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#rockbox log for 2009-09-28

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00:29:19 Join tegguN [0] (n=4e923844@giant.haxx.se)
00:31:43tegguNHi- I have a bit of a problem, can anyone run me through the details of how Rockbox updates Sansa (in particular Fuze) firmware? Not how to do it but the process the player actually goes through in updating.
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00:33:36linuxstbIIRC, the Sansa original firmware looks for a firmware file in the main (FAT) partition, and if it exists, writes it to a hidden part of the flash disk.
00:33:48linuxstbWhat's your problem?
00:34:45 Join intrados4 [0] (n=intrados@cpe-75-187-57-252.columbus.res.rr.com)
00:35:35tegguNbasically, rockbox works fine, but since installing rockbox when I boot the Sansa firmware it freezes on updating the database, I want to update the original firmware to get it working again, but because it updates the database before looking for a firmware file I can't
00:35:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:36:22gevaertsthe first thing I would do would be checking the filesystem
00:37:36tegguNI've tried that, I've formatted (through Windows I can't on the player itself) and I've ran Chkdsk which pulled up no problems
00:38:02 Join maffe [0] (n=Miranda@77-21-35-240-dynip.superkabel.de)
00:38:53gevaertsit would after formatting...
00:38:53*gevaerts has no idea then
00:38:59tegguNIs it possible that the installation of the Rockbox bootloader could have affected the Sansa firmware?
00:39:43linuxstbDoes this work? http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=announcement&thread.id=165
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00:42:47tegguNsorry about that, just disconnected me- bizzarre, I just accidentally pulled the player out without unmounting it and it booted fine
00:43:00tegguNI'll run some more tests and try that diagnostic mode
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01:16:44mkoenighhmm wasnt there a wiki entry about how to skip the database update on the ams sansas... maybe that would help tegguN if he shows up again
01:17:35JdGordonsetting the MUSIC folder as read-ony does it i tihnk?
01:17:41JdGordonalso having no free space will do it
01:17:53mkoenigyeah it was something like that
01:18:12mkoenigwell he isnt here anymore so this wont help too much unless he checks the log.. :)
01:18:36pixelmaI thought that trick only worked on the c200v1 (and was dangerous otherwise) and it was the SYSTEM folder
01:18:37 Quit ender` (" With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they")
01:18:53mkoenigand i remember dimly that it was strongly suggested on the fuze forum to reformat the public flash area after the firmware update that increased the max database size
01:19:24mkoenigso he might be running into that problem as well
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01:19:41pixelmajust be careful with what you suggest
01:19:55mkoenigtrue as well
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02:28:43CtcpPing from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
02:29:38CtcpPing from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
02:35:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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06:04:39*likemindead loves 3.4 & thanks all who helped make it what it is!
06:06:06Dhraakellianoh, hey, when'd that happen
06:06:09*Dhraakellian goes to see!
06:09:26likemindeadThree days ago, Dhraakellian!
06:09:39*Dhraakellian must be oblivious
06:09:50likemindeadI missed 3.3 and was pleasantly surprised to find 3.4 today. :D
06:09:51Dhraakellianeither that or I just don't check the front page much
06:10:06likemindeadWhat do you use Rockbox on, Dhraakellian?
06:10:32DhraakellianFuzeV1
06:11:01Dhraakellianand I usually build it myself anyway, due to a one-liner keybinding patch for Sudoku
06:11:10likemindeadNice. Old iPod Color (4th Gen) 60GB here.
06:11:16Dhraakellianmaking the scratchpad button a *lot* more convenient
06:12:04*Dhraakellian really wouldn't mind seeing that patch committed so that he wouldn't have to do his own builds
06:15:04DhraakellianFS #10459
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06:15:39Dhraakellianof course, "scratchpad" didn't occur to me until much later
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06:36:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:36:39likemindeadG'nite.
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08:36:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:48:01amiconnbertrik: The ZVM 30GB checkwps build is still red...
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09:21:43sjhhi, I was having problems where rockboc froze trying to play some ogg files I had encoded recently, so I thought I would try upgrading to version 3.4 from 3.0 on my ipod video. However Iw as getting vfat errors on my linux computer trying to overwrite the .rockbox directory so I copied all my music off the device, and did a mkfs.vfat to create a new vfat filesystem on /dev/sdb2 and then resinstalled rockbox and just to be sure ran ipodpatcher to get the bootloader on
09:22:04sjhnow when I try starting the ipod the rockbox boot loader says "No partitions found"
09:22:22 Join LinusN [0] (n=linus@rockbox/developer/LinusN)
09:22:51sjhanyone know if there is some other way I am supposed to format the drive? Or should I maybe put the mbr from the device or the website on there?
09:32:50 Quit safetydan ("Leaving.")
09:35:09janne_oksanensjh: I think you can format it with iTunes
09:35:41janne_oksanenthat is if you can get your hands on a Windows or OSX box
09:36:19janne_oksanenhttp://ipod.about.com/od/restoreandreformatipod/ss/restore_ipod.htm
09:41:16sjhjanne_oksanen: I can ask my housemates if they have itunes installed somewhere or someone else in the department where I work, cheers
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09:55:34GodEater__janne_oksanen: reformatting an ipod with an OSX install of iTunes is a very bad idea if you want to run Rockbox on it afterwards.
09:56:17GodEater__sjh: What does "fdisk -l" report for your ipod ?
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10:06:27TomersHi, Is anyone interested in testing "FS #10468 - USB HID: Show keypad mode on screen"
10:06:34Tomers?
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10:13:03GodEater__I think gevaerts was due to take a look at it wasn't he ?
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10:19:36TomersGodEater__: Yes, gevaerts is on this. I don't need feedback on the code, rather on the feature itself - is it working ok on other targets (besides e200), etc
10:21:22GodEater__ah I see
10:21:41GodEater__I'd offer to test on ipod for you, but I have no build environment here :(
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10:22:40TomersDo you want me to send you a zip?
10:23:29GodEater__hehe no - the reason I have no build env here is that there is no point. USB on these machines is locked down
10:23:35GodEater__so I have no way to get anything on to the ipod
10:24:43TomersGodEater__: But you can enable the usb stack on the ipod, don't you (some stability issues, though)
10:25:09GodEater__that wouldn't help - the PC's policy means all USB UMS devices attached to it are marked as read only
10:25:40Tomersoh, ok...
10:27:05GodEater__if I remember I'll have a look when I get home tonight
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10:36:13***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:03:30krabadori've mp3 and flac in my rockboxed fuze, but i hear a little "click" only between flac files, all flac files
11:05:12linuxstbHave you tried the files on a gapless audio player on your PC? (e.g. foobar2000) Or maybe you could try the Rockbox UI simulator (any version) - rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/simulator/
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11:14:36TheSeven|Mobilewhat do you think? should i go for just the writing part of the ftl, or also the error handling and restore on unclean shutdown stuff?
11:15:03TheSeven|Mobilein theory the norboot should at least catch most of the latter
11:15:43funmanTheSeven|Mobile: write all the funny parts !
11:19:28TheSeven|Mobilewell, the whole ftl code is pretty funny
11:19:46TheSeven|Mobilelots of entirely pointless things
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11:32:34krabadorlinuxstb: yes, i tried the files on pc and all right
11:33:00krabadori've many type of flac files , they all gap at the begin
11:33:11krabadormp3 and ogg not
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11:42:46Paleskinhow to install theme which don't have a cfg files on fuze ?
11:45:20Tornea theme *is* a cfg file. do you mean a wps?
11:45:45Paleskinnope
11:45:59Paleskinthe cfg in the themes directory
11:46:09Paleskinin a whisper themes for fuze
11:46:26Paleskinit's cfg file only have "#"
11:46:32Paleskinalmost empty
11:46:42Paleskinand it doesn't worlk
11:47:29Torneyup, the theme is broken
11:47:33TorneIt's just a wps and a backdrop
11:47:34Paleskinother than that, it have backdrop, wps, wps pics
11:47:36Torneyou can select them seperately
11:47:42Paleskinhow
11:47:52Tornetheme settings -> while playing screen
11:48:25Paleskinand the new cfg will be created automatically ?
11:48:34Torneno, it won't create a cfg
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11:48:38Torneit will just change your settings.
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11:48:48Torneany colours/etc that are supposed to be in the theme won't get set though
11:48:54Tornesince those would've been in the cfg
11:49:03Torneit's just broken.
11:49:14*Torne just downloaded it and the cfg is indeed empty
11:49:17Paleskinsupposed I wanna write the cfg manually, how should I do that ?
11:49:30TorneEr, you would need to know what font/colours/etc the original author intended :)
11:49:45PaleskinI need to contact the author then ?
11:50:06Torneyes, contact them and tell them the copy of their theme on the rockbox site has an empty cfg
11:50:11Torneand hopefully they will upload a new copy :)
11:50:29PaleskinOk, I'll mail him, thanks =)
11:50:36linuxstbkrabador: Did you try the Rockbox UI simulator?. This would help identify if it's a bug in the Fuze-specific parts of Rockbox, or whether it happens on all Rockbox targets (i.e. there's something unusual about your FLACs).
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11:51:42krabadorlinuxstb: i'm on linux, it works with wine?
11:53:18linuxstbI think so, but it runs on Linux as well - you just need to compile it yourself. See http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator
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12:32:24kugelTorne: one can select "Save Theme Settings" to write all theme related settings to a cfg
12:33:28GodEater__yeah, but the question was would one be created automatically, which it won't ;)
12:34:04Tornealso the theme is clearly *intended* to have a cfg
12:34:12Torneso just picking the wps/backdrop and saving that is hardly equivalent ;)
12:34:21kugeljust saying, the other guy wanted to write it manually
12:35:04kugeland since he's gone I'm telling it Torne so that he can point to that for the next time he's assisting people with themes :)
12:35:14kugel+ for the logs :p
12:35:34Tornehah
12:35:52Tornestill lacks a way of divining the correct values of all the *other* settings :)
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12:53:06Paleskinis there a shorter way to access eq from playing now screen ?
12:53:51Paleskineverytime I listen to a different genre, I musti go to setting −−−−−−> sound setting −−−−−−−−>browse eq presets
12:53:59Paleskinusing fuze
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12:54:49Paleskinwhile in the of, it's more shorter, just go to−−−−-> eq −−−−−−−−−−->select preset
12:55:30Torneno, there isn't.
12:56:09PaleskinI see, thanks
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13:34:48evilnickTorne: It might be useful to allow adding Browse EQ Presets to the Quickscreen
13:37:27pixelmaI don't think it's that easy (I mean just "allowing" it) because behind it is just a file browser and the number of files can change etc. Could be that things like browsing eq presets or something else was already discussed in the forums
13:37:52pixelmafrom the quickscreen I mean
13:40:14Torneevilnick: i was just thinking that, but yeah, it seems nontrivial
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13:49:38amiconnThe eq is accessible from the wps context menu, isn't it?
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13:59:37evilnickpixelma: I kinda feared that it wouldn't be as simple as the options that have a finite (and known) number of settings :/
13:59:55evilnick-finite
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14:01:22Torneamiconn: it's three selections away thouhg
14:01:34Torneamiconn: context menu -> sound settings -> equaliser -> select preset -> <preset you want>
14:01:43Tornewhich is what the guy was wanting to avoid
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14:01:57GodEater__people need to appreciate though that with a firmware as complex as rockbox you can't make *everything* one click away
14:02:04Tornesure.
14:02:19Tornebut if that kind of setting could go on the quickscreen then people could make four things one click away for themselves, i guess.
14:02:25Torne:)
14:04:49GodEater__so they could add four presets to the quickscreen
14:06:24Tornei was imagining being able to bind non-setting menu items to the quickscreen personally
14:06:36Torneso you could have a quickscreen option that took you directly to a particular menu action
14:06:51Torneso the button would be "list eq presets"
14:06:58pixelmamaybe we could add "browse xyz presets" to the WPS context menu? It has a potential to quickly clutter that up though if people start asking for more browsable things to put there (e.g. themes etc.)
14:07:07Tornebut yeah, there's more than one possible way to do it, none of which are trivial ;)
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15:28:49osdaegHi!
15:29:23GodEater__hello
15:29:42osdaegsorry for my english
15:29:47osdaegi'm from argentina
15:29:51GodEater__it's just fine so far
15:30:02GodEater__and a lot better than my spanish I would imagine
15:30:21osdaegI have a question
15:30:56osdaegI have a PMP (mp5) device with sunplus chip
15:31:17osdaegis a great gadget
15:31:55osdaegbue they have defects
15:32:19*GodEater__ waits for the actual question
15:32:40osdaegI can install rockbox in my device
15:32:46osdaeg??
15:32:49funmanno
15:32:51GodEater__nope
15:32:56osdaeg:(
15:33:06GodEater__Rockbox only runs on the devices we list on our front page
15:33:17GodEater__getting it to run on other players is a great deal of work
15:33:22osdaegany future support??
15:33:31GodEater__only if someone decides to do the work
15:33:47GodEater__it's usually better to ask other people who own the device to pitch in and help out developing, rather than coming here first
15:33:59GodEater__we're happy to help - but we don't do ports on demand
15:35:24osdaegHow do I begin?
15:36:01GodEater__http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/NewPort
15:37:50osdaegok. thanks. I will look.
15:37:59GodEater__good luck
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15:39:41*GodEater__ thinks we need a better explanation "who" the rockbox developers are. In that, they are not a team of people who port Rockbox to devices, but are a team of people comprised of persons who HAVE ported Rockbox to a device at one time.
15:40:12GodEater__and possibly have done other ports afterwards, but not necessarily.
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16:35:38enthdegreeHello, Quick question: What is the cheapest, smallest device with rockbox working on it? c200v1?
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16:37:01robin0800enthdegree: c240 v1
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16:38:11enthdegreeI thought so. Is there any surefire way of buying a v1 c200? e.g, has anyone ever found a v2 in v1 packaging?
16:38:42*likemindead is away: My second home is a third world cantina.
16:42:32robin0800enthdegree: no at least not easily to first question and yes to second
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16:44:44robin0800enthdegree: you can't tell v1 from v2 by packaging only way is firmware 01= v1 and 02=v2
16:46:20enthdegreeWell, drat. I'm just looking for a cheap mp3 player to listen to podcasts + watch small video clips on. I guess I could just hunt for a used one...
16:46:32GodEater__likemindead: don't do that please
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16:48:43robin0800enthdegree: try ebay for c240
16:49:35enthdegreeYeah, I'll just message the seller.
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17:37:40TSS_Killerhi
17:38:01TSS_Killerquestion...is there any newer windows binary of beastpatcher?
17:38:28TSS_KillerI ask because the Gigabeat S is recognised as an unknown device in the old beastpatcher
17:38:50TSS_Killerand it gives me a no disk in drive error
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17:51:59gevaertsTomers: I should be able to find some time to review and commit FS #10468 this week
17:52:56*gevaerts hasn't looked at the patch yet, but he thinks that the diffstat output looks good
17:53:16Tomersgevaerts: Thanks. It is not separated into several patches, as you usually prefer :-)
17:53:16*LambdaCalculus37 should probably stop being lazy and fix FS #10431 again
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17:53:56Tomersgevaerts: It is one big patch, but it is all related to the same feature.
17:53:58gevaertsTomers: I know, but I think in this case that's not too important, as it basically only does one thing :)
17:54:25Tomersgevaerts: We were saying the same thing at once :-)
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18:24:45*TSS_Killer guesses no one has a solid answer for that
18:25:57fieldri1968_I've used the script in the FAQ to generate a playlist which contains all the music files on my Rockboxed iPod. I've then used a keyboard macro in Emacs to create individual playlists by cutting and pasting from the full file. I've ended up with 2048 playlists. However, when I try and load any of the files I get an error message: 'Undefined instruction at 001FC01C (0)'
18:28:02fieldri1968_I've upped the files per directory limit to 2500 which is more than the number of playlists. Anyone any ideas what could be going wrong? BTW, its Rockbox v. 3.3, installed using the normal install utility.
18:28:38fieldri1968_And I've had no other problem using Rockbox, its a fantastic project.
18:31:27gevaertsfieldri1968_: Could you try with a more recent build (I'd say either 3.4 or the current build), and possibly with only one of your playlists on the player?
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18:39:26fieldri1968_Hi gevaerts. I moved all of the playlists off the iPod into a temp directory on Ubuntu desktop. Then moved back 3 playlists, and they all work as expected.
18:41:45gevaertsok, so the playlists themselves are fine... Have you checked the filesystem for corruption? That can cause weird issues
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18:55:36fieldri1968_thanks for the advice. How would you check the filesystem? I've tried running fsck, but not found anything. I'll try and have a go at upgrading to the newer Rockbox later, see if that helps.
18:56:30gevaertsif fsck doesn't find anything, the filesystem is unlikely to be the problem I think, although I've heard some people say that fsck isn't as good as chkdsk on windows for FAT
18:57:12pixelmalikemindead: please turn off that script, this channel is logged and that will fill the logs with useless info (see the guidelines linked from the topic too)
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19:15:00j8048188Hello
19:15:14j8048188Can someone give me (JaredCapson) write access to the wiki?
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19:16:51GodEaterhmm, I would, but we appear to have changed wiki software, and I've no idea where the useradmin pages are now!
19:18:24GodEaterah hang on - getting there
19:20:01GodEaterj8048188: done
19:20:05GodEaterI hope :)
19:20:46j8048188it works. Thanks!
19:21:18GodEaterno problem
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19:32:03mtsaratoga2: With fixed32, what representation did you use ? (I'm guessing 16.16 ?)
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19:34:55saratoga2mt: it depends on the codec, but IIRC WMA was in 14.18
19:35:13saratoga2the FFT itself has no native precision since its constants are all 1.31
19:35:22saratoga2IIRC
19:35:37saratoga2so you can put in any precision you like and it comes out the same
19:37:22mtThe permutations done in the fft, are they for the reordering of interleaved input samples, like in AC3 for example ?
19:37:54saratoga2no I don't htink so
19:38:10saratoga2as far as I know this is just a conventional FFT with no special considerations for packed formats like AC3
19:38:24saratoga2the permutations are used as part of the split radix decomposition
19:38:30mtAh, it's just me dreaming then. :)
19:38:53saratoga2i don't understand this algorithm, but I believe the idea is to split it into a series of N/2 and N/4 transforms recursively
19:38:58saratoga2and the permutations are used to do that
19:41:12saratoga2"To these ends, a number of alternative implementation schemes have been devised for the Cooley-Tukey algorithm that do not require separate bit reversal and/or involve additional permutations at intermediate stages."
19:41:22mtYeah, what I know about it is that it's the same as a radix-2 algorithm, except that when it splits the input in half, one half is done with a N/2 transform and the other broken down to 2 N/4 transforms.
19:41:27saratoga2so basically the decomposition requires some sort of permutation at each level
19:41:33mtOh I see.
19:41:46saratoga2presumably the output of one stage is in the wrong order for the next stage
19:42:31saratoga2FFTs are probably the most boring part of signal processing, shame we have to deal with implementing them :)
19:42:45enthdegreeCan the c240 playback video? I see the graph on the rockbocks website, but it doesn't look like anyone's tested it...
19:42:45mt:)
19:42:50enthdegree**rockbox lol
19:43:07saratoga2yes it can
19:43:29enthdegreeCan it play video ~well~ ? :D
19:43:39mtsaratoga2: The ffmpeg fft looks a lot like liba52's though.
19:43:50saratoga2let me look at theres
19:43:52enthdegree(well for an 80*something screen, I mean. )
19:44:11saratoga2what do you mean well
19:44:38saratoga2its going to be really small
19:45:03bertrikand the c200 display is rather slow and low quality
19:45:06mtI guess he meant at a convenient frame-rate
19:45:07enthdegreeWell as in no flicker, 30 fps, sound, picture moves.
19:45:13enthdegree@mt yeah.
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19:46:36saratoga2sure on such a small screen thats easy
19:46:50saratoga2mt: yeah its the same basic split radix algorithm
19:46:59saratoga2just unrolled a little more and designed for more sizes
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19:47:45saratoga2hmm some of the variables have improbably similar names
19:47:50marek_hi, where can i download beastpatcher?
19:47:55saratoga2probably based on a reading of the same paper
19:48:01mtsaratoga2: It seems they also did more optimizations for butterflies of special cases (Not handled in ffmpeg)
19:48:08marek_" Download beastpatcher from add download location (32-bit x86 binary) or add download location (64-bit amd64 binary). You can save this anywhere you wish, but the next steps will assume you have saved it in your home directory. "
19:48:15marek_i want to install dropbox on toshiba S
19:48:45enthdegreeOk, great. And reviewers say its audio quality is sub-par, but that's fine for me. I'm just listening to podcasts/short videocasts anyway. And at 23 slaps in the face it's practically an impulse buy. Thanks for your help, guys. :D
19:49:41saratoga2mt: which case is this?
19:50:26saratoga2it looks like they both have the BUTTERFLY_0 case handled
19:50:36saratoga2which i think is very important to the performance of the split radix
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19:51:49saratoga2oh the BUTTERFLY_HALF case may be different then ffmpeg's
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19:52:30mtyes .. I'm still looking for BF_zero in ffmpeg :D
19:52:41Guest64476Hey Ho!
19:53:23saratoga2mt: i think its wrapped into TRANSFORM_ZERO
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19:53:59Guest64476Is there somebody with a Rockboxed Sansa Fuze?
19:54:17saratoga2it might be worth unwrapping both these things for the N=32 case or something similar and seeing how similar they are
19:54:32saratoga2trying to think about these in the abstract makes my head spine
19:54:34saratoga2spin
19:54:50saratoga2but I wonder how fast the ac3 transform is already . . .
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19:55:52mt I was thinking of factoring out a52's fft and comparing the 2 (after converting ffmpeg's to fixed point of course)
19:56:01evilnickGuest64476: Ask your question and if anyone knows then they'll answer
19:56:23saratoga2mt: looking at AC3's, the fft8 case looks like its a good bit faster
19:57:24saratoga2since the BUTTERFLY_HALF in ffmpeg is actually just done as a series of multiplies without using any of the symmetry
19:58:03Guest64476Okay. Sorry but im too lazy to search in the forums. I just put some music on my new Rockboxed Fuze. But i cant see them.
19:58:18Guest64476Do i have to refresh it somehow?
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19:59:44bertrikGuest64476, you can update the database under Settings / General Settings / Database (and enable automatic database update there too)
20:00
20:00:02Guest64476Thanks bertrik !
20:00:28mtsaratoga2: I see, I still think I'd want to compare both on a test run. :)
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20:03:25mtBut I guess if more differences -like the butterfly_half- were found, then there would be no need to test ffmpeg's.
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20:10:45AlexPGuest64476: As a note, "im too lazy to search in the forums" into a brilliant way to make people want to spend their time helping you
20:10:54AlexPs/into/isn't/
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20:36:34tegguNhi- for anyone around last night (around 00.30 GMT) who helped with my problem, thanks- I accidentally fixed it by removing the device without unmounting it, it went straight to the Sansa firmware instead of refreshing the db. Unorthodox and potentially dangerous but it worked.
20:37:34marek_hi, anybody tried to install rockbox on toshiba gigabite S/
20:37:36marek_?
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20:44:37saratoga2mt: since AC3 and ffmpeg transforms are so similar maybe we can test the ffmpeg one by substituting its functions into AC3 [BUTTERFLIES, TRANSFORM, fft2/4/8, etc]
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20:46:54mtsaratoga2: Do you mean building an fft similar to ffmpeg's out of AC3's functions ?
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20:47:42mtmarek_: On the front page of the website, you could see that the gigabeat S is listed as being unusable.
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20:52:04saratoga2mt: yeah, the basic form looks so similar, maybe functions can just be swapped between them?
20:54:01mtI guess so ..
20:54:52n1smarek_: yes, but the installation can be a bit quirky
20:55:02mtBut shouldn't we write the macros used in ffmpeg wherever they replace a function in ac3 ?
20:55:30marek_n1s, where did you get beastpatcher?
20:55:43marek_mt i know, but i want to give it a try
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20:58:43n1smarek_: i used the old tools so i didn't get beastpatcher at all and i'm not sure there's even a released binary of it...
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21:01:38tegguNquick question- When a new release of rockbox (eg. 3.4) is the change reflected across all builds (eg. fuze or clip) and are the bootloaders modified or do they generally stay the same?
21:02:00 Quit HBK (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:02:12n1sall supported targets get a release build of rockbox, bootloaders rarely change
21:03:03tegguNthanks! How do we know when bootloaders change?
21:04:33n1seh, "you don't" is probably the most correct answer, unfortunately
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21:10:58mtsaratoga2: hmm .. what about using the butterfly_half from ac3 with the macros from ffmpeg (this would reduce overhead significantly I guess (?) ) ?
21:12:36mtEven if both are functionally the same, we'd be better replacing ac3's functions with ffmpeg's macros.
21:13:20saratoga2mt: i think you are right
21:13:31saratoga2since the AC3 code doesn't look like it can do the larger fft sizes
21:13:48saratoga2IIRC AAC/WMA/Vorbis need up to 1024 point FFTs
21:14:33saratoga2no I'm sorry they need 512
21:14:41saratoga2since the FFT has to be 1/4 the size of the IMDCT
21:14:48saratoga2so 2048 => 512 fft
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21:19:52mtsaratoga2: Do you remember where your fixed-point fft produced wrong values ?
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21:29:29saratoga2mt: I think almost all of them were wrong
21:29:37saratoga2probably i didn't initialize something correctly
21:29:40saratoga2i didn't figure out why
21:30:13mt:( .. no problem.
21:31:08saratoga2mt: when I get some free time today i'll try and take a look
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21:32:59mtIt's OK, it's not that boring for me :)
21:33:30saratoga2are you trying to measure the performance of the ffmpeg transform ?
21:34:21mtI want to do that yes.
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21:37:22CIA-43New commit by 03rob (r22848): Fix the builds list to look for the right ZVM CheckWPS target filename
21:39:00shotofaddsBagder (or any other nearby Swede..) does the build master need an svn up or anything to take notice of that commit?
21:40:11gevaertsshotofadds: I seem to remember that it checks that automatically every ten minutes or so
21:40:31shotofaddsah ok, it's not exactly urgent... tho nice to get rid of a red
21:44:01shotofaddsI was thinking of bringing the TouchpadInterface wiki page up-to-date and to list which screens still need adapting to the touchscreen (so that Mr Someone can use it as another to-do list...), but first things first: it should be renamed TouchscreenInterface, right?
21:44:37shotofaddsthe WPS section can go as it's already covered by CustomWPS
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21:45:59gevaertsI agree that a rename is a good idea
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21:46:32shotofaddsIt could also do with some discussion about how to handle touchscreen WPSs - the current Cabbie is not a suitable touch theme on the D2 due to the small font size
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22:07:03bertrikshotofadds, thanks for fixing that, I had no idea myself how to
22:07:29shotofaddsbertrik: it took me a while to figure out what the problem was ;)
22:07:52shotofaddswe have yet to see if it actually worked though...!
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22:20:23stripwaxmt - I was reading some old threads on Tremor mailing list about replacing the existing tremor implementation with N/4 FFT for running on TI dsp .. the comments on the list seemed to mirror what I thought (i.e. that they would be comparing a dsp-optimised FFT with the Tremor non-asm-optimised C implementation). Unfortunately the source code for the N/4 FFT & prerolling (including a vanilla C implementation that would work on
22:20:23stripwaxnon-TI non-DSP implementations) doesn't seem to be available
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22:22:18stripwaxmt - however, the A52 Standard includes details on N/4 FFT implementation of IMDCT, with pseudocode, which should make a basic implementation straightforward
22:22:19stripwaxhttp://www.atsc.org/standards/a_52b.pdf
22:22:24stripwaxSection 7.9
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22:22:41*stripwax apologises in advance if this is Not News to everybody
22:24:46stripwaxmt - the big win of course would be if we already have an existing fast (and optimised) complex IFFT to 'just plug in'
22:26:33shotofaddsAny thoughts on http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/TouchscreenInterface would be much appreciated...
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22:38:39saratogastripwax: yes mt sent me that article yesterday and I originally read it in 2006 :)
22:38:44saratogaerr 2007
22:39:10saratogaits not too relevent to us since we can't use whatever closed source FFT they used on their DSP core
22:39:48saratogathe problem with FFT based IMDCT was always how good of an FFT can you write
22:42:09stripwaxyep. but I'm wondering if the Tremor really is much different anyway - it's still an optimised DCT kernel (or something) right?
22:44:17stripwaxThis, on the other hand, *is* relevant. http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis-dev/2003-May/016206.html http://groups.google.ca/group/Audio-Algorithms/browse_thread/thread/2e940fa244f078a
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22:44:40mtstripwax: Yes, the goal is to have a fast fft (referring to your former note) that could be reused.
22:45:20stripwaxmt - yep. actually let me go back and read the logs for that, you were saying some of the codecs need *both* imdct and fft ?
22:45:43mtthe imdct is based on an fft
22:46:19mtit's : pre-processing -> fft -> post-processing.
22:48:48mthehe - "...I tried that this evening (see attached mdct.[ch]), but it's *only about 30% faster* than the Vorbis MDCT for 2048 samples.." - (The vorbis-dev mailing list)
22:49:44stripwaxmt - agree with that, but wasn't sure about the need for having an fft library that *wasn't* part of the imdct library. and it sounded like you said we needed both imdct and fft for some codecs.. hang on let me find the irc log for that..
22:49:47stripwaxmt - right :)
22:50:24marek_hi i wanted to checkout only "/trunk/utils/MTP/beastpatcher" how can i do it with svn?
22:52:16stripwaxmt - right, "liba52 has its own mdct and fft implementation". it just needs imdct, is that right? it just so happens that its own mdct implementation contains an fft implementation . does rockbox *also* need an optimised fft implementation elsewhere?
22:52:27mtmarek_: svn co svn://svn.rockbox.org/rockbox/trunk/utils/MTP/beastpatcher beastpatcherDir
22:55:35marek_ehmmm
22:55:36marek_http://download.rockbox.org/bootloader/gigabeat-s/
22:55:38marek_404
22:55:51marek_where can i obtain bootloader.bin?
22:57:02mtstripwax: I don't remember what I said exactly, but what I meant is that liba52's mdct is fft-based, so if we could have an optimized fft, we could have a faster mdct than tremor's and it would be easier to use that with liba52. I hope what I'm saying makes sense :)
22:58:12stripwaxOk. Although we don't actually know that a52's mdct would be faster than tremor's if we optimised the fft (or do we?).
22:58:15mtOriginally I just wanted to use our mdct with liba52 .. but then it changed to : have a fast fft-based mdct and then use that with liba52.
22:59:09stripwaxas a starting point, could we just make liba52 use the codelib imdct? then we can *still* share an optimal imdct between all the codecs <maybe using a new imdct based on fft if we can find and optimise one>
22:59:20stripwax^codelib^codeclib
22:59:52stripwaxthinking that we'd want to share that New Faster Than Fast IMDCT with all codecs, so liba52 would need to be changed to use the codeclib api anyway
23:00
23:00:21stripwaxunless liba52 does windowing in-place (that could get a bit messy)
23:01:08mtI didn't know that .. I just discovered that it happened more than once that modifying the mdct in tremor to be an fft-based one, and using an optimized fft in it gave the decoder a nice speedup.
23:02:01mtI didn't know that -> I didn't know an optimized-fft-based mdct would be faster than tremor's
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23:03:11stripwaxmt yeah, I really do think those comparisons between unoptimised C implementation of Tremor's mdct and an optimised-fft-based mdct are unfair - I didn't see one that made sense
23:03:43stripwaxThis on the other hand looks fun (apologies if you've seen it before) http://www-math.mit.edu/~stevenj/preprints/ShaoJo07-dct4-preprint.pdf
23:05:58mtNo, haven't seen it before. Looks interesting :)
23:06:08 Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
23:06:43stripwaxquote - "This should not be confused with algorithms that employ an *unmodified* FFT combined with O(N) pre/post-processing steps to obtain the DCT"
23:12:03marek_where can i download bootloader.bin?
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23:16:52mtstripwax: The table shows the improvement to be ~4.6% for 2048-sample mdct.
23:17:48mtOf the previous of course (to which I don't know how the any fft at hand is related except that they all use a split-radix algorithm) :)
23:17:50stripwaxin terms of improvement over the prior 'state of the art', yes. but I don't see how much of that is Mults vs Adds, and we'd rather do more Adds if we can do fewer Mults
23:18:01stripwaxright :)
23:18:49amiconnThat depends on the cpu architcture, doesn't it?
23:20:18mtI think so, yes.
23:20:28*mt has to go for a while.
23:21:57stripwaxamiconn true but for the architectures that run rockbox, are there any that can always perform a 32x32->64bit mult in the same number of cycles as an add? Is that a coldfire thing?
23:22:28amiconnOn coldfire one should try to utilize the emac as much as possible, and that imlies balanced multiplies and adds
23:22:53amiconnARMv6 is another example
23:24:30amiconnARM7TDMI with its slow multiplier profits from as few mult as possible. I'm not sure about the v4 and v5 ARM9 targets, and have no idea what's best on mips
23:26:08amiconnstripwax: Those mac instructions are even better - they perform a multiply *and* an add in the same number of cycles (1) as a plain add
23:26:25Tornemul is still slower than add on arm9, but it's not as bad
23:26:36amiconn(provided the pipeline latencies are taken care of)
23:28:39domonokycould someone with a archos recoder try if the currently released archos recoder voicefile work ? It could be that they are too big again..
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23:53:23markunmarek_: sorry if poeple are ignoring you, but I don't know where to download it either
23:55:04DerPapstmeh.. just tried to compile a beast build... but is getting some lang related errors...
23:55:34DerPapstif i get it going i can compile a bootloader too. my build is way old :)
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