moveax1its all working now, and i am a little hero for my gf ;)
01:27:57moveax1so this night is save
01:28:40GeorgesI don't really remember, to be honest, but I believe it was the stable release that was up over two months ago i.e. 3.2. And yes I am listening to the exactly same files, they all got coppied as they were from the old disk. Could it be the fact that the bigger disk draws more power?
01:29:43 Quit Lss (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:29:45*linuxstb doesn't do hardware questions...
01:30:46GeorgesSorry, I'm only trying to figure out if it's related to rockbox somehow. If it's not, then I'm out of here!
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01:31:20linuxstbGeorges: I just meant that I personally can't help.
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01:31:51BdN3504is there a way to exclude certain targets? \opt but reverse?
01:32:02BdN3504is it called \noopt?
01:32:45linuxstb\nopt
01:32:52GeorgesOK. Could you please help me with the Old Releases page? I could just try installing a previous version, but I get a page with a list of different files, and I'm kind of lost.
01:33:05BdN3504ty
01:33:08UnhelpfulGeorges: any *different* disk might draw more or less power
01:34:17linuxstbGeorges: Hmm, that link seems to go to the wrong place now - it should be called "very old releases". You may have more luck here - http://download.rockbox.org/release/
01:34:38GeorgesOK. I think I compared the new and old disks though and was surprized to find that they matched at everything. Could that also be power? Is it written on the disk?
01:35:18Unhelpful...is *what* written on the disk?
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01:37:01GeorgesIs power consumption usually writen on HDs? Because if it is, then they are identical, and power is not the culprit. I just don't remember.
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01:42:54GeorgesWell I tried older versions and it didn't do the trick, so it's probably something to do with the drive itself. Thanks a lot for the help though!
01:43:43linuxstbGeorges: Could you have accidentally damaged the board when upgrading the disk? You could try putting the old disk back (if you still have it and it still works).
01:44:22 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:46:21GeorgesWell I might have done something, because the radio has suddenly gone mono, but the radio's volume is fine. So i'm seeing a connection to the disk there. I'll try puting the old one back and see what happens.
01:51:54kkurbjunGeorges: the harddrive is unlikely the problem
01:52:01MG_ManI think you might have damaged something on the board when swapping
01:52:05MG_ManCheck the solder leads ,etc.
01:52:23MG_ManLook for anything unusual, no matter how minor
01:52:26MG_ManElectronics are picky
01:52:42kkurbjuneven if it drew more power it would only be for a short period of time and the liion batteries can supply the draw easily.
01:55:49GeorgesAlright, I will scrutinously check the board. Hope I find something. Thanks a lot once more!
01:56:06 Quit Georges ("CGI:IRC")
01:57:07MG_ManI was gonna say if he damaged a path on the board to just draw it back in with a pencil
02:00
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02:04:21ej0rgeeh, that works on old athlons, but graphite is a bit more resistive than copper for most circuit board jobs.
02:04:44MG_Manfor a quick fix it may work
02:04:48MG_ManUnless you're good enough with solder
02:06:20ej0rgewell, I am. most people probably not. but unless they expose the copper on the board, pencil will just make it dirty.
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02:13:00***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:36:44CIA-61New commit by 03kkurbjun (r22435): M:Robe 500: Add support for DMA based LCD updates when in Portrait mode. TestFPS measures 190 FPS with the DMA updates vs. 58 FPS for the non-DMA ...
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05:44:00kkurbjunJdGordon: I have another theme that seems to be having some trouble - I'm not sure if it has to do with the changes that you and kugel made though
05:44:16kkurbjunthe %pv tag does not seem to be properly updating with volume changes
05:44:33JdGordonblame kugel :)
05:44:36JdGordonsend it to me
05:44:41JdGordon%pv shouldnt have changed though
05:45:23kkurbjuncool, thanks for taking a look
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05:47:09kkurbjunThis one is actually a complete theme, but I would expect it to behave the same with just loading the wps
05:48:21JdGordontarget?>
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05:49:19kkurbjunM:Robe 500
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05:49:54kkurbjunUnfortunatley I can't upload it to the themes site - no touchscreen targets will pass the old checkwps builds
05:50:15kkurbjunsince they are not aware of the %T tags
05:50:31JdGordonyeah, I think rasher should disable that check temporarily
05:50:49JdGordoni do intend on fixing that though... no idea on eta
05:51:21JdGordonwe are still defaulting to grid mode?
05:51:49JdGordondan nice theme!
05:51:51JdGordondamn*
05:52:05kkurbjun:), yeah, I was hoping to get hold or rasher sometime to find out how reasonable it would be to get checkwps disabled
05:52:08kkurbjun:-D Thanks
05:52:20JdGordonok, whats the issue?
05:52:33JdGordonplay/pause is inverted :)
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05:52:56MG_ManHe also said the %pv tag didnt update with volume change
05:52:57kkurbjunif you use the volume slider the Volume: %pv does not update
05:53:05kkurbjunon the main screen
05:53:43kkurbjunoh, I have it display what it is currently doing rather than what it will do if you press it
05:53:45JdGordonthats rather odd
05:53:50kkurbjunI guess that was intentional
05:54:08JdGordoni tihnk thats backwards.... or confusing
05:54:12JdGordonbut its your theme :)
05:54:37kkurbjun:), so you are seeing it not update?
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05:54:49JdGordonvolume is changing... display isnt... time to check the code
05:55:11kkurbjunI noticed that the %mv tag also doesn't seem to evaluate true when you use the slider
05:55:15MG_ManI ought to get into theming when my h320 arrives
05:55:27MG_ManHave a few ideas
05:55:37kkurbjunthe %mv tag works when using the remote to change volume
05:55:44JdGordonOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH... i know what the issue is...
05:55:47MG_ManLike Winamp Classic, someone made one but I think I can make it more suited to a handheld DAP
05:56:41MG_ManWhat is the iriver H320's resolution again? I can probably do it now with a simulator
05:57:08kkurbjun220x176 I think
05:57:32MG_ManI guess I could also port some of the niftier themes to the other devices as well if the authors don't mind
05:57:42MG_ManI noticed some nifty themes for one player that weren't for another, etc.
05:58:08kkurbjunyeah, everything on the themes site is free for you to do that
05:58:15kkurbjunthey are all CC-BY-SA
05:59:03MG_ManYes, it os 220x176
05:59:09MG_Manis*
05:59:22kkurbjunJdGordon: what do you think the problem is?
05:59:35JdGordonthe display isnt being updated :)
05:59:41kkurbjun:)
05:59:45MG_ManOh so silly
05:59:52JdGordonoh bloody hell
06:00
06:07:29CIA-61New commit by 03jdgordon (r22436): update the display after getting a bit too close to the touchscreen instead of just asking it nicely to change volume!
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06:32:39kkurbjunJdGordon: your fix works great! thanks
06:33:01JdGordon:)
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09:02:46amiconnkkurbjun: With just one extra operation per pixel (on average), it is possible to both read & write in 64 bit chunks (two regs, 4 pixels) in the landscape update on mr500
09:04:12amiconnIn order to simplify things it would require to round x, y, width and height to multiples of 4, but that shouldn't be a problem since several other targets update slightly larger areas in lcd_update_rect() as well
09:04:59amiconnPacked pixel formats require it anyway, and the colour PP targets round x and width to multiples of 2 iirc
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09:05:41scorche|shpixelma: now that you might have a chance of being awake, yes i did move the MIDI patchset to my server...as linked on here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/PluginMidiPlay
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09:05:50scorche|shis there a link to the patchset i missed?
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09:07:27amiconnkkurbjun: What clock frequency is the mr500 running at?
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09:28:03pamaurygevaerts: kudgel told you were the one to ask about storage. Can you answer some of my questions ?
09:28:48gevaertspamaury: well, I could, but it's 3:30 AM here, and I was just going to sleep...
09:29:17pamauryah, ok. I'll ask you later :)
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09:41:56ZagorJdGordon: can you kick australia-jdgordon? it keeps disconnecting.
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09:47:04BagderI suspect he sleeps
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09:48:44Zagorslacker!
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10:08:56pixelmascorche|sh: there is also a link on the SoundCodecs wiki page which hasn't been updated yet
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13:17:40dfkti made a mistake in the description of a theme i just uploaded, could someone please fix that?
13:18:00dfkthttp://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?target=x5 <−− in DFKT Maximum AA i added the "Works with current build Works with release 3.3" to the description
13:18:17dfktthat shouldn't be there, methinks
13:21:19merbzt3does anyone know exactly the signing process employed by the Gigabeat S and Zune players ?
13:22:25Tornemerbzt3: I know it roughly, and how we bypass it on Gigabeat S
13:22:30Tornewhat do you want to know?
13:23:07merbzt3what I'm interested in is the size of the certificate (in bits)
13:23:28Tornei have it somewhere, lemme check
13:23:29merbzt3is it standard RSA ?
13:23:36Torneyes
13:24:02Torneso no, it's impractical to attack it
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13:24:02Torne:)
13:24:59merbzt3the size is 1024 or something
13:25:40merbzt3anyway this is a fun read
13:25:42merbzt3http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=8888&st=0
13:25:43BagderRSA-129! :-)
13:26:13TorneHm, there are lots of certs in the rom
13:26:30merbzt3they factorized a certificate for TI-83+
13:26:30Tornehttp://www.rockbox.org/twiki/pub/Main/GigabeatSInfo/GigabeatSRomfiles.rar has someone's work at reversing it including asn1 dumps of the certs
13:26:58TorneThe shortest moduli I can see are 4096 bits, though :)
13:27:07Tornenot entirely sure which certs are for what
13:28:15TorneAh, there we go, i think the last one mentioned is the signature
13:28:38Tornelooks like 2048
13:31:08Tornei assume the reason you care is you want to run stuff on the zone
13:31:10Tornezune, even
13:31:30Tornesince iirc it doesn' thave the hideous bootloader bug the S does
13:33:44TorneThe TI calc thing is RSA-512, this has been factored lots of times before :)
13:33:47Torneit's slow but not intractable
13:34:27TorneRSA-1024 already would've taken that guy millions of years, and I can assure you that the sigs used by the CE bootloader are *at least* 1024 bits :)
13:34:31Tornemore likely 2048
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13:38:08n1sTorne: would an exploit similar to the one in the newer ipods work on the zune or does it have some kind of protection while running too?
13:40:14Tornethe zune is just a boring normal CE device
13:40:22Torneit has no particular runtime security, any more than any other DAP ;)
13:40:29Torneif there's a buffer overrun somewhere then sure
13:41:10n1sok, good to know
13:46:16n1si wonder if those new zune hd's would be any fun but of course there will be no public docs from nvidia...
13:47:04Tornehm, actually that's not entirely true
13:47:06merbzt3Torne: just checking the possibilities, I just didn't know that it would be possible for me to factor rsa-512
13:47:31Tornemerbzt3: it is, if you are determined and have a few months. but the difficulty goes up exponentially as does the storage requirmenets
13:47:59Tornen1s: actually, a lot of the zune frontend software may be CLR-based
13:48:15Tornen1s: which means it's very unlikely that a typical buffer overrun type exploit would give you system access
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13:48:25Torneyou would have to find a bug in one of the low level components
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13:49:06TorneI don't know exactly which bits might be native code or not, i'm afraid
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13:50:29Tornemerbzt3: i posted a number of good explanations of RSA cracking to xbox-hacker actually, lemme find them if you'r einterested :)
13:51:13merbzt3I am
13:51:58Tornehttp://www.xboxhacker.net/index.php?topic=10472.0 and http://www.xboxhacker.net/index.php?topic=9884.0
13:52:08merbzt3the NFS is such a nice "tool"
13:52:16merbzt3almost as mice as MUSIC
13:52:21merbzt3*nice
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13:53:50Torne663 bits is afaik the biggest RSA modulus that's been factorised so far
13:53:58Torneand that was 3 months on an 80-cpu cluster
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14:28:02mtmerbzt3: Did you receive the second patch ?
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14:58:43kkurbjunamiconn: the mr500 runs at 87.5 MHz unboosted, 175 MHz booosted
14:58:59kkurbjunThe DSP runs at 100 MHz
15:00
15:00:22kkurbjunone extra instruction for 64 bit writes does sound appealing :)
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15:07:15LambdaCalculus37Does the Sansa Fuze have a dual-boot function?
15:08:37*LambdaCalculus37 is playing around with one
15:11:03kkurbjunhmm, it looks like a LDM will do a burst access at least on the arm internal bus
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15:11:35bertrikLambdaCalculus37, yes I think so, hold left or some other button during boot
15:11:46LambdaCalculus37bertrik: Thanks!
15:12:07LambdaCalculus37The Fuze isn't a bad platform!
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15:14:29funmanpromising phone conversation with AMS is promising
15:14:53amiconnkkurbjun: One extra instruction *per pixel*. It'll need 4 swapping instructions for each 2x2 pixel block, i.e. a total of 16 insns for a 4x4 pixel block (8 32bit registers, reading 4x2 registers and writing 4x2 registers)
15:14:55funmani talked 17 minutes with the guy
15:15:08bertriknice to hear
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15:15:14funmanhe insisted on making me sign an NDA, but I talked about past form of datasheet exchange
15:15:48funmani think he would be ok to use the same thing: only an informal promise to not put it on the web (he repeated 3 or 4 times: don't put it on the website)
15:15:58amiconnkkurbjun: Are the fps figures you gave boosted or unboosted?
15:16:08funmanhe's gonna talk again about that with his colleagues and call/mail me again
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15:16:31kkurbjunoh, good point, I think they were all unboosted
15:16:49funmanhe also insisted that we are not 100% sure the sansa clipv2/fuzev2 have a as3531 (even if i have a pretty strong feeling)
15:18:07funmanif he doesn't want, i'll propose 2 things:
15:18:55funman1/ have AMS give us some linux code they use for as3531 (gplv2) and we port it to rockbox. We should check the licence (gplv2 or gplv2+) but this would be a big win
15:19:25funman2/ have interested developers individually sign the NDA (i'm not sure i wouldn't unless there is enough other developers interested)
15:20:09kkurbjunamiconn: in landscape mode I am currently getting 15.2 fps unboosted, 17.8 fps boosted
15:24:37kkurbjunin portrait mode I get 54.5 unboosted, 58.0 boosted
15:26:24kkurbjunamiconn, wouldn't it just be 4 32 bit registers for a 4x4 pixel block?
15:27:34bertrikfunman, ok, sounds good. Even if the can't give the datasheet, they have very little to lose from option 1 so it's a reasonable alternative for them. Personally I think I wouldn't sign an NDA (also I don't have an ams v2 target)
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15:28:56funmanthe biggest thing we'd get from the datasheet is the description of ascodec registers
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15:34:07kkurbjunamiconn: it seems that the proccessor is not so much of the bottleneck, I wonder if the issue is more the latency on the memory interface
15:35:57bertrikfunman, I don't really expect a lot of change in that
15:36:10funmanbertrik: there is enough for incompatibilities
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15:36:25funmanand new power registers (for lcd for example)
15:36:35CIA-61New commit by 03teru (r22437): Change height calculation of viewport for time and date menu so that it doesn't break statusbar.
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15:40:35kkurbjunamiconn, it looks like there is a way to set a buffered region in sdram that the memory controller bursts to and from and then you can set a register to initiate the burst transfer write back. It has a set of 16 bit registers to store the burst. it bursts in 16 word blocks though.. I don't think that there would be enough space to properly use it.. you would need to do a 16x16 rotation
15:43:23kkurbjunhmm, maybe putting an intermediate buffer to store a 16x16 transform in the iram might help... no, that's alot of movement across the ahb though.. it's probably better to just rely on the cache
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15:57:22bertrikamiconn, regarding lcd support for the meizu m6, my gut feeling says I should implement the lcd driver with 16-bit pixels, rather than add support for "32-bit" (0x00RRGGBB) pixels to rockbox
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16:29:06CIA-61New commit by 03kugel (r22438): Move handling of "rockbox_default.[r]wps" into wps.c, out of the skin engine (which should be as generic as possible).
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17:04:50CIA-61New commit by 03teru (r22439): Fix type of variable statusbar in screens.c as global_settings.statusbar is integer.
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17:56:38PaulJamWhat is the policy on flyspray about reporting bugs with features that are in the sourcecode, but deactivated in official builds like the autorock feature.
17:57:14BBBradleyTorne: I figured out what bit to set for SUSP on the LTC4066
17:57:27Tornewhich?
17:57:30Torneand what does it get current down to?
17:58:08BBBradley0 mA
17:58:25Tornewell, which is it?
17:58:59BBBradleyafter testing I will post it back to my original question in the mail list where I asked last week.
17:59:22Torne..can't you tell me which GPIO it is? :)
18:00
18:00:00BBBradleyyes but I need to redo it and verify, it's building
18:00:46BBBradleyit will just take 30 minutes or so
18:00:49Tornei'm not asking for a patch
18:00:55Tornei;m asking which bit of which gpio you toggled
18:00:56Torne:)
18:01:17BBBradleyL
18:01:18Tornei won't be here in 30 minutes :)
18:01:25JdGordonPaulJam: probably good to report them
18:01:31BBBradleytry bit 2 and bit 7
18:01:33PaulJamok
18:01:57BBBradleydisable bit 2, enable bit 7
18:01:59 Nick Zarggg_ is now known as Zarggg (n=zarggg@65.78.69.194)
18:02:28TorneFS #8802 patch already disables bit 2
18:02:47BBBradleyI see
18:04:25 Quit Rob2223 ()
18:05:02TorneEr, I already have bit 7 on and bit 2 off :)
18:05:39TorneGPIOL is B8
18:05:43Torneand it's charging at 500mA
18:05:52Tornewell it would be if ht ebattery wasn't full already
18:06:05Torneoh, no, it is charging. not quite full.
18:07:41Torneso that sounds wrong
18:07:48Torneor at least that those are not the only two bits that matter
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18:39:20BBBradleyDoes Torne: setting those 2 bits does exactly what I need it to do
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18:47:47CIA-61New commit by 03nls (r22440): Make the formatter functions used by the settings return a pointer to avoid usless copying of lang strings, this brought with it a long chain of const ...
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18:55:49JdGordon_n1s: yellow :)
18:56:03n1si sae
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19:03:53CIA-61New commit by 03nls (r22441): fix yellow
19:09:13 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
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19:14:03n1swe're getting so many targets that it really isn't feasible to build even a representative selection of them yourself before every commit
19:14:24n1s...especially on a netbook
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19:24:56kugelthe "delay the database browser progress by 0.5s" thing doesn't quite work anymore
19:30:14saratogawhat is the procedure to tag bootloaders for the YH builds?
19:30:20saratogai'd like to get those posted on the forums
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19:30:39kugelsaratoga: they're not ready yet
19:30:47saratogawhats missing?
19:30:58kugelverbosity and version number
19:31:20kugelthey also break the OF (flipped display)
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19:45:47BBBradleyWhen no music is playing on rockbox does it suspend eventually and turn off after about 15 minutes?
19:46:24JdGordon|yes
19:46:31JdGordon|10min default iirc
19:47:05BBBradleycan it be disabled?
19:48:01JdGordon|yes
19:48:35JdGordon|http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml
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20:26:45TorneBBBradley: What's the value of GPIO L when you are plugged in like that and not drawing any power, then?
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20:32:13amiconnkugel: If the YH bootloaders cause flipped display in the OF, it means that rockbox uses the opposite update direction in the lcd controller. The solution would be to change that
20:33:40kugelI almost expected that
20:34:18kugelthe lcd driver is a 99% copy and paste from the h10 (20gb(?)) though
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20:40:38MG_ManHey, I'm working on a theme, and is 71x71 a reasonable albumart size?
20:40:45MG_ManWould it be better if I made it 72x72 instead?
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20:43:41pamaurygevaerts: can I ask you some question about storage ?
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20:44:08gevaertspamaury: sure. You managed to catch me when I have some time :)
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20:44:27pamaurywhich is a difficult thing :)
20:44:53gevaertsit normally isn't, but I'm in tourist mode these days
20:44:54bertrikMG_Man, I don't think it really matters, but Unhelpful should know for sure
20:45:24MG_ManI was wondering for bot hquality's sake and if it affects performance or not
20:45:26MG_Manboth*
20:45:40MG_ManI wonder because OpenGL has a hard time doing textures that aren't a power of 2
20:45:42pamaurygevaerts: That about MTP, in MTP there is a logical distinction between drives and volumes
20:45:47MG_ManI know this isn't OpenGL, but still
20:46:33pamaurygevaerts: so I would like to know if there is a way 1) to list the volumes in RB 2) to map between drives and volumes (ie which volume belongs to which drive) ?
20:47:05kugelMG_Man: I don't think it matters at all
20:47:35MG_ManOkay then
20:48:05kugelthe only thing that matters is the orig size of the album art (i.e. the scaling factor)
20:48:49gevaertspamaury: the information is there, but it's not really exported right now. Have a look at firmware/common/disk.c, especially the use of the vol_drive[] array
20:48:58MG_ManYeah, that's why I thought 72 or 75 might work better
20:49:10MG_ManI guess I'll just wait and see when I'm done how it all looks
20:49:27pamaurygevaerts: yes I looked at it and saw that it was here :) I just wondered if there was an api but if you say no
20:49:36BdN3504i need some manual help, with things i don't understand. i get funny output when i try to display special characters in examples: http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h272/Mullah15/problems.jpg
20:49:50saratogaif the OF display on the YH is upside down, its probably as easy as just flipping some bit before branching to the OF
20:50:02pixelmaMG_Man: the link to the patchset has been updated on the PluginMidiPlay wiki page, the one on the SoundCodecs page has been overlooked, I'm going to change it but thought I could let you know
20:50:10kugelsaratoga: really? Tell me the bits please! ;)
20:50:23MG_ManThanks
20:50:29gevaertspamaury: not that I remember anyway. If you're going to use it from MTP, I guess we'll need some sort of clean API
20:50:46pamaurygevaerts: I also have another question but which is much more open. In MTP, each object (basically object=file | dir) must be uniquely identified with a handle which is 32bit long. I'm wondering what is best way to achieve this
20:51:37pamaurygevaerts: The main problem is that with only a handle, I must be able to retrieve all the information about the file This includes: parent directory, size, data, metadata, ...
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20:52:23pamaurygevaerts: And also, because of the way MTP works, there are no such thing as "open file" or "close file"
20:52:31pamaurygevaerts: Any idea ?
20:52:36BdN3504the image i posted is the outcome of the following tex input: http://pastie.org/590187
20:52:41Tornewe would need to maintain a DB :)
20:52:45MG_ManHmm
20:52:49MG_ManSeems MIDIs are all quiet too
20:52:56gevaertspamaury: I don't have a real idea right now, except maybe to require using the database if you want MTP
20:52:59MG_ManHowever, I can fix that simply by editing the patches to be louder
20:53:02MG_ManSo it's all good
20:53:25pamaurygevaerts: yes that was what I wanted to talk about :)
20:53:30*pixelma wonders if we really need two place link to the patchset or if one should be replaced by a link to the other page
20:53:31BdN3504i tried everything, using \config{}, \% and % wihtout anyhing, nothing works right. if you know how to code this please help me.
20:53:55pamaurygevaerts: I don't exactly know how the database works, is there an api ? Where is the code ?
20:54:53gevaertsas far as I can see, the main advantage of MTP is better database integration, so requiring the database is not that bad I think
20:55:14gevaertsThe database does have an API, yes, but that's about all I know about it.
20:55:16MG_ManQuestion: What audio format are the patches?
20:55:25MG_ManWait
20:55:31bluebrotherBdN3504: % is the comment symbol, so you definitely need to escape that.
20:55:32MG_ManI have Awave Studio, that can probably do it
20:55:50bluebrotherfurther, \\ is a (hard) newline. Why are you putting that at the end of the line?
20:55:53pixelmaBdN3504: I remember problems with special chars in the verbose environment too (like \example uses) - isn't it already done in the other tag descriptions, e.g. escaping % etc.?
20:55:58MG_ManYep, it can
20:56:00MG_ManOkay
20:56:04pamaurygevaerts: who is the database expert ? :)
20:56:22JdGordon|pamaury: there isnt one who is really active :(
20:56:31bertrikI remember seeing a tag commit id (or something like that) in the database code, currently unused
20:56:32*bluebrother remembers that this is in a verbatim environment
20:56:52pixelmaoh, sorry, wrong word
20:57:05pixelmaverbatim was what I meant ;)
20:57:07pamauryAh... I saw thing in the code about "dircache", it is related to the database or am I completely missing the point ?
20:57:28gevaertspamaury: most of it was written by Slaheri I think, but he isn't very active these days. I do know that kugel has recently been working on database integration in pictureflow, so he probably knows a bit about the API
20:57:29Tornedircache is something else, but may also be able to provide unique ids for files actually
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20:57:57Tornenot immediately, i expect, but with some poking ;)
20:58:02pamaurywhat exactly is dircache ?
20:58:13Torneit's a cache of the contents of every directory on the filesystem
20:58:18BdN3504pixelma: bluebrother: i looked at the code, in which examples are used and most of the time people use \begin{example} plain code without markup \end{example}. so i wonder why my text is fucked.
20:58:20Torneto be able to browse the fs without spinning up the disk
20:58:29gevaertsTorne: not *every*. It';s limited in size...
20:58:51kugelit is?
20:58:51gevaertspamaury: the database is called "tagcache" internally
20:58:53pamauryAh... That's no a good thing.
20:58:55Torneit is? :)
20:59:17gevaertsit isn't?
20:59:21*gevaerts isn't sure
20:59:23JdGordon|gevaerts: *every* file that the browser can get to is in the db... if a folder has too many files it wont be shown anywhere
20:59:32pamauryIf dircache is limited in size, that's embarrassing from my point of view.
20:59:46kugelIt's buffer_alloc'd at start, IIUC it isn't limited (same for tagcache)
20:59:53kugelIIUC/IIRC actually
20:59:54saratogakkugel: the H10 has a lcd_set_flip command
21:00
21:00:10pamauryBut it's limited by the memory...
21:00:34LearIt isn't. It's only limited in the sense that it can't grow that much without a reboot.
21:00:58Torneso that would be a problem if, say, you were adding all your music over mtp to a blank player :)
21:01:09gevaertsisn't dircache disabled anyway on flash targets?
21:01:10pamauryHow can't it be limited by the memory ? Isn't it loaded at boot time ?
21:01:21*gevaerts would use tagcache, not dircache
21:01:24kugelgevaerts: no
21:01:27saratogakugel: its implemented for the YH925 too but i don't know if it works
21:01:36Tornegevaerts: well yes, it was just a thought
21:01:41kugelI don't have the lcd flip option
21:01:43Leargevaerts: Nope. Some parts of tagcache need it.
21:01:46Tornepamaury: it's unlikely to run out of memory
21:02:10Tornepamaury: the dircache for my 60GB music collection is under a meg
21:02:12pixelmaBdN3504: I see a lot escaping the % - so \%
21:02:25*gevaerts decides to shut up. He's been proven wrong too many times now
21:02:38pamauryAnd is dircache available on every target ?
21:02:43kugelno
21:02:51Tornealso as we discussed a while ago there are reasons to avoid 'spinups' on flash as well, they still bring the flash out of idle which costs power
21:02:56bluebrotherBdN3504: you need to put exactly 4 spaces in front of the example text
21:03:04BdN3504ahhhhh
21:03:11bluebrother(see the example environment definition in preamble.tex)
21:03:14Tornepamaury: you want to be using the tagcache. sorry. it was just a random thought.
21:03:15kugelTorne: it definitely gives a speed up also, comparing my e200 to my fuze
21:03:21BdN3504thanks a lot
21:03:33pixelmaLear: tagcache doesn't need dircache but it helps speeding things up
21:03:35Tornekugel: well that's not surprising, flash might be zero seek but it's still slower than SDRAM :)
21:04:12pamauryOk, can someone tell which files I should look at for tagcache ?
21:04:32kugeltagcache.[ch]
21:04:41Learpixelma: It did require it for something, but that may have changed, yes...
21:05:49pixelmaauto-update I believe that was
21:05:51pamauryI'm not an expert but for now, if I want to code MTP, it has to be the firmware to have access to usb. Is tagcache available from the firmware ? [sorry if my question seems stupid]
21:06:18TorneNo. This is going to need a firmware->app call :)
21:06:27Torne*somewhere*, anyway
21:06:37n1sthe firmware == rockbox?
21:06:54Tornen1s: firmware as in the directory in the source
21:06:59n1sah
21:07:17n1swhy does it need to be done there?
21:07:22pamauryAnd is the tagcache directory oriented or it is just a plain list ?
21:07:37gevaertsit's going to require bending the rules a tiny bit, yes, at least until we do USB drivers as plugins
21:07:40Tornepamaury: it's a db indexed by various properties of the file's tags.
21:07:50Tornepamaury: it is not in any way arranged by disk location
21:08:13pamauryHum, ...
21:08:17n1syeah, it stores various metadata and the path to the file
21:08:19Tornen1s: because usb drivers are in firmware atm
21:08:28kugelIIUC it's just the main index file + 1 tag specific index file loaded into ram
21:09:21pamaurySo with tagcache it's impossible to browse the filesystem in the "normal" way ?
21:09:32Tornenot using th tagcache, no
21:09:41Torneyou can still browse the filesystem, by ignoring the tagcache.
21:09:44kugeltagcache is really just the music database cached
21:09:59JdGordon|tagcache *is* the music database
21:10:02n1ss/cached//
21:10:13kugel:S
21:10:22Torneif you really care about the disk locations of stuff for MTP, then maybe it *does* want to be based on dircache after all
21:10:39pamaurySo with MTP, the dircache seems better if I want to export the whole filesystem
21:10:53kugelyes definitely
21:11:06pamauryBut It's not mandatory
21:11:09*Torne doesn't actually have any idea how MTP works so should probably read that sometime :)
21:11:41pamauryMTP doesn't require to export the whole FS, nor it requires to export it in a hierarchical way
21:11:56pamauryIf I want, I can only export music, which is sensical anyway
21:12:27pamaury(And quite practical with tagcache, since MTP has some kind of db requests)
21:12:39Torneanyway dircache or tagcache is probably the way, depending how you want to do it. both of those would allow *some* way to identify files/tracks with an ID of some kind.
21:13:46gevaertsor implement ext2 support, and use inodes
21:13:48*gevaerts runs away
21:14:00pamaurygevaerts: I though about it :
21:14:02TorneThat doesn't help
21:14:09Torneinodes identify files but not directory entries
21:14:13JdGordon|well, with mtp wouldnt it open the logical door to more file systems :
21:14:15JdGordon|:)
21:14:19Torneyou would have to scan the entire fs to find the directory entries for them ;)
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21:15:41pamauryI'm puzzled, on the one hand, tagcache seems to be a good way to export ONLY the music and on the other hand dircache seems to be a good to export the whole fs but with a more complicated code I think
21:16:04pamauryI would need a dirtagcache :)
21:16:08gevaertsHow stable do these numbers need to be?
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21:16:28Tornei was assuming only for one USB connection
21:16:46JdGordon|I think db is the better way to do it
21:16:50pamaurystable accross a session. Most softwares open a session on opening and close a session on closing... :)
21:17:05JdGordon|dircache is not always compiled and even when it is, its off by default isnt it?
21:17:19Torneindeed
21:17:26Tornepeoplel wanting to use mtp would have to turn it on
21:17:34Torneor the same for tagcache.
21:17:58JdGordon|dircache works with low mem targets though so i think is always compiled in
21:18:39kugelwrong
21:19:06kugelonly if MEMORYSIZE > 8
21:19:36kugelpamaury: do you need something in RAM?
21:19:55Tornei suspect it would get slow real quick if it wasn't
21:20:06JdGordon|sorry.. i meant the db there not dircache
21:20:07kugeldircache is really a cache, tagcache is just a bad name (it's not a in-ram-cache)
21:20:27pamauryFor now, only a few thing that are statics and I believe It won't require RAM expect for this handle problem...
21:21:41kugelhowever, the tagcache has a cache too (tc_ram_cache or whatever it's called)
21:22:35Tornewell, the tagcache is still a cache even when it's not in ram. it's a cache of the results of parsing metadata on each file
21:24:17pamauryIs it slow ?
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21:26:31Torneanyone wanna comment on/commit FS #10414 (supporting bzr in version.sh)
21:26:34Torne;)
21:26:40TorneGetting fed up with patching it into branches
21:27:59pamauryI think I will have to choose wether to export the whole fs or not because it changes everything. What do you think is best ? To me it's more sensical to export music though MTP because it's designed for that.
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21:28:55TornePeople might well want the full fs as well though
21:29:07Torneespecially if we ever go with supporting other FSes
21:29:26TorneI dunno really, never used an MTP device or really read much about it
21:30:04pamauryWe can still have to MTP modes :)
21:30:08pamaury* two
21:31:12CIA-61New commit by 03kugel (r22442): Fix displaying of the database browser's progress splash so that it works as intended (according to r16432: hide until 0.5s have passed, but never if ...
21:31:15martian67_ugh MTP
21:32:18domonokycouldnt we try to compute a (nearly) unique id (hash sum or alike) from a filename/path and use that as ID ?
21:32:54pamauryAnd how do you retrieve the parent of a file from it's ID ?
21:33:01pamauryOr it's metadata ?
21:33:12JdGordon|pamaury: definetly leave it music only for now at least
21:33:13pamaurySorry I'm stupid...
21:33:24Tornedomonoky: that's a bit of a one way function, no?
21:33:32JdGordon|if people want the full fs they should use msc
21:33:45kugelhmm, this is not what I wanted to commit
21:34:01domonokyhm, to be usefull it has to be a two-way function... that gets complicated :-)
21:34:15pamauryClearly yes, it has to be bijective
21:34:43Tornedomonoky: if you were just going to make IDs up and remember them somewhere there are a vast number of schemes you could use, but reusing one we already have would be better :)
21:34:52domonokyif we dont need playback while doing MTP we could just build a big index in ram at start of MTP :-)
21:35:21pamauryYes I tought about it but it's it slow to seek the whole fs ?
21:35:26Tornedircache already does that for you at boot though if it's turned on :)
21:35:27pamaury*thought
21:35:46kugelahh I was looking at the wrong diff :p
21:35:46domonokywith dircache the index build-up should be fast.
21:36:00pamaurydircache is probably a good thing, I *only* need a way to map between dircache and IDS
21:36:04Tornewith dircache we already have an index
21:36:32Torneor a similar enough data structure to one anyway
21:36:45pamauryBut in dircache there are no files of course ?
21:36:53domonokyusing its own map has the benefit of also working without dircache, although without dircache it will be slower.
21:37:07Tornepamaury: the dircache contains the contents of every directory
21:37:10Torneso yes, it includes all files
21:39:55pamauryI think I need more information about the way MTP software works. I don't exactly know how they list songs on a device.
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21:41:41kugeldo we really want mtp? I, for myself, don't
21:42:03Tornesome people want mtp, it seems. and mtp lets you get rid of MSC :)
21:42:18Torne(block devices suck)
21:43:36domonokyif we can get MTP why not ? and it allows for some nice things.. (like using rockbox while doing MTP)
21:43:38pamauryWell MTP is not really cleverly designed in my opinion. For example, you can only retrieve a whole file at a time and as it does not requires folders, it has an overpowerful function to get lists of objects
21:44:56BdN3504do bitmap target also use rgb888 for colour definitions in the viewport declaration?
21:46:34saratogaisn't MTP just a database interface? couldn't you have a folder field in your database?
21:47:06BdN3504is ipod 4g grayscale a bitmap target, if so, you don't have to answer my last question
21:47:11BdN3504?
21:47:35pamauryBasically yes, MTP is an interface around a database request
21:47:47bluebrotherBdN3504: all targets except the archos player are bitmap targets.
21:47:51pixelma greyscale targets use 0, 1, 2, 3 instead for the 4 different "greys", monochrome doesn't use those definitions. It is explained on the CustomWPS page
21:48:10pixelmaplus what bluebrother said
21:48:41BdN3504thank you again
21:51:46BdN3504can i refer to greyscale targets using \opt{masf} ?
21:52:00kugelno
21:52:16BdN3504what do i have to use then?
21:52:17pixelmaalthough I would spell it Player to make clear it is only that one model, the other supported Archoses like the Ondios or Recorders are bitmap as well
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21:55:11pixelmaI'd use a combination of lcd_non-mono and lcd_color
21:56:15BdN3504pixelma: would \nopt{player,lcd_color} also work?
21:56:41pixelmathat would include the monochrome bitmap screens
21:57:06pixelmaother Archoses, the Clip, m200 etc.
21:57:14BdN3504ah ok
22:00
22:02:05BdN3504the clip is a monochrome bitmapscreen?
22:02:27BdN3504oops yes it is
22:02:36BdN3504i confused it with c200
22:03:31bluebrotherBdN3504: you can't use multiple options in \opt or \nopt
22:04:32pixelmahmm? I wasn't sure about the \nopt but in \opt it is used everywhere
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22:04:41bluebrothersorry, slightly wrong. It works for \opt
22:05:03*pixelma blames the weather ;)
22:05:05bluebrother\nopt simply inverses that by using a global variable. It might break on that.
22:05:14MG_ManAnother aesthetics question
22:05:26*bluebrother blames the weather too ;)
22:05:34MG_ManIf the titles are TItele over Album over Artist, should the Artist come second or last?
22:05:37MG_Mantitle*
22:06:09MG_ManI guess the bitmap assets are done, time to start coding the theme
22:06:55*bluebrother wonders if it would make sense to scrap all those \opt stuff and use the preprocessor instead −− we need it for features.txt anyway
22:06:56pixelmabluebrother: I'd probably nest it like: \opt{lcd_non-mono}{\nopt{lcd_color}{blah}}
22:07:24bluebrotheris there no lcd_greyscale like thing?
22:07:44pixelmano, not for the languages' feature text
22:07:56bluebrotherhmm.
22:08:00pixelmafeatures.txt
22:09:06pixelmaI wouldn't want to stuff things into that one which will then only be used in the manual but every now and then the topic comes up to add features just for the manual...
22:13:18pixelmabluebrother: so you think using the preprocessor is possible? Reminds me of the other problem - is it possible to use something like "#if LCD_HEIGHT > 64" etc., that could make some selections a lot easier
22:13:33***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:13:49*pixelma adds a "possible"
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22:15:19bluebrotherpixelma: well, we currently parse features.txt to create an input file. I don't think it would be a problem to replace the copy-tex-files-to-build-folder with a preprocess-tex-files-into-build-folder
22:15:35bluebrotherthough I guess it would be a bit of work to replace all that \opt stuff.
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22:18:31BdN3504the default font in the wps is "0", right? so the system font. on the wiki its says default font is user font, wrong?
22:19:05bluebrotherwhy should the wps default to anything else than the user font?
22:19:39kugelBdN3504: 0 is the small system font, 1 is the user font. anything else will fallback to 1
22:19:44JdGordon|default should be the user font...
22:21:02BdN3504ok learned something again
22:21:21kugelhm, scrollbar on the left is quite nice, but I miss the offset of the items a bit
22:21:44kugelon the right*
22:22:15JdGordon|you could add an offset pretty easily :)
22:22:27JdGordon|user definable viewports for everything!
22:22:57kugelI'm thinking the title could be shifted to the right a bit
22:24:41kugelor give it a different color! ;)
22:25:16*kugel has another mockup for custom statusbar, using 2 viewports and the list between
22:26:20MG_ManWell, while we're on topic of how a WIP theme looks
22:27:19MG_ManAny suggestions for this?
22:27:21MG_Manhttp://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8733/rboxwinamp1.png
22:28:16JdGordon|nice
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22:30:38CIA-61New commit by 03kugel (r22443): Enable dircache for targets with 8MB RAM too (AMS Sansas, modded Archoses).
22:31:03MG_ManIt's basically this, ported to iPod Photo/Iriver H300
22:31:05MG_Manhttp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/2192/winampj.png
22:31:15MG_Manand changed to be more intuitive for a handheld player
22:31:21kugellooks damn copyright-questionable ;)
22:31:35MG_ManWell, wouldn't the ipod ripoff ones be too? :P
22:31:39BdN3504there already were some winamp skins which have been removed for that reason
22:31:44MG_Manah
22:31:51*Hillshum wonders what the point of dircache on a flash target
22:32:03MG_ManI see, I guess I'll just keep it for my own use then
22:32:34HillshumMG_Man: I think alot depends on whether the images are lifted off the copyrighted thing or if they just look like it
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22:34:59BdN3504true, if you can provide the sources for the images you use, i.e. photoshop psd files or .xcf or whatever graphics processor you used, then you can release
22:35:21kugel32k?!
22:36:23JdGordon|dircache has a 32K stack...
22:36:24kugelI'm impressed that a feature that needs to buffer_alloc() costs 32k alone
22:36:37JdGordon|its not buffer_alloced()
22:36:44JdGordon|the stack isnt anyway
22:37:07kugelbut the rest is
22:37:11JdGordon|yes
22:37:18kugelI wasn't aware of that giant stack
22:37:38JdGordon|10k of code though!
22:38:21*JdGordon| doesnt see why dircache is compiled in for flash targets
22:38:41kugelI do
22:38:42Tornebecause it's faster?
22:38:53JdGordon|is it?
22:38:54 Quit bubsy ("I'll be back somewhere in time...")
22:38:54kugelI'm tired of using my fuze without
22:39:03kugelit's faster and saves battery
22:39:04pixelmato speed things up for auto-update
22:39:11JdGordon|the fuzes flash is that slow?!
22:39:14Torneram is faster than flash
22:39:55kugelpreventing the flash from waking up just for browsing is worth it alone, imo
22:40:09pixelmaI never enabled it on my c200 and was never annoyed that something would take too long
22:40:23kugelit doesn't take long
22:40:30kugelbut it takes noticeably longer
22:40:56kugelI've never used my e200 without dircache, and I've never used my fuze with dircache. I know the difference
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22:41:26pixelmathat's a weird statement
22:41:33kugelthe c200 has so plenty of ram I'd just turn it on for the fun of it :)
22:41:53kugelwhat is weird on that statement?
22:42:15pixelmaif you never used it without, how can you know the differnce, I mean especially how it feels if you use it?
22:42:45kugelread again, I've never used my fuze with dircache
22:43:29saratoganot powering up the flash is worth plenty of memory on flash targets
22:44:14pixelmayou'll know about the facts but not how noticable it is in everyday use. kugel, I read it again and you said you never used it on your e200 as woll
22:44:17saratogaalthough i don't understand why such a large stack is needed
22:44:18pixelmawell
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22:44:36kugelpixelma: I've never used my e200 without dircache
22:44:49bluebrotheryou compare apples with mashed bananas. So you know the difference. Huh?
22:45:08BdN3504how do i correctly use several opts in an example? i tried "\begin{example}[nl]\opt{somethin}[nl][four spaces]code[nl]}%[nl]\opt etc. [nl]\end{esample}" ???
22:45:27*bluebrother has never used any flash target with dircache and never noticed it being slow without
22:45:39pixelmasorry that's what I meant, you only used them with dircache
22:45:43kugelI said it's not slow, but still slower
22:45:47pixelmaso you only know one side
22:45:57bluebrotherfor a noticable difference, how about trying a hdd based target? *That's* noticable
22:46:00kugelpixelma: I used the one with dircache, the other without
22:46:06BdN3504*esample=example
22:46:07kugelread again ;)
22:46:22saratogathis argument is stupid, dircache should be enabled on flash targets regardless of performance
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22:46:52pixelmakugel: but there might be differences in Fuze vs. e200
22:46:54bluebrotherBdN3504: I don't think you can use \opt inside of an example environment. Does it work in any way?
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22:47:27pixelmasaratoga: but then you have to power up the flash a little more often for buffering
22:47:34bluebrothersaratoga: why should dircache be enabled on flash targets? Just it's because an amount faster most users won't notice?
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22:47:58kugelbluebrother: don't claim stuff you didn't even test out please
22:48:12pixelmaso depending on how you use it (browsing vs. playback) the runtime might not be very different
22:48:41saratogapixelma: it would be extremely difficult to make it worse so i don't really see the argument here
22:49:00bluebrotherkugel: who says I haven't tried dircache on a flash based target? There's a difference between *using* and *trying*
22:49:23kugelah, nice excuse
22:49:48pixelmadepends on the amount of RAM, might already be interesting for 8MB targets
22:49:53BdN3504pixelma: it has but it also displayed a % at the end. i don't know how i did it though. i am trying again now, see if it works
22:50:00gurnarokWhere does the iPod Classic fall? I didn't see it in TargetStatus
22:50:35bluebrotherkugel: and how do you know this is an excuse? Sorry, but this is childish
22:50:42kugelok
22:50:48pixelmakugel: bit comparing Fuze without dircache and e200 with is better thing to do?
22:52:00*kugel agrees with saratoga
22:52:04pixelma*but
22:52:13bluebrotherand to make you happy: I just tried it _again_, on e200. Having dircache anabled doesn't make a difference _I_ can feel, at least with my configuration. It might make a difference with 1000 files per folder, which I don't have. Though you didn't tell anything about the test environment ...
22:52:25BdN3504oops that was meant for bluebrother, sorry pixelma
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22:58:19ZagorJdGordon: awake?
22:58:45amiconnkugel: If the colour YH's use a cloned H20 lcd driver, that means they're using the HD66789R lcd controller, which is documented
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22:59:23amiconnFlipping the update direction should be easy, taking into account that there are several other targets also using that controller (e.g. H300)
22:59:32kugelI'll give it a try
22:59:45amiconnWth? Dircache for flash targets? What a waste...
23:00
23:00:05kugelwhich reminds me, why isn't there a single driver? I wondered that a while back when I noticed they're basically all the same
23:00:26amiconnI just gave you one reason....
23:00:43amiconnIt's always the same controller, but parameters differ by target
23:00:59kugelwhere did you give me that reason?
23:01:25kugelthe parameters could be #defines or whatever. From what I remember 95% of the code was duplicated
23:01:48amiconnDifferent panel used, wired in a different way so that update direction differs, different hookup (1/8/9/16/18 bit interface) allowing for different optimisation
23:02:05 Quit Omlet ()
23:02:25amiconn...different CPU architecture, DMA versus PIO transfers, and even portrait vs. landscape
23:02:39JdGordon|Zagor: they might not like me sleeping at this hour :)
23:03:18MG_ManOkay
23:03:27MG_ManI guess I'll just make it from scratch with the same layout
23:03:30ZagorJdGordon|: australia is falling over
23:03:50kugelamiconn: how fast is that controller? I don't think it's optimized in any way on the YHs, but it's horrible slow (going by test_fps)
23:04:14amiconnIt depends on the interface
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23:04:21kugelwell, not horrible, the UI is smooth enough
23:04:35BdN3504k, i haven't been able to reproduce what i had. how can i diplay examples optionally
23:04:45BdN3504?
23:04:47JdGordon|Zagor: bah, whats the issue? or i need to ssh in to find out?
23:04:59amiconnHave a look at the H300 fps figures - they're close to the possible maximum for 16 bit interface
23:05:15ZagorJdGordon|: It connects, and then falls away after 10 seconds. continously.
23:06:55 Quit bmbl ("Bye!")
23:07:57pixelmaBdN3504: you probably have to put the example into the \opts - a complete example for each version (so duplicating or triple some things)
23:07:58kugelBdN3504: what do you mean by optinally?
23:08:12JdGordon|Zagor: ok, ill give it a quick look now, otherwise ill kill it untill i get more of a chance to see what the issue is
23:10:02JdGordon|Zagor : "2009-08-21 07:07:09 HELLO failed: error duplicate name!"
23:10:05BdN3504ok guys, i think i have it now
23:10:26kugelgrr
23:10:29ZagorJdGordon|: yes that sometime happens, but you don't get that always do you?
23:10:31BdN3504no i don't
23:10:42kugelthe lang dependency problem is *greatly* annoying
23:10:52JdGordon|Zagor: I dont think I;ve seen this before..
23:10:52kugelcan't someone look into it please? :(
23:11:05 Quit flydutch ("/* empty */")
23:11:24JdGordon|^c apparently kills screen
23:11:33JdGordon|should I change its name and start it again?
23:11:51amiconnThe e200 series also uses that controller, but the e200 (v1) speed seems to exceed the controller specs. This is probably due to the fact that the e200 uses a a memory mirror of the lcd framebuffer, sent via dma. The measured lcd_update() speed is actually memcpy()ing speed
23:11:59pixelmaZagor, JdGordon|: I also had this the first time today (well except when it broke due to some Zagor experiments)
23:12:13ZagorJdGordon|: do you get duplicate name every connect?
23:12:23JdGordon|just restarted it and it seems ok
23:12:40Zagoryup, looks fine now
23:12:56Zagorstrange bug
23:13:13Zagorpixelma: what happened for you?
23:13:13JdGordon|I have (or should have) a static ip so its probably not something like me falling off the net
23:13:36kugelamiconn: ah, I already wondered about the e200 being exceptionally high
23:14:35pixelmaZagor: the duplicate name error
23:14:58Zagorpixelma: every connect, in a loop?
23:15:06pixelmayes
23:15:15pixelmarestarting the client helped
23:15:17Zagorwhen was this?
23:15:32pixelmaI noticed earlier this evening
23:16:16kugelZagor: do you have any idea of it (the lang dependency problem)?
23:16:34Zagorkugel: huh? I haven't followed the issue.
23:16:48pixelmathe VM was probably started around 8 PM
23:17:10kugelchange something in config.h or so, after that you can delete your build dir because it won't compile
23:17:55Zagorpixelma: it looks just like australia in the log. disconnects after 10 seconds. only maybe one in 30 says "duplicate name"
23:18:03BBBradleycan someone give a %mv command example for the WPS? I want to see how an image or text can be displayed when the volume is being changed
23:18:06Zagordoes it really say that for _every_ connect in your log?
23:19:16kugelBBBradley: %?mv<%xdA|%xdB|%xdC>
23:19:34BBBradleythanks!
23:19:51kugelchoose as many images as you want, it will scale the volume onto the number of pictures IIUC
23:20:00pixelmaZagor: not sure where I could look it up, now that I killed the terminal (and for some reason ctrl-c didn't work), it looked like it happened on every conect
23:20:10BBBradleyI want the volume bar to pop up when I change it and then disappear
23:20:20Zagorpixelma: can you look in rbclient.log ?
23:20:48pixelmakugel: %?mv has three states?
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23:21:28kugelpixelma: I think it has as many states as you choose images (which is what I tried to describe in my above statement). Is that wrong?
23:21:41Zagorkugel: can you be more specific? change what? I need to reproduce it to fix it.
23:21:50JdGordon|%mv only has 2 states...
23:22:05JdGordon|thats the volume button tag isnt it?
23:22:20JdGordon|kkurbjun: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=22544.0
23:22:25kugelZagor: for example my previous commit. I activated HAVE_DIRCACHE. Now it my local build craps out in settings_list.c
23:22:56kugelZagor: this is the log: http://pastie.org/590399
23:23:16kugelsettings_list.c is recompiled due to the change, but the langs aren't re-generated
23:23:25kugelhence the LANG_* is unknown
23:24:02pixelma%?mv is the "volume changes tag" and has only two states
23:24:10kugelJdGordon|, BBBradley: oh sorry, ignore me, I mixed it up
23:24:33Zagorkugel: aha. lang.h does not depend properly on config*.h
23:24:58kugelI inserted "#include "config.h"" into lang.h manually, but it doesn'T seem to help
23:25:25kugelbut that probably can't work if it's not in make.dep somwhow too, right?
23:25:25Zagordid you recreate the dependency list?
23:25:31Zagorexactly
23:26:22kugelsame problem after make dep
23:27:11kugeltouch config.h to make sure doesn't help
23:28:11kugelso you should be able to reproduce it easily by building r22442 for the fuze, then svn up and build again
23:28:32ZagorI can repeat it, thanks
23:34:46pixelmaZagor: yes, the duplicate error happened on every connect trial, every 10 seconds for about 6 hours altogether - but I had the computer switched off in between and the VM counts on from the last known state. It's probably not what you could see (maybe about 4 hours last night and 2 more this evening or so
23:35:22pixelmalaptop was on during the whole night I think, fell asleep without turning it off ;)
23:35:45Zagorpixelma: was this satellite?
23:35:51pixelmayes
23:37:39Zagortoday the server has seen 2078 disconnects from satellite-pixelma, but only 71 duplicate names
23:38:28Zagoranyway, the strange connect/disconnect loop is what needs to be found and fixed
23:38:53Zagordoes the log say anything out of the ordinary before the loop begins?
23:39:28kugelBBBradley: seems you cannot see %mv in action currently :)
23:39:52kugelFS #10549 (/me pokes JdGordon| but he has probably seen it already)
23:40:12JdGordon|would that eb the one I assingmed to myself already?
23:40:55JdGordon|I wonder when that broke though... the recent changes shouldnt have affected that
23:41:45BBBradley kugel I havent got it working yet
23:42:21kugelJdGordon|: I suspect your buffering magic
23:43:34kugelthe magic you didn't really explain why it is needed to us before committing
23:43:40kugel(hopes that sentence made sense=
23:43:41kugel)
23:44:00JdGordon|it makes as much sense as saying the sky is blue because i put a $2 coin in the coke machine
23:44:23JdGordon|it probably broke at the very start of all the wps->skin stuff
23:45:08kugelI mean, two people were asking what the complex buffer system is needed for, but you didn't explain
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23:45:18JdGordon|and I'm still open to suggestions if you can come up with a cleaner solution... but there isnt one
23:45:52JdGordon|AND.. it works, and it works very well... so who cares on the reasoning?
23:46:29kugelZagor: I don't think depending on "config.h" is enough for the lang files generated at compiling, unless they can force genlang to be executed again
23:46:41amiconnkugel: Btw, the activation of dircache for the 8MB archoses is a bad idea. Those will need special voice files now
23:46:50 Quit petur ("Zzzz")
23:46:53Zagorkugel: no it isn't. I'm looking at it now.
23:47:28kugelamiconn: so worse that reverting is better for the archos?
23:47:55amiconnI don't know how many 8MB modded archoses there are.
23:48:09kugelI'm thinking dircache helps it a lot also. I guess dircache it would be even worth making that mod if I had one
23:48:10amiconnIt's about the only build we're offering for a modded target
23:48:26amiconnSome other mods have the same problem though (e.g. M5 FM mod)
23:48:42JdGordon|amiconn: I agree, but I tinhk for that mod its reasonable to assume that the person has the ability to do his own builds...
23:48:54kugelI think separate voices aren't so since there's already a separate build
23:49:00kugelnot so bad*
23:49:06amiconnSo if we continue offering the 8MB build, we should also provide the necessary voice file
23:49:31amiconn(.lng are automatic since they're included)
23:49:52kugelJdGordon|: still beating about the bush
23:50:27pixelmaZagor: just that it started after a "Server socket disconnected! Cleanup and restart."
23:50:51amiconnHmm, and what about the manual?
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23:51:56kugeljust include the dircache passage everytimes and tell that it's only available if you modded it
23:52:04kugels/everytimes/always/
23:52:44pixelmaif everything is in the correct \opts then an 8MB Recorder manual would also only need an own build
23:53:20BBBradleykugel: I tried this %?mv<%xdVa|%xdVb|%xdVc|%xdVd|%xdVe|%xdVf|%xdVg|%xdVh|%xdVi> with my 9 level volume - it disappears when you use it and appears when you stop changing it - opposite of what I need!
23:53:24amiconnImo we should rethink the lang/voice id assignment so that the same string has the same id on all targets, but without the ram+binsize waste of the old solution
23:53:59amiconnThen at least a wrong voice file wouldn't do harm - just the ids which aren't present wouldn't be spoken
23:54:00kugelBBBradley: %mv is for volume changing, %pv is for volume in general
23:54:29domonokyamiconn: that would be a big improvement to the voice system. also some versionining would be nice :-)
23:54:42kugelpixelma: I'm thinking a seperate manual just for dircache is avoidable
23:54:46amiconndomonoky: There is a versioning system - just it's rarely bumped...
23:54:59amiconnRight now you get a royal mess - everything after an inserted or deleted id gets mixed up
23:55:22pixelmaBBBradley: %?mv<%?pv<your|images|here>|what happens if you don't change volume>
23:55:29domonokyamiconn: the versioning needs to be somehow coupled with english.lang so it bumps automatically. :-)
23:55:45BBBradleypixelma thanks !
23:55:55JdGordon|kugel: !?
23:56:17kugelyou still didn't tell me why you've chosen this layout
23:56:25amiconndomonoky: With fixed ids we won't need frequent version bumping
23:56:42pixelmakugel: just saying that it would not be a problem currently - and if you start offering seperate voices that would be consistent
23:56:53amiconnThe idea is that an id that gets assigned won't be deleted again, even if it's deprecated
23:56:58kugelthat's true
23:57:14domonokyyes, fixed ids would lessen the need for it. but it would still be nice to able to detect when the voicefile is outof date.
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23:57:33amiconnOnly if we decide to clean up the ids then the voice (and lng) version needs to be bumped
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23:58:07amiconnThat's why an empty ids should cause as little overhead as possible (ideally none)
23:58:13JdGordon|kugel: I've explained it at least twice.. and in the code... its amazingly efficient for what we need... it uses excatly as much RAM as needed, doesnt make displaying any slower... and is actually really simple
23:58:26domonokyamiconn: if we add strings, the version also should be bumped (maybe have a minor and a major version?)
23:58:31pixelmakugel: I also think that your solution doesn't work well with passages longer than one or two pages, people forget ;)

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