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#rockbox log for 2009-09-03

00:04:04JdGordon|saratoga: you forgot the required ml keywords to get a proper discussion
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00:12:57 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
00:13:47UnhelpfulJPEG AA should only need on the order 60KiB + target size for decode in the worst case for 480x480 target display size
00:13:56Unhelpfuland the decoder is ~10-16KiB?
00:15:22Unhelpfuland ~2-4 to have the scaler itself
00:17:40 Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:18:15JdGordon|target size being the output space needed for the image?
00:18:19JdGordon|thats still a fair chunk for the clip
00:18:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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00:19:05UnhelpfulJdGordon: the clip can't do anything useful with AA in core, it's mono...
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00:23:21JdGordon|but its apparently still compiled in?
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00:28:25UnhelpfulJdGordon: is it? i'm a bit surprised if AA or JPEG or BMP scaling are enabled on a mono target. you don't mean the pluginlib includes of the loaders and scaler, do you?
00:28:51JdGordon|I havnt looked at the code at all... just going by what funman said earlier
00:29:49JdGordon|an hour ago...
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00:32:35funmanUnhelpful: doesn't jpeg AA need to load the whole file?
00:33:25funmanUnhelpful: I had trouble with AA only with the color c200v2, I only used AA on the Clip with PF, not with a WPS ;)
00:34:12JdGordon|funman: so the playback issue you found isnt the same one on the clip?
00:34:34funmanI found 1 more issue on the c200v2
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01:17:02Unhelpfulfunman: it needs to load a stripe up to 16px tall, potentially up to targetwidth *2px wide. the jpeg decoder state is about 9KB. the scaler takes 36*width bytes of scratch space.
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01:23:46Unhelpful"have to load the whole thing" *would* be a requirement for handling multiscan jpeg, and for some cases we'd probably need to store those intermediates at 16, and possibly other data for each pixel or at least each block.
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02:18:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:34:15rphillipsi'm trying a current build (today) on my 5th gen ipod video... Is there a way to charge it and navigate the menus? Right now I can plug it in via USB to charge but only get the rockbox USB plug icon on the ipod
05:38:48n1syou can hold a button when plugging it in to only charge, IIRC it's Menu but the manual knows for sure
05:39:05rphillipsok. thanks
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09:54:13pcc1pamaury: I was thinking about how to represent a device path as a 32-bit integer (for the object IDs)
09:55:15pamauryyes ? (you mean without tagcache ?)
09:56:48pcc1yes
09:57:09pcc1the plan involves exploiting fat cluster numbers
09:57:46pcc1you can't use the cluster number of the file as you need the metadata, so use the cluster number of the directory
09:57:50pamauryI thought about it but there is a problem with this solution if it's similar to my idea
09:58:17pcc1...combined with the index into the directory
09:58:20pamauryBecause, to identify a file you: the directoru cluster AND the entry
09:58:39pamauryBut a cluster index is already 32-bit long so how do you encore the entry nr ?
09:59:33pcc1yes. one solution is a lookup table of cluster IDs -> clusters
09:59:55pcc1this would break if the user has more than x directories
10:00
10:02:27pamauryAnd the table could be huge. The thing is that there can't be more files&directories than clusters but it's difficult to use this fact without a table
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10:03:02cormieHi everyone, is this the rockbox chat room?
10:03:51pcc1the solution may involve storing part of the table on disk
10:04:59cormieDoes anyone know how I can go about installing rockbox on a 240gb ipod? I've tried using the rockbox installer but it gives an error and I'm lost as to what to do next
10:06:02pamaurypcc1: Yes, it could be possible to do some disk storing just like tagcache does. But then, it would require to scan the whole disk just for MTP. And it would not be efficient for SD cards for example
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10:09:21pcc1we wouldn't necessarily need to scan the whole disk at the start - we can create the table as we go
10:09:46pcc1and delete the file at the end of the session
10:12:55pcc1we can use an associative cache design to split the file into zones to avoid leaking cluster IDs
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10:22:44cormieWould anyone be able to advise me on installing rockbox on a 240GB iPod 5.5gen please? :)
10:24:09advcomp2019cormie, this is a bad time because most people are asleep or working
10:24:20amiconnpamaury: A FAT32 cluster number is 28 bits
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10:25:54cormiethanks advcomp2019, I'm in Ireland so it's morning here, I guess most users here are based in US so probably not the best time alright :) What would be a busy time here usually can you tell me please?
10:26:07pamauryAh yes you're right but the 4 remained bits are not enought.
10:28:54advcomp2019cormie, in my opinion, about 6 to 8 hours but you hang out here and someone might reply to you if you want
10:31:12pcc1pamaury: what do you think of the set associative cache idea?
10:32:12pamauryCan you explain this more ?
10:32:21pamauryYou want to cache thing in memory ?
10:33:06pcc1no, the mapping exists on disk, but it uses a design based on set associative cache
10:33:23pcc1so: say you want to look up object id 0x12345678
10:34:41pcc1look in the zone 12 for key: 3456
10:34:59pamauryAnd what is a zone ?
10:35:34pcc1there are (say) 256 zones, corresponding to the high 8 bits of the object id
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10:35:43cormiethanks again advcomp2019, think I'll pop back later :) take care!
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10:36:37pcc1they also are used to split up cluster numbers so 0x12 reflects the 0x12 th 'slice' of cluster numbers out of 256 slices
10:37:11pcc1so, you find the key, with associated value: the cluster number
10:37:26pcc1then look up entry 0x78 in that cluster
10:37:46pamauryThat seems complicated and uses a disk file no ?
10:38:04pcc1I can't see a way around that
10:38:21pamauryI have another idea. In fact, we have two thing to represent: directories and files. Directories are only represented by their first cluster id. With this, we can access they parent and children, ... For files, we could also use their first cluster and use a memory table (a hash table probably) that associated to each file the cluster idea of its parent.
10:38:59pamauryThis way, we have a table of size 2*sizeof(cluster_id)*nb_diffrent_files_asked_by_host <= 2*sizeof(cluster_id)*nb_files_on_disk
10:39:12pamauryPerhaps it could fit in memory
10:39:40pamauryAnd the size would increase only when the host access a new unaccessed directory
10:40:07GodEateris svn.rockbox.org still down ?
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10:43:27pcc1so a memory table entry for each file seen on the disk. what if the client does a recursive sweep of the whole disk?
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10:45:03pamauryThen the table would be of size 2*sizeof(cluster_id)*nb_files_on_disk
10:45:08pamaury(approx)
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10:45:41pamauryFor a reasonable disk, nb_files_on_disk<100000 and usually nb_files_on_disk<10000
10:46:27pamauryFor examplel, pick a 80Gb disk with musics. A music is 2Mb size, then nb_files_on_disk<=80Gb/2Mb<=80000/2<=40000
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10:51:04pamaurypcc1: what do you think about that ?
10:52:07pcc1yes, that may work
10:52:37pcc1(so long as you don't have too many files)
10:53:20pcc1but reconsidering, I imagine that the directory-based design can be tweaked to fit in memory
10:53:53pcc1and it may be better to have one table entry per directory that one per file
10:54:11pamauryCould you recall me what is your directory-based design ?
10:55:23pcc1so, combining the directory with the file index
10:55:43pcc1by direcotry, I mean cluster ID
10:56:07pamauryAnd how do you manage to store one entry per directory instead of one per file ?
10:56:16pcc1the cluster ID -> cluster mapping contains one entry per directory
10:57:02pamauryHum, what is the difference between cluster id and cluster ?
10:58:24pcc1cluster IDs are identifiers that are dynamically assigned as we traverse the directory tree. every time we encounter a cluster, we look it up in the mapping table and if not found we create a new cluster ID in memory that refers to the cluster
10:58:44pcc1"every time we encounter a cluster" <- meaning directory clusters only
11:00
11:00:24pamauryCorrect me if i'm wrong but you need a bidirectional mapping to know if the cluster is already assigned by a cluster ID ? And what is the advanced of having a cluster Id that is different from a cluster ? And finally, what identify a file ?
11:02:06pcc11. yes, but so long as you organise the table correctly the inverse mapping should not be hard to accomplish
11:02:34pamaury*s/advanced/advantage
11:03:25pcc12. there would be fewer cluster IDs than clusters, giving you more bits to store the file index
11:05:17pcc13. the lower n bits of the object ID identify the file. the object id corresponds to the xth entryn the cdirectory cluster that it identifies
11:05:31pcc1*s/entryn/entry in
11:06:37pamauryThat's ok for me. Just need to have n well chosen.
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11:09:16pamauryHow do you organize the table to have inverse mapping ?
11:09:38amiconnpamaury: Can't you use dircache entry numbers for object ids?
11:10:03amiconnIt would require dircache to be enabled for mtp to work, but I don't see a problem with that
11:11:08pcc1amiconn: how long do the dircache entry numbers persist?
11:12:29pamaurydircache has a problem: it has a limited amount of ram reserved so you can't add more entries that this limit
11:12:43pcc1pamaury: you partition the table into 2^n zones. each zone corresponds to the n lower bits of the cluster number. if you want to look up a cluster number you need only search that zone (and subsequent zones in case of overflow)
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11:16:06pcc1total storage depends on how many directories you anticipate. it should be sizeof(cluster_no)*dir_count (but you can save some space by omitting some of the known bits of the cluster no.)
11:16:27pamauryI don't know how dircache works but it would require to break or modify the api I guess. I prefer to have a custom solution. The drawback is that it requires to do directly fat calls but on the other hand, we have a clearer distinction between disk and volumes which is part of the MTP spec.
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11:19:58amiconnpcc1: Dircache entries persist until re-init of the dircache. This happens at boot, and also after USB MSD connection
11:21:21amiconnpamaury: Why is that a problem? Dircache reserves as much as it needs at boot, plus 64KB for entries added at runtime. The upper limit for reservation is 6MB - much more than it needs on a typical disk
11:21:25pcc1amiconn: and if a cache entry is evicted?
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11:31:21pamauryamiconn: can a dircache entry be evicted or is it completely static when loaded ?
11:32:03Slasheripamaury: all file operations (create, delete, rename, move) are supported by dircache
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11:33:17pamauryI mean: if I use as an object id the pointer into memory of the "struct dircache_entry" that I can perhaps get by calling a dircache api. Will this pointer remain valid until dircache is re-init or can it be evicted ?
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11:34:01Slasheripamaury: that will remain until re-init
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11:34:35Slasheri(on some targets it will remain valid even after a reboot, in case of dircache hibernation)
11:34:46GodEaterSlasheri: such as H1xx ?
11:34:51pamauryOk, in this case, dircache seems to be a good idea.
11:35:33SlasheriGodEater: indeed :)
11:35:43Slasheriactually that is the only target so far..
11:36:33pcc1pamaury: I concur
11:37:01pamauryOk thanks. I'm leaving but I'll come back later.
11:37:53pcc1pamaury: won't be around later. tomorrow?
11:38:35amiconnSlasheri: Yes, and only when flashed, and dircache "thinks" that the hiberfile is still valid, correct?
11:39:00pamaurypcc1: yes
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11:46:22Slasheriamiconn: flashing is not required, just the v7 bootloader. And dircache knows the hibernation file is correct, not just "thinking" it is
11:46:32Slasheriunless of course you have taken apart the hd from the player
11:47:04Slasheriamiconn: with dircache hibernation, the load time for dircache is less than a second
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11:52:58Slasheriamiconn: sorry, flashing is required.. i didn't remember that the eeprom is used by the original firmware as long as it exists. So that feature just remains disabled as long as the OF still exists
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11:55:11*iCub stalks antil33t.
11:55:23antil33tcool.
11:55:27antil33tRead the rules.
11:55:30iCubk.
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12:52:47crculverWhat exactly happens when you plug an iPod with Rockbox running into your computer?
12:53:35crculverIn my case, I have Linux. I plug the iPod in, Rockbox changes to the cable plug graphic, and then oddly enough the iPod scroll wheel can turn the volume on my computer up
12:53:40crculveror down. There must be more to it.
12:54:38Tornewhen you plug it in, unless you hold down the menu button to go into "charging only" mode, rockbox becomes a multifunction device with a USB mass storage interface exposing hte contents of the disk, and a USB HID device which sends multimedia keys when you touch the buttons
12:54:46Tornethe HID support is a fairly recent addition :)
12:55:04Tornewhat do you mean by "more to it?"
12:55:07Tornemore to it than what?
12:55:39crculverHow can I charge and still play music off my iPod at the same time?
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12:56:02Tornehold down menu while you plug the cable in
12:56:12TorneBut, currently it will not charge very well, or at all, like that
12:56:24crculverOK, thanks for the info
12:56:26Tornerockbox does not charge at full speed from USB on ipods at present
12:56:38Torneand if you are playing music then the disk activity may be enough to negate the charging entirely
12:56:42Torneor even make it continue to discharge
12:57:04Torneif the ipod is doing nothing then generally it will charge, but much more slowly than the OF - if you're doing anything with it all bets are off
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13:20:29PaulJam_kugel: little question about the custom statusbar patch: is scrolling supposed to work? in my thene the artist and title of the currently playing song are displayed in the menus, the line sometimes scrolls, but often it doesn't.
13:21:06kugelit's supposed to work yes
13:21:38kugelstatic tags seem to be a bit bugged anyway, I need to take a closer look at them
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13:24:08kugelPaulJam_: did you sync it with JdGordon's [sub]line commit?
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13:29:46PaulJam_kugel: no, i'm stilll using an older revision
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15:38:57CIA-43New commit by 03kugel (r22610): Don't stop scrolling for the whole display, but only in the actual list parent viewport.
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15:39:25kugelPaulJam: ^ scrolling was a bug in svn actually
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15:42:06PaulJamnice, thanks for fixing it.
15:42:17kugelneed to sync the patch though
15:42:25kugelcould take a while :)
15:44:04PaulJambtw, did you see my comment on FS about the freeze when resetting the settings on boot?
15:46:05kugelyes
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16:23:22kugellol, checkwps is broken again
16:23:44kugelcould be my statusbar patch actually
16:24:16kugelno, broken in svn
16:24:21*kugel slaps JdGordon
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17:30:20kugelJdGordon: I addressed a few of your remarks (re statusbar patch)
17:34:42JdGordongood good :)
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17:44:47kay_xhey, can somebody help me please?
17:45:22Torneif you ask your question someone may help
17:46:51kay_xokay, I bought a cheap mp3 player over the internet and it doesnt seem to have any name, model number or anything and I was wondering if rockbox would work with it
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17:47:06bluebrotherkay_x: have you read the front page?
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17:48:40kay_xI've looked but I couldnt see anything that would say whether it would work or not, or am I just being blind? :)
17:49:41bluebrotherit lists all supported players. Which means a player without name is not supported.
17:51:09kay_xahh okay.
17:51:26kay_xdoes that mean it's definitely not worth the risk?
17:51:53JdGordonwhat risk?
17:51:56JdGordonthere is no risk
17:53:16kay_xsorry ^^ I just meant like its not worth trying it becuase its not listed
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17:53:47Unhelpfulkay_x: this sort of question comes up a lot. there's not really a way to "try" it
17:54:33kay_xoh, sorry ^^ I bet I must sound like a complete idiot :P
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17:55:14JdGordonno a complete idiot :)
17:55:17JdGordonnot*
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17:55:45kay_x^^ ty =]
17:55:50Unhelpfulnah, it's something that's not really obvious from the outside of the project, but the various ways to get alternate firmware on are somewhat device-specific
17:56:04Unhelpfuland our tools for using them all check for specific devices :)
17:57:31kay_xahh, that explains alot.
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17:58:16kay_xif it makes any difference it's very similar to an iPod just it doesn't use the scroll wheel.
17:58:49gevaertsvery similar on the outside means nothing at all on the inside
17:58:57kay_xbut I guess if its device specific then being similar to an iPod would make no difference right?
17:59:20Torneunless it was actually the *same chip* as an ipod it won't make any difference, no
17:59:41TorneIf it is the same system-on-chip as a player we already support that makes a port easier, but you still can't use the build for a different player
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18:00:07kay_xokay, that makes sense =]
18:00:54kay_xthanks for the help =]
18:01:14UnhelpfulTorne: not *strictly* true, some user port attempts have started with attempting a manual install for systems with very similar hardware and same vendor firmware formats... i don't think they made *great* progress, though.
18:01:30TorneWell, that would have to be more similar than being based on the same SoC
18:01:55Torneyou need the same ram bank config and so on :)
18:02:20Unhelpfulkay_x: if you were able to attempt something like that, you would risk making your device completely unusable, and even if it weren't broken entirely rockbox would be unlikely to work usefully. hence our not going very far to help people do such things. :)
18:02:45kay_xyeah, I can understand that =]
18:03:18kugelUnhelpful: the YH port start that way basically. The samsung p2 port would be quite advanced already too (the cowon d2 build runs on it) but no dev has one
18:03:40gevaertskugel: people checked SoCs before trying things though
18:03:43kay_xseeing as it was a cheap chinese copy I doubt the insides are anything like an ipod :P
18:03:57Unhelpfulif i find the charger i mean to take a stab at getting the yp-z5 running RB :)
18:04:35kugelgevaerts: well, Unhelpful explicitely said "for systems with very similar hardware" which implies checking the soc
18:05:20Unhelpfulsame non-SoC CPU plus sufficiently similar peripherals might also get you partway there
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18:50:55bertrikfunman, what's wrong with the c200v2 display driver?
18:51:13funmanbertrik: sometimes (very often) i have no output in the bootloader
18:51:44funmanonly backlight: the display is all black (or perhaps gray ..)
18:52:23bertrikI'll have a look once I have the hardware
18:52:39bertrikdoes this only happen in the bootloader, i.e. the main rockbox firmware is fine in this regard?
18:52:42funmanI just hope it didn't finish in the pockets of a postman ..
18:52:52funmanyes, loaded firmware is always fine
18:53:01funmanit could be related to timings tuning in the lcd code
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19:10:50funmanis make V=1 the good way to get full output from makefiles?
19:11:02funmanI'm trying to use the ARM RCVT compiler and I see:
19:11:06funman% make V=1
19:11:06funmanFatal error: C3900U: Unrecognized option '-P'.
19:11:32funmanI don't know which command line / Makefile use this option
19:12:23 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
19:14:14Bagderfind . -name Makefile | xargs grep −− -P
19:15:37funmanmost of the makefiles are named *.make , it should be consistent
19:16:04Bagderno, the files named .make are included by Makefiles
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19:16:17funman-P is used in functions.make for instance
19:16:35Bagderand in a zillion makefiles, as my command shows
19:17:02Bagder"-P Inhibit generation of linemarkers in the output"
19:17:21gevaertsfunman: run "make V=1" to find the failing command ;)
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19:26:48funmani'm not sure what's the first rule: root.make has a "all: $(DEPFILE) build" rule but the "$(DEPFILE) dep:" rule isn't called at first
19:28:11funmanmake -d won't even tell me what is the first rule being made
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19:46:08iudexi have lame question -> what is AA? (i saw that when you was talk about clip)
19:46:32funmanAlbum Art
19:47:19iudexok thx. Its good idea to disable that. (is it enabled now? :D )
19:48:44funmanno it's disabled
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19:49:46funmanmy compiler is called before the "$(DEPFILE) dep" rule is evaluated if I use "make dep"
19:49:48iudexfunman: do you know how much memory we need?
19:50:03funmaniudex: for album art? i don't know
19:50:44gevaertswe don't do album art on 1-bit displays
19:50:52iudexyes, i know
19:51:15iudexBut i know, there's not enough memory to have stable playback. Is it?
19:51:34gevaertsthere is. There just are enough bugs to make it unstable
19:52:25iudexOk, so now i know what's happening. :)
19:52:51gevaertsah, then you can start fixing it!
19:52:55domonokybut more memory would hide the bugs :-) unfortunatly you cannot upgrade it :-)
19:53:18iudexgevaerts: I dont have any experience ;)
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19:53:38gevaertsdomonoky: s/unfortunatly/fortunatly/
19:53:45gevaertsThis way the bugs will be found :)
19:53:58domonokyhopefully :-)
19:54:28iudexBut! CBR mp3's are probably stable. 192 or 128 i dont remember
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19:55:28bertrikplayback on the clip seemed to get more stable when moving the stack from IRAM to DRAM (or the other way around)
19:55:51bertrikbut I have no explanation for that, probably it just hid the actual bugs better
19:56:09funmancc -I/home/fun/rb/f -I/home/fun/rb/f/lang -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/target/arm/as3525/sansa-fuze -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/target/arm/as3525 -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/target/arm -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/export -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/include -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/export -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/common -I/media/bordel/rockbox/firmware/drivers -DROCKBOX -DMEMORYS
19:56:38funmanI don't understand this syntax: SOURCES isn't a C file ?
19:57:55funmanvarious .make files use call preprocess, .../SOURCES which in turn calls gcc
19:58:07Bagderno SOURCES is just a file with file names
19:58:21Bagdergcc is then used to preprocess it
19:58:23funmanhmm -E will only call the preprocessor
19:58:42Bagderyes, and -P inhibits the #lines
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19:59:46funmanany difference between gcc -E and cpp ?
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20:00:18gevaertsfunman: less work in the makefiles. gcc can be overridden by the user
20:00:37JBLoudG20question for you guys/gals: I listen to a radio show in mp3 format on my rockboxed ipod. Let's say I want to listen to an album, but have not finished the radio show. Is there a way for me to stop playback of the radioshow mp3, listen to other songs, then go back to the radioshow and pickup where I left off?
20:01:29pixelmayes with bookmarks
20:02:04JBLoudG20aha
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20:05:54JBLoudG20fantastic, thanks pixelma
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20:25:30funmanwhich program use CFLAGS if not $(CC) ?
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20:36:54funmansomehow make -n isn't respected
20:37:50funmanlooks like some commands are executed "under the hood"
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20:57:28BdN3504what are vertical strides?
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21:13:25Unhelpfulsomething only relevant to developers doing pixel-oriented access to the display?
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21:17:13rasherIt seems to be more macrohell
21:17:56JdGordon|part of the fun of supporting 25+ targets
21:18:31BdN3504Unhelpful: thanks.
21:18:44rasherJdGordon|: sounds like a red herring
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22:18:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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23:14:21CIA-43New commit by 03learman (r22611): Quick fix to allow certain MP3 files to play. If a Xing or Info header didn't properly set both the frame count and byte count, then the bitrate was ...
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