#rockbox 2011-04-12

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#rockbox log for 2011-04-12

00:02:50	bluebrother	yay, now it looks really good :)
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00:04:34	bertrik	should we write "customize" or "customise" in the user manual?
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00:04:58	AlexP	bertrik: Customise for me
00:05:06	AlexP	But this will be another fun argument
00:05:17	bertrik	do we have a tag for that?
00:07:59	AlexP	tag?
00:08:47	bertrik	never mind, it was a stupid attempt at a joke, to have a tag to switch between -ize and -ise
00:08:54	AlexP	ah :)
00:09:07	AlexP	Anyway, I'm off to bed, can argue later :)
00:09:52	bluebrother	bertrik: changed :)
00:09:56	CIA-87	New commit by bluebrother (r29705): Allow URLs to break at hyphens and allow more space at breaking characters. ...
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00:14:31	CIA-87	r29705 build result: All green
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00:42:17	CIA-87	New commit by bertrik (r29706): Fix spelling of "appearance" in the user manual.
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00:45:59	CIA-87	r29706 build result: All green
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01:11:23	webguest00	Hello my sansa clip 2gig v01.01.35A doesent show up in the selection menue for rockbox
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01:13:47	webguest00	hello? anyone there?
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01:14:30	webguest00	Can some one help meplease?
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01:17:16	webguest00	hello!!! I would like some assistence please
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01:22:38	kevin__	Hello can i get some assistance please?
01:23:39	kevin__	I need some help with rockbox that isnt covered in the faq
01:27:04	krazykit	you can if you ask a question
01:28:02	kevin__	Finnally. okay so my sansa 2gig v1, dosent show up in the list of drives i can install rockbox to
01:28:41	krazykit	your device is probably in MTP mode. it needs to be in MSC mode
01:29:00	kevin__	How do I do that?
01:30:07	krazykit	that's covered in the installation section of the manual
01:30:13	krazykit	i don't recall off-hand
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01:40:55	vlam	Can someone help me out here
01:42:23	vlam	I'm trying to uninstall RockBox
01:42:29	vlam	Specifically t he bootloader
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01:44:44	kevin__	Hey thanks guys
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01:50:50	kevin__	I don't think it's on there anymore anyways
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04:39:08	byteframe	rockbox on my new sansa clip is secksee howt.
04:39:13	byteframe	clip+
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05:40:36	byteframe	my sansa clip+ boots into original firmware upon usb removeal. if I reboot, rockbox loads. is there something I can do?
05:42:43	DrDnar	Sure, you can listen to music.
05:43:04	DrDnar	Is there something you think is wrong?
05:43:43	byteframe	I quess. If It could, shouldn't it boot into rockbox?
05:44:09	wtachi	byteframe: Rockbox doesn't have 100% complete USB support for the clips
05:44:23	wtachi	it has to use the OF
05:44:32	byteframe	wtachi, I read, but I read/write from a linux host, so should I be ok?
05:45:10	DrDnar	I have a Sansa e200. It doesn't need to reboot after using USB, but that's because Rockbox's USB support is completed for that model.
05:45:27	byteframe	What functionality is it missing?
05:45:56	wtachi	byteframe: IIRC, it sometimes connects to Windows at a low speed
05:46:15	wtachi	you can compile your own version with USB enabled, and try it
05:46:25	byteframe	That's fine. I don't use windows.
05:46:27	DrDnar	Huh, sounds like a descriptors problem.
05:46:40	wtachi	it's been a known problem for a while
05:46:40	byteframe	So far I've only had it crash twice (I think both going 'back' while playing with the database).
05:46:57	wtachi	yeah, the database is flaky because the developers don't use it
05:47:06	byteframe	I can deal with the reboot after no usb, are there anyother tips?
05:47:20	DrDnar	The host operating system shouldn't matter.
05:47:59	byteframe	Is the database flaky? I easily do the files (or just get my playlists on there) and avoid all that battery drain and such.
05:48:00	DrDnar	Rockbox probably just simulates a generic USB MSD.
05:48:30	byteframe	DrDnar, I had to change it from MTP to MSC (UMS?) after opening the box.
05:48:35	wtachi	byteframe: it's up to you, if you're having problems
05:48:43	wtachi	byteframe: that's in the OF; Rockbox is MSC only
05:48:57	byteframe	Does MSC == UMS?
05:49:25	byteframe	ok yes. thanks.
05:52:51	byteframe	Can I hide something (Database or FM Radio) from the main menu?
05:54:04	wtachi	byteframe: not without modifying the code yourself
05:54:10	byteframe	ok.
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08:20:51	WhoisMaple	Can someone help me quick, i have to leave for work. My while playing screen is stuck as the failsafe. No matter which theme i choose it remains in the failsafe wps. I am running a sansa fuzev1 latest stable build. Any way to remedy this w/o a full wipe and install?
08:24:08	saratoga	usually means the theme you selected didn't parse correctly
08:24:37	saratoga	the default should always work unless you went into the rockbox folder and deleted it
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08:25:29	WhoisMaple	All of my themes do the same thing even the default.
08:26:13	saratoga	something wrong with your install then
08:26:24	saratoga	check the disk for errors, etc
08:27:01	WhoisMaple	it was literally working fine a minute ago :( jsut my luck
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08:32:53	WhoisMaple	So i got the default theme working now, How would i go about getting the other themes to work? delete and reinstall em?
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11:32:27	Hindu	What about our GSOC proposals ??
11:33:46	AlexP	Hindu: We are evaluating them
11:34:10	AlexP	If we need more detail/interviews/whatever, we'll ask - until then patience is the key
11:36:53	Hindu	Well , today is the fourth day after proposals....:)
11:37:26	gevaerts	Ah, nice of you to keep track of the numbers for us!
11:38:07	AlexP	Hindu: We know
11:38:29	AlexP	Hindu: We all also have real lives, and there are many developers we need to co-ordinate
11:38:30	Hindu	Well , can you give me a rough idea about the no. of proposals to Rockbox ? Mentors can tell that I suppose
11:38:42	AlexP	Hindu: Sorry, not for the moment, no
11:39:20	tguinot	Wait & see ;]
11:39:23	Hindu	So ?
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11:39:45	Hindu	OK
11:39:50	Hindu	;)
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11:40:09	AlexP	Hindu: You aren't going to achieve anything positive by continually asking
11:40:25	AlexP	We've said that we are evaluating and that we will ask if we need anything
11:40:32	AlexP	Until then please just be patient
11:40:33	Hindu	So what should I do?
11:40:39	Hindu	OK
11:40:58	tguinot	Wait, begin to read doc, etc...
11:41:05	AlexP	Exactly
11:41:14	AlexP	Get involved in other areas, read the source etc.
11:41:24	AlexP	Although really that should have been done before now :)
11:41:48	Hindu	Allright !!!
11:43:21	Hindu	you guys only mention on the website that we should be interacting with the mentors , Be in touch , So I just asked about the applications......
11:44:23	AlexP	Sure, but interacting doesn't mean keeping asking the same question when you have been told we will ask if needed and to be patient
11:44:45	AlexP	interacting means getting involved in the community, familiarising yourself with the code, things like that
11:44:55	Hindu	Allright .... :)
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11:47:09	tguinot	Hindu: I think you can start to work, even if you are not selected, It will help the project
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12:09:17	wodz\|work	about GSOC proposals - only thouse who signed up as mentor read it or any rb developer can help evaluating?
12:10:12	gevaerts	You need to be signed up as a mentor to see them
12:10:25	gevaerts	But any developer can sign up as a mentor
12:10:58	wodz\|work	ok, maybe next time
12:11:22	gevaerts	You can still sign up
12:12:43	wodz\|work	gevaerts: sorry for my ignorance - what is the procedure?
12:13:30	gevaerts	Go to http://www.google-melange.com/ and look for the "Mentors: Apply now" bit
12:13:52	gevaerts	Don't ask me more details, I signed up before the new user interface was launched :)
12:14:15	wodz\|work	:-)
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13:10:48	B4gder	wodz\|work: #rockbox-gsoc is the channel for the gsoc talk
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14:42:01	smk	hi. a very fundamental question. why did rockbox choose to have it's own kernel? why not run it as an app on existing kernel of the device?. is it because running as app would make the apps device dependent?
14:42:24	B4gder	smk: because the targets we started rockbox on were far too small to run linux
14:43:01	kugel	more fun, too :)
14:44:15	smk	yeah ofcourse. I meant why not use the kernel that must be already running on a device. Currently, rockbox replaces the original kernel with it's own.
14:44:46	smk	did the earlier targets not have an OS on them?
14:44:54	Zagor	most devices don't
14:45:18	Torne	Do any of the devices we run on, other than the ones we run as an app on, have any kind of OS?
14:45:22	Zagor	only the very latest like ipod touch and android devices have an operating system that runs apps
14:46:05	B4gder	some of them run some RTOS
14:46:26	B4gder	but we couldn't "run apps" on those anyway
14:46:59	Torne	smk: most embedded devices don't have a kernel. They run a single binary on the bare metal, generally
14:47:00	smk	yeah. i thought every DAP must require resource management in some way. so all of them might be having OSes. i assumed so.
14:47:13	B4gder	smk: malloc doesn't require an OS...
14:47:28	gevaerts	Define "OS" :)
14:47:30	Torne	Rockbox is also a single binary running on bare metal; our "kernel" is a logical component in the source, not a seperate actual thing that gets built
14:49:20	smk	i would define OS as a resource manager. rockbox has thread to schedule and service. so i figured the firmware that originally comes with DAPs must be having a similar architecture, hence the need of a kernel
14:49:35	Torne	If you define OS that way then yes, probably all of them ahve an OS
14:49:51	B4gder	but they're all pretty custom and proprietary
14:49:51	Torne	but the OS and the "application" are invariably combined into a single thing
14:49:53	pamaury	the main point here is that nearly all devices have a single binary blob which contains everything (all the code)
14:50:04	Torne	There's no actual separation in the produced firmware binary
14:50:31	Torne	there is no requirement that there be any separate components/layers, or that it be possible to replace any part of it
14:50:42	gevaerts	smk: trying to link to the existing firmware would be (a) legally very dubious, (b) technically insane, and (c) no fun at all
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14:51:52	pamaury	yeah, I had to do it once to isolate code and it was a nightmare, so (b) is a real stopper
14:52:04	smk	hmm okay. i agree with (c). I figured writing device specific app would be easier than writing device specific core or kernel (whatever it is called)..
14:52:37	smk	now i get it though.
14:52:59	Torne	No, that would be about a million times harder
14:53:09	smk	:)
14:53:17	Torne	The original firmwares of these devices are much more different than the actual hardware is ;)
14:53:50	Torne	the hardware/software boundary is at least a clean point of separation where you are supposed to be able to replace things
14:53:55	Torne	and hardware is often documented
14:54:10	Torne	the original firmwares have no such separations, and never any documentation
14:55:19	smk	right. when i learnt that rockbox has it's own kernel, i imagined a layered architecture like with any system..
14:55:30	Torne	It's layered logically, yes
14:56:02	Torne	that doesn't mean they're not all linked into one big blob at build time :)
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14:57:05	smk	yeah that's true.
14:58:26	smk	so all apps,core , plugins come bundled. But since there is a logical layer, is it possible to load a rockbox-app onto the device after it has been installed on it?
14:58:38	smk	like we do for android
14:59:28	Torne	not sure what you mean.
14:59:36	Torne	"core" is the app and the firmware layer, linked together
15:00
15:00:12	Torne	the rockbox-as-app ports have a core which contains a lot of the same app code, but only a rather small set of firmware code which just stubs onto the underlying OS's interfaces
15:01:20	pamaury	on all devices, there is a binary whichs contains the "firmware" and "apps" code; all the rest (plugins and codecs) are loaded on demand and are in other files
15:01:33	smk	what i mean is can anyone write a rockbox-app (say a stopwatch with a stylish interface) , and install it on a device which already has the rockbox core?
15:02:25	smk	pamaury: yeah thanks. that's what i wanted to know :)
15:02:36	pamaury	you can write it as a plugin and then run it from rockbox
15:02:40	Torne	you're misusing "app" here
15:02:58	Torne	our plugins behave kind of like applications but they are not really distributable in any other way, and they do not replace the rockbox app code
15:03:16	Torne	Distributing them seperately from the core generally doesn't work, though in an ideal world it maybe would.
15:03:41	smk	okay.
15:04:16	Torne	so yes, you can write a plugin which does that kind of thing, but you still have to compile the plugin seprately for every rockbox target
15:04:19	Torne	plugins are not portable
15:04:36	Torne	and even within the same target it will only work within a fairly narrow range of builds where we haven't changed anything in the plugin API
15:04:47	Torne	so, in practise the way to do this is contribute the code of the plugin to rockbox :)
15:04:53	Torne	then it gets built witht eh rest, and included in the build.
15:05:17	smk	right. got the concept..
15:05:40	Torne	the plugins are, as far as the compiler and linker are concerned, also part of the same binary
15:05:48	Torne	it just happens that they're a part that's kept in a separate file
15:10:25	smk	B4gder: malloc is a request to the OS for more memory. on receiving such a request , the OS returns a handle to the appropriate chunk, to the process that requested memory.
15:10:41	smk	so i think OS is required . i might be wrong though :P
15:10:59	gevaerts	malloc() is usually not implemented in the kernel :)
15:11:19	Torne	no; sbrk() is the standard unixy name for the syscall that actually gets memory from the kernel
15:11:23	*	gevaerts is being pedantic
15:11:33	Torne	malloc is a layer above that generally
15:12:52	smk	true. but either ways, OS intervention is necessary.
15:17:38	Torne	no
15:17:52	Torne	malloc just needs a big chunk of memory to carve up to satisfy requests.
15:18:19	Torne	on an OS with process isolation it generally starts with a very small piece, then calls sbrk as needed to ask the OS for more
15:18:35	Torne	on an embedded system the malloc heap might just be "all of the memory that's left that we aren't using for anything else"
15:18:42	Torne	so there's no need to ahve any "os" involvement
15:18:54	Torne	when there's no more room in the heap you just fail
15:19:00	gevaerts	And threads don't count either!
15:19:27	Torne	yah, you can do threading without OS help as well ;)
15:19:36	gevaerts	Well, we do in RaaAoA :)
15:19:37	smk	oh. so the allotment is already there. malloc just picks from the quota given to it.
15:19:48	Torne	malloc works however you implement it to work
15:19:51	Torne	it's just a library function
15:20:11	gevaerts	(which we don't have)
15:20:47	smk	gevaerts: yeah, working on that ;)
15:21:29	Torne	hopefully a nice one :)
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15:23:00	smk	not sure about threads though. This discussion asks me to revisit my OS concepts, which i should do :)
15:23:33	Torne	it comes down to "an OS is not a well defined thing" :)
15:23:44	Torne	it's whatever the person who said it means ;)
15:24:03	smk	true. the boundary is blur.
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15:27:42	pamaury	TheLemonMan: I just had a look at your OpenBLTC repo on github, the protocol.txt might be incomplete: you should say the payload size is LE the second time. Also, I'm not sure about the transfer size, since you seem to send 0x40+1 per transfer and I send 1024+1
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15:35:16	TheLemonMan	pamaury: yeah i forgot to update the header explanation :). My usb traces were all using 0x41 chunks and yours too iirc
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15:41:36	pamaury	TheLemonMan: I doubt it, mine were sending 1025 bytes each time, I'm pretty sure
15:42:45	TheLemonMan	pamaury: here's mine, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8112836/dump.html As you can see it's using 0x41 chunks
15:42:48	pamaury	do you know what was the maximum size of a ep0 transfer on your device
15:42:59	TheLemonMan	0x40 is the max size
15:43:32	pamaury	hum, I should check with mine, I pasted the trace, need to find the link on my history
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15:48:56	pamaury	mine too has a 64 bytes ep0 control size (the maximum), so the maximum transfer size might be independent of the maximum packet size
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15:58:32	TheLemonMan	have you tried sending something to your player with my tool ?
15:59:20	pamaury	no
15:59:32	pamaury	I'll try when I'll be home if you want
15:59:39	pamaury	have you tried with mine ?
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16:01:40	TheLemonMan	did you send me the code ?
16:03:42		Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
16:03:52	pamaury	send you the link: pamaury/pa-tools/blob/master/fuze%2B/recovery_hid/recovery_hid.c">https://github.com/pamaury/pa-tools/blob/master/fuze%2B/recovery_hid/recovery_hid.c
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16:08:48	TheLemonMan	pamaury: fails at transfer step 0 with 1024, at step 2016 with 64
16:10:33	pamaury	ok, so you device doesn't seem to support such a size
16:10:33	TheLemonMan	err, it's working with 64 but doesnt like the last interrupt transfer
16:10:54	pamaury	maybe they have a slightly different protocol
16:11:22	TheLemonMan	maybe depends on the fuse config
16:16:15	TheLemonMan	brb in a few hours
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17:28:44	mishra	hello everyone
17:29:00	mishra	i read that #rockbox-gsoc is the channel for the gsoc talk
17:29:10	mishra	but its invite only
17:29:20	Biont	Hell. A friend of mine just brought her rockboxed clipv2 which has been working flawlessly for well over a year now. Now it refuses to play anything, and all folders appear empty. However, the stock firmware works just fine and all files are in place. We got an error message once, but I can't reproduce it yet: http://pastebin.com/BYbJetA2
17:29:58	Biont	+o ^^ Well, everything worked fine until yesterday. any idea? I already did an update, of course
17:31:20	gevaerts	mishra: it's the channel for gsoc mentor talk to be specific
17:32:35	mishra	ok thanks
17:32:58	mishra	who should I catch to discuss about AAC ?
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17:36:50	evilnick_B	Biont: What is Show Files set to?
17:37:01	evilnick_B	Sounds like it's accidentally been changed to Playlists
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17:40:56	Biont	ah okay. that fixed the file browser :) But it still does not play
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17:44:07	saratoga	mishra: i can talk to you about AAC, also probably Buschel if hes on since hes worked on it more then me
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17:44:58	Biont	fast forward also works, but no sound/playback
17:48:46	mishra	Ok, I have read about the basics of AAC now, so I want to ask if their are already some problem areas or bottlenecks identified in the current implementation?
17:49:58	saratoga	SBR is still pretty slow
17:50:10	saratoga	and the PS code is a mess as well, i don't think anyone has ever looked at it
17:50:36	saratoga	the code AAC-LC decoder is pretty well optimized, although not nearly so fast as WMA/Vorbis
17:51:04	saratoga	Buschel could tell you about SBR since he committed a lot of improvements over the summer
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17:55:01	mishra	Ok will catch him sometime. Is there some documentation of the current implementation ?
17:56:30	saratoga	documentation?
17:56:33	saratoga	of what?
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17:59:43	mishra	of the flow, like a block diagram etc
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18:00:30	saratoga	ah no, but generally people just generate those if they want them
18:01:10	saratoga	although maybe putting something up for libfaad would make sense since its such a fucking mess
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18:02:22	xmatrix	Anyone else using rockbox on the iPod classic and want to share their experiences? So far I've been using it for a few days and noticed that charging time takes roughly 6 hours (for 94% which it caps at for me) and battery life lasts roughly 9 hours.
18:03:15	mishra	I see, how should one approach to optimize something, lets say SBR, should we profile the code with say gprof and try to optimize the most used functions ?
18:03:44	saratoga	you won't be able to run gprof on rockbox, but it is possible to profile rockbox code, although its not always easy to do
18:04:09	saratoga	stripwax has profiled a lot of the codecs, usually takes a lot of fiddling with the code and inlining to get meaningful results
18:04:30	saratoga	i usually just skim the code, look for functions that are likely to be slow, and then comment them and benchmark without them
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18:04:52	saratoga	most codecs aren't that large, so it doesn't take all that long
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18:05:21	saratoga	i posted a couple measurements here last summer: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11461#comment36343
18:05:39	saratoga	done with the 64kaache test file
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18:18:37	mishra	Nice, I will try to put test_codec on my player and run some tests to start with. Thanks.
18:22:13	evilnick_B	Biont: What codec are the files that don't play? Is there anything unusual about the files? Large comment tags?
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18:26:13	Biont	I have yet to find a file that will play at all. It really seems to affect playback as a whole. The files are mostly mp3 and maybe a couple of wma it seems
18:26:34	saratoga	check the disk for errors
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18:30:21	Biont	okay
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18:30:54	Biont	Should I rid the player files from comment tags just to make sure?
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18:51:32	Biont	any specific utilities you want me to use? I just used the chkdsk from the explorer and it reported no errors.
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18:51:44	Biont	going to erase the comment tags now
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19:27:06	TheLemonMan	pamaury: youre working on a 3780, right ?
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20:37:53	Biont	Alright, after checking for errors on the clip and deleting all comment tags, I still get no playback and an error message like this: http://pastebin.com/BYbJetA2
20:38:16	Biont	It also said "Codec failure" several times now. I didn't see that before
20:39:31	Biont	regular mp3, btw.
20:39:38	Biont	any ideas?
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20:40:42	gevaerts	Biont: did you check the filesystem?
20:40:53	gevaerts	Ah, I see you did...
20:41:13	gevaerts	Which rockbox version are you running?
20:41:48	Biont	I updated to the latest version before joining here to see if the problem persists
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20:42:16	gevaerts	So r29706?
20:42:19	Biont	i.e. recent build
20:42:35	Biont	yep
20:42:55	gevaerts	weird
20:43:26	Buschel	gevaerts: do we have the map-files of those builds?
20:43:34	gevaerts	I don't think so
20:43:41	Biont	she came here after running her rockboxed clip for more than a year so I figured an update would be the first thing to try, but it didn't help.
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20:44:47	Biont	just to stress again: the stock firmware runs fine
20:45:20	saratoga	could be an incomplete update
20:45:30	saratoga	if you have old codecs with a new binary that won't work
20:46:19	Buschel	"codec failure" could also be a sign of incomplete update...
20:46:26	Buschel	saratoga: you were faster :)
20:46:55	[Saint]	kugel: FWIW...you were right about KEYTOOL
20:46:57	[Saint]	thanks.
20:47:29	Biont	How do I update properly if I missed something?
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20:49:49	[Saint]	Biont: to update "properly"...just use RbUtil
20:51:04	[Saint]	Using Rockbox Utility guarantees that everything ends up where it's supposed to be.
20:51:26	Biont	okay. Fancy. I'll do that
20:56:28	Biont	Feels good to finally use this program at least once :)
20:59:32	Biont	hm...extraction froze at 91%
21:00
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21:02:20	Biont	trying again :D
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21:07:37	Buschel	hmm, I just built clipv2 r29706. 0x3004EA6C is the address of strcasecmp
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21:21:58	Biont	I don't know what just happened. Rbutil froze again after I tried to do a full reinstall...I feared I would brick it or something, but I unplugged and restarted it anyway...now it works o_O
21:22:50		Quit pepsi_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
21:23:22	Biont	is there any way to check if everything is in place and up to date? I don't feel too comfortable about giving it back just now
21:31:53	evilnick_B	Biont: Which player?
21:32:06	Biont	sansa clipv2
21:34:01	*	evilnick_B isn't totally sure, but on the players that he's used, the bootloader version can be found when powering on the player
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21:34:39	evilnick_B	And for the main rockbox build, check System > Rockbox Info
21:36:24	Biont	Boot 2.0 / r29706
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21:38:13	ptrkmj	Hi. I have a strange problem with my 5.5G iPod. Hard reset function (pressing Menu + Select button) is not working. Click wheel works fine. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
21:38:46	Biont	Not sure about the bootloader, but it said 29706 before and I was apparently missing codecs. 2 frozen and aborted installations later, it's working again. Can I really trust this?
21:40:20	evilnick_B	Biont: It's a difficult question to answer as we don't know what you've done to get to this stage.
21:41:00	[Saint]	ptrkmj: If that button combination is not working, then it is not a Rockbox issue.
21:41:17	[Saint]	that combination is handled by hardware, if it does not work, your player is broken.
21:41:19	Torne	ptrkmj: turn the hold switch on and off first
21:41:21	evilnick_B	i.e. you could extract the contents of a new build but tell the compression program to not overwrite files so you'd be left with a partial old build and a partial new build.
21:41:23	ptrkmj	Well, I know. I haven't even installed it :)
21:41:23	Torne	then hold it for longer
21:42:28	ptrkmj	Torne: I tried everything from this page http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1320?viewlocale=en_US including that
21:42:56	gevaerts	ptrkmj: is the ipod flat on a table?
21:43:07	gevaerts	That helps a lot
21:43:09	Torne	well so far basically everybody who has ever asked that question has in fact just been doing it wrong. maybe one or two people have turned out to have broken hardware.
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21:43:18	Torne	It's never been anything else that I'm aware of :)
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21:43:47	Torne	Make sure you're holding just those two buttons, that you don't let go of either of them even a little, and you hold it for, like, 30+ seconds before giving up
21:43:53	[Saint]	that's correct. If it's not working, either you're messing it up or your player is busted.
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21:47:28	ptrkmj	I doubt I'm doing it wrong (I tried so many times). 6-7 seconds used to work. I'll try few more times, though. My iPod is working just fine (it's not 'frozen' at the moment).
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21:49:06	[Saint]	ptrkmj: It's perfectly capable of "working fine" and still being broken.
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21:49:14	[Saint]	this is a hardware issue, not software.
21:49:23	*	gevaerts still thinks it's a finger issue
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21:49:37	[Saint]	gevaerts: not if he used to be able to do it.
21:49:54	[Saint]	I'd like to assume people don't just forget how to use their iPods.
21:50:03	[Saint]	however flawed that may be ;)
21:50:07	gevaerts	true
21:50:14	ptrkmj	Saint:: Any particular hardware issue? My click wheel works fine...
21:50:50	[Saint]	ptrkmj: it's apparently not capable of registering that particular button combination anymore.
21:50:53	Biont	Well, I checked all overwriting options during the manual update. Don't know what RbUtil did...or what I did to crash it. It ran as administrator on a freshly installed Win7. Guess I'll just give the player back to my friend and tell her to keep an eye on it in case there are strange things happening
21:50:59	[Saint]	which kinda sucks, as, it's important.
21:52:27	Biont	Thank you for your time and help then. I'll report back if the initial problem turns up again. According to my friend it literally stopped playing anything over night. she didn't put on new music or anything
21:52:41	[Saint]	I would suggest trying to enter the Apple debug mode (select+previous) and doing a button check in there.
21:52:45	evilnick_B	Oh,. hang on...
21:52:47	[Saint]	ptrkmj: ^^
21:52:52	evilnick_B	Biont: Hang on a second
21:52:58	Biont	okay
21:53:03	ptrkmj	Can it be connected with removing a ground strap? (The metal plate between click wheel and mainboard)
21:53:10		Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.)
21:53:11	evilnick_B	Biont: Can you have a look at the manual for Party Mode? See if that sounds familiar?
21:53:28	[Saint]	ptrkmj: Err...what?
21:53:42	evilnick_B	Biont: There's a chance that your friend managed to both change the File View setting AND enabled Party Mode.
21:53:51	ptrkmj	Saint: Have you ever disassembled iPod? :)
21:54:08	[Saint]	Yes, I have.
21:54:12	evilnick_B	So File View made sure the music couldn't be seen, and Party Mode means that it can't be played
21:54:27	evilnick_B	s/can't be played/can't be played the usual ways
21:55:06	[Saint]	ptrkmj: If you specifically removed insulation, I think you found your answer...
21:55:22	[Saint]	surprise surprise, it's there for a reason.
21:55:47	ptrkmj	There's a metal grounding plate situated between click wheel and logic board. My new board (bought on eBay) lacks it.
21:56:39	[Saint]	I'd say it's likely that is it.
21:56:45	[Saint]	It's definitely a HW issue.
21:57:11	[Saint]	if you're 100% that you're doing the reset combination correctly, it must be a HW issue.
21:57:29	Biont	hm...that does sound interesting
21:57:31	saratoga	Buschel: did you have any specific thoughts about what could be improved for AAC or AAC-HE for GSOC?
21:59:38	ptrkmj	Saint: I think I'll make a topic on forum. Someone might verify this. Thank you for your help.
22:00
22:00:05	Buschel	saratoga: I saw your comment and also think AAC-HE should be the focus. starting with profiling it
22:00:29	saratoga	do you know if stripwax ever managed to profile AAC-HE?
22:00:44	Buschel	no, I do not knwo
22:00:48	Buschel	*know
22:01:03	Biont	well, I can't tell for sure now, but I'm sure pause/stop did work...at least the icon changed.also fast forward seemed to work on paper. not sure about skipping
22:01:14	Buschel	saratoga: the right samples will be needed... just to ensure PS is measured right...
22:01:38	saratoga	yes I should make a PS sample
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22:05:38	Buschel	I would be interested how much CPU all the pre/post rotations in SBR cost.
22:06:01	Buschel	same for the hf-stuff...
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22:09:26	saratoga	i apparently measured hf_adjustment at 14MHz and hf_generation at 20MHz last summer on AMSv2
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22:10:56	saratoga	on the upside both those functions look like they could be massively accelerated on armv5e without too much trouble
22:11:12		Quit japc (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
22:12:05	saratoga	ASM might help a lot for armv4 too depending on how well gcc handles them
22:12:33		Quit Dreamxtreme (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
22:22:03	saratoga	Bagder, Zagor: could one of you upload this file http://duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/files1/nero_hev2_64.m4a to http://download.rockbox.org/test_files/ ?
22:22:14	Zagor	sure
22:22:35	saratoga	and then further rename "64kaache.m4a" to "nero_he_64.m4a" so that its consistent?
22:23:02	Zagor	ok
22:23:51	Zagor	done
22:24:45	CIA-87	New commit by saratoga (r29707): Update parse_testcodec to parse AAC-HE files with parametric stereo.
22:25:04	saratoga	hope thats right (i don't know ruby but it looks like perl so i made an educated guess)
22:25:59		Quit Biont (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
22:26:46	saratoga	not sure if 64k was a sensible bitrate for HEv2, but I think its easier to compare if HE and HEv2 have similar bitrates
22:28:27	Buschel	should be fine imho −− I have a real life hev2 @56kbps
22:28:57	CIA-87	r29707 build result: All green
22:30:40	saratoga	the ps functions mostly look like filterbanks using small constant tables
22:30:57	saratoga	could pretty easily be made 2-3x faster on armv5e just by using the DSP instructions
22:31:10	saratoga	although i don't really know how much time is really spent in those functions
22:32:06	Buschel	on my nano 2g there is not diference between he and hev2, on PP5022 the difference is ~16 MHz
22:32:22	Buschel	(from a very small test base)
22:32:22	saratoga	wow thats surprising
22:32:32	saratoga	i suppose lack of IRAM could be an issue for PS
22:32:33	Buschel	2 he and 2 hev2
22:32:43	saratoga	are the bitrates the same?
22:32:50	Buschel	no
22:33:40	Buschel	both he ~64kbps, hev2 are 56 and 48 kbps
22:33:53	saratoga	so maybe that helps
22:34:02	saratoga	actually i'm not really sure how the LC part works with PS
22:34:06	saratoga	perhaps the MDCT is faster?
22:34:35	saratoga	An HE-AAC v1 decoder will only give mono sound when decoding an HE-AAC v2 bitstream.
22:34:44	saratoga	ah so the MDCT is likely 2x as fast for PS
22:34:51	saratoga	so thats probably a quite large savings
22:36:39	saratoga	actually looking at these filters, i bet gcc does quite a poor job of using LDM, so that may be why your ARM9 devices does so much better then ARM7, almost 2x the load store throughput
22:37:57	Buschel	you're looking at the channel_filter stuff?
22:38:14	saratoga	mainly
22:38:26		Quit tmzt (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
22:39:18	saratoga	but hybrid_analysis, hybrid_synthesis and ps_decorrelate also look bad
22:39:29	Buschel	not only ldm, but multiply-add could be used a lot
22:39:43	mishra	may i ask what is LDM ?
22:39:56	Buschel	load multiple
22:40:43	saratoga	on arm7 theres a unified cache 32 bits wide, so each load or store instruction must stall for one cycle
22:41:02	saratoga	so doing multiple transfers greatly accelerates memory accesses
22:41:18	mishra	got it
22:41:21	saratoga	arm9 corrects this by using separate D and I cache so that data can load in parallel with instructions
22:41:50	saratoga	so LDM is no faster (until arm11 where the cache becomes 64 bit wide and thus ldm is faster again)
22:43:22	mishra	which CPU does Ipod Nano 2g has ?
22:43:22	saratoga	http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/TargetSpecificOptimization#ARM
22:43:22	saratoga	arm9tdmi
22:43:22	saratoga	that page breaks down all the arm cpus and players
22:43:22	Buschel	with sloooow memory
22:43:27	mishra	because I have that device.
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22:45:17	saratoga	arm9 isn't bad to work with since generally doing things right on it will help arm7 a lot as well, provided you try to use ldm, stm
22:45:35	saratoga	although you won't be able to try the really fun stuff using the dsp operations added on the arm9e cores and later
22:45:56		Quit ptrkmj (Quit: Page closed)
22:47:10	mishra	I was under the impression that we will go for cpu independent optimization
22:47:38	mishra	since it will improve performance on all devices
22:48:42	gbl08ma_	hello everyone. is it just me, or the option "fade on stop/pause" isn't fading anything? I tried both on and off I can't listen to a difference.
22:49:04	saratoga	algorithmic optimizations are of course best, but in practice they're often extremely difficult
22:51:18	mishra	This reminds me of one question, the libfaad implementation and ffmpeg implementation implement the same decoding logic or not ?
22:51:37	saratoga	they implement the same specification, but they're essentially independent of one another
22:52:01	saratoga	the ffmpeg people made a number of different algorithmic choices in SBR for example
22:52:23	mishra	ok that was what i was looking for
22:52:45	mishra	so maybe we can try some of their code to see if we gain in performance
22:52:51	saratoga	have you compared their implementations?
22:52:59	mishra	not yet
22:53:20		Quit promyloph (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3)
22:54:18	mishra	first i am reading libfaad
22:54:45	saratoga	reading ffmpeg might be easier
22:55:00	saratoga	although fortunately they tend to use similar function names
22:55:36	saratoga	although comparing similarly named functions (e.g. hybrid_analysis) is quite interesting, as they're implemented very differently
22:57:26	mishra	interesting, if it can be proved that ffmpeg is better implemented, then can we go for porting it on RB ?
22:58:26	funman	btw, i read about the aac encoder that google open sourced for android
22:58:31	funman	no idea about its performance though
22:58:51	saratoga	i would probably try to go algorithm by algorithm and pick the best available one
22:59:09	saratoga	although i have no idea how difficult it would be to bolt on say the entire PS code onto libfaad
22:59:20	saratoga	probably fairly so, given that its not fixed point in ffmpeg
23:00
23:00:01	funman	git://opencore-amr.git.sourceforge.net/gitroot/opencore-amr/vo-aacenc
23:00:37	funman	this is a repo created by a FFmpeg dev
23:00:42	mishra	oh, didnt know that ffmpeg has floating point
23:00:46	funman	Apache License v2
23:01:26	saratoga	funman: do they have a decoder too?
23:01:41	saratoga	mishra: we're pretty much alone as far as open source fixed point anything
23:01:50	funman	iirc yes
23:02:44	funman	the encoder has a bit of armv5e asm (and armv7 too)
23:03:55	saratoga	http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/external/opencore.git;a=tree;f=codecs_v2/audio/aac/dec/src;h=dba0d9906f082aae5baf2beae164dc3011361b3a;hb=HEAD
23:04:14	merbanan	saratoga: we have a fixed point fft niw
23:04:16	merbanan	now
23:04:19		Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:04:22	saratoga	yes i saw
23:04:23	merbanan	used in the ac3 encoder
23:04:25	saratoga	its nearly identical to ours
23:05:06	saratoga	although we have added the questionable memory optimization from tremor's mdct that saves a lot of IRAM but hurts cache locality
23:07:35	saratoga	that android decoder looks quite interesting, very well documented code
23:07:37	bluebroth3r	hmm, why does Rockbox leave libmisc.so around on Android after extracting it?
23:07:43	saratoga	even references for some of the algorithms
23:08:08		Quit mshathlonxp (Quit: Leaving)
23:09:07	bluebroth3r	removing it makes the install about 2.5MB smaller, and it still works (unsurprisingly since it's already extracted)
23:09:59	mishra	yes google code documentation is awesome, used their vp8 code, each and every algo was described.
23:10:47	saratoga	ha the mp3 decoder uses a similar approach that i am implementing
23:11:17	merbanan	mishra: well not in the beginning
23:11:55	merbanan	after the ffmpeg decoder was done and all the missing pieces where found it got alot better
23:12:08	mishra	I took it around December 2010
23:12:13	saratoga	yes vp8 seems to have been somewhat of a mess
23:12:29	saratoga	but thats not really our problem
23:14:23	merbanan	saratoga: the android decoder is a maze of files written by Packet Video
23:15:11	saratoga	yes i'm reading through the aac and mp3 decoders now
23:15:18	saratoga	nothing too surprising so far
23:15:38	saratoga	although its hard to imagine they're worse then libfaad
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23:16:49	merbanan	would be interesting to see how a libavcodec aac fixed point decoder port would fair against them
23:18:08	saratoga	not interesting enough for me to want to attempt
23:18:28	saratoga	i'd rather just take the good parts of ffmpeg and combine them with the acceptable parts of other fixed point codecs
23:19:30	saratoga	no sense going through all the trouble of tracing down fixed point overflows in code thats not that performance sensitive
23:20:06	saratoga	although porting that android decoder to rockbox and then swapping out its MDCT for ours might be pretty interesting
23:20:19	saratoga	relative to the degree of difficulty involved
23:20:38		Quit leavittx (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23:20:50	merbanan	the files are *.cpp, but the code looked like c
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23:21:05	merbanan	that might make someone cry for a few days
23:21:34	mishra	but android targets have more powerful cpus, so maybe it will not benefit us straight away
23:21:35	saratoga	i don't see any actual cpp in it
23:22:03	saratoga	and very little assembly unfortunately
23:22:28	merbanan	anyway license way fsf thinks that gplv3 and apache 2.0 are fine
23:23:16		Join bieber [0] (~quassel@162-78.97-97.tampabay.res.rr.com)
23:24:42	mishra	fsf?
23:26:21	saratoga	free software foundation
23:26:35	wodz	I erased whole bootloader on my rockchip just to find out that although it is not on the flash it is still operating from ram somehow
23:30:13		Quit n1s (Remote host closed the connection)
23:35:14		Quit gbl08ma_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:37:02		Nick sheepshank is now known as alexbobp (~alex@ppp-70-253-78-241.dsl.austtx.swbell.net)
23:45:03		Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 3.6.16/20110319135224])
23:51:33		Quit JackWinter (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:52:26		Quit Keripo (Quit: Leaving.)
23:53:00		Join Xerion_ [0] (~xerion@5419A4D7.cm-5-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
23:53:18		Join JackWinter [0] (~jack@vodsl-9173.vo.lu)
23:54:13	wodz	ha, there is spare copy of the bootloader on the flash :-) Let's kill this as well
23:55:06		Quit Xerion (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:55:06		Nick Xerion_ is now known as Xerion (~xerion@5419A4D7.cm-5-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)

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