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#rockbox log for 2009-10-22

00:01:15 Join andrewRB [0] (n=andrewth@81.170.115.71)
00:01:55Casainho_domonoky: well, seems to work the touchscreenm however...
00:02:12 Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
00:02:38Casainho_domonoky: I don't understand it... since I don't see "any buttons". I did calibrated the touch
00:02:43 Quit Ubuntuxer ("Leaving.")
00:02:43 Join Thundercloud [0] (i=thunderc@81.187.69.84)
00:04:39 Join tomers [0] (n=chatzill@84.109.85.100)
00:04:43tomersgevaerts: ping
00:04:54domonokyCasainho_: by default rockbox touchscreen is in grid mode, you virtual (invisible grid of buttons on the screen). up /down etc, if you change to absolute mode, you can just touch the list elements, to select something.
00:05:01gevaertstomers: pong
00:05:05domonoky+have a
00:06:10Casainho_domonoky: I will try the absolute mode then
00:09:29tomersgevaerts: I'm implementing USB HID disabling setting. How do the USB stack knows not to enable the hid usb driver? Can I use global_settings inside firmware/ ?
00:09:56 Quit bertrik ("Leaving")
00:10:58 Quit Casainho (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:11:10 Quit dmb ("Leaving")
00:11:30tomersgevaerts: or what is the right place to disable the driver according to the setting (before someone plugs USB and it enumerates)?
00:11:53 Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:12:48 Part froggyman
00:13:03CtcpPing from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
00:13:51 Quit faemir (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:14:32gevaertstomers: I'm not sure. Normally global_settings shouldn't be used in firmware/. There's probably another common way to handle this sort of thing, but I don't know (maybe a callback in firmware/ that gets called when the setting is loaded/set?)
00:15:18gevaertstomers: did you see my patch in FS #10666? That one should have the logic for the actual disable right
00:15:37 Join Strife89 [0] (n=michael@adsl-154-3-172.mcn.bellsouth.net)
00:17:26tomersgevaerts: I saw it, but here's a more general solution: I've now posted FS #10704 - Make a configuration option to disable USB HID
00:17:26 Quit Utchybann (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:18:00tomersgevaerts: I'll continue tomorrow (going to sleep). Meanwhile post there if you have some solution to this. Maybe the solution will come in my dream :-) g'night
00:18:59 Join phanboy4 [0] (n=benji@c-24-98-43-198.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
00:19:16gevaertstomers: I think the setting should be separate from the keypad mode. People are working on other drivers as well (MTP), and we'll need settings for each device class then anyway
00:19:51*gevaerts has never done settings code. Probably someone else can say what the proper way to do firmware/ settings is
00:21:27 Quit bmbl ("Bye!")
00:21:34gevaertsMaybe we can rework the usb.c logic a bit so the settings code can call usb_core_enable_driver() directly?
00:22:09gevaertsthat gets in the way of the charge-only handling a bit of course
00:22:50 Join dmb [0] (n=Dmb@unaffiliated/dmb)
00:23:21 Join WilliamC [0] (n=WilliamC@r75-110-44-59.gvllcmtc01.gnvlnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net)
00:23:31WilliamCHow do I create a playlist in Rockbox?
00:24:16 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
00:24:48gevaertsWilliamC: the manual has a chapter about that I think
00:25:13markunWilliamC: I usually just keep the "select" button pressed in the file browser and then add stuff
00:25:37markunbut yes, maybe check the manual
00:25:41TheSeven17...18mA without undervolting
00:25:50TheSevenand 16...17mA with 0.95V
00:25:54TheSeventhat's not too good
00:26:01gevaertstomers: of course if we do that sort of selectability, we need to find a way to tell the user that what he asks isn't actually possible, which involves both some more USB logic rework and possibly some settings GUI creativity
00:26:10*TheSeven tries 0.925V
00:26:24markunTheSeven: what's the normal voltage?
00:26:29TheSeven1.075V
00:26:35*gevaerts isn't sure if we currently have settings that when set may make other settings unavailable
00:26:40WilliamCmarkun, I want to add everything
00:27:18JdGordon|gevaerts: tomers: the usual way to do firmware/ settings is have a firmware/ function which the settings code calls when the setting changes... that would then set a global variable in the relevant file.... i.e loook at the backlight setting
00:27:40*shotofadds was about to say that ;)
00:27:52*TheSeven needs a way to change clocks and voltages without rebooting rockbox :-)
00:28:01 Quit tomers (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
00:28:19markunTheSeven: a job for the debug menu :)
00:28:27shotofaddsTheSeven: people have hacked the debug screen to do that kind of thing in the past
00:28:30gevaertsJdGordon|: thanks! I suspected that it was something like that, but I wasn't entirely sure :)
00:28:41WilliamCgot it
00:28:58markunWilliamC: not too difficult, right?
00:29:15gevaertsTheSeven: write a plugin that lowers the voltage a bit, builds a playlist, starts playback, and when done lowers the voltage a bit more :)
00:29:31*TheSeven wonders why rockbox's playback is more sluggish at 75MHz than at 50MHz
00:29:35WilliamCmarkun, turns out, I don't need to create a playlist, it creates one on the fly
00:29:59TheSevengevaerts: and when I wake up again I'll have a wiped FTL and know nothing about the results
00:30:09WilliamCWhenever a song is selected from the File Browser with Select or Right, Rockbox will automatically create a playlist containing all of the songs in that directory and start playback with the selected song.
00:30:15WilliamCWhich is what I wanted
00:30:31markunWilliamC: I thought you wanted to make a playlist with all the music on your player..
00:30:48WilliamCIt's all in one folder
00:31:00gevaertsTheSeven: you use usb serial or HID to log to your PC :)
00:31:19 Quit AndyI (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:31:21TheSevenUSB may start to fail earlier than playback
00:31:40TheSevenwow. still alive at 0.900V
00:31:49gevaertsdoes that matter? Surely any failure is good enough to decide to stop?
00:31:58TheSevencurrent slightly below apple's now.
00:32:14TheSevengevaerts: what do i need USB for if i'm running off battery?
00:32:33gevaertsTheSeven: data connection?
00:32:50TheSevendata connection = charging
00:33:14TheSeventhis thing easily charges at 100mA USB
00:33:54gevaertsah, and you also want to log current I guess...
00:34:33TheSevenwell, I can disable the charger for that
00:34:33TheSeventhe bigger problem probably are current measurements affecting the current themselves
00:35:01 Quit Rob2222 (Remote closed the connection)
00:35:42TheSevenheh, funny. the CPU is specified at 1.1 to 1.3V, so apple is already undervolting it :-)
00:35:53 Quit ender` (" When I was a child... We had a quick-sand box in the backyard... I was an only child... eventually.")
00:36:44TheSevenrunning at 0.875V now
00:36:59TheSeven...but current isn't decreasing by much
00:37:13TheSevenI guess the total consumption of the SoC is around 5mA at most now
00:38:09TheSevenwhat do I need to implement to get boosting to work?
00:38:22gevaertsactually... How do you read the current measurements? From the screen?
00:38:23*TheSeven wants to go down to 50MHz when idle
00:38:29TheSevengevaerts: yes
00:38:40gevaertsis that readable without backlight?
00:38:43 Quit shotofadds ("Leaving")
00:38:45TheSevenyep.
00:38:49gevaertsah, ok.
00:38:54*gevaerts was getting suspicious
00:39:32TheSevenbut I guess doing ADC readings on both battery voltage and current 5 times a second isn't really reducing current :-P
00:40:00gevaertsmaybe not :)
00:40:28TheSeventhe backlight is quite efficient, too, it's around 10mA
00:40:56TheSevennow what's needed for boosting?
00:41:51TheSevenand does it hurt if the tick and user timers are a little sluggish during the process?
00:42:34 Quit arohtar (Client Quit)
00:42:39markunTheSeven: you have set_cpu_frequency implemented and CPUFREQ_* defined?
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00:42:48ercanihi
00:42:53 Join faemir [0] (n=faemir@78.33.109.163)
00:43:43ercanii saw jz4732 in rockbox.org
00:44:08TheSevenmarkun: do you know what's the difference between CPUFREQ_NORMAL and CPUFREQ_DEFAULT?
00:44:11ercaniit is also valid for jz4725 ?
00:44:20markunTheSeven: no, I don't remember
00:44:28markunyou also need to define HAVE_ADJUSTABLE_CPU_FREQ
00:46:05TheSevenand what should I take for CPU_FREQ?
00:46:07markunI wonder why I don't see the CPUFREQ_ defines in the other config- files
00:46:49markunI'm also just reading the source now..
00:47:20TheSevenno boosting expert around?
00:47:47TheSeventhe nasty part is that I'll need to re-sync some PLLs before switching
00:48:15markunah, maybe DEFAULT is the value you get after the bootloader
00:48:52markunbut perhaps better to wait for someone who knows more about it yes :)
00:49:16markunI experimented a bit with boosting on the gigabeat, but it didn't give us any runtime gain
00:49:24 Quit dmb (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:50:08***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:00
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01:07:42TheSevenouch... rockbox at 1.8MHz looks nice
01:07:51TheSevensomething must have failed while re-locking on the PLL
01:07:57 Join dmb [0] (n=Dmb@unaffiliated/dmb)
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01:09:13ercanianybody knows about jz4725?
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01:12:47TheSevenok, boosting works just fine, first try!
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01:13:34TheSevenwe're definitely below apple's current now, and much below our old one (30%)
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01:18:41*TheSeven notices weird sampling rate changes during boosting...
01:21:52 Quit ercani ("Leaving")
01:23:09TheSeventhe only explanation i have for that is the system bus getting too slow for the dma
01:29:37TheSevenough
01:29:45TheSevenguess what was going on there
01:30:32TheSeventhe low voltage seems to have lead to a noticably reduces oscillator speed!
01:32:11 Quit Thundercloud_ (Remote closed the connection)
01:32:55 Quit JdGordon| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
01:35:51 Join MethoS- [0] (n=clemens@134.102.106.250)
01:38:08TheSevena 7% frequency drop!
01:39:28TheSevenand 1.5% one step higher
01:39:32TheSevenso we can't go below 0.9V
01:39:39 Join JdGordon1 [0] (n=jonno@m2b0e36d0.tmodns.net)
01:39:57 Quit efyx_ (Remote closed the connection)
01:41:36TheSevenbut it doesn't really do the UI sluggishness any goos
01:41:38JdGordon1double checking.... the info in the rec statusbar is all settings display right?
01:41:39TheSevengood*
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01:44:26 Part toffe82
01:44:59 Quit DerPapst ("Leaving.")
01:47:58*TheSeven just decided to do a battery bench tonight
01:51:32 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@85.214.97.64)
01:58:58 Join Casainho [0] (n=chatzill@87.196.99.38)
02:00
02:01:05TheSevenmy battery is only around 95%, but that's sufficient for a ball park number
02:01:19*TheSeven hopes he'll break the magic 24h limit
02:10:04 Quit Casainho_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:10:39 Quit JdGordon1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
02:19:03CasainhoBob_C: http://lyre.sourceforge.net/?q=content/touch-screen-now-working-lyre-mini2440
02:19:22CasainhoJdGordon: Here is a video showing touchpad working: http://lyre.sourceforge.net/?q=content/touch-screen-now-working-lyre-mini2440
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02:34:48 Quit fyrestorm ("lamers envy me like they envy bill g -- main boot xp, just the way it should be!")
02:34:51james12131Hello
02:35:12james12131I'm having a problem playing Doom on my iPod Nano 2nd Generation that I just loading Rockbox onto today
02:35:15 Join fyrestorm [0] (n=nnscript@cpe-69-203-148-25.si.res.rr.com)
02:35:18james12131It says missing WAD or something
02:35:33 Join bubsy [0] (n=bubsy@94.139.72.137)
02:35:34evilnickHave you put the .wad file onto the nano?
02:35:57james12131I copied the .rockbox folder from the nano 2nd Gen build
02:36:03james12131I see the folder on the iPod
02:37:16evilnickjames12131: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginDoom#Install_the_Game_WADs
02:37:29james12131Ok thanks
02:37:32james12131Also one other thing
02:37:40evilnickAlthough as the 2nd gen nano is *such* a new port, I would not be surprised if it doesn't work
02:37:46james12131oh
02:37:54james12131well after I unplugged it and played around with it
02:38:01james12131I plugged it back in and now I don't see any folder
02:38:15james12131I know the folders are on there because I can unplug and listen to music or play games
02:38:38evilnickfolders starting with a dot '.rockbox' are automatically hidden on some OSs - are you using a Mac or Linux?
02:38:38james12131It's showing up in My Computer just with nothing in it
02:38:51james12131Windows XP, I made it so I can see hidden files
02:38:58james12131I don't even see the notes or calendar etc
02:39:21james12131The nano shows the rockbox charging screen
02:39:31 Quit Casainho (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
02:39:49evilnickAre you sure that it's the Rockbox charging screen and not the Apple charging screen?
02:40:26james12131Yes, it shows the logo of the usb plug in and says "multimedia mode"
02:40:31*evilnick confesses that he's not very familiar with the 2nd Gen Nano port
02:40:33james12131and when I press a button it lights up
02:40:46james12131It shows up in My Computer but just with nothing in it
02:41:17evilnickTry right-clicking it, and choosing Properties
02:41:29james12131It says 0 bytes
02:41:36james12131File system: Unknown
02:41:58evilnickCan you run chkdsk on it?
02:42:12james12131How do I do that?
02:42:23james12131Error-checking?
02:45:26evilnickOpen a command prompt, then type: chkdsk E: /F (change E: to the drive letter that the nano is shown as in Windows Explorer
02:45:32evilnick)
02:46:21james12131"Cannot open volume for direct access"
02:46:46evilnickYou'll probably have to be logged in as an administrator
02:46:55james12131I am logged in as admin
02:47:04james12131I'm the only account on my comuter
02:47:10james12131computer
02:47:50evilnickHmmm, try disconnecting the nano then reconnecting again
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02:50:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:50:23james12131Not working, still same error
02:50:49james12131I'm gonna try hooking it up to my vista computer, maybe that'll make it work
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02:52:22 Part andrewRB ("bye peeps")
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02:55:03james12131It's not even showing up in My Computer on vista
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02:55:19james12131It said it installed the device driver but nothing happened after
02:55:54james12131oh wait now it shows up in iTunes
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02:58:51james12131Can not open volume for direct access when I tried to do chkdsk
02:59:05james12131Is there a way to manually restore the iPod to factory settings without using iTunes?
02:59:44CIA-85New commit by 03blue_dude (r23314): Code cleanup in dsp.c and misc.c, some comments
03:00
03:00:11james12131Nevermind, iTunes recognizes it
03:01:21james12131Oh sweet I can see the folder now
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03:29:53CIA-85New commit by 03rmenes (r23315): Add a blind description for the Sansa Fuze and e200v2 manuals.
03:39:44james12131Hey
03:39:46james12131I have a quick question
03:39:51james12131How can I put a video on my rockbox
03:46:04james12131nevermind
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04:00
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04:21:09CrackerizerHello,
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04:21:53Crackerizercan somebody tell me where the arabjoin library is used?
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06:11:03JdGordonamiconn: ping when you wake up
06:11:37 Quit Strife89 ("Bed.")
06:35:51JdGordonkugel: button bar is "broken".. (not that you or anyone else would care....) it covers the bottom item in the lists
06:41:10JdGordonDOH! you cant do alternating sublines in [arts of the lines.... (no shit sherlock :p )
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07:00:46*JdGordon loves it when shit just magically works :)
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07:37:11*JdGordon seems to have removed too much code :p
07:45:00JdGordon24 files changed, 42 insertions(+), 339 deletions(-) :D
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09:21:36TheSevenevilnick_: doom *does* work. it was about the first thing we tried to make work. :-D
09:22:00 Quit faemir ("Leaving")
09:24:03TheSevenand concerning that guy tonight: no idea where he got an usb-enabled build from, but it's probably an old one with lots of FTL bugs, so it doesn't really surprise me if he can't see anything on it if he's using rockbox USB
09:26:09*ThomasAH always reads FTL as faster-than-light :)
09:27:28ThomasAH... and therefore finally looked it up: Flash Transition Layer
09:27:55TheSeventranslation*
09:28:02TheSeventheseven/battery_bench.txt.7z">http://l4n.clustur.com/data/theseven/battery_bench.txt.7z umm... WTF?
09:28:50ThomasAHTheSeven: is "wtf is 7z?" your question?
09:29:09TheSevennope, the contents of that huge battery bench log i compressed using 7z
09:29:32ThomasAHwhoa, 7MB compressed to 2K :)
09:29:46TheSevenmy ipod was stuck in a panic for all night after that, and the battery doesn't seem to have discharged during that either, still at 4.25V
09:31:20TheSevenThomasAH: that's battery bench on drugs, huh?
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10:26:14TheSevenbah, pcmbuf is too slow even with FIQs
10:26:56TheSevenso we definitely can't avoid changing something in there for the nano2g
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10:56:21TheSevenhm, rolo still fails more often than not...
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10:57:24amiconnTheSeven: There must be some pcm fifo...
10:58:30TheSevenamiconn: yes, for one single sample
10:59:15TheSeventhey probably designed this for auto-reloading DMA, which we can't do because of rockbox's pcmbuf architecture, i think
11:00
11:00:12TheSeventhe problem I'm having right now is that the interrupt lockout while boosting/unboosting is high enough to result in a pop/click
11:00:15amiconnNah, a larger one
11:00:22amiconnWhat's auto-reloading dma?
11:00:55amiconnOther targets don't lock out interrupts during boosting, for that reason (and more)
11:00:59TheSevenyou can tell the DMA to just go back to the beginning of the buffer once it's finished, and you have a half completion interrupt
11:01:39TheSevenamiconn: *if* a FIQ manages to come in during boosting, it'll starve because of the CPU clock being at 1.8MHz
11:02:26TheSevenso you can usually just update the buffer half the DMA has just played while it's playing the other one
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11:03:19amiconnHmm, weird thing
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11:04:02amiconnWhy would it starve? Ok, that clock *is* low, although on the coldfire targets the base clock is ~11MHz
11:04:30TheSevenamiconn: on the other S5L8700 targets it's even worse (32kHz)
11:04:32amiconnUnboosted clock in rockbox is 45MHz (4* base), boosted is 124MHz (11* base)
11:05:17amiconnDuring clock change, the cpu runs from the base clock. PLL relock can take up to 10ms (yes *milli*seconds), typically 2ms
11:05:26TheSevenamiconn: S5L8700: base 32kHz, unboosted 48MHz, boosted 192MHz, S5L8701: base 1.8MHz, unboosted 48MHz, boosted 192MHz
11:05:58TheSevenamiconn: yes, and we have an FIQ latency requirement of ~20µS right now
11:06:27amiconnAudio is played using DMA on coldfire, and the completion interrupt just sets up the new dma
11:06:52amiconnThere's an 8-sample fifo in the i2s controller iirc
11:07:08TheSevenyes, which means you've got a lot more time
11:07:39amiconnI think it should be doable to use this dma reload and half-completion without changing the whole architecture
11:07:49amiconnIt will mean memcpying data though
11:08:11TheSevenanother issue is that this auto-reloading DMA doesn't seem to work at all for me right now
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11:11:15TheSeven"Reload enable. If “1”, after whole completion of DMA, channel controller automatically restart the same DMA without commands."
11:11:22TheSeven...but it just doesn't do it.
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11:16:33*TheSeven just spotted that the apple DMA code seems to assume there are 9 DMA channels instead of 4
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11:20:44kugelrasher: ping
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11:32:43TheSevenamiconn: Apple diagmode seems to be doing it the same way we are, they just have low-enough latencies
11:32:52amiconno.O 9 DMA channels
11:33:18TheSevenyes, we've made lots of such baffling discoveries
11:33:48amiconnThat's.... plenty. Almost as strange as the 5 timers in the SH7034
11:34:03kugelnano2g as 5 times too apparently
11:34:11kugeltimers*
11:34:45amiconnMost other SoCs only have two
11:35:44TheSevennano has 4 programmable 16bit timers and a 64bit timer that counts the CPU clock / 1024
11:36:56kugelso it's dependant on the cpu clock? i.e. will count different when unboosted? that doesn't make up for a good usec_timer
11:37:43TheSevenkugel: we'll find a hack for that
11:37:59TheSevenbut yes, it seems to behave like this
11:38:22TheSevenas far as i can tell, apple is always running that thing at full speed, so it didn't hurt them
11:38:49amiconnThe PP usec timer is actually nice. The PP's programmable timers are also based on that 1MHz clock
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12:02:07Unhelpfulkugel: cpu-clock-cycle counters aren't really intended as timekeepers, they're of more value for performance measurement... although the 1Ki-cycle divider makes it not so hot for that, either :/
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12:06:35kugelI wonder why it's 64bit anyway.
12:07:26kugelthe clock isn't high enough to ever overflow 32bit, and then it's even scaled down by another 2^-10
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12:28:47*TheSeven|Mobile needs to re-check that timer later
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12:29:36TheSeven|Mobilebtw what about trying to power down everything except the lcd in system_exception_wait?
12:30:33TheSeven|Mobile(including the cpu itself, so that it powers back up and resets if one presses a button)
12:31:35kugelerm, sure why not? :9
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12:55:35jakobbghi there. as of today, is there any light in the tunnel regarding support for ipod classic?
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12:59:43Tornejakobbg: There's nobody in particular working on it, afaik
12:59:50TornePeople are doing nano 2g which is a similar processor
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13:10:47distant_voicehi, I have a question. I plan on buying a Sansa Fuze. The trader on ebay says the installed firmware is V01.02.28F. On another item the trades says the firmware is v02.01.09a. Will I be able to install Rockbox on both?
13:11:39distant_voiceI have read the SansaFAQ. Since it says that the version 2 Fuzes all have firmware starting with 03.xx.xx both items should be version 1 Fuzes right?
13:13:40topikno fuze firmware starts with 03.
13:13:55topikfirmware that starts with 01 is rev 1, and has 'unstable' rockbox support
13:14:07topikfirmware that starts with 02 is rev 2 and is not supported
13:14:20gevaertsthe SansaFAQ doesn't say that
13:14:51gevaertsit's outdated, but it's talking about c200 and e200 there, not fuze
13:15:28topiktry this one, distant_voice : http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMS
13:16:55distant_voicethanks for the help
13:17:16distant_voiceI'll go with the V01.02.28F then if that'll work for sure.
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13:18:09distant_voiceunstable is enough for me, it looks like the developers are still active
13:18:37topikit is far from actually unstable
13:18:54topikbut there are issues disqualifying it to be called 'stable'
13:19:05distant_voiceyeah I heard it works pretty well
13:19:29topiki use it intensively without meaningful issues
13:19:51distant_voiceV01.02.28F is going to be okay then? what are the issues you encounter?
13:20:41topikhaving to reboot to the original firmware for usb use could be called an issue
13:20:52topiki have no stability problems or such
13:21:07topikthat V01.02.28F one is a V1
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13:21:16distant_voiceso I have to use the old firmware to put files on it? what about charging it?
13:21:46topikcharging works in rockbox, but when you put in the usb cable it will reboot to the original firmware. unless you hold the select button while doing so
13:22:38distant_voiceI can use SDHC cards with up to 16gb with it right?
13:22:55topikthe specs says so yes. i have only tried up to 8GB myself
13:23:11distant_voicethat's awesome
13:23:20distant_voicedo you scrobble your tracks too?
13:23:33distant_voicebecause that's one of the main reasons I want to put Rockbox on it
13:24:11topikwhat's a scrobble?
13:24:34distant_voicedo you know last.fm? it's a social networking site for music
13:24:44topikah, i don't do that
13:24:56distant_voiceok, maybe you should check it out
13:25:10topiki should rent some friends first then though
13:25:23distant_voicehaha, I don't have friends on there neither
13:25:31distant_voiceI just registered for the statistics
13:25:39distant_voicewww.last.fm/user/distant_voice
13:26:34topikcan't rockbox keep playback statistics itself?
13:27:16topikit does have a last.fm log option though, so i guess that's what you want
13:27:17distant_voiceyes, that's why it CAN submit your listened tracks to last.fm. most other firmwares don't support it
13:27:43distant_voiceI think ipod can do it and that's it
13:28:11topikthe 'database' feature can collect runtime data to. but that's probably harder to export
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13:32:30distant_voicewell, I just bought the Fuze on ebay. Thanks for your help
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13:59:17topiknano 2g clickwheel is a bit sensitive. just touching it without movement allready triggers is
13:59:20topikit
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14:29:57jakobbgTorne: Thanks for the info. Not in the forseeable future, that is :-).
14:34:03Tornejakobbg: it's *possible*, because the linux4nano guys figured out the exploit to run code on the classic. But, someone who actually has a classic needs to step up and do the work. :)
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14:55:17jakobbgExactly. And that sploit-discovery isn't that new, so I shouldn't keep my breath, no? :)
14:55:19preglowanyone know what happens if i use a power adapter with a lower current rating than the device it's charging? :>
14:55:50jakobbgpreglow: Device?
14:59:54Tornepreglow: depending on the device and the charger, it may either charge slower, or the charger might get very hot, or the charger might catch fire/explode, or the charger might just pop an internal fuse and stop working :)
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15:00:54Tornecheap "brick" style power adapters are likely to fall into the "get hot and maybe catch fire" category. Switchmode power supplies generally fall into the "charge slower" category. But I wouldn't rely on that too much :)
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15:03:48preglowtalking h120 here
15:04:06preglowthe original adapter has stopped working, on all i got is an adjustable one that is rated 0.5 amperes lower
15:04:29preglowand yeah, it's light and thin, so pretty sure it's switched mode style
15:04:32jakobbgjust try it. if it says charging, it does, albeit slower.
15:04:49Torneit's very unlikely to damage the *device*.
15:04:56jakobbg:-)
15:05:00preglowi doubt the adpter will die either
15:05:05TorneProbably not, no.
15:05:16preglowi'll give it a try laters
15:05:20jakobbgStand back for implosion!
15:05:21Tornebut it may get significantly warmer than it does normally, so, er, watch out for that :)
15:05:36preglowwatch out for heat, check
15:05:57jakobbgand wormholes, of course.
15:06:06preglowh120 is getting glitchy like hell anyway, i should give myself a kick in the rear and start to do more work on the d2
15:06:14preglowbattery suffers something mad
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16:52:29rasherkugel: hm?
16:53:27vandenHi. Love rockbox; thanks bunches. Currently have a big problem.
16:53:28vandenUsing recent build of rockbox on a Sansa e200 with ubuntu 9.04. 9.04 has broken gphoto so I cannot access my player as a MSD.
16:53:32vandenUsed to access fine via nautilus. Still can access, but no files I add can be seen by rockbox.
16:53:35vandenThey are all there when I browse the player with nautilus on the desktop. But, cannot be played as rockbox can't see them.
16:53:39vandenI've googled around, but no joy. Any suggestions?
16:53:56kugelrasher: I want to remove the brackets around the LANG_ID3_* strings (for all languages), how would I do it best?
16:54:34kugelalso, can I do it without deprecating?
16:55:01gevaertsvanden: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/LibGphoto2Bug
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16:55:33rasherkugel: I'm not sure there's a simple way. You can use langtool to change the source in all languages. Other than that, I think we're back at manual editing. Are brackets used anywhere else? If not, you could just sed them out..
16:56:55vandengevaerts: Thanks. I will look into that (just skimmed it). But, I was able to add files via nautilus until quite recently.
16:56:55vandenAny ideas as to why that used to work and has now stopped working?
16:57:34gevaertssorry, no. hal+gphoto are mysteries to me that I avoid at all costs
16:57:35kugelrasher: I can live with manual editing. So can I change source without deprecating?
16:58:02rasherkugel: I don't think that should be a problem
16:58:14vandengevaerts: OK, well thanks. Perhaps the work around for gphoto will also solve the problem I came here with :-)
16:58:44kugelalright. the brackets can be added at runtime. but they're nasty when used in the wps (using %Sx)
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17:07:29Bob_Ccan someone give me access to wiki? I want to update the Mini2440 page
17:07:51Bob_Cmy wikiname is BobC
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17:12:13mc2739pixelma: Please look at FS #10712 when you get a chance.
17:13:08vandengevaerts: Thanks again for the help. Just to let you know: I followed the page and had no joy.
17:13:42vandengevaerts: I think I will just wait for the soon to be released Ubuntu karmic which I am told fixed gphoto. Thanks anyway.
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17:28:23ED_209hey, do I report bugs in here?
17:29:14Torneyou might discuss them here if you're not sure if it's a bug
17:29:15rasherED_209: You report them on flyspray (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySpray) but it doesn't hurt to discuss it here first
17:29:32ED_209ok with my h300 the metronome doesn't work at all
17:29:48ED_209sync button doesn't work
17:30:32ED_209doesn't play
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17:30:48ED_209can't quit out of it, you have to shut the box off
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17:31:27ED_209I'm pretty sure that's a bug
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17:32:44ED_209the only things that "work" are the bmp up and volume controls, nothing else works, and you can't quit out of it. being a musican driven iriver this metronome is one of the handier features, plus I use it to count my heartrate
17:33:25ED_209so can you submit that as a bug?
17:34:22gevaertsED_209: FS #10546
17:34:26ED_209only the new version of it does that, I had a slightly older version that worked fine, but the pitch detector is a really useful function, probably better than the metronome. but if they all worked that would be awesome.
17:34:45ED_209what's that
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17:35:18ED_209also, when I save a game in "superdom" and quit out of it, there is no option to load the game... this is another bug
17:35:37ED_209what's that FS#blah
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17:37:01ED_209surely everyone with an h340 would be running the same firmware as me and having the same problems?
17:37:16ED_209or does rockbox not work that way?
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17:38:26gevaertsED_209: that's a bug number. http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10546
17:39:43ED_209how do I get around it?
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17:40:52WilliamCDo the daily builds suck up more battery?
17:41:05evilnick_BED_209: You hope that someone fixes this bug, or use an earlier version that doesn't have the bug
17:41:53ED_209when is the next release of rockbox for the iriver h300 expected? (or can you tell me how to find that info)
17:43:35evilnick_BED_209: Approx. every 3 months, so the next one would be around christmas time
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17:45:28TorneWilliamC: current builds are different than releases in many ways; in theory each one should be no less power efficient than the last but occasionally people make mistakes :)
17:45:38ED_209do you know if there's a big h300 following? these things do more than anything else on the market and are selling for a FORTUNE on ebay considering they're 5 years old
17:45:47WilliamCTorne, thought so.
17:46:03TorneWilliamC: I wouldn't be worried, personally
17:46:13TorneIf you find battery life is worse, then that's a bug
17:46:14Tornereport it.
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17:46:27WilliamCTorne, I haven't.
17:46:34WilliamCActually, I was wondering the other way.
17:46:36Tornewe generally should get better over time, until targets are very mature, at which point it changes little.
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17:59:49ED_209can you import new plugins to old versions of rockbox?
18:00
18:04:20JdGordonamiconn: you around?
18:04:20evilnick_BED_209: My understanding is that you generally can't do that, as plugins are written for a specific build (or possibly API) - but I will be corrected if I've got that wrong.
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18:09:04robin0800quassel irc says I'm banned from this rockbox channel is that true?
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18:12:53gevaertsrobin0800: investigating
18:15:27gevaertsrobin0800: in june you apparently had some sort of issue which caused you to open a lot of connections. Our trusty logbot didn't like that and banned you
18:15:32Mode"#rockbox +o gevaerts " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
18:15:45Mode"#rockbox -b *!*n=quassel@*.brig.cable.ntl.com " by gevaerts (n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts)
18:16:12Mode"#rockbox -o gevaerts " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
18:17:02gevaertsrobin0800: you should be able to connect again now
18:21:12robin0800gevaerts: many thanks
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18:30:53TorneED_209: loading new plugins on older versions of rockbox will sometimes work, sometimes not, depending what the versions in question are. If developers have been careful to bump the plugin API version correctly, though, then in the cases where it doesn't work, Rockbox will tell you that it can't load the plugin, rather than load it and then go horribly wrong.
18:31:03TorneSame applies to the other way round, also
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18:50:29***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:00
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19:23:56AlexPBob_C: You need to sign up with your real name for the wiki
19:24:45Bob_CAlexp: ok
19:26:28 Quit Zarggg ()
19:26:48Bob_CMy wiki name is BobCousins
19:27:50AlexPBob_C: OK, done
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19:28:19Bob_Cmany thanks. Should BobC be deleted?
19:28:19pixelmamc2739: damn, I have a patch for that in the pipe too, I'm just a bit unsure about the following - pictureflow uses core actions for a great part so we could use the corresponding \ActionSomething macros which would help us getting rid of a lot of \opts but there are two exceptions - one is a minor thing (H10 and scrollwheel targets) - and the M3 (no official manual yet but) which doesn't use core actions but remote actions
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19:28:49AlexPBob_C: Probably, but only the Swedes can do that, so I wouldn't worry tto much
19:29:29pixelmamc2739: that means every main line would have to start with a \nopt{IAUDIO_M3_PAD} or that one would need a seperate table
19:29:46pixelmamc2739: I could add my version there for comparison though
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19:31:04pixelmaI'm also not a 100% sure if that \ActionSomething I used is correct in all cases, need to check that
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19:45:04CIA-85New commit by 03Domonoky (r23316): Working Bootloader for mini2440. ...
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19:47:51domonokyBob_C: your newest patch is now in svn. Now awaiting the patch for the main-binary :-)
19:48:53Bob_Cdomonoky: thanks! I was just looking at the audio, looks like I need some bit banging routines
19:50:50domonokybit-banging for i2c to the audio codec ?
19:51:40*gevaerts isn't sure what to think in the D2-hold debate...
19:51:50Bob_CI found the generic i2c , but this codec uses an "L3" interface
19:52:40TheSevenBob_C: which codec is it?
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19:52:52Bob_CIts the UDA1341
19:53:03*domonoky thinks there is a generic bitbanging i2c driver in rockbox, you just need to provide some definitions of the pins to use.
19:53:47Bob_CL3 looks more like SPI to me
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19:54:52TheSevenBob_C: the SOC should have an I2S controller, right?
19:55:16Bob_CYes, I2S is used for data. L3 is used for control
19:55:34TheSevenoh right
19:55:43TheSeven(even though they named the I2S pins a little weird
19:55:43*Llorean thinks Rob Purchase doesn't understand that touchscreens aren't the only physical interfaces without much or any tactile feedback.
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19:57:39TheSevenBob_C: but this doesn't look like SPI to me at all
19:57:46domonokyBob_C: looks like it shouldnt be too hard to make a L3-bus driver. there are various examples for this on the net.
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19:59:05kugelmy mini2440 arrived
20:00
20:00:52domonokykugel: nice :-)
20:04:53kugelno power adapter though :(
20:05:36domonokya h120 charger works fine. :-)
20:10:56kugelI have no such charger
20:12:31JdGordon|kugel: keeping the bitmap icons in means adding another skin token to be able to display it (although we already agreed we want this)...
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20:14:24kugelJdGordon: I have no problem with that
20:15:04JdGordon|just needs someone to do it :)
20:15:21JdGordon|bearing in mind it wont be so simple
20:15:21JdGordon|bareing
20:15:21JdGordon|baring
20:15:39JdGordon|whaterer-ing
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20:16:45Lloreankugel: If you're going to call a mode "crippled" maybe explain how it is? What features of the software are inaccessible in that mode?
20:17:18JdGordon|oh no! not again... please canw e not have that argument again?
20:17:39LloreanJdGordon|: We're going to have this argument as long as someone's trying to convince people to remove a useful feature.
20:18:26LloreanEspecially in favour of a far inferior feature.
20:19:17WilliamCDeLlorean?:P
20:19:42LloreanJdGordon|: And even more especially if people throw around emotionally weighted terms like "crippled" rather than trying to actually discuss what functionality it lacks.
20:19:56LloreanI mean, it's just Kugel being Kugel again in that sense, but it's pretty damn annoying.
20:21:07JdGordon|its a stupid argument because both versions can be seen as beign crippled
20:21:12AlexPIndeed
20:21:19AlexPAnd both should stay
20:21:25JdGordon|yes
20:21:33AlexPWith absolute touch (not grid) as default
20:21:49JdGordon|yes, because that is what people expect when they see a touch screen
20:21:50LloreanCrippled how?
20:21:50Bob_CI feel like this is a dumb question, but how do I login and logout of the wiki?
20:22:11WilliamCThat's a dumb question...
20:22:11AlexPBob_C: You'll get asked to log in when you press edit
20:22:11LloreanGrid doesn't leave anything inaccessible to anyone, by what definition is it "crippled" beyond simply being "less efficient for some users"?
20:22:21AlexPBob_C: Dunno about log out
20:22:37LloreanAlexP: Then there needs to be a way to change to grid blindly while in absolute mode.
20:22:38JdGordon|crippled in the sense that it doesnt work how one would expect it
20:22:44JdGordon|unless they knew they were in that mode
20:22:46LloreanJdGordon|: That's not what "crippled" means.
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20:23:06AlexPLlorean: That can be done as part of the install if necessary
20:23:15domonokyLlorean: but the Grid mode is also very uncommon for touch. if you dont know the concept, you wont be able to use the dap. so absolute mode as default is good.
20:23:43Lloreandomonoky: We have a manual though.
20:23:46gevaertsbertrik: do you remember if the meizu M3 hold switch is software only?
20:23:58LloreanMy point is that a sighted user can learn to use grid by reading, a blind one can't use absolute by any means.
20:24:02Bob_CalexP: when I press edit, it gives me access denied, but it seems to think I am logged in as BobC.
20:24:11LloreanAlexP: It should be part of the install. My point is that until it *can* be, it needs to be in the more accessible mode at first.
20:24:13AlexPBob_C: ah
20:24:43LloreanAlexP: But my bigger point is that the accessible mode needs to not be removed. Despite what people keep saying, it's quite easy to use next/prev and vol up/down blindly in grid mode. Very, very easy.
20:24:47AlexPLlorean: Then we have instructions under a blind mode heading telling people how to edit the settings file
20:24:57LloreanThat's acceptable.
20:24:57*gevaerts thinks that the grid mode discussion and the hold-as-mode-key discussion should be kept separate
20:25:01AlexPLlorean: I completely agree that it shouldn't be removed
20:25:02JdGordon|No one is seriously suggesting out right removing the mode
20:25:08*domonoky long wanted to make a settings editor for rbutil, but i still dont have a way to get a updtodate list of all possible values :-)
20:25:22LloreanAlexP: The manual probably needs a "first time setup for blind users" section that's far more explicit than the basic "how to set up voice"
20:25:35LloreanJdGordon|: Read the mailing list. Rob Purchase and Kugel both are.
20:25:35AlexPLlorean: Yes, that'd probably help a lot
20:26:02domonokyas a first step, we could also just provide a "blind-friendly" config file for download.
20:26:54AlexPgevaerts makes a good point too - I don't know why blind people would be buying a touch screen device
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20:27:29Bagderbecause it runs rockbox? ;-)
20:27:36LloreanAlexP: Because with Rockbox they *can* use it.
20:27:46Bob_CIf the screen had a braille overlay, would it be more useful?
20:27:53LloreanIt's a small, light player, flash based, uses full size SD cards, has a radio.
20:28:32LloreanWith the grid based controls it's really barely harder to use than a Gigabeat F's touchpad.
20:30:05JdGordon|"I'm getting tired of hearing "I can't use it that way, so surely nobody can" mentality when someone here (me) has actually done so quite successfully." <- why is that any more annoying than hearing "I can use it that way.. so surely anybody else could too"...
20:30:16Lloreandomonoky: There'd still need to be ones specific to each player, right? Especially if there were player or feature-specific accessibility features like the grid screen buttons.
20:30:51LloreanJdGordon|: That's a silly comparison. "I can use it" is proof that "nobody can" is wrong. "I can use it" is *not* proof that "anybody can" is true.
20:31:38LloreanI never said "anybody can" but Kugel said he highly doubts it can be used that way, and I'm just tired of him saying that simply because he can't use it that way.
20:32:17domonokyLlorean: not really specific to players, more like specific features. For the start it only needs the touchscreen setting. Everything else should be fine at moment :-)
20:32:21LloreanThe fact is, removing grid mode is removing a unique accessibility feature. Arguing that it isn't one because *he* can't use it is wrong.
20:32:44kugelstupid "that's silly" vs "no, that's silly" discussions..
20:33:01domonokyits also removing a working feature.. why should we do that, if it causes no harm ?
20:33:22Lloreankugel: Well, don't claim it's unlikely something can be used in a way someone's long since told you he's using it.
20:33:23gevaertslet's forget about grid mode and discuss what the actual issue is, i.e. do we want an optional hold-as-a-modifier?
20:33:24pixelmakugel: have you ever tried a touch screen device (yet)?
20:33:38AlexPgevaerts: NO, IMO
20:33:44AlexPer, No :)
20:33:53AlexPI didn't mesan to be quite so emphatic :)
20:34:02gevaertsAlexP: I'm not convinced either way yet, so why?
20:34:02kugelpixelma: I've had one in my hands a few times, and the sims with mouse
20:34:15Lloreangevaerts: I don't feel strongly against hold as a modifier. I'm slightly against it, but mostly in the sense "it's a minor feature without any real necessity, and would require yet another option in the settings" than anything else.
20:34:16domonokygevaerts: maybe a configure option to specify which buttons are exempt from hold ? :-)
20:34:17JdGordon|gevaerts: the argument is customisability.... I wouldnt mind that patch as an option... but how can tha be accepted when choosing the rec buttons action is rejected?
20:35:08LloreanAlso, yes, there's no good way to simply make it a modifier other than choosing to replicate explicitly OF behaviour, or come up with some sort of mapping and configuration screen for the button modes while hold is on.
20:35:12AlexPgevaerts: a) hold is hold, it disables buttons and b) where does it stop? Does just volume work? Or if not, then skip too? Then why not xyz
20:35:50pixelmamaybe a mode you cold enable by holding a certain "button" or screen area while switching hold, if that is technically possible? Somehow similar to keep Rockbox running on USB connect
20:35:50gevaertsLlorean: "minor" is subjective. Let's not use that argument :)
20:36:18Lloreangevaerts: Okay, "solves a problem that can already be solved with existing functionality"?
20:36:34gevaertsAlexP: what if the button is called "mode" instead of "hold"?
20:36:41pixelmaso usual switching hold would do nothing only knowledgeable people could do it
20:36:58AlexPgevaerts: Then it'd be unexpected that some buttons stopped working
20:36:59Lloreangevaerts: If the physical label of the button is "mode" that's different.
20:37:09LloreanThe D2 uses a Lock image on the button, though
20:38:02pixelmakugel: sounds more like a "no" to me ;)
20:38:08gevaertspixelma: that could work I think
20:38:18kugelpixelma: it was a yes
20:38:30gevaertsWhy is it acceptable to use hold to exit plugins on ipod?
20:39:07Lloreangevaerts: A _necessary_ evil I think. The iPods are one of the more button-limited players. Weren't we at some point working on removing that?
20:39:14pixelmakugel: having one in your hand doesn't mean real use to me and mouse in sims is quite different than a device in your pocket
20:39:20gevaertsLlorean: "there's another way to do it" sounds like a great argument against the volume buttons. You can set the volume in settings!
20:39:21pixelmadifferent to
20:39:45Lloreanpixelma: To be fair, the touch screen is restrictive in the pocket (but buttons can be too depending on pockets) but the blind use is pretty usable in, say, a car where you're just using it one-handed.
20:40:17bertrikgevaerts, no, the meizu m3 you loaned to me has no hold switch ... so I never tried to do anything with it
20:40:26bertrikI guess it's just a pin that software can read
20:40:28Lloreangevaerts: But there are also explicitly marked physical volume buttons.
20:40:31pixelmaok, still different to using a mouse in the sim in the middle of your monitor
20:40:33gevaertsbertrik: oh indeed... We destroyed it :(
20:40:46JdGordon|gevaerts: the difference between the grid and the mr100 is that the grid doesnt give *any* indication of where to press or why pressing there does something.... the mr100 has some sort of lighting to help you out
20:40:51Lloreanpixelma: Very. Sim+Mouse isn't indicative at all. '
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20:41:07LloreanJdGordon|: Blind users were one topic of discussion. Lighting probably doesn't help them much either.
20:41:10JdGordon|sim+touchscreen laptop though :)
20:41:16LloreanThough I'm pretty sure the mr100 is *harder* to use blind than the D2
20:41:28LloreanThe D2 you can feel around the edge of the screen to know orientation without risking touching a touch area.
20:41:43JdGordon|Llorean: I dont tihnk so.. these targets arent going to be used by blind users... its sighted that dont want to look at the screen
20:41:47gevaertsAlexP: the proposed action is skip. The D2 only has two non-hold buttons, so it's either skip or volume, not both
20:41:56LloreanJdGordon|: Okay, "easy to use without looking" then
20:42:00LloreanThe lights only help when you're looking.
20:42:19*gevaerts suspects that Llorean is right about this mr100 vs d2 usability
20:42:20AlexPgevaerts: But if the D2 got it, then why not others? And then you don't have that easy way out :)
20:42:42JdGordon|there is a thread already asking for this on the fuze
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20:43:24*gevaerts doesn't think that the "support issues" argument can be used as long as the "show files" option is on the quickscreen
20:43:51Lloreangevaerts: I've been advocating removing that option from the standard QS since before QS was customizable.
20:43:55kugelgevaerts: I find the support argument silly too
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20:44:05Tornegevaerts: aside from all the rest, i am totally with you on that one ;)
20:44:23kugelas well as the whole touchscreen usability for blind people thing
20:45:02Lloreankugel: So do you want to disable voice on the D2 to free up more RAM?
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20:45:17*JdGordon| would have no problem with that
20:45:18JdGordon|:D
20:46:00kugelLlorean: no, voice is useful for sighted people too
20:46:05LloreanI mean, why is the assumption "blind users probably won't buy it" the same as "we should make it impossible to use blind"?
20:46:15Lloreankugel: Using the player without looking at it is *also* useful for sighted people
20:46:56gevaertsAlexP: actually, I'm not at all against (optionally) switching to an entirely different button map using the hold switch...
20:47:01LloreanWhy is "able to be used blind" so bad that it needs removed?
20:47:11Bagderme neither
20:47:12*gevaerts now hides
20:47:14Lloreangevaerts: A static one, rather than a configurable one, or?
20:47:18gevaertsLlorean: static
20:47:40gevaertsalthough maybe configurable wouldn't be too horrible in this case
20:47:58LloreanIf it's only there when "hold enables custom keymap" is on, then configurable might not be too bad.
20:47:59AlexPgevaerts: I don't like it much, but I wouldn't throw my toys out of the pram
20:48:05LloreanSince turning off hold will always instantly restore the Rockbox keymaps
20:48:07Torneit's not just a different map, though, no?
20:48:17kugelI'm not entirely against it either, but we should go the same route on other players too if we accept it
20:48:21LloreanTorne: On the D2 it's a 100% remapping of all keys other than Hold, technically.
20:48:31Torneno, i mean it's more than just a different mapping
20:48:34gevaertskugel: of course. If we're talking about just one, I don't see much point
20:48:35Torneit would need to do the same actions regardless of screen to really work, no?
20:48:40Tornewhich isn't how the regular buttons work
20:48:48LloreanTorne: Some buttons work in all screens, others don't
20:48:52Lloreanor try to
20:49:48Torneis it currently possible to map a button to volume up, in a way that will work even if you're in a plugin or whatever?
20:49:53LloreanNot yet.
20:50:04LloreanEach plugin would need to explicitly keep those buttons as volume up
20:50:15Tornecuz *without* that it's far less useful, no?
20:50:23LloreanI mean, it's possible to create the illusion of such a mapping, and on some players I think we should (various Gigabeats for example)
20:50:27Tornekinda defeats the whole using it without looking thing if you have to know what context you are in
20:50:30kugelhey, it would allow me to get rid of the stupid volume in lists in favor of a quick page up/down on the clip <3
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20:51:17JdGordon|Torne: that probably will never happen
20:51:26JdGordon|that means those plugins would lose that button
20:51:41LloreanTorne: If it's going to be customizable, there should be an "all contexts" context that sets buttons to do something for everywhere in the core.
20:51:42bertrikI would like hold to stay mostly like it currently is, but won't mind an exception for some players where it's really troublesome
20:51:45gevaertsTorne: slightly hard to do in the current system where the plugins take over the GUI thread
20:51:47TorneJdGordon|: well, i was assuming you would only map the button like that in this mode with the hold switch on, i mean.
20:51:49LloreanTorne: But plugins probably should never be involved in this
20:51:52Tornegevaerts: indeed, that's what i assumed
20:51:59TorneJdGordon|: you wouldn't ever have that as the *normal* mapping.
20:52:10LloreanIf a user leaves a plugin running, turns on hold, and puts it in their pocket, it's their responsibility
20:52:58LloreanAlthough, alternately, the plugin could *be* the context. As long as it's running, it controls the keymaps, so it could be an explicit mode in that sense.
20:53:20JdGordon|plugins are (and always will be) a special beast and shouldnt be taken into account here
20:53:22gevaertsso we'd have a configurable keymap, that works (a) not in plugins, (b) only if people want it (option), and (c) is toggled by hold?
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20:53:32Lloreangevaerts: Basically, yes.
20:53:55gevaertsand (d) context issues to be discussed :)
20:54:05TorneLlorean: that's an interesting thought in its own right, actually..
20:54:05JdGordon|this is where loadable keymaps make sense...
20:54:14TorneLlorean: that could almost be a super-WPS plugin
20:54:32LloreanTorne: It's one I've had many times. Plugins as alternatives to the WPS allowing various alternate playback behaviours that don't need to be in the core, etc.
20:54:42JdGordon|you could easily implement a better WPS as a plugin now if you wanted
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20:54:58TorneJdGordon|: you'd probably want the facility to open it in the same contexts the WPS gets opened
20:55:02Tornebut that wouldn't be very big
20:55:08Tornesimilar to autorock?
20:55:19JdGordon|it could be done
20:55:24Torneanyway this may be diverting the topic somewhat
20:55:27LloreanYeah
20:55:36JdGordon|we need TSR plugins for that to work well though
20:55:46JdGordon|which is something else I've had working before :)
20:55:50TorneJdGordon|: dont' we have that already?
20:56:07*Torne forgets the details of how battery bench works, though
20:56:13JdGordon|sorry... re-entrant TSR
20:56:24TorneHm.
20:56:32Lloreangevaerts: We'd probably need a "keymap gallery" wiki page if we did that. I'm sure people would, at the very least, want to offer adapted keymaps for special purposes, and ones to duplicate the OF.
20:56:53JdGordon|batt bench is the only one which stays in the background.. but if you start it again it will kill the one runing, not rejoin it
20:57:24JdGordon|Llorean: thats a bad thing?
20:57:29Lloreangevaerts: And we'd have to decide what functions can be mapped to keys (for example, some functions like pitch are only available conditionally - to they get their own function name, or are they always conditionally mapped to whichever button got the function they're normally paired with)
20:57:44LloreanJdGordon|: It's not a bad thing. I'm just exploring what else needs discussed.
20:57:57WilliamCHow do you load Last.fm logs from Rockbox again?
20:58:14LloreanJdGordon|: Just because I'm marginally against the idea doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see it done well and thoroughly if it does happen.
20:58:17gevaertsLlorean: indeed. There's a lot to be decided...
20:58:53Lloreangevaerts: I think the "what can be mapped, and how" will be a pretty hard one. While static alternatives will be simpler, but (to me) somewhat more pointless.
20:59:13LloreanOnly a few specific players can benefit much from a static alternative.
20:59:30AlexPWilliamC: Use something like qtscrobbler
21:00
21:00:09WilliamCSomeone had an online utility.
21:00:26AlexPdunno, try the wiki or google
21:00:40kugelJdGordon|: it will not kill the one that runs
21:00:52WilliamChttp://scrob.paulstead.com/
21:00:55JdGordon|i thought it does?
21:00:55kugelit will show a warning that it's allready running (same if you enter other plugins)
21:01:07JdGordon|oh ok
21:01:29JdGordon|is it a batt bench warning? or the loader?
21:01:50gevaertsLlorean: I guess it's somewhat similar to the customisable quickscreen list, but there are of course some additional complications like things that you can or cannot map sensibly to a wheel
21:02:24WilliamCWhich mode should I boot into when I connect it into my laptop, default or Rockbox?
21:02:38AlexPWhat is it?
21:02:51bertrikWilliamC, depends on the target
21:02:52kugelJdGordon|: the former
21:03:04WilliamCbertrik, both work
21:03:25AlexPWilliamC: Yes, depending on the target and you haven't told us what you have
21:03:34TorneWilliamC: you just need to access the file, so any mode where usb works is fine
21:03:39WilliamCe200
21:03:41Tornethere's nothing special or magic about scrobbling
21:03:55Torneit just reads the file, and you delete the file when it's done
21:03:59JdGordon|at this point I want to butt in and say that completly customisable menus would be relativly simple to implement now, without these concerns...
21:04:00Tornerockbox doesn't know/care that you did so.
21:04:42JdGordon|i.e you could build the menu structre any way you wanted....
21:04:53JdGordon|the hardest part would be parsing the text file specifiing the layout
21:07:23 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:07:39kugelJdGordon|: beside the million other complications? :)
21:07:47JdGordon|name one?
21:07:52 Join dfkt_ [0] (i=dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt)
21:08:03JdGordon|every menu item already has a text label
21:08:08JdGordon|none need to be added
21:08:22JdGordon|if it is in the menu *anywhere* now it can be found so can be added
21:08:24kugelmake a patch
21:08:36JdGordon|its not worth the effort because it will be rejected
21:11:29 Quit n1s (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:11:34BBBradleyIs it possible to do a keypress from software, such as doing a Menu press on the Ipod from a function call to make it behave as if the key were actually pressed?
21:13:34*TheSeven wonders if he should have another shot a fixing the PCM properly
21:14:06bertrikTheSeven, what's the current plan?
21:14:40TheSeventhat's the problem, there is no real plan, i need to work out some hack
21:15:15TheSeveni can't reduce FIQ worst-case latency enough to get rid of the problems even with my pcmbuf hack
21:15:37LloreanBBBradley: To what end?
21:16:09bertrikI thought the options were basically: 1) copy data around to a continuous looping DMA buffer 2) rework the buffer handling so it better fits the samsung DMA 3) mess around to get FIQ faster than 1 sample, right?
21:16:32TheSeven3 proved impossible if you're boosting
21:17:10TheSevenand the other options currently won't work, as I didn't manage to do a wrapping DMA transfer yet
21:17:27TheSeventhat auto-reload bit seems to just be ignored
21:18:11bertrikTheSeven, oh I vaguely remember seeing the wrapping DMA work on the meizu m3, but I'm not entirely sure. Meizu M3 does _master_ IIS though
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21:18:45bertrikI wonder how the OF does it
21:18:51BBBradleyLlorean: well I have an issue with exiting a screen (I wrote), it does exit to the main menu but the wheel won't scroll until I push "Menu". It's acting like it is stuck.
21:19:41kugeldo other keys work?
21:19:49kugelI think that could be a known problem
21:19:51TheSevenbertrik: master/slave I2S shouldn't matter for that, as the DMA controller doesn't really know about it. But the Meizu does slave I2S, right? (the nano does master I2S)
21:20:07TheSeventhe OF seems to just not be boosting and thus achieve low-enough latencies
21:20:36TheSeven(at least in diagmode, I haven't disassembled that 6MB "osos" blob yet)
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21:21:06bertrikThe Meizu m3 pushes PCM data to the codec
21:21:34TheSevenah yes, it was the wmcodec's role that was different on the nano
21:21:42TheSevenso we're both doing the same on the I2S side
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21:22:05bertrikoh, good :)
21:22:27BBBradleyLlorean: It's exiting the wps using audio_stop()
21:23:06TheSevenbertrik: the only thing i can think of right now to get rid of the problems would be to align frequency changes on DMA transfer boundaries :-)
21:24:28bertrikok, maybe I don't understand the problem then, I thought the audio glitches were caused by lack of proper chaining (i.e. small gaps) in the DMA stream, not related to frequency changes
21:25:13 Quit dfkt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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21:25:47TheSeventhe root problem is that CPU clock changes involve that the CPU is running at 1.8MHz for several milliseconds, and if a DMA refresh is needed during this time, we can't meet it's latency requirements
21:25:51TheSeven(at least not with the current code)
21:26:48BBBradleyKugel: I can't scroll the wheel until I press menu after the exit... but I did not try pressing the other keys.
21:27:13TheSevenand even if we manage to re-setup the DMA from within 3 instructions within an FIQ that may already be too late at that freq
21:28:08bertrikTheSeven, I was hoping we could change the frequency instantaneously, e.g. by just changing/enabling/disabling a clock divider somewhere (at least keep the PLL running at a fixed frequency)
21:28:29TheSevenbertrik: if we do that, boosting won't lower the current much
21:28:29 Quit liar (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:28:42TheSevenseems like the PLL is one of the major current leaks
21:29:04bertrikthat's a real pity...
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21:29:59TheSevenI'll try it again though, it may be possible that the last time I was measured this was before i fixed another bug that resulted in additional current at low clock speeds
21:30:11TheSevenbtw, this CPU can be undervolted nicely
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21:31:07bertrikTheSeven, but keeping the PLL running and doing the (nearly) zero-wait CPU switch would solve the problem, right? In that case, I'd consider it a solution for now.
21:31:26TheSevenit's specified at 1.1-1.3V, apple drives it at 1.075V, I drive it at 1.000V (at full clock) and 0.900V (at 48MHz)
21:32:09TheSevenIt's still running fine at 0.8V, but the quartz osc starts drifting badly as soon as you go below 0.900V
21:32:17TheSevenbertrik: I'll have a shot at that right now
21:32:18bertrikI think you should keep some margin (for example use the apple setting) for now
21:32:37bertrikgood luck!
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21:33:43*shotofadds thinks the ML discussion has gone way off track. I'm talking about a single "enable track skipping on hold" setting (disabled by default to avoid any confusion), not "customizable keymaps", or visual imparied accessibility, or anything else.
21:34:14shotofaddsI wanted a simple answer as to _why_ this won't be considered, not just "I don't like it" or "support" without any actual justification
21:34:45 Quit dfkt_ (Nick collision from services.)
21:35:42gevaertsshotofadds: you may want to read some backlog here, starting maybe about an hour and a half ago
21:36:09shotofaddsI did, but it doesn't help
21:38:31JdGordon|it did go off topic... but customisable keymaps *is* the argument here... what you are talking about is a specific instance of this
21:39:07Lloreanshotofadds: Why not "enable volume change on hold" instead then?
21:39:12LloreanI've seen that requested on many more players.
21:39:42JdGordon|I actually like stripwax's idea for using hold to only disable the touchscreen or wheel
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21:39:55shotofaddsLlorean: because there is already a key combination to change volume. there isn't one to skip tracks.
21:40:08Lloreanshotofadds: There's a key combination to adjust volume while hold is on?
21:40:20shotofaddsno, that's not what I said
21:40:27LloreanIf I want to skip tracks blindly on a D2 while hold is off, I can do it.
21:40:34LloreanIf you *choose* to be in a mode where you can't, I don't see the prolbem.
21:40:38shotofaddsgood for you
21:40:54LloreanMy point is "why should your feature for use while hold is on be the most important one?"
21:41:10*gevaerts will send a proposal to the ML soon
21:41:15shotofaddsJdGordon|: yes it makes sense, but it still doesn't help skipping tracks "blind"
21:41:15LloreanYou want to add a feature, the job is to justify it.
21:41:40Lloreanshotofadds: Tracks can already be skipped blind. Please, don't pretend like that doesn't exist just because you refuse to use the existing method.
21:41:47LloreanThis is adding an alternative means to do something, not enabling it in the first place.
21:42:03gevaertsshotofadds: what I proposed should allow the skip-track-on-hold as a specific configuration
21:42:11shotofaddsI didn't pretend it doesn't exist, I just think the "grid" mode sucks and should die a horrible painful death
21:42:27Lloreanshotofadds: Yes. You can think that, but that doesn't make it a universal truth.
21:42:49LloreanYou have to accept that right now you're just saying "my method is a better way of doing something that can already be done"
21:42:53 Quit J-23 ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net")
21:42:54LloreanBut you haven't explained *why* your mode is better.
21:43:03shotofaddsjust because you are happy to do things one way, doesn't mean everyone should have to be happy with it
21:43:10LloreanMy mode can allow blind people to use the device, allow complex control while not looking at it even for sighted users, etc, etc.
21:43:12LloreanWhat does yours offer?
21:43:19shotofadds"my mode"???
21:43:26LloreanThe one I'm in favour of?
21:43:58 Quit xavieran (Remote closed the connection)
21:44:01LloreanInstead of just saying "This feature should be added because I like it" tell us what about your feature makes it significantly important or valuable.
21:44:13LloreanYou haven't really done that beyond saying "the OF does it, and people like it"
21:44:19shotofaddsLlorean: I already explained all this in my post to the ML and the relevant FS tasks. I'm not going to be a party to your petty arguments again
21:44:27shotofaddsfull stop
21:44:37Lloreanshotofadds: Good job. "it's petty because I don't agree with you."
21:44:48shotofaddsThat's basically what you're saying too.
21:44:50gevaertsLlorean: to be honest, no feature at all in rockbox has much more justification than "someone wanted it"
21:44:53LloreanI love the fact that the implication is that I can't have a reasoned discussion because you're unwilling to explain your point of view.
21:45:25Lloreanshotofadds: I didn't call your argument petty. I asked specific questions, and explained the advantages of my point of view. You instead say "I refuse to discuss this here, do it my way."
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21:45:28LloreanYet I'm petty.
21:45:52shotofaddsFFS, I've explained everything I need to. I'm outta here.
21:45:54Lloreangevaerts: Many features though exist because there was *no* way to do it before. "People want it and it can't be done" is different from "people want other ways to do it." We can't address all alternative control schemes.
21:45:55 Quit shotofadds ("Leaving")
21:45:58*domonoky thinks "a Dev want its" is a valid argument, its all done because devs want those features :-)
21:46:15Lloreandomonoky: To that way leads extreme, extreme bloat though.
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21:46:31LloreanI just wish he'd actually stop and explain it rather than saying "the current objections are meaningless, so we should do it"
21:47:01kugelthat extreme bloat hasn't happened in the past 8 years
21:47:07LloreanSaying "I've done so elsewhere, go read it" in no way addresses any new or different points brought up since those older posts.
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21:47:19Lloreankugel: Because the past 8 years have included people saying "wait, do we really need this" constantly
21:48:03TheSevenbertrik: still some clicking action, wondering where that's coming from
21:48:14TheSevenpcmbuf just being too slow at 48MHz?
21:48:27kugelwe will have people for that in the future. "a dev wants it" means not just liking the idea, but wanting it enough to overcome some objections
21:48:32LloreanJdGordon|: So an option for "Hold mode:" which says "Button, Wheel, Both" as options (or Button, Screen, Both)
21:48:34TheSevenyes
21:48:52Lloreankugel: But that's always been true. You'll see plenty of things have been committed over objections.
21:49:14kugelthat's exactly what I'm saying
21:49:19LloreanSo why say it, it's already true?
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21:50:22domonokydidnt we get to a more agree-able solution before ? (special keymaps for hold (as a option) )
21:50:42Lloreandomonoky: Yeah, but shotofadds said he already read everything we said in here, and still wants it his way.
21:50:49kugelIt's the reason why we don't have extreme bloat now, and it's the reason why we are unlikely have extreme bloat in the future
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21:50:57Lloreankugel: Yes.
21:51:01LloreanSo what's your point?
21:51:18TheSevenbertrik: keeping the PLL fast seems to be using far less current than I thought, but it's not solving the problem
21:51:23kugelYou were telling about extreme bloat
21:51:44 Quit Utchybann (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:51:45TheSeveni.e. I now have constant clicking action while unboosted, but the boosting/unboosting itself seems to be fine
21:51:52Lloreankugel: Yes, I said "if 'a dev wants it in' is the only reason necessary for something to go in, it will lead to extreme bloat"
21:52:14Lloreankugel: Nobody said "if a dev wants it, and is willing to override objections"
21:52:22LloreanYou've assumed that was what was meant, but it's not explicit in the original statement.
21:52:25kugeland I'm saying that didn't happen until now, and won't happen in the future
21:52:54LloreanOkay, there's a difference between "a dev wants it ends discussion" and "a dev wants it, but people still voice objections"
21:53:18LloreanIf we're still voicing objections, then saying "a dev wants it should be enough" is pointless, since you don't intend that statement to change the situation.
21:53:48 Part froggyman
21:53:50kugelthat's not my point, I'm just saying extreme bloat is very unlikely even if "a dev really wants it" keeps to be enough of a reason to add it
21:54:05Llorean"a dev really wants it" is adding a word to the statement
21:54:12*domonoky thinks that "a devs want it" is enough to justify a feature in general (if it isnt silly), but we still have to agree on the best way to get into rockbox so it doesnt interfere with other things.
21:54:20 Quit ender` (" It would seem that everything is easier on a mac after all - right down to the exploits.")
21:54:33kugeldomonoky: "if it isn't silly" −− that's what most objections are about
21:54:45kugeland it's very subjective too
21:54:53JdGordon|its entirely subjective
21:54:58Lloreandomonoky: What about if it's not silly, but if it's something some people feel is harmful, but others don't.
21:55:14Lloreandomonoky: Not that I'm saying this feature is harmful, but I think some people feel it is.
21:55:36*kugel doesn't think so
21:55:37LloreanOr at least, negative in some manner.
21:55:42domonokyLlorean: then it could be added with default off (if the harm isnt completly inerfering)
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21:55:50Lloreankugel: You're in favor of the feature, so obviously you don't think it's negative.
21:56:06 Quit Omlet05 (Client Quit)
21:56:08kugelI mean I don't think that some people think it's harmful
21:56:17Lloreandomonoky: What if the *addition* of it is harmful to things, rather than the feature itself. Such as creating new or differing user expectations from the project as a whole?
21:56:27kugeland I'm not in favor of it, I'm actually more against it
21:56:29*domonoky wonders what kugel uses to know what others think :-)
21:56:34LloreanRemember, adding a feature is also a communication of intent to the userbase. In this case, customizable keymaps.
21:56:49LloreanYou're allowing the "hold toggle" to suddenly become a customizable button with two modes
21:56:50 Quit TopyMobile ("Ex-Chat")
21:56:51kugeldomonoky: same stuff that Llorean takes ;)
21:57:11Lloreankugel: Other people have *said* they think it's a bad idea.
21:57:18LloreanSo what I "take" is their actual statements on the matter, in this case.
21:57:20kugelyou said "harmful"
21:57:25LloreanAnd then I corrected myself
21:57:31*domonoky think we dont have todo what the userbase wants. the get what we do.. and if its some feature only one target, so be it.. :-)
21:57:35LloreanOr are you going to hold me to a statement I *admitted* was wrong?
21:58:00JdGordon|can we track down who decided to make "fade on stop" and "repeat all" defaults and kill them?
21:58:09JdGordon|thats *really* what we are discussing here...
21:58:16domonokyif we as devs can agree on a solutions, we shouldnt care about what users might expect.
21:58:17LloreanJdGordon|: I thought we agreed at one point that fade on stop should be disabled these days.
21:58:18kugelrepeat all isn't default
21:58:25AlexPThe repeat all default is a bit odd
21:58:28rasherFade on stop is a bad default if you ask me
21:58:33TheSevenJdGordon|: "repeat all" is default?
21:58:35LloreanSee, we can agree sometimes.
21:58:40*Llorean didn't know "repeat all" was a default.
21:58:46JdGordon|one of the wierd playback mode is default
21:58:47AlexPIt was for a long time
21:58:49JdGordon|or usd to be
21:58:55AlexPIf it has changed, I didn't notice
21:59:06LloreanI don't really know most of the defaults any more.
21:59:13AlexPbut it definately is/was for a long time
21:59:14JdGordon|anyway... I have said that hold patch is a bad idea, but I dont care if it goes in if its disabled by default
21:59:23Lloreanmy first step with a new player is loading *my* default, but the fade on stop was _really_ annoying, whereas repeat all wouldn't bother me too much either way
22:00
22:00:05LloreanJdGordon|: That's more or less how I feel on the hold patch. I think it's negative, but it's not like I'd try to get it reverted. The problem is, stating objections and then asking "please explain your reasons" is seen as being "petty"
22:00:25kugelI think fade on pause is one of the few features that are on by default to show off
22:02:21kugelLlorean: can you show me where I said that I'm on favor of this hold thing?
22:02:22*TheSeven think it just fades too slow on pausing, else it would be nice
22:03:38JdGordon|so maybe we have a use for the RSB now.... can we try getting an agreement on the question "if a patch is controversial, but has no negative effects on users who disable it, its ok to commit"?
22:04:03AlexPJdGordon|: I think that's a bit broad
22:04:10JdGordon|pruposly
22:04:15JdGordon|purposly also
22:04:23AlexPOnce more for uck? :)
22:04:26AlexPdammit
22:04:27kugelLlorean: also, he's seeing your arguments as petty since you seem to ignore that he actually explains why he wants.
22:04:29AlexP*luck :)
22:05:04gevaertsJdGordon|: as a member of the RSB, I have to say that if this would indeed be discussed by the RSB, I'd refuse to have an opinion unless it was made less vague
22:05:39Lloreankugel: He hasn't explained why he wants it other than "the OF does it, users think it's good, and I like it"
22:05:53kugelThat's just not enough explaination for you
22:06:03gevaertsLlorean: those three reasons are the only ones ever used to implement mp3 support
22:06:03LloreanWell, he's saying the objections are minor.
22:06:04kugelthat's why you don't accept it
22:06:08LloreanBut the reasons for are pretty minor too, then.
22:06:25AlexPI think the last of the three is the only important one
22:06:28kugelbut rather than saying "You don't explain" you could also say "I don't agree with this arguments"
22:06:32 Quit tomers (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:07:00Lloreankugel: Well, he says things "When this has been brought up in IRC or on the tracker it's usually been instantly dismissed without any real reasoning other than "I don't like it". What I'd like to do is get some real discussion around the issue and come to a decision about whether we can accept this. "
22:07:02 Quit HBK- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:07:07kugelhe clearly expressed his desire and his reasons
22:07:07LloreanIf "I don't like it" isn't a real reason, "I like it" hardly is.
22:07:27LloreanReal discussion means explaining fully *why* you like it, what the specific advantages it offers are, what the use-cases are for it, etc.
22:07:31LloreanWhat problems does it solve?
22:07:55LloreanBlind use is a problem it solves, but why is it the best solution for this problem?
22:08:26LloreanDoes he clearly express a list of problems it solves? A list of uses cases for it? A list of advantages it has over the existing solution to this problem? If so, where may I read these?
22:09:16kugelit's not the first time you refuse to accept arguments to be valid reasons based on subjectives. Always asking for problems it solves is stupid IMO
22:09:38kugelthe world wouldn't move if we always needed problems before actually doing something
22:10:00Lloreankugel: Ah yes. "Wanting more reasons is stupid even if you don't think the current ones are enough."
22:10:52LloreanIf he sincerely wants discussion, he should be prepared for people to ask him to thoroughly justify his side.
22:10:57kugelyou didn't say that he wouldn't have enough reasons. You said he doesn't have reasons at all
22:11:02LloreanIf I ask what problems it solves, he can say "it doesn't solve any other problems"
22:11:08LloreanBut saying "you're petty for asking" isn't a reasonable discussion
22:11:15Lloreankugel: No, I said his reasons are minor.
22:11:30LloreanAnd you said I was stupid for asking for more reasons.
22:12:04kugelthat's not true
22:12:33gevaertsLlorean: why are your reasons to oppose this not minor?
22:12:44Lloreankugel: "Always asking for problems it solves is stupid IMO"
22:12:49Lloreangevaerts: I didn't say they weren't.
22:13:09kugelLlorean: that's not the same
22:13:11Lloreangevaerts: I've said *explicitly* I'm only minorly opposed to the feature.
22:13:23kugelasking for more reasons != asking for problems to solve
22:13:45Lloreankugel: Ah yes, my apologies. I should never offer suggestions for *types* of reasons I'd like to hear.
22:13:59LloreanClearly I can't help them bring up reasons that could prove me wrong.
22:14:03gevaertsLlorean: ok, so why is "I like it" a minor reason?
22:14:06LloreanI must instead sit and wait while they refuse to discuss it at all
22:14:14Lloreangevaerts: It's no more minor or major than "I don't like it"
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22:14:24Lloreangevaerts: But it was established in the initial post that "I don't like it" is minor.
22:14:57*gevaerts still wants to know why mp3 support ever went in
22:15:14kugelI guess someone liked it
22:15:44Lloreankugel: My point is that you don't ask for "more thorough discussion" and then call someone petty for asking you if you have any more reasons, and offering you types of reasons they'd be most interested in.
22:15:47kugeloh, and the hardware rockbox ran on does only mp3 (and uncompressed) :9
22:17:10*TheSeven is annoyed by the pcmbuf
22:17:10kugelLlorean: it appeared you wouldn't accapt any of his arguments, saying that he doesn't explain himself. That's why he finds further discussion with you petty
22:17:11Lloreangevaerts: I've offered my suggestions on your configurable keymap thing. I definitely thing B is the way to go over all.
22:17:26TheSevenis there anybody around who can roughly explain how this thing works?
22:17:47Lloreankugel: Then he should ask specific questions perhaps?
22:18:04Lloreankugel: Maybe "I feel I have explained myself. Could you be more specific about which areas I've confused you in?"
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22:24:35*gevaerts isn't entirely sure how to read JdGordon|'s mail
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22:24:49JdGordon|a is for apple... b is for bee :)
22:24:50gevaerts"in practice I dont think that would work". What is "that"?
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22:25:33JdGordon|I'll reply to the thread
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22:28:43JdGordon|umm...
22:28:58TheSeven"Reduce latency by only holding the currently playing chunk in PCM.c not the next one too " on http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/AudioAPIEnhancement is what's resulting in the current trouble...
22:29:09JdGordon|gevaerts: oh.. "that" being the ability to switch keymap/configs on the fly
22:29:19gevaertsah, ok
22:31:21*JdGordon| wonders how hard it would be to build a text->keymap file convertor
22:32:23kugelI think JdGordon|'s go too far
22:32:27kugel+suggestion
22:32:56JdGordon|I took it to the logical conclusion
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22:34:02JdGordon|I see little point in adding heaps of chooses, when the entire thing can be configurable for less work
22:34:50saratogapersonally I think touch screen targets should be held to a different standard regarding the hold button, simply because they're probably going to be more limited options otherwise
22:34:55LloreanIf the entire thing is configurable, you're still probably going to end up eventually writing a plugin to offer the heaps of choices.
22:35:54JdGordon|but you dont need the actual setting for each one... and you dont have 15 options for each one
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22:36:25JdGordon|you want playlist viewer on rec, I want id3 info, someone else wants pause.... the choices are endless so its arbitrary which ones make it in
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22:36:34JdGordon|or they all go in in such a way that anyone can choose
22:36:38LloreanJdGordon|: What I'm saying is that basically, your way the text comes first, then someone implements a UI for it. The other way, you implement the UI, and the text version is already there (as limited .cfg files)
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22:37:21saratogarockbox's control scheme is already ridiculously button centric, i always wondered if eventually touch targets should get a different list/menu system (perhaps using icons in a grid rather then in a list)
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22:38:13JdGordon|saratoga: you arnt the only one... :)
22:38:30JdGordon|Llorean: well yes, but your way is far more limited
22:38:49LloreanJdGordon|: Limited how?
22:38:53JdGordon|my way is more effort on the user, with less effect on users who dont use it
22:39:04LloreanEither way you're offering them a finite selection of options that can be configured by way of a text file, or by way of an in-Rockbox UI
22:39:16gevaertssaratoga: I was there when JdGordon| was going to start implementing icon mode!
22:39:30LloreanIn your way, you just offer them the text file without a UI first, and then maybe someone codes a UI plugin later, if we're lucky.
22:39:46saratogasome sort of icon mode would be nice because then we could fork off the touch gui stuff into its own system that doesn't impact the button based code
22:39:52JdGordon|If I'm understanding you right there would be an option like "rec in wps in alternate mode does:" with a bunch of options?
22:39:59JdGordon|gevaerts: hehe... shuuush
22:40:18saratogasince i agree that configuring buttons for non-touch players is likely to be a mess
22:40:20JdGordon|and that was only 2 months ago.... im still in the "soon" category
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22:41:03JdGordon|Llorean: my way is saying to the user "here is every button on the target, and every avilable action... map them however you want"
22:42:33LloreanJdGordon|: And every button combo the hardware allows. And long presses. And possibly "short + long" in the cases where we still allow it (or all cases?)
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22:43:01LloreanMy way would offer them that as well, though. My whole point is that they're both the same idea.
22:43:24JdGordon|yes... everything... it would be a loadable version of the keymap-<target>.c file
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22:43:49JdGordon|rbutil would put a nice frontend on it and it wouldnt even be that hard
22:43:50LloreanYes, I'm just saying that it's still a list of buttons and combos, each with a list of possible functions.
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22:50:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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23:00
23:00:30kugelhrm, I'm thinking how to do this "you may not draw into the default vp" in the sbs properly
23:01:30kugelI thought just returning an error if a drawing tag happens to be parsed while the curr_vp is hidden completely is enough
23:01:40JdGordon|?
23:02:02kugelbut if it's rather used as conditional to de/activate hidden viewports it should work
23:02:53kugelbtw, It's stilly that there's only a single way to return error for the parse_* functions, that's hardly telling the real problem
23:03:34JdGordon|yeah, we should have a bunch of erro codes for them
23:03:44JdGordon|or actually something like errorno
23:04:14kugelthere's an enum of various error codes, but it's not used for the parse_* function
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23:12:25JdGordon|kugel: any ideas for a nice clean way to temporarily disable the sbs? (i.e from the wps)... and do the %we/d tags still even make sense?
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23:31:12kugelJdGordon: we/wd should work
23:31:43kugelit's a statusbar for all other code
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23:32:49JdGordon|?
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23:47:30toffe82perhaps I already give the link , but an interesting tool to have information on the register of the arm without needing to look at the datasheet :http://www.armkits.com/Product/regeditor.asp
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23:56:09kugelJdGordon|: ?!
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