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#rockbox log for 2011-03-10

00:06:51 Join sirrozha [0] (sirrozha@89.23.217.205)
00:07:34sirrozhahi guys, i’ve got an iPod Classic 160 GB and it’s fat, is there an inctruction how to get a rockbox? thx
00:09:16bluebroth3rsirrozha: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodClassicPort
00:10:37 Quit domonoky (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:11:07sirrozhathank you
00:11:23 Quit pamaury (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:13:07 Quit evilnick_B (Quit: Page closed)
00:13:13sirrozhai’ve read that already, everything seems to be messy, so I don’t understand clearly if I should do that. anybody here dot rockbox on 160Gb classic?
00:15:07sideralgevaerts: Anyway, the reason I was asking was that I'm playing with an fsck plugin
00:15:20gevaertssideral: ah, fun
00:15:31sideralderived from dosfstools, which went GPL3 three years ago
00:15:51gevaertsRight. That's more and more of an issue every week
00:16:07gevaertsI'd say we need to discuss this again at devcon
00:16:24sideralBut maybe I should just switch to NetBSD's fsck_msdos before I even get to compiling it :)
00:16:49gevaertsOr dosbox+chkdsk :)
00:17:02*gevaerts always tries to find the best solution
00:17:19sideralDoes the latest DOS support FAT32?
00:17:28gevaertsno idea
00:17:51sideral:)
00:18:28*gevaerts has never been much of a DOS user
00:18:50B4gderwe currently have two devcon dates where all currently signed up people can
00:19:19sideralMe neither, but my old Atari ST used an MS-DOS-like filesystem as well
00:19:30gevaertsYes, but not nearly enough names yet I'd say
00:19:56B4gderright
00:23:11 Join saratoga [0] (600afc5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.96.10.252.95)
00:23:27 Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:24:27sideralHi saratoga, could you have a look at FS #11891 (MP3 gap killer)? I remember you having a strong opinion on whether MP3 gap skipping should be optional or not... I'd like to resolve this to make this patch fit for eventual inclusion
00:29:12 Join bluefoxx [0] (fuzzylomba@S0106485b3917092d.vs.shawcable.net)
00:29:29 Quit ender` (Quit: The likelihood of Perl being involved in a system is directly proportional to the length of time the system has been in maintenance.)
00:29:41saratogasideral: the arguments over this patch in IRC and the tracker have convinced me that Buschel is probably the only one here who really understands exactly how this works, so I think that expecting users to make an informed decision about it is insane
00:30:51sideralsaratoga: Hmm... users can decide between "I don't wanna lose audio under any circumstance −− disable" and "I don't want avoidable gaps −− enable"
00:31:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:31:22sideralThere is a very direct effect that users experience.
00:31:30saratogathey're introducing error either way though, and if you don't understand why, you can't make an informed decision about which is better for your needs
00:32:10sideral??? sure I can, even as a total novice
00:32:38sideralit's a tradeoff between two bad things. they aren't equally bad for gevaerts and me, for example
00:33:37saratogai am unconvinced
00:34:08 Quit DerPapst (Quit: Leaving.)
00:34:19saratogathe fact that the last time we brought this up involved me arguing about how the filterbank worked for more then an hour does not fill me with confidence that regular users will understand
00:34:58sideralI think it's a useful feature for some, even without understanding anything about MP3 encoding works, which is why this should be an option.
00:35:17sideralThe effect is very noticable, and that's what users can use to base their decision on
00:36:03saratogathats an equally strong argument for having it set to "always on" with no run time option though
00:36:21gevaertsHow?
00:36:24sideralI don't think so.
00:36:33gevaertsIf the effect is noticeable, it's noticeable both ways
00:36:49saratogayes but in the negative it would be noticable because the gap is present
00:36:57saratogaand the gap is an error right?
00:37:02gevaertsno
00:37:05gevaertsIt *can* be
00:37:14saratogaif this is off, it has to be
00:37:33saratogayou need gapless info to get the gap length right
00:37:39saratogaso without it, you're going to have an error
00:38:15sideralthere's always some small error, yes. but it's preferable to some to cutting a bit of audio
00:38:29 Join enthdegree [0] (~enthdegre@cpe-024-211-171-023.nc.res.rr.com)
00:38:32sideralwhich I think we must respect
00:38:42enthdegreeI agree.
00:38:43saratogai'm not sure i really agree with that
00:38:56saratogahow much real audio, and at what intensity would you be losing?
00:39:17saratogawouldn't it have to be around -96 dB down? e.g. below the noise floor of all rockbox devices?
00:40:42gevaertsThat's still audio
00:40:47sideralsaratoga: That I can't answer. But from Buschel's comments I gather that it can be noticable because it's hard to define the threshold _exactly_ right. It might even depend on the particular track
00:40:47kugelB4gder: I see no page to sign up
00:41:30saratogagevaerts: no thats theory, its not audio until someone does an ABX test or similar and shows that they can hear it
00:41:49kugelwhere is the devcon 2011 page?
00:42:02gevaertskugel: see the email
00:42:20sideralsaratoga: I understand that if you set the threshold this low, you may still get some noticable piece of silence that you don't want when the feature is enabled
00:42:37kugelwhy don't we have a wiki page as every year?
00:43:03*gevaerts still doesn't see why fixing those broken files is not an option
00:43:39kugelI suspect this page, only publizied via ml is surprising/unseen for many
00:43:45sideralgevaerts: Because you may not have access to the source. For example, I have purchased misencoded MP3s at Amazon
00:44:00gevaertssideral: adding a tag does not require that source
00:44:19gevaertsAnd that's *all* you need
00:44:22Lloreansideral: The tag can be added with the same logic you'd be applying realtime, couldn't it?
00:44:27sideralI see what you mean
00:44:34kugelI would certainly prefer early june, my internship is starting mid/late june
00:44:41saratogaas I said the last time we argued about this, unless you have access to the lossless source (in which case this whole problem is moot), then fixing the tags is not a good solution since it will generate files with gapless tags that probably do not have the exact right number of samples
00:45:15Lloreansaratoga: In what way is "tags that aren't entirely accurate" worse than dropping the same data without tags telling you to?
00:45:16sideralBut I'd strongly prefer an option that does this in real time, purely for convenience.
00:45:25saratogahttp://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20110211#22:13:39
00:45:30gevaertssaratoga: if the detection is good enough to force on everybody without an option, it's *also* good enough for a tag
00:45:42saratogano its not because it misleads the user
00:45:49gevaertsYou can't have it both ways
00:45:51saratogaif you know theres no gapless info, you know theres something wrong
00:46:05saratogaif you have a made up gapless tag, you have *no idea* what happened to the file
00:46:37LloreanWouldn't it be an explicit tool?
00:46:43LloreanIs this "users may forget they added the tag"?
00:47:04saratogaor share them with others
00:47:23saratogaif i download a file off amazonmp3 i'd like to know that the gapless tags aren't estimated
00:47:49gevaertsBut when you listen to it, you don't care?
00:48:05saratogawhat do you mean?
00:48:35gevaertsYou're claiming that the detection is good enough to be used unconditionally
00:48:48saratogayes
00:48:51gevaertsWhich implies it's good enough to *never* be noticeable
00:48:54saratogano
00:49:11gevaertsThen how can it be good enough to be used unconditionally?
00:49:14saratogafirst of all, noticable?
00:49:18saratogawithout access to the lossless source, it would of course be impossible for me to determine if the file is incorrect
00:49:25saratogaso what is there for me to notice in the amazon case
00:49:40sideralI think asking users to jump through hoops when we can do it on the fly is not the right way. With this argument, we'd have to eliminate all kinds of audio processing
00:50:29saratogayou can only determine audibility by comparison to lossless
00:50:38gevaertsIf you can guarantee that the code will *never* cause anyone to notice that his files are now not playing back as intended, then it can be enabled unconditionally. If not, you're *deliberately* crippling someone's audio playback
00:51:30saratogawhat i am claiming is that essentially everyone who has argued with me here is completely unqualified to determine the correct setting for that switch on a per file basis, and so there should be no such switch
00:52:21gevaertsRight. I'm not saying there should be a switch
00:52:33kugelwe also have embedded aa, where you could also argue to "fix" the file with an external tool
00:52:41saratogawith regards to errors, I think its extremely unlikely anyone will notice them
00:52:42gevaertsI'm only saying that if there is code to decide what I hear, it should not be unconditional
00:52:48kugelof course this gap skip thing is just as well solely for user convinience
00:53:20saratogathats a dumb argument though since by that logic everything should be configurable
00:53:29saratogathe DSP engine makes thousands of assumptions
00:53:41saratogawhy not let the user pick all of them!
00:53:55saratogabecause only options where the user is informed enough to pick better then the computer should exist
00:54:13sideralor where it's just a matter of preference
00:54:17saratogaand this is not one of those times as evidenced by the endless arguments and continued misconceptions here and in the previous IRC logs
00:54:34saratogapreference in audio is just another word for ignorance
00:54:48saratogapeople prefer something when they don't know which is actually better
00:55:16Lloreansaratoga: Do we really have features that throw away audio data, cannot be disabled, and aren't simply a part of the actual codec spec/definition?
00:55:42saratogapretty much every DSP operation alters the energy content of a waveform, some a lot more then errors here would
00:56:02saratogahell in some cases we even have different algorithms with different trade offs in rockbox
00:56:24saratogawould you prefer to let the user decide on which mp3 filterbank is used (once I get the new one finished)?
00:56:30kugeldsp can be disabled
00:56:33gevaertsHow many of those DSP assumptions are there *explicitely* to fix *broken* files?
00:57:34kugelI would like to see this patch in, with or without option (but I would prefer the non-option way)
00:57:51saratoganot so much broken (since the spec doesn't mention gapless), but maybe inexact?
00:58:00gevaertsSame thing
00:58:16gevaertsThey are broken since all decent encoders support adding tags
00:58:37saratogaIMO if the spec doesn't say what to do, its ok for us to pick the least stupid option
00:58:53 Quit robin0800 (Quit: Leaving)
00:59:19saratogai mean this whole argument is so ridiculous just because we're talking about time scales that don't even really have physical meaning to the codec
00:59:23gevaertsRight. And that is to not risk breaking people's audio unconditionally
00:59:27 Part toffe82_
00:59:37saratogawhat is accuracy supposed to mean when the error in question is less then an instant
01:00
01:00:07saratogahonestly i'm not even convinced you'd have a situation where this would break a file
01:00:11saratogaalthough i suppose it depends on how good your definition of "break" is
01:00:18sideralsaratoga: this less than an instant is clearly audible when you turn the feature off
01:00:30saratogaits only audiable though because of the discontinuity!
01:00:33saratogayou can't hear the gap
01:00:42saratogayou hear the jump from 0 amplitude to >0 amplitude
01:00:43sideralyes you can
01:00:53gevaertsYou are claiming that the discontinuity is *always* unintentional
01:01:03gevaertsProve it
01:01:05saratogahuh
01:01:29sideralmy impression is that there's an audible gap
01:01:39sideralthat is elided by this feature
01:01:59kugelI also think that discontinuity within such a tiny time frame and at the very beginning or end of a song is always unintentional
01:02:18 Join robin0800 [0] (~robin0800@cpc2-brig8-0-0-cust964.3-3.cable.virginmedia.com)
01:02:50kugelI want to see a song author that says "this tiny gap which sounds bad in track transitions make my song unique!"
01:02:51saratogasideral: you can't hear a gap of a couple milliseconds, you hear the fourier components of the square wave generated when you go from >0, to 0, and then >0 in a couple samples
01:03:07saratogaif you smoothed the transition you'd never hear anything
01:03:19saratogaeven though the lenght would be wrong
01:03:45gevaertsIf you can't hear it, what does this feature do?
01:03:47sideralmaybe
01:04:00saratogagevaerts: I think you misunderstand
01:04:02 Quit rasher (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:04:05gevaertsEither you're lying, or you're hiding behind technicalities
01:04:30kugelyou don't hear the gap of silence, you hear what fourier does with that gap
01:05:05sideralgevaerts: saratoga claims you hear a click rather than a gap.
01:05:13gevaertsIs that relevant?
01:05:18sideralanyway, the feature elides it
01:05:19saratogagevaerts: this is the same idea you argued about last time where you could have the right number of samples but still hear a gap if the amplitude wasn't continuous
01:05:56saratogawell its relevant because it means that its very hard to hear when this patch gets it wrong
01:06:08gevaertsHow is that?
01:06:31saratogabecause in the wrong case you either make things no worse (take too little, leave the gap), or take too much (delete the gap and introduce an inaudible loss of a millisecond or so of audio)
01:06:48kugelif the last couple of frames/samples are all silent that you don't hear the difference because there's no discontinuity
01:07:35saratogawhich is why this is such an insane argument
01:08:04gevaertsRight. You're claiming again that a milisecond difference doesn't matter if *you* don't want it to (without *any* argument), but it *does* matter if you want it to
01:08:06saratogai'm not even convinced you could ABX this in a lab with custom designed samples, and we're arguing about real music on low quality mp3 files from 1998!
01:08:13gevaertsWhich is ridiculous
01:08:34gevaerts*fix* *the* *files* *then*
01:08:46sideralsaratoga: Even if you manage to convince gevaerts and Buschel, politically it would be wise to have a knob (or even a dial to define the threshold) so that people can experiment with their own expectations
01:09:06saratogaugh no
01:09:28saratogajust set it to be the 17 most significant bit
01:09:34saratoga17th
01:10:11sideralsaratoga: Are you convinced that kills all the relevant gaps? The patch contributor doesn't seem to be...
01:10:27saratogano it won't, if you want to do that you'd need a real gapkiller
01:10:31saratogaone that tries to remove all silence
01:10:35saratogathis is much less ambitious
01:10:36gevaertsOf course it does! The feature is perfect!
01:10:45sideralno, that's not what I meant with relevant
01:10:57saratogaah i see
01:11:00sideralI meant only those MP3 encoder/decoder delays
01:11:35saratogai think its impossible to always get it exactly right for the reason buschel mentioned: the loss of time resolution in the FIR filter, but i think you're unlikely to do much better by tweaking the thresholds
01:12:06sideralthe OP thinks otherwise
01:12:18saratogawhat are his thresholds?
01:13:03saratogamost generally, I think the idea of getting it "exactly right" doesn't really make sense when you're talking about bits of time less then the impulse response of your filter
01:13:13 Join t0rc [0] (~t0rc@unaffiliated/t0rc/x-5233201)
01:13:39sideralThere is a 5000000 in the code, but I think it doesn't correspond to PCM values. I don't understand the code enough to tell
01:14:50saratogaisn't that pretty high?
01:14:53sideralHe says that the native 16-bit threshold corresponds to 491520 in his scale
01:15:07saratogaoh
01:15:17sideralwhich is an order of magnitude lower
01:15:29sideralbut I don't grok what the scale is
01:15:48 Quit robin0800 (Quit: Leaving)
01:16:13saratogai'm not 100% sure that makes sense to me (shouldn't he be using the same PCM format as the DSP engine???), but if so that would mean hes clipping way above the noise floor
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01:17:34sideralHe seems to think that he needs to clip some near-silence to cut out the waveforms building up towards the first real sample
01:17:36 Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
01:17:58sideralIt could well be that he's cutting too much. He says he chose the value rather arbitrarily
01:18:22saratogayeah i think that might cut too much by quite a lot
01:18:29sideralso that it works for his files
01:18:32saratogabut i guess he picked that because it sounded best?
01:19:21sideralguess so. but some fine tuning might still be necessary. anyway, this doesn't appear to be an exact science, giving weight to gevaerts' point
01:20:18saratogai remember doing this with WMA where i'd plott he waveforms from rockbox vs. the gapless MS decoder and you'd see a slow ring up of a bunch of samples before the audio started, i guess the problem here is that he needs to avoid detecting that
01:20:58sideralyep
01:21:09saratogawell it depends how this is going to work, if we're really going to set it at some rather high threshold and lose substantial numbers of samples, then maybe
01:21:52saratogai prefer to have a low threshold ( 0 from CD audio) so that we're sure to (never?) take too much
01:22:41sideralI understand the sentiment, but if that doesn't elide the gaps, it would be rather useless
01:22:58saratogatrue
01:23:16 Join milk [0] (~milk@94-193-93-226.zone7.bethere.co.uk)
01:23:29saratogathinking about this more, i guess if you want to configure the threshold like you suggested before, that might make sense if people are going to potentially set very high gaps
01:23:51saratogai wonder though if just playing it safe and accepting that they'll probably be gaps is the best way to go
01:24:16sideralyou mean the status quo?
01:24:23saratogawell not exactly
01:24:30saratogamuch smaller gaps, and probably sometimes no gaps
01:24:37saratogaso a little better
01:24:38sideralah, OK
01:24:56saratogathats probably my personal preference, not sure if I have a good technical arguement for it
01:25:25sideralbut you're not opposed to making this configurable / tunable any longer?
01:25:28saratogai guess gevaerts suggestion of using something like itunes to add gapless info would also work if people wanted to guess (i think we read itunes info?)
01:26:13gevaertsI seem to remember someone adding that
01:26:36saratogawe should never expose things like how the filterbank padding is handled to users, but thresholds are probably easier to use correctly
01:26:56saratogaalthough i wonder in this case if it should be a generic DSP option for all codecs
01:27:08saratogaif you're going to let the user fine tune it, why does it have to be MP3 only . . .
01:27:25sideralbecause it addresses an MP3-specific deficiency?
01:27:38sideralusing MP3-specific info
01:27:43pixelmaI believe markun added that but I'm not sure if it was enabled for MP3 (for some reason I believe it's currently AAC only but I could be wrong)
01:27:48sideralsuch as #samples / frame
01:27:55gevaertsThere's the current technical limitation that the codec is the only bit that knows how near the track boundaries it is
01:27:59saratogaWMA also has this problem
01:28:20gevaertsr22872 "add gapless support for MP3 files encoded with iTunes"
01:28:37saratogatrue, but if the user is expecting the gap to be killed with enough tweaking, they may actually want to remove samples past the frame boundary
01:28:57pixelmaah, ok. Maybe it's even the other way round
01:29:54sideralI think making this more generic is a great idea, but I think you can make good use of the codec info, such as making an assumption on whether the silence is intentional or not based on how far into the track it reaches
01:30:24saratogadoes the DSP engine know if the current audio is from a gapless codec?
01:30:29 Quit MagusG (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
01:30:58gevaertsI doubt it
01:31:02siderallikely not. but we also don't want to elide too much silence from tracks w/o gapless info
01:31:17saratogathe buffering code does I believe, so maybe its not too hard to expose it
01:31:44sideralthat would be a separate generic gap killer feature, which is not what I'm after
01:31:59saratogai guess i don't mind having a user confirable threshold here, but it seems weird to make it mp3 only
01:32:09saratogai think most users will understand what its supposed to do
01:32:16gevaertsFor a generic implementation we probably want to export whether or not the codec is gapless (which, for mp3, also depends on the tags), how big a possible unintentional gap is, and where the boundaries are
01:32:33sideralright
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01:33:41gevaertsI'd guess the buffering code doesn't know *enough*. You don't want to kill gaps if there are lame tags I guess
01:33:51 Join sideral [0] (~sideral@213.165.85.248)
01:33:53saratogathe individual codecs of course have that info, so i guess at worst they could tell the buffering engine if its expected to have gaps
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01:34:04sideralI think we can easily make this more generic later on
01:34:17sideralI doesn't hurt to do it for MP3 only first
01:34:36sideralbut Llorean already commented that the feature's name should be more generic than "mp3 gap killer"
01:35:03saratoga"remove mp3 silence"
01:35:35saratogaor i guess "mp3 silence removal threshold"
01:35:38saratogahow long can they be?
01:36:05sideralhe proposed something along the lines of "attempt gapless playback", without the codec name to be generic
01:36:19saratogai don't think we should say gapless
01:36:29saratogaits just a threshold we're setting right?
01:37:00saratogaso 'mp3 silence threshold', and (-100dB, 90dB ...)
01:37:25sideralthe feature has to be discoverable for users, so mentioning gapless playback would be good
01:37:42saratogawell ideally they don't think they need it to get gapless playback :)
01:38:05saratogaremember this is like 1 mp3 in a hundreds or thousands that needs this
01:38:08sideral"threshold for best-effort gap elision" :P
01:38:30saratogai'd hate for users to think we don't do lame gapless tags because of this setting
01:38:50sideralI'll think about this some more offline. Need to go to bed now.
01:38:56sideralThanks for the discussion saratoga!
01:39:10saratogayeah i'm sick and need to sleep
01:39:27sideralget well soon!
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02:31:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:45:08[Saint]JdGordon: kugel: Any idea how this was done? http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,14177.msg178749.html#msg178749
02:45:13 Join avacore [0] (~avacore@1008ds1-rdo.0.fullrate.dk)
02:45:20[Saint]specifically the "swiping for next/prev"
02:46:00[Saint]I have no idea how to do that with a theme...is it something about RaaA I've just failed to notice?
02:47:08JdGordoni highly doubt that works
02:47:16JdGordonmore likely he swiped over the next button
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02:47:51[Saint]yeah, I read it and thought..."wow, we can do that!?!"
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04:22:27edboyer93rockbox isn't detecting my microsd card but the OF does, what could be causing this?
04:27:30edboyer93oh, i guess I have to install a new build since I am using 3.7.1. To install a new build can i just extract the new one over the one that is already installed?
04:31:08krazykityes
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04:31:20krazykitit might help to know what device you're using
04:32:18edboyer93clip+, the only reason I am not using 3.8 is because of that bug where the database gets stuck
04:32:57edboyer93and corrupts the memory
04:34:51edboyer93I am going to try the current build i guess\
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04:53:43edboyer93I installed the current build and the memory corrupting issue is gone and my microsd card is being shown.
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06:34:01[Saint]JdGordon: Can I put "%?Tl(identifier, timeout)<condition true|false> in a viewport that isn't linked with a touch area identifier...for example, to fire multiple things in different viewports, linked to the one viewport?
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06:34:19[Saint]Let me know if I need to explain that more, that sounds pretty crazy even in my head.
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06:34:36JdGordonof course you can
06:34:51JdGordonall identifiers are global
06:35:02[Saint]then, I shouldn't need vars to fix this theme at all...and I can't believe I didn't see it.
06:35:22JdGordonI tihnk you're wrong :)
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06:41:23[Saint]can I do "%?C<%Vd(a)%?Tl(identifier, timeout)<|%Vd(b)>|%Vd(c)%?Tl(identifier, timeout)<|%Vd(d)>>" ?
06:42:04[Saint]as, iiuc....that should fix the issue with viewports being displayed over other viewports,.
06:42:32JdGordonprobably
06:42:40JdGordoni have no idea what thats supposed to do though :)
06:42:45JdGordonECANTREADSKINCODE
06:44:31[Saint]the popup tab is "identifier" here, and that fires the popup viewport when it's true...seeing as the check to see if a specific touch area was fired...I figured, can't we check if that identifier is true elsewhere, and use that as a condition?
06:44:48[Saint]firing the track info viewports only when it's false would fix this.
06:45:31JdGordonyeah but that wont really work
06:45:33[Saint]It works in my head ;)
06:45:51[Saint]why won't it work?
06:45:56JdGordonlets say your timeout is 15s... you have to keep checking all the buttons seperately to make sure it doesnt disappear
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06:48:36[Saint]I can't figure out why the slider isn't drawn though.
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06:49:00[Saint]that sucks...I can't see anything wrong with that. When the viewport fires, it should "just work".
06:49:42[Saint]It's not doing anything fancy...it's just a viewport with a volumebar and a slider. neither the bar or the slider is drawn.
06:49:53JdGordonthe viewport image is breaking it
06:50:08JdGordonit gets redrawn every viewport update
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06:50:58[Saint]Hmmm....I think I might have just figured out a *real* hack way to do it.
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06:51:54[Saint](using the entire popup viewport as the volume slider, and using the background param)
06:52:06JdGordonthats what i said to do 2 days ago!
06:52:30[Saint]it's too ugly...it should "just work" the way I coded it.
06:52:47[Saint]despite what you might think, I don't *like* ugly hacks in my themes ;)
06:53:05JdGordonwhy would you think I think you do?
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06:53:58[Saint]You've commented on some of my solutions for certain things before now.
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06:57:51S_a_i_n_tThe only reason it's ugly is because that means the volume slider needs to be the exact dimensions of the popup viewport...which is something I don't actually want.
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06:58:47S_a_i_n_tI can (or should be able to) keep the look as it is now, but have the actual volume area be bigger than the image portrays it to be...*that*s the part I think is a bit of a hack.
06:59:25JdGordonpardon?
06:59:39JdGordonoh the slider will be the whole width?
06:59:51S_a_i_n_tyes...it's the only way I can do it.
07:00
07:00:07S_a_i_n_tbut I can do the image so it doesn't *look* like it is.
07:00:08JdGordonyou could add two filler images on the sides to not do that
07:00:20S_a_i_n_tHmmm...yeah, I could.
07:01:11S_a_i_n_tI suppose I could just load 4 filler images, top bottom and sides instead of a backdrop.
07:01:21S_a_i_n_tthat'd work no?
07:02:02JdGordonsure
07:02:47S_a_i_n_tright...sweet. One problem down then. Just the conditional viewport switching to go. I'll let you know if I run into trouble there.
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07:12:22S_a_i_n_tJdGordon: Actually...I think I can do it with a transparent panel in the backdrop image.
07:12:40JdGordonmaybe....
07:12:48JdGordonthat uises more skin buffer thouhg
07:12:51S_a_i_n_tso that way it won't matter if it'd drawn over the slider, you'll still see it. Seems more sensible than splitting the image.
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07:40:07S_a_i_n_tJdGordon: is %pv(10,31,178,18,VOLUMEBAR-240x320x16.bmp,backdrop,K,slider,L) correct if I want the both of them?
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07:57:50S_a_i_n_tAlexP: Zagor: kugel_: JdGordon: pixelma: Llorean:
07:58:53S_a_i_n_tplay/pause/stop in the middle, prev/rewind next/fastforward to the left and right of it respectively....shuffle on the left and repeat on the right, or vice versa , repeat on the left and shuffle on the right?
07:59:47S_a_i_n_trepeat far left and shuffle far right....just because it's alphabetical? ;)
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08:00:42S_a_i_n_tshuffle is used more often, more people are right handed...it would be more accessable on the far left and repeat on the far right...for ergonomics?
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08:01:23*S_a_i_n_t dislikes issues like this, so opts to let others decide.
08:01:23LloreanI would think being right handed what's on the right is more accessible (to your right thumb)?
08:01:32S_a_i_n_tgevaerts: Torne: ^
08:01:36LloreanI hold my gadget in my primary hand if it's just something like track skipping / volume adjust / whatever
08:02:01LloreanIn fact, what I'd do is have the shuffle/repeat option on the left, since I almost never use them, then back/pause/forward on the right so they're easier to use onehanded
08:02:12S_a_i_n_tLlorean: my right thumb reaches the left side of my handset more easily.
08:02:20LloreanSince skip-forward is probably the most-pressed (for me) I'd want it at the edge of the screen and easy to use with my primary thumb
08:02:25LloreanI'm a lefty, so that can't happen, but... y'know.
08:02:26S_a_i_n_tthe left themb the right side more easily in turn.
08:02:34S_a_i_n_t*thumb
08:02:51LloreanI find reaching across the handset makes it more likely to register accidental presses, and I can reach the near side quite easily
08:03:01LloreanThen again, my screen seems *really* sensitive
08:03:39S_a_i_n_tLlorean: It was decided (I think) that play/pause/stop should be central, and prev/rewind to the left, and next/fastforward to the right.
08:03:45S_a_i_n_tas this is "sane ordering".
08:04:02LloreanYes, between those three, that makes sense
08:04:03S_a_i_n_tthe question left is, shuffle on the left repeat on the right...or vice versa.
08:04:08LloreanBut I don't see why those three need to be in the center of the screen
08:04:16LloreanYou could has (repeat)(shuffle)(prev)(pause)(next)
08:04:19Llorean*have
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08:05:02S_a_i_n_tHmmm...it does kinda *look* better with play/pause/stop central.
08:05:08S_a_i_n_tat least in portrait mode.
08:05:18LloreanThat's subjective though, anyway
08:05:54S_a_i_n_t'tis indeed.
08:05:56LloreanI actually have several gadgets that have (play/pause)(prev)(next) even
08:06:15S_a_i_n_ttouch gadgets?
08:06:18LloreanSo I wouldn't rule that play/pause needs to be between the two, if you can improve ease of use for the more common actions by putting it elsewhere
08:06:44S_a_i_n_tthe reason why I was asked to change it is apparently we're the only ones that have this touch layout.
08:06:54LloreanS_a_i_n_t: Physical buttons on MP3 players, so it's the same situation - music controls on a device.
08:07:30S_a_i_n_tHmmm. I dislike contentious issues. especially with UI stuff.
08:07:40LloreanPersonally I'd want "prev" and "next" to be the easiest buttons to hit, followed by "play" followed by "shuffle" and "repeat"
08:07:46S_a_i_n_tI now have NO IDEA how to order the bottom panel.
08:08:16LloreanI'd honestly put the buttons at the *top* of the screen myself. Easier to press over all (for me)
08:08:25LloreanLess thumb angling.
08:08:41LloreanBut I'm just sayin'
08:09:06LloreanIt may be best to open up a wider discussion of how people use their touch devices. In the case of touchscreen devices, we're not just discussing how it looks but how people interact with it.
08:09:14LloreanIt's, essentially, "keymaps" for a screen.
08:09:31*Llorean would suggest starting something on the -dev mailing list as soon as possible.
08:10:03S_a_i_n_tI think I will follow the widget, and place play/pause/stop/ between next/prev.
08:10:36LloreanYeah, it makes sense to match the widget for now, especially.
08:10:38S_a_i_n_tthe question left is center it, or have it to left or right od the screen...and what to do with repeat and shuffle in turn.
08:11:48LloreanHonestly, I can see other reasons for a bit of separation between them, like a slightly larger gap between (shuffle)(repeat) (prev)(play)(next) since they affect playback order, rather than current playback state.
08:11:54LloreanBut again, that's just me.
08:12:00S_a_i_n_tprev/rew,play/pause/stop/next/ffwd,shuffle,repeat?
08:12:20S_a_i_n_tunless I get a screaming "NO!" very soon...I'll run with that.
08:12:48S_a_i_n_toops..."prev/rew,play/pause/stop,next/ffwd,shuffle,repeat?
08:14:15LloreanAnother advantage of "next" being at an edge of the screen is that you can do it by touch, say while driving (assuming you don't have the screen auto-offing, or can bring that up blind)
08:14:24*Llorean shrugs
08:14:27LloreanEither way, though
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08:22:18S_a_i_n_tbleargh! I forgot about volume.
08:22:44S_a_i_n_tok....right...I think I have it.
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08:24:22S_a_i_n_t prev/rew, play/pause/stop, next/ffwd, volume, shuffle, repeat
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08:26:51S_a_i_n_terrr...repeat, shuffle...probably, it looks better IMO.
08:26:55S_a_i_n_tdamn this is a hard one.
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08:35:13S_a_i_n_tok...this time...: volume, repeat, shuffle, prev/rew, play/pause/stop, next/ffwd
08:35:23S_a_i_n_tLlorean: ^
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09:25:52pixelmaS_a_i_n_t: I suspected the "swiping" was actually due to a fallback to grid mode
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09:56:47S_a_i_n_tJdGordon: Do you think it would be possible to get the skin engine to draw a nice bi-tonal gradient as the background param in the default (or any other) viewport?With that, and my work to remove the "hardcoded" theme element backdrops from the cabbie backdrop (the .sbs and .wps can use the same backdrop now), things like the progressbar background, volume, shuffle and repeat backgrounds, the titlebar etc. we could save a considerable amount of skin RAM
09:58:28S_a_i_n_t220x340 backdrop is ~220kb, and it's just a simple bitonal gradient...drawing this with the skin engine would probably be faster to load, and would save a lot of skin buffer.
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10:10:08dionoeakugel_: hum ... weird. For some reason it was giving me permission errors in the logs if I didn't include the permission changes.
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10:51:26S_a_i_n_tForum user masilod wants a ban (spambot)
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11:01:21JdGordS_a_i_n_t: yeah, I've thought about adding gradients to skins for a while... 6 things at a time though
11:01:41S_a_i_n_tyessum ;)
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11:23:53pixelmascorche, AlexP, soap: see what S_a_i_n_t said about forum user masilod - and a question about this anti-spam plugin. Since posts that are caught by it still show up in "Recent Posts" etc., is it a good ides to delete the posts manually or does it have some negative side effects for the akismet (handling)?
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11:51:50pondlifeAny other Gigabeat (F) owners - please could you have a look at http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12004 . It may be I have a hardware fault, or it may not.
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12:54:23S_a_i_n_tI made a font pack (~17mb total) with a bunch of fonts converted from DroidSans and DroidSans-Bold .ttf fonts (from Google Android) using convttf, these fonts range from 12pt to 50pt in 2pt increments and are available here: http://www.datafilehost.com/download-51b50235.html
12:54:25S_a_i_n_tThe link will stay active for 30 days after upload or the last download.
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13:05:59dionoeaa convttf plugin would even allow using ttf fonts natively! (ok, it's never going to happen but it would be neat)
13:07:39ZagorI actually implemented exactly that for work this week
13:08:25Zagorthat is, converting ttf to bitmap fonts when loaded. so the customer only ever handles ttf files.
13:08:38S_a_i_n_tOoooohhh ;)
13:08:50S_a_i_n_tSo, you think some of your work could be ported? ;)
13:09:29S_a_i_n_tIf the fonts are converted natively, there's no issues about distribution.
13:09:44Zagorwell it's mostly freetype code, and knowing how to deal with the kerning and offsets
13:11:06Zagorthe arm build of the freetype library is 660 KB...
13:11:24S_a_i_n_tIt would be truly awesome for RaaA to have the option of running a plugin after the first run (or on demand) to generate a fontset for the device from the .ttf files available on the device.
13:12:21Zagorwell, you need to know which size to use
13:12:46Zagoror make a bucketload of them :)
13:13:25S_a_i_n_tthe second option isn't so bad.
13:13:50Zagorit is for gnufont :)
13:13:57S_a_i_n_tDroidSans and DroidSans-Bold 12~50py fonts in 2pt increments comes out to ~17mb
13:14:11S_a_i_n_ts/py/pt/
13:14:27Zagorhow many glyphs is that?
13:14:50S_a_i_n_tdamn...I just closed the console.
13:15:01S_a_i_n_tum...~600 or so I think
13:15:59Zagorprobably the best option is to have a companion app that creates the fonts, rather than a plugin
13:16:41Zagoradding the freetype source in the rockbox build is no fun
13:16:55Zagorgsoc project!
13:17:09S_a_i_n_t:D
13:17:22S_a_i_n_tquick! to the gsoc wiki page!
13:17:37dionoeahehe
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13:50:03kugel_S_a_i_n_t: you could probably easily hack up a plugin on RaaA (not so easy on native targets that if the freetype lib is that huge)
13:50:52Zagoryes, it would be easy but we really don't want freetype in our build
13:51:40Zagorand rather than mucking with an external plugin, a separate app is a much saner option
13:52:31gevaertshm, does car adapter mode play nice with party mode?
13:52:36kugel_a separate app can't access rockbox' font folder on the internal memory
13:53:41kugel_so it'd require you to install the font pack as you lose the fonts on the internal memory once you have a font folder in /sdcard/rockbox
13:54:39JdGordongevaerts: i doubt it
13:55:05Lloreangevaerts: I'd guess party mode prevents car adapter mode (and I'd argue that maybe it should - if Car Adapter is accidentally on, and it's unplugged from power at a party, it probably shouldn't stop)
13:55:22LloreanWell, prevents car adapter mode from pausing/stopping
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13:59:30esgikeyhai
13:59:37esgikeyhello avarybody
13:59:58gevaertsLlorean: right. That's what I suspect. I won't recommend party mode on the forums then :)
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14:02:05kugel_I wonder if we could have "metaplugins" that just start other apps?
14:04:48kugel_Zagor: the %TOC% links in the wiki are "broken" again
14:05:13kugel_they add a /Main to the URL and hence force a full reload of the page
14:05:29kugel_IIRC we had this problem on the last wiki upgrade too
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14:08:32Zagorkugel: moving all fonts to external memory seems like a plus to me
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14:13:11Zagoryes I know about the link bug
14:13:54kugelokay
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14:39:48kugelS_a_i_n_t: making << || >> centered is not easy because the 6 icons can't really me made symmetrical
14:40:28kugelbut fwiw, I also find it easier to hit stuff at the left side of the screen with my right thumb
14:40:59Zagorsix icons? we only discussed five yesterday
14:41:34S_a_i_n_tI forgot volume
14:42:19S_a_i_n_tI have settled on "volume, repeat, shuffle, prev/rew, play/pause/stop, next/ffwd"
14:42:32Zagordo we have our own volume on raaa?
14:42:45S_a_i_n_tyep
14:42:54Zagorwhy?
14:43:18preglow_tried to ask that myself
14:43:25Bagdervolume is really pointless on screen
14:43:26 Nick preglow_ is now known as preglow (thomj@tvilling2.pvv.ntnu.no)
14:43:28S_a_i_n_tit's actually very cool, as you can use the system volume as the "max global volume", then use RaaA's much finer volume tuning.
14:43:43Zagorthat's cool=
14:43:43Zagor?
14:43:50ZagorI'd call it annoying
14:43:58preglowthe volume widget onscreen is more bother than anything else, i often inadvertently change it when pressing pause, and can't get it back to 0 db
14:44:03S_a_i_n_tuseful.
14:44:18Bagderwell, it's not useful if you think you can raise the volume there
14:44:31Bagderor hit it accidentally as preglow says
14:44:35Zagorvaguely useful in some corner cases, perhaps. not icon-on-the-frontpage useful.
14:44:56Zagorand definitely not customary in android apps
14:44:58preglowi don't see why rockbox should have its own volume when no other apps do
14:45:26Zagorme neither
14:45:58S_a_i_n_tthe system volume control is nowhere near as fine garained as RB's...which is something I find annoying personally.
14:46:06S_a_i_n_tquite big jumps.
14:46:06preglowbut rockbox people generally seem adverse as hell to give up on even redundant features, so i assume it'll stay :>
14:46:14S_a_i_n_t*grained
14:46:45preglowi think there is a way to adjust it in finer steps
14:47:34preglowi never required such finegrained control over it anyway
14:47:35S_a_i_n_tanyway, the volume icon also serves to open the volume slider popup, which gives a nice slider to control the volume with.
14:47:51S_a_i_n_tso no need to fight with the volume in settings, or on a tiny touch icon.
14:48:03preglowso you can't manipulate the icon directly now?
14:48:19ZagorS_a_i_n_t: except you only control half the volume
14:48:19S_a_i_n_tyes.
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14:48:51BagderI'm firmly against that on a default wps
14:48:51S_a_i_n_tinstead of using a tiny volume icon, the volume icon brings up a nice popup window.
14:49:00S_a_i_n_twhere the volume is adjusted on a slider.
14:49:12preglowbut yeah, two volume controls is nothing else than confusing no matter how it's done
14:49:13S_a_i_n_twhy?
14:49:24Bagderbecause it is mostly pointless
14:49:25ZagorI have volume +/- buttons. they work very nicely.
14:49:35S_a_i_n_tagainst it...sure....though I don;t know why, but *firmly*?
14:49:44Bagderfirmly, because I think default should be nice and clean
14:49:52preglowit's not readily apparent in any way that rockbox's own volume control is something else than what you'd expect from any other androiud app
14:49:54Bagdernot packed with silly things nobody needs
14:50:15S_a_i_n_twhat's unclean about a nice convenient popup volume window?
14:50:25Bagderand I say default, I can live with it being in custom things for those who really want it
14:50:32ZagorS_a_i_n_t: it's not volume! it's attenuation top top of the volume.
14:50:37Zagor*on top
14:50:44preglowall media players just use android's own media volume, why should rockbox be different? and how can we expect users to understand that it is?
14:51:06preglowrequiring reading of the manual for something as simple as the volume control is just stupid...
14:51:15S_a_i_n_tmeh...crying to me will hardly solve it.
14:51:22preglownot really crying to you
14:51:28preglowjust stating my opinion and hoping it's read
14:51:28S_a_i_n_twhile it's there, I will give facilities to use it in the themes.
14:51:34dionoea(all media players also use the native ui ...)
14:51:39Bagderwe're discussing, that's not the same as crying...
14:51:50S_a_i_n_tit's really kugel's say I guess.
14:52:01Bagderit's _our_ say
14:52:05preglowdionoea: naw, know of several that don't :>
14:52:09preglowdroidsound <3
14:52:19S_a_i_n_tyeah..."crying to me" is perhaps not so easily translated.
14:52:27S_a_i_n_tit's not meant to be so literal.
14:52:36preglowno biggie anyway
14:53:24*dionoea would love to have something like RaaL
14:53:41preglowhm?
14:53:47Zagorjust to clarify, I don't oppose it being in the code or some themes. I just don't think it should be in the default theme.
14:53:48dionoeajust an audio playback library
14:53:51S_a_i_n_tI remember it coming up many moons ago...and kugel mentioned then that several users had said they liked having the two volume controls...I've heard the same myself personally.
14:54:03S_a_i_n_tNow all of a sudden the opposite, so I don't know what to think.
14:54:06Zagordionoea: I'm working (slowly) on that. it's... messy.
14:54:12dionoeaoh. cool
14:54:34BagderS_a_i_n_t: it was never asked on the dev list for example, was it?
14:54:47kugelI don't see why we can't sell it as a feature but should copy existing apps' behavior instead
14:54:52preglowsome users is always bound to like some random feature, it's more a question of how we want rockbox do be, if you ask me
14:54:56preglowand i'd like more simplicity
14:54:58dionoeaI was thinking about an http interface to rockbox but that would only really make sense if the core features were exposes as a library.
14:54:59preglowit's getting a bit out of hand
14:55:00Zagorhaving the possibility is a good thing. having a confusing default is not.
14:55:02kugeland this more fine grained control is a feature for me
14:55:17dionoea(To use rockbox as a source for a home stereo system)
14:55:23S_a_i_n_tkugel: The seeming need to copy existing implementations annyos me somewhat too.
14:55:24kugelpreglow: rockbox consists of a hell lot of random features
14:55:28preglowkugel: quite
14:55:41dionoeas/exposes/exposed/
14:55:58S_a_i_n_tI also find the fine grained control a big bonus...but others seem to find the system volume sufficient, whereas I *really* don't.
14:55:59Zagorwe are discussing the default theme here, not available features in rockbox
14:57:11Zagorthe default theme is all about introducing new users
14:57:28S_a_i_n_tI also find it convenient that I can set Rockbox to a volume level, and have it remembered.
14:57:43Zagorthey will be suitably shocked by the amount of options anyway, without us forcing it on them
14:58:16preglowyou can still do that without it being on the wps
14:58:20preglownp
14:59:22kugelI don't desperately need it on the wps
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15:00:25kugelbut then we need an android specific wps because the other touchscreens (including maemo) don't have this feautre
15:00:31S_a_i_n_tI think the volume icon makes sense in the .sbs and the .wps...as we need to keep in mind we suport targets with no HW buttons.
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15:01:04Zagorkugel: n900 has volume buttons
15:01:20S_a_i_n_tso, the default theme having a icon that launches a volume popup is really necessary.
15:01:34*S_a_i_n_t is thinking tablets here
15:01:37kugelZagor: ah yes right. but it doesn't have the separate volume control
15:03:35ZagorS_a_i_n_t: have you seen any tablets without volume control yet?
15:03:47*kugel is mildly amused that clicking on the album art in the built-in media player (in CM) leads you to the current playlist
15:04:03kugelthat must be new, I can't remember it had that a few month ago
15:04:11Zagordoes anyone know an android phone without volume buttons?
15:04:24*kugel suspects they stole that feature from us! :)
15:04:49preglowdisappointingly, they didn't steal their eq from us :>
15:05:12kugelno surprise :)
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15:05:53preglowthey use some weird-ass configuration of shelving filters that can't sound too good
15:05:58preglowi've gotta install that stuff soon
15:06:10preglowjust need to figure out how to back shit up
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15:14:41pixelmaurgh, the volume control on my Android phone is way to coarse and even "1" is too loud with simple earphones in a quiet surrounding where "0" is mute. I like that Rockbox gives me finer control but I agree that controlling the maximum through the global volume and Rockbox being percentage (or what) of that confused me and then it's almost two fine grained
15:15:18pixelmamaybe it could somehow "sync" to the global volume and add a few extra steps between or so
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15:16:18Zagorthat's a pretty good idea. intercept the buttons (we can, can't we?) and add steps between the big android leaps
15:16:59S_a_i_n_tthat I could handle
15:18:08dionoeathat would probably we worse since media volume controlled outside rockbox when rockbox is running wouldn't have the same timesteps
15:18:29dionoeas/timesteps/dbsteps
15:19:00Zagordionoea: well it just means adjusting the volume outside rockbox does big steps while doing it inside rockbox does small steps
15:19:15dionoeaisn't that counter intuitive ?
15:19:40ZagorI guess it should be optional
15:20:03Zagorbut I don't think it's too confusing as long as we give good visual feedback
15:20:20Zagorthe same buttons do the same work, after all. just with higher resolution.
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15:23:16dionoeathat would really be weird
15:24:42S_a_i_n_tit would?
15:25:01S_a_i_n_tI'd really like to have the RB resolution on the HW buttons
15:25:35dionoeayeah but you'd probably have different resolution depending on the context
15:25:47dionoeain app / outside locked / unlocked
15:26:14S_a_i_n_thmmmm...yes.
15:26:26dionoeayou also have to note that the media stream volume is common to all media apps
15:27:08dionoeaso that would probably lead to unwanted behavior in case other media apps were running at the same time.
15:27:23dionoea(ok, that sounds unlikely but you never know)
15:27:27pixelmaare there still no forum admins or global mods available who could take care of the spam?
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15:52:50amiconnS_a_i_n_t: Calculated gradient wouldn't save skin ram, but only disk space - at the cost of additional code
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15:53:38amiconnThe reason is that the gradient is technically still a backdrop and has to be precalculated - otherwise we'd lose *a lot* of performance in all drawing routines
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16:06:11Zagordionoea: I don't see the problem really. we bump the android volume 1 step, and add 90% attenuation. then the next 9 steps we decrease 10% attenuation, then repeat.
16:06:31Zagorother media players would get the same volume, just not the higher resolution
16:08:11pixelmaeven if it's not completely "clean", I guess it's better than what there is now
16:11:13kugelZagor: the attenuation doesn
16:11:26kugel't give you values between the global volume steps
16:11:51Zagorno, we need to create such adjustments ourselves
16:12:05Zagorwhich might be a challenge, but is technically possible
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16:13:12kugelthere's also the issue that some parts (like fade on pause) mess with the volume
16:13:33Zagoronly temporarily, and only our internal volume. no problem.
16:13:46kugelI don't use fade on pause, but it'd be pretty horrid of that affects the OS global volume, no?
16:13:47Zagors/internal volume/attenuation/
16:14:10ZagorI agree, it must only use our attenuation
16:14:13kugelwe don't have the concept of multiple volumes in rockbox yet
16:14:16Zagorwhich it does
16:14:31Zagorit's just a "device driver" thing. no concept needed.
16:14:54kugelit does global_settings.volume++ :)
16:15:08Zagorwell, yes it needs a little more code obviously :)
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16:18:57n1simo, fade on pause should be done in dsp
16:19:15n1sexcept maybe on hwcodec targets
16:26:20amiconnOn hwcodec we could do it in the MAS stereo matrix (where stereo width is handled as well). This would need dB -> linear conversion
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16:34:16kugeln1s: dsp has latency
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16:50:21CIA-2New commit by 03thomasjfox (r29555): Don't call apps/ code from firmware/ ...
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16:53:17n1skugel: that doesn't matter much for a fade i think
16:53:56amiconnIt does because the fade needs to start (nearly) immediately when the user presses pause or stop
16:54:04kugelits multiple seconds
16:54:23CIA-2r29555 build result: 16 errors, 0 warnings (thomasjfox committed)
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16:57:50gevaertsthomasjfox: missing #ifdef?
16:58:48thomasjfoxI'm wondering about that because audio_stop() is callable and audio_pause() is not?
16:58:58thomasjfox(for the bootloader case)
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17:02:28gevaertsActually, why is handle_sleep_timer() in the bootloader?
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17:05:30thomasjfoxgevaerts: We could exclude it
17:06:55thomasjfoxgevaerts: handle_sleep_timer() has been recently created when I splitted handle_auto_poweroff() into a smaller function
17:08:48thomasjfoxI'll just ifdef the code inside handle_sleep_timer so I don't have to clutter the call site
17:09:11thomasjfox(like sys_poweroff() already does)
17:09:17gevaertsthomasjfox: audio_stop() comes from flash/bootbox/main.c for the bootloader build apparently
17:09:41gevaertsSo you should probably add a stub there
17:09:52gevaertsAnd then think about cleaning things up :)
17:10:41 Quit n1s (Quit: Lmnar)
17:11:09gevaertsOr add some ifdefs right away
17:11:12*gevaerts isn't sure
17:11:24thomasjfoxgevaerts: Isn't the ifdef at the beginning of handle_sleep_timer() cleaner than adding the dummy stuff? If we don't need that code, don't compile it :)
17:11:35gevaertsProbably, yes
17:11:39thomasjfoxI'll stick to that
17:13:14CIA-2New commit by 03thomasjfox (r29556): Don't compile handle_sleep_timer() code for the bootloader
17:14:36thomasjfoxkugel: btw: You're the man for committing AA support :)
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17:14:53exorbisthey i got a question
17:15:35exorbisti got a philips gogear raga 4gb will it support rockbox ?
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17:16:58CIA-2r29556 build result: All green
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18:23:59kugelthomasjfox: what? I recently committed several kinds of AA :-)
18:25:11gevaertskugel: you mean the Anti-Aliased Android App with Album Art?
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18:31:44thomasjfoxhahaha. I meant general AA support
18:32:01gevaertsYou mean all of them? :)
18:32:02thomasjfox(=anti-aliased fonts)
18:32:23kugelyea :-)
18:32:36thomasjfoxThough embedded album art is very nice, too
18:33:18thomasjfoxsorry, that should be embedded AA ;)
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18:50:26AlexPpixelma: I can't find that user, so I'm assuming they are already banned. I've removed all the posts using askimet, but as to your question about it, I don't know
18:51:07AlexPGiven the number of questions coming up about it, I think devcon would be a good time to nail down android things
18:51:19AlexPSpecifically default WPS stuff
18:51:40AlexPPersonally, I don't think volume should be on default WPS
18:52:02AlexPBut it is something we need to remember that it is quite different in many ways to a traditional target
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19:01:11bluebrotherIMO volume itself doesn't make much sense on Android since there's this media volume thing
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19:04:33 Join Stummi [0] (~Stummi@rockbox/developer/Stummi)
19:07:29AlexPbluebrother: Well, RB has more fine grained control, but I agree - have it as an option people can stick on a wps if they want, but not on the default
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19:27:26bluebrotherAlexP: it might be more fine grained, but you can't control it that fine grained on the touch screen. Except when using the menu :)
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19:27:59AlexPbluebrother: true, and I can't get it to go to full volume either
19:28:16AlexPbluebrother: But I think you can now make it pop up a bar which should be better
19:28:29bluebrothertrue
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19:32:49kugelAlexP: I agree, we should have a large talk about android and raaa in general at the devcon
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19:54:16pixelmathe volume "menu" on RaaA is weird too (at list on my android phone) - you scroll through it and it changes volume but there is no highlight of that as long as you don't see the initial setting or explicitly chose something
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19:56:32pixelma(that's what I remember wondering about but I'm not a 100% sure, need to look it up again)
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20:04:48B4gderand now we have only one devcon date where all currently signed up people can attend
20:05:29B4gder"about 24 hours left to submit your org's application for GSoC 2011"
20:07:08 Join pwl [0] (~959c4499@giant.haxx.se)
20:08:37pwlhi, I have encountered a little problem while partitioning iPod Nano 1G. Here is what I do: sudo mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/sdb2 results in mkfs.vfat: failed whilst writing FAT
20:09:22AlexPB4gder: Looks like the third then :)
20:09:41AlexP03/06 that is
20:09:43bluebrotherB4gder: so we need more people to sign up with different dates to make that distributed more evenly :)
20:09:52B4gder=)
20:09:54AlexPgah, 2011/06/03
20:10:04*bluebrother prefers 2011-06-03
20:10:22pwlI did everything as in http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodManualRestore, including recreating the partition table from scratch
20:10:37AlexPbluebrother: Yes, I realised as pressing enter that the silly US date system means that I only made it less clear :)
20:10:51pwlI would grately appreciate any help
20:11:01bluebrotherI figured that I get a date conflict on 3rd too but I can live with that
20:11:41bluebrotherpwl: is there a reason why you're formatting the Ipod? I never needed to do that (except when swapping drives)
20:13:33bluebrotherone nice thing about the 3rd is that the 2nd is a public holiday in germany :)
20:13:35pwlThe file system got corrupted, and the only way for me to get it working again was to format it
20:14:51AlexPbluebrother: France too
20:14:56AlexPbut not the UK
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20:17:05bluebrotherpwl: sorry, no idea. Maybe some flash corruption?
20:17:57bluebrotherok, so is the date settled? Or are we waiting for others to care for distributing the green checkmarks a bit more?
20:18:09pwlbluebrother: it looks like it, I reformatted it many times before without any problem
20:18:32B4gderbluebrother: we should probably set a deadline for when people can edit the doodle and then decide
20:19:39bluebrotherB4gder: I agree. Planning early would be a good thing :)
20:20:02bluebrotherplus, if I want to go by train I should get the tickets soon.
20:20:09B4gderyes, travel and accommodation and convincing family etc are better with some time ahead
20:20:43 Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik)
20:21:49AlexPB4gder: When do you think is reasonable - a week after Torne sent the original e-mail?
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20:22:18B4gdersounds fine to me
20:22:18AlexPThat would be until next Tuesday
20:23:00*AlexP suggest this to the list
20:23:02B4gdermore people can still join, they just won't affect which date we pick
20:31:32***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:02:50scorche`pixelma: where is this post?
21:03:35 Quit user890104 ()
21:05:28pixelmaAlexP took care of them. I just thought that if I delete them they end up in the "Deleted Posts" section so that the normal user doesn't see them. But I wasn't sure if that would make it harder for you guys
21:05:29pixelmaor not
21:05:29 Quit pwl (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
21:05:36 Nick scorche` is now known as scorche (~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche)
21:05:44pixelmathere were like 10..15 spam posts
21:06:07scorchepixelma: it shouldnt make it harder - i will have to experiment
21:06:49AlexPscorche: Does the askimet job have any config items so that non-approved posts don't show up in recent posts, and don't make threads say there are new posts?
21:06:52 Quit Keripo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:07:03pixelmaalright, I just that it could be a stop gap solution to hide them from the normal user who happens to look at the recent posts list
21:07:28pixelmait took quite a while until they were cleaned out
21:08:10scorcheAlexP: no - i do know that it is not fully integrated into our current theme, however that may not be the issue here - akismet was not designed for SMF after all - just adapted
21:08:40scorchei *think* the integration into our theme is more about letting the poster know they have been flagged - i will have to check
21:08:48AlexPOK, cheers
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21:24:30Zagorheh, JdGordon's dynamic size patch build is impressively dynamic. it lives in the upper left quarter of my screen :-)
21:28:23scorcheas a reminder, if you are planning to be involved in GSoC (as a mentor capacity - or just want some say in it) - join #rockbox-gsoc
21:32:48scorcheB4gder: your link id is still "rockbox", yes?
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22:09:20Zagor_kugel: why is the android button translation split into three separate functions, rather than a single switch?
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22:31:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:33:05Zagor_guys, I'm going to fix fade_on_stop now. this has been wrong for way too long.
22:34:44jhMikeShow so?
22:35:10Zagor_it's too slow. it's been too slow for ages.
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22:35:34Zagor_it was added to mimic what winamp does, which is a *very* quick fade in/out just to avoid the pop
22:35:44Zagor_it's not a sleep timer
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22:50:51JdGordonZagor_: which target? is that what youd expect?
22:52:33Zagor_JdGordon: all targets
22:53:04JdGordon? OK im confused
22:53:26Zagor_oh, sorry wrong context. android, 480x800
22:54:11JdGordonthe newest version of my patch only enables it for sdlapp, so maybe i messed up somewhere
22:54:17JdGordon(fairly likely)
22:54:44Zagor_I tried the build on the wiki page
22:54:57Zagor_android wiki page
22:55:22JdGordonah, well thats ancient :)
22:55:35Zagor_ok, fair enough
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23:20:31gbl08mahi everyone. regarding the discussion about a-b repeat on iPod nano2g, I removed the comments from the two defines related to a-b repeat on ipodnano2g.h, compiled, and apparently A-B repeat works as expected (as described in the manual) without any issues so far (tested with a OGG Vorbis file)
23:20:38 Quit leavittx_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:20:51B4gderscorche: yes
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23:21:50gbl08maso, I get to the conclusion that A-b repeat is stupidly disabled on nano2g. if any developer can test better and (if it really works) commit the changes to svn, it'd be gladly appreciated.
23:22:17gevaertsIt's not disabled. It just isn't enabled :)
23:22:35gbl08maas you prefer :)
23:25:00CIA-2New commit by 03gevaerts (r29557): Enable A-B repeat on nano2g
23:25:23CIA-2New commit by 03zagor (r29558): Quicker fade_on_stop.
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23:27:10gbl08mathank you gevaerts... 22 seconds between two commits...
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23:28:23CIA-2r29557 build result: All green
23:31:48 Join literal_ [0] (hinrik@w.nix.is)
23:31:59CIA-2r29558 build result: All green
23:32:04n1syeah, there are a few targets that don't have ab repeat enabled and i don't think ther's any reason for it
23:32:31n1sclassic is one of them, so i could fix that as soon as i get the bootloader installed
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23:35:10jhMikeShow quick is fade on stop now?
23:37:39Zagor_maybe 300ms
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23:54:01CIA-2New commit by 03zagor (r29559): Enable volume keys in Android.
23:54:33 Quit mudd1 (Quit: Ex-Chat)
23:57:36CIA-2r29559 build result: All green

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