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#rockbox log for 2011-01-06

00:00:06Torneindeed :)
00:00:22Torneunfortunately you are more likely to find that applied to the database
00:00:33Tornesince although yes, you fixed some bugs in it.. few other people ahve for a while :)
00:00:35sideralgaeverts: But conversely that means that "this guy is at least gonna work some more on the DB" is a very good argument for accepting my patches? ;)
00:01:53gevaertssideral: it doesn't mean that
00:01:54gevaertsAnd my name isn't gaeverts!
00:01:54sideralsorry about that
00:02:57gevaertsIt means "Even more complexity in an undermaintained important part from someone who *might* stay around"
00:02:57*gevaerts is being a bit extreme here
00:02:57gevaertsThat style of argument is very easy to turn around. I'd recommend avoiding it :)
00:03:24 Join xnyhps [0] (~xnyhps@xnyhps.nl)
00:04:40sideralWell, if every newcomer is greeted with the rigorousness I received, it may be hard to find anyone who'll stay around
00:04:45 Join Stephen__ [0] (~S@86.46.31.151)
00:04:48sideralBut advice accepted
00:05:07gevaertsYou did pick a controversial area
00:05:27B4gdersideral: I agree with that, but I think you stepped into something that people really have opinions about. We do appreciate your patience and persistence
00:05:35gevaertsIt's not always easy to know what those are in advance though
00:05:56Torneadding generic core features is a tricky one
00:06:06Tornedoing hardware-specific stuff, or plugins, or codecs, is easy
00:06:19*gevaerts is one of those people who don't care much about the details of this discussion as long as he can keep his precious bookmarks :)
00:06:50sideralI meant to save this for a later discussion, but this may point to an architectural weakness of Rockbox. Arguably, autoresume should have been implementable as a plug-in
00:07:10Torneno
00:07:15Tornethat's not what our plugin system is for
00:07:48Tornethere are things in the plugin system that could be improved, and i intend to have another go at some of htem sometime
00:08:06Tornebut we seem, generally, pretty happy with plugins as application type thingies
00:08:16Tornerather than extensions that control "core" behaviour
00:08:39sideralwhy? there's so much good stuff in FS that would make a good behavioral plugin
00:09:09Torneare there really?
00:09:42Tornealso, bear in mind that making sure appropriate hooks/interfaces are available takes space
00:09:45sideralAs an example, behavioral plugins are very popular for Squeezeboxes (Logitech HW MP3 players that have an open-source server software)
00:10:00Torneif you want to allow lots of things to be customised, then you have to make your code much more complex to accomodate it
00:10:16Tornesee, say, the source for irssi for an example of this taken to the extreme of absolute incomprehensibility
00:10:31gevaertsYou can do a lot of things from a plugin, but don't forget that we can only load one plugin at a time
00:10:33sideralI appreciate the space argument, but arguable much of the stuff currently in core could be an optional plugin as well, saving lots of space
00:10:37Torne(irssi dispatches almost all internal events via crazy string basde signal stuff, so that irssi-perl can interfere)
00:10:54Tornethe first issue there is currently we can only load one at a time :)
00:10:57 Quit [Saint] (Disconnected by services)
00:10:58Tornethat's something i intend to try and sort
00:10:59 Join S_a_i_n_t [0] (S_a_i_n_t@203.184.2.167)
00:11:14sideralgevaerts: I know, being able to load only one plugin is part of the problem
00:11:21Tornebut still, evne allowing multiple plugins to be loaded doesn't mean you can do that in an unrestricted fashion, you need to get memory for them from somewhere
00:11:35Torneso you kinda need to steal it from the audio buffer :)
00:11:35sideralAnd yes, doing this right may be hard
00:11:39Tornewhich requires stopping playback
00:11:54gevaertssideral: having multiple plugins would allow lots of fun stuff. Please fix that for us :)
00:11:58Torneyeah
00:12:01Torne:)
00:12:14Tornegevaerts: i still mean to look at linking plugins as flt's sometime
00:12:17Torneand writing a flt loader
00:12:29sideralIt would be easier for targets with an MMU
00:12:38gevaertsWe have one of those IIRC
00:12:45TorneWe have several, now
00:12:46Torneand no, not really
00:12:53Tornenot unless you are going to put htem all in their own address space
00:12:58Tornewhich would be very odd
00:13:05Torneand make it difficult to make plugins that did certain kinds of hting
00:13:12sideralwhy would that be odd? the plugin API is quite well defined
00:13:21TorneIt's only well defined *now*
00:13:29Tornewhat you're talking about would require it to be substantially larger and more complex
00:13:33Torneand have a lot more datastructures in it
00:13:38 Join simon_ [0] (~simon@static-212.214.179.102.addr.tdcsong.se)
00:13:53Torneit may be easier at that point to jus tlink to rockbox symbols directly :)
00:14:06Tornesince if you have a relocating loader that's just another kind of relocation
00:14:27gevaertsAt that point I think we should consider that, yes
00:14:39sideralyes, there would be challenges. aahh, challenges! :)
00:14:44Tornewe'd want to link by ordinal, of course :)
00:15:02Tornetoo many strings in the shared-object model
00:15:27gevaertssideral: the problem is that those people who want this sort of thing don't have enough RAM in a typical DAP to store their TODO lists :)
00:16:04sideralanyway, I'll keep that in the back of my mind
00:16:04Tornemy rockbox todo list is only getting longer at the moment :(
00:16:22Tornebut yes, i think youare *partly* right
00:16:42Torneallowing the plugin api to accomodate things like your autoresume would be a bit much, imo, unless someone presented a very clever design
00:16:50sideralI now it will be harder than in Squeezebox server (written in Perl)
00:16:53Tornebut letting plugins provide extra menu options/etc would be reasonable/good
00:17:01Torneonce we have the ability to load multiple plugins.
00:17:08Tornethat way, you can easily turn on/off entire features
00:17:19sideralexactly
00:17:25Tornebut your resuming thing is too intimately tied to the db to make it easy to modularise in that way
00:18:01Tornemaking the db able to, say, store arbitrary key/value pairs for tracks on plugins' behalf would make it rather more complicated than it already is
00:18:09Torneand it's already quite complicated enough as you've seen :)
00:18:14sideralit's only a question of how extensible the DB is. every good API has an ioctl-like escape hook ;)
00:18:27Tornethat's the wrong way around, though :)
00:18:33Tornethe problem is that you want the db to store data for you
00:18:57Torneso in concept that's easy, as i just said
00:19:05Tornebut in practise implementing that efficiently is hard
00:19:09Torneimplementing it badly is easy
00:19:29sideralagreed
00:19:47 Join stoffel [0] (~quassel@p57B4B976.dip.t-dialin.net)
00:19:49Torneso yeah. the first thing before any of that ind of thign is useful/relevant is being able to load relocatable plugins
00:19:54Torneso that we can have more than one
00:20:12Torneafter that i would be very much in favour of extending the plugin api to be able to hook menus/etc
00:20:13sideralright
00:20:19Tornewith a sufficiently careful design
00:20:34Torneand then maybe we can kick various core features out into plugins
00:20:41Tornee.g. the radio that lots of people seem to want to be able to disable
00:20:46Torne:)
00:21:00sideralI saw that there's already support for TSR-like plugins. does any plugin use that?
00:21:06Tornebattery bench
00:21:08Torneis why that exists.
00:21:22sideralah
00:21:25Tornethe support is very limited, basically all you can do is register a timer
00:21:31gevaertsAnd the car audio adapter thing for archoses
00:21:46Torneyou can't wait for arbitrary things to happen and take control again
00:21:54Torneonly a small set of callbacks
00:22:12sideralI saw that it is very limited −− and that the plugin is unloaded as soon as another plugin comes along
00:22:13Torneand while one is running you can't run anothe rplugin, of course
00:22:15Tornesince they're in the same memory
00:22:27Torneit's just there for those two things, it's not meant to be a generally useful facility
00:23:19sideralok. just asking because my first thought was to use it for autoresume, and because i wondered why the scrobbler is not implemented as a plugin
00:23:36 Quit robin0800 (Remote host closed the connection)
00:23:44Torneyeah; there's no way to do anything in response to playback, or any other kind of system event really
00:24:12gevaertsYou can do stuff, but then your plugin has to basically take over everything
00:24:14Torneit's just a special way of exiting a plugin that causes it not to get unloaded
00:24:26sideralB4gder: thanks for the encouragement BTW :)
00:24:26Torneso that any timers/callbacks/etc you have left set up will still work
00:24:29Torneinstead of crashing the device
00:24:41gevaertsAnd threads, probably
00:24:41Tornethere's no hooking/etc provided specifically for it
00:24:53Tornegevaerts: i guess
00:25:01Torneso yeah. you just hand the UI thread back to the core
00:25:06Torneand leave the code in ram.
00:25:09JdGordon|the plugins could register for the playback events
00:25:12Torneand then you get called again at time to exit
00:25:22Torneso you can clean up before you are unloaded for real.
00:25:38***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:25:41TorneJdGordon|: perhaps, i dunno how that works
00:25:50Tornebut in any case it would be useless at present because of hte one-plugin limit
00:26:00gevaertsPlugins already *can* do a lot of things, but this "one at a time" thing makes a lot of those things not worth doing
00:26:05Torneyah
00:26:14sideralwell put
00:26:27JdGordon|what happened to pebbles? :)
00:26:29Tornedynamic menus would be the thing here, i think :)
00:26:44Tornesome way to have menu options added/removed at runtime
00:26:49Tornethen they can point to plugin functions
00:26:57Torneand htings like the pictureflow integration can be done without touching core.
00:27:03sideralyeah, main menu theming! *ducks*
00:27:15gevaertsJdGordon|: they're waiting for Torne to finish this loader :)
00:27:26TorneWell yes, everyone is waiting for someone to write a relocating loader
00:27:28Torne:)
00:27:35gevaertsNot just someone :)
00:27:47Tornei decline ownership of this problem :)
00:27:53Tornemr. someone can have it
00:29:54sideralresident plugins also would make the lua plugin more useful I think
00:30:10Tornenot particularly
00:30:21sideralsuddenly everyone could script any behavior
00:30:28Tornewell no
00:30:40sideraland have it accessible from the gui
00:30:43Tornethe current lua viewer is pretty much identical in capabilities to just coding for pluginapi
00:30:51Torneexcept you can do it in lua instead of C
00:30:56Torneslowly, and with less ram available
00:31:11Torneany future rework of plugins would extend the same benefits to lua, pretty much, but that's not a huge win :)
00:31:17 Quit Strife89 (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:31:48sideralit makes extension-writing more accessible, methinks −− but not everyone speak lua :)
00:32:00Tornei really don't think that's actually true
00:32:11Torneit's a cute toy, but the wya it exposes pluginapi is very literal
00:32:19Tornesince that's the only thing you can reasonably autogenerate
00:32:30Torneso for anything nontrivial you really might as well pick up a C book
00:32:35Torneand write it natively
00:32:46Tornesince almost all the function calls will look suspiciously similar
00:33:06Torneyou have to install a toolchain, then, but hey. you save a lot of performance and memory.
00:34:03Torne(and i say this as a huge advocate of dynamic and vm languages)
00:34:13 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@adsl-80-182-197.mcn.bellsouth.net)
00:34:13sideralby the time we're done with relocatable plugins, memory will not be an issue any more ;)
00:34:20Tornehahahahano
00:34:31Torne(have you seen how big luaviewer is?)
00:35:52sideralno?
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00:36:03Tornewell... i don't remember
00:36:27Tornebut it's sufficiently big that it has to stop playback and load into the audio buffer on all but the largest ram targets
00:36:38Tornein order for there to be room on the lua heap to actually run any lua code
00:37:15sideralI see
00:37:28sideralI was impressed to see that someone wrote a game in lua
00:37:32Torneoh, sure.
00:37:37Torneit's a fairly simple game, though
00:38:10sideralyeah, IIRC it doesn't work very well on my small Clip's screen
00:38:17Tornenot wanting to belittle the effort put into it, but i suspect it wouldn't be much bigger (in source) or much more complicated if it were written in C
00:38:56Torneif you have sufficient knowledge and programming chops to be able to write something for our lua viewer that does something visible (which means calling our plugin api) then you could probably learn to do the same in C in a couple weeks :)
00:39:17sideralI get your point
00:40:03Torneif we wanted to make it easier to develop plugins, especially standalone things like games, we'd do better to, say, implement a higher level graphics engine that understood sprites/etc and stick it in pluginlib for people to use
00:40:32Tornei have pondered trying to port one of the open source rpgmaker type engines to rockbox
00:40:49Tornebut most of the open ones suck or are seriously unfinished, and i got bored of looking
00:41:14sideralmaybe you could port that text adventure engine?
00:41:23TorneOne step ahead of you
00:41:29Torne:)
00:41:34Tornei ported frotz like a year ago
00:41:48Tornei should do more work on that sometime, i haven't done colours yet
00:41:54Torneand i should work out a way to do proportional fonts
00:42:06Torneit works and games are playable, though
00:42:12Torneassuming they don't midn the tiny screen dimensions
00:42:20Tornewhich are below the z-machine's recommended minimums
00:42:35Torneand asusming you don't kill yourself trying to use our virtual keyboard to type anything
00:42:49 Quit CaptainKewlllll (Quit: Page closed)
00:43:05sideralhmm.. haven't stumbled over it yet. it doesn't seem to be built for the Clip
00:43:11Tornereally?
00:43:15Tornehm
00:43:24Torneoh, i think it only gets built for things iwth bigger plugin buffers
00:43:35Tornebecause i never got around to setting it up to build it as an overlay in the audio buffer
00:43:42Torneand frotz is not small
00:43:52sideraldoesn't the ClipV2 have a mighty memory size?
00:44:05Tornei forget
00:44:09TorneOh, it's a viewer.
00:44:12Torneof course.
00:44:16Torneso you won't've seen it
00:44:18sideralah
00:44:18Tornebecause it's not in the menu
00:44:20Tornejust run a .z5
00:44:28Torne(or other .z format
00:44:43Torneit should handle them all except .z6 will be hopelessly broken due to frotz not implementing any of the graphics stuff
00:45:49sideralI guess it is not opportune to ask where to get .z5s from?
00:46:05Torneyou're welcome to; a large number are freely distributable
00:46:11Tornethere are links to several sites in the manual :)
00:46:16Torneif-archive.org is the main one
00:46:24Tornevirtually all modern interactive fiction is free
00:46:31Tornethe classic Infocom games aren't, though
00:46:48Torneso if you want to play HHGTG you'll hav eto look for an old infocom compilation in a bargain bin :)
00:47:10 Join Strife1989 [0] (~Strife89@adsl-80-141-244.mcn.bellsouth.net)
00:47:12gevaertsOr for that old floppy you have somewhere
00:47:16Torneyeah
00:47:24Torneone of the datafiles on there will be a zmachine story file
00:47:35pixelmaI definitely remember having played that lua plugin during playback (on the c200v1 and M5, the latter having a bit less RAM but still better than the newer Sansas). The one thing I remember about it that it slows down to a crawl during rebuffering
00:47:37Tornebut there's no decent magic to identify them and infocom called them .dat or similar :)
00:47:53Tornepixelma: it's only an overlay on lowmem targets
00:48:03Tornei think it needs 129kb plugin buffer?
00:48:22Torneer, 128
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00:48:51pixelmaah, well - didn't like it too much anyway
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00:49:20Tornesideral: if you want to try one out, get Curses from the ifarchive, anyway
00:49:23Tornethat's a modern classic
00:49:33Torneand i know it works on rockbox frotz
00:49:41sideralOK, just opened that page :)
00:49:43Tornewell the first five commands or so work
00:49:53Tornei get frustrated with the ipod virtual keyboard and ragequit after that
00:52:52Torneso yeah, i guess rockbox supports a third way of writing stuff.. you could write it in inform and compile it to a zmachine story
00:52:55Torne:)
00:53:03Tornethe API available there is very limited though :)
00:53:08sideral:)
00:53:18Tornei did a quick hack to be able to play zmachine tetris
00:53:32Tornehave to hack the frotz code to do custom button mappings
00:54:41sideralok, have Curses on my player now, will try it next time I'm in the gym :)
00:57:59sideralit's cool −− but I need to stop playing it now
01:00
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02:25:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:44:09krabadorhi people, i'm on android, i run the rockbox svn download on the site, and i can tell you it's the best flac player for android
02:44:51 Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:45:46krabadorfor my smartphone, with a qualcomm 528mhz and 256mb ram
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02:47:12krabadoreverything available for flac i tried, have many playback problems
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02:57:21krabadori only want to ask you a thing. Android doesn't support smb shares, a browser it's needed, rockbox will support smb shares
02:57:27krabador?
02:59:05JdGordon|no, why would it
03:00
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03:00:45krabadorbecause some android file browsers don't let the user chose the app to use to open files
03:01:29JdGordon|rockbox will open any file mounted by the file system... we have no intention o adding extra file browsing capabilities
03:01:39JdGordon|if you want to view SMB shares you need to get android to mount it
03:02:44krabadorif rockbox browser will support shares, multimedia sharing will be very easy
03:04:35krabadoryes people without root permission can't do many things, one of that is smb
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09:57:46*[Saint] wonders what FS #11862 looks like.
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10:52:04Buschelanyone seen mt lately?
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11:38:53Buschelany objections to disable mp3_encoding for pcm files with sampling rates != 44100 Hz ? right now such files results in an unusable output (sse FS #10678).
11:39:10Torneseems like a sensible thing to do
11:39:33*Buschel cannot figure out the root cause of this error...
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12:02:20n1shmm, the kernel mirror that we use in rockboxdev.sh doesn't have mpc so i'd like to change that to gcc.gnu.org and use the infrastructure dir they have set up that has the sources for all required libs, only the version of gmp is older than the one we use now but i don't think that matters
12:03:28gevaertsThat seems to make sense
12:16:50linuxstbn1s: Did you see (in the logs) my comment here last night about cygwin and /lib/gcc ?
12:17:19n1slinuxstb: no
12:17:29n1si'll look now
12:18:54n1sah, yes i thought about that so i (think i) deleted the symlink before installing g++ and it wasn't created but i'll retry that i think
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12:34:13*amee2k patiently waits for kugel to un-pingout again...
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13:04:14CIA-7New commit by 03Buschel (r28973): Related to FS #10678. The mp3 encoder plugin of Rockbox does not encode MPEG2 layer3 properly and does not support MPEG2.5 layer3 at all. Therefor only ...
13:06:05CIA-7r28973 build result: All green
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13:34:52amee2ksometimes i think half this channel is composed of t-online users :P
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14:49:47kugelamee2k: pong
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14:52:03amee2k\o/
14:52:11amee2kcan you hang on for a few more minutes?
14:52:32amee2ki'm untangling a roll of magnet wire that unrolled itself on my desk
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14:56:11amee2kbah, done
14:56:28amee2kwhat a piece of sh..
14:58:07kugelok, now back to topic :)
14:58:12amee2kyep
14:58:23amee2ki'm back at my place again
14:58:37amee2kyou mentioned there was a patch i would be interrested in trying?
14:58:55amee2koh, and i secured a second dev system if this armada1700 doesn't work out
14:59:02amee2kan old inspiron 8000
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15:00:11kugelthe patch is in svn
15:00:22kugelit makes sdl screen updates faster
15:00:34amee2kmmmh, how do i download it?
15:00:46kugelsvn up
15:00:51*amee2k is an svn noob
15:01:11AlexPLook at the wiki page called (I think) UsingSVN
15:02:42gevaertskugel: did you see the problems with the app and sim_*()?
15:03:13kugeli read about them, but I haven't looked into it
15:04:18amee2khmmm its doing something
15:06:14amee2ksays updated revision 28973
15:06:34amee2kdo i need to reconfigure it now? or can i just run make
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15:12:39n1shere's my rockboxdev update, making it easier to support newer gcc version (good for upcomming coldfire toolchain upgrade)
15:12:41n1shttp://pastebin.ca/2039520
15:16:27*Torne has a look
15:17:03Torneyou're hardcoding mirrorservice.org?
15:17:21n1sTorne: is there a better way?
15:17:41Torneisn't there a reflector for gnu?
15:17:42n1sthe mirror switch was so i can pull all the libs from the same place
15:18:09Torneftpmirror.gnu.org is geolocated
15:18:38amee2kkugel: i reconfigured, then ran make
15:18:38n1scool, i'll use that then
15:18:40Tornemirrorservice is in the UK
15:18:41amee2kand got a build error
15:19:22n1sTorne: yeah, i just picked one off of gcc's website that worked, their US mirror timed out :/
15:19:34amee2ksim_creat, sim_remove, sim_rename. sim_opendir, sim_mkdir and sim_rmdir undeclared in rockbox/apps/plugin.c lines 317 through 345
15:19:50Tornethe main gnu ftp server is perpetually overloaded, yes :)
15:20:06Torneanyway other than that it looks fine
15:20:18Tornediff hunk line 253 is spurious
15:21:15n1sit's an unrealted typo fix
15:21:25n1sthanks for looking
15:21:31Torneoh, i couldn't see the typo, sorry
15:21:35Tornei thought it was whitespace
15:23:21kugelamee2k: that's what gevaerts just mentioned IIRC
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15:24:51amee2koh, hehe
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15:41:02gevaertsn1s: looks ok I think
15:42:03gevaertsamee2k, kugel: yes, that's the problem I was talking about. If you revert r28927 and r28929, it will build, but then some plugins may not work correctly
15:46:21amee2khm.
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15:46:38amee2kthere is so much conditional code in there that i'm having problems keeping track of it :P
15:56:43CIA-7New commit by 03nls (r28974): rockboxdev.sh: ...
15:59:19CIA-7r28974 build result: All green
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16:48:32fmlamee2k: (also gevaerts and kugel): I've started an attempt to clean up the usage of app_xxx vs. sim_xxx but had no time to complete it. The fix would touch quite a few files, but it should be done since now it's such a mess.
16:49:48fmlI only posted a bit as a pastebin, there is no flyspry entry (gevaerts has seen this).
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16:54:13Buschelstrrrrike !
16:54:17Buschel\o/
16:54:30amee2kyou got laid?
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16:55:20*Buschel found the basic error in rockbox' mp3_encoder
16:55:31amee2k0.0
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17:44:49kugeln1s: i'm not able to set up a toolchain with rockboxdev.sh
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18:17:23CIA-7New commit by 03lenzone10 (r28975): Updated italian translation.
18:20:25CIA-7r28975 build result: All green
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18:30:47nexesHi, I've been looking around and can't find any information about inline remotes for Rockbox with non-iPod devices. Does anyone know if the Klipsch S4i's inline remote might work?
18:33:13Tornefor what device?
18:33:35Tornewe generally support the standard remote for devices that come with one or have a first party one
18:33:49Torneso anything that connects the same and uses the same protocol will work too
18:33:51nexesIt's a Sansa Fuze.
18:34:29nexesAh, so a remote designed for an iPod probably wouldn't work with a Sansa device then?
18:34:33Torneno, no chance
18:34:44nexesI wasn't sure if there was any standardization for that stuff. Bummer.
18:34:47Tornenone whatsoever
18:35:23nexesThanks. :)
18:36:14Tornevery few devices that don't come with one support a remote at all, except ipods
18:36:37Torneand even then inline remotes on the headphone jack only work on later ipods that we are only just starting to support :)
18:36:43 Quit yahya69 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
18:36:54CIA-7New commit by 03Buschel (r28976): Finally fix FS #10678. Now the mp3 encoder plugin supports mono/stereo and the sampling rates 16/22.05/24/32/44.1/48 kHz.
18:37:18nexesAhah. Yeah, it would be great if there was some sort of standard for this stuff amongst devices.
18:37:33 Quit liar (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
18:37:49nexesOr the others shamelessly implemented hardware that just works with iPod remotes. >>
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18:38:16Tornethe standards for apple accessories are under NDA
18:38:33Torneso while someone could, it wouldn't be too easy and might be legally dubious depending how they did it
18:38:42nexesSure, but that hasn't seemed to stop everyone from reverse engineering the dock connector port for accessories.
18:38:51Torneit hasn't?
18:39:01Torneseems to have stopped most people pretty effectively
18:39:10Tornewe can't manage full accessory protocol support
18:39:14amee2kwell, at least it won't stop chinese people from doing it
18:39:16nexesOh, really? I must be making an incorrect assumption.
18:39:23nexesEveryone asks Aple for permission?
18:39:29Torneas far as we know everyone pays apple for the accessory devkit
18:39:49CIA-7r28976 build result: All green
18:39:52nexesI thought initially Apple wasn't allowing that. From the outset, did they have a devkit?
18:39:58Tornewell, everything that uses recent/clever protocol versions
18:40:14Tornestuff that's just docks with play/pause/etc might be suing the same reverse engineered info that we and other OSS people ahve :)
18:40:28Tornebut the later protocols that support things like head unit integration/etc appear to be unknown
18:40:33Torneexcept to people with apple docs
18:40:53Tornethe dock connector has had a standard spec you can buy from apple for a long time..
18:41:00nexesOh, that sucks. Do the new devices support the old standard still for backwards compatibility with old accessories?
18:41:02Tornei think probably since they started using the dock connector.
18:41:16TorneYes, the apple firmware talks all the protocols if it has the hardware to dos o
18:41:42Tornethe later protocols are magical usb stuff, we think, rather than serial on the accessory data pin
18:41:49Tornepossibly special SCSI requests
18:41:56Tornenobody's looked into it in much detail.
18:42:12Torneit's clever enough to let you browse the itunesdb, see album art, etc from a head unit, anyway
18:42:27nexesYeah.
18:43:14nexesCool, thanks for the info. Back to work. :)
18:43:43bertriknexes, one of the problems as I understand, is that there are relatively few people with accessories and even fewer people who also have the knowledge/motivation to work on rockbox ipod accessory support
18:45:04nexesYeah, I suppose part of the problem may be that not many people want to put Rockbox on a device like the iPod Touch, since it has a full OS on it...and that's where most of these accessories are being targeted.
18:45:37nexesI may be wrong with this assumption though.
18:46:13Buschel[Saint]: could you make some further tests on your iPod color regarding the tearing while scrolling during CPU boost?
18:46:43nexesSince part of the appeal is the games and other nonsense, otherwise the Touch seems to be serious overkill for playing music.
18:47:19TorneThe new accessory protocols work on the classic and similar too, though
18:47:23Torneand we have a port to that now
18:47:28Torneso, it may be relevant at some stage
18:47:37Torneand the later nanos
18:48:11nexesAh, that's true. To be honest, while I see people with the Nano, I hardly ever see (and know of no one with) the classic.
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18:49:25Tornefew people need that capacity, adn there's no other reason to want one
18:53:00*Buschel is surprised that the mp3 encoder plugin is not described in the manual...
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18:56:17amee2ki don't think its the only thing missing in there ;)
18:56:19nexesTorne: That's pretty much how I feel. My Fuze has 8GB, plus a 16GB microSDHC. I'm usually happy with v0 for portable stuff anyway, so really, it's plenty of space.
18:57:00nexesAnd it seems like we're not far away from affordable 32GB cards and 64GB hitting the market.
18:57:03Torneyeah. i have 65GB of music on my ipod though :)
18:57:12Torneand that's not my whole collection
18:57:15Torneor lossless.
18:57:43AlexPBuschel: Stick it on flyspray
18:58:02Buschelor write it by myself :)
18:58:04nexesNice. I have about 700GB of lossless, but I just move things around periodically to change it up.
18:58:16AlexPBuschel: That would be several million times better :)
18:58:49nexesI wouldn't argue with 200GB or something in my pocket, but I can live with what I have. ;)
18:58:53*Strife89TX could write is when he gets home.
18:58:55Strife89TX*it
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18:59:13Strife89TXBeen meaning to do some manual work anyway.
18:59:24Tornei need to use the clipv2 more, actually
18:59:30Torneso i can look for issues with the port :)
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18:59:42Torneipodvideo doesn't really need testing
19:00
19:00:32nexesWhat do you think of it thus far? My girl is close to picking one up for the gym. It seems like a nice little device.
19:00:33BuschelStrife89: talking of mp3 encoder?
19:00:44Strife89TXBuschel: Yeah.
19:01:06Buschelperfect. so, if you will do I am fine with it :)
19:01:13Strife89TXBut I won't be home for two+ hours, so if you write it before then, :)
19:01:20Tornethe device is very nice, the OF is surprisingly usable, and the rockbox port generally has worked okay for me but i've not used it a huge amount
19:01:58nexesCool. I used to appreciate my Shuffle for running, but the lack of display was a bit of an annoyance. The Clip seems like the Shuffle done right.
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19:05:09Torneyes, it's better than the shuffle in basically every way
19:05:23Torneespecially price/storage ratio :)
19:07:21Strife89TXWell, this is disappointing.
19:07:34Strife89TXSpent 35 minutes on that puzzle and failed it anyway.
19:10:37 Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven)
19:13:05LambdaCalculus37Question... is boomshine supposed to be built for the Archos JBR?
19:14:32LambdaCalculus37I noticed that it's listed on my JBR's plugin list, but it won't launch.
19:17:15BuschelStrife89: I will start the documentation here and either post it ti flyspray or submit it for further tuning :)
19:17:24 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~lem0n@ppp-237-135.98-62.inwind.it)
19:17:41pixelmaLambdaCalculus37: it is built but won't work and mcuelenaere once told me something as to why this is the case, I forgot though and also doubt that it couldn't be disabled
19:17:54pixelmaI mean why it is built at all
19:19:00LambdaCalculus37pixelma: It should be disabled from building if it doesn't work on the Archos devices.
19:19:24LambdaCalculus37(disabled only for Archos, of course)
19:19:39pixelmaas I tried to explain, mcuelenaere once told me why this wasn't possible
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19:21:01pixelmamaybe things changed and I don't know the reason anymore :\
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19:26:46pixelmait's probably all lowmem targets, not only Archos
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20:23:01max131r28962 stress test2 passed - copyied 400 songs in 30 different folders for a total amount of 1.2 GB to the uSD without issues
20:23:55max131r28962 stress test3 passed - update tags in +150 files with foobar2000 for applying replaygain tags
20:24:19max131i would say the USB driver on the fuzev1 is pretty solid now
20:24:42 Quit Zarggg (Quit: Zarggg)
20:26:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:28:11max131i never could do that on my fuzev1 without the USB stack locking up the fuzev1 entirely, when running builds between r28834 and r28962 that is
20:29:09max131so does it make sense to try to activate the patch from r28834 again?
20:29:26max131that's the one lowering the CPU and peripheral clocks in order to improve the battery life for AMSv1
20:29:49CIA-7New commit by 03Buschel (r28977): Add mp3 encoder plugin to manual.
20:30:50max131i'm not a coder myself, but i'm willing to try and test that if someone could apply that patch again
20:31:04 Quit balintx (Remote host closed the connection)
20:31:50gevaertsmax131: that one was reverted because of microSD issues, not USB issues
20:31:59CIA-7New commit by 03Buschel (r28978): Use consistent notation for MPEG Layer 3.
20:32:33CIA-7r28977 build result: All green
20:33:27max131well, i actually got file system corruptions since r28834, and these did not appear anymore after r28962
20:33:49max131that's why i was doing some stress tests in past days
20:34:16AlexPBuschel: Cool :) Do you mind if I make a couple of grammar corrections? (As in, do you want me to do them, or to tell you them?)
20:34:44gevaertsr28962 shouldn't be relevant for that
20:34:56AlexP(very minor)
20:35:11BuschelAlexP: well, as some sport accessory company says -> Just Do It!
20:35:22AlexPk :)
20:35:24CIA-7r28978 build result: All green
20:36:48AlexPBuschel: Not even grammar correction actually, just a very slight change :)
20:37:06BuschelI am curious ;)
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20:41:53max131well, for me r28834 did start file system corruptions, and after r28925 file system corruptions didn't happen that frequent anymore
20:42:25max131r28962 seems to have solved that issue for me
20:43:12max131i not only had file system corruptions on the uSD, but even on the internal storage ...
20:43:42gevaertsr28962 didn't touch any code that's actually compiled for the fuze
20:44:10max131so maybe my analysis is plain wrong, but if so, what was going on then? I'm just trying to understand.
20:44:24CIA-7New commit by 03alex (r28979): Manual: Very slight alteration to the mp3 encoder plugin entry.
20:45:08 Quit Mystery_Keeper (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
20:46:42gevaertsr28834 and r28925 seem to be likely candidates for what you're seeing. I don't see anything after r28925 that I would expect to have any influence on fuze storage
20:47:07CIA-7r28979 build result: All green
20:47:11max131are there maybe other people having a fuzev1 which do see occasional file system corruptions?
20:47:19gevaertsHow sure are you that you still had corruption after r28925?
20:47:42BuschelAlexP: that was really minor ;)
20:47:53max131for me, they especially occur when transferring large volumes of files to the fuze
20:48:01AlexPBuschel: I did say it was :)
20:48:04Buschelwill be off for a while
20:48:11 Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.13/20101203075014])
20:49:03max131i'm very sure on this analysis, although that happened only once
20:49:35max131that finally got me back to irc, and do a more frequent follow up on the progress of rockbox
20:49:56gevaertsWhat you saw couldn't be explained by filesystem corruption that was there before?
20:50:47max131hmm, maybe, although i don't fully understand your question
20:50:50gevaertsBecause if you still saw actual corruption *after* r28925, I'm pretty sure it's still there with r28979
20:51:42 Quit balintx (Remote host closed the connection)
20:51:49max131well, then i was cheer lucky in my stress tests of past days ;-)
20:51:49gevaertsI mean that if the FAT and directory structure aren't fully clean, writing a new file may not have the expected effect, i.e. it may overwrite blocks that should belong to another file or things like that
20:54:48max131i actually do run a checkdisk from within microsoft windows in order to get rid of the corruption, and i do get FOUND.000 folders in the root of the filesystem
20:55:25max131maybe that doesn't do a rigid cleanup, and i'd better format the fuze from within the original firmware
20:56:06gevaertsFormatting is always certain. Chkdsk should be fairly thorough and usually works well though
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20:59:23max131yeah, although my fuze has the oddity of the OF no being capable of scanning the filesystems anymore
20:59:42max131but i don't mind too much as i'm a pretty happy rockbox user
21:00
21:00:45max131thanks for your support gevaerts, i'll keep on sharing my experiences with the community!
21:01:03gevaertsOK, I've now checked again, and there really haven't been *any* changes since r28925 that can have any effect on USB or storage behaviour on the fuze
21:01:42 Quit Rob2222 (Quit: Rob2222)
21:01:57max131so probably the format of the fuze did solve the issues in the filesystem on my fuze
21:02:33gevaertsThat would be my guess
21:03:57max131so i also guess it doesn't make any sense to install r28834 to try and see if it could have caused file system corruptions?
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21:09:33gevaertsThat might make sense. I mean, if you saw fewer problems after r28925, it's possible that r28834 did cause problems and r28925 fixed that although there were some residual problems caused by earlier corruption
21:09:49gevaertsIf you test r28834 again and immediately see corruption, things are clear
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21:13:00max131i'm not so fond of doing that test right now, as i've got +12GB of data on the uSD, and it takes an awesome long time to copy them over
21:13:35max131ah, wait i think i must have some smaller, spare uSD some place
21:13:36gevaertsIndeed :)
21:13:48gevaertsA different card may well give different results
21:14:03gevaertsAnyway, I think we can be fairly confident even without more tests
21:14:37max131so i won't run that test and save us a lot of time ;-)
21:14:56gevaertsGood plan :)
21:15:01max131okidoki, thanks for your time
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21:15:51max131hehe, two flemish guys rockboxing in English, funny
21:16:00gevaerts:)
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22:21:38*[Saint] drops in the channel that he has a Fuze v1 that wo't mount under RB at all.
22:21:45[Saint]*won't
22:22:09[Saint]ah, he left.
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22:26:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:26:38Buschel[Saint]: any further tests regarding your LCD observations (tearing when boosted)?
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22:39:57 Join lc0806607 [0] (~lc@cpe-24-93-30-86.rochester.res.rr.com)
22:40:45lc0806607Hey guys, how goes?
22:42:32lc0806607I was directed here to ask for a compiled version of the WPS Editor for Windows
22:42:52lc0806607I'm looking to create a WPS and Theme for the MPIO HD300 that is more similar to the default interface
22:43:01 Quit bertrik (Quit: :tiuQ)
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22:48:15 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@87-206-240-131.dynamic.chello.pl)
22:49:07wodzlc0806607: hello, regarding clipped output I asked another HD300 user to test various files and he cannot reproduce clipped output
22:50:29wodzlc0806607: about theme editor http://www.alice-dsl.net/dominik.riebeling/rockbox/themeeditor/
22:51:02lc0806607ah hey man
22:51:05lc0806607its Synper311 :P
22:51:19lc0806607so I'm the only one with the clipped output?
22:51:25wodzdunno
22:51:25lc0806607did the HD300 go through hardware revisions maybe?
22:52:41lc0806607Thanks wodz, got the editor
22:52:54lc0806607who knows when I'll complete it, just want to tweak at it and make one eventually
22:53:01lc0806607contribute something :P
22:53:20lc0806607the clipping is across all files, all styles, and with all default options
22:53:22lc0806607i dont get it
22:53:37lc0806607on the MPIO firmware output at 30 is mostly clean, not 100% clean, but damned close
22:53:44wodzlc0806607: are you sure that sound settings aren't screwed up?
22:53:51lc0806607i usually use 25 or 26 on the MPIO firmware due to that
22:53:52lc0806607yeah
22:54:00lc0806607i defaulted all the options using the context menu
22:54:13lc0806607hold OK on the item, reset to default
22:54:14lc0806607for everything
22:54:37 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (~rmenes@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37)
22:55:05wodzI would rename .rockbox folder and reinstall it from .zip to be 100% sure. And run checkdisk on the drive mabe?
22:55:44lc0806607sure, i'll do that now
22:55:50lc0806607the Theme editor doesn't have HD300 target
22:56:05lc0806607should i use Iaudio M5 as target?
22:56:50wodzprobably lcd dimensions should be the same
22:58:44lc0806607okay
22:58:49lc0806607same levels of grayscale?
22:58:53lc08066074 right HD300 right?
22:58:57lc0806607wow
22:59:02lc0806607four for HD300
23:00
23:00:56wodzyes, both are 2bit greyscale
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23:03:25lc0806607aright, thanks man :)
23:03:40lc0806607aw, M5 doesn't have FM radio skin support
23:03:42lc0806607grr
23:03:45lc0806607oh well
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23:09:20wodzHmm battery benches of HD300 are quite interesting. There is quite big voltage drop on boot (~0.12V) which recovers within ~5 minutes. And this target has quite nice runtime. I've measured 16:40 and 17:10 h mp3 vbr ~160
23:10:18lc0806607amazing
23:10:24lc0806607my battery is... not so robust i don't think
23:10:32lc0806607do i just run the plugin or application from rockbox and let it sit?
23:12:43wodzThe standard procedure is to load playlist bigger than buffer size, set repeat all and let it play. Than you fire battery_bench plugin and let player suck all power from battery. After that you will have battery_bench.txt file in the root dir of the player with logs.
23:13:00lc0806607bigger than buffer size?
23:13:20wodzHD300 has 16MB of ram so anything bigger is ok
23:13:29lc0806607ah okay
23:13:38lc0806607i check that where?
23:13:42lc0806607that rockbox info section?
23:13:49wodzcheck what?
23:14:15lc0806607playlist size
23:15:08 Quit Rob2222 (Quit: Rob2222)
23:15:42wodzwell I just look what is the total size of files in dir used for tests
23:17:50wodzsleep() time
23:17:55 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
23:18:09lc0806607ah i get it now
23:18:13lc0806607so it has to use the HDD to read the files
23:18:15lc0806607herpderp
23:18:22lc0806607that is more realistic battery bench
23:20:28 Quit LambdaCalculus37 (Quit: Fwump)
23:21:01Torneit doesn't actually matte rhow long the playlist is, because our buffering scheme isn't smart enough to notice that the same track is being played repeatedly ;)
23:21:13lc0806607ahhh, okay
23:21:13Torneit just buffers the same thing multiple times up to the size of ram
23:21:20Torneand spins up the storage when that runs out to do the same thing again
23:21:30lc0806607so i just need an mp3 that is larger than 16mb
23:21:31lc0806607?
23:21:35Torneit's a bit silly but it's not a very common case so it's not much of a priority to ffix
23:21:39Torneno, anything is fine
23:21:43lc0806607oh, okay
23:21:46Torneif it's smaller han 16mb it will buffer it more than once :)
23:21:51lc0806607i want to do it right is all
23:21:51Tornebecause of repeat all
23:21:51lc0806607haha
23:22:10Tornethe buffering system just keeps buffering whatever playback says is next
23:22:18Torneit doesn't check what's already loaded :)
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23:35:29pixelmalc0806607: you could set the H100 for designing the radio skin then, you'll miss out on RTC tags then though
23:36:30pixelmaif the theme editor is the same as the target but if an M5 theme editor doesn't show the radio skins then it seems to respect those hardware differences
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