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#rockbox log for 2011-08-25

00:01:01 Join sideral [0] (~sideral@rockbox/developer/sideral)
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02:00
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02:12:21CIA-14New commit by 03jethead71 (r30344): Do sync between pcmbuf volume controls without explicit IRQ masking, which is nicer and also allows pcmbuf.c to compile again as thumb code.
02:14:27 Nick Llorean1 is now known as Llorean (~DarkkOne@99-68-45-56.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
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02:14:56CIA-14r30344 build result: All green
02:20:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:27:24 Join [Saint] [0] (cb64d72d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.100.215.45)
02:49:44*[Saint] intends tyo debug why RaaA's Database doesn't find any of the music in the Google Music beta offline/streaming cache today...
02:49:54[Saint]s/tyo/to/
02:50:54[Saint]I *suspect* (and I hope I'm right, as its a relatively easy fix) that the Database hates directories with naming structures as used in this example.
02:51:12[Saint]"com.foo.bar.baz.android.music/"
02:51:48[Saint]My suspicioin is that the fullstops are doing "weird shit(TM)"
02:53:14[Saint]If RaaA streamed Google Music beta's music, or if Google Music had RaaA's playback/audio options (even with CM DSP Mania it still sounds awful) then I'd only use one...I instead, desire to marry the two to get the best of both.
02:53:44[Saint]I have a sneaking suspicion I'm not the only one that would like RaaA to play their google music beta offline cache./
02:56:34JdGordonit would certainly have its benefits :)
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02:56:52 Part [Saint]
02:57:07 Join [Saint] [0] (cb64d72d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.100.215.45)
02:58:10[Saint]I basically see Google Music beta as "Dropbox for my music" ;)
02:58:44[Saint]The player isn't a fart in the wind compared to RaaA, though. But my Filebrowser is now forever pointed at my offline cache.
03:00
03:00:19[Saint]JdGordon: What does the .AU Android Market look like?
03:00:26[Saint]Green, or Black/Charcoal?
03:00:48*[Saint] wonders when the new market rollout will be complete.
03:00:58JdGordonwrong channel
03:01:12[Saint]dammit, qwebierc bites again.
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04:00
04:20:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:39:10[Saint] /me finds Rockbox has a hard limit on file/dir structure depth/length?
04:39:32[Saint](in reference to loading a file for a theme.)
04:39:41[Saint]JdGordon: can you confirm that? ^
04:40:10[Saint]I seem to have hit some form of limit with filename length.
04:41:48[Saint]"./rockbox/icons/cabbiev2-icons-240x320x16-application.bmp" fails, but "/rockbox/icons/cabbiev2-icons.bmp" is fine, apparently.
04:42:47JdGordonyes and no
04:43:51*[Saint] dusts himself off and puts the matter to bed then...
04:44:00[Saint]"that answers everything" ;)
04:44:23JdGordongimme a few min :)
04:44:28JdGordonthere is a hard limit...
04:44:49JdGordonIIRC its around 32 for the cabbiev2-icons-240x320x16-application bit
04:45:25[Saint]I also spot RaaA giving me some hillarious notifications in the "ongoing" notification panel.
04:45:34[Saint]"Generic Keypress"
04:45:50[Saint]...thanks, that's worthy of posting an icon about, I pressed a key ;)
04:46:48[Saint]I haven't updated my build in ages, something's gone wonky wither with RaaA or changing over to Cm.
04:46:52[Saint]I suspect the latter.
04:47:01[Saint]*either.
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04:48:59[Saint]JdGordon: So, if I understand you explanation correctly, its not necessarily that the total length has been exceeded, but rather I exceeded the length allowed in a specific section?
04:49:45JdGordonhave a look at your config.cfg
04:52:44JdGordonif the line doesnt have the full filename then yes you hit that limiti
04:55:26JdGordonyeah, 32 chars
04:55:58 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: .)
04:56:00JdGordonyou're using 37
05:00
05:00:16JdGordon[Saint]: simplest 2 solutions: 1) rename it :) 2) settings.h change MAX_FILENAME to something bigger
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05:05:26tmztn/wi 45
05:14:36[Saint]Yeah...I just need to differentiate the iconset in some way from the "non application" builds.
05:15:00JdGordonwhy is there a difference?
05:15:20JdGordonand you can use buildzip.pl to do that
05:15:59[Saint]the RaaA builds use a different iconset presently, at least the 480x800 (and very shortly the others will, when the iconsets are finished).
05:16:20JdGordonok, why?
05:16:28[Saint]I was pretty sure the consensus was that that iconset wasn't "right" for the main builds until its been sorted for all targets.
05:17:01JdGordonI remember it as kugel being his usual dafkvanik self on this topic and noone else caring
05:17:07[Saint]its a small step in the preparation of me eventually doing a lot of shiny new iconsets.
05:17:35[Saint]So, it kinda makes sense, but I can just as easily use the tango set and change the naming scheme when its "needed".
05:18:05[Saint]Presently, only the 480x800 port has its "own" iconset.
05:18:19[Saint]I'm not terribly sure its too usable without it.
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05:18:44[Saint]12x12 icons look hillarious in the SDL port for that res.
05:19:34JdGordonthe sooner I finish skinned list support the better... the skin should draw the icons, would make it much easier all round
05:19:59*[Saint] nods.
05:20:10[Saint].icons is *horribly* broken.
05:20:34[Saint]chucking out the viewers system will be a great day.
05:20:41[Saint]...I *hope* that's possible?
05:20:54JdGordonhow is that supposed to work though?
05:21:07JdGordonalso, i just realised skinned list breaks list colours support
05:21:25[Saint]I have a .icons file I'm using that "almost works", but quirks in the viewers system make it impossible to actually display an icon for everything.
05:21:25 Join Horschti [0] (~Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht)
05:21:31[Saint]...or, the *right* icon.
05:22:05[Saint]I was hoping skinned lists could magically support viewer icons, guess not. ..."meh".
05:22:16[Saint]Dreams are free ;)
05:22:20JdGordonthey do.. sort of
05:22:34JdGordonthe skin is given the icon number like the normal lists
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05:22:48[Saint]That could work then,
05:22:59[Saint]I'd love to get rid of the .icons file.
05:23:06[Saint]its horible and broken.
05:23:46JdGordonI'm guessing I should know/remember what that file does...
05:24:04[Saint]I regret, in a lot of ways, looking into the icon system. I'm not actually sure how it *does* manage to display the right icon in some places.
05:24:10[Saint]Or why it fails to in others.
05:24:47JdGordonare you talking about file type icons? or the icons used by menus?
05:24:49[Saint]JdGordon: the .icons file assigns what icon a viewer should get based on its extension.
05:24:58[Saint]filetype icons.
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05:25:17JdGordonok
05:25:31[Saint]the menu icon system is all good. Viewers is a mess.
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06:00
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06:20:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:24:06*[Saint] still isn't sure he likes putting all the Settings stuff in System.
06:24:19[Saint]the reverse of that is what I had in mind.
06:24:25[Saint]ie. it still being called Settings.
06:25:49[Saint]but "System - Settigns - Foo" also works.
06:26:08JdGordonno, its "System - Foo settings"
06:27:40[Saint]then I do, indeed, dislike it being called System.
06:27:53[Saint]whats the need to rename it, something I'm missing probably.
06:28:00[Saint]looking at diifs on my phone isn't fun.
06:30:01[Saint]here's what I had in mind: "moving Time & Data into Settings, then shifting/renaming the "System" menu into "Settings - About - <stuff>""
06:31:07[Saint]"About" doesn't *really* belong in "Settings"...but, I'm not sure it has a place on the main menu list anymore.
06:31:24[Saint]though it wouldn't be a tregedy if it was there.
06:31:35[Saint]*tragedy.
06:32:51[Saint]making "About" the very last entry in the Settings menu seems sane to me, I'm sure that will recieve comments from those who disagree.
06:33:49JdGordonbecause everything in the settings menu makes some sense under system, everything in system makes *absolutly no sense* in settings
06:33:50[Saint]I suppose it makes more sense if it were to be called System off the main menu as opposed to Settings, though.
06:35:15[Saint]right, yeah...I was just thinking that also. But I do like the idea of what *was* the System Menu becoming "About" in the new System/Settings mixed menu.
06:35:59JdGordonwhy?
06:36:19JdGordonI agree with the view that rockbox info is good for blind and so should be as few presses as posible
06:36:25[Saint]"System - About - Debug/Credits/Rockbox Info"...it just seems to, I dunno, keep them together.
06:36:27JdGordondebug shouldnt be built byu default
06:36:41JdGordonrunning time is a waste of code/ram and should be removed
06:37:08[Saint]I use that menu *reasonably* often.
06:37:14[Saint]...once a month or so.
06:37:19JdGordonfor what?
06:37:44[Saint]runtime vs battery stuff.
06:39:26JdGordonyou do your own build and could enable it anyway
06:39:49[Saint]debug menu I don't care a fuck about, but, if it *is* switched on (ie. for non-release builds?) I think it would find a good home in "System - About - Debug"
06:40:32[Saint]credits, sure...you can just launch the plugin...*but* almost all apps have some form of About/Credits thing in the main menu.
06:41:20 Join Azurus [0] (~Azurus@dpc6935172081.direcpc.com)
06:41:26[Saint]so yeah...I'm very much in favour of your changes *if* the About menu were to be included in System.
06:41:32AzurusHey all
06:41:52[Saint](the About menu being what the System menu was, sans Time & Date)
06:42:09JdGordon[Saint]: really, and "About" menu is a compleltly pointless exptra press/lang string
06:42:19AzurusNeed some help in getting Rockbox installed to my Sansa Clip +
06:42:23[Saint]I disagree.
06:42:47JdGordonI'm not saying the items arent there... im saying they dont need to be one level down
06:43:03JdGordonAzurus: you probably want to ask a question then
06:43:34[Saint]I realize that, I just like the idea of "About" being the very last option in System, as is the case with almost all apps preferences/options lists.
06:43:40[Saint]JdGordon: ^
06:43:41AzurusWell I have the installer, but from there I am stuck. It is asking for a bin file of the bootloader that I cannot get
06:44:14[Saint]Azurus: Why can't you get it, does it not supply you with the link?
06:44:20*[Saint] was reasonably sure it did.
06:44:57[Saint]JdGordon: Moving those items into "About" also gets them "out of the way", and shortens the total list length.
06:45:01[Saint](a good thing, IMO)
06:45:03AzurusI downloaded the zip files and opened them, but every time I try to install it, I get errors saying its not the right one
06:45:16 Join sideral [0] (~sideral@rockbox/developer/sideral)
06:45:42[Saint]Azurus: Have you tried a manual install?
06:46:13AzurusI am new to this, and I was advised that manual install if you do not know what you are doing is sevearly unadvisable
06:48:21[Saint]do the install once more with RBUtil, and after it fails go to the Stsyem Trace menu and paste the output here in pastebin
06:48:33[Saint]*System Trace.
06:48:54[Saint]That will(should) give more of an idea of what is failing where, and why.
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06:52:28Azurushttp://pastebin.com/m0Ns4zuU
06:54:46 Join Scromple [0] (~Simon@115-64-195-104.static.tpgi.com.au)
06:55:40[Saint]Azurus: Its unable to find the OF file, apparently, is the OF file present?
06:56:05AzurusI do not know, I am pretty much clueless on it at this point.
06:57:16[Saint]Have you downloaded, and provided when asked, a copy of the original Sansa firmware?
06:57:52[Saint]RBUtil will ask you to show it where the original firmware is on your system during the installation.
06:57:59AzurusThe website has the updater and not the original firmware
06:58:24[Saint]I believe you are incorrect ;)
06:58:26Azurushttp://forums.sandisk.com/t5/Clip-Clip/Sansa-Clip-Firmware-Update-01-02-15/td-p/150227
06:59:36[Saint]"Firmware Download for All Regions - Click Here to Download"
06:59:43[Saint]http://mp3support.sandisk.com/firmware/clipplus/clipplus01.02.15.zip
06:59:54AzurusI have that and it is not in there
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07:00
07:00:37[Saint]what do you mean "its not in there"?
07:01:18AzurusWell I tryed it and its giving me the same error
07:05:18Azurushttp://pastebin.com/ELQLV98BHere is the pastebin of those results
07:05:31Azurushttp://pastebin.com/ELQLV98B Here is the pastebin of those results
07:05:37 Join Scromple [0] (~Simon@115-64-195-104.static.tpgi.com.au)
07:08:33[Saint]Can you please outline the steps you are taking during installation. Main things of interest are are you passing the location of the bootloader (bootloader-clipplus.sansa) and the original firmware you've downloaded and extracted (clppa.bin) when asked to by the installer?
07:09:52AzurusWhen it asks the first time for a bootloader, I put the bootloader-clipplus.sansa into it and I get the error, and it wont let me go any further
07:09:58AzurusSimple as that
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07:27:28[Saint]JdGordon: If I read your diff correctly...you'll have "Rockbox Info/Sound Settings/Playback Settings/Settings/...." under the System Menu?
07:27:43JdGordonyes
07:28:26[Saint]Why not put Sound Settings and Playback settings (and Theme Settings, actually) under "System - Settings"?
07:28:52JdGordonthat's the way I'd do it if people would just shut up and let me :)
07:30:01AzurusGuessing my issue is a stumper?
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07:37:20[Saint]JdGordon: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HP7_TmvNdTlyHUdhmMzDRhK8MMcdOZuL6oDT−−1UMLs/edit?hl=en_US
07:37:29[Saint](that's my idea, anyway)
07:38:27[Saint]Azurus: For me, yes.
07:38:32*[Saint] summons bluebrother
07:38:35*Azurus noddles
07:38:41AzurusHeh
07:39:07[Saint]Llorean: Care to comment on the above link?
07:39:18[Saint]Yourself and JdGordon are able to edit that doc.
07:43:13[Saint]I just moved "Playlist Catalogue" up, as I think it should be with the other browsers...
07:43:56[Saint]as of *right now*, that Google Docs link represents my perfect idea of the menu layout.
07:44:35 Part Azurus ("Leaving")
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07:46:01[Saint]Edit: Moved System Down, all playback/browser items are now together.
07:47:08[Saint]with "Resume Playback" square in the middle, (assume Bookmars is off in the main menu, then its slightly under the middle)
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07:50:52[Saint]JdGordon: When you can, have a look at that google docs link and let me know what you think.
07:51:08[Saint]I'd be quite happy if that were to be committed.
07:51:52[Saint]Llorean: When you pop in, or see this, you review it also since you expressed interest in re-doing the main menus when it first cam eup.
07:53:58JdGordSaint: that's pretty much my ideal layout also, except system - about
07:54:51[Saint]I think the "About" menu just cleans up the System menu, personally.
07:55:43JdGordI also think it is backwards. Settings should be a submenu, not about
07:57:09[Saint]I agree there, but making Settings a submenu increases keyclicks.
07:57:22[Saint]*s/agree there/agree there somewhat/
07:58:12[Saint]Which is why I opted to "tidy up" the menu with the "About" menu to conatin the "system-ish" stuff.
07:58:38[Saint]*s/to contat/to contain/
07:59:23[Saint]I'm very much in favour of moving Playlist Catalogue up, compared to your patch.
07:59:55[Saint]I think it has a better placement not being divided from its similar menu items by System.
08:00
08:00:02JdGordMy origional suggestion did that and got shit-canned
08:00:18[Saint]if its moved up as I have it in the google doc link, all the playback/browser stuff is together.
08:00:32[Saint]which is only sane, IMO.
08:00:41[Saint]I'd be all for it if you committed that.
08:01:29[Saint]fwiw, I don't think it was a bad change at all...and it wasn't "shit canned".
08:01:43[Saint]It was just viewed as unrelated to the moving of the T&D menu
08:02:04[Saint]now that the objective is redoing the entire menu, it *is* related and its a sane change.
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08:08:38JdGordon[Saint]: I've added my version to your doc
08:08:45JdGordonnot that it matters really
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08:20:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:29:46 Join sideral [0] (~sideral@rockbox/developer/sideral)
08:31:47wodzehh, rk27xx datasheet is definitely wrong in description how clocks are derived on this chip :-/
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08:39:53JdGordonsideral: to be clear, the sleep timer setting placement is only an issue because t&d is in system? otherwise all its settings would have no problem being in t&d?
08:40:30sideralJdGordon: yes, that's my understanding
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09:37:02JdGordonhttp://pastebin.com/uvaBL11Q <- pastebin version of the gdocs main menu layout discussion from an hour ago
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09:41:17JdGordonhttp://pastebin.com/yhhFfZsu <- better version, the above one mangled it a bit
09:53:23n1swhat was/is the purpose of running time?
09:54:12*God_Eater tries to infer redness in the pastebin post.
09:54:31JdGordonthe items with "settings" in the name
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10:00:20jhMikeShmmm...clumping so much under "System"?
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10:05:30JdGordNot really.. add 2 items
10:05:49JdGordRunning time and bedug shouldn't be there
10:07:38jhMikeSRecording Settings is missing
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10:10:02JdGordIf concensus says just move the settings menu into system as a submenu i'd be happy with that also, which settles the issues just as well
10:12:49jhMikeSthat's what your proposal looks like. I might rename it "System and Configuration" or something, just to lead people to the right place faster
10:12:54n1si prefer merging them over settings in a submenu
10:13:06[Saint]jhMikeS: that's FAR too long
10:13:17[Saint]it wouldn't fit on all targets without scrollong.
10:13:26[Saint]main menu items shouldn't need to scroll, IMO
10:13:29jhMikeSwell, find good equivalent
10:13:34[Saint]*scrolling
10:13:44[Saint]We did, "System" ;)
10:14:01jhMikeSwhat's a system? :P
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10:15:13jhMikeScrap, I don't know. somehow it should say in effect, "Options are here!", plus other crap you probably don't care about
10:16:28jhMikeSI could be out of touch with in crowd and maybe "system" does imply that
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10:16:42JdGordI really don't think people will have a hard time finding settings under ssytem
10:16:52n1si think system is pretty good, it's fairly vague but indicates "settings and stuff" to me at least
10:19:13jhMikeSIt's sort of like sansa firmware then
10:22:02jhMikeSwhat's this talk of no debug menu? I spend more time in that screen than any other besides WPS?
10:23:28God_Eaterno debug menu in *releases*
10:23:38God_Eaterat least, that's what I understoof
10:23:40jhMikeShmmm
10:23:45God_Eaterkeep it in builds
10:25:53God_Eateralthough, that would be a pain in the ass if someone does find an issue in a release
10:25:53jhMikeSperhaps unlock it in releases in case there's an issue where it would help?
10:25:53God_Eateryeah - some secret key in a config file?
10:25:53jhMikeSyeah, just a value to show it
10:26:46jhMikeSor, a keypress at boot?
10:27:42JdGordThere is nothing of value in there outside of in dev builds
10:27:42JdGordSo disable it from compile but much it easy to enable
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10:29:50[Saint]somelike like "if .debug is present in /, enable"
10:29:50*n1s is reminded of the scan disk for free space feature
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10:30:21[Saint]a magic file is better than a config option, imo.
10:32:13jhMikeSI could go for that too
10:32:23[Saint]perhaps even have a file ".nodebug" that gets included in releases, but can be removed (if asked) for debug purposes.
10:33:17[Saint]So instead of a file being placed to enable it, simply remove one that's already there/
10:33:28[Saint]s///?/
10:34:18n1sif we go for something like the first varaint in JdGordon's pastebin i don't think keeping the debug menu always visible is a problem
10:36:12jhMikeStake a poll of who's in favor of hiding and who isn't, and show it randomly in proportion to the results :P
10:37:00[Saint]n1s: That's *my* layout ;)
10:37:07[Saint]Jd's in the second of the two.
10:37:22[Saint]Personally (unsurprisingly) I think mine is better ;)
10:37:34n1sstill in his pastebin tho
10:37:53n1si wonder if that disk space scan feture has been lost
10:38:05jhMikeS[Saint]: Is that like "about phone"?
10:38:22 Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
10:38:30n1siirc you pressed select in the rockbox info screen but i'm not sure it was there
10:38:41[Saint]Yeah just pissing about ;), buts its good you mentioned it....the reason I put those things in the "About" menu under system is to get them out of the way.
10:38:53[Saint]Out of the menu items people are more likely to use.
10:39:08[Saint]JdGordon and I can't see eye-to-eye on the "About" menu/
10:39:22[Saint]I very firmly want it, he does not.
10:39:59 Quit God_Eater (Quit: Page closed)
10:40:05[Saint]I don't think *any* menu items should be removed.
10:40:09jhMikeSI think I like it, "settings" could even be removed from the strings
10:40:22n1sonly thin i would hold against it is that it's one step deeper to get to the info screen, which is useful for the voice interface to get battery level
10:40:26[Saint]We can still place all those items under "About" and not have them bother those who don't use them.
10:40:37[Saint]Just make sure that About is the very last item in the list.
10:42:11*jhMikeS wouldn't mind groupings in menus
10:43:44n1sah the dsik scan is still there, just not on sim. That should really be in a menu so people can find it
10:43:44[Saint]That, and, pretty much all software these days has an "About" menu in its preferences.
10:44:44[Saint]so...yeah, I think we should group what *was* "System" (less Time & Date) into "About" and nest it as the last item under System.
10:44:51[Saint]If I get the time and inclination, I'll make a patch doing exactly that.
10:45:35jhMikeSwhich is more likely, the time or inclination? :)
10:45:36 Quit Bagder (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
10:47:16[Saint]jhMikeS: Inclination.
10:47:16[Saint]Time, is a valuable commodity these days ;)
10:47:16jhMikeSI have to fight hard for it now :(
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11:00
11:03:29 Quit evilnick (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
11:09:51JdGordonJust incase it wasnt clear.. I really dont mind debug staying in the builds if we dont care about clutter
11:10:09JdGordonI do think putting the current system menu in settings as "about" is utterly backwards though
11:10:20jhMikeScompared to what?
11:10:42JdGordonmy prefered way which is making the curent settings menu a submenu of system
11:11:00JdGordon(equally prefered to just merging to two menus outright)
11:16:59[Saint]JdGordon: I think that the "About" menu is needed to reduce clutter.
11:17:09JdGordonit is backwards and wrong
11:17:18[Saint]It makes it so that the items more likely to be used are "right there".
11:17:32[Saint]Its not backwards or wrong at all.
11:17:39[Saint]that's just your opinion.
11:18:00JdGordonyes
11:18:08JdGordonmy opinion says it is wrong :)
11:18:13*JdGordon eating dinner, back soonish
11:18:16[Saint]I see it as more "wrong" to have menu items that won't get used nearly as often cluttering up the settings.
11:18:50jhMikeSthen I could put most of them under "about" ::)
11:19:04*n1s too :)
11:19:29[Saint]Seriously though...just to ease my mind.
11:19:45[Saint]Am I the *only* one that thinks the "About" menu is a good idea?
11:19:49jhMikeSno
11:19:55jhMikeS+1
11:19:56[Saint]\o/
11:20:21n1syeah i like the about menu better than stuffing everything in the same menu
11:20:38[Saint]2>1, "About" it is! ;)
11:20:46[Saint]ohhh*3>1
11:20:52[Saint]that's a clear win, ;)
11:21:56jhMikeSdamn, no steering board? Jd can still appeal
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11:42:18*gevaerts also likes about
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11:43:02jhMikeSso that's 4 in favor, 1 against, so far
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11:45:21JdGordonbest reason against "about" is it makes rockbox info harder to get to for blind people
11:45:26JdGordon*which is apparently important*
11:45:52gevaertsHow does it do that?
11:46:05*[Saint] doesn't believe it makes it harder at all.
11:46:10[Saint]I think that's BS, tbh.
11:46:27JdGordon[Saint]'s proposal puts it inside another submenu which is not the first item in its menu
11:46:36JdGordonrockbox info is the first item in system now
11:46:37[Saint]As long as said blind person R's the F'ing M...all is well.
11:46:53[Saint]then make it first in the "About" menu ;)
11:47:07JdGordonabout is not the first item
11:47:17[Saint]no...it isn't.
11:47:28[Saint]But with Voiced lists, I *really* don't think this is an issue.
11:47:32*jhMikeS thinks [Saint] suggested *changing* that?
11:48:34[Saint]With voiced lists, and a decent manual...which we have both...I don't think it matters a fuck where anything is to a blind user.
11:48:39*JdGordon also contends that "rockbox info" and "debug menu" are more insteresting for everyone than the settings items after the initial setup
11:48:52[Saint]as long as its not literally buring under a million sub-menus, which it isn't.
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11:49:37[Saint]JdGordon: "More Interesting" still doesn't mean I want it cluttering up my Settings.
11:49:45jhMikeSthe manual should really not be a necessity; things should just "make sense" (exepct for "Caption Backlight" which never will)
11:49:55JdGordonmore interesting means i want less button presses to get to it
11:49:59[Saint]The "About" menu clearly seperates settings, and info.
11:50:00[Saint]this is needed IMO
11:56:24[Saint]JdGordon: With bookmarks, I don't think that's an argument.
11:56:24[Saint]s/bookmarks/shortcuts/
11:56:24JdGordondo we have shortcuts?
11:56:24JdGordonno
11:56:24[Saint]Errr..yeah we do.
11:56:24DBUGEnqueued KICK [Saint]
11:56:24[Saint]Ah...its only for files.
11:56:24[Saint]that could be fixed.
11:56:24jhMikeSmore hotkeys?
11:56:24JdGordonnot in the main menu
11:56:24jhMikeSlol, "WPS Hot"..."File Browser Hot" (in voice)
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11:56:24***Alert Mode level 1
11:56:24[Saint]jhMikeS: The initial proposal for Hotkey was to allow *any* item to sbe set as a Hotkey option.
11:56:24***Alert Mode level 2
11:56:24[Saint]But Blue-Dude fell off the map and never finished it.
11:56:24***Alert Mode level 3
11:56:24[Saint]I see there being more pros to the About menu than cons personally.
11:56:24***Alert Mode level 4
11:56:24[Saint]I really don't think its an issue for blind users.
11:56:24***Alert Mode level 5
11:56:24[Saint]and devs can order the menu however the hell they want, so I don't think "more interesting" menus is a real argument either.
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11:56:24jhMikeSlast thing I was discussing with Blue-Dude was proper way to implement multichannel audio
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11:56:24DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon
11:56:24JdGordonyeah, but then it comes down to *who* is going to commit it....
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11:57:29jhMikeSit was all in personal email at that
11:57:29[Saint]I would expect the settings to be the most important part of the System menu, and should be a: uncluttered, or b: at the very least all the settings should be at the top of the list, if "About" *really* gets opposition.
11:57:36[Saint](which, at this point, I think my count sees people overwhelmingly in favour of the "About" menu)
12:00
12:01:37[Saint](from those who have commented, anyway)
12:01:37jhMikeSI think menus should either have grouping or be short so all items can be groked at a glance
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12:01:37[Saint]jhMikeS: The "About" menu in System does both ;) Groups all settings together and makes the System menu have 3 less entries.
12:01:37[Saint]well...4 less entries and one addition of the About menu itself.
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12:01:37jhMikeSwhat about dividers in menus to add space to clusters of items?
12:01:37jhMikeS*space between
12:01:37DBUGEnqueued KICK jhMikeS
12:01:37jhMikeSrecoding settings is not nice to look at for one
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12:03:06[Saint]jhMikeS: not currently possible.
12:03:06 Quit esperegu (Remote host closed the connection)
12:03:06[Saint]It could be done, but *only* (presently) by doing the menu completely with the skin code, not with system menus.
12:03:06jhMikeSwell, I *was* suggesting a bit of additional functionality
12:04:00CtcpIgnored 4 channel CTCP requests in 5 minutes and 13 seconds at the last flood
12:04:00*[Saint] would like to see multiline menu entries.
12:04:09[Saint]ie. the menu item, and a description below it...think Android.
12:05:29jhMikeSgood for big screens, on a clip, not so good. of course skins could adjust things to what's appropriate for the display
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12:12:02*jhMikeS thinks UI should be factored away from core features and native graphics and widgets should be used
12:12:11JdGordonyes
12:13:59jhMikeSboil it down to the "rockbox engine", just add UI :)
12:16:23JdGordonwell, then it boils down to 4 people who like [Saint]'s implementation, and me who has a patch ready to go... im not going to commit his because i think its wrong, but im not going to stop someone else doing that
12:16:24jhMikeSmaybe that's what kugel should do for next GSoC
12:17:40jhMikeSJdGordon: no, you must implement it, chop chop
12:18:38[Saint]...well, I respect your position JdGordon ...but I also hope you're not going to commit the patch you have.
12:18:45[Saint]there's clear opposition against it.
12:19:19JdGordonmy point was that noone else seems to care enough to do anything else
12:19:42[Saint]If I *could* manipulate the menus, it'd be done.
12:20:23[Saint]the fact I can't isn;t a reason for you to commit something that damn near everyone that's commented objects to.
12:20:57JdGordonI didnt say i was going to commit mine
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12:21:59[Saint]I'm sure sideral will do the menu for me if you don't cae and do it first (unlikely).
12:22:18[Saint]The menu system just bugs the shit out of me, I don't feel comfortable in that code.
12:22:38[Saint]*s/cae/cave/
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12:32:04GigaBrickHey, guys, I was wondering if anyone knew where to look to include the "score" value as one of the tags the database uses
12:36:40[Saint]GigaBrick: google tagnavi_custom
12:37:10GigaBrickI did, it doesn't list the score as being a supported tag
12:37:33GigaBrickI was just looking for a good pointer of where to look in the source for the database code to start trying to get it supported
12:39:22GigaBrickMy mistake, just found "autoscore"
12:40:22GigaBrickAll right, that makes that a lot easier :P
12:43:04GigaBrickStill wouldn't hurt to know where the database code was though, I've been wanting to take a peek at it
12:43:38bertrikGigaBrick, it's in tagcache.c IIRC
12:44:37GigaBrick:) Thanks
12:45:47Slasherithat's the engine, UI part is in tagtree.c
12:46:59*[Saint] fights with the menu code and gets fucked off.
12:47:53[Saint]more fucked off that a person that could do it easily, won't, as its "wrong" (despite it being clearly favoured).
12:48:17[Saint]...the joy of FOSS ;)
12:48:30jhMikeSwell, make him an offer he can't refuse
12:49:08[Saint]the only thing that could possibly be is "I'm sorry, we're all wrong and you're right" ;)
12:49:38[Saint]followed by "please commit the version you have that all but yourself dislike"
12:50:05[Saint]I'm certain that offer would be accepted in a hearbeat. :D
12:50:08jhMikeSafter that, it would be just a matter of a tweak
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12:51:15[Saint]Its not as simpleas I thought...I'm perfectly capable of moving items around existing menus...but I've NFI how to create (or where to create) the new "About" menu.
12:51:21[Saint]*simple as
12:51:39jhMikeSthe same way the other ones are
12:52:21jhMikeSMAKE_MENU
12:52:29[Saint]I don't understand why some meus get their own file completely, while others are defined in bulk in one file.
12:53:05God_Eaterfor consistency ;)
12:53:08[Saint]there's several important factors I don't *quite* understand about the menu structure...someone that actually does understand it needs to do this. Its above my head.
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12:53:54*jhMikeS does it then pretty forgets how afterwords each time
12:54:16***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:54:33kugeldid sideral (or even the original author) make that patch so we can commit it already?
12:55:01[Saint]kugel: the menus have been holding it up, I think.
12:55:22[Saint]We came up with a menu structure that 4/5 of us agree on here: http://pastebin.com/yhhFfZsu
12:55:27kugelwhat? jdgordons proposal?
12:55:35[Saint]someone just needs to make the adjustments to the menu now.
12:55:46[Saint]Are you any good at menu editing kugel? ;)
12:56:05[Saint]kugel: My proposal, slightly edited from jd's original.
12:56:10[Saint]have a look at the pastebin.
12:56:20kugelthat's unrelated and needn't hinder that patch
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12:56:46[Saint]Well, I'm not sure where sideral's got to.
12:57:00[Saint]he was given the "all clear" to commit a few days ago I thought.
12:57:13kugelffs, why does everone want to swap resume playback and playlist
12:57:14kugelcan't you just leave that out?
12:57:19[Saint]it was decided menu stuff could easily come after this, I thought it would go in...but hasn't yet.
12:57:58[Saint]kugel: I think its important...it places all the methods of searching for files and playback at the top of the menu.
12:58:00kugelI thought that redesign is planned for shortly prior to the next release. I don't see why it now should block the sleep timer patch
12:58:09*JdGordon is blocking the sleep timer commit untill the main menu is sorted.... moving settings around after commit on a new feature is not acceptable
12:58:13kugeldespite it's not clear the redesign is wanted at all
12:58:23[Saint]its silly having playlist catalogue seperated from them by "Settings/System"
12:58:39[Saint]kugel: errrrr...yes it is.
12:58:49[Saint]I thought it was *very* clear.
13:00
13:00:06kugelit was clear a few of you want that, yes
13:00:32[Saint]Of those who have bothered to comment, more people are fore than against.
13:00:37[Saint]I count that as decided.
13:00:47kugelit's incredible you're still sneaking in that item swap that's completely unrelated to the system
13:00:48[Saint]those that don't bother to coment obviously don't care.
13:01:16pixelmaafter 1 day?
13:01:19[Saint]what swap are you talking about exactly?
13:01:28[Saint]moving playlist catalogue up?
13:01:33God_EaterI don't like having Playlist Catalogue moved above resume playback either
13:01:38pixelmaI'd like to comment but will be offline for the next 5 days
13:01:44jhMikeSput a poll on the site's front page? :)
13:01:47God_Eaterit's our *least* intuitive feature imp
13:02:15[Saint]what's wrong with playlist catalogue?
13:02:31God_Eaterplaylists you create don't end up there automatically
13:02:35[Saint]As well, what's wrong with grouping ways to view files/commence playback in the menu?
13:02:47[Saint]God_Eater: yeah they do...
13:02:53God_Eaterno they don't
13:02:59kugelsomeone needs to explain to me why the menu structure is now so overly important, while nobody cared the previous 10 years
13:03:04[Saint]did you miss the huge re-vamp of the playlist catalogue system?>
13:03:06pixelmaGod_Eater: I believe that was changed not long ago
13:03:37God_Eaterargh - sorry folks - gotta go - if I'm now wrong about that - I retract argument - but still don't like the move
13:03:50God_EaterI use resume playback before *any* other feature int he main menu
13:04:40jhMikeSkugel: did you see FS #12241?
13:04:41fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12241 3Voice menus stop working after return to menu from recording screen (bugs, new)
13:04:57[Saint]kugel: the sleep timer made it apparent the menu needed to be tweaked. Several of us decided that this is the time to stop avoiding the fact the the main menu is completely unintuitive and poorly laid out.
13:05:12[Saint]As the menu was being touched, this was seen as the opportune time.
13:05:18[Saint]its explained clearly in the ML
13:05:45kugelit's not explained that your new fancy idea now also blocks this patch
13:06:00pixelmabut pleeeaase don't rush anything, I really prefer something well thought through if the main menu structure will change.
13:06:12[Saint]I didn't think it did... JdGordon actively blocking it is new to me.
13:06:18pixelmaanyway, gotta go :\
13:06:29kugelt&d can be moved to settings regardless of whether settings and systems are merged or not
13:06:41[Saint]pixelma: I don't intend to. I'm against JdGordon's patch being rushed in, but for more personal reasons.
13:06:54[Saint](re: rushing things)
13:08:12kugelI don't understand why it should be blocked
13:08:20kugelwhere t&d is is unrelated to the redisgn
13:08:30kugelit'll end up in the new menu regardless
13:08:43JdGordonwhich as likely as not wont happen
13:10:10[Saint]kugel: pixelma there's a proposed menu layout I created ( JdGordon also) in Google Docs here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HP7_TmvNdTlyHUdhmMzDRhK8MMcdOZuL6oDT−−1UMLs/edit?hl=en_US , please feel free to edit it, but please don't edit the two layouts that are there, add your own layout to the bottom if you wish to edit it so that people can see the clear differences between the proposals.
13:10:46kugelwhat do you mean?
13:10:52[Saint]feel free to add comments as to why your particular changes have pros/cons.
13:11:29[Saint]re "what I mean"...I'm unsure how to make that any more clear.
13:12:42[Saint]The main menu *will* change...if you want input on how it should change, ...edit that doc and add a layout that you think is "right" so that we can all see it and discuss it.
13:13:14[Saint]I think its easy to forget who wants what without a mockup of the menu layout.
13:14:00sideralkugel, Saint: I was waiting for a couple more days to see whether the Time&Date menu position was going to be sorted out before committing the sleep-timer stuff. That wait is almost over now.
13:14:23*gevaerts thinks that JdGordon can't really block the sleep timer commit without being hypocritical
13:14:31sideralJdGordon: I won' let the sleep-timer commit be blocked any longer by this endless discussion
13:15:03kugel[Saint]: that was for JdGordon
13:16:15gevaertssideral: I don't think anyone who says both "I'll commit this because it's the only way to get comments" and "I'll block this other commit other people want" can be taken seriously anyway
13:16:40JdGordoni didnt say that
13:16:46sideralJdGordon: The plan I posted on the mailing list stands, and I don't see you NAKing it except it doesn't go far enough for your tastes
13:17:08gevaertsJdGordon: you did
13:17:26[Saint]sideral: also, please fell free to review the google doc created for the larger main menu changes yourself also.
13:17:31JdGordoni said i wouldnt commit a version i disagreed with... not that i would block that
13:17:44*JdGordon is on the phone
13:18:14*gevaerts wants to know how JdGordon will explain that "JdGordon is blocking the sleep timer commit untill the main menu is sorted" does not mean "JdGordon is blocking the sleep timer commit untill the main menu is sorted
13:18:17[Saint]you said you were actively blocking the sleep timer though, no?
13:18:32[Saint]Ah, gevaerts said it better.
13:19:23JdGordoni said im blocking sleep timer untill the main menu is sorted..... which is easy
13:19:41sideralSaint: I won't have time to contribute much to the larger menu and settings reorganization project. But I'd be willing to review it when it's a little more progressed, if its contributors would like to get it reviewed prior to the final poll (they should)
13:19:57gevaertsJdGordon: so you're the sole arbiter of what can be committed and what can't?
13:20:31kugelJdGordon: sorting alphabetically? that's easy indeed
13:21:06[Saint]that was my idea...I was fairly confident that wasn't happening.
13:21:58JdGordonyou're all idiots sometimes..... read the mailing list from the last contentius dispute....
13:22:40gevaertsYes, it's a good thing we have you as the one non-idiot
13:22:41kugelJdGordon: I don't think you're in a position to block the sleep timer patch (not in any better position that every other committer anyway)
13:23:12 Part JdGordon
13:23:26*[Saint] can't see for the life of him the latest "contentious dispute".
13:23:55[Saint]the only contentious thing I see is the suggestion that changes will be committed come hell or high water.
13:23:58Llorean[Saint]: My comment on the link regarding the layout of those menus is that I don't see why you guys are still even working on / talking about them?
13:24:19LloreanDidn't we decided to try for a global menu reordering? That's likely to eliminate some of those categories entirely, and merge or split others.
13:24:52LloreanIt seems like a waste of work to worry about the ordering of a list we basically have established we'd like to eliminate, unless the plan to eliminate it falls through.
13:25:24kugelI'm still not convinced the redesign is more than a quick idea, and therefore doubt that it happens at all (whether I like it or not), so it should definitely not block the sleep timer one
13:26:14[Saint]as long as no one has to go to two places in order to use the sleep timer, I don't see why it can't go in.
13:26:32[Saint]this involves moving time & date to settings, but needn't have any other menu changes.
13:26:54[Saint]AFAIK, move T&D was a definite, though.
13:27:01[Saint]s/move/moving/
13:27:12kugelplus, the swap of resume playback and playlist catalog is a separate discussion and shouldn't be sneaked in this system menu talk
13:28:15LloreanI think the sleep timer patch should go in without being held up for any settings changes. But the list reordering patch that jdgordon posted should wait, if he's really serious about trying for a whole list overhaul.
13:29:07[Saint]Llorean: it was expressed in the ML that no one should need to go to two different places in the menu to use the sleep timer.
13:29:22[Saint]this meant moving Time & Date to Settings.
13:29:36[Saint]that's the only "needed" change, though.
13:29:46TorneWhy?
13:29:53TorneCan't the setting for the sleep timer just be under time and date for now?
13:29:57TorneThat's also only one place
13:30:00Tornewithout any menu changes
13:30:14[Saint]sideral had some beef about that.
13:30:29[Saint]"settings don't belong in System" or somesuch
13:30:30LloreanYeah, either of those changes are fine. Neither of those are what the patch jdgordon sent the email saying "I'm committing this soon" does.
13:31:59n1s[Saint]: tbh i didn't notice you had changed the order of stuff in the main menu when i said i liked your varaint and i don't think that is necessary
13:32:02*n1s off
13:32:59[Saint]n1s: I only moved "Playlist Catalogue", and tbh...I don't care *too* much about that.
13:33:10[Saint]the changes in there I do care about are in the new System menu.
13:33:43 Join mystica555_ [0] (~Mike@71-211-200-248.hlrn.qwest.net)
13:33:49[Saint]JdGordon and I would agree completely if it weren't for my want of the "About" menu.
13:34:30[Saint]that, and the fact that I don't want to rush this in, and I'm trying to pull as many people into this discussion as possible as the main menu affects us all.
13:34:44[Saint]Its quite likely someone will have an idea for the layout I like betetr.
13:34:47[Saint]I welcome that.
13:35:05 Quit mystica555 (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
13:35:47[Saint]I just thought that grouping ways to view files and commence playback made sense, I opened the doc to be edited by all specifically so people could pass their own views.
13:36:11[Saint]I'm definitely not saying "this is how I want it don't and I won't be satisfied unless its my way"...not at all.
13:36:21[Saint]if its come across like that I apologise.
13:37:07[Saint]*s/want it don't/want it done/
13:40:49sideralTorne: I think the least intrusive way to add the sleep-timer enhancements would be to leave the sleep timer where it is today, in System, and put its setting (there's only one left) in Settings->System settings. But no one really liked that separation, and the overwhelming majority wanted Time&Date in Settings. So that's the current proposal.
13:41:18sideralplus, rename System to About.
13:41:40Torneright, but that's not really getting agreement at this point and in the meantime you are not adding a feature that is done and dusted :)
13:41:50 Join markun [0] (~markun@rockbox/developer/markun)
13:41:56Tornei don't see the problem with just putting its setting next to the thing that activates it
13:43:05Torneif time and date later moves, then it'll still be together :)
13:43:31kugelTorne: but we already agreed on moving it to settings
13:43:47[Saint]I thought it was decided that Time&Date *was* being moved to Settings (or System, as Settings may(?) become)...and no one opposed this?
13:43:52Torneif it's agreed, then someone bloody move it already
13:43:56[Saint]the patch does this now, does it not?
13:43:57Tornewe don't need to do everything all at once
13:44:06[Saint]I would not object to it being commited like that.
13:44:18Tornemove time and date to settings, add new sleep timer feature there
13:44:24Torneone thing done
13:44:30[Saint]the current patch does this, I believe.
13:44:44Tornewell then someone commit that :)
13:44:44[Saint]sideral: can you confirm that? ^
13:44:55Torneunless somone does object to that
13:45:00Torneand objects in the sense that they don't want it done
13:45:04Tornenot in the sense that it doesn't go far enough
13:46:01sideralThe patch will do exactly that. But the "current" patch doesn't do that yea
13:46:16sideralOops
13:46:40LloreanYeah, I think the most compromise-ey way to do it right now is to move all of T&D to somewhere in the Settings hierarchy, don't rename anything, don't touch anything else.
13:47:01sideralThe patch will do exactly that. But the "current" patch doesn't do that yet because I asked the original author (nick-p) to hold back implementing any other variants until it's time to do the "final" version :)
13:47:21[Saint]well, sideral....I'm pretty sure that if its done as described above, moving Time&Date to settings *and that's all*...then you can commit.
13:47:42[Saint]I doubt anyone will block/revert this based on discussions here.
13:47:55[Saint]its *other* menu discussions needlessly getting in the way.
13:47:55sideralyes, that's my impression as well.
13:48:00TorneRight
13:48:18TorneWhatever form the final menu ends up in, i think everyone is perfectly happy with time and date being under settings/system/whateveritgetscalled
13:48:30*[Saint] nods.
13:48:39[Saint]its the rest of the menu we can't agree on ;)
13:48:54[Saint]but thats no reason to delay the sleep timer any longer.
13:49:03[Saint]I never wanted to block/delay this.
13:50:37[Saint]...I think I've said explicitly a few times that I'd be perfectly happy for the menu work to go in after the timer, and that it needn't block it. But I wouldn't blame anyone for getting confused about that. I only learnt a few hours ago that someone *was* actually blocking it until the menu was "finished".
13:51:03 Join nick-p [0] (~nick@82-69-105-120.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)
13:51:53sideralHi nick-p, can you briefly consume the last 108 hours or so of IRC log? ;)
13:52:35sideralnick-p: It looks like it is a GO for the last sleep-timer proposal I posted to the mailing list.
13:53:04[Saint]nick-p: No need to go through the logs, really ;)
13:53:10nick-psideral: Hi, I've been diping in and out, lot's of conflicting opinions on how the menu should look. Good news about the Go
13:53:12[Saint]its mostly unrelated bullshit :P
13:53:46sideralnick-p: So I think it's a good time to massage that patch one last time. One request though:
13:53:49[Saint]well, *I* think its important "bullshit"...but there's no need for it to hold up your patch.
13:54:00[Saint]its the rest of the menu I've been arguing about.
13:54:21gevaertsSome of us think that linking *all* possible improvements together and only doing anything if we have an agreement for everything is unlikely to get us anywhere
13:54:23sideralnick-p: Could you make it two patches, one moving the Time&Date menu, and one adding the features?
13:54:42sideralnick-p: Although if that's hard for you to do, I can do it at commit time
13:55:27nick-psideral: OK, I'll have ago. C isn't my native language, so will get in contact if I run into problems.
13:55:55sideralCool, thanks nick-p
13:55:58*[Saint] *never* wants to meet someone whose native language is C ;)
13:56:18[Saint]conversations would take a *long* time...
13:56:44nick-pI imagine it's just transplanting code from one file to another though. If it's OK I'll make a start tomorrow morning (GMT), I've just finished a boozy lunch ;)
13:57:26sideralnick-p: That's fine. I won't have much time for hacking before then anyway
13:59:27nick-pI imagine the manual changes needed after the propsoed menu upheaval will be horrific
14:00
14:00:57[Saint]nick-p: You're quite correct.
14:01:42[Saint]Not very many of us speak LaTeX either I think.
14:01:53[Saint]or, speak LaTeX well.
14:02:25nick-pThat's always the downer after making changes in the patch, battling with the LaTex...
14:03:20[Saint]My (very few) manual edits I have passed off to a text file and said "Here...sorry, someone else deal with this please"
14:03:30[Saint](which is better than nothing, so is accepted)
14:05:43 Join JdGordon [0] (~jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
14:05:50*[Saint] gets back to his RaaA theme.
14:06:23JdGordonthe status quo has always been anyone can block anything... and by the way, i havnt been unreasonable. I said i dont care how the main menu is resutrcted, just that it needs to happen before sleep timer
14:06:47JdGordonLlorean: If *I'm* serious about the resutrcting? I'm the only one thats actually done anything so far
14:07:39JdGordonthe main emnu and settings resturcting are two completly different thingy
14:07:42JdGordonthings*
14:08:45[Saint]the one thing I'm unclear on is *why* it needs to happen before the sleep timer goes in.
14:09:16JdGordonbecause it is really bad to move settings around shortly after being added
14:09:25JdGordonand there is a damn good chance it just wont happen after
14:10:05[Saint]you now the patch makes the move of the settings, yeah?
14:10:19JdGordonenglish?
14:10:25[Saint]Time&Date is being moved to Settings, which will *later* become "System"
14:10:44JdGordonwhich has as good a chance as not of never happening either
14:11:01JdGordonwhich is why I'm pushing for a proper rethink of that one freeking menu for now
14:11:19[Saint]Its been univerally(?) decided that Time&Date will be moved to Settings...
14:11:22JdGordonI've already said a dozen times I tihnk your version is bad but its better than nothing if noeone else likes my idea
14:11:24[Saint]so, that *will* happen.
14:11:35[Saint]Tomorrow, by the sound of things.
14:11:38JdGordonthat means squat
14:12:07JdGordonespecially when the two loudest people here disagree, and one doesnt have access
14:12:23JdGordont&d being in settings *is* wrong
14:12:28[Saint]If its a change we were both planning anyway (moving Time&Date)...why is it an issue?
14:12:38[Saint]It makes the menu re-do slightly easier, IMO.
14:12:43[Saint]one less thing to move.
14:12:46JdGordonit doesnt affect it at all
14:12:56[Saint]then why the opposition?
14:13:13JdGordonbecause untill then, t&d should *not* be half assed into settings
14:13:16LloreanJdGordon: Just because *you* say it's wrong doesn't actually make it wrong.
14:13:28LloreanThousands of devices have "Time & Date" in a settings menu
14:13:38JdGordonthousands of devices can be wrong together
14:13:48JdGordonyou have no more reason to be right than me
14:13:52LloreanAh, yes. You're right and the rest of the world is wrong on this issue?
14:14:02LloreanI'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying that the issue isn't absolute
14:14:02JdGordonyour words
14:14:13LloreanWhich means that both sides can be wrong. And if both are, we can move it to "Settings" just fine.
14:14:18[Saint]Its even "wrong" to have it in System, based on the definition of System things being "non system persistent"
14:14:26JdGordonif i wanted to follow the crowd I woudlnt be using a rockboxable device would i?
14:14:40LloreanJdGordon: Ah yes, by that logic we should make sure *nothing* is where people are used to finding it?
14:14:42JdGordon[Saint]: I dont know where that definition came from?
14:15:02 Quit ruler5 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:15:04[Saint]gevaerts and sideral seemed to know all about it..
14:15:07LloreanJdGordon: There is *nothing* wrong with having T&D in settings other than "you don't like it." It's an entirely subjective objection of a single person.
14:15:08[Saint]I got it from them.
14:15:31Llorean[Saint]: I think that too is more subjective opinion than any standing policy, though.
14:15:43[Saint]Ah, right.
14:15:54JdGordonsideral whos been in the group for 5 minutes and gevaerts who avoids ui at all costs? (I dont mean to offend them), I dont see why they are any more tight than me
14:16:26LloreanJdGordon: So, basically, there's something like five people objecting to the change, but you choose to say "their opinions all don't matter, for reasons I've made up, so there are no objections"
14:16:33JdGordonsystem is only wrong now because it is a broken catch all for items which are questionable anyway
14:16:55God_Eaterin *your* opinion ;)
14:17:04nick-pHow about I just write the second part of the patch (existing sleep timer being sticky and "on boot" after "alarm wake up") to the current T&D location, clearing the way for the continued discussions on where to move it and everything else?
14:17:09LloreanJdGordon: You're the *only* person currently arguing against moving it for the time being.
14:17:25JdGordonbecause im apparently the only one sane enough to see that is the end of the discussion
14:17:31Lloreannick-p: It's just one person objecting to moving it to "Settings." Go ahead and include a patch to move it.
14:17:33sideralJdGordon: I never said you're wrong, or I'd be "more right". I just think that you shouldn't block an unrelated change that's you'll likely subsume in a later change anyway
14:17:35[Saint]I fail to see how us wanting to change the main meu affects the sleep timer going in. Its going in in a way that we all wanted to change it to anyway.
14:17:46[Saint]*menu
14:17:58[Saint]namely moving T&D to settings
14:18:17[Saint]which can *later* become System (or *whatever!*)
14:18:18LloreanJdGordon: Calling everyone else insane isn't a good way to hold a reasonable discussion.
14:18:38JdGordonnick-p: if all its settings are in the t&d screen then yes, thats how it should be
14:19:20[Saint](coupled with T&D being moved to Settings...)
14:19:22JdGordonmoving t&d out of system is *not* part of the sleep timer patch and shouldnt move with it
14:20:18JdGordonwhy the fuck cant we have a level amount of discussion in this project instead of either none or a shit fight?
14:20:20LloreanJdGordon: Which is why it's being split into two patches by sideral, both of which the majority of us have agreed to.
14:20:30nick-pJdGordan: To be honest, I'd rather just handle that bit, I might be a bit green to be moving menus around at this stage...
14:20:49JdGordonnick-p: "that bit"?
14:20:51*[Saint] loses count of the amount of time he *thought* all were in agreement.
14:21:04[Saint]AFAIK, we still *are* in agreement about ~99% of this.
14:21:11sideralJdGordon, nick-p: I don't want to make this a power play, nor am I interested in getting involved in the menu-change flamefest. I'd be willing to simple keep everything in System->Time&Date for now, as an earlier version of the patch did
14:21:14JdGordonif the sleep patch puts its items in t&d then im all for it and will commit this second
14:21:24JdGordonif it moves t&d then we have a problem
14:21:29nick-pJdGordan: that bit == (existing sleep timer being sticky and "on boot" after "alarm wake up") to the current T&D location
14:21:29LloreanJdGordon: Why?
14:21:49LloreanJdGordon: You've never once actually justified why time and date, considered settings almost globally in software, aren't actually the settings most of us are okay with them being. Given that you set them...
14:21:54*[Saint] fails to see the problem also.
14:21:55JdGordonfor the same reason you chucked a shit with me proposing the catalog move
14:22:34LloreanJdGordon: Nobody's trying to sneak this in with an unrelated commit. Nothing changed inside the catalogue to warrant it being moved. The functionality of the T&D menu definitely changed, to contain more settings.
14:22:48LloreanIt's not the same situation, no matter how you try to frame it.
14:23:02LloreanEven if it *were* you didn't answer my question about why T&D aren't settings. You're trying to change the subject.
14:23:12sideralJdGordon, nick-p: The only thing that'd compromise is that it creates another "setting" under the System menu, but I still have to find anyone besides JdGordon and sideral who finds that odd :)
14:23:49[Saint]Settings go in Settings, dammit! :P
14:23:50JdGordonno, that is worse
14:24:27nick-psideral: Cool, maybe I'll have a play now
14:24:34JdGordondont do that
14:24:43LloreanJdGordon: If T&D are settings, moving them to settings is a bug fix. So concentrate on establishing that they don't belong there, rather than why you hate everyone who's not as sane as you because they want to move them.
14:24:48JdGordonleave the settings in t&d.. seperating them is much much worse
14:25:34Lloreansideral: I'm pretty sure everyone who's spoken here except JdGordon has agreed with the idea of moving the settings for Time and Date out of the system menu.
14:25:52JdGordonfuck the status quo
14:26:01LloreanTHere are other changes past that which then split the group. But that's different and not necessary at this time anyway
14:26:19LloreanJdGordon: For someone who's so upset that we can't have a reasonable discussion, I find it odd you aren't actually trying to contribute to one at all.
14:26:55[Saint]Llorean: I too, share that view...that I believed we were all (or mostly, for varying definitions of "all") in agreement re: moving T&D.
14:27:17[Saint]I didn't think it was an issue.
14:27:32[Saint]I can't count the number of times I thought it was "settled".
14:27:38[Saint]today, recently, that changed.
14:27:56Llorean[Saint]: It's only an issue for JdGordon at the moment. Everyone else has either agreed with it, or stated that they don't object to it because it meets their other needs (making sure T&D contains all the values) and they don't have a strong opinion on where T&D ends up.
14:28:23[Saint]that's as I thought it was...glad I'm not insane.
14:28:41[Saint]I keep thinking I've been missreading, or just plain getting it wrong.
14:29:03JdGordonI'm not against moving t&d, im against moving it into the existing settings menu.... repurpose the system menu into something meaningful and by all means go for it
14:29:12[Saint]I've been going over and over the logs to see where I messed up, but I can't find it.
14:29:15JdGordondont do a half ased job which will keep this argument alive forver
14:29:36LloreanJdGordon: I like how you're still not giving any *reasons* other than "because I say so"
14:29:36JdGordon[Saint]: we actually came to an agreement about merging system and setting which derailed becasue we disagree on about
14:29:40[Saint]why can't the Settings menu be repurposed *after* this commit?
14:29:51JdGordonbecause it wont be
14:29:56[Saint]Why?
14:30:00LloreanAnd I don't think it *needs* to be.
14:30:01JdGordonnothing ever fucking happens to the ui here
14:30:01sideralJdGordon: I'm afraid I can't do that (merge Settings and System). There are many more people disagreeing with that than with my current plan
14:30:50LloreanJdGordon: Concentrate on the current point, not the future. Explain why T&D doesn't belong in settings, because some of us are okay with moving it to settings being the only change, and don't care about trying to remove / repurpose system afterward.
14:30:51[Saint]forgive me for not having the ability to see into the future...but I think it *will* happen if enough of us want it to.
14:30:55[Saint]And, apparently we do.
14:31:05LloreanThere's two arguments. Hold the current one now, and the later one later.
14:31:13[Saint]We just can't agree on "About"...fuck, it is causes that much shit I'll happily drop it.
14:31:28JdGordon[Saint]: the peoplle wanting it is.... you, me and Llorean. you dont have commit right (happy to have that change), me who disagrees with your aproad, and Llorean ...
14:31:33 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
14:31:35JdGordonso no, it will never happen
14:31:41[Saint]I fail to see why the menu can't be repurposed (Settings/System) *after* this timer commit, though.
14:31:55JdGordonit CAN!
14:32:08[Saint]then, there's no problem.
14:32:08JdGordonas long as it doesnt move t&d which is irrelevant to that commit
14:32:25LloreanJdGordon: How does moving T&D prevent it, then?
14:32:30[Saint]argh!..."If we're moving it *anyway*!"
14:32:39JdGordonwe probably arnet
14:32:52LloreanYou're the only one against moving T&D. So, we probably are.
14:32:52[Saint]we're not?
14:33:04JdGordongoing round in fucking cirlces here
14:33:25[Saint]I'll say again that I will quite happily change my view on the "About" menu is it stops this shitfest.
14:33:35JdGordonmoving t&d has no bearing on the sleep patch.... it is completly unrelated and is bad coding to do it in the one change
14:33:37[Saint]*if it
14:33:53LloreanJdGordon: But that doesn't change that it will be one patch, then the other.
14:33:55[Saint]*two changes.
14:34:04[Saint](they'll be seperate patches)
14:34:08LloreanSo it may be treated as a single thing, since they will be happening sequentially in the current plan..
14:34:10*JdGordon was going to say he shold just code up [Saint]'s proposal and commit it to shut everyone up
14:34:39*Llorean doesn't believe system needs to be removed.
14:34:39[Saint]if it were minus the playlist catalogue change, sure.
14:34:45[Saint]that had contention.
14:35:15[Saint]Llorean: wait....what?
14:35:17JdGordontake t&d out of system and you really wonder why it has so high priority
14:35:26Llorean[Saint]: I've been saying that all along.
14:35:32JdGordononce again, rockbox info is the only item there with any actual use
14:35:42Llorean[Saint]: That's why I think the T&D setting should be moved now. That's one issue. What to do with system is a separate issue.
14:35:43[Saint]its not being *removed*, Llorean
14:36:27[Saint]Settings will become System, and those menus kludged together...with or without the "About" menu.
14:36:33sideralOK, as the move of T&D to Settings seems to be contentious, but adding the sleep timer options to T&D is not, I think I'll go ahead and commit the sleep timer changes to T&D (without any separation of sleep-timer related options).
14:36:36[Saint]everything will stil be there.
14:36:43[Saint]just slightly different placing.
14:36:47Llorean[Saint]: It's being merged into Settings, which will then either be renamed or not. I meant removal from the menu, not overall. SOrry, not quite clear.
14:37:00 Quit Bagder (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
14:37:06JdGordonsideral: yes, thats fine, thank you
14:37:16Lloreansideral: One person is not "contentious." As I've told JdGordon a dozen times, if I"m the only one objecting, he should be able to ignore me. We can ignore him.
14:37:32JdGordonwaiting for the main emnu does mean more vested interested in getting this argument sorted out though
14:37:34*God_Eater is on Llorean's side here
14:37:39Lloreansideral: He's never even stated a reason why it shouldn't be in settings other than that he doesn't believe T&D are actually settings.
14:37:59*[Saint] doesn't want to fuck *anyone* off...but agrees with Llorean
14:38:23God_EaterSaying T&D is not a setting is just flat out wrong.
14:38:23[Saint]one person has never been able to block a commit that people agreed upon in abundence before now
14:38:26LloreanThere's a second change, the possible merging of System and Settings, that is probably going to be quite contentious, and require time.
14:38:30sideralLlorean, God_Eater: why should *I* ignore JdGordon? Someone else can ignore him and move the menu if he dares so. I'm not particularly interested in menu positions
14:39:06God_Eatersideral: I'm not telling you to ignore him - Llorean is ;)
14:39:07JdGordon[Saint]: the other reason you proposal has its downside is that "Abbout" is a new string for translators and voice (whch is already hard to get into hwcodec)
14:39:16[Saint]sideral: You said not an hour ago that you'd commit the changes with the setting/T&D move.
14:39:23[Saint]stop flipping on it, get a spine.
14:39:34Lloreansideral: Because the patch should be completed, then committed? Adding settings outside of the "settings" menu is also a bug.
14:39:34God_Eaterooooh, burn.
14:40:09sideralSaint: That's when I thought that JdGordon did't disagree with the move. I thought it only was not getting far enough for his tastes, but would be on his party line. Apparently, it is not
14:40:11 Join T44 [0] (~Topy44@f048197133.adsl.alicedsl.de)
14:40:42*[Saint] fails to see why one person disagreeing changes anything.
14:40:45Lloreansideral: I mean no direct offense here, but in the past you've been willing to steamroll things I felt were quite a bit more contentious. Why the change of tone with this patch?
14:40:46[Saint]it never has before.
14:41:33nick-pWhy not just commit it as it is? Settings are in the settings hierarchy, manual selection (using the setting as default) in the system menu.
14:41:35sideralLlorean: Good sideline question :) I'm not in this for making trouble, but to get stuff done I'm interested in. I'm interested in the sleep-timer feature
14:41:53Lloreannick-p: Because everyone objects to that verison. :)
14:42:36Lloreansideral: I think the least trouble path really would be to make the move to settings, and get it done with. Kinda like peeling off a bandage quickly. It stings a bit, and it's over. That's where everyone but one agrees it should go anyway.
14:43:06JdGordonIf that happens I'm immediatly commiting my main menu reordering as a bug fix
14:43:11*[Saint] apologises to sideral for his quick temper. The flipping between I will commit X and I won't commit X coupled with the rest of the tome of the discussion has me in a mood I can only describe as "not the best".
14:43:13sideralnick-p: I also don't understand why anyone would object to that; it seems to be the least intrusive change (that's why I proposed it originally). But people seem to hate it when T&D related options move out of T&D
14:43:15[Saint]I was out of order there.
14:43:24[Saint]I meant what I said, but the wording was out of line.
14:43:26[Saint]Sorry.
14:43:40bertrikSo, what should we do first, 1) the move of t&d to settings or 2) adding the persistent sleep timer?
14:43:50 Quit Topy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
14:43:52JdGordon2
14:43:55Tornei think you can just add the sleep timer
14:43:59Tornewith the setting under time and date
14:44:06Tornei really do not think it matters that it's not under settings
14:44:16TorneSettings, in most UIs, is a catchall for all the config stuff that's left over
14:44:22Tornelots of "settings" are actually next to the function they control
14:44:28Tornenot tucked away in a settings menu
14:44:55LloreanJdGordon: It's not a bug. Threatening to counter-commit so that you get your personal way is NOT being a good member of the community, especially when you know your commit is a lot more contentious than the one you're objecting to.
14:45:33LloreanJdGordon: If you don't like it, revert it or go to RSB. But don't hold other code hostage.
14:45:37JdGordon:)
14:45:46 Join WalkGood [0] (~WalkGood@unaffiliated/walkgood)
14:47:37JdGordonthe problem has always been that t&d is in the wrong place, we have 3 proposals, one of which i dont think anyone actually likes but is the least effort (just move it), 2 other proposals which has some argument but generally agrees....... does anyone think that is wrong?
14:47:48 Quit mystica555_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
14:48:07Llorean"just move it to settings" is the one I like the most, at the moment.
14:48:16LloreanI don't think any other changes need to happen right now.
14:50:52JdGordonyou *want* to have this argument again at some unknown time?
14:51:08JdGordondoes anyone think *just* moving t&d is a good final outcome?
14:52:33n1si doubt it but i see it as "a step in the right direction"
14:53:00JdGordonhttp://pastebin.com/0Tp3PcEk <- everyone vote, 1,2,3 or add your own version... ill get whatever wins done now
14:54:12sideralJdGordon, I've come to understand, partly with your help, that things don't work like that
14:54:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:54:34JdGordonno, because people prefer to argue
14:54:42JdGordon1,2,3 people... its that simple
14:55:57God_Eatererm
14:56:21God_Eateractually JdGordon you're the one who likes to argue - you've even said so explicitly on many occasions
14:56:33sideralThis project uses a thing called politics, which is what we do instead of putting the finger on the trigger
14:56:58LloreanJdGordon: None of those are "just move it"
14:57:08JdGordonno because that is half assed and stupid
14:57:08sideralJdGordon: I hate politics as much as you do, BTW, but I know of no better way to get things done
14:57:23JdGordonsideral: its not politics... its personal
14:57:31JdGordonanyone saying otherwise is lieing
14:57:48God_Eaterpolitics *are* personal
14:57:50LloreanJdGordon: Moving it into settings and not touching anything else is all that I feel needs to be done.
14:58:16JdGordonok, so you vote 4
14:58:26LloreanRearranging the root menu or other menus aren't necessary to this, and they're something we're working on separately anyway.
14:58:55JdGordonseperatly is code word for "eeww... change..."
14:59:08*[Saint] votes for "1", sans the playlist catalogue change that no one liked but me and Jd
14:59:30God_EaterWTF has *that* got to do with the goddamn sleep timer?
14:59:39JdGordonNOTHING
15:00
15:00:02LloreanGod_Eater: JdGordon was trying to reorganize the main menu to how he liked while making the change. He even went so far as to claim patches did one thing, but sneak the change into them too in one of his emails.
15:00:03bertrikSo, can we just get that in soon?
15:00:14JdGordonand as long as sleep timer adds its settings to t&d it stays that way
15:00:54God_Eateryes I saw
15:01:01JdGordonLlorean: you fucking asshole moron... if you read the fucking email (as i know you did) you'd have fucking seen that was right there from the fucking start
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15:01:20LloreanJdGordon: It was in the first mail. You didn't mention it at all in the second mail, with your summaries of the patches in it explicitly leaving it out.
15:01:56LloreanJdGordon: Also, weren't we trying for "reasonable discussion"?
15:02:13God_Eateryeah - please keep the vitriol to a minimum
15:02:18[Saint]eeeek! disagree, yes. name calling, no.
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15:03:11LloreanJdGordon: "1) move_settings_into_system.diff - does what it says, makes the settings menu a submenu of system" should include "and moves the playlist catalogue entry in the main menu", etc.
15:03:19[Saint]I thought my "spine" comment was going to be the peak. I honestly regret starting this menu discussion. Please, all involved...don't underestimate how badly I regret starting this ;)
15:03:41[Saint]I want the work done, but this just isn't worth all the agro.
15:05:41God_EaterI don't even know why we're talking about submitting patches which do broad reorganisation of the menus when we've only just launched a discussion about the best way to do that.
15:05:50*[Saint] feels he should add that he wants the work done, and is happy to help where he can...I'm not relying on others to do this for me. If no one wants to do the work and I want it that badly, I'll learn.
15:08:34n1s[Saint]: this is usually the case when reorganizing the menus comes up and at this point, after a day or so of heated and repetetive "discussion", people usually give up
15:09:25LloreanGod_Eater: That's what I said, first thing.
15:09:49[Saint]n1s: that's the last thing I want...but, apparently this just can't happen without causing grief. Such is life when a bunch of strong minded individuals come together with differing views.
15:10:09LloreanGod_Eater: Sleep timer should go in, with its settings merged (preferably under the settings menu) and nothing else should be rearranged until we do the rest of the work.
15:10:25[Saint]My intention never was, and never will be, to cause any rifts.
15:10:36God_EaterLlorean: yep - my view precisely
15:10:39[Saint]I honestly did think we'd be able to come to an agreement about this.
15:10:46[Saint]and, we will...eventually.
15:10:50JdGordonwhat "broad reogranisation"? its the sinlge most important part of rockbox and the fact that only really 3 or 4 people have any opiion at all is pretty pathtic
15:11:13God_Eaterpretty sure more than 3 or 4 people are involved now
15:11:43God_Eateryour problem is you're impatient - not everyone has all the time you have to devote to rockbox - it takes time for these discussions to filter out to the rest of the community
15:11:45God_Eatergive it a chance
15:13:38God_EaterI already count 10 people that have weighed in to the discussion at various points, and given our *active* commiters is probably around the 40 person mark around now - that's a quarter of the project already.
15:14:06 Part WalkGood
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15:20:55n1smy stronges oppinion of this all is that i want there to be enough time for people to properly discuss and comment on this so they are done in a way that is least likely to make people feel like changes were done when they were looking away. I do have some oppinions about the actuall menus but they are not that strong :)
15:21:16n1ss/they/any menu changes/
15:22:53*JdGordon bets there will be no voices we havnt heard from already after we wait or it goes to the ml
15:22:57JdGordonother than users
15:23:41[Saint]pixelma said she will comment when she's available.
15:23:42n1spixelma at least said she wanted to comment but couldn't atm
15:23:46[Saint]...in 5 days time.
15:24:51n1sJdGordon: still if it's given some time people can't say that things were rushed in behind their backs
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15:26:47*Llorean still likes the compromise proposal over the all-or-nothing stance.
15:29:32LloreanMerging T&D and putting it either in the current settings or the current system, without merging those two, get T&D done without having to hash out the big question of "what's the difference between the system menu and the settings menu" which seems to be the main actually contentious point.
15:29:56LloreanWith the main contention against T&D being "if we go ahead and commit the T&D stuff, without hashing that out, it'll never get hashed out.
15:30:01LloreanHave I misrepresented anything yet?
15:35:03JdGordon[Saint]: you know what.... move "rockbox info" to the top of the system menu and possibly stick t&d as the next item, and I'd accept the about menu
15:35:39JdGordon"rockbox info" should be viewed as more relevant/important than the settings
15:37:12JdGordonthat said, I dont know if the cost in terms of lang strings is worth doing it that way (+1 deprecated (maybe), +1 new) over the settings submenu way (0 cost)
15:38:00JdGordonof course, with that argument it is very hypocritical to still have debug and running time in the build so meh
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15:39:34LloreanRunning time used to be useful, prior to battery bench. I think it's just one of those things that never got removed.
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15:48:53[Saint]JdGordon: See the google doc layout #2
15:49:23[Saint]I just edited it, I included your suggestion, and dropped the Playlist Catalogue down to where it was (for now)
15:50:22[Saint]though I, personally, want it where it is in my initial proposal.
15:50:29[Saint]others don't, though.
15:51:24bertrikLlorean, I won't mind having the Running Time entry removed
15:51:57LloreanI certainly wouldn't.
15:52:20God_EaterI've never used it - don't mind it going either.
15:52:24[Saint]well...looks like the "about" menu just died, then.
15:52:35[Saint]no point in having it for ~2 entries.
15:53:17[Saint]Time & Date goes to settings, Settings and System are merged...ultimately being named System, done.
15:53:21[Saint]Can we agree on this?
15:53:37*[Saint] crosses his fingers.
15:55:18[Saint]this is now my "proposal 3" in the Google Doc.
15:55:31[Saint]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HP7_TmvNdTlyHUdhmMzDRhK8MMcdOZuL6oDT−−1UMLs/edit?hl=en_US
15:56:34LloreanI'd leave "Settings" as "Settings" and put Rockbox Info where "System" is in the main menu.
15:57:15*[Saint] isn't sure that Rockbox Info deserves a main menu entry...to be honest.
15:57:25[Saint]its not *that* important.
15:57:39LloreanIt's very important for blind users.
15:57:42LloreanThats' where the battery status is read.
15:57:54[Saint]and they can get to it as the first entry in System
15:59:24LloreanThis is true. I personally actually see "Credits" as something that should be accessed through Rockbox Info, though, rather than its own item. And am not sure at all where I currently thing Debug should go.
15:59:26[Saint]JdGordon: If you coded up proposal 3, I'd back it.
15:59:36LloreanWHich is why I feel this sort of change should wait for things to be hashed out a bit.
15:59:47LloreanWhen we recategorize the main settings menu, we may find categories that work better for some of these things.
16:00
16:00:01[Saint]...this is true.
16:01:09LloreanBut the things from the system menu (and its submenus) probably should go on the list of settings we're considering.
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16:03:07LloreanAnd while I don't see the use of the "Running time" option, I'd like to get a little more opinion on it from the "old timers" as it were. I'm not sure why it was implemented in the first case, so I could be missing something entirely.
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16:24:15kugelpgevaerts: I'm on vacations now, I probably can't do anything buflib related for the next days
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16:28:43gevaertskugel: ok
16:28:49gevaertsHave fun!
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17:27:56[Saint]Is it possible to compile the SDL app for Windows, and...is someone able to do that for me? Pretty please?
17:28:03[Saint](480x800 if possible)
17:28:21*[Saint] 's build machine is still down for the count.
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18:25:23bluebrother[Saint]: you called?
18:25:50[Saint]I'm not sure its relevent now.
18:25:58[Saint]Someone was having an RBUtil issue.
18:26:18[Saint]Clip+ install rejecting the bootloader.
18:26:25bluebrotheralso, what's the problem with using cabbiev2-24.bmp for the icon strip?
18:27:00[Saint]bluebrother: none.
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18:27:17bluebrother:)
18:27:34bluebrotherlooks like that guy was passing Rockbox Utility the Rockbox bootloader instead of the original firmware file.
18:27:43bluebrotherwhich is simply wrong :)
18:28:56bluebrotherRockbox Utility asks for a firmware file. Should be clear enough I guess.
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19:01:25LloreanOn a subject before, the "If you don't make the change how I want it, I'm going to make it anyway" threat - should we take that as serious? Should we have a policy on holding code hostage like that?
19:01:56LloreanI'm okay with someone threatening "if you make the change, I'm going to revert it until there's a vote / proper discussion." Reverting something you feel strongly about is one thing. Threatening to make changes in response to changes you don't like is something different entirely.
19:06:11*[Saint] isn't sure exactly how serious the "threat" was...
19:06:20[Saint]but, it was concerning that it was said.
19:07:32LloreanWell, it wasn't said like a threat so much as a "this is what I'm going to do." I'm not sure how seriously to treat it.
19:07:42LloreanI don't think people should be saying "I'll commit this" in this channel if it's not serious.
19:08:49LloreanI'm not saying we should take action of some sort against him for it necessarily, but it might be worth establishing a list of certain things that are just flat out unacceptable
19:09:07LloreanWe're never going to get away from heated discussions, but we could have a list of threats that are just flat out unacceptable in the future.
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20:49:14bertrikbluebroth3r, perhaps this person just forgot to attach his/her translation file in FS #12244 ?
20:49:15fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12244 398% finish (bugs, closed)
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21:18:23CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30345): Fix off-by-one memory corruption in resistor plugin. ...
21:21:58CIA-14r30345 build result: 0 errors, 92 warnings (thomasjfox committed)
21:24:12*bertrik worries a bit about comments like "This cleans out the mysterious garbage that appears" in our code
21:24:17CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30346): Remove now unneeded variable
21:25:48thomasjfoxbertrik: I've a vague feeling that was caused by the buffer overrun. But I can't reproduce it so I left the kludge in there
21:26:15bertrikthomasjfox, don't worry, that wasn't directed at you :)
21:27:25CIA-14r30346 build result: All green
21:27:32CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30347): Clean up redundant assignment
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21:30:09CIA-14r30347 build result: All green
21:33:52n1sa bit surprising that gcc didn't catch that
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21:34:17CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30348): Fix use of uninitialized memory in xlcd_scroll_left() / xlcd_scroll_right() in special cases ...
21:34:38thomasjfoxn1s: r30348 is even more surprising to me ;)
21:34:42bertrikn1s, oh, you expect gcc to be that smart?
21:35:46n1sbertrik: it's an unconditional out of bounds access, should be quite easy to spot and i think i've seen such warnings from gcc before
21:36:01bluebroth3rbertrik: possible, but everything else in that task wasn't useful either. It even didn't have a real name, so accepting a (probably forgotten) translation wouldn't be an option at that point. If the reporter wants to work on a translation (s)he can always open a new task
21:36:33bertrikok, my preference would be to post a reminder in the task and wait a few days before closing
21:36:39CIA-14r30348 build result: All green
21:37:40bertrikI'm still not completely sure what the task was about to be honest, whether it was to remind us that ukranian is incomplete, or to actually supply new translations
21:38:57n1sthomasjfox: i don't think we have any LCD_PIXELFORMAT == HORIZONTAL_PACKING && LCD_DEPTH != 2 targets
21:39:01bluebroth3rwell, reminding us is useless, so it wouldn't be a valid task anyway
21:39:04CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30349): Fix file descriptor leak on error ...
21:39:12bluebroth3rbut I guess someone wants to work on it −− there's a post in the forums
21:39:13n1sso i'd guess gcc would have seen it if we did
21:39:39n1suninitialized warnings are usually pretty good
21:39:50bertrikbluebroth3r, yeah I wondered if that is the same person, but the (nick)names don't match
21:40:19bluebroth3rwell, we'll see. I don't consider that too much of an issue ;-)
21:40:49*thomasjfox gets out heavy gloves to touch apps/tagcache.c
21:41:55CIA-14r30349 build result: All green
21:42:03CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30350): Fix file descriptor leak on error ...
21:42:08bertrikdid you find some suspected bugs with an automated tool?
21:42:40bertriksorry, silly question
21:42:54thomasjfoxbertrik: Yes, it's called cppcheck. I submitted four kernel patches just today (use of uninitialized memory or out-of-bounds access)
21:44:39CIA-14r30350 build result: All green
21:45:00thomasjfoxbertrik: The idea of cppcheck is that it's not allowed to give false positives
21:45:33thomasjfoxbertrik: It still does sometimes but the noise-to-bug ratio is greater than with the other linters I have at $dayjob
21:48:48thomasjfoxah crap, the "exclude_mask" in libfaad is 2 bytes and we write 7 times to it... anyone familiar with libfaad?
21:49:31thomasjfoxThe data looks like this: uint8_t exclude_mask[MAX_CHANNELS];
21:49:49thomasjfox#define MAX_CHANNELS 2 /* Was 64, but we need to limit RAM usage */
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21:50:33thomasjfoxfor (i = 0; i < 7; i++) drc->exclude_mask[i] = something();
21:51:10thomasjfoxSo I guess that hardcoded buffer value could be changed to a "sizeof(exclude_mask)"
21:51:37bertrikor MAX_CHANNELS
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21:52:29bertriknice find
21:52:43thomasjfoxbertrik: The code below does even some more strange logic
21:52:52thomasjfoxfor (i = num_excl_chan; i < num_excl_chan+7; i++)
21:52:57thomasjfoxwith num_excl_chan = 7
21:53:19thomasjfoxSo MAX_CHANNELS should either be 14 or that thing needs a fix, too
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21:58:48CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30351): Fix off-by-one memory corruption in ipodpatcher. ...
22:00
22:01:42CIA-14r30351 build result: All green
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22:04:28bertrikI could have a look already at the pin/gpio mapping of the sansa clip zip I guess
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22:07:06thomasjfoxanyone familiar with libmad/layer3.c?
22:07:39thomasjfoxline 1580 looks fishy or I don't understand at all how it works
22:09:33bertriklooks quite tricky indeed, but I think it's not actually accessing outside xr
22:09:46bertrikxr has been moved in line 1574 already
22:11:00thomasjfoxStill there is no xr[-8] available I guess
22:11:14thomasjfoxThe loop is counting from 0 to 8
22:12:09thomasjfox"a = xr[-1 - i];"
22:12:44bertrikxr was incremented by 18 first, so xr[-8] should still point inside the original xr argument
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22:13:31thomasjfoxbertrik: Now it makes sense to me. Thanks. Nasty one :o)
22:14:14AlexPwhat ho
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22:14:19AlexPGodEater: Where are we meeting tomorrow?
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22:14:27AlexPsorry, wrong channel
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22:38:28CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30352): Don't close file descriptor twice
22:40:30CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30353): Fix free on wrong variable ...
22:41:02CIA-14r30352 build result: All green
22:43:20CIA-14r30353 build result: All green
22:43:49 Join nick-p [0] (~nick@82-69-105-120.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk)
22:44:46nick-pI was going to make a start on making the changes to FS #10849 - in existing T&D menu (or system if no RTC), make existing sleep timer become persistent, add "on boot" after "alarm wake up". I'd rather leave any moving of menus to someone more brave once this is in. Still OK?
22:46:44 Quit Jerom1 (Quit: Leaving.)
22:47:48CIA-14New commit by 03thomasjfox (r30354): Also fix uninitialized variables in xlcd_scroll_up()/xlcd_scroll_down()
22:48:50thomasjfoxnick-p: Do I understand it correctly there will be no "Settings" part then?
22:49:43nick-pthomasjfox: No, general opinion seemed to be that it should all be in one place
22:50:05CIA-14r30354 build result: All green
22:50:11nick-pthomasjfox: and once it was in talk about where to move it would continue
22:50:20thomasjfoxnick-p: Ok, I can certainly live with that
22:50:45thomasjfoxnick-p: Thanks for persisting with this :)
22:51:07nick-pthomasjfox: Thanks for your input & support
22:52:26thomasjfoxnick-p: I wouldn't have guess that such a small feature would turn into the discussion of renaming a whole submenu :o)
22:52:51CIA-14New commit by 03bertrik (r30355): Add the codec_main declaration to apps/codecs.h
22:54:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:55:43CIA-14r30355 build result: All green
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23:00
23:06:24bertrikhm, it appears amsinfo creates files containing trailing spaces
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23:41:53jhMikeSoops, codec_start in codecs.h was supposed to be codec_main
23:42:42jhMikeSshi...nvm, already forgot what I did there
23:44:06jhMikeSthere was a codec_main prototype inside in codec_crt0.c
23:45:37jhMikeS...which should probably not be as such

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