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#rockbox log for 2010-08-11

00:05:21 Join markun [0] (~markun@rockbox/developer/markun)
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00:53:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:08:09JdGordonmorning
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01:25:22mc2739JdGordon: pong
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01:58:05mali want install gentoo on my ipod 30gb like usb-hdd and i dont want lose any data, anybody have had expirience?
01:58:31literalthat's not really a rockbox question
01:59:31literalmore like #ipodlinux
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02:00
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02:26:30JdGordon|mc2739: I was hoping one of last nights channge would fix your crash bug
02:26:39JdGordon|but I misrememebered the bug and it probably wont
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02:32:25mc2739JdGordon|: freddyb posted a patch that seems to fix it
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02:48:24JdGordon|mc2739: oh? where?
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02:53:23***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:14:56mc2739JdGordon|: FS #11524
03:16:23JdGordon|hmm, yeah that masks the issue... I'll try a better one tonight if I get a chance
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08:30:49*bertrik found the memory leak in the vorbis codec
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08:32:38bertrikit's in block.c, where it first tries to allocate the "first_pcm" buffer from iram, which fails, so it then allocaties it from the general malloc pool, but never frees that buffer
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09:42:44ferret_0567has anybody tried to reverse engineer the ipod nano 3g yet?
09:50:10wodzthere are some attempts AFAIK
09:50:38wodzTheSeven is good source of information
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10:15:37 Join u42p [0] (~u42p@d040113.adsl.hansenet.de)
10:17:59u42phi, i ran the http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CodecPerformanceComparison on a sansa clip+ with svn r27770, could someone add the table to the wiki? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=mwj72hPj
10:19:49u42pit looks kinda weird, but thats what the perl script gave me :)
10:20:19u42phm, index.html snuck in there
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10:37:53 Quit Dhraakellian (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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10:46:22CIA-9New commit by 03nls (r27771): Delete useless #ifndef #endif pair.
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10:48:25CIA-9r27771 build result: All green
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10:53:29***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:11:45CIA-9New commit by 03nls (r27772): Mark some local variables with 'static'.
11:13:36CIA-9r27772 build result: All green
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13:26:00preetyboyswaghey people i need a quick answer i gonna take back my mp3 player today , is there any mp3 player that i can buy that support rockbox ?
13:26:09preetyboyswagi mean the sensa ones are they still on sale
13:26:37preetyboyswags ansa sorry
13:29:28u42psansa clip+ is great with rockbox
13:29:35u42pand a 16gb sd card :)
13:29:39u42pi wish i had 32
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13:31:20Stummisomebody with a sansa fuze 2 here? Is there a way to get the songs which are there on default? They seem to be somewhere on the filesystem, but are not visible on pc. (Maybe a special filesystem-hack?)
13:32:00preetyboyswagthx u42p i am from germany and i going look out if i can find some good rockbox mp3 player
13:33:06u42ppreetyboyswag: http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?o=39&fs=sansa+clip&in=
13:33:41u42pi would get 2 or 4 gb and a mini sd card
13:33:59preetyboyswagi try to get sansa fuze today
13:35:46Stummipreetyboyswag, sansa fuze is good. But usb isn't supportet yet
13:37:54preetyboyswag@Stummi i talked to saturn already they wont take my philips back becouse i lose the bong for the rechange -.-
13:38:14preetyboyswagwell done now i need to wait or try to sell it well cya later guys
13:38:47Stummipreetyboyswag, which model exactly is that?
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13:47:18pixelmaStummi: you mean the ones copied over in MTP mode?
13:48:12Stummipixelma, no, there a just some songs on the sanza fuse when you buy it
13:49:25Stummiand i mean this songs
13:49:28pixelmawell, if it is similar to the Sansa c200 then the few songs that came with it were copied over (by Sandisk) in MTP mode...
13:49:32 Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de)
13:50:05Stummihm
13:52:05pixelmaunfortunately I don't know the file structure of the Fuze, but on the c200 I could find them in a SYSTEM subfolder as ".dat" files. I read somewhere that the Fuze OF creates other folders which are hidden differently, maybe you can find something about it in the forums - or if you have access to WMP try to get them off in MTP mode
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14:00
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14:08:26JdGordonkugel: glad to see you've changed your mind. Are you liking the idea of downloading on first install? I'm not sure what to make of your email
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14:20:04kugelJdGordon: well, that's the only way to avoid 20MB apks, isn't it?
14:20:18 Join Temik [0] (~Temik@85.26.164.101)
14:20:31JdGordon20MB is extreme, and on froyo we can install to sdcard, but yes
14:21:08JdGordonany objections then to me cleaning up that patch and getting it commited so we can add android to the build system?
14:21:31 Quit stooo (Client Quit)
14:21:43kugelthere's more needed for this in the build system, isn't it?
14:22:14JdGordonnope. configure and make zip need a tiny bit of fiddling, and build clients need the NDK
14:22:14JdGordonnothing else
14:22:42kugelwhat do you want to build with the build system?
14:22:51JdGordonrockbox.zip
14:23:05JdGordonI mean get it in the usual builds
14:23:06kugelyou can't simply only build rockbox, you need the complete apk
14:23:08JdGordon+with
14:23:31JdGordonif we go with my idea/patch the apk is seperate
14:23:43kugelwhat about the java parts?
14:24:07JdGordonyes, they would be built when needed
14:24:11JdGordonnot automatically thogh
14:24:30JdGordonthey could be, but that would be extra work
14:24:31kugelI think we should build the complete package
14:24:52JdGordonthe complete package is *what* though?
14:25:00kugelthe .apk
14:25:21JdGordonsome images, the java wrapper and enough code to download the rockbox.zip
14:25:29JdGordoni.e 90% static
14:25:58kugelI don't think we're in a state where it's almost completely static yet
14:26:04JdGordonthere is no actual need to build it frequently
14:26:13kugeland even then, it's 100% required for rockbox being functional
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14:27:35JdGordonI understand that. What I'm saying is we start building rockbox.zip now, and we/someone builds a apk which works with the nightly. people who want to test can manually install that untill we decide it is ready for the market
14:27:53JdGordonexactly like how new ports are built almost as soon as it compiles fully anyway
14:28:46 Quit angelwolf71885 (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716])
14:28:57kugelwhy are you pushing this?
14:29:48JdGordonhu?
14:30:31JdGordonbecause I want it to be working from the beginning, and I've mostly finished the patch anyway
14:31:17JdGordonimo the port is on par with other targets now. especially the d2
14:32:39kugelbut it has individual problems like any other port, we don't need to get something out within a day (your mail isn't even a day old)
14:33:13JdGordonI'm not saying anything about building the apk yet
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14:37:32kugelI think we should discuss more about this stuff and get more opinions
14:37:41kugelwe're not in a hurry anyway
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14:47:58kugelI think it could be worthwhile to examine what's needed to make rockbox screen resolution independant (I actually don't think it's that much). that we could ship a single librockbox.so for all devices, and only need to download the themes
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14:53:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:57:20Zagorkugel: research is always good
14:57:30Zagor(meaning: go for it)
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15:20:11JdGordonthe lcd size problem only fixes one issue I have with the apk
15:20:12 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (~LambdaCal@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37)
15:21:29kugelthe other is?
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15:22:24JdGordonnot being able to load any build you want (given that the build is compatable with the java wrapper)
15:22:53kugelbut you can install any apk you want?
15:23:01kugelwhere's the difference?
15:23:21JdGordonbuidling the apk is a massive PITA
15:23:33kugelnot really
15:24:04kugelI find it much more convinient actually to run the apk than to put something on the microsd when using eclipse
15:24:23JdGordonmuch more than just building the zip
15:24:30kugeland once there's a script for doing it in the command line you don't even need eclipse
15:24:47JdGordonyou do need the sdk though
15:25:00JdGordonwhich is more than just the sdk download
15:25:06kugelso?
15:25:26JdGordonso why should we make it harder than needed?
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15:25:56JdGordonwhy the hell shuold I be forced to rebuild java to run my own build when it changes nothing on that wrapper level
15:26:13kugelbecause that's the way it works on android
15:26:19JdGordonthats bloody stupid
15:26:56JdGordonIf I want to try someone elses build I have to install their apk? and if they named it the same I have to uninstall the official apk
15:27:23JdGordonthats just moronic when the answer is so simple
15:27:26kugelexactly like on daps
15:27:32JdGordonnot at all
15:27:50JdGordonyou dont need to install a new bootloader on the ipod to load somoenes build
15:28:00JdGordonyou do need to download their rockbox.zip though
15:28:08kugeland overwrite the official one
15:28:12LambdaCalculus37kugel: Any new updated apks I can try out on my Magic?
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15:29:12JdGordonARG! I shouldnt need to load a new apk to try out someones rockbox.zip (someones could be the svn build here)
15:29:28kugelwhy?
15:29:36JdGordonbecause thats just stupid
15:29:45kugelthat's the only way to make sure the java stuff fits to the rockbox binary
15:29:55JdGordonno it isnt
15:30:20JdGordonwe could easily version the .so
15:31:17kugelLambdaCalculus37: I can make you one if you like
15:31:51JdGordonI'm surprised having to do builds for everyone isnt enough for you to see why the current system is stupid
15:31:56LambdaCalculus37kugel: Sure. :)
15:32:36kugelJdGordon: I'm not proposing to keep the "current system" (there's no current system)
15:32:44LambdaCalculus37JdGordon: But is it worse than, say, building for webOS or iOS?
15:33:11JdGordonLambdaCalculus37: how do you mean?
15:33:17JdGordonkugel: your apks is the current system
15:33:29kugelbut that's no system
15:33:45JdGordonexactly!
15:34:08JdGordonyou're arguing against a system which makes sense and can be implemented *now*
15:34:21*kugel stops discussing with JdGordon for now
15:34:58LinusNfrom a user perspective, the only sane system is to have rockbox in a single apk that is updated via market
15:35:16LambdaCalculus37JdGordon: From what experience I gained from tinkering with iPhone development, Rockbox on the iPhone may be much harder to do.
15:35:32JdGordon*ONLY* if the user wants to stick with builds which we push
15:35:48LinusNJdGordon: yes, a user
15:36:28*LambdaCalculus37 has no idea about how webOS apps are done, and if Rockbox is easy to port to it
15:36:49JdGordonyes fine, but what abuot us who can build our own? you are still forcing us to either use sanctioned apks (either always pushed or from the rockbox site) or build our own apk
15:37:07ZagorJdGordon: devs will always build their own
15:37:11LinusNusers are used to sticking with what the developer pushes at them
15:38:04JdGordonZagor: not if I have to piss around with building the apk and installing that when all I really should need to do is just make && make zip in my android folder like I do with my ipod
15:38:05 Quit markun (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
15:38:24JdGordonI'm not asking for earth shattering ideas... just to be able to load the zip if it is there
15:38:32JdGordon99% of users wont care about this feature
15:38:39JdGordonthe rest will love it
15:38:47Zagorexactly. so we shouldn't force it onto those 99%
15:38:53*kugel is also a bit worried about loading executable code from the sdcard because it's a bit of a security hole
15:38:55JdGordonwe arnt forcing anything
15:39:29kugelLambdaCalculus37: www.alice-dsl.net/simonemartitz/rockbox/Rockbox.apk
15:39:36ZagorJdGordon: what's wrong with make && make apk?
15:39:40JdGordonZagor: my patch sees /sdcard/rockbox/rockbox.zip is newer than the installed version, it asks "An updated rockbo has been detected, install it"?
15:40:56JdGordonZagor: because its then make && make apk && push to the phone && install it && launch instead of make && make zip && cp rockbox.zip /sdcard
15:41:13JdGordonsubtle but big difference
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15:41:24JdGordonand you dont lose the official updates when they are pushed
15:41:28kugelmake && make apk && adb install -r rockbox.apk is dead simple
15:42:12JdGordonI dont want to have to have the sdk installed on my computer
15:42:30JdGordons/I/people/
15:42:42JdGordonyou are over complicatoing the whole thing
15:42:48ZagorI don't think it's reasonable to support android building without the android sdk
15:42:49LinusNJdGordon: if you plan to develop for android, you need the apk
15:42:50JdGordonfor absolutly no benefit
15:43:05LinusNsdk
15:43:31ZagorJdGordon: I'd say it's you who is overcomplicating things, by creating a special workaround for android
15:43:40JdGordonLinusN: the apk for all intents and purposes is 100% static. it is just a simple wrapper which loads the rockbox binary. Why does that need to be reinstalled every time I want to update just the binary (unless of course the wrapper needs updating)
15:44:00Zagorhow much time does it take to build the extra apk stuff anyway?
15:44:19kugela few seconds
15:44:27Zagorso the only issue is "I don
15:44:28kugelon my slow laptop :)
15:44:31Zagor't want to download the sdk"?
15:44:33JdGordonit requires a working sdk + downloaded android system + thats not the point
15:44:40LinusNJdGordon: i still don't get it, why is updating the apk such a pain?
15:44:43ZagorJdGordon: what *is* the point?
15:45:05kugelLinusN: actually, updating the apk is the most convinient way to go
15:45:17LinusNkugel: i would think so too
15:45:32kugelbecause putting stuff on the sdcard means you need to mount it on the pc, copy over, unmount again and remount on the phone
15:45:47kugelwhile updating the apk is a single adb command
15:46:03JdGordonadp push rockbox.zip /sdcard/rockbox
15:46:04JdGordonthats one command also
15:46:15kugelif you got the sdk yes :)
15:46:21kugelbut you don't want that
15:46:22LinusN:-)
15:46:58JdGordonok, so you want the apk to be a full install right?
15:47:03JdGordonthat means it must include the fonts also
15:47:17LambdaCalculus37kugel: Thanks!
15:47:17JdGordonwasted XMB every single download and install
15:47:22JdGordonstupid stupid stupid
15:47:34Zagorxmb?
15:47:54LinusNJdGordon: download via wifi then
15:48:16JdGordon4MB
15:48:27LinusNthis is the android world, people are used to apk's and using wifi for downloading large apps
15:48:49JdGordonthose people wont ever use the feature and wont care either way
15:49:05LinusNexactly
15:49:18JdGordonexactly.. so why all the angst against adding it?
15:49:39JdGordonit wont affect you AT ALL if you dont use it
15:50:11JdGordonand it makes the build system simpler
15:50:18Zagorwhy do we need two install methods? one official and one hack?
15:50:38Zagorjust because you don't like the sdk?
15:51:02JdGordonthis is EXACTLY the same as using RButil to do the initial install and then downloading the svn builds onto your ipod
15:51:18Zagorno. the svn builds will be apk files.
15:51:20kugelrbutil could be the third :)
15:51:25JdGordonwhen we want to force users to update we push a new apk to the market
15:51:55JdGordonotherwise 99% of users will never update, the other 1% will have no problem downloading a zip
15:52:13Zagorwhy would they never update?
15:52:15JdGordonif we have to maually install an apk we lose the market l;inking which means we dont get forced updates
15:52:17kugeland yours is a hack in that regard that the java wrappers might get incompatible at any time, and then you do need a new apk no matter how you turn it
15:52:41JdGordonZagor: not untill a new apk is pushed
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15:52:52JdGordonkugel: thats nonesense. we can EASILY version the wrapper
15:53:02kugelthat doesn't make rockbox run
15:53:09ZagorJdGordon: why would we want users to update to any other version than we push to Market?
15:53:12kugelit just makes it fail with more sanety
15:53:27JdGordonZagor: for the same reason we do svn builds for every target
15:53:39JdGordonkugel: ok, we version the zip
15:53:44ZagorJdGordon: those are for devs
15:53:51kugelthat's already too much hassle IMO
15:53:54JdGordonyou're tyring to bring in a stupid pointless nonesenss arguement for which there are a hundred answer
15:53:59Zagoractually, they are mostly to check the build result
15:54:15JdGordonZagor: so? we should make it harder for us?
15:54:16kugelanother version number to take care of...
15:54:19kugelno, thanks
15:54:37kugelthe apk way is simpler, really
15:54:56ZagorJdGordon: I don't agree that it is any harder to run "make apk-install" or whatever than to mount/copy/unmount/install
15:58:14JdGordonha, no it isnt! go download an apk and try to install it on your phone. it forces you into the market app and then 3 more presses before it gets installed
15:58:28JdGordonthats assuming the key is the same and you dont have to uninstall the old one also
15:58:45Zagor"adb install -r rockbox.apk" does that?
15:59:14JdGordonand if someone uses the svn builds they will just have an apk and no sdk installed
15:59:59Zagorwho do you expect to be shocked and dissappointed that we supply our android builds as apk files?
16:00
16:00:20JdGordonnoone, I'm saying producing apks for this is stupid
16:00:45Zagoryes, you keep saying that. and I keep asking what specifically is so stupid.
16:02:38kugelI think it's sane to require the sdk if anyone wants to make rockbox-android development
16:02:47kugelbtw, the ndk requires the sdk
16:03:37JdGordonno it doesnt
16:04:22kugel"It is designed for use only in conjunction with the Android SDK, so if you have not already installed the latest Android SDK, please do so before downloading the NDK."
16:04:41JdGordonthat doesnt mean it wont compile if it isnt installed
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16:06:40JdGordonand people doing their own builds arnt the only people who use them
16:07:07kugelthey can distribute apks just fine, even on the market
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16:07:54JdGordongreat, so flood the market with multiple unoffical rockbox builds... yay support nightmare
16:08:00skotake a look at the system requirements of the ndk: "A comlete Android SDK installation (with all dependencies) is required."
16:08:34kugelwe don't support unofficial builds anyway
16:08:44JdGordonusers wont know the difference
16:08:45kugeland I don't care if they floot the market or our forums, really
16:08:54kugelthat has never been a problem so far
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16:09:58kugelI think we'll have a lot more support problems if we distribute rockbox.zips that are incompatible with the already installed java wrappers
16:10:16kugeland no, versioning the .so or the .zip is not worth it
16:10:30JdGordonyou are wrong
16:11:04JdGordonversioning the .so takes about 3 lines of c and 5 in java to make the call and display an error if it isnt compatable
16:11:11JdGordonand whent hat happens, oh my, we push a new apk
16:11:29ZagorJdGordon: again, what is the advantage?
16:11:36kugelthat's more complicated than shipping the apk in the first place
16:12:23JdGordonZagor: I've outlined them in here and the email. obviously you dont see them as advantages and you wont be able to be convinced
16:13:45JdGordonone that might have gone unnoticed is that you dont need to rework the build system to make it work with apks
16:14:09kugelexcept we don't need to rework it
16:14:11Zagorwe still want to add apk building to the build system
16:14:36JdGordonnot really
16:14:56Zagorwhy wouldn't we?
16:15:24JdGordonbecause it would only need to be rebuilt when the java changes, and that person can easily rebuild the apk
16:15:34JdGordonno different to how bootloaders are released
16:15:47Zagorumm, our build system does bootloaders
16:15:51JdGordonor we do a release, again, one exra steo in the release checklist
16:16:14JdGordonI meant the uploading part
16:16:51Zagorwell sure, we don't want anyone to upload official rockbox builds to Market
16:17:00kugelthat apk step is needed in the release checklist no matter of your suggestion
16:17:01Zagor*just anyway
16:17:11Zagor*anyone :)
16:17:29ZagorI still want "make apk" to work
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16:18:17JdGordonregular users will only use the release builds (3.6, 3.7, etc). they will be pushed as normal to the market.... my suggestion doesnt change that
16:18:45JdGordonAll im saying is that apk can then load a regular zip so noone else needs to stuff around with apks
16:18:53JdGordonmost users wont know or care about that
16:19:13JdGordonthose that use the svn builds might find that a nice feature
16:19:27kugelthe java wrapper may break at any time. I want not only the problems with incompatibilities when installing but I also want the build system to catch compilation failure if it happens
16:19:27ZagorI would claim most users much rather would grab their daily rockbox build from market than download a zip and fiddle with disk mounting and copying
16:19:30JdGordonthere is no reason to not do that
16:19:57JdGordonkugel: im ignoring that argument, it is stupidly simple to work around
16:20:13JdGordonZagor: And then they would be annoyed every single day with an update request
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16:20:42kugelthey only get the notification once, if they don't chose to update it won't annoy anymore
16:20:49JdGordonwe could do that also
16:20:51ZagorJdGordon: you say annoyed, I say "notified". if they install the daily build rockbox, they expect to get a daily build
16:21:13JdGordonI dont want a notification every day that a new build is ready
16:21:21JdGordonI'm positive I'm not alone there
16:21:30Zagorthen disable the auto notification
16:21:33kugelthen don't install from the market
16:21:37kugelor that
16:21:38Zagoror that
16:21:40kugel:D
16:21:40Zagor:)
16:22:33JdGordonbugger it, im doing my own thing for android then.
16:22:44 Quit bmbl (Quit: Bye!)
16:23:00ZagorJdGordon: I seriously don't understand why this is so important to you
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16:23:14JdGordonyou both havn given a single reason why the idea is bad
16:23:16JdGordonditto to you
16:24:07Zagorthere is a standard method to handle upgrades in android. I propose we use that, to avoid confusing people and adding extra code.
16:24:44JdGordonand the people that care abouit that wont ever know about or use this feature so thats a moot point
16:25:09gevaertsIf you package an application, you need *very* good reasons to bypass the standard methods associated with the package format you use
16:25:23kugelit would probably most confusing if they come to our website and find that we handle current build installations *completely* different
16:25:26evilnick_BIt wouldn't be bypassing them, it's an alternate way to update
16:25:36ZagorJdGordon: so we should add this duplicated upgrade method just because you think it's nicer?
16:25:55kugelbecause he doesn't like to install the sdk
16:26:02JdGordonwe dont add any code to to android apk updates at all so no it wouldnt be duplicate code
16:26:16JdGordonit *is* nicer
16:26:20ZagorJdGordon: duplicated functionality
16:26:30JdGordonand kugel you're a twat when you want to be....
16:26:40gevaertsAlso, the java bits don't change *today*, but as soon as the first native widget gets in...
16:27:08JdGordonZagor: 3 lines of java code. the unzip code is alll there in svn now
16:28:37JdGordongevaerts: the java bits are more likely to change *today* than later.. and I've already said it is simple to version the binary so it cant load incompatable builds
16:29:05 Quit user890104 (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
16:29:08JdGordonand it would make it easier for others to make new apps which hook into the java to provide widgets or whatever if it was seperate
16:29:26*kugel fails to see the advantage of "versioning zips so it won't work if it can't work" over "ship apks that always work without need for a versioning system"
16:29:46JdGordongood for you
16:30:00JdGordonits called having a closed mind
16:30:17gevaertsWhat is? Your attitude?
16:30:53 Nick [J] is now known as DarkJuju (~juju2143@gateway/shell/57o9.org/x-poyqrfqhcpzynvzs)
16:30:59kugelno need to insult now
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16:36:24LambdaCalculus37Now that Rockbox works on touchscreen targets, shouldn't we consider creating a proper touchscreen interface for those targets?
16:36:39ZagorLambdaCalculus37: I think so too
16:36:50Zagorbut it's a pretty big task
16:36:57kugelI think a lot of people have considered it :)
16:37:00LambdaCalculus37Zagor: Indeed.
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16:38:12LambdaCalculus37Zagor: The UI we have now is great for non-touchscreen targets, but an icon-based UI for my Android phone would be dandy.
16:38:28Zagorstart drawing :)
16:38:57*LambdaCalculus37 brings forth the grimoire :)
16:39:44LambdaCalculus37I can make a very crude mockup.
16:40:04kugelamiconn: rockbox will function without sdcard, but it won't be able to save settings etc
16:40:20amiconnWhy is that?
16:40:22kugelthe alternative is having no access to config.cfg
16:40:32amiconnDo android devices not have some fat(32) formatted internal storage?
16:40:34kugel(no user access)
16:40:47kugelno
16:40:59amiconnHow does rockbox access music stored internally?
16:41:27kugelthey have yaffs or something for internal storage, and apps have almost no access to it (if not rooted anyway)
16:41:53kugelthere's only a little folder in your apps dir which you cannot reach with a file browser or when connected to the pc
16:42:24kugelamiconn: with a file browser, if apps have permissions to open that folder
16:42:55amiconnHmm, raa uses native file system access, correct?
16:42:58amiconn+a
16:43:05kugelyes
16:43:15*amiconn thinks raaa on n900 will be easier
16:43:44kugelit will be the same as the sdl app I guess, which has similar "problems"
16:43:53kugelbut there you have $HOME, not /sdcard
16:45:32LinusNi think much of the current rockbox UI has to go, in favor of standard android menus
16:46:07ZagorLinusN: are there really "standard android menus"? it seems to me most apps have different menus
16:46:47Zagoror is the homescreen settings menu the native model?
16:47:01LinusNi believe so
16:47:21sko there is a design guideline at developer.android.com
16:47:43LinusNi mean, i would use rockbox on android mostly for the nice playback features
16:48:10Zagorthose menus look like they match our needs pretty well
16:48:39Zagorbut I assume that means more mixed native/java code?
16:48:49LinusNi'm sure
16:48:59LambdaCalculus37Probably so.
16:49:21skohere it is: http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/ui_guidelines/index.html
16:49:26LinusNalso, most of the plugins are pretty useless as well
16:50:10kugel1 reason RaaA has no plugins yet :)
16:50:15LinusN:-)
16:50:47LinusNraaa is more of a Media Player, so most of the "operating system" stuff is simply not needed
16:51:12skowell... a native ui would solve the "different screen sizes"-problem
16:51:48rasherexcept for the wps
16:51:55skoright
16:52:36kugelI actually think trying to replace rockbox widgets with native ones is a neverending job
16:53:18kugelIt would probably be more easier to fork out the playback stuff and build a dedicated app around it
16:53:31LinusNmy approach would be to rip out the core stuff (playback, dsp, codecs and wps) and reimplement the gui
16:53:33***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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16:53:40LinusNkugel: :-)
16:53:45Zagorit's pretty much unavoidable since they code would diverge so much anyway
16:54:26rasherMore librockbox?
16:54:33kugeland I say fork because I personally don't really want to miss the theming possibilities, and I find the current touchscreen navigation works well enough
16:55:19kugel(absoute mode enabled of course)
16:55:20Zagorrasher: sure sounds like it
16:56:12kugelLinusN: I don't think you could keep the wps :(
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16:56:34LinusNkugel: perhaps not in its current form
16:57:08Zagorwhy not? wps files are already resolution specific
16:57:53kugelI mean the skin engine and its drawing mainly, not the .wps files
16:58:28TheSevenwell, audio-related plugins (like fft) would actually make sense even on raaa
16:58:32Zagorstill, the wps is just a canvas that we draw to. why wouldn't that work on android?
16:59:05Zagornot the non-wps theming, of course
16:59:35kugelthe plan was to reimplement the ui in java, wasn't it? :)
16:59:40skohmm... as its possible to port rb to different platforms through raaa a separation of logic and ui would be useful? (don't know if its possible at all)
17:00
17:00:04kugelbut it may be possible, you're right
17:00:36Zagorsko: separation of logic and ui might be complex. separation of ui and playback is more feasible.
17:02:07 Part LinusN
17:04:25kugelZagor: I think that once you see it nice works when you have a proper cabbie port, then you'll realize that it's not worth the effort :)
17:05:34kugelI already like rockbox more because I have more controls from the wps compared to the intergrated media player, allowing me to change songs or playback related settings more quickly
17:06:06Zagorkugel: of course, but that doesn't go away with a proper touchscreen ui
17:06:39kugeldepends on what you mean with proper touchscreen ui
17:06:50kugelif it means native widgets I'm not so sure
17:07:48Zagorwell, having to memorize which unmarked area of the screen does what is a pretty crappy user interface
17:08:03kugelthat's what I mean with proper cabbie port
17:08:28kugelthe 320x480 one has pretty obvious touch regions which you can touch directly (no grid mode9
17:08:29Zagorwell the problem is everywhere, not just in the wps
17:09:33 Part Zagor
17:09:50kugelI'd agree that grid mode is crappy, but the absolute point mode works well most of the time
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17:15:48*kugel wonders if people have seen the screen shots I posted (http://imagebin.org/108278 http://imagebin.org/108279 and http://imagebin.org/108280)
17:17:37Stummicould it be, that the most of the rockbox-community are germans? *g*
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17:23:53wodzgevaerts: ping
17:24:07wodzpamaury: ping
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17:26:46saratoga_kugel: for what its worth, i think changing the menus to use icons but keeping the WPS would be pretty slick
17:26:57pamaurywodz: yes,, I'm sorry for the mrobe, I forgot it at home :( I'm the only one to blame
17:27:04saratoga_not sure if theres enough preprocessor magic on earth to make that work though
17:27:24wodzpamaury: ok
17:27:35saratoga_maybe not icons, but larger GUI elements anyway for easier clicking
17:27:55kugelpick a larger font :)
17:28:45 Quit z35 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
17:29:25pamaurywodz: I'm quite under pressure this week because this is the end of my internship but I promise I'll test it tonight, I've been rude by forgetting this
17:30:04wodzpamaury: ok, I'll post updated version of the patch to the tracker soon.
17:30:18pamauryok, just poke so I download it before going offline
17:34:12kugelperhaps the yesno screen could be relatively easy to do with a native dialog
17:34:13 Quit markun (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:34:35kugelbut I'm unsure if it's a good idea to use native widgets only partly
17:34:53kugelI think they'll look like another app pops them up, not rockbox
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17:42:50gevaertswodz: pong
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17:46:08*rasher would preferably see native menus and rockbox wps
17:55:12saratoga_bertrik: were you going to make vorbis flush the malloc buffer on track change?
17:55:31saratoga_IMO thats worth doing as well as fixing that leak
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18:00
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18:05:58Stephen___S_a_i_n_t: ping
18:10:14 Quit petur (Quit: Page closed)
18:12:13Stephen___I'm abotu to update customwps wiki page wondering if anyone could have a glance over to check for mistakes? I know S_a_i_n_t had this on his todo. I had a few mins so thought i'd save him some trouble.
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18:13:19bertriksaratoga, I think I found out where the memory leak in the vorbis codec occurred
18:13:34pixelmaStephen___: do you have a pastebin or so?
18:14:03Stephen___I have the editor still open I could copy to pastebin ?
18:14:09pixelmaor maybe just do the changes and people can look at it
18:14:27bertriksaratoga, an attempt was made to allocate a PCM buffer from IRAM, when that fails, it is allocated with ogg_malloc (and never freed)
18:14:34Stephen___ok cool. I'll submit it now.
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18:15:49bertrikit looks like it only happens with the specific 48 kbps ogg vorbis file and not with my own vorbis files (-q5, around 150 kbps)
18:16:32bertrikReinitialising the ogg_malloc system for every file seems to fix it
18:17:22 Join [Saint] [0] (S_a_i_n_t@203.184.0.237)
18:17:40bertrikI think it's not so nice that the player just hangs with a data abort when running out of memory, IMO a panic indicating the cause would be nicer
18:18:54Stephen___Saint the very person
18:18:57 Quit S_a_i_n_t (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
18:24:15pixelmaStephen___: looks ok as far as I can see. The only thing I'd add (but could do so myself) is the %( and %) in the "other tag" section
18:24:31pixelmaI wonder if a comma needs escaping too now?
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18:25:40Stephen___Commas do need escping, what part is that ? do you want me to change the other tag section whilee I'm at it ?
18:26:24Stephen___I was a bit unsure about the playlist viewer part, teh syntax of it now
18:28:28pixelmaI don't know that part well, can't help you there
18:29:05Stephen___i'll wait till S_a_i_n_t or JDGordon is around and pester them.
18:30:15Stephen___anyway back to work for now, thanks for the help.
18:30:19pixelmaI guess the example.wps is outdated now. Should it be kept? Updated?
18:30:21 Quit Stephen___ (Quit: CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06))
18:30:28 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@chello087206240131.chello.pl)
18:30:41wodzgevaerts: Thanks for testing. Gigabeat F seem to have something called HARDWARE_BEEP - does it work with patch?
18:30:51*kugel has test_fps running with a quick hack
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18:35:39wodzAbout jdG idea of loadable rockbox.zip - this is serious security flaw. Even if user IS asked
18:37:26wodzpamaury: I've uploaded new version of the patch to the FS #11531
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18:43:09pamauryok
18:45:04gevaertswodz: the new patch?
18:45:55wodzgevaerts: I've uploaded slightly changed version but I was asking You about v01
18:46:04gevaertsHow would I know?
18:46:14gevaertsWhat does this HARDWARE_BEEP thing do?
18:46:38wodzI was thinking that You know as gigabeat f user :-)
18:46:45wodzI'll check in manual
18:52:27wodzgevaerts: hmm it looks like it disables rockbox's keyclick framework
18:53:02wodzdoes gigabeat f have keyclick?
18:53:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:54:01 Quit hebz0rl (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
18:54:16*gevaerts never used keyclick
18:55:14gevaertswodz: if I enable keyclick with your patch, I hear clicks when I press keys. Is that what you need to know?
18:56:01kugelok, we currently have 271fps
18:56:02wodzhmm looks like this is long forgotten ifdef
18:56:23kugelbut only because they happen async. synchronizing it brings it down to 64fps
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18:59:09kugelwodz: I thought so too (re security flaw). I could put a librockbox.so which only implements Java_org_rockbox_RockboxService_main(), then the phone would be yours (well, still limited to native code but still)
19:00
19:00:23kugelthe phone would be mine of course :)
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19:02:52wodzI read somewhere about some worm targeting android presenting itself as a media player so this is not so unlikely scenario to use librockbox.so/zip to attack phone
19:03:33 Quit T44 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
19:03:47kugelyou cannot do that with native code IIUC
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19:04:27kugellike sending expensive sms
19:04:50wodzI see but DoS is possible
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19:14:41wodzgevaerts: It looks like one of the timer can be used to generate beeps (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ToshibaGigabeatFXPortPins) but I don't see this to be used in rb
19:20:27wodzgevaerts: aaa I see it IS used. If You can hear keyclicks that mens everything is ok
19:22:02bertrikThis is the fix I'm planning to commit for the vorbis malloc problem: http://pastebin.ca/1915233 it basically causes the ogg_malloc system to be reinitialised for each file when playing multiple vorbis in sequence (as opposed to resuming from the previous state earlier)
19:24:18wodzbertrik: what about the leak You have revealed?
19:24:44bertrikthat leak is worked around with this patch
19:25:05wodzbut isn't it better to fix the leak?
19:27:16kugelbertrik: don't feel like freeing the leak?
19:27:21bertrikthat's quite complicated, we have basically two allocators for ogg, a fancy TLSF one for main DRAM and a completely naive (without a free) one for IRAM
19:28:27bertrikThe leak occurs when ogg tries to malloc from IRAM using the naive allocator and finds it has no memory, it then does a malloc from main DRAM, this malloc is never freed.
19:28:58bertrikkugel, there's a hack in place now that I rather don't touch
19:29:15kugelso I guess it should be reinitialized anyway, to reclaim iram
19:31:33gevaertsI think it should be reinitialised, even if the other issues are fixed
19:31:37kugelbut I wonder if it's a good idea to have a sort-of-heap in iram
19:31:49gevaertsIt costs nearly nothing, and it's a good safeguard against other bugs
19:32:26wodzreinitialization is ok but why leave known leak? If some day someone implement more sophisticated allocator for iram and removes reinitialization the issue will popup again
19:32:49bertrikas far as I can see, the naive IRAM allocator is already re-initialised for every file, the DRAM allocator is not yet
19:36:05wodzbertrik: I would still add free() (if you know where leak is). Reinitialization maybe still good idea to prevent fragmentation and friends
19:38:11bertrikwodz, the problem is that there is not really a point in the code where deinitialisation is done already (as far as I can see), so I can't just add a "missing free".
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19:39:08BuckwheatCould someone link me to the svn for rockbox
19:40:30Buckwheatnevermind
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19:46:55bertrikwow, we have only 20.5 kB IRAM available as IRAM for codecs !?
19:47:02bertrik(on the clipv1)
19:47:26kugelbertrik: we should have 0 iram available
19:47:46kugelthe entire codec buffer is in iram, 32k resevered for the core
19:48:49 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (~LambdaCal@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37)
19:50:26bertrikkugel, the IRAM allocator uses static unsigned char iram_buff[IRAM_IBSS_SIZE] IBSS_ATTR __attribute__ ((aligned (16))); as its pool (from oggmalloc.c)
19:50:51bertrikthe 20.5 kB is what I got from the clipv1 simulator by the way, not sure if this is representative for the target
19:50:55kugelconfig.h does #undef IBSS_ATTR IIRC
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20:07:26amiconnbertrik: Regarding running out of ram mid-playback - wouldn't it be better to just fail instead of panic?
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20:40:54bertrikamiconn, it ran out of ram just after loading the next ogg vorbis file in a sequence. Maybe just bailing out instead of panicing is better indeed (anything else than crashing really)
20:43:35bertrikhm, there already seems to be something in place to handle out-of-memory, doing a longjmp
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20:48:50bertrikI think I'll put my basic patch on the tracker and let someone with longjmp/setjmp knowledge look at it
20:49:18*bertrik wonders if this longjmp/setjmp stuff in vorbis was ever tested
20:49:25LearSure it was.
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20:51:06LearBut that was some time ago (before TLSF and the "dynamic" IRAM changes too, I think).
20:52:57kugelLear: I seem to remember that you implemented the longjmp to recover (skip track) from a bad malloc
20:53:34kugelbut I don't know whether it was the old malloc or tlsf-malloc
20:53:35***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:55:16LearYep (with "bad" being "too big"). For the old malloc. I did tlsf later.
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21:01:40Ludo6431hello
21:01:52CIA-9New commit by 03learman (r27773): Fix FS #11175. playlist_peek() wasn't thread safe (due to a static filename buffer), so frequent calls from the main thread would cause the audio ...
21:04:00CIA-9r27773 build result: All green
21:05:21LambdaCalculus37kugel: Have you seen this? http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/screen_support.html#attrs
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21:10:42kugelLambdaCalculus37: yes, error 404 is not new to me
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21:11:02kugelgevaerts: did you sent in my evaluation already?
21:11:15kugel(if there is one for you?)
21:12:11gevaertskugel: not yet. As far as I know, that starts next Monday
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21:12:46kugelI just wanted to say that I want still to write 2 wiki pages, one about the android port specifically and one about porting RaaA in general (what's needed at minimum, what rockbox expects, etc)
21:12:59gevaertsGood idea
21:13:19gevaertsThat also fits nicely into the gsoc soft pencils down time
21:13:32skokugel: try this link: http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/screens_support.html#attrs
21:13:36kugeloh yes, final evaluations are *from* august 16, I read until
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21:42:15*gevaerts congratulates Lear for fixing the bug with the weirdest effect of the last year
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21:46:43cdkugel: I tried to use your latest apk on Galaxy S but could not start music. Error accessing playlist control file! Do you have a hint for me?
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21:51:54wodzCan we close FS #7138? I think this has been commited long ago
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22:40:29Kiddyshaqhi?
22:43:11pixelmawelcome. If you have a Rockbox related question just ask
22:44:52KiddyshaqSorry if you already know this but I wonder if there is a Zune port
22:47:31Bagderthere is none
22:47:41Bagderyou can start it!
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22:49:21Kiddyshaqwhat about ipod nano 2g?
22:50:55BagderI believe rockbox works rather good on it
22:51:06Bagderhttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IPodNano2GPort
22:51:11Bagder(as linked from the front page)
22:53:37***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:56:18Kiddyshaqwhat does "Stkov nand" mean?
23:00
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23:02:36KiddyshaqBye ;)
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23:11:42bertrikI've put my analysis of the ogg vorbis malloc problem on clip v1 on the tracker: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11533
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23:52:41saratogabertrik: in the meantime can you change the codec to reinit the malloc buffer on track change?
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23:57:06stripwaxhrm, the tlsf buffer should be getting freed.
23:57:22stripwax[and/or only being alloc'd once]
23:58:00stripwaxI seem to recall n1s had a patch for simplifying the pcm buffer alloc (which I still never got a chance to take a look at) but wondering if it addresses some of this

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