| 00:01:27 | n1s | that's the one i meant, the animated part is a slightly different shade of gray from the background but it is indeed hard to see |
| 00:03:02 | Luca_S | not a big deal however, that's just ui candy, and the fuze recharges quite quickly :) |
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| 00:09:00 | S_a_i_n_t | Still, it shouldn;t be soo hard to see that one needs to question if they're actually seeing it or not. |
| 00:09:14 | S_a_i_n_t | It indeed wasn;t what I thought it was, but I'll still look at it. |
| 00:09:28 | S_a_i_n_t | If the colours need to be more defined, then, they should be. |
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| 00:11:55 | Luca_S | gotta go now, goodnight |
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| 00:12:21 | * | alexbobP is glad he uses boxamp theme |
| 00:12:50 | alexbobP | the best thing about the boxamp theme is I can tell people I'm running winamp on my mp3 player and they will believe me just by seeing it |
| 00:12:56 | alexbobP | most people don't do a whole lot of critical thinking |
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| 01:23:19 | JdGordon| | anyone awake who uses the playlist catalog? |
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| 01:27:43 | JdGordon| | meh, ok, apparently one of the reasons the catalog doesnt use the file browser is because it puts the most recent playlist at the top of the list. I wonder if it would be acceptable to add a new catalog menu item for "Add to: <last m3u filename>" so the browser doesnt need to display it |
| 01:28:11 | JdGordon| | that could even cut 2 key presses of that action |
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| 05:26:57 | S_a_i_n_t | Has the new Nano2G bootloader been added to RBUtil? |
| 05:27:56 | S_a_i_n_t | I've installed the latest build, but I can't boot the OF using menu so I'm guessing RBUtil is installing an older bootloader |
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| 09:23:06 | JdGordon | would anyone find it too strange if a menu item (in the catalog viewer) had the text "Add to: <last playlist filename>" and spoke "Add to last playlist" (i.e the text had the actual filename, the voice didnt) |
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| 10:57:22 | kugel | I updated my test codec stats with ARMv6 results: http://www.alice-dsl.net/simonemartitz/rockbox/test_codec_stats.pdf |
| 10:59:08 | kugel | the speed up from building for ARMv6 is rather marginal; except for ape with asm enabled |
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| 11:09:42 | kugel | however, in asm enabled builds a armv5 one is sometimes even faster than armv6, I assume test_codec on a hosted environment isn't entirely accurate (due to task switching?) |
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| 15:51:00 | S_a_i_n_t | Hmmm, I've tried it twice now...and it seems that rockboxdev.sh chokes building the arm-elf-eabi toolchain on CygWin with line 198 "rm -rf $builddir", it produces the error "rm: cannot remove `/tmp/rbdev-build/build-binutils': Device or resource busy" |
| 15:51:26 | S_a_i_n_t | Another user saw this the other day also, is it possible to cod ethis to skip on CygWin machines? |
| 15:51:35 | S_a_i_n_t | *code |
| 15:52:55 | n1s | probably :) |
| 15:53:23 | Torne | alternatively you could fix the actual problem? :) |
| 15:53:24 | S_a_i_n_t | errr....s/ist it possible/will it happen/ ;) |
| 15:53:46 | S_a_i_n_t | well, I have no idea of the actual problem. |
| 15:53:49 | Torne | something is presumably still running with its cwd inside there, or similar |
| 15:53:57 | Torne | process explorer's handle search will tell you |
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| 15:54:31 | S_a_i_n_t | as soon as it errors, it quits...so I can't tell to much from it. |
| 15:54:59 | S_a_i_n_t | it's just cleanup BS anyway, no reason why it can't be left there to be cleaned up manually. |
| 15:55:22 | Torne | that's questionable logic |
| 15:55:35 | Torne | if the build and install is really done then nothing should have any files open in there any more |
| 15:55:42 | Torne | so maybe something *else* has gone wrong |
| 15:55:55 | Torne | solving the real problem is better |
| 15:55:56 | S_a_i_n_t | But, it's not *done* |
| 15:56:01 | S_a_i_n_t | it's pretty far from the end. |
| 15:56:11 | Torne | the build and install must be done if it's deleting the build directory |
| 15:56:13 | S_a_i_n_t | it's some intermediary cleanup. |
| 15:56:21 | S_a_i_n_t | Nope. |
| 15:56:26 | S_a_i_n_t | it's far, far from done. |
| 15:56:34 | Torne | that doesn't make any sense |
| 15:56:36 | S_a_i_n_t | (at that stage) |
| 15:56:57 | S_a_i_n_t | which is possibly why its failing. |
| 15:57:01 | Torne | It *is* done |
| 15:57:09 | Torne | if you mean the last line in build() |
| 15:57:17 | Torne | it has built and installed the tool it was asked to build and install. |
| 15:57:25 | Torne | so then it deletes the build directory for that tool |
| 15:57:36 | Torne | so, there is no legitimate reason for anything to be holding that directory open |
| 15:57:42 | Torne | which means something has already gone wrong :) |
| 15:57:59 | S_a_i_n_t | but, commenting out that line |
| 15:58:02 | S_a_i_n_t | it completes. |
| 15:58:07 | Torne | that doesn't mean it did it properly |
| 15:58:11 | S_a_i_n_t | there's still a LOT of shit to build after that. |
| 15:58:15 | S_a_i_n_t | (apparently) |
| 15:58:19 | Torne | it's *probably* fine, but you can't know that for sure |
| 15:58:29 | S_a_i_n_t | the script continues for AGES after that if commented. |
| 15:58:30 | Torne | each part of the toolchain is a totally seperate package |
| 15:58:41 | Torne | each one is downloaded, unpacked, built, installed, and then the build directory completed |
| 15:58:50 | Torne | the fact that the script isn't done then is not a surprise |
| 15:58:53 | Torne | binutils is the first thing to be installed |
| 15:59:00 | Torne | but it *is* done installing binutils |
| 15:59:07 | Torne | so it's perfectly reasonable for it to delete the directory it built binutils in |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:17 | Torne | rockboxdev.sh is a script that builds two seperate things, binutils and gcc. |
| 16:00:28 | S_a_i_n_t | but then it goes on to create the same dir again. |
| 16:00:32 | Torne | no it doesn't. |
| 16:00:37 | S_a_i_n_t | to build more stuff in it. |
| 16:00:41 | Torne | if it did, that would be broken |
| 16:00:41 | amiconn | S_a_i_n_t: It worked fine for me. Are you running rockboxdev.sh with administrative permissions? |
| 16:00:46 | S_a_i_n_t | No reason to remove it at that stage really. |
| 16:00:54 | S_a_i_n_t | amiconn: yes. |
| 16:01:15 | Torne | it removes build-binutils |
| 16:01:18 | Torne | and creates build-gcc instead |
| 16:02:07 | S_a_i_n_t | amiconn: Hillshum(sp?) had exactly the same error approximately 2 days ago |
| 16:02:33 | S_a_i_n_t | if I comment line 198, it completes. |
| 16:02:45 | S_a_i_n_t | if not it will always fail at that point. |
| 16:03:50 | | Join noamsml_ [0] (~noamsml@adsl-75-45-238-177.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:06:17 | | Quit noamsml (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 16:08:09 | | Quit noamsml_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 16:08:50 | | Join noamsml [0] (~noamsml@adsl-75-45-243-168.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:16:33 | Torne | S_a_i_n_t: anyway, the problem is that it's the build script itself holding the directory open :) |
| 16:16:53 | S_a_i_n_t | Aha....so? |
| 16:17:03 | Torne | so it should leave the directory first before it tries to delete it :) |
| 16:17:16 | S_a_i_n_t | I've just been commenting it out, but I assume there's a better fix than that ;) |
| 16:17:32 | Torne | yes |
| 16:17:36 | Torne | gimme a sec |
| 16:17:45 | S_a_i_n_t | times up! |
| 16:18:48 | Torne | hush you |
| 16:19:25 | Torne | okay i can't fix it right now, my dsl has gone down at home |
| 16:19:45 | S_a_i_n_t | No worries. |
| 16:20:03 | S_a_i_n_t | Should I bother adding a bug report, or do you think you'll remember about it? |
| 16:21:13 | Torne | i'll do it later, it's ok |
| 16:21:44 | Torne | zagor slightly changed the order it does stuff when he refactored out some of the duplicated code in r26600 |
| 16:21:57 | Torne | on unix it's not a problem to delete your current working directory : |
| 16:21:59 | S_a_i_n_t | Sweet as. And, thanks. It's good to know I'm not going insane doing something wrong, and it is indeed borked ;) |
| 16:22:04 | Torne | it just doesn't actually go away until you leave |
| 16:22:08 | Torne | on windows it fails |
| 16:22:19 | S_a_i_n_t | Yeah, coll. |
| 16:22:25 | S_a_i_n_t | Thanks for taking a look at it. |
| 16:22:27 | | Join kugel [0] (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 16:22:28 | Torne | right |
| 16:22:28 | S_a_i_n_t | *cool |
| 16:23:25 | Torne | the reason to remove it at that stage is just to save disk space, really |
| 16:23:52 | Torne | which is a reasonable thing to do, it just needs to cd to a different directory first |
| 16:32:58 | n1s | whatever happened to the freeze/release decision? |
| 16:34:39 | | Part blithe |
| 16:34:46 | | Quit ranma (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 16:38:52 | | Join bmbl [0] (~Miranda@unaffiliated/bmbl) |
| 16:39:28 | | Join kazaik [0] (~kazaik@pool-71-166-29-66.bltmmd.east.verizon.net) |
| 16:45:06 | amiconn | Torne: That explains it. I certainly ran that script before r26600 |
| 16:46:00 | | Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 16:47:12 | | Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 16:51:11 | | Join gc5 [0] (~4141dfdd@giant.haxx.se) |
| 16:56:54 | | Join toffe82 [0] (~chatzilla@maf.wirelesstcp.net) |
| 17:00 |
| 17:01:31 | gc5 | a app shoulde made for iphone ipod ipad |
| 17:02:01 | CIA-7 | New commit by nls (r28283): Pitch detector: do not break profiling builds. |
| 17:02:48 | gc5 | what? |
| 17:04:02 | CIA-7 | r28283 build result: All green |
| 17:04:42 | | Part Zagor |
| 17:04:54 | Torne | CIA is a bot announcing changes to the code, it's not replying to you :) |
| 17:05:04 | Torne | if you want an iphone app, feel free to write one :) |
| 17:05:22 | | Quit teru (Quit: Quit) |
| 17:06:23 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 17:07:04 | gc5 | i dont have a mac so iant not yet anyways |
| 17:08:37 | * | n1s remembers something |
| 17:09:33 | n1s | profiling doesn't work with test_codec |
| 17:10:54 | n1s | it does set up the function pointers in the api, so that *should* work...' |
| 17:11:53 | | Join domonoky [0] (~Domonoky@rockbox/developer/domonoky) |
| 17:14:18 | n1s | regular playback is slower than realtime though so no real gain from test_codec |
| 17:16:02 | | Join Dreamxtreme [0] (~Dre@92.30.207.138) |
| 17:16:22 | gc5 | my ipod 5 's baclight exploded while ising rockbox |
| 17:17:05 | gc5 | it wasent rockboxes fault some idiot repaired it and used a contact explosive as glue |
| 17:19:53 | | Join _s1gma [0] (~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131) |
| 17:22:48 | S_a_i_n_t | gc5: This channel is reserved for reality only. ;) |
| 17:25:14 | gc5 | yes i was lying. the reality is the idiot (me) riped the bcklight out when i was replacing the screen :( now it is verry dark |
| 17:26:15 | S_a_i_n_t | And besides, not having a macintosh doesn;t stop you from porting RaaA to the iPhone/Pad |
| 17:27:38 | gc5 | RaaA ?? what is RaaA |
| 17:27:54 | S_a_i_n_t | Rockbox as an Application. |
| 17:28:03 | S_a_i_n_t | essentially what you are talking about. |
| 17:29:04 | gc5 | oh does it allready exist as a iphone app |
| 17:29:28 | | Quit gc5 (Quit: CGI:IRC) |
| 17:29:32 | gevaerts | no |
| 17:29:33 | S_a_i_n_t | No, this is why I said not having a mac doesn;t stop you from porting it ;) |
| 17:30:45 | | Join gc5 [0] (~4141dfdd@giant.haxx.se) |
| 17:31:12 | S_a_i_n_t | gc5: No, there is not a port for iPhone...only Android. |
| 17:32:14 | gc5 | darn i have a ipod touch i want to be able to use rockbox on it becaus it was awsone in my ipod 5 |
| 17:32:17 | | Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
| 17:32:59 | S_a_i_n_t | Well, learn to code and write the port for RaaA to iPod touch then ;) |
| 17:33:14 | S_a_i_n_t | It won't code itself. |
| 17:33:45 | gc5 | how axn i make apps for a non jailbroken ipod with windows |
| 17:34:13 | S_a_i_n_t | No idea, and that is completely offtopic here |
| 17:34:49 | gc5 | oops sorry |
| 17:35:04 | krazykit | gc5, it's been discussed in here that it may be a violation of the GPL (rockbox's license) to distrube rockbox in the iphone app store (if it were even able to be approved) |
| 17:35:17 | gc5 | i see |
| 17:35:28 | gc5 | so maby cidea |
| 17:36:11 | krazykit | but before that could even happen, someone with programming experience would have to port RaaA to the iOS platform, which would include lots of programming and time |
| 17:37:09 | n1s | krazykit: it won't be accepted into the app store |
| 17:37:37 | gc5 | its not hapening anytime soon |
| 17:37:48 | gc5 | maby never |
| 17:37:50 | krazykit | n1s, that's why i said "if it were" :) |
| 17:38:04 | krazykit | gc5, it's not happening as long as nobody is working on it |
| 17:39:38 | gc5 | well i cant i mean i cant even program in qbasic |
| 17:42:53 | | Quit krazykit (Quit: campus) |
| 17:47:26 | | Quit gc5 (Quit: CGI:IRC) |
| 17:55:22 | n1s | hmm, render_line_unrolled takes a whooping 13% of the total ticks in 128k decoding of vorbis on cf, of course profiling disables inlining, should probably test with mild inlining too |
| 18:00 |
| 18:03:54 | Torne | Did we come to a decision about what to do with the USB device ID changing thing? |
| 18:04:06 | Torne | the issue peopl ehave with devices that expect to read the itunesdb over USB when they notice the device is an ipod |
| 18:06:10 | S_a_i_n_t | Hmmmm? Oh, like iTunes opening with "Open iTunes when this iPod is detected" setting turned on, etc? |
| 18:06:20 | Torne | well more for things like car head units and hifis |
| 18:06:31 | Torne | because on those you can't jus tuse a different media player program that's not dumb |
| 18:06:32 | S_a_i_n_t | Oh, right. |
| 18:06:43 | S_a_i_n_t | true. |
| 18:06:57 | Torne | they see the apple device IDs and they expect to be able to talk that weird SCSI-transported protocol where they can read the iTunesDB |
| 18:07:02 | Torne | which we don't implement :) |
| 18:07:14 | Torne | because they assume that on an apple device they won't be able to find any of the files otherwise. |
| 18:07:20 | Torne | and fail to give you the optoin of just browsing hte filesystem |
| 18:07:25 | S_a_i_n_t | So, what is the solution? |
| 18:07:44 | Torne | the "solution" for individual users is to compile a build that uses a different USB VID/PID |
| 18:07:54 | Torne | so the head unit doesn't recognise it as an ipod, and just mounts it as a usb flash drive |
| 18:08:04 | Torne | since they do normalyl support non-ipod usb devices as well :) |
| 18:08:21 | S_a_i_n_t | Could there be a user setting for this on the DAP?? |
| 18:08:23 | Torne | but last time this was discussed people were reluctant to actually put the code to do that into the build |
| 18:08:26 | S_a_i_n_t | -? |
| 18:08:26 | Torne | Well, there could be, yes |
| 18:08:37 | Torne | but the problem is that, well, you aren't supposed to use VIDs/PIDs that don't belong to you :) |
| 18:08:54 | Torne | and also, some OSes use those to identify things like what drive letter to mount as, so being able to change them can result in confusing behaviour to users |
| 18:08:55 | S_a_i_n_t | Ah. |
| 18:09:10 | Torne | we currently assume that nobody cares if we reuse the VID/PID that the device's OF uses |
| 18:09:16 | Torne | since it is the same device, even if it's not hte same softrware :) |
| 18:09:44 | Torne | but that's not so good in this case because our capabilities are not hte same as the device's normal software. |
| 18:10:11 | S_a_i_n_t | How strict is the "aren't supposed to"? ;) |
| 18:10:27 | Torne | well i don't know that the USB-IF can really *do* anything to us :) |
| 18:10:44 | Torne | the usual way they enforce their rules is you are only allowed to use the USB trademarks (like the logo) if you follow their rules ;) |
| 18:10:49 | S_a_i_n_t | \o/ |
| 18:11:07 | Torne | we certainly can't afford to pay to join the USB-IF or to get a PID as an independant, costs loads |
| 18:11:37 | Torne | letting the user set it to any value kinda absolves us of responsibility but it's not very helpful to the people who actually need the feature |
| 18:11:55 | Torne | since telling them "oh just pick some random number" is not very helpful, what if that clashes with something one of their devices/OSes recognises already? |
| 18:12:21 | | Quit S00row (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 18:12:23 | Torne | (you can kinda avoid that by using the VID/PID of a *different* rockbox device that isn't an ipod.. ;) |
| 18:14:18 | | Join S00row [0] (~Administr@27-33-98-164.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 18:14:25 | alexbobP | well rockbox doesn't really need to use the usb logo anyways :P |
| 18:14:38 | alexbobP | might as well just jack the id from some other player |
| 18:17:20 | Torne | alexbobP: right, that's the point; it's fine for an individual user to build their own build that does that |
| 18:17:35 | Torne | but it's not necessarily a good idea to just make that a setting, is the thing |
| 18:17:55 | Torne | the potential for weird/bad stuff to happen is certainly present... |
| 18:18:01 | alexbobP | Torne: if we already know that the current state of affairs does the Wrong Thing (tm), I don't see why not |
| 18:18:18 | Torne | wha? |
| 18:18:28 | Torne | The current behaviour is fine/correct for almost everyone |
| 18:18:38 | alexbobP | 11:03:30 < Torne> the issue peopl ehave with devices that expect to read the itunesdb over USB when they notice the device is an ipod |
| 18:18:57 | alexbobP | isn't that a problem for anyone with a rockbox ipod? |
| 18:19:02 | Torne | no.. |
| 18:19:25 | Torne | it's a problem for anyone with a USB host device which assumes that iPods should only be accessed via the itunesdb remote protocol |
| 18:19:34 | Torne | and doesn't give you any way of configuring that |
| 18:19:41 | Torne | which is a tiny number of people, tbh ;) |
| 18:19:45 | alexbobP | ah, okay |
| 18:19:55 | Torne | since it basically boils down to "some expensive car head units" and "some expensive hifis/amps" |
| 18:20:05 | alexbobP | I don't see what the potential is for problems if an ipod looks like it's a different msd device |
| 18:20:59 | Torne | well, apart from anything else, people seem to like to fiddle with settings without knowing what they mean or do :) |
| 18:21:15 | Torne | and changing the device id will cause it to behave differently on many OSes the next time you plug it into the PC |
| 18:21:15 | alexbobP | of course, it's fun :D |
| 18:21:29 | alexbobP | wouldn't it just behave like a flash drive? |
| 18:21:29 | Torne | be assigned a different drive letter, have its autoplay/whatever done differently, etc |
| 18:21:38 | alexbobP | hehe, drive letters... |
| 18:21:42 | Torne | it would behave like a *different* flash drive |
| 18:21:52 | Torne | whereas normally it's always the same device :) |
| 18:22:00 | alexbobP | is it a problem when it gets a different drive letter? :P |
| 18:22:20 | Torne | might be. users don't generally expect the identity of a device to change once they've already used it |
| 18:22:29 | Torne | i'm not saying it's a crippling issue or anything |
| 18:22:32 | n1s | ah, restored inlining got that down to 2% :) |
| 18:22:39 | Torne | but it's some potential confusion ;) |
| 18:22:44 | alexbobP | well okay |
| 18:22:54 | alexbobP | it's of no consequence to me, since I tend to shirk away from buying apple products |
| 18:23:23 | alexbobP | Sansa seems to be doing nothing to try to stop rockbox, and I like their players |
| 18:23:51 | Torne | nobody's ever really done anything to try to stop rockbox specifically :) |
| 18:23:55 | | Nick m|c is now known as miceh (~mtq@h1439481.stratoserver.net) |
| 18:23:58 | gevaerts | Torne: actually, we don't just assume that nobody cares if we reuse the VID/PID that the device's OF uses. Llorean (IIRC it was him) sent an email to the USB-IF explaining the situation, and they said this is fine |
| 18:23:59 | | Join casainho [0] (~chatzilla@bl16-85-185.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 18:24:05 | Torne | Oh, ok |
| 18:24:09 | Torne | well that's even better :) |
| 18:24:26 | Torne | but that doesn't speak to their opinoin on letting users set it to something else.. |
| 18:24:43 | alexbobP | their opinion on letting *users* set it to something else is irrelevant :P |
| 18:24:43 | gevaerts | exactly |
| 18:25:00 | gevaerts | Well, technically lots of systems allow setting this |
| 18:25:15 | gevaerts | If you have a windows mobile device, you can change VID and PID |
| 18:25:35 | Torne | Well, sure |
| 18:25:36 | gevaerts | All you need is a registry editor :) |
| 18:25:39 | alexbobP | Torne: maybe nobody is specifically attacking rockbox, but doesn't apple design their players to only accept firmware that they signed or something? |
| 18:25:55 | gevaerts | alexbobP: yes, but that's not against rockbox |
| 18:26:04 | Torne | alexbobP: yes. but that's just the way they do their next generation of hardware |
| 18:26:11 | alexbobP | gevaerts: it's against homebrew in general, and rockbox is homebrew |
| 18:26:17 | gevaerts | not really |
| 18:26:19 | Torne | secure boot chain is pretty much a standard thing you do on embedded hardware these days |
| 18:26:23 | gevaerts | That's against people who modify the firmware to circumvent DRM on their music and apps |
| 18:26:26 | Torne | indeed |
| 18:26:32 | alexbobP | hahahahaha |
| 18:26:42 | alexbobP | I cannot fathom the concept of somebody who decides their best bet to break drm |
| 18:26:42 | Torne | you laugh but people do that |
| 18:26:45 | alexbobP | is to tamper with device firmware |
| 18:26:51 | Torne | there are loads of patched apple firmwares for ipods around |
| 18:26:55 | alexbobP | drm is always so easy to break directly on your computer! |
| 18:27:13 | Torne | gevaerts: well, things like the FT232 let you just set it :) |
| 18:27:21 | alexbobP | anyways the concept of drm is retarded. I don't respect apple anymore because they're trying to "protect drm" instead of just stick it to rockbox :P |
| 18:27:22 | Torne | alexbobP: you don't understand what we're talking about, then :) |
| 18:27:48 | alexbobP | Torne: um, what? I'm familiar with "fair"play. |
| 18:27:52 | Torne | gevaerts: actually FTDI give you a PID under their VID if you ask for one |
| 18:28:09 | Torne | gevaerts: but you are supposed to be a bona-fide FTDI customer using FTDI chips |
| 18:28:09 | Torne | :) |
| 18:28:29 | Torne | alexbobP: see the iphone/ipodtouch/etc where you can install apps.. you can't break the DRM for those apps on the computer because they are checked on the device |
| 18:28:33 | Torne | you have to do something to the device |
| 18:28:51 | alexbobP | Torne: oh, I was just thinking about music drm |
| 18:28:53 | alexbobP | Torne: I see what you mean |
| 18:29:07 | Torne | there are other restrictions, yes |
| 18:29:12 | alexbobP | y'know, theoretically you could still crack any app on your computer |
| 18:29:17 | Torne | no you can't. |
| 18:29:21 | alexbobP | but that's harder than modifying firmware |
| 18:29:23 | alexbobP | Torne: of course you can |
| 18:29:26 | Torne | this is offtopic, anyway |
| 18:29:31 | alexbobP | Torne: any app is just a collection of data, and if you modify it you can do what you want |
| 18:29:52 | gevaerts | alexbobP: *if* you can get it to load |
| 18:31:05 | Torne | gevaerts: so, yeah, i feel like we should do *something* for the people who have these devices that need the VID/PID changing to be usable |
| 18:31:11 | Torne | gevaerts: but not sure what the sensible option is :) |
| 18:31:27 | gevaerts | Torne: I think the main blocker is that we need a good not too difficult way for users to set a different VID/PID pair, while at the same time not inviting people to play with that setting for the fun of it (because of the "interestin" effects it can have), *and* without us suggesting a VI/PID pair |
| 18:31:49 | alexbobP | are there any Apple brand flash drives? you should steal the VID/PID from that |
| 18:31:55 | alexbobP | why is it a problem if users want to play with the setting? |
| 18:32:08 | Torne | gevaerts: well, you could just have it as a config setting with no menu option |
| 18:32:40 | gevaerts | alexbobP: why would Apple-brand flash drives be better than anything else? And besides, *we* can't suggest any set of numbers |
| 18:33:07 | S_a_i_n_t | you could just have a menu somewhere, with VID/PID1 and VID/PID2 |
| 18:33:29 | gevaerts | Torne: that's one way, but most people don't really like file-only settings |
| 18:33:49 | Torne | gevaerts: by people do you mean users or us? :) |
| 18:33:54 | gevaerts | alexbobP: because it can cause all sorts of weirdness, leading to masses of support issues |
| 18:33:57 | gevaerts | Torne: devs :) |
| 18:34:05 | Torne | i was hoping in general that a user who needs this feature doesn't need to change it *back* ever |
| 18:34:11 | Torne | i.e. they don't also use anything that depends on it being the apple one |
| 18:34:23 | Torne | i don't think it's unreasonable to have a file-only setting for *this* |
| 18:34:26 | Torne | in general sure, that sucks |
| 18:34:33 | Torne | but this is a pretty weird and obscure thing |
| 18:34:39 | gevaerts | I agree, but you know this "precedent" thing :) |
| 18:34:54 | alexbobP | gevaerts: if we don't suggest a set of numbers people are not likely to know which ones are even for MSD devices |
| 18:35:07 | alexbobP | gevaerts: and I just figured an ipod behaving as an apple flash drive would seem fitting... |
| 18:35:21 | alexbobP | at least it would show up as the correct color in the little icon popping up on your mac ;) |
| 18:35:27 | Torne | it doesn't matter what kind of device it's for |
| 18:35:30 | | Join Strife89TX [0] (~cstrife89@207.144.201.128) |
| 18:35:31 | Torne | in general. |
| 18:35:32 | gevaerts | alexbobP: that's the whole point! Using VID/PID to decide how to talk to a device is *broken*! |
| 18:35:40 | Torne | the VID/PID are not what's generally used to decide that :) |
| 18:35:48 | Torne | the device seperately says "i am a mass storage device" |
| 18:35:51 | Torne | that's a different thing |
| 18:35:58 | alexbobP | well that's good, because that seems about as reasonable as paying attention to filename extensions |
| 18:36:02 | gevaerts | And using the Apple VID would likely not even fix the actual issue for some people |
| 18:36:05 | Torne | you just need to pick a VID/PID that your OS doesn't already have a specific driver for. |
| 18:36:14 | Torne | basically. |
| 18:36:14 | alexbobP | but since the workaround is for devices that *do* pay attention to the VID, it seems like what VID you use might be important :P |
| 18:36:25 | Torne | alexbobP: they are only looking for one vendor, though :) |
| 18:36:25 | | Join s1gma_ [0] (~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131) |
| 18:36:33 | Torne | they almost certainly treat every *other* vid identically |
| 18:36:41 | Torne | apple or not-apple |
| 18:37:36 | gevaerts | And we as a project can *not* pick a VID/PID pair. To do that, we either have to steal one from someone else which could well lead to trouble, or pay $2000 |
| 18:37:42 | gevaerts | (unless prices have changed) |
| 18:37:58 | alexbobP | what if it's randomized? |
| 18:38:00 | Strife89TX | timccc: For now the only way to change the font in the Stopwatch is to change the entire skin's font manually. |
| 18:38:02 | Torne | alexbobP: same thing |
| 18:38:11 | gevaerts | even worse actually |
| 18:38:17 | Torne | alexbobP: the point you are missing here is we don't want to do that because of a sense of professional responsibility |
| 18:38:23 | Torne | not because we are afraid of getting in trouble |
| 18:38:24 | timccc | thanks Strife89TX |
| 18:38:29 | Torne | standards bodies are a good thing and exist for a reason |
| 18:38:44 | Strife89TX | timccc: Settings −−> Theme Settings −−> Font |
| 18:38:50 | alexbobP | Torne: to get $2000 from every device manufacturer ;) |
| 18:38:52 | Strife89TX | Might get annoying though. |
| 18:38:52 | | Quit swilde (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) |
| 18:39:12 | gevaerts | alexbobP: developing USB costs money too |
| 18:39:14 | Torne | alexbobP: you wouldn't be very happy with "USB" if it wasn't the USB tha tthe USB-IF define |
| 18:39:33 | | Quit _s1gma (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 18:39:34 | alexbobP | heh, probably wouldn't be very universal... |
| 18:39:37 | Torne | exactly |
| 18:40:23 | * | Strife89TX reckons it would be neat if someone added a separate font setting for plugins like Stopwatch. |
| 18:40:34 | gevaerts | These industry organisations with strict rules and big companies behind them (and fees...) are why you can buy a device these days and mostly expect it to work. Remember ISA? |
| 18:40:54 | | Join _s1gma [0] (~d.d.derp@77.107.164.131) |
| 18:41:53 | n1s | hmm, getting usefull results from profiling on coldfire is harder than i thought since function calls are so expensive inlining makes a very big difference but letting gcc inline as much as it wants means only a few functions remain... |
| 18:42:18 | | Quit s1gma_ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) |
| 18:43:06 | timccc | ya. if you're trying to read while running a large font goes a long way. it's enough of a hassle to constantly play around with the theme settings that i don't bother. |
| 18:45:44 | Strife89TX | I don't know the code, but AFAIK it could be a nearly copy-paste process from the text viewer's font setting. |
| 18:45:54 | S_a_i_n_t | you can easily just use two .cfgs |
| 18:46:46 | Strife89TX | S_a_i_n_t: That's a bit iffy, it'd only be for one setting and he'd still have to punch through a menu. |
| 18:47:24 | S_a_i_n_t | Easiest way a non-coder's going to be able to achieve it, though. |
| 18:47:25 | Strife89TX | Plus Rockbox will probably take longer to load such a .cfg than to just load another font. |
| 18:47:51 | | Quit panni_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 18:48:31 | n1s | Strife89TX: why would that take longer? |
| 18:48:38 | timccc | right, saint's only being practical in the interim. could i create a cfg that set fontsize 32 and another that set fontsize 12 and be done with it? |
| 18:48:44 | | Quit casainho (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100922073514]) |
| 18:48:51 | S_a_i_n_t | I'm sure a seperate font setting could be integrated into the Stopwatch plugin, but someone has to actually do the work which I wouldn't hold my breath for unless someone takes a particular interest in who has the coding chops to actually be able to do it. |
| 18:49:06 | n1s | timccc: basically, but you need to select a 12pixel font and a 32 pixel one |
| 18:49:11 | S_a_i_n_t | timccc: Yeah. |
| 18:49:59 | timccc | cool, i'll give it a go now |
| 18:50:36 | S_a_i_n_t | then, all you'll be doing is browsing a .cfg for Big/Small fonts. You can even use a "fixed.cfg" to make sure that your player always boots with a specific set of settings. |
| 18:51:08 | S_a_i_n_t | I use that (a fixed.cfg) to make sure that my player always defaults to my preferred settings every time it boots. |
| 18:51:26 | Strife89TX | S_a_i_n_t: The text viewer (a plugin) already has a separate-font setting. Forgive my short-sightedness, but does *that* much have to be done aside from copying that bit of code over to the stopwatch (also a plugin) and adding a menu? |
| 18:52:04 | Torne | sounds sufficient to me :) |
| 18:52:40 | Strife89TX | It just doesn't sound like it would be that difficult for someone who has an idea of what they're doing. |
| 18:52:45 | S_a_i_n_t | Strife89TX: Not really, no...but my point wasn't really anything to do with how easy it is or isn't to do, it's getting someone to do it ;) |
| 18:53:02 | timccc | ok, it's done. thank you :D |
| 18:53:13 | Strife89TX | S_a_i_n_t: I can't argue with that point. :) |
| 18:53:31 | Torne | that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask though :) |
| 18:54:07 | * | Strife89TX asks. :) |
| 18:54:34 | Torne | well not *me* ;) |
| 18:54:59 | S_a_i_n_t | To the 'Feature Ideas Forum'! |
| 18:55:14 | * | Strife89TX can't head there right now. :/ |
| 18:57:41 | S_a_i_n_t | Strife89TX: If I had a dev environment set up currently, I'd have a 'lil looksee at least, but I haven't got it up & running at the moment (been a slacker). |
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| 19:00 |
| 19:02:06 | n1s | hmmm, codebook decoding takes about 40% of the total time in vorbis decoding... |
| 19:02:15 | | Quit kazaik (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
| 19:02:23 | | Join saratoga [0] (9803c6dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.152.3.198.221) |
| 19:02:36 | n1s | on cf that is, i have a feeling this is a bit faster on arm |
| 19:02:37 | saratoga | Torne: I'd be ok with an option that flipped the USB IDs to that of the original Archos player |
| 19:02:44 | saratoga | seems fitting for our project |
| 19:02:51 | saratoga | so long as its off by default |
| 19:02:52 | Torne | hehe |
| 19:03:15 | S_a_i_n_t | "nostalgia mode" |
| 19:03:20 | gevaerts | saratoga: doesn't that one load special drivers in windows? |
| 19:03:57 | saratoga | i have no idea actually |
| 19:04:24 | saratoga | i doubt many people have the archos software installed anymore though |
| 19:05:11 | pixelma | AFAIK there is a linux driver for it too, written by Zagor |
| 19:05:47 | pixelma | and the Windows driver doesn't run in newer Windows versions |
| 19:06:26 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 19:06:34 | saratoga | didn't we have a patch that actually implemented that SCSI command various devices expected? |
| 19:07:14 | | Quit Strife89TX (Quit: Job application get?) |
| 19:08:22 | amiconn | [17:14:16] <n1s> regular playback is slower than realtime though so no real gain from test_codec <== What are you working on? |
| 19:08:27 | gevaerts | We have a patch that implements some ipod things, but that won't be sufficient. I assume the problematic hosts also assumes the original database, or even this USB audio streaming thing that apparently ipods can do |
| 19:08:51 | Torne | it's probably the direct track access over usb thing, yeah |
| 19:08:51 | n1s | amiconn: i was testing vorbis with profiling on my h300 |
| 19:09:08 | amiconn | ah |
| 19:09:11 | saratoga | they stream the file, or actual PCM data over USB? |
| 19:09:17 | Torne | it means the host doesn't have to speak all versions of itunesdb |
| 19:09:31 | Torne | i think it just tells you the path of the file |
| 19:09:37 | n1s | mainly to get an idea of where gcc 4.4 makes the code worse when i get around to test that again |
| 19:09:46 | Torne | not sure though |
| 19:09:53 | saratoga | ok that makes more sense |
| 19:10:10 | Torne | so the firmware does something mtp-like |
| 19:10:20 | pixelma | could Rockbox detect if something wants to talk to it in an unknown protocol? |
| 19:10:21 | n1s | if i mark most of the inline asm functions etc to be always_inline and noinstrument_function the speed is about realtime |
| 19:11:37 | Torne | i think it's weird scsi commands |
| 19:11:45 | Torne | rather than a different usb profile |
| 19:12:35 | gevaerts | If so, we can probably detect that, but this really needs investigation by someone who has such a device |
| 19:13:08 | gevaerts | But then we're probably better off if we just reverse engineer the protocol :) |
| 19:14:17 | Torne | we could maybe detect them but there is a lot of speculation here |
| 19:14:21 | saratoga | a message on the screen saying what happened might be nice |
| 19:14:31 | saratoga | like "unknown SCSI protocol detected" |
| 19:15:22 | amiconn | Regarding different VID/PID we have to be really careful, allocation issues aside |
| 19:17:00 | amiconn | Several of the existing usb msd solutions (both hw and sw) have quirks, and I know that at least some host usb stacks enable workarounds for those based on VID/PID |
| 19:17:09 | saratoga | FWIW it looks like the ffmpeg have done 90% of the NEON stuff we want already for us |
| 19:17:21 | Torne | amiconn: indeed |
| 19:17:38 | saratoga | so we should probably figure out if NEON helps battery life on Android, and then decide on a way to selectively enable it based on the host's ability |
| 19:18:29 | gevaerts | amiconn: actually, I wouldn't be surprised if we're already hitting some of those |
| 19:20:37 | amiconn | saratoga: This is something I'd be interested in... do you have an idea how it would be possible to write the source for the codec libs in a way that they could be compiled for either runtime-selection or compile-time selection of code paths, depending on arm architecture version? |
| 19:21:06 | saratoga | amiconn: make the codeclib functions as function pointers, and then set them based on what the host says it has |
| 19:21:19 | amiconn | Of course without comproising performance for either case |
| 19:22:40 | saratoga | ffmpeg has a huge library of NEON implemented functions for audio decoding, many of which are direct implementations of what we have taken from them in c |
| 19:23:24 | | Quit DerPapst (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 19:23:26 | saratoga | and converting NEON to fixed point is often relatively easy since so many operations in neon can work with either float or fixed point variables |
| 19:24:53 | amiconn | Hmm, we could compile all codecs multiple times, place them in subdirs of .rockbox/codecs/, and then select the subdir where to load codecs from at startup |
| 19:25:03 | amiconn | That won't work for in-core code though |
| 19:25:19 | saratoga | is that really better then just using function pointers? |
| 19:25:35 | | Join Help [0] (~ae170bef@giant.haxx.se) |
| 19:25:43 | amiconn | And it may unnecessarily duplicate codecs (those without specific optimisations) |
| 19:25:51 | amiconn | It's probably easier to implement |
| 19:26:01 | | Nick Help is now known as Guest3976 (~ae170bef@giant.haxx.se) |
| 19:26:02 | Guest3976 | hello |
| 19:26:12 | saratoga | in the long term it might be nice to try and consolidate all these different ASM functions |
| 19:26:33 | Guest3976 | Hey one question guys, where exactly is the download for rockboy for the e250v2 sansa? |
| 19:26:39 | saratoga | ffmpeg has the right idea i think, where they try to provide generic DSP operations (e.g. vector_mul_add) |
| 19:26:49 | saratoga | rockboy is built into rockbox |
| 19:26:54 | saratoga | you don't download it separately |
| 19:26:56 | saratoga | see manual |
| 19:27:27 | saratoga | various things in the codecs are presently duplicated |
| 19:27:47 | saratoga | for instance the mdct windowing is currently implemented in ARM ASM 6 different times by my count |
| 19:27:57 | amiconn | Yes, but then some optimisations are only effective when inlined |
| 19:28:07 | saratoga | true |
| 19:28:15 | Guest3976 | alright thak you |
| 19:28:35 | saratoga | although i wonder how many of those would be applicable to neon |
| 19:28:52 | saratoga | it seems most suited for things like filterbanks and transforms |
| 19:28:57 | | Quit Guest3976 (Client Quit) |
| 19:29:08 | saratoga | i'm not sure it would make sense to inline short blocks of NEON like we do with ASM to work around gcc crap |
| 19:29:26 | amiconn | One example are the various vector-multiply and combined vector-multiply/vector-add/sub implementations for the ape filters |
| 19:29:58 | saratoga | you wouldn't just call a NEON specific version of the entire filter? |
| 19:30:13 | amiconn | Then you have to build it twice |
| 19:30:49 | amiconn | The C code is generic - mentioned functions are inlined from .h files selected by CPU architecture and variant |
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| 19:31:18 | amiconn | s/twice/four times just for arm/ |
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| 19:32:00 | amiconn | v4, v5, v6 and v7 |
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| 19:34:35 | amiconn | Yet another detail is that the filter function isn't binary compatible across arm architecture versions |
| 19:34:45 | | Quit bmbl (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 19:35:01 | amiconn | The v4 version uses 32 bit ints (because it's faster there), v5 and higher use 16 bit ints |
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| 19:43:08 | bertrik | n1s, I looked into the clip v1 firmware to check the BLNDADJ setting for the si4702. It's set to a setting that enables stereo at the lowest RSSI. |
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| 19:43:33 | bertrik | Would you mind if I used the same setting in si4700.c ? |
| 19:43:42 | n1s | not at all |
| 19:43:56 | bertrik | ok, great |
| 19:44:18 | bertrik | I'll commit that later tonight then |
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| 20:00 |
| 20:13:34 | CIA-7 | New commit by bertrik (r28284): si4700 tuner: lower stereo switchover range, so it switches to stereo for weaker signals. Should fix FS #11405. |
| 20:15:13 | CIA-7 | r28284 build result: All green |
| 20:17:15 | linuxstb | bertrik: Did the person who opened that task reply somewhere else? Or are you just assuming it's fixed? |
| 20:18:01 | bertrik | no, he didn't reply somewhere else |
| 20:18:05 | * | linuxstb sees that task was from June... |
| 20:18:22 | bertrik | I tested this myself and it works for me |
| 20:23:53 | bertrik | I don't know what our policy is on keeping tasks like that open, when the bug is a bit subjective and the bug submitter is non-responsive. |
| 20:24:47 | n1s | i'd say close |
| 20:28:24 | linuxstb | Yes, I agree. I just mistakenly thought you posted that final patch recently for some reason. |
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| 21:08:20 | * | Strife89 wonders whatever happened to "Rockbox Modern". |
| 21:09:01 | bertrik | I have no idea what you're talking about |
| 21:09:21 | Strife89 | A proposed default theme, evidently. http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DefaultWPS |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).