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#rockbox log for 2009-12-04

00:02:13 Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection)
00:09:34 Nick Ypsy is now known as YPSY (n=ypsy@geekpadawan.de)
00:10:58 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
00:12:42 Part froggyman
00:13:47CIA-6New commit by 03rmenes (r23838): Another round of plugin keymaps for the Philips GoGear SA9200. ...
00:15:25LambdaCalculus37Crap, I accidentally committed an unwanted change to utils/MTP/beastpatcher/Makefile
00:15:34LambdaCalculus37I need to revert to the previous SVN revision.
00:17:31amiconnUnhelpful: Full screen mono bitmap in iram. Everything else would be too complex imo
00:18:05amiconnJdGordon|: No testing from my side before late Sunday evening (CET)
00:20:28JdGordon|ok, ill test in the sim then... I really want this in before the weekend
00:21:20 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("Leaving")
00:23:25 Join liar [0] (n=liar@83.175.83.185)
00:27:58 Join captainkwel [0] (i=2669ecc2@gateway/web/freenode/x-huybfygmrkqfbqhj)
00:28:04amiconn:grmbl:
00:29:44 Quit hebz0rl ("Ex-Chat")
00:30:38 Join GeekShadow [0] (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow)
00:37:17 Quit tomers ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091109125225]")
00:37:25gevaertsrjg: http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20091203#22:19:03 would be a more stable link
00:39:07rjgthanks gevaerts, I'll edit it
00:39:30rjgleft it too long to edit it now
00:39:51rjgoh no
00:39:56rjgsession timed out that's all
00:40:52rjgsorted
00:44:17gevaertsrjg: I don't do advanced playlist manipulation often, but isn't what you want pretty similar to "Play Next" (http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-h100/rockbox-buildch4.html#x7-680004.4.3 )?
00:44:27 Quit captainkwel ("Page closed")
00:45:31stripwaxrjg - right, if you forget the fact that it's called a playlist, sounds like you want something like Play Next, Queue Next or Party Mode
00:47:15rjgyeah, simply to play that file next and just continue through the filesystem from that point on as would normally happen, just don't immediately do it, but wait till the song's finished
00:48:29gevaertsPlay Next seems to only queue the single file you selected, and not the rest of the directory. The waiting bit is the same as what you want I think
00:51:02JdGordon|play next queues the currently playing track and prepends it to a new playlist built using the selected file/folder as the list
00:51:33rjgyeah, actually, something really f*cked up just happened there - let me see if I can reproduce what just happened
00:52:15JdGordon|amiconn: that grumble was to me right? the people being annoyed by the current statusbar redraw issues far outnumber those that will be annoyed if charcell isnt working correclty
00:53:30rjgright, the play next, it played the file I'd selected then after that it skipped to the next directory entirely and continued from there
00:53:41rjgthen I did play next again and it completely ignored it
00:54:21 Quit soap ()
00:54:24gevaertsJdGordon|: feel free to shout if I missed some things, but weren't there some GUI issues that need the remaining sbs FS tasks to be fixed? Am I understanding your mail correctly as proposing to not have those in 3.5?
00:54:34*gevaerts probably misses something
00:54:48JdGordon|thats correct
00:55:19JdGordon|its either fix niggly issues with lots of bandaids, or fix them all with one big hammer
00:55:24rjgbut yeah, something which simply did the absolute exact same thing as just selecting a file in the file browser but only once whatever is playing has finished, is what I'm after
00:56:01kugelbranch already? didn't we used to have a freeze period before branching?
00:56:25 Join soap [50] (n=soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
00:56:57gevaertsrjg: well, if it's close to something that's already there, and you manage to describe it in terms of existing functionality, I think it increases your chances of getting it :)
00:57:13JdGordon|freezing before the branch doesnt make any more sense than branching instead of freezing
00:57:22gevaertssure it does
00:57:27JdGordon|especially when bugs arnt going to get fixed in either branch
00:57:28rjgwell, fingers crossed gevaerts :)
00:57:47rjgI would write a patch myself, but I'm no coder unfortunately
00:58:12*JdGordon| is trying to cause the least amount of pain to everyone
00:59:44gevaertsJdGordon|: the point of freezing is to allow fixing serious and/or obvious bugs without having to do the work twice. Branching first means that you will miss some merges, or that some bugs will be considered too minor to risk destabilising the release branch
01:00
01:00:02gevaertsThat means that branching without freezing causes *more* pain for everyone
01:00:45JdGordon|I disagree
01:00:50gevaertsI know
01:01:03gevaertsYou also think that testing is useless
01:01:21JdGordon|the first reason I agev was to give users time to test
01:01:26JdGordon|gave*
01:01:28stripwaxrjg - so I think you can just Play Next the directory, rather than the single file, by selecting the directory (rather than the single file). Does that do what you need?
01:01:30JdGordon|and no i dont
01:01:43gevaertsusers should start testing as soon as we freeze, not as soon as we branch
01:02:20JdGordon|ok, so lets just release today anyway seen as its entirely arbitrary
01:02:44*gevaerts seems to be unable to understand JdGordon| at all
01:03:07rjgstripwax: not really, because there's times I don't want to play the entire directory, just play from a file onwards just like playing a file in the file browser
01:03:12JdGordon|the freeze is pointless because bugs dont get fixed during it, it just annoys people who want to keep working
01:04:12JdGordon|the only reason to not branch early is to give me one MASSIVE inconvienice because I know this shouldnt go in before release
01:04:36gevaertsit's *not* pointless if people get a chance to point out bugs
01:04:46stripwaxrjg - hm. so you want to play the whole directory but starting at some file you select onwards (and set it so that it doesn't play it immediately, but starts playing that file when the current one finishes, and then the rest of the directory follows that) ? What happens if you want to play a new track before it's finished the directory (just throw away the rest of the directory and replace it with the new directory) ?
01:05:02gevaertsWhy is it that you seem to be opposed to *any* proposal that's meant to improve the quality of our releases?
01:05:11rjgyes stripwax, absolutely
01:05:42stripwaxrjg - mm, could you just insert the directory, and then delete the tracks from the playlist that you don't want to hear?
01:06:00rjgyes I could but that's a bit of a faff imo :)
01:06:04stripwaxheh
01:06:05JdGordon|gevaerts: you are obvisouly completly missing the point... I'm getting frustrated with the sbs stuff.. that means I either commit now and make the release WORSE, or sit on it for another month which I'm just not going to do
01:06:11rjgespecially if controlling the player one handed in a car
01:06:20JdGordon|releasing/branching now is a relativly stable point and has no down side?
01:06:25JdGordon|s/?/!
01:06:33rjgand actually that wouldn't help - as it would play from the start of the dir
01:06:39rjgand it might be track 3 I want to hear next
01:06:52 Join Hillshum [0] (n=hillshum@75-165-233-21.slkc.qwest.net)
01:06:54gevaertsJdGordon|: if you think that committing now makes the release worse, you shouldn't even be thinking about committing it, even if the release was three years away
01:06:58stripwaxrjg - right that's what I mean (insert the directory into the playlist but then delete track 1 and track 2 from the playliust)
01:07:00rjgand while listening to track 3 I might think "yeah I like track 4 too, I'll leave it playing"
01:07:24JdGordon|gevaerts: no, the atch makes things better... but it effects people
01:07:32HillshumJdGordon: That build you gave me works fine at first glance. Anything specific to check?
01:07:42rjgbut then go "enough of this, I want to play X album from track 6 now"
01:07:55gevaertsif it makes things better, how in hell can it make the release worse?
01:07:56stripwaxunderstood.
01:07:57JdGordon|Hillshum: thanks :) plugins being funny, screens beign funny... different themes not working
01:08:08HillshumOkay
01:08:36stripwaxrjg - possibly naive question but what would you want it to do when it gets to the end of that directory?
01:08:56JdGordon|gevaerts: it reworks a big part of the GUI... I'm happy with it but I obviously havnt tried every screen... it changes the inbuilt statusbar behaviour
01:09:35JdGordon|I'm completly OK with commiting it tonight, but then there is no guarentees that graphical glitches dont get worked out before xmas
01:09:49rjgstripwax: continue to the next directory :)
01:09:50*JdGordon| is looking out for the users here (for some retarted reason)
01:09:52gevaertsaren't there graphical glitches now?
01:09:56JdGordon|yes
01:10:46JdGordon|those hopefully will all be removed, but new ones might be added... I dont know because noone wants to help test
01:12:22stripwaxrjg - yeah, thought you'd say that :) basically i'm trying to think how to generalise that, it's as you say, exactly the same as just playing a track, except with the track change not happening immediately but happening after the current track has finished. Definitely cannot be done now, sounds like it wouldn't be too hard, and (yet another) playlist insert mode
01:12:45 Join GeekShado_ [0] (n=Antoine@APoitiers-552-1-27-18.w86-217.abo.wanadoo.fr)
01:12:55stripwaxWe really do need to find a way to rationalise all those Insert/Queue/After/Next/End/Shuffled items into something nicer (esp. given that there's combinations missing).
01:13:11stripwaxrjg - and I think I'd probably use your play mode too, if it were there :)
01:13:33gevaertsJdGordon|: If we manage to get better testing of RC builds, and we manage to get this testing started at freeze time, I think committing now is the best thing to do. If we don't manage to get testers (and we actually ask for it and provide some guidance...), I think we can honestly say that we did our best...
01:13:44rjgstripwax: that's good to hear :)
01:15:00stripwaxI think the setting would look similar to the existing "warn before erasing dynamic playlist" setting −− a new setting like "preseve currently playing track before erasing dynamic playlist"
01:15:40rjgyeah that could make sense
01:16:02gevaertsCommitting something knowing that it breaks things shouldn't be done, but committing something after doing reasonable testing, and then fixing issues as they appear, is perfectly reasonable I think. Today, we are *not* in a freeze, and "there will be a freeze soon, so let's be more careful" is silly, as that is what the freeze itself is supposed to be
01:16:19JdGordon|gevaerts: I'm not sure how that actually changes anything... I'm proposing take a known state and call it the RC, or keep going and maybe have a dodgey build in 3 weeks.. if then we decide its better quality use that instead
01:16:43JdGordon|breaking here isnt crahsing breaking...
01:16:50stripwaxRight now, when you just select a track, it (and the rest of its directory) gets put into a blank dynamic playlist. If that setting is true, the only difference is that the currently playing track gets bubbled to its own spot at the top of the playlist and the new tracks go after it. I might have a stab at doing that (doesn't sound too hard)
01:17:10stripwax^that setting^that imaginary new setting
01:17:16gevaerts"if then we decide its better quality use that instead"? You mean suddenly import big features from trunk?
01:17:59JdGordon|if its deemed better quality sure
01:18:04gevaertsIf we do RC builds, trunk will *not* be tested enough for that
01:18:14JdGordon|trunk isnt tested anyway
01:18:21JdGordon|releases are stupidly arbitrary
01:18:23 Quit efyx_ (Remote closed the connection)
01:18:30gevaertsand you *never* do that sort of thing if you want to have a chance of having a stable release
01:18:41*JdGordon| makes it clear, these patches dont break code.. they change user experience
01:19:18JdGordon|this is why I'm saying branch now.. its stable, and we can release them in 1 week or 4 weeks dependaing on how much testing it actually gets
01:19:43kugelJdGordon|: I thought your patch is good?
01:19:56JdGordon|patch is good
01:19:58kugelwhy do you think it makes the release worse? svn is rather broken
01:20:35rjgcool stripwax, that's great :) let me know how you get on with it
01:20:39gevaertsYou're basically saying that we should totally change the release schedule because it happens not to match your personal schedule, and to hell with all other considerations
01:21:01rjghalf the issue is explaining the function properly, which you have done I think
01:21:50stripwaxrjg - I'll add a patch sometime soon (look out for it on the patch tracker on rockbox.org)
01:21:53 Quit GeekShadow (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:22:34rjgcool stripwax, I'll need to get all the SDK stuff and attempt to get it working :)
01:22:36JdGordon|having a set release date was never a good idea for exactly this reason... having a rough date makes 1000x more sense... there is nothing saying that the build in X days will be more stable than todays.. EVER..
01:22:55JdGordon|the release is a build we think is good and stable
01:23:20JdGordon|knwoing that there is a good chance that some instability (whatever that means) is coming is a good excuse to release
01:23:43JdGordon|and if it ends up being better great.. and if it ends up begin dodgey then its good we released a bit eariler than expected
01:23:47HillshumAlso, the radio works on my clip for the logs
01:24:09gevaertsJdGordon|: the current code is *broken*
01:24:16*kugel also disagrees that freeze is useless
01:24:16JdGordon|indeed
01:24:46 Quit pamaury ("exit(*(int *)0 / 0);")
01:24:46kugelyou also didn't answer my question
01:24:52JdGordon|its not broken in a way that users care about (look at FS.. the bugs in that area havnt been jumping)
01:25:09gevaertsYou're saying that we should release broken code, because the fix might not work well. Why don't you just commit some random changes then? If you're lucky, you'll get lots of red, which clearly means that we should then release right away
01:25:25JdGordon|the current bugs arnt gonig to be fixed
01:25:31JdGordon|not by me anyway...
01:25:46JdGordon|not outside of the work I've done to remove the issues I mean
01:25:59gevaertswhat is that supposed to mean?
01:26:29JdGordon|this patch changes stuff in a way that removes those bugs
01:26:39JdGordon|CHANGES and breaks user expectations
01:26:58JdGordon|although not really because the change has had plenty of warning
01:27:20kugelhow does fs10824 change the user experience?
01:27:33JdGordon|you cant force the statusbar on
01:27:41JdGordon|fm/rec screens make this obvious
01:27:56kugelwhat about %we?
01:28:09rjgstripwax: updated the forum post with what you've said
01:28:09 Quit fyrestorm ("Ur skills' fireproof like a wooden panel -- U got feds talking leet on your IRC channel!")
01:28:11JdGordon|that enabled the theme
01:28:13JdGordon|not the inult bar
01:28:18stripwaxrjg cool
01:29:17*JdGordon| did bring up the qeustion of %we quite a while ago... it doesnt exactly make sense anymore
01:29:43gevaertsIf behaviour changes, you document that in the manual, and possibly in the release notes. If that were a reason to not commit before a release, it would also be a reason not to commit at all. Or is it that you think too many devs are opposed to your changes?
01:31:12kugelJdGordon|: for you...
01:31:21rjgwhile I'm in rockbox mode I might try to fix the DGT theme so that it doesn't go spaztastic on newer builds like it currently does
01:31:50JdGordon|kugel: ok, whats it supposed to do whent here is no such thing an an inbuilt bar anymore?
01:32:07JdGordon|gevaerts: its alot less headache for everyone if we release before this change
01:32:32gevaertsJdGordon|: OK, fine. Then this change goes in in two weeks
01:32:37JdGordon|I also think that certain areas arnt entirely ready yet, but cant be fixed in this patch
01:32:59JdGordon|why does the date matter?
01:33:11 Quit stripwax ("http://miranda-im.org")
01:33:16JdGordon|that really inconvieniences me and doesnt have any positive affect on anyone
01:33:40gevaertsSure, you don't see a positive effect, so it doesn't exist
01:33:44kugeldeactiving the sbs bar maybe?
01:34:12JdGordon|gevaerts: so list one then
01:34:32JdGordon|kugel: I'm not sure how that makes sense.. thats what %wd does
01:34:46kugelenable it, then
01:34:52JdGordon|its always enabled
01:35:08gevaertsJdGordon|: you're the one who wants to drop the freeze, so you should explain why. All you've said comes down to "But I want to commit this thing that shoudln't be in the release today!"
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01:35:31gevaertsAlmost everyone else thinks that the freeze is a good idea
01:35:38JdGordon|have a 3 week freeze/RC isnt dropping the freeze
01:36:09kugelright, that's one of your other changes
01:36:26gevaertsYou're proposing to branch today, and then go wild in trunk. How is that not dropping the freeze?
01:37:09*kugel thinks JdGordon| is pretty ignorant these days
01:37:11LloreanJdGordon|: Branching now *is* dropping the freeze
01:37:29LloreanBecause the current plan is to have a week where there's no branch, just freeze, then a week where there's a branch but work can resume on the main codebase.
01:37:57JdGordon|go back and look at the amount of commits during the freezes....
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01:38:28Lloreanlooking for what? That statement on its own doesn't tell what point you're trying to make, since it's obviously an opinion of some sort.
01:38:31LloreanWere there too many? Too few?
01:39:22JdGordon|ok so fuck it... I'll commit it because it improves code quality
01:39:40LloreanBecause you can't wait two weeks to do so?
01:40:35kugelit fixes bugs, I think
01:40:38JdGordon|because waiting 3 weeks is stupid because it will net exactly 0 more testers
01:40:57LloreanBut you already said you don't think it should go in the release.
01:41:08LloreanSo rather than inconvenience yourself you're saying "screw it, I'll inconvenience everyone"
01:41:49JdGordon|no... it fucking changes user expectations.. and releasing now has no NEGATIVE effect on ANYONE other than "oh no we released 3 weeks before we said we would"
01:42:20JdGordon|brnaching still lets people commit bug fixes if they want to
01:42:27gevaertsYou keep talking about changing user expectations. If that's a bad thing, why does the patch exist at all?
01:43:00LloreanJdGordon|: Releasing now has the negative effect of "everyone who planned some time to try to get things cleaned up or fixed for the release now can't do it"
01:43:01JdGordon|because 2 months ago I said "this is whats happening" and had no objections...
01:43:19LloreanYou're assuming people would never, EVER plan ahead and say "we've scheduled a freeze this week during which I can try to take a hard look at this problem"
01:43:44JdGordon|which you can do anyway if you were so inclined
01:43:59JdGordon|fix the bugs in the branch.. why is that a big deal?
01:44:16LloreanJdGordon|: Because people can magically change their schedules to fit your whims?
01:44:28LloreanMaybe people are busier this week?
01:44:50JdGordon|so they can do it next week.. or two weeks...
01:44:55LloreanYou said "releasing now"
01:44:56JdGordon|did you actually read the damn email?
01:45:01gevaertsJdGordon|: while in the meantime you've been diverging trunk and the release branch, so it gets a lot harder to move fixes between them?
01:45:03LloreanI'm responding to what you're saying *in here*
01:45:08LloreanBecause we're talking *in here*
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01:45:18LloreanI responded to your email in the email
01:45:30*gevaerts doesn't think it matters whether people have read the email, because the email doesn't make much sense anyway
01:45:45LloreanThe freeze should be a freeze, whereas the branch should be for an RC and should receive as few fixes as possible, which means there still needs to be a freeze period
01:45:56LloreanWhich means your commit is still delayed at least two weeks if the branch is going to stay short
01:46:00LloreanWhich solves nothing for you personally
01:46:19LloreanUnless you just make it a branch with no separate freeze, which is something that was argued for, and failed, back when we set up the freeze then branch.
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03:03:38JdGordonevilnick: you wanna find out if lambda is going to revery the accidental MAkefil commit?
03:04:00JdGordonprobably not a good idea to leave it in...
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03:06:46Unhelpfulamiconn: that would get ugly for the antialiased cases because of the larger size of stored pixels.
03:08:58Unhelpful9600B for the 4bpp whole-pixel AA fonts that the current patch uses, 15360B for subpixel (both on beast, although i believe there are a couple of 640x480 unsupported targets?)
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03:12:05Unhelpfuli'm also not sure transposing font glyph bitmaps is worthwhile, but something that might be would be storing groups of bytes in the buffer as host ints, so that we can load word-at-a-time
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03:35:33kkurbjunJdGordon: I have some time to do testing on your patch - which one was it
03:35:58kkurbjunI would like to see the fixups go in because as it stands the custom statusbar stuff is pretty broken
03:36:23kkurbjun(commenting about the mailing list)
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03:37:08kkurbjunand a release with the feature set as it currently is seems sloppy
03:39:24JdGordon10824
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03:39:51JdGordonI've got a bit more work on it to do still.. but its pretty much ready
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03:54:29CIA-6New commit by 03rmenes (r23839): Revert an accidental commit that I didn't want to go in.
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04:06:00kkurbjunJdGordon: I am not able to compile the patch..
04:07:29kkurbjuncan you upload a new version with current svn?
04:19:09JdGordonkkurbjun: yep, 1 min
04:20:32JdGordonshit.. I didnt accidently commit radio.c did I?
04:22:23JdGordondone
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04:25:48 Part froggyman
04:28:35kkurbjunjdgordon, I still cannot compile ro the mr500
04:28:55kkurbjunin screens.c I am getting some errors with the calibrate function
04:29:07kkurbjunerror: ‘VP_SB_HIDE_ALL’ undeclared (first use in this function)
04:30:40JdGordonnaughty lambda :/
04:31:58CIA-6New commit by 03jdgordon (r23840): 2 equal signs are better than waaa-huunn....
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04:35:24JdGordonkkurbjun: ok, fixed again
04:36:11Unhelpfulah, bugs bunny in drag, always comedy
04:39:20kkurbjunJdGordon: it's compiling now and the main firmware seems to be working so far, but it segfaults when I go into any plugins
04:39:38JdGordondid you do a full rebuild?
04:39:42kkurbjunto reproduce load the cleangreen theme in the sim and then go into a plugin
04:39:42JdGordonplugin.h changed
04:40:05kkurbjunI believe so, but I'll do a clean build and try again
04:40:27kkurbjunoh, png might have messed that up
04:40:31kkurbjunpong that is
04:40:41kkurbjunI didn't update after you fixed that failure
04:41:15kkurbjunoh cool
04:41:26kkurbjunthe plugin menus show the statusbar!
04:41:41JdGordonof course!
04:41:42kkurbjunit's a little messed up, but I like that it is showing it all integrated
04:42:00JdGordonmessed up how?
04:42:06kkurbjunon the mr500 I am getting alot of black boxes when I go into blackjack for example
04:42:11JdGordonah yes
04:42:16kkurbjunI think it might try to disable the backdrop..
04:42:29JdGordonone thing at a time.. its beter than svn at least
04:42:46kkurbjunyeah, exiting is clean
04:43:14CIA-6New commit by 03mc2739 (r23841): fix red - add missing #elif
04:43:25kkurbjunI really like that it tries to maintain the statusbar though
04:43:55JdGordonI'm thinking about linking the backdrop with the sbs and ui viewport also
04:44:09JdGordonnot sure if that will cause more problems though
04:47:28kkurbjunJdGordon: I tested all of the demo's they work as well as quite a few games - boomshine segfaults though
04:48:01kkurbjunwhich backdrop would you link with the sbs?
04:48:13JdGordonthe main one
04:48:47kkurbjunthat could cause problems in the wps if the custom statusbar is enabled, and a different backdrop is used I would guess
04:49:31JdGordonwps would force change the backdrop so that shouldnt cause problems
04:49:54kkurbjunoh yeah
04:50:41kkurbjunI think it's more than a problem just with the ui viewport and the sbs viewports - if I go into a plugin and then enter the game and go back to the menu I get artifacts of the game screen
04:51:13JdGordonleaving the menu should cause the game to redraw
04:51:36JdGordonI'm going to do some cleverness when going from fullscreen to theme, not the other way around though
04:51:46kkurbjunthe game redraws, but the menu doesn't redraw witht eh backdrop, I still see the game in the background in the menus
04:51:54kkurbjunor portions of the game
04:52:23JdGordonah yeah, I misunderstood
04:52:29JdGordonhow do you get boomshine to segfault?
04:53:36kkurbjunI had the cleangreen theme loaded on the mr500S with music playing
04:53:46kkurbjunand then I entered the plugin
04:53:57kkurbjunoh weird, it didn't crash this time
04:54:11JdGordonget it crashing in gdb and let me know where it breaks :)
04:54:14kkurbjunI went through all of the demo's and then entered it
04:54:15JdGordonI gotta run... back in an hour
04:54:20kkurbjunk
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04:55:12kkurbjunoh weird, I get a floating point exception when going into dice...
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04:55:26kkurbjunthat appears to be consistent
04:56:09kkurbjuninvadrox consistently segfaults too
04:56:50*Unhelpful wonders how you got an FPE at all...
04:57:01kkurbjun:), yeah, I was wondering that too
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05:01:52kkurbjunmetronome also segfaults when I exit
05:06:34kkurbjunJdGordon: I found an area in the main build that causes glitches - if I disable the custom statusbar and then go back into the setting and enable it it takes a menu transition before the ui-viewport takes effect and it causes a glitch in the background showing a portion of the old menu where the menu used to be
05:06:58kkurbjunthat appears to persist till I transition to the now playing
05:07:01kkurbjunscreen
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05:14:20kkurbjunJdGordon: I was mistaken about the boomshine segfault - I was loading something else on my end that was similarly named
05:15:43kkurbjunand I think the dice error is caused by the remote :)
05:16:25kkurbjunit's crashing on a check for the number of dice to show and I would guess the remote screen ends up with a 0 in the denominator of a division
05:16:59kkurbjunyeah, that's what it looks like, I'll take a look at that since it's a plugin specific problem
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05:22:04kkurbjunhmm, actually, that calculation should work sort of - it is calling display->getstringsize, and on the remote in this case it is set to the ui font, so that should return a height/width of 8
05:23:49kkurbjunit looks like it is returning the value based on the main screen ui viewport font rather than the remote font setting
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05:36:09JdGordonkkurbjun: ok ta
05:38:54JdGordonI dont tihnk the plugin api got bumped in the diff which could be causing you pain :)
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05:40:43kkurbjunJdGordon: yeah, I forgot about invadrox, I have that disabled currently on my system
05:40:48kkurbjunfrom building that is
05:41:02kkurbjunso I'm running whatever it used to be
05:42:08MuffinsI tried to format my Sansa c240 with the built in format tool, and now the rockbox bootloader is saying "no partition found", is there anyway to fix this? I just got this mp3 player today :(
05:42:19kkurbjunI'm guessing that the ui viewport somehow gets changed in dice which causes the segfault on the remote..
05:42:57kkurbjunif the viewport setting persisted it wouldn't crash, but it must be getting reset, in either case it needs a check to prevent a div by 0
05:43:17JdGordonok
05:43:25kkurbjunI am adding that now
05:43:32JdGordonI need to do real work now unfortunatly :( bbl
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05:45:24CIA-6New commit by 03kkurbjun (r23842): Dice: Prevent a divide by 0
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07:19:47Unhelpfulamiconn: actually, that math is all wrong. the needed buffer for full-size 4bpp font data would be 38400B. worse for subpixel AA with 6bpp, 61400B. even 9600B for mono sounds a bit costly, but the buffer could be sized for mono, and then only the AA font code would use partial buffering.
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07:50:43bnijk_everybody in ipodlinux is gone
07:50:52bnijk_can you tell me how to get this bootloader on
07:50:56bnijk_without ipodpatcher
07:51:31Lloreanbnijk_: Just because the right place to ask your question is empty doesn't mean you should come here with it.
07:51:36LloreanThis is for questions and discussion about Rockbox.
07:51:58bnijk_ok well
07:52:01bnijk_my ipod's partition table is borked
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07:52:04bnijk_should i use rockbox
07:52:09bnijk_is it better anyway
07:52:38pixelmabesides, most people around here wouldn't know the answer anyways (I for myself don't even have an Ipod)
07:52:45Llorean"better" is pretty subjective. It's got a substantial feature set covered in the documentation, and is generally considered superior for audio playback functionality.
07:53:22bnijk_that'll do it then
07:53:39*bnijk_ tupac rockbox-utility
07:56:17bnijk_holy cow
07:56:20bnijk_text to speech?
07:56:46LloreanNo.
07:56:50LloreanPre-recorded voice clips.
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08:00
08:02:33bnijk_is there a program that will just format my ipod
08:03:30bnijk_it's giving me a real headache
08:04:11LloreanAnything that can format partitions can format the data area just fine.
08:04:28 Quit JdGordon| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
08:04:46bnijk_how does it need to be formatted
08:06:08LloreanFAT32, most things will have sane defaults.
08:08:13evilnickbnijk_: Why not format it using itunes?
08:08:29evilnickThen at least you're starting from a known good state
08:09:23bnijk_i already finished
08:09:38bnijk_now i'm installing
08:10:14bnijk_man
08:10:16bnijk_this thing rules
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08:12:16bnijk_it's giving me a harddrive problem though
08:12:19bnijk_i think...
08:19:31bnijk_i'm installing quicktime through wine
08:21:02Lloreanbnijk_: We don't need to know about unrelated stuff. Please keep your comments here to questions or related information.
08:22:22bnijk_it's not unrelated
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08:23:26LloreanNeither Rockbox nor its tools requires quicktime.
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08:33:53amiconnJdGordon: Yes, the grumble was related to the statusbar changes. Not becaue of charcell though, but because you seem to be pushing a change with known bugs
08:34:12amiconn(recording screen, early usb, charging screen etc)
08:34:31JdGordonrecording screen doesnt have bugs
08:34:44JdGordonneither do the other two
08:37:35amiconnThe fs task says so...
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08:38:19bnijk_ok
08:38:23bnijk_now i'm having serious problems
08:38:34bnijk_i did the install like ten times, and i'm still getting the folder with the exclamation point
08:39:08bnijk_i just did sudo ./ipodpatcher -ab loader.bin
08:39:15bnijk_and it still doesn't work
08:39:25bnijk_i suspect this:
08:39:26bnijk_[INFO] Part Start Sector End Sector Size (MB) Type
08:39:26bnijk_[INFO] 0 32 10239 5.0 Empty (0x00)
08:39:26DBUGEnqueued KICK bnijk_
08:39:26bnijk_[INFO] 1 10240 39061503 19068.0 W95 FAT32 (0x0b)
08:39:28bnijk_is a problem
08:39:59Lloreanbnijk_: If you're installing Rockbox you don't need any parameters for ipodpatcher
08:40:33bnijk_i just did that
08:40:34bnijk_too
08:40:38bnijk_no good
08:40:48bnijk_it says "bootloader installed successfully"
08:40:58LloreanYou need a working iPod first
08:41:08LloreanGet it restored, then do it the way you're supposed to do it for Rockbox.
08:41:13LloreanWe can't really help you if you're trying other random things too.
08:41:21bnijk_what do you mean "restored"
08:41:33LloreanWorking in the original firmware.
08:41:43bnijk_well before i started, it was doing that
08:41:51Lloreanyes, but you've clearly done several things
08:41:54LloreanSome of which must've been wrong.
08:42:00bnijk_that seems to be true as well
08:42:05bnijk_the question is really "what goes in that empty space"
08:42:11LloreanIt's just marked as "empty"
08:42:12LloreanThat's normal
08:42:22LloreanA type "empty" doesn't mean there's nothing there.
08:42:22bnijk_so then what exactly would the problem be
08:42:32bnijk_without using itunes
08:42:33LloreanI don't know, because I don't know everything you've done.
08:42:33bnijk_how do i fix this
08:42:45LloreanYou need to restore it. Find the Manual Restore page in the Rockbox wiki and follow the instructions there.
08:42:51bnijk_i've done that
08:42:58bnijk_http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodManualRestore
08:43:03LloreanIn the last several seconds you did it?
08:43:10bnijk_immediately before doing the install
08:43:19LloreanExcept you clearly did something other than the normal Rockbox install
08:43:25LloreanSince the command you gave up there isn't our command
08:43:26bnijk_before that the drive was wiped
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08:44:08gibbon_hiho and good morning
08:44:38LloreanWhat you need to do is
08:44:38Llorean1) Get the Apple firmware booting following the instructions on the manual restore page.
08:44:38Llorean2) Follow the instructions for installing Rockbox exactly as in the manual. Do not try to install some other bootloader.
08:44:38DBUGEnqueued KICK Llorean
08:44:38Llorean3) After doing these if you have problems explain exactly what you did immediately before you got unexpected results. Do not try other things as soon as *anything* turns up different than it should be.
08:45:08LloreanRight now we've got an unknown number of other steps in there where you've tried commands such as the one you pasted, and this isn't the place for asking for help with other install processes.
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08:49:43bnijk_ok
08:49:50bnijk_i did all the manual restore steps
08:49:56bnijk_i mounted the vfat partition to /f
08:50:06bnijk_gave /f to rbutilqt as the mount point
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08:50:15bnijk_did "complete installation"
08:50:20bnijk_did "install bootloader," to be double safe
08:50:31bnijk_and it still gives me a folder with an exclamation point above it
08:50:50LloreanWas the original firmware working after the manual restore?
08:50:58bnijk_no
08:51:08LloreanAnd what was step 1) I gave you?
08:51:20bnijk_fine
08:51:55bnijk_is this Firmware-2.2.3
08:51:57bnijk_from the manual restore page
08:52:34bnijk_i have a 40mb boot partition, too
08:52:40LloreanI don't know. Do you have a 3rd generation Grayscale iPod?
08:52:44bnijk_yes
08:52:51LloreanThen that might be a suitable one.
08:52:56bnijk_so i do
08:53:15bnijk_./ipodpatcher...
08:54:43JdGordondoes clear_display() not actually clear it if you dont do an update()?
08:54:57JdGordonclear the framebuffer anyway.. so the next update will be correct?
08:55:06CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 5 minutes and 12 seconds at the last flood
08:55:06*JdGordon thinks he should goto bed instead of fiddle with this
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09:00
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09:07:20bnijk_it's still not even close
09:08:33Lloreanbnijk_: Copy down exactly what you did to a site like pastebin.ca including the output from each of them, maybe I can spot where you misunderstood a step
09:10:31bnijk_can you just tell me how to format it
09:10:32bnijk_from scratch
09:10:39bnijk_so it can handle rockbox
09:10:42LloreanThe instructions are on the restore page.
09:10:52bnijk_the manual restore page
09:10:53LloreanOr the linked FAT32 conversion page if you're using Linux
09:11:26LloreanYes.
09:11:54bnijk_i have linux
09:11:57bnijk_isn't that what the manual restore page is for
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09:12:32LloreanSorry got it backward, the Restore page is Linux yes.
09:12:36Lloreanthe Conversion page is for OSX
09:12:40LloreanThey're very similar.
09:12:47LloreanBut the Restore page includes a full format.
09:13:38LloreanIt restore page rebuilds everything necessary for the original firmware and Rockbox to work on your iPod. Which is why I've told you to do it several times, and asked for what output you got to be pasted to a site like pastebin.ca
09:13:54LloreanSince the only way I can help you is if I figure out what part of that is messing up.
09:16:18bnijk_$ cat ipodRestore.sh
09:16:18bnijk_#!/bin/bash
09:16:18bnijk_dd if=/comp/ipodlinux/mbr/kernel/mbr-3g-20gb.bin of=/dev/sdi
09:16:18bnijk_hdparm -z /dev/sdi
09:16:18bnijk_dd if=Firmware-2.2.3 of=/dev/sdi1
09:16:20bnijk_mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/sdi2
09:16:42LloreanOkay
09:16:53LloreanI said paste it to a site like pastebin.ca
09:17:05bnijk_we're the only people in here Llorean ...
09:17:09LloreanYes, and the logs
09:17:14LloreanWhich do not need to be filled up with long pastes.
09:17:18LloreanOr even medium pastes.
09:17:26bnijk_doesn't that just make them more comprehensive
09:17:53Lloreanno, it makes them more annoying for people reading them for actual development discussion.
09:18:07LloreanThe channel has posted guidelines (as you can see in the topic)
09:18:18bnijk_oh, well
09:18:20bnijk_if there are guidelines
09:19:47bnijk_so i have fully completed
09:19:49bnijk_the manual restore
09:20:23LloreanAnd does the original firmware work?
09:20:36bnijk_i installed Firmware-2.2.3
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09:22:10bnijk_this is not the apple firmware
09:22:12bnijk_as far as i know
09:22:17bnijk_i don't have that
09:22:48LloreanThe firmware files linked from the manual restore page are the original firmware.
09:23:03bnijk_yes
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09:23:13bnijk_from iPod_2.2.3.ipsw
09:23:23LloreanSo if you installed Firmware-2.2.3 and it works, you have the original firmware.
09:23:28LloreanIf it doesn't work, the answer to my question was a simple "no"
09:23:34bnijk_what do you mean "works"
09:23:36bnijk_ does it boot?
09:23:43LloreanYes.
09:23:48LloreanCan you boot your player and use it?
09:23:50bnijk_no
09:23:53bnijk_dude
09:23:57bnijk_the vfat partition ahs been wiped
09:24:07bnijk_unless the whole ipod OS is on the firmware ( i don't know if it is)
09:24:10LloreanNo part of the apple firmware exists on the data partition.
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09:24:24LloreanThe whole iPod OS goes in that "blank" partition, which is what that Firmware-2.2.3 file is.
09:24:30bnijk_fine
09:24:33bnijk_then no, it won't boot
09:24:47bnijk_it gives me a folder with an exclamation point
09:24:47LloreanAlright, delete *all* files associated with this. Start over from scratch
09:24:51LloreanThat means redownloading everything
09:25:09LloreanInstall it. Copy the output of every step you do to a pastebin. *include* steps such as extracting the .ipsw
09:25:14LloreanMake sure to get the output of everything
09:26:13LloreanI can't help you until I can see which step went wrong, and that means I need much more comprehensive information than you've been giving me because every step of the way you've decided to filter what I've asked for through your decision of what your limited understanding of the situation thinks I need. I know I'm sounding rude now, but I've been trying to help you for nearly an hour now and we're still at square 1 and I've already asked you for s
09:28:01bnijk_http://www.hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=13584#a13584
09:28:29LloreanOkay, you didn't follow my instructions exactly
09:28:32LloreanI'm done.
09:28:41bnijk_so what didn't i do
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09:29:14Llorean"Copy the output of every step you do to a pastebin. *include* steps such as extracting the .ipsw"
09:29:47bnijk_[root@buffalo ipodlinux]# unzip *.ipsw
09:29:47bnijk_Archive: iPod_2.2.3.ipsw
09:29:47bnijk_replace Firmware-2.2.3? [y]es, [n]o, [A]ll, [N]one, [r]ename: y inflating: Firmware-2.2.3
09:29:50bnijk_replace manifest.plist? [y]es, [n]o, [A]ll, [N]one, [r]ename: y inflating: manifest.plist
09:29:53bnijk_[root@buffalo ipodlinux]#
09:29:59LloreanAgain, DO NOT PASTE TO THE CHANNEL
09:30:37bnijk_it's 3:30 buddy
09:30:44bnijk_in the morning
09:30:47bnijk_you don't see me shouting
09:30:57LloreanIf you're too tired to remember simple things like that, please come back when you've had some rest.
09:31:09bnijk_i remember it
09:31:17bnijk_the issue is that i don't care at all
09:31:18Lloreanme, I'm getting frustrated because I seem to have to give you instructions 2+ times before you remember it.
09:31:38Mode"#rockbox +o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
09:31:58bnijk_and now you pull out the +o
09:32:02LloreanYes.
09:32:07bnijk_Yes.
09:32:14bnijk_so you're in like
09:32:15bnijk_support?
09:32:18LloreanI tried asking you politely. now I'm going to be clear.
09:32:18Unhelpfulbnijk_: are you shocked? you've made it clear you don't care about channel guidelines.
09:32:24bnijk_this is how you help people?
09:32:28LloreanThis channel has guidelines. You've asked for help. You're now being an ass about it.
09:32:36bnijk_you're the one threatening to ban me
09:32:39Bagderwe are not support people
09:32:42bnijk_i'm not being an ass
09:32:50LloreanDid I say I was going to ban you?
09:33:02bnijk_you sure implied it
09:33:07LloreanI put on the +o now to show that I'm not just some random person spouting things, but someone in a position to know that these rules really are intended to be followed.
09:33:09Unhelpfulnot being an ass? <bnijk_> the issue is that i don't care at all
09:33:21bnijk_how is that being an ass?
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09:33:29bnijk_i don't respect your rules because *this is how your rules are applied*
09:33:35LloreanI won't imply that I'm going to ban you. I will state something such as "if you do that again, you will be banned."
09:33:42bnijk_i don't respect them because they *make the discussion more difficult*
09:34:02Lloreanbnijk_: What makes discussion more difficult is idiots who can't follow directions, and refuse to give the information they're asked for because they think they know better.
09:34:16bnijk_i gave you the information
09:34:20bnijk_i sent you the paste of everything i did
09:34:23bnijk_and gave the rest of you the information
09:34:27bnijk_which was 7 lines of information
09:34:28bnijk_when you complained
09:34:30Bagderbnijk_: somehow I think you've blown your chances now
09:34:43Galoisyou're being a little selfish here. Pastes may make your discussion easier but they screw things up for everyone else searching through the logs afterward.
09:34:45Lloreanbnijk_: First, you didn't give the information on first request for either of those sets of info.
09:35:00LloreanSecond, you chose to disregard simple channel guidelines for your own laziness.
09:35:04bnijk_because i thought my problem was simple
09:35:14bnijk_and didn't need this whole thing
09:35:18LloreanExactly. Idiots who decide they know better than the people they're asking for help
09:35:32bnijk_well if rockbox could install on any reasonable filesystem
09:35:37LloreanI explicitly told you I wanted the whole thing but you, who can't solve the problem himself apparently know enough about it to know that I'm clueless and don't really need what I asked for.
09:35:37bnijk_we wouldn't be having this problem
09:35:45LloreanRockbox can install on any working FAT32 iPod
09:35:51LloreanYou get yours working, you can install it.
09:35:55Unhelpfulthis is not a rockbox issue, you need a working ipod :P
09:36:04bnijk_that's still such a joke
09:36:17Mode"#rockbox -o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
09:36:19Bagderbnijk_: we're all just jokers here, now get out of here
09:36:22bnijk_you can't write your own OS, without having to bootstrap it from another OS
09:36:24bnijk_on the same machine?
09:36:29Bagderbye bye
09:36:43bnijk_i'm still trying to get it installed
09:36:48Bagderno you don't
09:36:49bnijk_because as stupid as it is
09:36:54Bagderyou're trying to upset us
09:36:55bnijk_it's not as stupid as apple's software
09:36:57Lloreanbnijk_: yes, well you're not going to get any more support here. Feel free to try elsewhere.
09:36:59Bagderand it doesn't work
09:37:09bnijk_you don't know what my intentions are
09:37:13bnijk_my intentions are to install rockbox
09:37:14Bagderyes I do
09:37:19bnijk_and then this asshole comes out with a @
09:37:24bnijk_like he's going to ban me
09:37:25BagderI've followed your chat the entire time
09:37:27bnijk_how am i supposed to react?
09:37:32Bagderyou are a lost cause
09:37:39bnijk_you're all lost causes
09:37:43Bagderyes
09:37:44bnijk_look at how you treat people
09:37:44Bagderbye bye
09:38:02bnijk_you'll have to ban me before i leave
09:38:02Bagdersorry, but you are not people
09:38:21bnijk_i'm not a person huh
09:38:26Lloreannot people
09:38:28LloreanYou're a person.
09:38:34bnijk_yes
09:38:36bnijk_people is the plural
09:38:38LloreanGenerally *people* as a group consider our project to have a pretty solid support base.
09:38:44Bagderbnijk_: then why don't you try to listen to advice and help and be friendly?
09:38:47LloreanYour feedback is welcome though
09:38:47bnijk_i'm sure others in similar situations would have similar reactions
09:38:50Bagderwhy are you trying to insult us?
09:39:04bnijk_you call this a solid support base?
09:39:12Bagderno
09:39:20Lloreanbnijk_: I spent an hour trying to help you despite your best attempts to avoid directly answering my questions
09:39:22Bagderwe call this an IRC channel
09:39:34bnijk_yeah Llorean you caught me
09:39:37bnijk_my secret motive the whole time
09:39:46bnijk_was to hinder you while you tried to help me to do something i wanted to do
09:39:50Lloreanbnijk_: The only "problem" here is that you decided a channel having enforced guidelines is 'bad support'
09:39:59bnijk_i do think that
09:40:06bnijk_the problem isn't that i realize it
09:40:09bnijk_the problem is that you don't
09:40:13LloreanInstead of dropping the issue and simply following them, getting back to the support because you "want to" install Rockbox, you persist in making a scene of yourself.
09:40:30GaloisThere's nothing secret about it. You admit that you know about the channel guidelines and don't care. Therefore we admit that we know you want help and don't care.
09:40:30bnijk_"and simply following them"
09:40:33bnijk_you just have to keep doing it
09:40:40bnijk_you can't act like we're equals
09:40:47GaloisThe majority of participants here respect the channel guidelines. In fact, everyone except you.
09:40:55LloreanHaving insulted the project's wishes, you now somehow expect members of the project to provide you with support anyway.
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09:41:01bnijk_oh, well, if a majority of people do it
09:41:05bnijk_it has to be right
09:41:17bnijk_"insulting the project's wishes"
09:41:24Bagderbnijk_: no, we've all been wrong for all these years until YOU came here and showed us the light
09:41:27Bagderfinally!
09:41:37Bagderthanks
09:41:51bnijk_good, now make it sincere and i'll listen
09:42:06Bagderwhy?
09:42:15BagderI'm aa stupid loser
09:42:21*Unhelpful wonders how you expect Bagder to say something ridiculous and untrue sincerely
09:42:34Lloreanbnijk_: Seriously, the wishes of dozens of developers isn't going to change just to meet your needs. The rule stands, if you want to insult it you're welcome to your opinion, but don't expect people to say "thanks" and still help you.
09:42:52Mode"#rockbox +o Unhelpful " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
09:43:00bnijk_maybe it won't
09:43:05bnijk_but the point of software is to get better, isn't it
09:43:14Bagderyes, usually
09:43:14LloreanAnd it doesn't need you to do that, apparently
09:43:29bnijk_apparent to you maybe
09:43:31LloreanSince you can't even manage to install it, something tens of thousands have done just fine.
09:43:38Bagderbnijk_: and the purpose of rules is that we've figured out a way that works (better) for us
09:43:41bnijk_i'm starting
09:43:45bnijk_with a _blank harddrive_
09:43:51bnijk_i was using it
09:43:53bnijk__for storage_
09:43:56LloreanAnd the Format page is designed explicitly for that state.
09:43:57Bagderoh we're starting over now?
09:44:00LloreanAnd it works for everyone who does it right.
09:44:24bnijk_what
09:44:25bnijk_http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodManualRestore#How_to_restore_an_iPod
09:44:27bnijk_that page?
09:44:36LloreanYes.
09:44:44bnijk_well i followed all of those instructions
09:44:49LloreanAnd you did something wrong.
09:44:51LloreanI don't know what.
09:44:57LloreanUnfortunately I'm not at your computer so I can't figure it out.
09:45:02bnijk_well i showed you the pastes
09:45:03LloreanEither that or something is different about your ipod
09:45:13n1sbnijk_: we chose our method of installation, it works well and , if you want to install in another fashion, get ready to do some hacking on the install tools and bootloader
09:45:21LloreanMaybe the in-flash bootloader is different, maybe it has physical damage since you mentioned having other problems with it before.
09:45:56bnijk_that's possible
09:46:01bnijk_should i switch it with another
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09:46:41Unhelpfulswictch what with another?
09:46:48bnijk_the flash
09:47:01LloreanDo you have a way to remove the flash chip and put a new one in?
09:47:05bnijk_it's about the size of a really flat razor, right?
09:47:20LloreanIt's probably the disk that's bad though
09:47:38bnijk_considering it was working 5 hours ago
09:47:40bnijk_i doubt it
09:48:20bnijk_well forget it, i have to sleep
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10:56:44gibbon_i am greeting everyone
10:57:03pixelmaUnhelpful: how complicated would loading albumart for two different displays (pixel formats) be? I just remembered the Iaudio remote control problem again...
10:58:15gibbon_my new clip just arrived and it is a v2... i already suspected that, though. While there seems to be code in svn (that i know is dearly stages development code... i am not asking how to install this) i want to do something useful while (and for) the port is becoming more and more working
10:58:34gibbon_what besides translations and perhaps testing would help this port?
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11:00:14Unhelpfulpixelma: you'd need a remote-format output plugin for the scaler, and a way for the scaler to know to call it. perhaps the format field of the bitmap struct could be used to pass the info? the loader would also have to be called with FORMAT_REMOTE - it's called from buffering.c
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11:00:44Unhelpfulactually, perhaps the output plugin could just check the format flag itself if it's compiled on a target with a remote
11:06:45Unhelpfulhrm, or you could just pass the plugin as a custom output format plugin when loading. that'd involve the smallest amount of new code.
11:16:15*Unhelpful thinks the hardest part is likely to be telling bufopen that it's loading for the remote (without making a big mess)
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11:44:54Mode"#rockbox -o Unhelpful " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
11:46:11Unhelpfulis there any reason developers can op and deop via chanserv, but can't just use chanserv to quiet/unquiet/ban/etc beligerent users?
11:47:06LloreanThat would be nice.
11:48:09Unhelpfulchanserv has commands for it, but i tried it earlier and noticed that i lack permissions to ask chanserv to do things that i could do myself after asking it to op me
11:48:34*Llorean thinks this may be a scorche question.
11:48:39LloreanIsn't he the one who got all the permissions set up?
11:49:11Torne"services permissions are bizarre and arcane" is likely the reason ;)
11:49:42LloreanSounds like a good one
11:49:51Tornealso *does* it have those commands?
11:49:54Torneit has quiet/unquiet..
11:49:56Tornebut i don't see ban
11:49:58Torneor kick
11:50:09Torneonly things that manipulate permanent lists (akick and the like)
11:50:58Unhelpfulyou're right, i don't see ban... which is odd considering that quiet/voice user modes are provided
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11:53:07Tornei suspect dancer services assumes that *because* you can do it by being opped it's not neccessary to hide behind chanserv :)
11:54:14UnhelpfulTorne: and where do voice and quiet fit into that model?
11:54:39*Torne shrugs
11:55:05Torne"IRC services are all awful"?
11:55:06LloreanDoesn't freenode like to extremely discourage bans in favor of mutings?
11:55:19LloreanMaybe it's simply a policy thing "they can do it, but we don't make it easy so maybe they'll stop to think a second"
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12:28:01gibbon_i guess there will be a second build host by me in the next few hours
12:28:28gibbon_even though four minutes are quite fast for a full build round, i suppose the faster, the better
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14:08:05gibbon_i have a question regarding timestretch
14:08:54gibbon_on my iPod mini 1st Generation (r23826) when i enable timestretch, it tells me to reboot
14:09:36*Torne preempts this one. Are you resetting the ipod by holding menu+select? :)
14:09:43gibbon_if i enter the menu again, the setting is still enabled... after rebooting it is disabled again... is this known
14:09:51gibbon_Torne: hm... well, right. yes :P
14:10:07CIA-6New commit by 03tomers (r23846): Skin parser: Use parse_list() when possible
14:10:08Tornedon't do that
14:10:10Tornethat hard-resets the ipod
14:10:15Tornewhich means none of your settings will be saved
14:10:22Tornejust shut it down, and then turn it on again.
14:10:47gibbon_ok... i forgot the proper way to reboot it was turning it off. sorry
14:10:50gibbon_and thanks
14:10:59Tornemenu+select is only if the device has hung and you can't reset it any othe rway
14:11:18gibbon_yes, thats obvious if i think about it
14:11:50markunTorne: nice catch :)
14:12:09markunI wouldn't have even thought about asking that
14:12:28Tornethis is not hte first time :)
14:12:29gibbon_i just found out about that setting and the compressor... i love these features.
14:12:46gibbon_especially the compressor when in the car. thanks.
14:13:51Tornemarkun: it seems quite a few people hard-reset the ipods when our splashes tell them to reboot. pondered what we could do to make it clearer but got nothing :)
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14:14:23markunah, it's the first time I hear it, but I haven't been around much and don't pay that much attention to ipod ports
14:15:27Tornei think it's my second most commonly used support answer, after the way more popular "try turning on dircache"
14:15:30Torne:)
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14:17:52markunmt: can you add something to the FasterMDCT wiki page about the speed of the current MDCT (from Tremor)
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14:26:48mtmarkun: saratoga measured its speed, but I can't remember the actual numbers.
14:27:39markunwas it slower than the one from liba52?
14:27:40mtMore stuff should be added soon to this page anyway, I just need some more free time to do so. :)
14:27:46markunok
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14:59:07n1sshouldn
14:59:37n1s't we define cpu_boost to an empty macro in plugins too to get rid of the #ifdefs like we have done in the core
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15:06:19Jaykayhi.... i have an idea, but maybe its complete bullshit. how about a second... trunk in which the devs can integrate every patch they want to? of course also with something like the current builds so everyone can test it
15:07:13ZagorJaykay: are you under the impression that devs are somehow held back from integrating patches?
15:07:23Jaykayyes.
15:07:27Jaykay:)
15:07:28Zagorby what/who?
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15:08:05Jaykayi think the devs/some of them think that everything in the current build should somehow work, preventing them from integrating patches which might not work
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15:08:27Zagorwell, yeah. what's the point of adding a patch that doesn't work?
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15:08:56Jaykayzagor: not "doesnt work" but maybe cause instabilities
15:09:06Jaykayit would make testing a lot easier
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15:09:39Zagorno. merging a dozen unstable patches would actually make testing a lot harder
15:09:55Zagorit's much better to test one patch at a time.
15:11:00TorneJaykay: i think what you *really* want is a way for people to post patches which causes a build of them to happen, so epople can try the patch without building, maybe? :)
15:11:09Jaykayok... then another freaky idea: if a dev wants to test a patch, he can somehow trigger the buildsystem to give him all builds with his patch. these builds are then hosted on the main page in a category "testing builds"
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15:11:36Jaykaytorne: that would be another (imo very good) idea
15:12:01Tornei've pondered that tbh :)
15:12:13ZagorJaykay: yes, that's a better idea. i'm just now working on the first steps of a user testing framework.
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15:14:07Jaykayzager: cool :)
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15:14:46Jaykayhow would this work? a user gives this framework a patch and a target and gets the build?
15:15:39Zagorno, this has nothing to do with building yet. it's just a database of test cases so we can formalize release testing better.
15:15:55Zagorand make better use of helpful users
15:16:01Jaykaysomething like a checklist?
15:16:06Zagoryeah, sort of
15:16:09*Torne nods, that is indeed a good plan, but is unrealted, no?
15:16:26Zagorunrealted?
15:16:29Torneunrelated
15:16:30Tornesorry :)
15:16:32Zagorah :)
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15:16:46Tornethe build system is incredibly fast and is idle quite a bit. it doesn't seem *entirely* unreasonable to allow devs to do "test" builds on it..
15:17:01Jaykaythats what i thought :)
15:17:05Tornei realise someone would have to do all the work to support that
15:17:11Torneand i'm not volunteering :)
15:17:43Zagorindeed. that's sort of a "step two". in my opinion we need a proper test/reporting tool before there's any point in automated patch builds.
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15:17:54TorneZagor: Hm, perhaps
15:18:02Tornethe current test builds don't seem to ever get tested, that's for sure :)
15:18:10Zagorexactly
15:18:12Torneat all, let alone in a sensible way
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15:19:45Jaykayi wanted to test a test build today but the problem was that an updated version of the patch was available, but not an updated test build :) and as an normal user you don't know wether you should still test this "old" test build....
15:21:11Jaykaywell, but it's cool that someone (zagor) is doing something and keep up the good work and so on :D
15:21:21Tornetalking of old test builds, what're we supposed to do about outdated test builds on the forum? just delete the thread?
15:21:47Jaykaymaybe ask for a new test build?
15:22:03Jaykay(or do some and post them :) )
15:22:04Torneno, i'm not ready to produce one yet :)
15:22:34*Torne tries:
15:23:31Tornegevaerts: the test build you posted on the forum for PP502x ATA DMA is kinda outdated and I'm intending ot make more changes to the DMA code (changing the DMA mode to a higher one, and general cleanups..) - should we just delete it for now?
15:24:34n1sTorne: when test results from a test build are no longer useful i
15:24:39n1s'd say delete it
15:25:25Jaykaybut the dev maybe wants to post a updated build
15:25:33TorneJaykay: I pretty much am the dev for that now :)
15:25:45Tornegevaerts did the test builds before but i'm the one working on the patch it seems
15:26:18Jaykaythen... if the patch is working, why dont you commit it?
15:26:24Tornen1s: well, the changes I made to the generic ata code mean that the DMA test build is pretty obsolete; it will panic in places where it shouldn't (and now doesn't) so the results may be misleading :)
15:26:30TorneJaykay: it's not working
15:26:33Tornewell it is
15:26:35Tornebut it's not done :)
15:26:43Torneamongst other things it currently makes writing to disk slower.
15:26:55Tornesince for some reason i've not yet figured out DMA writes are noticably slower than PIO
15:27:07Tornei'm tidying it up and writing some more benchmarks :)
15:27:29Tornethis DMA stuff has been a bit of an epic odyssey and we're not at the end yet
15:28:33Jaykaycould you explain what this patch is all about? i mean, what are the advantages of it? just less cpu usage..... on what? reading/writing?
15:28:54Torneit makes reading from disk faster, especially when unboosted (it's still faster when boosted but not by as much)
15:29:13Torneand it reduces cpu usage while reading/writing the disk as the thread can yield while it waits for the dma
15:29:35Torneon all PP502x players, primarily tested on ipodvideo but should work on all pp502x that use the IDE controller.
15:29:57n1sshould help the dircache scanning and trying to buffer case a bit then?
15:30:04TorneYes, it speeds up buffering
15:30:11n1sthat's very nice
15:30:15Tornebut there is not a huge gain in runtime with mp3
15:30:25Tornethe gain is higher if you use an expensive codec, i think
15:30:29Tornebut i've not tested that personally
15:30:59n1stest with 96kHz 24bit wav!
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15:31:02TorneHehe
15:31:04Jaykaytorne: the gain will be not that high because you have a lower runtime anyway then :)
15:31:12TorneJaykay: percentage-wise, i mean
15:31:21Jaykayok, true
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15:32:01Torneit was originally theorised that it would help writes too, especially on usb
15:32:08Tornebut it seems not to. i need to investigate why in more detail :)
15:32:25Tornebtw i didn't write this originally, dreamlayers did all the reversing of the OF to find how to use the DMA controller
15:32:31Jaykaywhat has this to do with usb?
15:32:51TorneMSC file transfers are slow on ipod
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15:33:03Tornesome people suspected this was because we weren't doing DMA on the disk
15:33:18Jaykayand whats up with dreamlayers btw? (i didnt see patches/commits for a while)
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15:34:02Torneno idea.
15:34:09Tornehe's vanished for quite a while now
15:34:16Jaykaytorne: so the writing "method" is different when writing over usb instead of... internal copying?
15:34:17Tornei emailed him a while back to ask him about some of his patches and he didn't reply
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15:34:35Tornei've committed several of his patches now ;)
15:34:41Torneand it looks like i'll be committing some more :)
15:34:54Torneno, writing is the same whether rockbox or the host pc over usb is doing it
15:34:57n1s#define rb->cpu_boost(on_off) doesn't work...
15:34:58Jaykaytoo bad, his patches where interesting
15:35:08TorneJaykay: well, i am intersted in most of the stuff he's posted..
15:35:21Torneso for the ones related to hardware i have, i am looking at finishing/committing them :)
15:35:21Jaykaytorne: why should be writing over usb slower then?
15:35:31Torneslower than with the OF, i mean
15:35:38Torneby quite a lot
15:35:47Jaykayah, ok
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15:36:43Tornen1s: no, it won't.. the C preprocessor is token-based, not a simple string replacement
15:36:58Jaykaywell, to come back to the original topic... if you would give me a test build, i would really like to test it :D
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15:37:23n1sTorne: any tips on how to do that then? static inline wrapper?
15:37:39Torneyou could #define cpu_boost(x) as being one of the data members in rb :)
15:37:48Tornethen it will evaluate to an expression with no side effects and get optimised away? :)
15:38:15n1s:)
15:38:47n1swont' we get a lot of "statement has no effect" warnings then?
15:38:52TorneProbably.
15:38:58TorneI assumed you were just doing a quick hack :)
15:39:06 Part r00s
15:39:44Tornei don't know of a better answer, i'm afraid ;)
15:41:10TorneJaykay: when i've done my next set of changes to it and run some more tests locally I will try and produce test builds for all the relevant platforms.
15:41:35Jaykaywhere do you post them?
15:41:47TorneFS #9708
15:41:58Tornei've not posted any changes to the main DMA patch yet
15:42:08Tornei'm still using v0.7 that was resynced by buschel
15:42:25Tornebut i did the other patch that makes it actually work without crashing ;)
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15:47:56n1si planned on a quick hack and a static inline function would work but feels kind of stupid
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15:48:31*n1s looks for other things to "fix"
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15:49:42n1sheh, fun you can do #define foo rb->foo but not the other way around :)
15:49:49TorneWell yes
15:50:11TorneA macro's LHS must be a token, or a token followed by arguments in parens. The RHS can be any number of tokens.
15:50:36TorneThe C preprocessor is not a text substitution program :) It tokenises the input the same way the C compiler does.
15:52:23*n1s dislikes
15:52:44Tornethen alas you will need to use sed/perl/similar to preprocess your code instead :)
15:52:58n1si want it to replace an arbitrary amount of tokens with another arbitrary amount of tokens, dammit!
15:53:28n1sTorne: this is hardly worth hacking sed into the build system :)
15:53:39TorneIndeed :)
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15:59:49***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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16:28:48gevaertsTorne: you may have done it already, but deleting seems like a good idea
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16:29:38Tornei haven't done it already, no
16:29:41Torneshall i just kill the thread?
16:30:29gevaertssure
16:30:49Torne..how do you delete a thread?
16:31:27Tornei'm sure i did this before
16:31:35evilnick_BTorne: Press Remove Topic
16:31:42evilnick_BIt's at the bottom of the page on the left
16:31:49Tornenot on this thread
16:32:07Tornepresumably because it's posted by gevaerts who is also a mod
16:32:42*gevaerts removes it
16:33:26Tornei'll do a new one once i've fiddled with the code a bit more, anyway
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17:49:52Jaykayist MDCT from FasterMDCT "Modified Discrete Cosine Transformation"?
17:52:38topikFlynDice: did you hear of any problem reports on the Fuze after r23835/r23836 ?
17:53:23topikmy Fuze (r23842) gets stuck starting up showing the Rockbox bitmap, the version number and battery/clock
17:53:29topikit doesn't reach the main menu
17:53:42FlynDicetopik: No, haven't heard anything, have you?
17:53:57topiki'm experiencing this
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17:54:45topikif i quickly put the Fuze on hold while it starts, and then back off hold i can get to the menu and use it normally
17:55:30topikit seems to happen just before the blue ring is supposed to get lit
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17:57:22FlynDicetopik: That sounds similar to some things I tried that didn't work... :/
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17:57:48n1sJaykay: yes
17:57:57kugeltopik: have you trued updateing the bootloader?
17:59:02n1sJaykay: it is used in several transform codecs and is using a substantial amount of the cpu cycles
17:59:03topikno, the bootloader is RC1 from a while back
17:59:04Jaykayn1s: and the advantage of it is "only" less cpu-load on some codecs?
17:59:22Jaykayn1s: ok, thanks :)
17:59:35topikthe bar at the top loads, and it shows the rockbox version at the bottom so i'm guessing it's beyond the bootloader at that stage
17:59:37n1sJaykay: yeah, afaiu a faster MDCT has the advantage of beingm well faster
17:59:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:59:58kugeltopik: if you can use rockbox fine after that trick the bootloader might need an update
17:59:59n1ss/m/,/
18:00
18:00:22Jaykayn1s: and what are transform codecs?
18:00:32topiki'll try that, kugel
18:01:01n1sJaykay: codecs that use transforms such as MDCT
18:01:08*kugel hasn't tried that revision yet on his fuze
18:01:18FlynDicekugel: is your fuze working ok or have you even tried it?
18:01:21Jaykayok
18:01:24FlynDicenm...
18:01:28kugel:p
18:01:43topikkugel: it seems to only happen when the fuze is "cold". once i get it tricked to work, it works as usual
18:02:28kugelcan you try rolo'ing rockbox.sansa directly after a boot that needs the trick?
18:03:13topikthat's navigating the file browser to that file and "view" it?
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18:03:50kugeltopik: exactly
18:05:31n1sTorne: re FS #10828 i wouldn't go so far as saying there's no bug in rockbox ;) this situation is a very ugly workaround imo
18:05:48Tornen1s: well, we've previously discussed the fix
18:06:00Tornewhich would be to move plugin/codec buffers to the start of ram, before the main binary, and then detect the memsize at boot
18:06:16n1syeah i hope we get the proper fix one day
18:06:17TorneI guess we could just detect memsize anyway
18:06:17Torneand tlel the user they are wrong
18:06:21Tornethat'd be better than nothing ;)
18:06:56n1syes, and it would be a step in implementing the proper solution
18:07:07Torne"write code to detect ram size" is on my todo list
18:07:18Tornei don't have a 32mb ipod to test on, though :)
18:07:21n1show would one do that, out of curiosity?
18:07:27Tornedepends how the 32mb ones work
18:07:39Torneeither hte second 32mb bank will be missing and will cause an external abort
18:07:45Tornein which case you'll have to trap the abort..
18:08:02Torneor the second is a mirror of the first, which you can detect by writing a magic value somewhere and seeing if the magic value gets mirrored.
18:08:11Tornethe latter is much easier, but it depends how the hardware is wired up :)
18:08:25Tornewell ok there's a third option: missing but doesn't abort either
18:08:35Torneyou can detect tha tby writing and then reading and seeing if you get the right data you just wrote :)
18:08:45topikkugel: the "new" bootloader is saratoga's on the forum?
18:09:05Tornei presume it aborts, since that's what happens when you run code, but it is unfortunately possible that it behaves differently for prefetch vs data
18:09:45n1sTorne: one ugly workaround for this (if rolo is reliable) would be for the main binary to detect ramsize whenb booting and if it was 32MB just rolo a 32MB version
18:09:56n1swhen we can detect the size of course
18:09:57topikkugel: when i rolo it after a tricked boot, it works fine
18:09:58gevaertsTorne: can you invoke rolo as an abort handler? :)
18:10:05Tornegevaerts: i suspect not :)
18:10:12Tornebut i was going to give us a magic abort handler
18:10:33gevaertsactually, that doesn't really work anyway, since the plugins are linked at a different address
18:10:33Torne(a way to signal "yes, i expect to maybe abort here, just tell me if i did")
18:10:58Torneyah
18:11:09n1sgevaerts: right
18:11:27Torneif i get around to it i'll write the code anyway, and someone with a 32mb ipod cna test it
18:11:36Torneif it works we can decide what we want to do then :)
18:11:37n1si guess you guys decided going PIC was a Bad Idea (tm) ?
18:11:50Tornen1s: it seems to be massively impractical without gcc changes
18:12:02Torneand even then probably suboptimal
18:12:02gevaertsexcept if you build with a different ROCKBOX_DIR of course...
18:12:03n1sthat's what i gathered
18:12:21kugeln1s: the problem isn't the main binary. plugins and codecs are
18:12:24Tornethe "best" option would probably be to implement an actual relocatin gloader in rockbox, worryingly, and not do PIC at all
18:12:27n1sgevaerts: yes, it could work with an amazingly hacked up build :)
18:12:42Tornebut that would be a reasonably huge effort for maybe not *that* big a benefit
18:12:50Tornei'm certainly not about to volunteer for it
18:12:52Torne:)
18:12:54gevaerts"hm, this ipod looks much more like an x5, better rolo that one" :)
18:12:59n1skugel: partially, the main binary will still try to write outside ram
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18:13:48kugelI mean the "ugly rolo the 32MB binary" doesn't work
18:14:14n1skugel: yeah, gevaerts mentioned that
18:14:24kugeloh I didn't see that
18:14:31Torneyeah we can just print a message. or fix the memory map so two seperate builds are not needed.
18:14:33n1sand i din't think of it
18:14:36Tornemore likely one then the other
18:15:00Tornei'm still trying to sort DMA for now though ;)
18:15:42n1swhat would such a relocating loader have to do? change fixed addresses in the binary?
18:16:48gevaertsWe could just link the plugins and codecs at the start, "just" after the main binary, with some sort of safety margin. That wastes some RAM, but it shouldn't be more than a few hundreds of KB, and these are 32MB players at least. Not optimal, but it would work
18:17:24kugelwhy not before the main binary even
18:17:40Tornebefore the main binary is a slighlty more invasive change, but not impossible from my brief investigation
18:17:45Torneit just needs someone to fuck about sufficiently
18:17:46Torne:)
18:18:16kugelTorne: invasive? it shouldn't be more than fixing a few lines in the linker scripts
18:18:25Tornethe bootloader needs to be changed also..
18:18:28gevaertskugel: you still need to load the thing :)
18:18:43Torneand then people would need to upgrade their bootloaders, of course
18:18:56kugelnot necessarily
18:19:18Tornewell you could have the main binary relocate itself
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18:19:20gevaertsEither you change the bootloader, with *no* backward compatibility (i.e. upgrade at the same time), or you have the main binary relocate itself
18:19:20Tornebut that sucks :)
18:19:24n1sdo we then link the main binary to a static address and change that on the fly in the loader
18:19:26n1s?
18:20:00Tornegevaerts: well you could be backward compatible, if you tried, actually
18:20:06Tornegevaerts: you could change the model string or similar
18:20:11Torneso the bootloader could tell the difference
18:20:15gevaertstrue
18:20:20kugelcrt0.S could look for the address it's running at, if it's the old area then move the binary before jumping to main
18:20:28Tornethe size of th ebootloader is not so critical, i think?
18:20:35Tornethere's plenty of room in the firmware partition ;)
18:20:44Torneroom for a few more lines of code
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18:20:51n1scertainly
18:20:53Tornekugel: having to relocate is silly though :)
18:21:28Tornethis would break my OSOS loading code, though, actually
18:21:33kugelI don't see what's bad with breaking bootloaders
18:21:34Tornebecause the apple rom always loads OSOS to the start of DRAM
18:21:50kugelwe have just released v6 so svn should be stable. and updating is really easy with rbutil
18:21:50Torneso to preserve that feature it owuld have to be able to relocate itself :)
18:21:59Tornewe didn't even release a new bootloader for ipod
18:22:15Torne(which i forgot to poke people about)
18:22:24Torne(since the svn bootloader has the OSOS loading feature and the release one doesn't)
18:22:41Torneipod bootloader is different to the other PP bootloaders
18:22:53kugelupdating is still easy with rbutil..
18:23:18kugelwe never guaranteed that bootloaders never need updates
18:23:26Torneyah, bootloader updating on ipod is painless.
18:23:30Torneand recoverable
18:23:50gevaertsno, but we need to have the bootloader load older revisions at least. As Torne said, not that hard, but it needs to be done I think
18:23:53Tornechanging the model or similar, so we can detect a mismatch, would be good
18:24:04Tornethe error for failing to update won't be very good
18:24:43Tornebut it's better than it crashing :)
18:25:00*Torne is slightly disappointed that this breaks OSOS booting though :)
18:25:23Tornethat *would* require a relocation stub
18:25:46Tornewe could do both, of ocurse
18:26:21gevaertsyes, but should we? If you write this relocation stub, is there a good reason to break bootloaders left?
18:26:26topikkugel, FlynDice : newly compiled bootloader makes no difference
18:26:34n1sI agree with gevaerts, sometimes testing older versions can be usefull and having to switch the bootloader is annoying, especially since it should be pretty easy to keep compatibility
18:26:43Tornegevaerts: well, there will be *some* speed impact, but it's probably pretty small
18:27:09gevaertsabout 0.1 seconds or so I guess
18:27:15gevaertsat most
18:28:04Tornei suspect we have a PIC memcpy() in crt0 anyway, for the ram remapping thing?
18:28:18FlynDicetopik: Do you know which revision made it start?
18:29:11Tornewell, we don't actually, it just inlines the trival one word at a time one
18:29:18kugelTorne: no "memcpy" but moving sections around happens already
18:29:24Torneyah
18:30:33kugelbranching to main might be tricky if main is not a fixed address
18:30:49Torneit would be by the time it goes to branch to it..
18:30:59topikFlynDice: r23842 is the first one i noticed it on. before i used one a couple of days old
18:31:29kugelTorne: how?
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18:31:42Torneyou do this in crt0.. right after remapping ram
18:31:43kugelthe old binary expects to be run from a different address
18:32:18FlynDicetopik: does uSd or no uSD make any difference?
18:32:26Tornehrm?
18:32:30topiki can build something from before your updates from r23829 onwards.
18:32:30Tornei'm not sure what you mean
18:32:36topikhaven't tried without uSD. moment.
18:33:03kugelif you do compatibility, you either move the old binary to the original, or the new one to the new place. in either way the old and new binary have main() at different addresses
18:33:47topikfirst time without uSD worked. but i'm not sure i waited long enough between tries for the issue to happen
18:33:50Torneno, you have the new binary able to relocate itself if it finds it's been loaded at the wrong address, and you have the new bootloader able to tell the difference between new and old binaries in order to know where to load them to
18:34:09Tornethen all combinations work; the combination of old bootloader and new binary just is slightly slower to start because of the copying.
18:34:44Torneand it never matters where main() is..
18:35:04Tornemain is called from crt0, not the bootloader
18:35:27Tornebootloader calls start, which is always the first word in the loaded image.
18:35:29n1sthat is a clever solution :)
18:35:40Tornen1s: it would also make OSOS loading work :)
18:36:01Tornebut as gevaerts said if you are going ot have the relocatoin code anyway do you even need to bother messing around with the bootloader like aht?
18:36:18Tornethe relocation probably doesn't take very long; it's just copying half a meg from one place to another in ram.
18:36:27kugelTorne: ah right, main isn't called from the bl, my bad
18:37:10kugel1 and a half meg, rather
18:37:16gevaertsTorne: the main problem with having it in two places is that after a while only one of them will actually be used anymore, and the other could well break silently
18:37:29Tornegevaerts: yeah
18:37:54Tornekugel: no, under 700kb
18:38:06gevaertsWe can solve that by removing it after six months or so, but I'd still like to see the actual speed impact first
18:38:10kugelsurely initialized data needs to be moved as well?
18:38:14Tornekugel: yes, that's included
18:38:21FlynDicetopik: I'm actually getting the same exact symptom, stuck at same place, trying to get 4 bit bus working on the uSD. Of course it's always there right now.....
18:38:23Tornerockbox.ipod is 686,072 bytes in the current build..
18:38:34Tornethat's all the data you need to move, by definition
18:38:37kugel:/
18:38:40kugelsorry again :)
18:38:55FlynDicetopik: How long does it take to get "cold" again...?
18:39:06topik5 minutes?
18:39:24topiki'm glad you're able to reproduce it. that gives us users a far bigger chance of a solution :)
18:39:29kugelgevaerts: either people keep using old bootloaders, then we will now when it breaks; or nobody will use old bootloaders anymore, then we don't care of the old one is broken, isn't it?
18:39:52FlynDicetopik: Could you wait 10 mins then and give it a try withou the uSD?
18:40:06topikof course
18:40:26gevaertskugel: yes and no. It adds maintenance overhead in the long term, and people might assume that it works when needing it for some reason
18:40:32FlynDicetopik: Thanks, I'll be here
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18:42:09Tornewell when I'm bored of DMA i will probably try this ;)
18:42:26kugelstuff in crt0 is usually rock solid over a very long term, meaning that once it works it never breaks again, so I don't expect it to be a problem
18:42:30Tornesee how trivial it is to remap everything and see how long it takes to have the binary reloc itself.
18:42:45Torneif it's negligible then we might as well leave the bootloader alone
18:43:10Tornethere's no benefit to changing it *other* than eliminating the reloc time.
18:44:00kugelI doubt it will be noticeable afterall
18:44:32gevaertskugel: if the relocation takes 0.5 seconds, we should probably do both. If takes 0.05 seconds, I vote to leave the bootloader alone
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18:45:19*kugel counts <= 0.5-0.7s as unnoticeable
18:45:39n1si agree with that
18:45:50TorneAh, one problem is that at this early stage in booting the cache will be off :)
18:46:00Torneso it might tkae longer than you would think :(
18:46:03gevaertsTorne: is it? Isn't cache useless for this?
18:46:09kugelwe shouldn't be discussing breaking bootloaders until it exceeds 1s even IMO
18:46:13Tornegevaerts: depends how prefetching balances out :)
18:46:33Tornegevaerts: i'm not sure what optimal timing is for the PP with its weird cache
18:46:43n1skugel: wasn't the plan *not* to break the bootloader
18:46:53Tornebut for ARM9/ARM11 type caches the cache will prefetch in a very helpful way if you arrange the code nicely, and give you substantially faster copies
18:47:07kugels/breaking/touching/ :)
18:47:16gevaertsn1s: the plan is not to break the bootloader, but we're allowed to change it :)
18:47:21n1stoo bad we have no arm9/11 targets with varying ram size :)
18:47:33n1sgevaerts: that's what i meant
18:47:39Tornen1s: if we did they'd probably have MMUs anyway
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18:47:48kugelcaches are disabled after the bootloader finishes?
18:47:57Tornekugel: no, crt0 disables the cache shortly after starting
18:48:05Tornebecause it's copying code to iram and then relocating RAM to 0
18:48:07n1sTorne: ah, yes, no need to copy
18:48:11Tornewhich would go horribly wrong if caching was still inplace :)
18:48:17Torneor at least, need flushes
18:48:20Torneeasier to disable it.
18:48:39Torneespecially since you can only blow away the whole cache at once on pp as far as we know :)
18:49:19gevaertshm, iram...
18:49:38gevaertsThat means that the amount of data to copy is actually slightly smaller :)
18:49:45Tornegevaerts: yeah, you can skip that part.
18:50:29n1sdoes the bootloader copy iram sections to iram currently or does crt0 do that too?
18:50:33Tornecrt0 does that as well
18:50:50n1spotential for optimization then!
18:50:58Tornethe bootloade rliterally just loads rockbox.ipod minus the header to the start of ram and then branches to the start of ram.
18:51:18Tornemeh, it's better to minimise coupling between them in general :)
18:51:21JdGordon|kugel: is there any reason you didnt origionally just clear the entire display if viewport_set_statusbar(true) happened?
18:51:36JdGordon|instead of using the events you added
18:51:41n1sTorne: yeah, j/k
18:51:58kugelJdGordon: yes, for the same reason your latest patch adds massively erratric flickers everywhere
18:52:10JdGordon|massivly eratic flickers?!
18:52:23kugelI was using a build with your patch today
18:52:40kugelthe clear_display you added is very noticeable
18:53:18JdGordon|massivly erratic though? and everywhere?
18:53:20Torneanyway, this is on my list of "things i kinda care about and will maybe look at when i get a chance", so who knows, we might find the answer to how long it takes at some point :)
18:53:34kugeland being in viewport_set_statusbar isn't sufficient
18:53:45JdGordon|also, I wouldnt use that build just yet... it will panic if you enter the wps too often
18:53:58kugelit didn't panic for me
18:53:58JdGordon|why not?
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18:54:52topikFlynDice: cold, without uSD it starts fine
18:54:58kugelthe event is also used for clearing some splashes and some other stuff where viewport_set_statusbar isn't called
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18:55:40FlynDicetopik: Now when you pop the card in does it init ok?
18:55:57topikthat's what i tried, it works fine
18:56:16kugelJdGordon|: going from the main menu to any item results in a noticeable (single) flicker
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18:56:39kugelit's worst in the sbs area, but but also noticeable in the list area
18:57:02JdGordon|ok, that was a very naive first go..
18:57:05FlynDicetopik: What kind of card?
18:57:07kugelthat's why the event draws the statusbar and can take a redraw function, the flicker is killed with that
18:57:45topikhow do i give you more info beyond "sandisk sdhc 8GB" ?
18:58:09FlynDicetop
18:58:19FlynDicewhoops
18:58:43kugelthe good thing about the patch: all plugins magically show the sbs properly and only in its menu (and not where it's not wanted)
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18:59:50FlynDicetopik: Can you go into system/debug/view disk info and tell me if speed is 50.0 MBit/sec
19:00
19:00:00kugelJdGordon|: if enter_wps() can be called multiple times without leave_wps() after each, it seems like a bug to me
19:00:42JdGordon|yes
19:01:04JdGordon|oh, the problem is the the if (restore) block in the main loop
19:01:27topikFlynDice: it only lists the internal storage i think. microsd 0. which runs at 25MBit/s
19:01:39topikoops,
19:01:40FlynDicepress select
19:01:47topikmicrosd 1 is at 25Mbit/s too
19:02:18kugelJdGordon|: restore should only be true after the wps is (re)entered from some other screen (where leave_wps() was called before)
19:02:54FlynDicenow I find that intersting... means it's not getting changed to high speed timings
19:03:15kugelJdGordon|: I'm not able to trigger a panic
19:03:31JdGordon|yeah, except also happens after changing volume(!) and I think possibly after a while of nothing
19:03:33topikdo any of the other numbers mean anything to you?
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19:03:59JdGordon|just go wps->menu->wps about 7 time I think
19:04:13funmanI wish USB would work so we could use debugging through usb serial
19:04:38funmandid anyone look at reusing the ipod nano 2g usb code on sansa ams ?
19:05:11FlynDicetopik: well, I know what they mean but as far as this goes I don't think they matter..
19:05:25kugelJdGordon|: update_on_volchange() only returns true on charcell, never on lcd_bitmap (don't ask me why)
19:05:46FlynDicewould you recycle that card and see if it stays at 25?
19:05:55JdGordon|oh goody
19:06:12JdGordon|maybe its a sim only thing.. either way it needs to be fixed :)
19:06:22topikno change, FlynDice
19:07:32kugelone of the widely available (j/k) charcell users should check if restoring the wps is actually needed
19:08:26kugelI can imagine that's simply a left-over from pre-skin engine times
19:08:32FlynDiceI find it hard to believe a sandisk 8GB sdhc is not a v2 card... no I'm not doubting you just typing while I think...
19:08:35JdGordon|probably
19:09:03topiki doubt i still have the packaging. the card came with the fuze as a freebie
19:09:08FlynDicetopik: How old is the card?
19:09:15funmanbertrik: did you see http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive//rockbox-dev-archive-2009-12/0009.shtml ?
19:09:21kugelI thought HC was always v2?
19:09:29FlynDiceme too...
19:09:58funmanyou could dump the csd and check
19:10:20bertrikfunman, yes, I'm fine with reverting that
19:10:52bertrikthis TEST1 register is a bit weird
19:11:00funmanbertrik: do you remember how you made this commit ?
19:11:10topikthere is a circled 2 on the card
19:11:19funmanthat would help fixing FM on e200v2 (and c200v2?)
19:11:20bertrikmy change seemed to make it work better on c200v2, but it didn't help much
19:11:23FlynDiceThats speed class I think
19:11:50FlynDicewhich is still HS
19:11:51funmanbertrik: i already reverted the c200v2 change, this commit is about e200v2 (from June)
19:11:56bertrikfm on e200v2 should work without this patch too
19:11:59bertrikoh, ok
19:12:22bertrikfm on e200v2 wouldn't work at all with my change from june
19:12:31bertrikargh, *without*
19:12:49kugelJdGordon|: the event probably needs to stay, but it could be changed into a function call since it's always active since a while (it was only active when custom ui vp is used originally)
19:13:05funmanok but it looks illegal according to my datasheet, did you make this change after reverse engineering the FM code ?
19:13:07JdGordon|that would be fine
19:13:30JdGordon|I really dont like using events as function calls which is sort of what it is in svn
19:13:30bertrikfunman, I don't know exactly anymore
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19:14:12funmanwasn't the devcon in june ?
19:14:18scorcheUnhelpful: as Torne mentioned, dancer doesnt really let you do those things without being op anyway - their philosophy is more of an open one, so someone hiding by not being opped and issuing out kicks and such is not desirable...while there are some commands that chanserv allows you to do, you must be opped in order for it to allow you to do it
19:14:51funmanright, this commit was made during devcon
19:15:18kugelJdGordon|: it made sense to be an event at first; I also thought about possibly having more callbacks but it turned out not needed
19:15:31bertrikfunman, I tested it on domonoky's e200v2
19:16:27bertrikI think we should make a list of exactly what fm chip is used in what ams sansa player, and what works for each revision
19:17:02JdGordon|kugel: fine.. I'm thinking that the screen clear shuold work everywhere (with a bit more smarts) with the worst happening is a black screen for a tiny fraction of a second.. even with the splash
19:17:05funmaniirc there was different chips in different hardware revisions of Clipv1
19:17:09bertrikI'm pretty sure all of the ams sansas need the XOSC_EN bit set somehow in the TEST1 register
19:17:29funmanright, but what is bit 8 ?
19:18:32JdGordon|it should be able to clear the screen fully every time it goes from theme off to theme on without any delay because the screen is always redrawn instantly in that case
19:18:52JdGordon|the problem is the lcd_update() which needs to happen after the clear because the nxt screen doesnt update the full display
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19:19:05funmanbertrik: another thing, did you see my forum post about mkamsboot/c200v2 ?
19:19:27bertrikthe DBOP thing?
19:19:33JdGordon|in the case of the splash, this would work because it would disable the them, draw (without clearing the display), then reenable it when leaving
19:19:40funmanyes, use DBOP to read buttons in dualboot.S
19:20:01funmani could do it and ask you to test before putting a test build on the forum
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19:21:49bertrikfunman, I think I prefer using simple GPIO instead of DBOP in the bootloader, it's much simpler and easier to verify for correctness
19:22:16kugelJdGordon|: the problem is that a blank screen even for a split second is noticeable and ugly :/
19:22:18funmanbertrik: but appears to not work on some c200v2
19:22:47kugeldoing it right requires more than "a bit more smarts" I fear
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19:23:12kugelit looks like the event is the best we can do right now
19:23:15JdGordon|kugel: yes, agreed.. but it should happen too quickly to be seen :( does the lcd drivers have a way of saying "do a full update next update call.. regardless of the viewport?"
19:23:47JdGordon|that would fix the issue
19:23:52JdGordon|s/fix/remove
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19:24:06kugelhm, that could probably work
19:24:41FlynDicetopik: Right now I'm guessing(and hoping ;-) ) this is an issue with your particular card. Of course you may just be the first to experience it.. Please don't feel like I'm discounting your problem. I will keep it in mind as I look over the code.
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19:25:19FlynDiceand see if others start reporting similar problems
19:25:30topikno no, not at all. i appreciate you listening to me and working on making my Fuze even better
19:25:49topiki read about people with uSD problems before and never had any myself. so i figured i'd report it since it only just started happening
19:26:16kugelin your current patch, the flicker seems to happen unecessarily too though. I wouldn't like to do clear_display too often just because
19:26:59FlynDicesandisks are usually "bulletproof" from my experience with complaints!
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19:27:16saratogaamiconn: "29-105% faster apply_filter, 6-90% faster ape decoding on core2"
19:27:33saratogayou paid attention to any of the ffmpeg optimizations to the ape decoder?
19:27:46topiki can try building an older revision from just before your set of changes and see what the speed is then
19:28:13FlynDiceIf you're willing to spend the time I'd be interested!
19:28:19funmansaratoga: some of these are x86 asm no?
19:28:27saratogadon't know if they're even applicable to fixed point though
19:28:47topikany revision you'd prefer?
19:28:47saratogafunman: yeah, but the idea might be portable
19:28:55saratoga(I don't actually know how APE works)
19:35:55kugelasm is by definition not "portable", isn't it? :)
19:36:13kugelyou might be able to port it nevertheless though :p
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19:38:31funmanyeah but it's not only asm
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19:45:19funmanbertrik: can you try http://pastie.org/727839 please ?
19:45:36funmanthe check for usb connection is made before the button check so it's safe
19:46:14funmandual-boot button should be the left button
19:47:29gibbon_i was just wondering, if its possible to change some of the rockbox settings from a playlist
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19:48:24bertrikfunman, ok I'll try it later tonigh
19:48:25gibbon_for example by adding a config file to the playlist that is "played"
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19:50:27gibbon_this might seem a little odd, but especially for sing along stuff and so on i want to adjust the pitch of songs per situation or the EQ or Channel config
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19:58:37kugelfunman: "ldr r1, =0xa167e06f" works? I thought immediates are limited to shifted variants of +-4096
19:59:18kugelor does as automatically convert it?
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20:00:20funmanldr doesn't take immediates, mov does
20:00:41funmanldr rX, =ZZZZ will place ZZZ in memory near the ldr instruction
20:01:59kugelso it's conerted to a ldr rX, [pc+Y] by the assembler
20:04:29funmanyep
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20:16:53kugelsaratoga: I noticed someone at abi made a guide for a DIY "dock" that uses the line-out of the fuze
20:18:37kugelI just wonder what diyLOD is
20:19:15kugelmaybe do-it-your-self-line-out-dock? :S
20:20:00n1sor do-it-yourself-Laser-Of-Doom
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21:48:06tubafishI was wondering if anyone might have an idea of what might be causing this situation. In my car, I have a Sony Xplod head unit. It features Sony's 1-wire control. With that feature, you should be able to control your MP3 player from the head unit. It is compatible with my rockboxed Sansa Clip, yet it fails to recognize my rockboxed 80gb 5.5generation iPod video. Does anyone know of any workarounds or what might be happening?
21:50:05JdGordon|how does it control the clip?
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21:54:51Byancan you customize the whole menu?
21:55:11JdGordon|not without recompiling your own build
21:55:25Byan=(
21:55:27Byanwhy not?
21:55:44JdGordon|because its something most people here dont want to allow
21:56:00Byanweird.. cause it was one of the best features of the iPod firmware >_>
21:56:25Byananyway, is bleeding edge usually stable, or should I edit the source of a release?
21:57:09JdGordon|the release is a mostly arbitrary point in time where we make a copy of the last nightly and call it release
21:57:29kugel_yea totally...
21:58:00Byanlol, ok
21:58:18gevaertsthat was more or less the case for 3.4, but it definitely wasn't for 3.0 and 3.1
21:58:43gevaertsand making it into some sort of slogan is not going to fix things
21:59:13Byangevaerts: hrm?
21:59:16Byanslogan?
21:59:37kugel_we already talked more about the release 1 week before the freeze now than in total about 3.4 :)
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22:00:06gevaertsByan: don't bother. Internal arguments between devs
22:00:18Byanalright >_>
22:00:33Byanso, whats the reason for not allowing the entire menu to be customized anyway?
22:00:57 Quit tubafish ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
22:01:12gevaertsThe official reason is that it will cause support headaches, as you can't tell people where to find options anymore
22:01:25Byan>_>
22:01:43Byanthats a stupid ass reason, imo
22:01:48Byanbut, ok
22:01:53JdGordon|yes.. yes it is
22:01:54gevaertsyou're not doing the support :)
22:02:13Byangevaerts: maybe there should be an easy way to get into the default menu
22:02:17Byanjust for that case
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22:02:37n1show is it usefull though? imo it's just a gimmic feature
22:02:43Byann1s: what?
22:02:53gevaertsAlso of course, any such option will have a cost in CPU and memory, and we have some low-memort targets where that might be a problem
22:02:56Byanno, for instance, I like to use the sleep feature alot
22:03:13Byanto get to it I have to do like..
22:03:17Byan4 menu selects..
22:03:20ByanI'd like it to be 1..
22:03:32kugel_go code it then, the source is yours
22:03:38ByanI plan on it
22:03:43AlexPPutting ... after every sentence doesn't make it more likely to happen :)
22:03:47Byanit's checking out right now >_>
22:04:02kugel_we don't even need to discuss inclusion as long as nobody is doing the work
22:04:07ByanAlexP: we won't know unless we try
22:04:08gevaertsAnyway, right now the project standpoint is "no", but we know people want it, and I plan to make sure it (and other similar standpoints) gets on the agenda for the next devcon.
22:04:18AlexPByan: How is that related to what I said?
22:04:37Byanit was just a joke..
22:04:46Byangevaerts: sounds good
22:05:22n1seven if the project changes its mind someone needs to code it
22:05:54Byanit sounds trivial to code
22:06:01Byanin comparison to most things that rockbox has..
22:06:09*JdGordon| has said many times that making the menu entirely customisable is piss easy and very low resource wastes...
22:06:49 Quit tmzt (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:07:01gevaertsthe best way to force a discussion is a patch :)
22:07:09LloreanByan: Can the sleep timer not be put in the quick screen?
22:07:19gevaertsIt might turn out to be a flamewar instead of a discussion though
22:07:19JdGordon|probably not
22:07:28 Quit Casainho (Connection timed out)
22:07:29JdGordon|gevaerts: "might"?!
22:08:03AlexPI'm not a big fan of customisable menus, but I don't really care - we just tell people they need to reset the menus to default to get support. If they are able to find their way around without doing that then all power to them
22:08:44AlexPI already customise my menus by building without the database :)
22:08:57gevaertsJdGordon|: no comment :)
22:09:03LloreanAlexP: I think there needs to be a lot of safeguards in place too. Inability to remove items (just reposition them), ability to reset the menus on-target without resetting your settings, things like that.
22:09:54AlexPLlorean: sure, but if the general idea is approved, then those are just (albeit important) details
22:09:56 Join Casainho [0] (n=chatzill@87-196-81-204.net.novis.pt)
22:10:16Byanhonestly, I just realized what the quick screen is
22:10:31Byanthat thing is awfully annoying actually, cause I use it by mistake all the time
22:10:36LloreanAlexP: Well if someone wants to get the idea approved, they should put a lot of effort into making the patch mitigate things most likely to be complained about *before* they show up with it for further discussion
22:10:39Byanwhere do I change the settings for it?
22:10:51AlexPLlorean: A fair point
22:11:04Byanoh, context menu..
22:11:06AlexPByan: Context menu on the setting you want
22:11:07Byanok
22:11:21Byananyway
22:11:23Byanthat reminds me
22:11:24LloreanAlexP: The first time they bring a patch in there, people are going to say what it's missing. Some people take that as "complaints" rather than "I should now try to address these"
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22:12:06JdGordon|why cant options be completly removed?
22:12:08Byanis there a way to set it so that when you plug in a cable it charges by default instead of starting the HDD mode thing?
22:12:43Byancause I forgot to hold menu about half the time >_>
22:13:14LloreanJdGordon|: Because people may remove an option without realizing they need it. Instead they should be limited to putting it somewhere out of the way (say an "Advanced" submenu or whatnot) so that if they do screw up, they can get to it without resetting settings
22:13:29AlexPByan: Swap the logic in the code
22:13:30LloreanSince I doubt there's going to be an effective menu organization UI outside of a plugin or editing .cfgs.
22:13:42ByanAlexP: lol, alright >_>
22:14:21LloreanByan: I think there used to be a patch on the tracker with an option for toggling between "charge on default" and "UMS on default"
22:14:27JdGordon|Llorean: if they can figure out the menu organisation config (however its done) then they are smart enough to not worry about that.. I think thats a rediculous requirement
22:14:27 Join dutchie [0] (n=josh@pdpc/supporter/student/dutchie)
22:14:31JdGordon|and hard to implement
22:15:19Byancouldn't you just make it so that there are two configs.. one that they are suppose to edit
22:15:27Byanand that if you hold a button on start, it uses the default instead
22:15:47LloreanJdGordon|: Oh yes, people *never* make mistakes.
22:15:55LloreanAnd then find themselves in a week trip without PC access.
22:16:05LloreanSeriously, what's wrong with having a little bit of safety for the user in there?
22:16:12dutchiemy nano 2g is not appearing mounting right. excerpt from dmesg: http://pastebin.com/m10964b4 on ubuntu karmic
22:16:50LloreanByan: Rebooting the player is actually pretty battery intensive. Is there some reason why it's significantly "bad" to say "you can just reorganize, not remove"?
22:16:56dutchieI can mount it manually on the CLI, but not through any GUI
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22:17:16ByanLlorean: because.. writing the stuff to reorganize is harder than just having a config file to parse
22:17:29ByanI mean, what happens right now if someone screws up their tagnavi file on accident..
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22:17:42LloreanByan: Tagnavi doesn't prevent use of the player if it's messed up.
22:17:45gevaertsByan: then they throw away the tagnavi file?
22:17:55Byangevaerts: but they are "without PC access"
22:17:58JdGordon|do the same with the menu config file
22:18:11gevaertsByan: so? rockbox has a file browser
22:18:19Byangevaerts: oh, right
22:18:21LloreanByan: How is "reorganize" harder than "just having a config file to parse" - if they miss a setting in their parsed config file (either by typo or by leaving it out) it ends up in the default tree location it would normally have. Bam, done, can't remove settings
22:18:24gevaertsJdGordon|: you just disabled the "file" entry
22:18:45JdGordon|then reset the settings on boot
22:18:50ByanLlorean: oh, well, there ya go
22:18:52ByanLlorean: thats a fine idea?
22:19:23*gevaerts isn't convinced either way
22:19:47 Quit webguest38 (Client Quit)
22:20:03LloreanAlso, the less buttons a user can hold and cause things to happen on boot, the better.
22:20:05gevaertsReset on boot is a bit annoying if it resets everything, and another button to hold doesn't sound that good either
22:20:29JdGordon|reset on boot is there exactly for that reason...
22:20:32LloreanOn some players I seem to recall detecting certain buttons on boot being really unreliable anyway.
22:20:47gevaertsLlorean: from the bootloader, or from the main build?
22:20:53LloreanJdGordon|: So basically the option is "get your menu right on boot, or lose all your settings"
22:21:16JdGordon|and thats not reasonable why?
22:21:34Byanhow often are people going to have bad config files..
22:21:39Lloreangevaerts: I think some players it's "we can't detect buttons if they've been held from before power on" and others they won't be detected if they're held and it transitions from bootloader to build. Not sure.
22:21:51gevaertsah, that sounds likely
22:21:53LloreanByan: If you're asking them to reorganize the whole menu to their liking, fairly often.
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22:22:08LloreanJdGordon|: Because it's possible to be more user friendly than that very easily?
22:22:26LloreanIs there some reason we have to do things in the way most able to let users shoot themselves in their foot?
22:22:33JdGordon|save your settings in a seperate .cfg and there is no issue
22:22:59gevaertsI think there's something else to consider. Are you going to allow configuring the menus from within rockbox, or not? If not, the reset issue is a lot less important I think
22:23:04JdGordon|there is a reason C is such a powerful language...
22:23:15Byangevaerts: I agree..
22:23:28Lloreangevaerts: Less important if you can't change them in Rockbox?
22:24:08LloreanJdGordon|: Or there's no issue if you make a minimal step to make it "safer" for users.
22:24:17LloreanWhy exactly is disabling the removal of items *bad8?
22:24:41JdGordon|so go ahead and implement that... you ovbisouly had no clue as to how hard that would be to do in the code
22:24:50LloreanIt provides a very significant layer of safety, and the only "inconvenience" is that somewhere buried deep under things you'll know a few settings are there.
22:25:26 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
22:25:30gevaertsLlorean: if you have to edit a config file, I think people are a lot more likely to do it from a real text editor, and I suspect that a lot more of them will test basic functionality. If you have a nice menu editor plugin, people will edit their menus whenever they're bored
22:25:40JdGordon|the option I've brought up just about every time we have this argument is force the full current menu system in the top menu...
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22:26:08ByanJdGordon|: well, if all you did is require the user to place a "Advanced" or "StuffIDon'tWant" folder somewhere.. and then everything that isn't placed would just go in there?
22:26:14ByanI don't see a problem with that
22:26:15Lloreangevaerts: I'm not sure I'd trust people to test basic functionality just because they use a text editor (specifically, the presence of settings they've forgotten about or don't know what do)
22:26:18Byanit'd be easy
22:26:30AlexPJdGordon|: You mean the top level, not the top item of the top level I hope :)
22:26:37JdGordon|yes
22:27:00gevaertsLlorean: maybe not, but I feel a lot more comfortable telling them to wipe all their settings if they could *easily* have made sure nothing bad would have happened
22:27:06JdGordon|Byan: no, that would mean a pretty big waste keeping track of which items are not put somewhere
22:27:23Byanyou'd only have to calculate it once >_>
22:27:40JdGordon|but the whole argument is just stupid... the first thing support says after "are you usign a current build" is "have you tried resetting your settings"
22:27:54Byanhaha >_>
22:27:55LloreanJdGordon|: You may have noticed I didn't talk about support at all
22:28:10LloreanI talked about user friendliness, and helping people avoid shooting themselves in the foot. Because of situations where support *isn't* available.
22:28:45LloreanThese are portable players, the worst case should always be assumed to be "I have nobody else around, and no computer." In that situation, try to make fixing things as non-destructive as possible.
22:29:21 Quit kugel_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:29:26*JdGordon| gives up... if someone 2wants technical help to implement this I'm open to help.. otherwsie i just dont care anymore
22:30:01ByanJdGordon|: you can always implement the version without safe guards and improve it later >_>
22:30:32JdGordon|my todo list is way longer than time avialble...
22:30:41ByanI can't blame you for that
22:31:10Byanlol, if I were so rich I didn't have to work...
22:31:15Byanso much stuff I'd want to do..
22:32:04ByanLlorean: you have any more ideas on where I could find that patch?
22:32:50LloreanByan: No clue, sorry
22:32:51 Join captainkwel [0] (i=2669ecc2@gateway/web/freenode/x-brkixouqkkeakbgv)
22:33:29Byanalright
22:33:29CIA-6New commit by 03bluebrother (r23848): Fix "Warning: Signals cannot be declared virtual" for progresslogger when building with Qt 4.6.
22:36:25LloreanByan: I think it was held up because it also included discussion of reorganizing what button is held for USB connection, etc.
22:36:48 Join swistach [0] (n=sdsfs@ens53.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
22:37:03swistachjest tu jaki polak?
22:37:16AlexPEnglish please
22:38:44swistachOk. someone from Poland? I need help.
22:39:20 Quit GeekShadow (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:39:52ByanLlorean: yeah.. the current method is bad..
22:40:27Byanthe best solution, in my opinion, is you plug it in, and then it asks you if you want to start UMS
22:40:39LloreanThat's pretty slow if you've actually learned how to use it.
22:40:47LloreanIt's only really useful the first dozen times you plug in or so.
22:40:58gevaertsByan: in my opinion that's the absolutely worst possible option
22:41:03AlexPByan: That is a highly annoying wasye of time
22:41:08AlexP*waste
22:41:13 Quit swistach (Client Quit)
22:41:15Byan>_> lol, ok, nevermind
22:41:35ByanI guess I am in the majority that 95% of the time they plug it in they are only charging
22:41:55Byanand starting UMS is very time wasteful if you idnd't mean to
22:41:59Byanminority*
22:42:12AlexPSo hold the button
22:42:34ByanI don't always remember to..
22:42:35LloreanByan: A lot of players also have standalone chargers where holding the button isn't necessary, so the only time you attach to a PC WOULD be to sync because charging there is a lot slower.
22:42:37pixelmaeven then holding a button while plugging is faster then waiting for the menu or even navigating it
22:42:37JdGordon|Byan: word of caution.... stop with the >_> and lols
22:42:44AlexPByan: I can't help you with that
22:43:09ByanJdGordon|: alright.
22:43:35 Part froggyman
22:44:39 Quit Jaykay ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091102152451]")
22:46:03Byando I just need to change the static inline bool usb_power_button(void)
22:47:19 Quit tchan ("WeeChat 0.3.1-dev")
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22:53:46 Quit evilnick_B ("Page closed")
22:54:05Byanwhats the Build (A)dvanced do?
22:54:20B4gderByan: try it!
22:54:24AlexPGives you advanced build options
22:54:48Byananything useful?
22:54:53AlexPyes
22:55:01AlexPOtherwise they wouldn't exist
22:55:12AlexPUseful for what you are doing, I don't know
22:59:05Byanlol, I like how there a ton of pages for compiling under windows, but none for linux
22:59:23AlexPbecause generally people need less help
22:59:28AlexPAnd there are plenty
22:59:32Byanoh nevermind
22:59:40AlexPAll of the none specific pages are for linux
22:59:42Byanwell, it wasn't next to the other ones on the list
22:59:57 Quit TopyMobile ("Ex-Chat")
23:00
23:00:00AlexPThe specific windows ones exist as you have to do things like have a VM or cygwin
23:00:14 Join TopyMobile [0] (n=topy@xdsl-78-34-66-147.netcologne.de)
23:05:07 Part hatseflats
23:05:12Byanhrm, cant figure out what packages contain the crosscompiler
23:05:18Byanthis doesn't seem like it should be this hard >_>
23:05:24B4gderByan: you build it
23:05:28AlexPrun tools/rockboxdev.sh
23:05:34AlexPIt sets up everything for you
23:06:22Byanoh
23:06:23Byanthats nice of it
23:06:36ByanROCKBOXDEV: "bzip2" is required for this script to work.
23:06:38Byanpsh >_>
23:06:58AlexPSee http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DocsIndex#For_Developers - e.g. the CrossCompilers page there would have helped you here
23:07:22B4gderis "psh >_>" your shell prompt?
23:07:32Byanno, I typed that
23:07:40AlexPI would horribly murder anything with >_> in it
23:07:42Byanthat'd be funny though
23:14:47 Quit Casainho (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:16:25 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (n=rmenes@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37)
23:20:30 Quit TopyMobile (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:23:41 Join tchan [0] (n=tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan)
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23:34:02 Join Casainho [0] (n=chatzill@87-196-81-204.net.novis.pt)
23:35:22*LambdaCalculus37 wants to push to get the GoGear SA9200 to a working state
23:40:44 Quit JdGordon| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
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23:41:47LambdaCalculus37Still need a cabbiev2 for 128x160 resolution.
23:42:03LambdaCalculus37And a manual. And a better install method. And the rest of the plugins. :)
23:42:16bluebroth3rsounds like some work left :)
23:43:03LambdaCalculus37bluebroth3r: I'm not a very good artist, so I can't do the cabbiev2 theme for it. :)
23:43:35CIA-6New commit by 03nls (r23849): FS #10711 by Martin Ritter fixes handling of the 'First Keypress Enables Backlight Only' setting in simulators
23:44:05*Byan likes his text only theme
23:45:22 Join stripwax [0] (n=Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk)
23:47:09LambdaCalculus37Byan: Regardless, we don't have a version of cabbiev2 for 128x160 screens, and thus need to have one made.
23:47:24 Quit Omlet05^away ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )")
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23:48:01Byantrue enough
23:48:16 Join tchan [0] (n=tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan)
23:52:13n1si wonder if we should make a wiki page with common trouble shooting tips
23:53:05n1slike the "fsck, and if that's ok, do biary search for bad file, then report useful bugreport" thing we repeat over and over for databse initing troubles
23:53:16Torne"try turning the dircache on"
23:53:24stripwax"or off"
23:53:24Torne"are you resetting with menu+select" :)
23:53:37n1sTorne: yes!
23:53:44B4gder"no no it's not a cup holder!"
23:53:46B4gder;-P
23:53:50stripwax;)
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23:53:59dutchierockbox-ified ipod nano 2g not mounting on ubuntu 9.10: dmesg http://pastebin.com/m10964b4, don't see a /dev entry or a listing in lsusb
23:54:32*stripwax can't remember if nano 2g has dual boot
23:54:40stripwaxdoes it work if you reboot to original firmware?
23:54:44n1si guess i know what to do tomorrow if i'm bored then :)
23:55:01*stripwax goes for food - om nom nom
23:55:07 Quit stripwax ("http://miranda-im.org")
23:56:13 Quit n1s ("Lmnar")
23:56:27 Join n1s [0] (n=n1s@rockbox/developer/n1s)
23:56:37dutchieyes, does seem to work on original firmware
23:57:03n1sshould FS #10686 be closed? it's basically "peakmeater is slow"
23:57:20n1sor i guess display updates are slow
23:58:10dutchiebut there seem to be a couple of error messages in dmesg: http://pastebin.com/mab7130e

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