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#rockbox log for 2011-07-23

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00:24:48rasherhttp://www.androidpolice.com/2011/07/21/developers-can-now-upload-multiple-apks-per-android-market-app-listing/ is this relevant for us?
00:25:22Torneyes
00:26:37rasherI now see that it is old news. Sorry if it's been discussed :)
00:27:18TorneI don't know if it was discussed before
00:28:44rasherI assume it means we don't need resolution-independence?
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00:44:44Tornenot sure if it actually covers specific resolutions
00:44:55Tornethe market match expressions for screen sizes normally are categories, not numbers
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05:05:52[Saint]re: Market/multiple .apks...aren't the size categories for the drawable sections of an .apk simply l/m/hdpi as opposed to any one given resolution?
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08:39:37bluefoxxAlright, so I've recently acquired a Gigabeat F20 in rather nice shape(even in the box with the receipt :o), and am about to rockbox it. Before I do this though, I'd like to backup the firmware, if I can. I have raw disk access and DD at my disposal, can anybody tell me what sector offset I want to copy?
08:39:55 Quit Zarggg (Quit: Rebooting client...)
08:40:48[Saint]Why would you want to backup the firmware? A complete uninstallation is possible and should be outlined in the manual.
08:41:16[Saint]I'd be very surprised if the method for uninstallation requires backing up the entire original FS
08:42:02bluefoxxBecause I'm lazy and find it less work to use images for restoration. Its not for the sake of uninstalling, its for the sake of being able to start over from scratch if something mucks up down the road, or for simplicity sake when I upgrade the drive
08:42:52bluefoxxI have a S30 as well, and if I'd had an image of the original firmware partition on it to work with when I upgraded the drive I'd have had less of a fight with it
08:43:38bluefoxxThe original firmware is a load of ass anyhow, as seems be standard for DAPs.
08:43:46[Saint]That method will only work wo restore provided that Rockbox installation *only* touches the disk.
08:44:19bluefoxxThis isn't for being able to uninstall rockbox, its for the sake of easier upgrading or repair
08:44:31bluefoxxI don't know why anyone would ever want to uninstall rockbox :<
08:45:29[Saint]Yes, I understand that. But what I mean is, you need to guarantee that you can copy the image of *everything* that is modified. There may/may not be some firmware partition that isn't exposed.
08:45:48[Saint]*s/is modified/may be modified/
08:45:50CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
08:45:50*bluefoxx shrugs, just images the entire disk to start with
08:59:06bluefoxxAside, what is the correct term for the 50-pin connector used in the F20, along with most of the older ipods
08:59:55scorche50-pin ATA
09:00
09:01:05bluefoxxDanke
09:03:09bluefoxxBlech. All the nice big drives are ZIF-40 :<
09:03:39scorchewell, that is a newer connector...
09:03:48scorcheif you havent seen this page: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/HardDriveReplacement
09:04:13bluefoxxYeah, I saw that. I'd figured though that there might be a better term to search ebay with.
09:04:30bluefoxxI suppose I can come up with an adapter if I can find the pinouts for either.
09:04:57bluefoxxThe F20 feels a lot more solidly put together than the S30 does
09:07:07*[Saint] isn't sure if there is such an adapter (40-to-50pin ZIF), but may be wrong.
09:08:20scorche[Saint]: other way around, and yes there is
09:08:46scorchehttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ZIFToATAAdapter
09:10:02bluefoxxOh nice.
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09:11:52bluefoxxMight not hurt to have that linked a little more in the wiki
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09:12:09[Saint]"linked a little more"?
09:12:12bluefoxxI've spent probably too much time stumbling about it and never seen that before
09:12:15[Saint]that's what search is for ;)
09:12:50scorchebluefoxx: well, it is a wiki - feel free to make a section on the hard drive replacement page linking to that page...
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11:21:09ukleinekIs Marcin Bukat here?
11:21:41*ukleinek intends to push the rk27xx port forward and he seems to be the one who started it
11:21:50AlexPThat's wodz
11:21:52AlexPSo no :)
11:24:08ukleinekAlexP: still helpful, thanks
11:24:27AlexPHe's often here, so just hang around a bit
11:25:37ukleinekAlexP: will do, thanks
11:26:30JdGordonukleinek: "push" it how? wodz is already doing the work, unless you want to help out?
11:26:54ukleinekJdGordon: yeah, helping out is great
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12:43:51pamauryhum, is there a reason why the arm TTB should be in iram rather than dram ? On the fuze+ the mmu doesn't seem to work if I use the dram
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13:09:30ukleinekpamaury: should not matter AFAICT
13:09:56*pixelma isn't sure which way round pamaury meant though
13:10:28pamauryif I put the ttb in on-chip-ram, it works; if I put the ttb in dram, it doesn't
13:11:14pamauryand the datasheet doesn't say anything about it afaict
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13:22:23pamaurynow the fun begins: fixing all my code to handle the cache commit/discard I forgot
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13:45:05CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury (r30198): imx233/fuze+: fix memory size and appextra configuration
13:45:19CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury (r30199): imx233/fuze+: prepare target to enable MMU
13:45:24CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury (r30200): imx233/fuze+: huge rework ...
13:48:34CIA-14r30198 build result: All green
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13:52:46CIA-14r30200 build result: All green
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14:04:46*bertrik wonders what's left to improve for the ipod nano 1g
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14:17:00pamauryI just possibly discovered a semi-hidden features of the imx233
14:17:55*ukleinek looks up
14:21:40pamauryThis is extremely weird, the OF seems to make us of it, I found a datasheet with rev 4 which describes it but with ROM TA1 and a datasheet rev 1 which does not describe it but with ROM TA4 :-/
14:22:39bertrikwhat is the hidden feature?
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14:23:33pamauryDefault First-Level Page Table
14:23:50pamaurybasically, some hardware emulates a 16Kb First-Level Page Table
14:24:01pamaurybut in fact, only a few entries are confiurable
14:24:27pamauryso if you use a simple memory scheme, you configure the whole MMU with a few bytes and it's faster than any memory
14:25:26pamaurygoogle "imx233 dflpt" will point you to the datasheet if you are interested
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14:28:21bertrikIn the early stages of a port, a flat memory model is best to start with, right?
14:29:06pamauryI don't see any advantage to using something different
14:29:19pamauryappart branch from iram to dram perhaps
14:29:24pamaurybut iram is really small
14:30:28pamauryand I can't put this fucking page table in the sdram for some reason
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15:06:31bluefoxxDoes anybody know /anything/ about the hardware-side of the LCD in the V1 series of the Sansa E200? I've got one here thats perfectly good except for a broken screen, and am entertaining ideas of converting it to an in-dash unit for a car, if I can interface a new LCD onto it...
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15:48:02CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury (r30201): imx233/fuze+: move page table to dram
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15:52:11CIA-14r30201 build result: All green
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15:58:40pamauryAm I dreaming or we indeed have nearly 40 implementation of lcd_blit_yuv ?
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16:13:26JdGordonpamaury: wouldn't yoube more worried if we had 40 copies which were vastly different?
16:14:14pamaurythat's precisely what I'm checking currently
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17:03:46pamaurythere are lots of similar-but-slightly-different implementation
17:04:01[Saint]bluefoxx: I _think_ that the Fuze V1/2 LCDs will mate happily with the E200
17:04:27[Saint](they won't have kittens or anything, though... ;))
17:05:00bluefoxxAw, and here I was hoping for a new pet :<
17:05:15bluefoxxGot any links to info on those then?
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17:06:26JdGordon[Saint]: wtf gives you that idea?
17:08:25bluefoxxI strongly suspect that my fantasies of recycling my old e200 into a rockbox-powered in-dash unit for a car will probably be on hold until I get my hands on a logic analyzer and can play around with the other two I've got...
17:11:07[Saint]trial. I replaced a screen in an e200 of mine a while ago with a screen I purchased that was supposedly a FuzeV2 LCD, and it worked happily. Unless of course it wasn't actually an FuzeV2 screen to begin with. And Fuze V1/2 screens are compatible with each other. So, if it was sold to me correctly as a FuzeV2 LCD, it should "just work" in the same respect with a V1 LCD.
17:11:13 Join stoffel [0] (~quassel@p57B4C115.dip.t-dialin.net)
17:11:22[Saint]Alternatively, I was sold an e200 LCD, and this isn't the case ;)
17:11:38bluefoxxBuying the screens on ebay I presume?
17:11:58[Saint]Nah, some guy off local forums.
17:12:09bluefoxxHum
17:12:15[Saint]Had lots of bits & pieces of many, many Sansas.
17:12:20bluefoxxscary
17:12:29bluefoxxWonder how they managed to salvage the screens
17:13:02[Saint]Dissassembly is relatively easy, correct tools are handy, but not needed.
17:13:11[Saint]A guitar pick is usually sufficient.
17:13:37bluefoxxI had no luck trying to desolder the infernal flat-flex cable with my iron and simply cut it with a knife, peeled off the plastic and then used a glob of solder and braid to clean up the pads in the end
17:13:59bluefoxx(Screen's cable was toast anyhow.)
17:15:06bluefoxxI'd think a heatgun to be useful, but I've not yet gotten myself one to test out, and am unsure of how much LCDs would agree with them...
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17:15:33[Saint]ZIF cables don't like them very much...
17:15:49[Saint]the shrink and/or distort.
17:15:52[Saint]*they
17:15:59bluefoxxOne more reason to loath them :c
17:19:57[Saint]Hmmmmm...I *really* need to get around to doing that "Start Database indexing here" patch so I can actually use the Database with the SDL application. It doesn't seem to pick up the music where it is on the system presently.
17:20:25[Saint](also handy for RaaA, of course (and possibly other targets))
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17:29:01[Saint]Does anyone know the reasoning for *not* including "Shutdown" in the main menu for RaaA? I have tried grepping logs for keywords to see if I missed a discussion about it but I can't seem to find one.
17:29:10[Saint]However, my logs are hardly complete.
17:31:01[Saint]It quite definitely takes the sting out of initialising the database the first time around. Having to launch the programme manager and force close the app isn't exactly intuitive for a newcomer, nor immediately obvious.
17:31:17 Quit powell14ski_ (Quit: powell14ski_)
17:31:50Xerionwhy does it have to be restarted in the first place?
17:32:17[Saint]I personally include shutdown in the main menu on all my targets as I don't see a reason not to have it there, but its hardly needed when there is actually another way to shut down.
17:32:55[Saint]Xerion: No idea, to be honest. There are a couple of settings that once applied require a restart.
17:33:23XerionI use rockbox on my phone to play from network shares :)
17:33:45[Saint]timestretch and the initial database init are all I can think of just offhand, there may be more.
17:33:56Xerionyesterday I succeeded for the first time to actually build the database from these
17:34:53AlexP[Saint]: Android apps don't generally
17:34:59Xerionthere's something odd btw, even when I kill the rockbox app the battery gets drained if I have played from network shares
17:35:15Xerionbut not using rockbox and leaving the network shares open doesn't do this
17:35:26AlexP[Saint]: I think bluebroth3r it was can explain more (or rasher maybe?)
17:36:16[Saint]AlexP: I understand that, but for RaaA to not require it the need to reboot to init <various things> needs to be overcome. Which would be cool on all targets.
17:36:55[Saint]otherwise the option is waiting for idle timeout, or force closing it. Neither of which seem well suited.
17:37:29rasherMaybe a "re-initialize" option under the Rockbox menu
17:38:00[Saint]rasher: clarify?
17:38:09rasherClarify what?
17:38:17Xerionyou can already use the initialize option there, but still the first time you setup the database you HAVE to kill the application and start it again for it to work
17:38:24[Saint]re-initialize...what?
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17:38:32rasherRockbox
17:38:40rasherbasically a reboot (except it's just an application)
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17:38:43Xerionjust like you HAVE to actually reboot a DAP to use the database first time
17:39:06rasherHaving a shutdown entry in the root menu would give people the wrong idea
17:39:42XerionI'd call it Exit rather than shutdown
17:39:44[Saint]I don't see how just off the bat, but I'll take your word for it.
17:39:59XerionI'm glad the custom builds actually have the option though
17:40:12rasherXerion: The point is, Android apps don't have exit buttons. And shouldn't
17:40:18Xerionsome do
17:40:19[Saint]Xerion: Nah, see...to me "Exit" doesn't imply that the application has actually been shut down.
17:40:25[Saint]Perhaps that'sjust me though.
17:40:32AlexP[Saint]: It's just you :)
17:40:34rasherXerion: but it's wrong
17:40:39AlexPWhat else would it do if you exit?
17:40:40Xerionbut still the option wouldn't be needed
17:40:56Xerionif you can initialize the database the first time without actually restarting the app
17:41:15[Saint]Yeah, untill then, wrong or not, its needed in RaaA
17:42:16rasherNot really
17:42:19XerionI don't even agree with the android philosophy of having all apps stay resident, it only makes sense for some apps :p
17:42:19evilnickAlexP: Exit _could_ imply backgrounding it
17:42:27rasherAs I said, put a "reboot" entry in the rockbox submenu
17:42:34AlexPevilnick: I don't see it myself
17:42:54*evilnick is playing devil's advocate, or [Saint]'s advocate. Or something :)
17:43:01[Saint];)
17:43:07rasherXerion: well, the point is computers are way smarter than you
17:43:30Xerionhaha
17:43:41Xerionthat doesn't even make sense
17:44:17Xerionuntill they can program themselves perhaps
17:44:21rasherWell, it's been explained on the web a thousand times. Look up articles about why task killers are bad
17:44:33rasherYour phone knows better than you when to unload an app
17:44:57Xerionthey make presumptions about what an app can be
17:45:34Xerionbut task killers usually kill stuff that IS better as a stay-resident app
17:45:40Xerionwhich makes them bad
17:45:49Xeriondoesn't mean all apps shouldn't be closed
17:50:15 Join fdinel [0] (~Miranda@modemcable036.124-131-66.mc.videotron.ca)
17:51:41scorchethe android philosophy isnt that all apps stay resident - you might want to look at how the acitivity life cycle works - this helps explain it: http://geekfor.me/faq/you-shouldnt-be-using-a-task-killer-with-android/
17:51:51scorchehowever, this is getting a bit offtopic for this channel...
17:52:31[Saint]Hmmm...the more I think about it the more I warm to the idea of having a "reboot" option in the menu somewhere for RaaA. Especially if its available to the quickscreen.
17:52:51rasherwhat no, why on earth?
17:52:55rasherit's so rarely needed
17:53:15[Saint]available to doesn't mean "defaults on"
17:53:29[Saint]there's plenty of rarely used settings that are "quickscreen-able"
17:54:59gevaertsReboot may be needed now because some options need that, but there is ongoing work to change that
17:57:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:59:59[Saint]Is anyone present in the immediate discussion able to outline exactly why it is that a reboot is needed for <some options>? Complete technical accuracy is far from necessary, just an outline, is possible so I can understand whats happening and why.
18:00
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18:00:40gevaerts[Saint]: memory allocation
18:00:55[Saint]*s/is possible/if possible/
18:01:00[Saint]gevaerts: Ah right, thanks.
18:01:40Xerionit would be odd not to have a restarting option in now, because the restarting might not be needed somewhere in the future
18:01:45Xerioncan always take it out later
18:01:57*rasher looks at kugel
18:02:30gevaertsXerion: sure. What I mean is that it probably doesn't make sense to spend too much time on it. A simple solution will work well enough for now
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19:27:30y4nIs Musepack seeking being slow and bugged a known issue?
19:28:45y4ntake a 20 minute .mpc and seek to, say, 15 minutes in. restart your device, "resume playback", it goes to 8 minute mark
19:28:50y4nalso takes some time
19:29:18y4nSV8 files here, Rockbox 3.9, Sansa Clip+
19:31:22AlexPNot that I'm aware of
19:31:28AlexPAsk bushel if you see him
19:32:05y4nok
19:33:21AlexP*buschel
19:34:21y4nis that Andree Buschmann?
19:34:25AlexPyes
19:34:37y4nthis is most excellent then :)
19:35:40AlexPHe knows a bit about musepack :)
19:35:52y4nI know, I know :)
19:57:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:51:00y4nBuschel: hi Andree
21:51:06y4n21:27 <y4n> Is Musepack seeking being slow and bugged a known issue?
21:51:07y4n21:28 <y4n> take a 20 minute .mpc and seek to, say, 15 minutes in. restart your device, "resume playback", it goes to 8 minute mark
21:51:07y4n21:28 <y4n> also takes some time
21:51:08DBUGEnqueued KICK y4n
21:51:08y4n21:29 <y4n> SV8 files here, Rockbox 3.9, Sansa Clip+
21:51:42BuschelI saw this in the logs. this is not normal of course...
21:52:25Buscheldoes this happen with v3.8 as well?
21:52:35y4nYes definitely
21:52:49Buschelonly with sv8?
21:53:01y4nhaven't tested with sv7 really
21:53:03CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
21:53:03*Buschel has only got few sv8
21:54:06y4nok I can test this
21:57:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:57:25y4nBuschel: same
21:57:33Buschelhmmm
21:58:19*Buschel searches for the sv7 with the longest playback duration that he owns
21:58:41y4nDon Davis — "Matrix Reloaded" Suite [OST The Matrix: Reloaded #2.07] (2003) is 17 minutes long
21:58:44y4nwas enough :)
21:59:11BuschelI will have some 20+ minutes Genesis songs here :)
22:00
22:00:54BuschelSupper's Ready 24:36
22:01:55Buschelyep, does seek to ~7 min instead of 15...
22:02:13Buscheleven in the sim −− which is good
22:03:35*Buschel cannot believe this was the same with v3.8
22:07:26Buschelat a first glance this looks like an overflow resuming up to ~7 min works fine. beyond the modulo part is resumed (e.g. resuming 3 min when seeking to 10 min)
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22:17:10y4ninteresting
22:17:29y4nand yes I had the same issues with 3.8
22:17:58AlexPI guess not so many people have long songs in musepack :)
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22:20:52y4npost-metal and post-rock tends to have long songs :)
22:21:13AlexPprog rock is the prime offender
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22:22:20Buschelthere's clearly an overflow happening. cannot see where, yet
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22:37:08bertrikTorne, does an ipod nano 1g also have an 4066?
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22:51:02Buschely4n: got it
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22:51:13Buschelbaaad
22:52:43y4nexcellent
22:53:08Buschelthis is not working since 16 months now
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22:56:23bertrikTorne, on my nano 1g, 4066_ISTAT has a value of about 60 by default, it goes to about 250 when plugged while holding SELECT
22:56:55CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30202): Fix musepack resume for resume positions > 7:30m.
22:59:43y4nBuschel: is this going to fix seeking delay too?
23:00
23:00:46CIA-14r30202 build result: All green
23:02:56Buschelno. mpc-resume cannot directly jump to a desired byteposition but will always need to parse from the very beginning to the desired position (parsing = skipping from frame to frame)
23:03:29kugelBuschel: might backport that fix to the 3.9 branch
23:03:39Buschelyep, on my way
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23:05:48CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30203): Backport r30202. Fixes musepack resume for resume positions > 7:30m.
23:11:08Buschely4n: how long does the resume take for you?
23:11:12y4nBuschel: I thought it was a limitation of sv7 that was dealt with in sv8?
23:11:34y4nit can take 3-5 seconds
23:12:20y4nwell not a big deal, but...
23:13:39y4nabout 10 seconds to seek to 45 min position
23:14:38Buschelbut hopefully only when seeking there for the first time ;)
23:16:06y4nmore like 15 seconds
23:16:10y4nbut yeah first time only
23:18:08Buschelsv8 *could* use another way of seeking/resuming. but for now it is still using the same principles as sv7. it is even the same function in the code
23:19:48y4noh makes sense then
23:21:36Buschelat least mp will now resume as intended :)
23:21:40Buschel*mpc
23:21:45Buschelthanks for the hint!
23:22:33y4nno problem, musepack has a special place in my heart :)
23:22:46y4nis Frank doing anything related these days?
23:24:01Buschelnot that I know of, I have totally lost contact to him since several years
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23:28:32bertrikDoes anyone know how much current a nano 1g draws when charging?
23:31:16 Quit petur (Quit: here today, gone tomorrow)
23:31:30Buschelgood night!
23:31:33 Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 3.6.18/20110614230723])
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23:32:05bertrikis the 64 MB version of the ipod video considered older or newer than the other version?
23:32:47vitorpamplonaHey guys, is there any developer doc on hacking iPod Nano 5th gen with RockBox?
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23:33:18gevaertsbertrik: didn't they come out at the same time?
23:34:06bertrikI have no idea, I just see that the 64 MB version has a different scaling factor for the battery current formula
23:34:18bertrikI wonder what formula to apply for the nano 1g
23:35:17bertrikSo I assume that apple used the same circuit for the ipod nano 1g and one of the ipod videos
23:35:26gevaertsAh, yes. I saw that too. I wonder if it's a coincidence that the "big" video is scaled by 1.5 while at the same time having a battery with 1.5 times the capacity
23:35:55AlexPvitorpamplona: No, not in particular
23:36:16AlexPvitorpamplona: There is info on the wiki about setting up a dev environment, and on some of the hardware
23:36:23AlexPBut other than that it is the source
23:36:49gevaertsvitorpamplona: you could also ask on #freemyipod. Those people concentrate on new ipods
23:37:03AlexPah yes, I missed nano
23:37:10*[7] extends his ears
23:37:13bertrikgevaerts, maybe, I think you can probably use a 1.5 times bigger charge current on a battery with 1.5 times bigger capacity, so perhaps the old scaling factor was too low for the big battery
23:37:40bertrikWhich ipod video is considered the "big" one?
23:37:57gevaerts60/80
23:38:14gevaertsi.e. the one with 8mm disks
23:38:32[7]vitorpamplona: no, there's no known exploit for the 5th gen nano so far
23:38:44vitorpamplonahum... thanks. Before I start hacking this guy I wanna know what options people have tried and what are the pitfalls
23:39:01bertrikgevaerts, I don't understand
23:39:26bertrikwe have an ipod video with 64 mb and some other one, but I don't know the other properties that changed with that
23:39:39[7]vitorpamplona: find a way to execute your own code on it, and you're mostly set
23:39:47[7]but apple has tried pretty hard to prevent that
23:41:09bertrikGrmbl, can't find anything on our wiki about that, I'll guess I'll have to reverse engineer that info from the sources
23:41:30gevaertsbertrik: ipod videos come in four models: 5G 30GB, 5G 60GB, 5.5G 30GB and 5.5G 80GB. The 30GB ones are "thin", have 5mm disks, 32MB RAM, and a 400mAh battery. The 60GB and 80GB ones are thick, have 8mm disks, 64MB RAM, and a 600mAh battery. The 5G and 5.5G differ in block size used on the disks (and LCD type, but I don't think we care about that)
23:41:53bertrikthanks
23:42:57gevaertsThat's all assuming new hardware of course. With refurbished players, anything goes
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23:43:30bertriklike putting a thin drive in a "thick" video, etc.
23:44:13 Nick dfkt_ is now known as dfkt (dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt)
23:44:27gevaertsOr swapping mainboards, which wil confuse the battery rate measurement
23:44:36bertrikgreat :)
23:46:24bertrikSo I should really do an independent current measurement to determine which battery current scaling factor I need, unfortunately I just broke my measurement cable :|
23:46:31 Part vitorpamplona
23:46:34bertrikfor the ipod nano 1g
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