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#rockbox log for 2011-08-31

00:00:12mystica555_so what features not present in 1.6 are you making use of now?
00:00:32[Saint]The compatibility code needed to run ancient Android versions no one cares about (in the greater scheme of things) make developing for the more recent Android versions a huge pain in the ass.
00:01:03[Saint]SOlution, don't care about 1.6
00:01:17*gevaerts will let those people who actually do the work explain, since they're more likely to actually get things right
00:01:27 Quit preglow (Changing host)
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00:01:35mystica555_so if i am to understand your disdain for android, would it be considered correct that 'android is not as backwards compatible as windows has been' ?
00:01:48mystica555_ie, code for lowest common denominator no longer works?
00:02:02B4gderlowest common denominator was bumped apparently
00:02:16gevaertsCode for the lowest common denominator will work. It just won't work as well as code that assumes a more recent version
00:02:38mystica555_and again i ask what code is assuming a newer version to work nicer? gui widgets? powersave? audio out?
00:02:58*B4gder has no idea, but lets the guys who do the code do the code
00:03:29mystica555_im just trying to figure out what changed so horribly much to make my nice old android phone stop taking builds of rockbox. heh
00:03:39[Saint]Progress ;)
00:03:44B4gderwhy would it be "horribly much" ?
00:03:46mystica555_details!
00:03:49B4gderI bet it only takes a few tiny bytes
00:04:00mystica555_B4gder: some api change is horrible enough
00:05:56markunmystica555_: doesn't say why it was changed: http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi?view=rev;revision=30293
00:05:58[Saint]rasher's daily builds *just* so happen to be on r30292 now, this is the lastest build you can use until (highyl unlikely) someone that wants it, ans is able to, decides that compatibility for these older devices is worth putting time and effort in that the current maintainer is not.
00:06:00markunyou could ask kugel
00:06:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:08:26kugelthe 1.6 support was broken before 30293 IIRC
00:08:39kugelI just happened to notice it then and made it explicit
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00:09:15kugelmystica555_: the C code runs fine on 1.6. but the java parts need some compatibility stuff
00:09:47kugelif you provide a patch to reenable 1.6 support it might go in
00:09:49mystica555_ok.. so what exactly is the last build that works fine on 1.6?
00:10:01mystica555_or 'as fine as it ever did'
00:10:05mystica555_assuming always bugs
00:10:25kugelhowever I'm not willing to support code for 1% of the android users which nobody of us developers can test
00:10:36gevaertsmystica555_: "I just happened to notice it" implies that we don't know exactly when it got broken
00:10:44TorneIt's likely nobody knows, since if someone developed and tested on a 1.6 device then it would probably still work :)
00:10:51mystica555_heh
00:11:11kugelrealize that 1.6 is dead and upgrade :)
00:11:28mystica555_i realize that no version past 1.6 has worked on the g1 without a lot of headaches
00:11:28mystica555_heh
00:11:33[Saint]Given you're the first one who actually cares its broken, I assume the assumption that our 1.6 userbase is very, very small is correct ;)
00:11:48[Saint]it's like 1~2% of the entire Android market.
00:11:52kugelmystica555_: I heard CM6 worked fine on it
00:12:02mystica555_fine does not imply enough memory to run things properly
00:12:12Torne1.5 on 1.3%, 1.6 on 2.0%
00:12:25Torneso yeah, requiring 2.1 supports 96.4% of android devices
00:12:30[Saint]Hmmm, 1.5....lol
00:12:42[Saint]what's that, like...microwaves and fridges? ;)
00:12:56mystica555_and certain older archos tablets that nobody officially upgraded yet
00:13:05mystica555_still got a friend in chicago who won't hack his tablet and still runs archaic stuff on it
00:13:34kugelso please provide a patch if you can actually verify 1.6 support
00:13:38kugelwe can't
00:13:57mystica555_for fridges, i'd figure you'd need at leat 2.2 to keep the yogurt cool enough...
00:14:13mystica555_*least
00:14:19mystica555_(</badjoke>)
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00:23:08preglowkugel: awesome work!
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00:47:36DEBUGEOF from server (Connection reset by peer) (snapshot: netstuff.c line 545)
00:47:36***Cleanup
00:47:36***Cleanup
00:47:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:47:36***Exit
00:47:38***Started Dancer V4.16
00:47:38***Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667
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01:06:59kugelJdGordon: I was wondering why you can't add lines to simplelist if it has a get_name callback
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01:36:30JdGordKugel: addlines is used when the list is all static items
01:36:47JdGordCallback is when any/all are dynamic
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01:36:53kugelI found that too
01:36:53JdGordU can't mix them
01:37:10kugelmy list is all dynamic, but why can't I add a line dynamically?
01:38:04JdGordYou mean increase the line count?
01:38:12kugelryes
01:38:27JdGordThat's not what addline does
01:38:47kugelI didn't talk about addline
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01:38:52JdGordI'm not at my comp, does the simplelist struct have the actual list struct?
01:39:14*JdGord got confused
01:39:43JdGordDo it manually through the gui_list struct
01:39:46kugelsimplelist only lets one change the line count if get_name isn't given
01:39:57kugelI worked around by using the classic list api for that
01:40:20JdGordYyou can extend the simplelist api
01:40:28kugelit has an api for this
01:40:40kugelthe code explicitely checks get_name == NULL
01:40:55JdGordThat might be a bug
01:41:08JdGordIll be in the office in 20min, ill look then
01:41:10kugelit does so in a few places. it seems intentional to me
01:41:34kugelsee what I did in debug_menu.c with the buflib related debug items
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01:56:57JdGordonkugel: which simplelist funcyin you asking about?
01:57:51kugelsimplelist_set_line_count()
01:59:31JdGordonWhy do you want to change the line count thouhg? simplelist_show_list() doesnt return while in the list
01:59:46JdGordonis that because you dont want to reinit it ever?
02:00
02:00:06kugelthe items to be displayed change in the action callback
02:05:13JdGordonwhat the heck are you doing? :) you can probably remove that get_name == NULL check
02:05:13kugelsee debug_menu.c
02:05:13JdGordonok, you've added test code to debug_menu?
02:05:13kugelI added a buflib debug item
02:05:13JdGordon1) im not sure how you expect that to work.. you are unallocing the handle after setting the list count?
02:05:13kugelthe number of allocations (which are listed) changes in the callback (pressing STD_OK makes an allocation)
02:05:13DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon
02:05:13JdGordonthat really should have been in a seperate plugin
02:05:13JdGordontest_buflib.rock
02:05:20JdGordonbut anyway, you free the handle in the same callback
02:05:26JdGordonso the count shouldnt change?
02:05:44kugelthe count changes because it leavs an unallocated block
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02:06:00PacificHello there
02:06:25JdGordonoh, well, using gui_synclist_set_nb_items() is fine
02:06:38JdGordonI tihnk all that should be removed to a plugin and a proper test suite built
02:07:31kugelthe simplelist code is also calling this, but blocked by the get_name == NULL check. I don't know why though
02:08:48PacificI downloaded a version of Rockbox 3.9 with the USB-PIO patch for my Clip+ but I want to change the version number from r30325M to just 3.9 for aesthetics, could this be done easily or would it require messing with the source code and compiling it myself?
02:09:02JdGordonkugel: it is making sure the count is always correct when using the static array
02:09:26JdGordonPacific: you need to compile it yourself
02:09:37JdGordonand we ask that you *dont* do that, or at least dont give it to anyone else
02:09:45JdGordon3.9 does actually have special meaning
02:10:27PacificAlright, thanks for the help! And I don't plan on giving it to anyone else
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02:12:17JdGordonkugel: also, what is the point of that debug menu?
02:12:35JdGordonare you expecting people to ever run it? or you to run it each build?
02:12:57kugelI use it a lot
02:13:29JdGordonhmm, I meant the allocating magic button
02:13:53kugelI use that a lot also
02:14:16JdGordonthat worries me a bit
02:14:58kugel:?
02:15:11JdGordondoing mostly-random alloc/frees through there isnt testing
02:15:38JdGordona proper test suite plugin would be infinitly more valuable
02:15:56kugeli have plans for a test plugin
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02:16:15JdGordonheck, even not freeing immediatly and allowing the free to happen later would be more valuable
02:16:25JdGordonI just dont see the point in that
02:16:31kugelyou don't need to
02:17:59JdGordonok, so enlighten me
02:19:23kugelwhy? you're going to complain anyway
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02:20:36jhMikeSkugel: yes, it's possible to restart playback without _restarting_ playback (which was built into the new "design")
02:21:17kugelJdGordon: no point in insulting me in the other channel
02:21:52kugeljhMikeS: how?
02:23:29jhMikeSpassing the right flags to audio_start_playback
02:24:19kugelbut playback is stopped prior to calling that, no?
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02:24:40*kugel is posssibly missing something
02:24:42jhMikeSnot when changing crossfade and such
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02:25:36jhMikeSit just resets the engine and resumes but doesn't leave play state
02:27:46kugeljhMikeS: not sure what you mean
02:28:21kugelI can call it with AUDIO_START_RESTART, but that doesn't help me when I need to stop playback in order to resize buffering space prior to that
02:28:23jhMikeSsee audio_set_cuesheet and audio_set_crossfade
02:29:26jhMikeSah, you need to get some action in between there
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02:31:14jhMikeSis this code specific to playback because of the way it uses leftover ram?
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02:33:22kugeljhMikeS: what do you mean?
02:35:01jhMikeSthe playback state changing
02:39:25 Part bylzz
02:41:22kugeljhMikeS: well, if I get you right, you suggest I just call audio_start_playback() with the right flags?
02:41:59kugelbut that leads to audio_reset_buffer() to be called which makes a new allocation. that doesn't work from within the the shrink callback
02:44:45jhMikeSI wasn't fully aware of the requirements in this particular case.
02:45:36kugelthe requirement is that the buffer is shrinked (so that no code exceeds the new bounds anymore) before returning
02:46:23kugeland that nothing messes with the buflib allocations
02:47:29jhMikeS(since I'm following up on your TODO) does the core_shrink caller need to be the same thread?
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02:48:11kugelno, the thread doesn't matter
02:48:28kugelwhat matters is that it's called before the callback returns
02:49:15kugelalso the callback isn't called on the audio thread but I wanted to play safe
02:52:39kugelshrinking from the end is rather unlikely, that's only when space is needed to expand the handle-to-pointer lut. actual allocations only happen to ask for space in the front
02:53:45jhMikeSan additional flag could allow that to be put inside audio_start_playback and you only do one operation on the audio thread. if playback isn't playing then audio isn't doing anything else anyway.
02:54:40kugelbut that still stops playback for a moment, doesn'T it?
02:56:27jhMikeSsure, but not actually alter the state
02:57:02kugelwhat's the exact gain of this?
02:57:52jhMikeSwell, it could cause wps to exit spontaneously
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07:41:28blindwandererWhile r30393-110830 for Sansa c200 seems to run, it won't play mp3's, instead it just advances to the next file. Reverting to older version.
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07:48:54blindwanderer*rolls eyes* thought I rebooted, nevermind.
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07:53:38wodzJdGordon: What are technical blockers for customizable menus?
07:53:51JdGordonwodz: none
07:54:14wodzIMO this is the ultimate solution when following menu reorganization thread
07:54:20JdGordonthat is entirely project policy
07:54:53wodzoh, I thought that simply no one care enough to implement
07:55:17JdGordonlike I said in the thread. I don't particularly like Al's patch, but wouldnt object to it
07:55:32JdGordonno, the usual reason given is it would be a support nightmare
07:56:20wodzwell, it is only matter of first ask to roll back to default layout before asking for help
07:57:09JdGordonindeed
07:57:17wodzwe only need to provide indicator if custom layout is used to sort this out quickly
07:58:10JdGordonI'm not sure that is even needed
07:58:28scorche|shwodz: also, this becomes a bit more complicated when one takes into account our blind users, but...
07:59:01JdGordonwhat *is* needed is enough people to put their hand up and say they wouldn't object to it outright so someone can work on it and not waste their time
07:59:03wodzscorche|sh: why?
07:59:21*wodz rises his hand
07:59:22JdGordonscorche|sh: blind users would have the same benefit from this, probably moreso
08:00
08:02:24scorche|shJdGordon: possibly - i am just bringing up the usual arguments
08:03:03JdGordonright, which is why if this is ever going to change we need people to stop being apathetic and say the usual arguments are invalid
08:03:53JdGordonthe patches implementation using a text file to load the main menu is a really simple solution to the support question also, rename that file and you have a supported configuration without nuking all your other settings
08:04:27wodzJdGordon: running time in System - This is how I found that something is fishy with pll/dividers settings on rk27xx - it simply run too slow. But I don't know if this is enough reason to leave it.
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08:05:24wodzJdGordon: text file was my idea - personally I don't see any reason to block such approach
08:05:35JdGordonI agree 100%
08:05:49wodzIt will only provide added value with minor hassle
08:05:55JdGordonbut then apparently I've got a change fetish or something
08:05:59 Join God_Eater [0] (93722cd1@rockbox/staff/GodEater)
08:06:59*[Saint] got tired of supporting customizable menus and getting shot down by "the usual pects"
08:07:07JdGordonwodz: as for running time, well I'm not going to bother removing it if system+settings get merged because there is no real need... if t&d *only* was being moved then I'd care more, but it does look like *most* people don't hate the proposals
08:07:10[Saint]*suspects too
08:07:18[Saint]ERR:LAG
08:08:50JdGordonback in a few min
08:09:51Slasherikugel: A good estimate for a needed tempbuf size is about: commit_entry_count*sizeof(struct tempbuf_searchidx) + (commit_entry_count + tch.datasize/TAGFILE_ENTRY_CHUNK_LENGTH)*sizeof(void **) + commit_entry_count*TAGFILE_ENTRY_AVG_LENGTH
08:09:54[Saint]Customizable menus, however, don't fix the fact that the default layout is still crap.
08:09:55wodzNot speaking that we will save a lot of work with menu reorganization
08:09:57 Quit powell14ski (Quit: powell14ski)
08:10:03[Saint]We still need to fix that, and put that thread to bed, IMO.
08:10:15[Saint]wodz: No, we won't.
08:10:19[Saint]It still needs to be done.
08:10:34[Saint]For those that won't use this feature, which will be many.
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08:10:58[Saint]The default layout is still important, moreso than custom layouts.
08:11:05[Saint]We still need a "sane" main menu.
08:14:17wodzwhile I generally agree, the pressure will drop significantly with customizable layout
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08:18:29JdGordonwodz: are you talking about complete menu customising? or jut the main/root menu?
08:19:04[Saint]wodz: I don't see how the pressure will drop.
08:19:23[Saint]It'll still be there, it'll just give people an opportunity to ignore it.
08:19:30[Saint]but the default layout is the priority.
08:19:41wodzif we (will) do root menu customization what stops us from full customization?
08:20:09JdGordonmy view is that the main menu should be completly customisable, with the option of adding a shortcuts submenu to favorite settings, but not full customisation because i think the code bloat wont be worth it
08:20:29[Saint]JdGordon: Agree completely.
08:20:42wodzfrom the discussion it is clear that even if we come to consensus it will not satisfy everyone
08:20:47[Saint]ordering *every* menu item will bloat the menu code out needlessly.
08:21:01[Saint]only the main menu need customization.
08:21:04JdGordonI also doubt people would use it
08:21:09[Saint]the rest of the menu needs "sane" ordering.
08:21:12JdGordonwodz: well thats never going to happen anyway :)
08:21:38wodzJdGordon: the bloat would be like number of entries* sizeof(function pointer)
08:22:05[Saint]exactly, needless ;)
08:22:30n1sall this menu customization is needless
08:23:33n1sand if we make one menu customizable people will ask that we make the otherones customizable as well
08:23:45JdGordonwodz: + parseing whatever file lays it out
08:23:47[Saint]I agree entirely with JdGordon that there's no need to offer sub-menu customization. Allowing a customizable main menu (and possibly quickscreen) is all that's needed IMO)
08:24:26[Saint]For the rest of the menu, the plan to go with sorting out the sub-menu categories/ordering still seems like it'd be best.
08:24:31n1si thought the qs already was customizable
08:24:41JdGordonpeople want more than 4 items
08:24:57[Saint]n1s: It is, buit if you want more than 4 items (people do) its somewhat lacking.
08:25:17[Saint]A simple, list style quickscreen has been wanted by some for ages.
08:25:24n1sthat's a completely different thing though
08:25:45[Saint]...in what way?
08:26:05amiconnThat wouldn't be a quickscreen anymore
08:26:07*n1s don't care at all about the qs but i think it seems very arbitrary to say "menu x needs to be customizable but not meny y"
08:26:28amiconnThe quickscreen is meant to be for real quick operation of often-used things
08:26:31n1s[Saint]: it *is* customizable, you want to replace it with a menu
08:27:12[Saint]Not just me...the countless people that want more than three items, and also want to include the (many) items the QS doesn't allow.
08:27:20[Saint]s/three/four/
08:27:41amiconnIt's in fact still not as quick as it used to be before the action code
08:27:47JdGordonamiconn: yeah, but the QS hasnt been as quick as it used to since actions went in (or was that finally fixed?)
08:27:54JdGordonsnap!
08:28:01n1sit's still something different from making it customizable and i don't see why it is relevant
08:28:08amiconnIt's still quicker than a menu though
08:28:10[Saint]and I also don't see how it would stop it from being a "quickscreen"..if you want more than 4 items, and others don't..it won't affect them.
08:28:32[Saint]I assume the option for a "standard" QS will be left in place.
08:28:38[Saint]I wouldn;t see why not.
08:28:57JdGordonthe way I'd do it is allow the current QS implementation *or* a menu so it doesnt affect anyone that doesnt want it
08:29:00n1sit seems like people start pulling in everything they want to change about the UI into every UI discussion
08:29:15JdGordonn1s: haha, sad but true
08:29:18amiconnAnd I can't see what a menu-style quickscreen would offer. You can just use the ordinary menu at the same speed then
08:29:28[Saint]Geee...talking about UI changes when changing the UI comes up.... 0_o
08:29:41*[Saint] is shocked! :)
08:29:53JdGordonamiconn: it would mean all *your* favorite items are in the one submenu instead of across a dozen
08:30:06JdGordonit does have an actual beenfit
08:30:19*[Saint] nods. I'd use it, for sure.
08:30:28LloreanSo what five items do you change so often that you need to cut 5 or 6 seconds off your use time for them?
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08:30:34amiconnHow many items *you use often* are actually scattered?
08:30:46JdGordonn1s: thats probably because we've had the same UI mistakes for 10 years and none are ever fixed
08:30:54*amiconn actually doesn't even use the quickscreen
08:30:56LloreanAnd which of them aren't associated with other items, so that they wouldn't be even faster by just using a .cfg?
08:31:10JdGordonamiconn: that's not the point though. I also neever use the QS, but some people want it
08:31:19amiconnyeah
08:31:23[Saint]A .cfg is fine, if you have a few, very specific fixed case scanious.
08:31:25amiconnI don't want to remove it
08:31:30n1sJdGordon: true, but i think it makes discussing isolated changes harder and thus less likely to go anywhere, which is sad
08:31:34JdGordonplease read what I said....
08:31:50JdGordonI explicitly said it wouldnt change if you wanted the current QS
08:31:56[Saint]*scanious?
08:32:06[Saint]Errr.... scenarios.
08:32:15*[Saint] curses his phone.
08:32:17LloreanWhy not address the actual use cases? Talk about which settings exist that need changing regularly independently of each other. Rather than just saying "some people want it" demonstrate the cases where it's useful rather than hypothesizing that they're out there.
08:32:53JdGordonLlorean: from your own mouth... "I don't really think your speculation on what the most likely way
08:32:56JdGordonusers use the settings is means much. The honest truth is, we don't
08:32:59JdGordonknow."
08:33:13JdGordonhow are we supposed to know what users want?
08:33:21JdGordonor fix the damn issue and empower them from the get go
08:33:22LloreanJdGordon: Yes, but you're claiming we should change it for reasons we don't and can't know. How does that work?
08:33:25wodzabout customizable menus - if we could load "menu functions" one by one we may decrease final binary size in some cases
08:34:00JdGordonLlorean: err, what?!
08:34:15LloreanJdGordon: I didn't ask for the most likely way.
08:34:24LloreanJdGordon: I asked for cases that this is meant to address.
08:34:25JdGordonand i didnt say anything about that
08:34:35LloreanJdGordon: You attempted to counter with a quote from me about "most likely ways"
08:34:47LloreanI'm not asking for likelihoods. Just cases in general.
08:35:26LloreanIt's a change with the intent to increase the number of accessible settings via the quickscreen. So let's talk about which of our settings are changed regularly independently of each other, and perhaps why they aren't more accessible in other ways.
08:35:44JdGordonand how the hell are we supposed to know that?
08:36:05LloreanWell, since you're trying to solve a problem, it seems reasonable that you've identified it.
08:36:13LloreanRather than focusing on a single solution, let's focus on the *problem* as there might not be a lone solution.
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08:36:29LloreanOr is this a case of "I want to make this change, so I'm making up reasons to justify it that I won't really go into the details of"?
08:37:06LloreanI don't think it's unreasonable at all to ask "what are we trying to solve with this?"
08:37:14wodzI guess this is more question to the users asking for more qs entries
08:37:18JdGordonyes, thats it.. i need to stroke my ego with added changes
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08:38:15JdGordonLlorean: as for solving issues... i note you havnt touched the settings menu ordering doc after saying you actually wanted to find a solution
08:38:51LloreanJdGordon: Stay on topic please, or are you trying to avoid answering the question?
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08:39:02LloreanI've already explicitly said my intent regarding that document.
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08:46:19wodzreading whole discussion I am a bit shocked how Jd is attacked considering the fact how polite he tries to push this changes
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08:49:12Lloreanwodz: I don't think anyone's attacked him here during this discussion.
08:50:09*JdGordon guesses the menu change ml thread(s)
08:50:19JdGordongood thing I have thick skin :)
08:51:57God_Eateryeah, that was a bit harsh
08:52:11[Saint]Its especially surprising since *I'm* the one that re-opened this can of worms....*sigh* ;)
08:52:21God_Eaterlucky it was just an end user and no-one we actually care about the opinion of ;)
08:52:22[Saint]He's just getting shit because he's prepared to implement it ;)
08:52:46God_Eater[Saint]: if it's your can of works - can *you* cite these use cases Llorean is afteR?
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08:52:56God_Eaters/works/worms/
08:53:08[Saint]Hmmm...seems I need to scroll.
08:53:13[Saint]What does he want?
08:53:20JdGordonwhich can of worms are we talking about now?
08:53:32JdGordonthere is about 15 change discussions happening in parallel :p
08:53:44Llorean[Saint]: To simplify - what problem are we trying to solve? What is the full list of settings that are likely to be changed often, independently of one another so that .cfg files aren't likely to be useful.
08:53:57God_EaterJdGordon: search me - [Saint] claimed ownership of said can.
08:54:00[Saint]If its about the quickscreen, I believe I have it in my logs Llorean himself saying that its generally accepted that users want more than 4 QS items.
08:54:06Llorean[Saint]: I like to start from the core of things. If settings need changed often, we should look at what those settings are, and possibly if there are other ways to address that need.
08:54:40[Saint]Ohhhh to find that log. That'll shut this up.
08:54:52LloreanI'd be surprised if I ever said that. But I will admit to having said I wouldn't mind replacing the quickscreen with the "load .cfg file" screen as an alternative.
08:55:15God_Eater[Saint]: grep is your friend
08:55:18[Saint]Dammit! You're lucky you said it in community ;)
08:55:22LloreanBut that's more on my personal use case than any perceived problem.
08:55:24n1srockbox utility only creates voice files from the curtent svn .langs, right?
08:55:30[Saint]I'll need gevaerts for this I think.
08:55:34n1sas in not for releases
08:55:34God_Eater[Saint]: when do you think he said it? I'll look through my logs.
08:55:59[Saint]I seem to recall it at elast since I've been back...~2 weeks, or so?
08:56:15God_Eaternot that I think it matters mind you
08:56:19n1swhy does it matter if Lloreansaid that?
08:56:22[Saint]I have a hunch it was in -community, but I may be wrong.
08:56:31LloreanI'm fairly certain I didn't say anything like that recently
08:56:44LloreanI don't believe I've commented on the quickscreen at all, outside this discussion, for months at the shortest.
08:57:15LloreanI'm not prepared to say I've never suggested some users might want more than 4 at any point, but even then, I'd like to know *why* more than simply the fact that they do.
08:57:22JdGordonthis argument really is stupid
08:57:43JdGordonWe have no idea of knowing how users use rockbox, so obviously we have no idea which settings are important tto them
08:57:58LloreanThen how do we know it's important to replace the quickscreen with a menu?
08:57:59JdGordonwe DO know that we have been asked for more settings on the QS before and customisability in the menus
08:58:03JdGordonso why not allow it?
08:58:15God_Eater[Saint]: nope - he never said any such thing
08:58:15Llorean"Have been asked" != "is important" though.
08:58:26LloreanWe have been asked for pretty much any idea under the sun.
08:58:54JdGordonLlorean: do you *ever* actually read? I've said twice today and about a million times evry time we have this discussion that I'm not in favour of *removing* the current QS for those that want to stay with that
08:58:55LloreanWhich is why it's valuable to look at why it's needed/wanted, to weigh against costs and look for alternative ways to meet that need.
08:59:17God_EaterJdGordon: aren't you discussing a change here?
08:59:22LloreanJdGordon: I didn't mean to suggest you want to remove it. I suppose "replace" was the wrong word there, sorry.
08:59:25*[Saint] wonders what it is he's thinking about...then. I'm sure I recall *someone* (damn sure it was Llorean, but, apparently not) saying that it was universally accepted that users want more than 4 QS items.
08:59:28*[Saint] retracts.
08:59:35JdGordon[Saint]: I remember it too
08:59:42Llorean[Saint]: I don't know who said it, but I'm *very* confident it wasn't me if it was recently.
09:00
09:00:05LloreanI know that some users want more than 4 QS items. I don't believe it's universally accepted that any significant number of users would want or benefit from this.
09:00:23JdGordon16:28 <JdGordon> the way I'd do it is allow the current QS implementation *or* a menu so it doesnt affect anyone that doesnt want it
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09:00:43amiconnWe can't just add all kinds of exotic functions just because someone asked for them. Every additional function comes at a cost
09:01:24God_EaterJdGordon: that could easily be read as you wanting to remove the QS
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09:01:29 Join Bagder [241] (~daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
09:01:30[Saint]If it can be allowed (as an alternative to the "normal" QS), at a nominal binsize hit (I sincerely doubt this change would affect binsize in any detrimental way)...I don't see why not to allow it.
09:01:44JdGordonGod_Eater: how?!
09:01:58God_Eaterthough from context I see you're saying now you would allow it as an option to choose between keeping current behaviour and a new method.
09:02:09JdGordon16:28 <JdGordon> the way I'd do it is (allow the current QS implementation *or* a menu so it doesnt affect anyone that doesnt want it)
09:02:21[Saint][18:28] <JdGordon> the way I'd do it is allow the current QS implementation *or* a menu so it doesnt affect anyone that doesnt want it
09:02:21JdGordonadded brackets to remove ambiguity
09:02:25LloreanCan we drop the issue of whether or not what JdGordon said could imply it would be removed? We all know now that he doesn't want it removed.
09:03:46God_Eater[Saint]: adding features and not removing others always increases binsize
09:04:11JdGordonwhich is why I've been saying running time and debug info should be removed
09:04:27[Saint]I didn't say it wouldn't. What I did say, is that I doubt it would be anything significant.
09:04:49LloreanJdGordon: But those are an entirely different conversation. "Remove X means it's okay to add Y" isn't how it should work.
09:04:51[Saint]"check for magic file, if its there...use that instad of QS, if not, don't"
09:05:15LloreanWhy is there so much resistance to trying to figure out if it's actually *needed* rather than just suggested by a person here or there?
09:05:34n1s[Saint]: please not magic file
09:05:43*JdGordon could implement a menu based quickscreen in *maybe* 200-400 lines including spaces :) it isnt a big feature
09:05:50LloreanIt sounds like nobody in this discussion thinks they personally would actually make use of it, based on nobody knowing what settings would need such access?
09:06:08[Saint]n1s: In my imagined implementation, the "magic file" would be the users custom ordering.
09:06:20God_EaterLlorean: well I barely ever use the quickscreen as is. I can't imagine wanting to replace it with a huge menu either.
09:06:25[Saint]not something simply to "turn it on"
09:07:02[Saint]Llorean: DId you miss me saying that I'd certainly use it?
09:07:09LloreanGod_Eater: As it stands, the quick screen can hold 4 different settings. So the hypothesis here is that there are use cases that include 5 different settings that are changed frequently enough to warrant quick access, but are changed independently so a .cfg is inappropriate.
09:07:21n1s[Saint]: i'd prefer to have at least a visible setting for enabling, like a file selection option in which people could choose the cusom menu they wanted
09:07:21[Saint]I *hate* digging through menus, even if I don't access them regularly.
09:07:39n1shidden stuff usually means few people use it
09:07:41[Saint]I'd love to know I had a list, ordered exactly as I please, of my frequent menu items.
09:07:51Llorean[Saint]: What are your frequent menu items?
09:07:52[Saint]who wouldn't?
09:08:05[Saint]a lot..apparently, but I don't see why.
09:08:15[Saint]Llorean: WHy does that matter?
09:08:18[Saint]*WHy
09:08:24[Saint]fuck it. :-S
09:08:30n1si only use the menus when i want to test something
09:08:40Llorean[Saint]: Well it sounds like you want it as an alternative because we're not getting custom menu ordering, from your description.
09:08:43God_Eater[Saint]: to answer Llorean's earlier question about the use case!
09:09:31[Saint]Llorean: That's partly the case, but even if custom menu ordering were allowed, I'd probably still use this as an alternative.
09:09:34*JdGordon 's config.cfg has 8 lines only
09:09:42[Saint]As I could have a minimal list of items of my chosing.
09:09:57Llorean[Saint]: So what would those items be?
09:09:58[Saint]And not have to dig down into any menu.
09:10:58JdGordoncan we *please* push this discussion aside and just agree on the main menu proposal change?
09:11:16JdGordoneven if that just means how we all want settings and system merged
09:11:47JdGordonreally it seems to be do we put settings as a submenu in system or not
09:12:15*Llorean prefers to put system in as a submenu of settings.
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09:16:55God_Eaterwhy can't re-ordering of the main menu wait until we've finished looking at the entire menu structure?
09:17:17JdGordon1) because I don't believe that will actually happen
09:17:25LloreanThey're basically independent anyway, with the possible exception of T&D moving over to somewhere else.
09:17:37JdGordon2) the scope of that doesnt necessarily involve the main menu
09:17:57*JdGordon throws something sharp at apple... apparently the ipod mini's OF does that backward ordering also
09:18:17[Saint]"backward ordering"?
09:18:23JdGordonsettings > system
09:18:36[Saint]Ah, right.
09:19:02JdGordonandroid and apprently the ipod of are the only things which follow that...
09:19:20[Saint]TBH, I really don't give a flying <foo> whether its Settings - System, or System - Settings...as long as its agreeable to all that the two be merged.
09:20:16JdGordonnoone has actually said they dont want them somehow merged right?
09:20:36[Saint]If the Android OF does this, *and* the iPod OF....and we run on both, maybe it *might* be sane to follow suit?
09:20:58[Saint]Since, we run on both. Best not to confuse needlessly, yeah?
09:21:14JdGordongnome does it system > preferences... OSX does it the correct way, booting windows to make sure also
09:21:43*[Saint] slaps his forehead ;)
09:21:44JdGordondo we want to align with dumbed-down interfaces now?
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09:21:53[Saint]Lets refrain from words like "correct" ;)
09:22:45JdGordonanyway, it seems very few people actually have an opinion here
09:22:47LloreanFrom my perspective: "Settings" is something everyone knows to look for. "System" is something people will enter hoping settings might be found there once they don't see it at the top level.
09:23:02evilnickLlorean: +1
09:23:29LloreanI don't think there's a large practical difference in the name, but I think naming it "Settings" is a little friendlier over all.
09:23:53JdGordonsince when do we do friendly over correct?
09:24:06JdGordonwe use database instead of "music" or "libary"
09:24:23JdGordonfull EQ instead of a dumbed down one
09:24:59JdGordonI highly doubt anyone would actually be confused if they saw the settings items inside system
09:25:17LloreanWe actually offer a dumbed down one as well. "Music" isn't correct from some perspectives, and neither is "library." You're pulling random things in here, but it's really entirely subjective what order they belong in.
09:25:27Lloreandumbed down EQ, that is.
09:25:52God_EaterI'm glad of the dumbed down one - I've no friggin' clue how to use the full one.
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09:26:52LloreanBut, typically, in places where it doesn't cost us to be user friendly, we should be.
09:27:25LloreanWhen we talked about naming it "library" or "music" there was talk of those *increasing* confusion in some cases.
09:28:10JdGordonyeah, well I disagree
09:28:55God_Eaterno way. really?
09:29:03n1si'm for merging but don't really care if settings or systme is the top level item
09:29:10LloreanWith which point? That those could be confusing, that we should be user friendly when possible, or that Settings is the more obvious "this is what's here" name for the top level?
09:29:31[Saint_AndChat]n1s: same here.
09:30:02JdGordonall three points really
09:30:21JdGordongiven then items there is no way users would get lost
09:30:46JdGordonwe have plenty of cases where we do correctness over friendliness
09:30:48LloreanI don't see what's to gain by intentionally not being user friendly when the opportunity arises. I can see how you might have a different opinion on the other two, thought.
09:30:56[Saint_AndChat]How can one argue against being user friendly where possible?
09:31:30JdGordonthis isnt user frieldnyyness anyway, this is "our users are stupid"
09:31:37God_Eater[Saint_AndChat]: JdGordon can argue black is white. Did you not know this yet?
09:32:00[Saint_AndChat]JdGordon: I disagree.
09:32:00JdGordonGod_Eater: well that is my point... if more people would open their mouths this would be done
09:32:22JdGordonright now its me and Llorean, and everyone else doesnt care, and i've done the patch and ready for commit
09:32:41JdGordonI'm only not because I dont want to appear like i'm not trying to get consensus
09:32:48[Saint_AndChat]There seems little reason to deliberately do the opposite of the host os.
09:33:02JdGordon[Saint_AndChat]: and on targets where the OF does the other way?
09:33:24[Saint_AndChat]Ate there any?
09:33:28[Saint_AndChat]Are
09:33:30God_EaterI don't like "System" as the top level entry
09:33:36God_EaterI prefer "Settings"
09:36:27JdGordonwill anyone put up their hand to help with the manual changes needed?
09:36:31JdGordonincluding screenshots :/
09:36:39*[Saint_AndChat] too but I could tolerate either.
09:37:31[Saint_AndChat]I nominate alexbobp! He's managed to avoid most of this discussion ;)
09:37:42n1si can help with the manual, screenshots are tedious though so i'd prefer not to have to do all of them by myself
09:38:06n1sand i think i'll do it after it's certain which way we went :)
09:38:10[Saint_AndChat]Don't we have a "make screenshots" script?
09:38:15n1swe do?
09:38:18[Saint_AndChat]I thought so...
09:38:30JdGordonrasher has a patch which is good enough for this, but it still involves building the lot of them
09:38:39[Saint_AndChat]Ah.
09:39:04rasherYou're not going to get around that
09:39:12JdGordonfrankly at this point I don't even care any more, I do feel pretty offended that people who are pushing one way dont want to contribute to getting their way done though
09:39:20rasherBuilding is just a matter of pressing "go" though
09:39:39rasherThe patch still needs work though, to be really useful
09:39:49JdGordonbut if it means that I'm stuck doing everything then I'm getting my way
09:40:14*JdGordon doesnt think that is unreasoable given the lack of conviction from 99% of the audience
09:40:47[Saint_AndChat]Well...in what way could I be of use? I see it as stalled as every time someone has a suggestion there's a twelve hour argument.
09:40:59[Saint_AndChat]I don't want to waste my time.
09:41:47[Saint_AndChat]If I contribute I don't want changed minds the next day. You dig?
09:42:12 Quit Scromple (Quit: Leaving)
09:42:56LloreanJdGordon: Isn't the difference between your way and the way people have suggested almost literally one word? Is it really that much more work to do it the other way, or is this just a case of "I'm looking for another excuse to do it my way now that people spoke up?"
09:43:29JdGordonso?
09:44:01JdGordonIf I'm doing *all* the work, and it is such a small difference, and so few people care... why shouldnt I get something back from it?
09:44:02[Saint_AndChat]The only thing I see left is system - settings vs settings -system
09:44:26JdGordonthe manual is the only thing holding this back
09:44:38JdGordonscreenshots+some tex reordering
09:44:47LloreanJdGordon: Why did you even ask for opinions if your intent was to ignore them, then?
09:45:06rasherI'm not sure I like the idea that because you're doing the work you get to overrule a majority wanting thinking there's a better solution. If that is the situation, which it sounds like.
09:45:13JdGordonim not ignoring *them*, I'm asking for more than 2 people to weigh in
09:45:21JdGordonwhat majority?
09:45:23LloreanThe excuse "well, if I'm doing the work, I can ignore the opinions of the rest" would apply to *everything* otherwise.
09:45:30JdGordonits still less than half a dozen people saying *anything*
09:45:47rasherJdGordon: Irrelevant. A majority of the people who care enough to speak up
09:46:33God_EaterJdGordon: so far you're the *only* person who has said they want "System" as the top level entry. Everyone else who has ventured an opinion has disagreed with you.
09:46:54JdGordonbut noone has disagreed with the need to merge the two
09:47:07[Saint_AndChat]That's not the issue
09:47:27[Saint_AndChat]And you're right Boone has
09:47:35[Saint_AndChat]No one
09:47:38God_Eaterlol autocorrect
09:48:31[Saint_AndChat]The issue, is what should be top level. System or settings
09:48:41JdGordoncorrect
09:48:55[Saint_AndChat]I wanted settings but I caved in to try to get an agreement.
09:49:04JdGordonand the people arguing one way dont actually want to contribute to it
09:49:14[Saint_AndChat]Errrrr....
09:49:21[Saint_AndChat]I do!
09:49:26rasherJdGordon: But that is not a useful argument. "I'm doing it so I should get my way" shouldn't be an argument. Otherwise, why have discussions at all?
09:49:58God_Eatererm - we *are* contributing. We're telling you what we think.
09:50:12JdGordonand if just a few more people said they absolutly dont want it that way I'd give in...
09:50:15rasher*Especially* in this case where the amount of work is the same.
09:50:33[Saint_AndChat]How many more do you need?
09:50:36rasherI could sort of see it if it was a matter of one way being significantly more work
09:50:41God_Eaterif you're defining "contribute" as "write their own patch to do it" then you're a fucking moron.
09:50:51[Saint_AndChat]Sorry but so far I just see one that wants system top level
09:51:22rasherCan someone explain the issue in a few short sentences and I'll give my unbiased opinion :) I don't know who wants what.
09:51:45alexbobp[Saint_AndChat]: lol, what am I nominated for?
09:52:00alexbobp[Saint_AndChat]: I avoided the discussion by being out trying to fight with some damnable printer nonsense
09:52:03[Saint_AndChat]I caved as I have NP write access, and agreeing made thongs easier. If I had my way settings would be top level.
09:52:07Lloreanrasher: Basically, it's an argument about a single word. In the top level Rockbox menu, System and Settings are being merged. The question is, would we prefer the new item to be named System or Settings?
09:52:13alexbobpblast these school assignments! I shouldn't have to use obselete stuff like paper!
09:52:22LloreanSome of us feel that "Settings" may be more familiar to users, and may (slightly) aid user friendliness.
09:52:23rasherLlorean: System, I say.
09:52:23[Saint_AndChat]Thongs
09:52:25[Saint_AndChat]...lol
09:52:27God_Eater[Saint_AndChat]: hahahahaha
09:52:28Lloreanothers feel that "System" is technically more correct.
09:52:34[Saint_AndChat]Thongs.
09:52:42[Saint_AndChat]Dammit!
09:52:57alexbobpso is it true that fuze v2 usbmode works just fine as long as all I care about is linux?
09:53:07alexbobpI would like to know how to enable it if there is an easy way
09:53:13alexbobpbecause I hate the OF with a fiery passion
09:53:13LloreanHow about we drop both "System" and "Settings" and name it "Configuration"
09:53:15JdGordonrasher: thank you :)
09:53:26rasherhaha
09:53:27JdGordonLlorean: how is that any different to settings?
09:53:45rasherHonestly, I don't see it being any sort of issue though
09:53:50rasherEither would be fine
09:53:51LloreanFive more letters, for a start.
09:55:12*[Saint_AndChat] chokes back a laugh.
09:55:17God_EaterWould it fit on charcell?
09:55:19[Saint_AndChat]Ahem.
09:55:27[Saint_AndChat]Probably not.
09:55:37JdGordoncharcell is 11 chars isnt it?
09:55:41[Saint_AndChat]Too long I think
09:55:59rasherThere are also other languages..
09:56:08JdGordonI was going to say "fuck off charcell" but system is shorter so would win if that was the deciding factor
09:56:27rasherWell it wouldn't be a deciding factor between System and Settings
09:56:41JdGordon2 chars less
09:56:47rasherSure but both fit on charcell
09:56:54[Saint_AndChat]...as long as it fits.
09:56:57LloreanReally though, the idea that it shouldn't be named "settings" is mostly based in pedantry around the idea that some of the things contained in it won't actually be settings any more. Specifically the Rockbox Info, Debug, and Running Time options.
09:57:02JdGordonso call it "ass monkey"
09:57:19JdGordonLlorean: oh good, we like pedantry here
09:57:58rasherI really fail to see why this is a point of contention though. Even though I feel System would be a better choice, it seems more people like Settings, so why not go with that? It doesn't matter that much...
09:58:14JdGordonbecause "more people" here is 2....
09:58:17[Saint_AndChat]Llorean: which is why I wanted the "about" menu.
09:58:23[Saint_AndChat]Fixed ;)
09:58:41rasherJdGordon: Not like you're going to get all developers weighing in on an issue like this...
09:58:44JdGordonand it matters because this is a bikeshed
09:58:53[Saint_AndChat]Put the npn-settings in About. Done.
09:59:15[Saint_AndChat]non-settings.
09:59:20JdGordonand about goes where?
09:59:21rasherIt's exactly bikeshedding. So go with the more popular option and move on because ultimately it doesn't matter
09:59:39[Saint_AndChat]JdGordon: under Settings
09:59:44JdGordonwhich is wrong! :D
09:59:49[Saint_AndChat]No!
09:59:52Lloreanrasher: Honestly, most of us have said it doesn't matter too much to us. I think more of us object to how JdGordon's acting about the whole issue than the issue itself.
09:59:52JdGordonYES!
09:59:54[Saint_AndChat];)
10:00
10:00:26[Saint_AndChat]Perfect timing...
10:02:22 Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
10:03:01[Saint_AndChat]Seriously though, an About menu would solve all this "non-settings items under settings" nonsense.
10:03:27 Join JdGord [0] (~AndChat@106.70.119.244)
10:03:29[Saint_AndChat]And a LOT of OSes do this Settings -About thing.
10:04:07Llorean[Saint_AndChat]: I wouldn't mind Settings->About, but it's not going to solve the problem simply because it leaves the same issue of technically there being non-settings within the settings hierarchy.
10:04:48[Saint_AndChat]It nodes them away, at least. The majority does seem to thing Settings is sane.
10:04:59[Saint_AndChat]It shortens the list, also.
10:05:15[Saint_AndChat]S/nodes/hides/
10:05:34JdGordPlease stop using the word majority
10:05:36JdGord6 people have weighed in
10:06:02[Saint_AndChat]And the majority of them agree settings is sane.
10:06:30[Saint_AndChat]So, majority is correct here.
10:06:47[Saint_AndChat]Those that don't comment, apparent have no opinion.
10:07:07LloreanOr just aren't here.
10:07:55[Saint_AndChat]Well that too...but them not commenting doesn't change that the main portion of those that have commented agree settings is better wording.
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10:08:15JdGord2:4 is hardly a mojority
10:08:28[Saint_AndChat]Were...yeah, it os :)
10:08:48[Saint_AndChat]Dammit!
10:09:13[Saint_AndChat]Were...yeah, it is. 2 vs 1 is a majority.
10:09:24God_Eaterit's the very definition of a majority.
10:09:31[Saint_AndChat]Indeed.
10:09:38LloreanIt's at *least* as technically a majority as "Rockbox Info" is technically not a setting. ;)
10:10:22 Quit JdGord (Quit: Bye)
10:10:33God_Eaterit's pretty clear that basically you want to continue this argument until you manage to get enough people to agree with you JdGord, at which point I expect you to suddenly commit your patch as is. That's acting like a dick.
10:20:41 Join JdGord [0] (~AndChat@106.70.119.244)
10:20:58JdGordIf I wanted to be a dick id have commited already
10:21:14JdGord6/40+ is not enough voices to do anything
10:21:38JdGordI've also asked for help which noone is willing to do
10:21:50JdGordTrain
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10:23:45*[Saint_AndChat] wonders how many times he's confirmed he'll help.
10:23:59[Saint_AndChat]Once I know I'm not wasting my time.
10:24:17[Saint_AndChat]Is this being willfully ignored?
10:25:07alexbobpwhat's the patch do?
10:25:10[Saint_AndChat]I've said it at least a dozen times I'd say.
10:25:53[Saint_AndChat]I just don't want to work on something only a handful of people want, that may change and waste my time.
10:26:17[Saint_AndChat]I want a CONFIRMED menu first.
10:26:26[Saint_AndChat]Then ill gladly help.
10:26:35*alexbobp is completely lost
10:26:53[Saint_AndChat]alexbobp: probably best ;)
10:27:22alexbobpaww
10:27:29alexbobpI wanna know what the patch does that people are arguing about!
10:27:43alexbobpshould I ask in -community?
10:27:43[Saint_AndChat]Menu ordering.
10:27:53alexbobpoh, okay, I don't really care then XD
10:28:03[Saint_AndChat]Settings - system vs system - settings
10:28:29[Saint_AndChat]The two will be merged, the question is what will be top level.
10:28:47alexbobpoh
10:28:54[Saint_AndChat]Majority says settings, jd says system. Stalemate.
10:29:51alexbobpI think settings -> system is more like what most original firmwares do
10:30:09alexbobpmainly because average end users are scared of seeing words like "system" in their main menu, I suspect
10:30:59[Saint_AndChat]That's a non-argument, apparently.
10:31:05alexbobpwell, if it were up to me, they wouldn't be merged :P
10:31:10alexbobpbut it's not a big deal to me, pay no heed!
10:31:19[Saint_AndChat]Then an os that does it the other way is brought up.
10:31:32alexbobpI can see his argument... system -> settings is more intuitive to me
10:31:36[Saint_AndChat]Ie. Stalemate.
10:31:41alexbobpbut settings -> system is probably less scary to novices, and it's faster for reaching most options
10:31:44alexbobpthat you actually want to reach
10:31:54*[Saint_AndChat] nods.
10:32:15[Saint_AndChat]IPod and android do it this way.
10:33:01alexbobpso, uh, on the topic of patches...
10:33:05Lloreanalexbobp: I think that either way, what you see when you enter the menu will be the same. It's really just an issue of naming, not actual organization.
10:33:56mystica555_i vote for Settings > System order.
10:34:39[Saint_AndChat]alexbobp: there's nothing on flyspray regarding this iiuc. There's a patch that does what I'd wants on the ml though.
10:34:42alexbobpaww, my fuze just hardlocked when I tried to use the fm radio :(
10:34:48mystica555_the menu options under 'system' all seem to be a setting of some sort... whereas all settings cannot ideally be grouped under 'system' category.
10:34:56alexbobpLlorean: so if it's system -> settings, you'd have a "settings" menu full of your clock and the credits and running time and stuff?
10:35:00alexbobpbecause that would make no kind of sense!
10:35:36alexbobpSo on the topic of patches I hear from http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMS it's possible to use usbmode in rockbox on a fuzev2, if you only care about linux support
10:35:49[Saint_AndChat]mystica555_: care to actually look again?
10:36:15[Saint_AndChat]There's only time and date under system that is a setting.
10:36:40[Saint_AndChat]The test are clearly not settings.
10:36:49gevaertsTime and date aren't settings!
10:36:52[Saint_AndChat]S/test/rest/
10:37:17alexbobpgevaerts: how not?
10:37:27[Saint_AndChat]gevaerts: you can set them can you not?
10:37:45gevaertsalexbobp: a setting is something that when you go back to it shows what you set it to
10:37:54LloreanI thought the idea was that the menu structure would be our current "settings menu" with the "System settings" merged with the current "System" menu and then the top level menu would either be named System or Settings?
10:38:00gevaertsIf your clock behaves that way, I recommend replacing it
10:38:12[Saint_AndChat]Like 12/24 hour? ;)
10:38:31[Saint_AndChat]That's shows as you set it.
10:38:43alexbobpgevaerts: I would argue that what you are "setting" is the offset of your device clock from real time, and you would like it to remain close to 0 after you set it to that
10:38:43mystica555_[Saint_AndChat]: i seem to have ctrl-f'd to the wrong 'system' section in the manual.
10:38:47gevaertsWell, ok, some bits in there are setting
10:38:56alexbobpgevaerts: are you saying that how a setting is displayed to you changes whether it is a setting?
10:39:06Lloreangevaerts: So if you set the offset between the RTC and the local time, and it displayed that offset rather than the actual time, would it then become a setting? I mean that's what you're setting, it's just a display issue...
10:39:07mystica555_i apparently got to 8.5 > system which is not the same as 'main menu > system'
10:39:33gevaertsLlorean: it would. I'd argue that you're not doing that though
10:39:40mystica555_i still find a few setting values within the main menu > system
10:39:49alexbobpLlorean: <3
10:39:55mystica555_why not move those setting values to 'settings' and keep the system menu as 'sysinfo' :P
10:40:04gevaertsNow I don't mind moving the thing to settings, but I do object to this general "time is a setting" idea that can *only* lead to a career in politics
10:40:07mystica555_to imply 'no settings at all here'
10:40:19Lloreangevaerts: So you don't "set" the clock?
10:40:38alexbobpcompromise: the menus should be called "Steve" and "Larry", and nobody can opine that they are incorrectly descriptive
10:40:38gevaertsLlorean: I tend to adjust it :)
10:40:44LloreanAh, so it's an adjusting.
10:40:46LloreanFair enough.
10:40:51*Llorean begins plans for a new menu.
10:40:51[Saint_AndChat]Lol.
10:40:57alexbobpthis is pedantry at it's finest
10:41:19Lloreanalexbobp: gevaerts and I probably shouldn't be allowed to speak to one another. He's also a weapons-grade punner.
10:41:22[Saint_AndChat]System, Settings, Adjustments ;D
10:41:30 Join JdGord [0] (~AndChat@106.70.119.244)
10:41:42mystica555_but once you adjust something, is it not set? :P
10:41:54gevaertsmystica555_: clearly not. It changes all by itself
10:41:54Lloreanmystica555_: It's hardly set if it keeps changing.
10:42:04*gevaerts clarifies again that he doesn't intend this to be an argument in the current discussions
10:42:08 Quit JdGord (Client Quit)
10:42:11mystica555_then how would you tend to adjust a constantly varying value?
10:42:24Lloreanmystica555_: You *could* set an offset to that value.
10:42:33mystica555_which then is now set, thus a setting :P
10:42:41LloreanBut the current discussion is, quite literally, about whether the top level is *named* one thing or another, not what it contains or any issue of ordering.
10:43:08mystica555_well if you're all restructuring the menus, shouldnt all of that come into play?
10:43:30LloreanThe issue is mostly that 'System' avoids the issue that 'Settings' is not wholly technically correct. While one could argue that 'Settings' is more likely what a user will expect to see and may look for in the first place.
10:44:07Lloreanmystica555_: The organizing of the content of the menu is a much larger project anyway. There's an effort to come up with an organized way to tackle it.
10:44:59mystica555_settings should stay ; any adjustable crap may go under it imho. as for where 'system' goes, sysinfo is what it should be named as it overloads the general settings > system menu...and should contain no settings of its own
10:45:37 Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
10:46:20[Saint_AndChat]mystica555_: there would be no need for that menu.
10:46:29kugelfwiw, can I vote "don't change anything"?
10:46:34[Saint_AndChat]There isn't really any need for it now.
10:46:45[Saint_AndChat]Its just a clone of System
10:47:07kugelI honestly don't see why we're in need for a drastical UI change (which just confuses existing users)
10:47:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:48:04[Saint_AndChat]Because the menu is TERRIBLE
10:48:25mystica555_[Saint_AndChat]: which menu is a clone of which now?
10:48:29[Saint_AndChat]People being used to it doesn't make it un-terrible.
10:48:41kugelbut it's an argument to not change it
10:49:07kugelI also doesn't find it that terrible
10:49:45kugelif I need to vote for a change, I'm probably still in the "move t&d to settings and rename system to about" camp, without merging
10:50:36[Saint_AndChat]mystica555_: nevermind. I confused myself thinking about another menu. Apologies.
10:50:40God_EaterI don't find it terrible either
10:51:08[Saint_AndChat]Because we're used to it.
10:51:13God_Eaterno
10:51:14LloreanI'd just take everything in the top level "system" menu, shove it into the current Settings->General Settings->System menu and call it a day if it were completely up to my preference.
10:51:14kugelJdGordon: there were several more people than 2 that voiced an opinion. I guess you ignored them because they don't have your opinion
10:51:15*gevaerts thinks he agrees with kugel
10:51:21LloreanWe have two places called system. Merge them, go to bed.
10:51:31[Saint_AndChat]It's very unintuitive for.new users.
10:51:53God_Eater[Saint_AndChat]: Rockbox is complex firmware. It's not always possible to make it intuitive.
10:51:55[Saint_AndChat]Were all just used to it.
10:51:57God_EaterThis is why we ship a manual.
10:52:11[Saint_AndChat]That no pneumonia reads ;)
10:52:18*kugel always wonders where people get the knowledge what's confusing for new users and what not from
10:52:19[Saint_AndChat]No one. Lol.
10:52:20God_EaterIf you want intuitive, stick to the OF
10:52:31gevaerts[Saint_AndChat]: there is no such thing as intuitive software
10:52:31kugelother than making assumptions based on oppinions
10:52:31LloreanA question. The way it's set up currently, would it be feasible for the same setting to appear in multiple places?
10:52:32God_Eaterkugel: indeed
10:52:44[Saint_AndChat]kugel: from watching new users. Personally.
10:52:46God_EaterLlorean: sure
10:52:48LloreanFor example, could "Volume" show up both in playback *and* sound settings?
10:52:59[Saint_AndChat]I've converted a lot of people.to Rockbox.
10:53:11God_Eater[Saint_AndChat]: for god's sake use a PC.
10:53:40LloreanJust thinking on the big settings reorganization, and thinking in some of the ways I might group them, it'd make sense for some settings to show up in more than one place.
10:54:02kugelyay, redundancy
10:54:06mystica555_[Saint_AndChat]: 'sokay. i just have always noted the names overload eachother so saying the 'system' menu leads to confusion...
10:55:24kugelfor me it seems the whole drastical UI change was just brought up because JdGordon was unhappy with that's going to happen to t&d. nobody really put up a complaint about the current structure
10:55:34alexbobpWould someone mind looking at a rockdev.sh error for me? http://pastebin.com/b3kx3Hdn
10:56:40Bagderthat binutils package isn't there anymore, is it?
10:57:05kugeland to me it seems that lots of the discussion is insulting, mainly by JdGordon
10:57:05alexbobpholy crap you're right
10:57:13alexbobpBagder: I just did "file" on it and it's an html document
10:57:19alexbobpI would have refused to unpack that too.
10:57:23Bagderyes, someone else mentioned that problem the other day
10:57:43alexbobphow can I make it sew?
10:57:57alexbobpI must have my rockbox usbmode!
10:58:08alexbobpI really want to never boot OF again, it's "refreshing your media" thingy is positively dreadful.
10:58:32Bagdertry editing the script to use binutils-2.20.1a.tar.bz2 instead
10:59:00rasherDid anyone figure out what was so terrible about the old version that it had to be eradicated?
10:59:19alexbobpBagder: thanks
11:00
11:00:24alexbobprasher: I'd guess a security bug or a correctness bug with compiling, if they'd do that
11:00:54rasherPretty crazy that it's just gone without a trace.
11:00:58alexbobpBagder: all the downloading seems fine now, thanks :D
11:01:26kugelrasher: if it's a security thing they probably keep it secret for a few days until major distros picked it up
11:01:47alexbobprasher: it's understandable i nsome cases. Better to make people do a double-take and fix their scripts, then let them accidentally install a compiler that will produce bad binaries and screw them later.
11:01:58kugelI don't suppose someone has the old package for a diff?
11:02:02rasherkugel: hm, good point
11:02:16alexbobpkugel: surely someone does, what with this script!
11:02:18alexbobpsomeone among the devs
11:07:27 Join Buschel [0] (~chatzilla@p54A3B69C.dip.t-dialin.net)
11:07:57JdGordongiven this is an entirely aestetic change (therefore subjective), and has no technical justification for either way, tell me if this is a distrotion of facts
11:08:00JdGordon1) the *vast* majority have no opinion at all
11:08:02JdGordon2) of those that have an opinion, aronud half dont have a strong opinion either way and just want the discussion to end
11:08:05JdGordon3) of those that do have a strong opinion, only one person has made any effort to actually implement it
11:09:02*[Saint_AndChat] waits for the bit that matters.
11:10:05n1salexbobp: old buggy versions are usually kept around on the ftps and new patched versions are added. This has to be something else than just some regular bug
11:10:05alexbobp1 and 2 are probably true. I don't know the details on 3.
11:10:09kugelJdGordon: you brought this thing up in the first place. why should anyone else have to offer an implementation?
11:10:39*[Saint_AndChat] coughs.
11:10:45[Saint_AndChat]I brought it up.
11:10:55[Saint_AndChat]He did something about it.
11:11:07rasherJdGordon: I disagree with including 1). It's factually correct, but a not important when judging what the opinion. We'll *always* only get a subset of developers participating.
11:11:15kugel[Saint_AndChat]: merging system and settings was your idea?
11:11:36[Saint_AndChat]kugel: oh...THAT.
11:11:59[Saint_AndChat]I thought you meant menu ordering as a qhole, sorry.
11:12:09[Saint_AndChat]*whole
11:14:14JdGordonrasher: even taking that out, if ppeople dont step up to do the work on such a trivial change then why should anyone listen to them at all?
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11:14:29JdGordonthat is hardly unreasonable
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11:15:07kugelJdGordon: we're not settled on what we want to have, it's unreasonable to expect an implementation at this point
11:15:09CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30394): Declare several libgme functions static.
11:15:27kugelthat you have a patch doesn't make the thing less controversial
11:15:31rasherI disagree. Especially when it's not a matter of workload (ie. if it was a matter of one option being much more work than the other, I'd be more inclined to agree)
11:17:22JdGordonright, and right now noone is doing anything either way
11:17:32JdGordonif one person said theyd do the work i'd give up
11:17:35JdGordoni'd even bloody commit it
11:17:42JdGordonI just want the argument fininshed
11:18:10JdGordonwhat I dont think is fair is having to do the work and not get my preference when it is an entirely subjective matter
11:18:24CIA-14r30394 build result: All green
11:18:26kugeldo what work exactly? we haven't reached a consensus
11:18:26LloreanJdGordon: So don't do the work at all then.
11:18:32JdGordonand im not commiting the work i've already done because i dont want to appear to be an ass
11:18:33LloreanJdGordon: Nobody's making you do anything.
11:18:47JdGordonindeed
11:18:51LloreanWhat exactly are you holding out for?
11:18:58alexbobpwow, rockbox builds fast
11:19:04gevaertsAs long as one of the valid options is "do nothing", and some people want that option, I don't think "I'm doing the work" can ever be considered even slightly valid
11:19:06JdGordonbut noone else has said they will do it
11:19:07alexbobplike 100 times faster than the toolchain I had to build to build rockbox XD
11:19:15kugelmaking the work in advance, then crying about it is also not fair
11:19:18LloreanJdGordon: You're basically saying you'll never do it the way people have voted, so what are you holding out on? You can now just go do something else.
11:19:30alexbobpI'm not really in favor of merging the menus, if that's what's up for debate
11:19:37alexbobpbut I also only barely care
11:19:56*JdGordon looks forward to this argument coming up again in a few weeks
11:20:09JdGordonweeks/months/whenever
11:20:42*alexbobp looks forward to this being the last goddamned time he ever boots original firmware
11:20:58LloreanJdGordon: You've created a situation where the only two options are "someone else write the whole thing" or "you get it your way." Why are you even still arguing?
11:21:30alexbobpLlorean: not really. Just edit his patch, it'll be easy!
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11:22:10alexbobpor a patch on his patch. but you get the idea.
11:22:27Lloreanalexbobp: It would take more effort for him to share it with me than it would be for him to change the word. Somehow I don't suspect he'll be sharing it if he's not willing to do the other work.
11:23:00alexbobpLlorean: oh, are you guys committing directly to svn?
11:23:04alexbobpno decentralized revision control? :P
11:23:05JdGordonmy patches are all on the mailing list
11:23:20LloreanJdGordon: Are there any that doing contain the reordering as well?
11:23:37JdGordonwould it matter?
11:23:44Zagoralexbobp: we're still on svn, yes. we are moving to git, but haven't executed that yet.
11:23:45JdGordonits not like you're actually going to *do* anything
11:24:27JdGordongo on.. prove me wrong
11:25:10kugeloh the buggered patches that also sneak in the resume playback & playlist catalog swap?
11:26:15JdGordonbecause its so hard to understand the patch to put it back
11:27:08alexbobpI need help with the usb mode patch
11:27:27alexbobpI applied this patch: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11664?show_task
11:27:32alexbobpto enable usb support on the fuzev2
11:27:49alexbobpis there anything special I need to do once it's plugged into a computer? it's not doing anything different than before, just charging
11:28:09 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/)
11:28:12LloreanJdGordon: Why does your "no other changes" patch have "-case GO_TO_MAINMENU: -return ONPLAY_MAINMENU;" as two changes to onplay.c?
11:28:13kugelI don't understand the binutils diff really, but it doesn't impact our targets
11:30:13JdGordonLlorean: i havnt uploaded any with that filename
11:30:27LloreanWhat filename?
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11:30:38JdGordonexactly
11:30:51LloreanI have no idea what you're saying now.
11:31:03JdGordonand i have no idea what diff you're talking about
11:31:09LloreanIt's simply called "changes.diff" and you described it as "All this does is move the contents of the settings menu into the system menu, and move the system menu to where settings currently is. It also changed the "rockbox info" icon. No other changes."
11:31:29kugelI can see that as well
11:31:37JdGordonwas that so hard to say the first time?
11:31:45JdGordoncontext does help
11:32:08LloreanI do believe it's the only patch you described as having "no other changes" after I complained about you inaccurately describing earlier patches. I thought that was context enough. I'm sorry.
11:32:20JdGordonbecause GO_TO_MAINMENU is 1) never used 2) meant for going into the settings menu which was rmeod in that patch
11:33:07JdGordonI also said that I just wanted help doing the manual changes, i'll do the code changes
11:34:58LloreanJust a minute ago you were refusing to do the code changes.
11:35:32JdGordonno i didnt
11:36:26LloreanSo I'm confused.
11:36:35LloreanWhen you asked for help, [Saint] said he was willing to.
11:36:48LloreanBut you've been holding out saying that since you've done the coding, it should be named what you want it named.
11:37:01JdGordoni never said that at all
11:37:13sideralalexbobp: You need to apply the first patch to sansafuze.h as well
11:37:15JdGordonand [Saint] hasnt agreed to anything untill there is consensus
11:37:22LloreanJdGordon: "(4:18:06 AM) JdGordon: what I dont think is fair is having to do the work and not get my preference when it is an entirely subjective matter"
11:37:31LloreanWhat did you mean by that, then?
11:37:54JdGordonthe screenshots, the manual changes
11:38:07JdGordonI'm realistic enough to know noone else is going to touch root_menu.c
11:38:11sideralalexbobp: there's a different patch in that tracker task that does that for you:
11:38:47sideralalexbobp: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11664?getfile=22652
11:39:30 Quit lorenzo92 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
11:39:32LloreanJdGordon: I'll tell you what. Go ahead and finish your patch 100%, including manual work, and post it to the mailing list. I'll happily convert it to what the consensus agreed on. Then you won't have to do a single iota more work than you would have if we agreed with you. Sound fair?
11:39:37sideralalexbobp: (ah, it's sansfuzev2.h, not sansafuze.h)
11:40:09JdGordonLlorean: I'm done, take the patch as it is
11:40:33JdGordonand as long as t&d stays in system *or* system+settings merge I'm happy
11:40:36 Quit n1s (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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11:41:10LloreanJdGordon: It's clear you're not, since you're objecting to merging system+settings if it's named "settings"
11:41:35JdGordonfucking hell, i said ages ago i stopped caring as long as it happened and someone else did the work
11:41:47kugelJdGordon: the sentence above shows that you still care
11:41:49JdGordonI';ve been arguing for the last hour that i sholdnt be expected to implementing something i disagree with
11:41:57LloreanNobody's telling you to implement it.
11:41:57kugelyou're still against what everone agreed to
11:42:04JdGordongiven the lack of caring by anyone else to actually do anything
11:42:06LloreanJust walk away from the discussion.
11:42:32JdGordon"and as long as t&d stays in system *or* system+settings merge I'm happy"
11:42:46alexbobpsideral: I had applied both patches
11:42:52LloreanIf you don't want to implement what the general consensus settled on, then don't. It'll stay unimplemented, or someone else will pick it up.
11:43:05kugelJdGordon: yes, and everyone agreed to move t&d to settings and rename system to about
11:43:15sideralalexbobp: the two patches at the top don't apply the needed change to sansfuzev2.h
11:43:21alexbobpsideral: and now I've installed some build from the forums that hangs on boot XD
11:43:27alexbobpsideral: oh I see
11:43:39alexbobpsideral: so I apply the second patch from the link I posted, and the one from the link you posted?
11:44:33sideralyeah. or just apply the patch I linked to and answer "no" to the revert questions it'll ask :)
11:44:47alexbobpsideral: I already trashed my stuff and have a clean tree
11:44:59sideraler, I meant: or just apply the patch I linked to *on top of the other two* and answer "no" to the revert questions it'll ask :)
11:45:06sideralah OK
11:46:35alexbobpsideral: do I also answer no to "apply anyway"?
11:46:38sideralAll: Which targets have a 320x240 touch screen? I'm looking for a nice usable theme for my nice&small Android device
11:47:00Lloreansideral: The Cowon D2 has one, I don't know how usable the theme really is though.
11:47:07[Saint]sideral: None.
11:47:27[Saint]the Cowon D2 has this res, but you mention "usable" as a requirement.
11:47:30[Saint]So, none ;)
11:47:35sideralalexbobp: that shouldn't happen. Paste log to pastebin?
11:47:54sideralSaint: can you make me one? please?
11:47:59sideral:)
11:48:10[Saint]I will do eventually. ;)
11:48:14alexbobpsideral: http://pastebin.com/VgjNDJUk
11:48:17[Saint]Its on my To-Do.
11:48:47sideralalexbobp: right, answer n there as well
11:49:23JdGordonsideral: no, beast is 320x240 isnt it?
11:49:29JdGordonor ipod video
11:49:34kugeltouch screen
11:49:49JdGordonexcatly... neither of those are touch
11:49:59sideralwell, I have a keyboard as well, so I could live without touch for the time being
11:50:22alexbobpsideral: huh?
11:50:53sideralsideral: the last comment belonged into the other conversation about Android :)
11:50:59sideraler, alexbobp^
11:51:47alexbobpah okay
11:52:07kugelsideral, Slasheri: I have a patch for reboot-less database enablement, but I'm unsure if it's correct w.r.t. to the load to ram feature
11:52:38kugelhttp://pastie.org/2459148
11:52:54alexbobpsideral: should I say y or n?
11:52:54 Quit TheLemonMan (Remote host closed the connection)
11:52:56sideralkugel: sounds cool! please put it on the tracker, I won't have time to review it for a few days
11:53:03alexbobpsideral: wait never mind
11:53:04alexbobpI'm retarded
11:53:08alexbobpI was misreading your answer
11:53:35alexbobpokay, building now
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11:53:49sideralalexbobp: If in doubt, always say no. :)
11:53:53alexbobplol
11:57:20alexbobpinstalling
11:57:48alexbobpoh no, I did major retard, stand by for fat filesystem corruption
11:57:53*sideral takes a look at Cowon D2 themes
11:58:16sideralsome seem not so bad
11:58:43sideralbut the "Doesn't work with current build" on the theme site scares me
12:00
12:00:33[Saint]sideral: Needs updating.
12:00:39[Saint]the touch region code change.
12:00:42[Saint]only a small edit.
12:00:54[Saint]I'll do itif you get stuck, but I'm kinda busy now.
12:01:31sideralSaint: thanks. Maybe I can do it myself if you point me to the relevant commit or mailing-list message?
12:03:06[Saint]r30129
12:03:25[Saint]oh...hang on, that should have been fixed.
12:04:57[Saint]H,mmmmm..apparently not.
12:05:24[Saint]unless the D2 uses the mrobe500's wps.
12:06:01alexbobpsideral: data abort at 300547A8, FSB 0x8, domain 0, fault 8, address 0x8B000034
12:06:23alexbobpwell at least it's trying now XD
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12:09:22[Saint]JdGordon: You ever noticed that the touchscreen changes were never added to the manual, or CustomWPS?
12:09:42[Saint]re: *, & and ! (what *is* !, btw...?)
12:10:01[Saint]commit 30129
12:10:29JdGordonwhich ones in particular?
12:10:52JdGordonerr, they've been replaced
12:10:53[Saint]None of the touch area prefixes are defined.
12:11:01JdGordonand that change is in the manual and wiki
12:11:15[Saint]Ah....right, *that*s why ;)
12:11:33[Saint]I forgot about that change ;)
12:11:50JdGordonhttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CustomWPS#Touchscreen_areas look at options
12:12:23[Saint]yeah, I grepped for * & and !
12:12:32[Saint]*fail!*
12:12:44JdGordonclose as I'm going to get to an apology :)
12:12:54 Quit Bagder (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
12:15:37 Join Bagder [241] (~daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
12:30:09CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30395): Build libgme with the same compiler settings as other codecs.
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12:33:11CIA-14r30395 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (buschel committed)
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12:47:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:50:16JdGordonwhere are the docs on buflib usage?
12:55:20jhMikeSheh, docs
12:55:54*JdGordon wonders why buflib.h is in firmware/export/include
12:56:06JdGordonI thught that was for posix compatability headers?
12:57:18sideralalexbobp: hmm. looks like the USB driver does not work for you, then. :-( (assuming you made no other change)
12:57:25BuscheljhMikeS: : can you take a look at the warning in libspc? by fault I also removed the "-fno-strict-aliasing" compile option for it. Is there a proper solution or do I need to enable it again?
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12:58:06jhMikeSBuschel: err, I forget what that's about, something with the echo...hold on
12:59:40kugelpJdGordon: its not
12:59:56JdGordon/firmware/include sorry
13:00
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13:01:03jhMikeSBuschel: yeah, it wouldn't not whine about reinterpreting the pointer
13:01:58Buschelso, I should enable it again?
13:02:42jhMikeSperhaps, or I can just try a quick change
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13:04:34Buschelok, I would prefer such a quick change :)
13:07:54sideralSaint: r30129 is "Update the french translation, shorten string for Archos Player." −− Are you sure?
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13:13:48[Saint]sideral: sorry, 30219
13:14:03[Saint]...lucky I saw that, highlights seem to be non-working here.
13:15:40sideralHmm. The theme I'm looking at doesn't use %Tl, but is reported as broken with current nonetheless
13:15:45jhMikeSBuschel: this seems to work here: http://pastebin.com/imJ7p6wL
13:16:02sideralSaint: AW200glass
13:16:47*[Saint] hands sideral checkwps
13:17:27sideralthanks! does it produce better error messages than what's shown in the mouse-overs on the theme site?
13:17:38BuscheljhMikeS: fine :) will you submit it? I cannot test it on a target
13:17:48[Saint]I _think_ it just spits a line number ;)
13:18:09jhMikeSBuschel: sure
13:18:20[Saint]Oh...what am I saying. No, no it doesn't.
13:18:25[Saint]that's what the themesite uses ;)
13:18:36 Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
13:19:16[Saint]So if the themesite is not verbose enough for you, checkwps won't help one bit I don't think.
13:19:18CIA-14New commit by 03jethead71 (r30396): Get rid of strict aliasing warnings for ARMv6 spc_dsp.c. Just do load in asm block instead.
13:22:12CIA-14r30396 build result: All green
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13:25:16Buschel jhMikeS: thanks
13:25:24jhMikeSwelcome
13:29:49jhMikeSoooh, fancy new debug screen :)
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13:56:11sideralSaint: gdb says checkwps barfs at this SBS line: %T(272,26,40,40,&cancel)
13:56:53JdGordonwhy the &
13:56:57sideralI guess that should be ..., cancel, repeat_press) then?
13:56:58JdGordonthat was removed ages ago
13:57:01JdGordonyes
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13:57:39[Saint]",cancel,repeat_press"
13:57:42sideralI guess the theme author want compatibility with 3.9?
13:57:49[Saint]NO NEEDLESS SPACES!
13:57:57JdGordonspaces add readability!
13:57:59[Saint]heh...says "the king of whitespace" ;P
13:58:10*[Saint] retracts.
13:58:12JdGordonwant me to commit a patch to the parser to force spaces?
13:58:14[Saint]Space all you want.
13:58:32[Saint]errr...dammit, bad timing.
13:58:36[Saint]No, no I don't ;)
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14:10:17jhMikeSwhy is the operation in tdspeed considered "autocorrelation" - it hardly appears to be that
14:22:11jhMikeSmmm, it's considered "the difference function"
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14:54:56JdGordonwhat happened to the parse_*(line?) fnction we used to have?
14:54:59JdGordonwas it nuked?
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15:00:13JdGordonyep... bugger
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15:01:09kugelJdGordon: misc.c?
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15:52:44JdGordonhow the heck does the shortcuts plugin work?
15:56:36[Saint]poorly?
15:57:38JdGordoneer, I should say, how does the list work? where is the list stored, etc
15:57:46JdGordonis it in the manual?
15:58:36*JdGordon hopes the wiki is accurate
15:58:42JdGordonok, so its the viewer for .link files
16:00
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16:04:55*GodEater_ doesn't know how it works these days - but I did write the original version of it
16:05:08*JdGordon now has a patch to get a *much* better version of the shortcuts plugin in the core
16:05:26JdGordonand llike I said quite a few hours ago.... the .*diff* is under 400 lines
16:05:39GodEater_explain "much better" plz
16:05:47JdGordonand after I change it to use buflib the ram delta will be SFA if you dont use it
16:05:59JdGordonGodEater_: 1) it can work for just about any setting
16:06:10JdGordon2) it actually runs files instead of just opening the browser there
16:06:16GodEater_it wasn't designed for settings back in the day
16:06:27JdGordonincluding plugins, m3u files, anything
16:06:43GodEater_and it wasn't supposed to "run" files either - it was supposed to dump you there in the browser
16:06:52JdGordonok
16:06:56GodEater_that was *specifically* the use case request
16:07:19GodEater_although the settings thing is cool
16:07:21JdGordonI completly forgot about the shortcuts plugin untill about 20min ago
16:07:35JdGordonit wasnt done as a replacement but as requested functionality
16:07:55GodEater_using buflib for it is a great idea
16:08:51GodEater_I seem to recall getting it commited was contraversial at the time
16:09:03GodEater_as it was both a viewer, a plugin, and had a menu entry
16:09:08JdGordonbrb, irssi is being screwy
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16:10:10[Saint]Sounds as though if there were an option for this to launch, or take one to, the desired shortcut object...the shortcut plugin could be tossed?
16:10:17[Saint]errr..."tossed out"
16:10:22*[Saint] eyes the brittish
16:10:27[Saint]-t
16:10:51GodEater_my poor shortcut plugin.
16:10:59GodEater_:`(
16:11:05JdGordon|it could stay around as a UI for editing the .link file :)
16:11:24[Saint]that's what text editor is for! ;)
16:11:55JdGordon|well true, it already has a mode for the .colours file :)
16:11:56[Saint]but, yeah, JdGordon|... a launch/take me to option *might* be needed, if its not a PITA
16:12:04[Saint]then it could be, a replacement.
16:12:07GodEater_*needed* ?
16:12:33JdGordon|[Saint]: this is me we are talking about.... its completly configurable right now
16:12:35[Saint]GodEater_: well, yeah...unless regression is a wanted thing?
16:12:57GodEater_it is not needed - it might be a nice to have
16:13:00JdGordon|"file: /path/to/file.ext" will run the file, "browse: /path/to/file/.ext" will open the browser there
16:13:05[Saint]this sounds like it does completely kill the shortcuts plugin.
16:13:07GodEater_if it were *needed* it would have been done years ago
16:13:16JdGordon|the difference is 1 line of code :)
16:13:22[Saint]and, if that was the objective of said plugin....it needs to do at least what it could do.
16:15:42*JdGordon| wonders if he can write a simple xml parser in under 50 lines
16:15:59GodEater_I bet you could
16:16:06GodEater_I also bet it wouldn't be feature complete ;)
16:16:15JdGordon|for sure
16:16:38JdGordon|to do this nicely it needs a bunch of config items for each line which parse_setting() cant handle right now
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16:17:05kugelJdGordon|: what is this you're working on?
16:17:27JdGordon|<item name="something" icon="1" type="file" /> is all it needs to support
16:18:03JdGordon|just something I want that will probably not see the light of day
16:18:35[Saint]I wouldn't go that far...
16:18:42JdGordon|?
16:18:57[Saint]Oh, whoops...confusing two things.
16:19:11[Saint]you meant the XML parser when you said that, I guess.
16:20:03JdGordon|that xml line is the minimal options that I want to support *right now*... concievebly there would be more
16:20:34JdGordon|currently im using a shit system which isnt going to work in the long term
16:20:55JdGordon|<type>:<path>[,title]
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16:22:35JdGordon|what is the format of the .link files?
16:23:08*Torne supports using anything except xml for this stuff. :)
16:23:23Tornexml is unnecessarily complicated
16:23:37JdGordon|not the full spec obvisouly, nothing more complex that that line
16:23:44JdGordon|but it is slightly human readable
16:23:45TorneNonono
16:23:52Tornedon't use something that look slike xml either
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16:23:55Tornebecuse 1) it's ugly
16:23:59JdGordon|how would you do it?
16:24:00Torneand 2) people will assume it is xml
16:24:03JdGordon|I dont want more than one line pr item if it can be avoided
16:24:36Torneprobably json
16:24:37kugelhttp://old.nabble.com/binutils-2.20.1a-replaced-by-2.20.1-and-so-2.21.1a−−to32363179.html
16:24:52*JdGordon| doesnt know what json is other than a web thingy
16:24:52Torneor something similar.
16:25:04TorneJdGordon|: for this purpose: javascript literals
16:25:28JdGordon|pastebin an example similar to the xml line please?
16:25:30Torne{'name': 'something', 'icon': '1', 'type': 'file'}
16:25:42Tornethough i wouldn't form it quite like that
16:26:22JdGordon|http://pastebin.com/1XdetBiy are my two optoins really
16:26:26JdGordon|the sedon is annoying to parse
16:26:27Tornesomething more yaml-like might be nicer
16:26:39Torneit is?
16:26:39JdGordon|I dont see how that is nicer to read or parse than xml
16:26:54JdGordon|sedon = second one
16:27:00TorneNop, i mean
16:27:05Tornethat's not hard to parse at all
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16:27:10n1skugel: ah so it was some unusual issue that doesn't affect us at all
16:27:12Tornethat's just ConfigParser/ini/whatever you want to call it style
16:27:14Tornethat's totally trivial
16:27:20kugeln1s: yes
16:27:32kugelalthough theyre lying and the new file doesn't just contain new files
16:27:37TorneJSON's quoting requirements are a bit yucky.
16:27:40n1sMr. Someone should patch rockboxdev.sh
16:27:41Tornejson is more tolerant
16:27:43Torneer
16:27:45Torneyaml is more tolerant
16:27:50JdGordon|Torne: keeping track of the itme we are in... it is trivial, but its just yuck :)
16:28:04JdGordon|probably will go the second way though
16:28:21TorneJdGordon|: If you thnk you caan write a parser for hte xml-like one that doesn't have to keep track of exactly the same thing you are mistaken
16:28:26TorneThose examples are *identical*
16:28:32JdGordon|it means any UI to move it has t load the whole file and rewrite, it cant do inplace swaps
16:28:47JdGordon|i know
16:28:48Torneer, what?
16:28:53kugelthe second one is compatible with the .cfg format (assuming an implicit default namespace)
16:28:55Torneanwyay. yaml is civilisation
16:29:45Torneif you lose the ini-style section markers and just indent and use more keys you have a yaml subset :)
16:29:56JdGordon|kugel: whats the smallest buffer size buflib copes with without being nasty with fragments?
16:30:16kugel1 byte
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16:30:19JdGordon|do I do my own buf management on larger chunks?
16:30:40JdGordon|err, K, whats the handle overhead
16:31:28kugel5*sizeof(void*) + strlen(name) (rounded up to sizeof(void*)
16:31:29JdGordon|doing 1 handle for each 128 byte struct isnt very good if the overhead is biger than that
16:31:50kugelso ~30bytes
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16:32:34kugelyou can do a big alloc and shrink it later
16:33:50JdGordon|Torne: our optimised readline doesnt work very well with multi-line configs which is why I want to avoid that
16:34:17*JdGordon| has a play
16:34:21Tornehuh?
16:34:42Tornei don't think we're quite talking about the same thing :)
16:34:53JdGordon|im sure we arent
16:35:02*JdGordon| knows what he is talking about... that's the main thing
16:35:07JdGordon|it is after all past midnight here
16:35:28TorneIf you care about lines i am inclined to think you are doing it wrong :)
16:35:41Torneparsers are parsers; bytes are bytes
16:36:04JdGordon|yeah, but using the existing readline api to do minimal work
16:37:28TorneOh, i see what you mean
16:37:58Tornei don't think it's necessary, thoguh
16:38:13JdGordon|I'm going to put a int** into that params to keep track of the current item for each line
16:38:19*JdGordon| is porbably over engineering this
16:39:21TorneAnyway. even using fast_readline you can do it exactyl as easily with the other form, i'm pretty sure
16:39:25*Torne shrugs
16:40:46Tornethere doesn't need to be a 1:1 relationship between your actual data structure and lines int he file..
16:43:05JdGordon|no, but you need to keep track of the block currently being parsed
16:43:24JdGordon|each block starts with [whatever]
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16:52:05gluedhm, SanDisk made the Zip fw available right away, and there's *no logical need* for that −− it's vanilla.
16:52:13glueddon't you think it was a move towards Rockbox, so that the porting could start w/o waiting-for-fw-bin delay?
16:52:29TorneJdGordon|: Right, but that's no harder than any other way, i mean
16:53:04TorneJdGordon|: Also, I don't think you do, technically
16:53:09Torneit depends what your data structure looks like.
16:53:24Torneyou can infer it from the data you already parsed, probably
16:53:42JdGordon|you need to keep track of what you've already parsed though
16:53:52[Saint]glued: I highly, highly doubt that.
16:53:59Tornenot really, no
16:54:19JdGordon|glued: plenty of work has been done for the zip already, we are just waiting for someone to get one
16:55:05gluedyes, i know about bertik, i'm about the fact the fw was published
16:55:33gluednot the update, like with clips, but the original
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17:01:46gluedwith clip+ we all had to wait damn months for the bin to make bl, and here it is −− fw avail right away, without any techinical reasons for publishing it
17:02:37gluedmaybe i' naive, but it looks like an unofficial friendly move
17:06:46gluedanyway, i end up half of my post at their forums with "share with Rockbox, like you planned long ago" :) and some other do that too.
17:11:11Zagorglued: I agree it's curious
17:13:12JdGordon|[Saint]: fs#12251
17:13:13fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12251 3user shortcuts in the main menu (patches, new)
17:13:39[Saint]\0/
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19:04:04gbl08maI'm figuring out that it's impossible to use a LUA script as a viewer...
19:04:28gbl08ma1st because I'm not sure if it's possible to access the parameter from a lua script
19:05:35gbl08ma2nd because I can't seem to be able to open a file with a lua script after putting my script in .rockbox/rocks/viewers and editing viewers.config
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19:24:35gbl08mathe "admin work needed" badge has been on the themes site for how long? and what work exactly is needed?
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19:30:06[Saint]copyright violation perhaps...
19:30:12[Saint]broken themes.
19:30:46gevaertsAt least half are people not realising that "report theme" means "ask someone to look at this"
19:30:53evildaemonI HOPE were not sitting on a copyright violation.
19:31:16[Saint]evildaemon: there's likely several.
19:31:22[Saint]but it takes someone to notice.
19:31:31evildaemonAnd no ones got to them?
19:31:32[Saint]themes aren't reviewed for content.
19:31:37[Saint]they just need to parse.
19:31:59[Saint]so, someone needs to report them, *then* someone needs to *do* something about it.
19:32:24[Saint]asking to review many hundreds of themes for violation is a joke.
19:32:33[Saint]we ask the user does this *before* uploading.
19:32:44gevaertsevildaemon: if you know a system to reliably determine if some image is either original work or licensed under a cc-by-sa license, please tell us
19:32:51evildaemon*shrug* I'd assume no one would review them, I'd just think that if I saw some stuff marked "look at this" and it was for copyright infringement I'd get on removing it pretty fast.
19:33:28gevaertsThere are *no* reports of copyright issues on the theme site at this time
19:33:44evildaemonWell okay then.
19:34:00[Saint]I was just using that as an example of what things do get reported.
19:34:20gevaertsBut as [Saint] said that doesn't mean all theme uploaders understand the license we ask them to agree to
19:34:44evildaemonOr that there AREN'T any violations, just no ones found them yet.
19:34:58evildaemon(Or reported them.)
19:35:11[Saint]well, if there aren't any...no one could find them. ;)
19:35:13gevaertswell, that's what a violation *is*
19:35:23evildaemonI meant, if there are.
19:35:32evildaemonThey have not yet been found.
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19:36:06evildaemonI was continuing on the "That doesn't mean...."
19:36:48evildaemonRegardless, wasn't the original issue about the admin stamp?
19:37:53[Saint]Yes, the admin stamp that pops up when someone clicks "report". But as gevaerts mentioned, lots of people think that button == "hey, this is cool"
19:38:06[Saint]like a Fb "like" button or somesuch :-S
19:40:41evildaemon"This theme has been [strike]liked[/strike] reported 9006 times!!!"
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19:59:10PradyumnaHii
20:00
20:00:17saratogakind of interesting results running battery tests on sansa amsv2 players: the CLip+ gets massiely better battery life in rockbox then the OF, but the ClipV2 gets better battery life in the OF then rockbox
20:01:13PradyumnaThe playlist in clip+ is showing file names how to change it to show song titles??
20:01:49PradyumnaAnyone??
20:02:46bertriksaratoga, interesting indeed
20:03:19saratogagoing to rerun the test to make sure the battery bench didn't crap out early
20:03:45Pradyumnahello
20:04:06gevaertsPradyumna: rockbox doesn't do that
20:04:18bertriksaratoga, battery bench should log the reason for exiting the plugin, something like exiting plugin, reason: poweroff
20:04:30PradyumnaAny other solution??
20:04:41PradyumnaThe file names are too long
20:04:55PradyumnaArtist - Album - Song name
20:05:22saratogabertrik: it doesn't give a reason, but the voltage reads 3.300 volts, so i'm sure its a battery poweroff
20:07:22saratogabut yeah the results are so strange, i get 6 hours longer in RB then the OF for the Clip+, but 3 hours less on the Clipv2 in RB
20:07:30saratogathat makes no sense for two players with nearly identical hardware
20:08:15saratogaalso i get that the Clipv2 battery life in the OF is much better then the Clip+'s which also doesn't make much sense
20:10:53[Saint]odd results...
20:10:55Pradyumnaare there other plugins line picture flow?
20:11:01Pradyumnalike*
20:11:16[Saint]Pradyumna: No.
20:11:27[Saint]That's the only one of its kind.
20:12:17bertrikhm, there's also a clip v1 runtime result where rockbox gets 5h29m while the OF gets 14h59m
20:12:25PradyumnaI'm On a clip+ all the album art shows ? Is it like that or should i do something
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20:13:19[Saint]Album Art *will* look like shit on a monochrome OLED screen, this is a fact ;)
20:13:42PradyumnaI agree
20:13:46Pradyumnajust asking
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20:15:02[Saint]Instead of the pixels displaying (as they're supposed to) either on, or off, we flash them at differing rates to give the effect of different shades.
20:15:18[Saint]its a trick of the eye, to achieve an effect the screen isn't designed for.
20:16:25gbl08maPradyumna: The only thing in Rockbox that allows you to display only the title of the songs and ignore the filename is the Database, but that doesn't have any effect on the playlist.
20:17:12PradyumnaGuess i have to rename all songs its the only solution
20:17:49PradyumnaCan we make our own fonts?
20:18:14gbl08mapersonally I rename my music files as Artist - Song - Album since this way I can have Artist and Song first, which is how I usually search for music. The rule is: put what you find more important first :)
20:18:44gbl08mayes you can convert existing fonts into Rockbox font format, there's info on the wiki on how to do that
20:19:51gbl08maI don't know if the Clip+ is able to display antialiased fonts, but if it is, you better use antialiased. I don't know, however, if there's already a guide written on how to convert AA fonts.
20:20:16Slasheri[Saint]: on lcd that pixel flashing should produce quite smooth shade (lcd reacts slowly), but leds have instant effect. So switching frequency needs to be higher for leds, but probably panel frame rate limits that
20:21:20gbl08maPradyumna: If it isn't able to display AA fonts, you can convert to the conventional mono format. This one the Clip+ displays for sure.
20:21:49[Saint]it _should_ be able to do AA, it'd probably look gross, though.
20:22:03PradyumnaI want nothing fancy
20:22:10Pradyumnajust box shaped fonts
20:22:14gevaerts[Saint]: AA on monochrome?
20:22:44[Saint]gevaerts: Can't we do the same form of trickery there?
20:22:55[Saint]Oh..right, it needs greylib in core.
20:22:55gevaertsno greylib in core
20:23:09[Saint]ha! finally beat ya! ;)
20:23:18gbl08magreylib is not in core?
20:24:00gbl08ma(if greylib was put on the core, then AA fonts and greyscale icons could be possible)
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20:26:10gevaertsgbl08ma: greylib implies more RAM usage *and* lots of CPU
20:26:28wodzgreylib in core will kill the perfomance and impact battery life severely
20:26:43*gbl08ma is envy that there are more themes for the monochrome Sansas than for the iPod nanos...
20:27:02PradyumnaLoL
20:27:03gbl08maok, i forgot the RAM is limited, the CPU is not that fast and the batteries are not inifnite :)
20:27:22[Saint]quantity isn't quality.
20:27:48[Saint]its one of the easier targets to code themes for.
20:28:00[Saint]you can get away without using viewports pretty easy.
20:30:18gbl08mapersonally I would design more themes for the nanos but there're a few problems on my side that prevent me from doing it: 1) I have not much graphic editing skills 2) Nano 2G has no radio so that screen would be missing 3) I have a bit of a hard time understanding the themes language
20:30:51wodznano can have radio as an addon
20:31:08gbl08manot the 2nd gen
20:31:37[Saint]errrr....
20:31:47gbl08maThe only theme work I ever did apart from personal tweaks was porting photoSkins to nano, something I'm still very proud of :P
20:32:08[Saint]there most certainly are FM headphone adapters for the 2G
20:33:09[Saint]I have dumps of all the iPod OF bitmaps, I know its there ;)
20:33:51gbl08maRockbox on the iPod Nano 2G has no acessory protocol support yet that I know of. Look, "Radio" doesn't show on the menu on the 2G nano, but shows on the 1G. Obviously the OF has support for those adapters with their own headphone out.
20:34:35gbl08mathe OF has support both on 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G (5G has radio builtin and I gunno about 6G)
20:34:36[Saint]you didn't say "no radio on Rockbox", though.
20:34:43gbl08maright
20:34:44[Saint]you said "no radio"
20:35:26gbl08maI don't care about the OF so for me it's like it has no support. Anyways, I don't have one of those adapters.
20:35:59gbl08maand I don't feel like buying one for an iPod that has a scrollwheel that's getting faulty. better invest the money on a new DAP with builtin radio.
20:36:39*gbl08ma takes a look at the Sansa Fuze again and thinks "I damn need to save money to buy one of these!"
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20:39:05gbl08maI saw the huge discussion on the customizable menus, junction of Settings with System, Settings -> System, System -> Settings and About menu on IRC logs
20:40:16 Part jchysk
20:41:08gbl08maand I'd like to have my say on it, so quickly, here it is: the only menu I really like to see customizable is the quick screen, that is, if it handled more than 4 entries and did not only support settings but also files/plugins/menu shortcuts/etc.
20:41:45 Join coinich [0] (~7d1@giant.haxx.se)
20:41:50coinichanyone on?
20:42:13gbl08mato handle more than four entries, it would either need to be a menu (thus not being really quick, and you'd loose "blind" operation mode), or be a quickscreen with multiple pages
20:42:25gbl08macoinich: yes :)
20:43:14bertrikgbl08ma, then at some point we could organise the entries like a list and it would be just like our main menu?
20:44:01gbl08mawell, i think you guys are seeing the main menu as replacement for the quick screen, and that's not how things should be IMO
20:44:03coinichoh hello
20:44:07coinichquick question
20:44:32coinichthe main page says the most recent version is 3.9, and it was released in June 2011
20:44:41coinichI thought there was a major release or patch this past week?
20:44:53coinichwas there supposed to be one, but it got pushed back?
20:45:22gbl08macoinich: this last week there were many improvements, but no stable release has been made
20:45:31gevaertscoinich: there were plans to release 3.9.1 with some fixes last week, but that got delayed. It's not a major new version though
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20:46:33*gbl08ma thinks we should wait until further decision is made on custom menus and then if they get implemented (and well tested), release 4.0
20:47:06gevaertsgbl08ma: *decisions* are easy
20:47:10gbl08maat the end, since 3.9, we already have an audio mixer, buflib in the core and many tiny fixes
20:47:23coinichah, ok, thanks
20:47:54coinichI must've misread
20:48:06***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:48:46gbl08magevaerts: I know, I mean decision should be taken *and* work on it should be done if we decide to implement custom menus
20:51:12*gbl08ma also *thinks* that multiple/relocatable plugins is something more interesting than customizable menus, and effort should be put on the former instead of spinning around with the latter
20:51:30gbl08mabut I'm not a developer, I'm not the one who works for it :)
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20:55:03tronsehello guys
20:55:20tronseive finally managed to rockbox my clip+
20:55:48tronsebig thanks to bluebrother for helping me last week :)
20:56:21tronsebut now i have yet another silly question
20:56:40bluebroth3rtronse: you're welcome :)
20:57:03Tornegbl08ma: there's very little overlap between the required skills/work there, so it's unlikely that one is stopping the other getting done
20:57:27tronsehow do i put the clip+ on hold while in rockbox?
20:57:49tronseive googled this and came up with different answers
20:58:23tronsei was told home + select but this doesnt work
20:58:28Torneif you read the manual you will find the *right* answer
20:58:33Torne:)
20:58:52tronse:)
20:59:07bluebroth3rthe manual says Home + Select ;-)
20:59:20tronsethe manual also says home button and select?
20:59:28Torneindeed. that's because that's how you do it
20:59:39bluebroth3rhmm, that's for the wps.
20:59:52tronsei tried but no luck
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21:00
21:00:12gevaertsAs far as I know, there's no soft lock outside of the wps
21:00:30tronseoh....
21:00:33*bluebroth3r has no clip+ so no idea
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21:01:21tronsei see...
21:01:24tronseoh well
21:02:04LloreanWhy do you want hold outside the WPS?
21:02:29tronsebecause of accidental press
21:03:17Zagorgo to wps before putting it in your pocket?
21:03:35bluebroth3rif the playlist ended / is stopped you might want one. I use hold on my Ipod for that: to prevent it doing things and not having to turn it off :)
21:04:17Lloreanbluebroth3r: Does the hold cancel if playback ends, I wonder?
21:04:18 Quit coinich (Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF))
21:04:59Lloreantronse: I wasn't asking why you wanted hold in general, but why specifically hold in the WPS wasn't enough.
21:06:33bluebroth3rLlorean: I guess not, but if nothing is actually playing I do see a reason why one might want to enable hold :)
21:06:33tronseoh i see :)
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21:07:04bluebroth3rhold is overrated anyway :P
21:07:13tronseheh
21:07:14Lloreanbluebroth3r: The Clip+ boots nearly instantly. I'd say turning it off is a valid option if nothing's playing. :)
21:07:19gevaertsbluebroth3r: if nothing is playing, I'd switch the thing off :)
21:07:36gevaertsPlayback ending is a valid concern of course
21:07:50tronsei havent actually tried that hold optoon in the WPS
21:07:50*gevaerts also doesn't have a clip+
21:07:59tronseso i shall try when i get home :)
21:08:23bluebroth3rgevaerts: I did that in the past. Though recently I'm rather enabling hold instead of turning it off −− I need to enable hold anyway, since my backpack has some feature to press Select on the Ipod when I don't want it to do that :)
21:09:02gevaertsbluebroth3r: ipods are too easy to switch on accidentally
21:09:41gbl08magevaerts: keep the hold switch on, it won't turn on accidentally
21:09:57*gevaerts doesn't actually use an ipod :)
21:10:07bertrikDid anyone figure out yet what the binutil 2.20.1 vs 2.20.1a thing is about?
21:10:13gevaertsBut yes, my gigabeat F tends to be on hold
21:10:28bluebroth3rgevaerts: indeed.
21:10:35gevaertsI don't see myself having that problem with a clip-style switch though
21:11:04LloreanI used to put my Gigabeat on hold all the time. I've never felt the need to use the soft hold on my Clip+.
21:11:21LloreanI typically actually clip it to my pocket, where the buttons aren't likely to get bumped.
21:12:47gbl08mathat's why a Clip is for: to clip :)
21:12:53gbl08mas/why/what
21:15:05gbl08mais it just me or the "News" section in the Rockbox Forums is good for burning the screen of old CRT screens? :)
21:19:02gevaertsgbl08ma: it moves!
21:19:51CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30397): Update libgme to Blargg's Game_Music_Emu 0.6-pre.
21:22:14CIA-14r30397 build result: 457 errors, 460 warnings (buschel committed)
21:23:17 Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
21:23:24Buschelgreat, did compile flawlessly for all of my builds :(
21:24:21gevaertsBuschel: we all get our turn at this :)
21:25:24 Quit Pradyumna (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
21:29:23CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30398): Check for CPU_ARM in libgme/blip_buffer.
21:29:27Buschel#1
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21:31:28CIA-14r30398 build result: 184 errors, 54 warnings (buschel committed)
21:31:50Buschelgood, now to the rest
21:31:51tronsenow an offf topic question :)
21:32:25tronselast week i purchased an alienware M11x (R1)
21:32:41gbl08matronse: #rockbox-community
21:32:50tronsejust wondering what good games i could play on it
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21:32:58PradyumnaJust noticed that photoflow shows the album art but only for a few albums
21:33:20Pradyumnaany specifications to work on all albums??
21:33:32PradyumnaCLip+
21:41:15 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
21:42:20CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30399): Fix some more libgme compile issues.
21:44:43CIA-14r30399 build result: 144 errors, 0 warnings (buschel committed)
21:45:02 Quit gbl08ma (Quit: Page closed)
21:48:37*Buschel cannot see the error :/
21:49:44n1sbertrik: yeah, kugel found it and linked earlier, some license issue with generated files not including the source that was used to generate them, iow nothing that concerns users
21:50:48bertrikthanks, I think we should update rockboxdev.sh
21:51:17n1syes
21:53:18n1sBuschel: looking at the preprocessed source might help
21:53:57Buscheln1s: I cannot even reproduce this error
21:54:38n1sah, tricky, seems to be only gcc 4.4.4...
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21:59:44amiconnBuschel: I guess it might be due to completely #undef ing assert()
21:59:50 Quit tronse (Quit: CGI:IRC)
21:59:57 Quit bluefoxx_ (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
21:59:57amiconn(in blargg_source.h)
22:00
22:00:42amiconnOr rather, redefining it as empty
22:02:29amiconnn1s: Not just 4.4.4, also 4.4.5 (at least)
22:02:38amiconn(homepc-petur)
22:02:59amiconn4.6.1 too
22:03:15amiconn4.5.1
22:03:27amiconnSo probably all sufficiently new versions
22:03:37Buschelthis damn libgme is giving me a hard time with each big change...
22:04:39amiconnBtw, what would be necessary to enable android builds on a box?
22:06:20Zagoramiconn: install android sdk, ndk and enable arch "android30" i runclient.sh
22:06:32Buschelcan anybody reproduce the build errors on his machine? I would like to have a patch tested before I blind-commit it
22:06:39amiconnSdk & ndk are installed on 'saturn'
22:06:59amiconnThe cronjob might have path problems though - have to double chek that
22:07:06Zagoramiconn: you also need environment variables ANDROID_SDK_PATH and ANDROID_NDK_PATH set
22:07:32amiconnHmm, should probably set those in runclient.sh then
22:09:48amiconnBuschel: Yes I can
22:09:48wodzany schedule for git migration?
22:10:13amiconngcc 4.6.1 (debian sid)
22:11:05Buschelamiconn: great! -> http://pastie.org/2461790
22:11:51Buscheldoes not empty define assert(), but replaces all libgme-internal assert()'s with empty defined require()'s
22:12:05Zagorisn't it better to fix the assert define?
22:12:55Buschelwell, the code already had require() and assert(). this way libgme only uses one way (= require())
22:13:06 Quit y4n (Quit: Today is the perfect day for a perfect day.)
22:14:25amiconngmrl
22:14:38amiconnThe patch doesn't apply. Probably a problem on my end though
22:16:24*Buschel will crosscheck
22:16:40amiconnHmm, can't find it
22:16:48amiconnI get lots of failed hunks
22:17:31n1scan't you just #define assert() do{} while(0) ?
22:17:38Buschelworks for me with "patch -p0 <" against r30399
22:17:54amiconnThat's what I tried
22:18:11gevaertsLine ending issues with pastie.org?
22:18:38amiconnI downloaded it via the 'download' link and line endings look unix-ish
22:18:45amiconn(using wget)
22:19:12 Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
22:19:17Buschelamiconn: http://www.sendspace.com/file/o8myhe
22:20:34 Part tguinot
22:20:38amiconnThat one works... so indeed a download-from-pastie problem
22:20:55Buschelgood, so far :)
22:20:57amiconnUnfortunately it doesn't fix the build error...
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22:25:19amiconnOn my box the error is in stdio.h line 417, and that one is related to dprintf
22:25:25amiconnSo my assert theory is wrong
22:27:03Buschellook at blargg_source.h :/
22:27:24Buschel#define dprintf DEBUGF
22:28:56Zagorsimple fix: move the local include to below the system includes
22:29:15Zagorwe don't really want to redefine dprintf in stdio.h
22:29:38Zagordo we?
22:29:38Buschelamiconn: does this worok?
22:30:03amiconndefine 'this'
22:30:11Zagormoving the include fixed it for me (gcc 4.6.1)
22:30:14PradyumnaGood custom font for Clip+
22:30:33Buschelthis = move local include below system includes in ym2612_emu.c
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22:30:58Zagorhttp://pastie.org/2461881
22:32:51amiconnSeems to work here too
22:33:20Buschelcompiles for my environment as well
22:34:45CIA-14New commit by 03buschel (r30400): Fix residual red, thanks to Zagor.
22:34:50BuschelLet's see
22:34:53*amiconn thinks that blargg_source.h is the correct name for this code ;)
22:36:57CIA-14r30400 build result: 2 errors, 0 warnings (buschel committed)
22:37:35wodzheh, running time seems count incorrectly. 30s in running time lasts 46-47s on my stopwatch. sleep(HZ*30) in bootloader is correct so this is not pll setup problem
22:37:36Zagorkugel's android build environment is broken
22:38:25*Buschel assumes this is not caused by his changes
22:38:49ZagorI'd say that is a fair assumption :-)
22:38:57Buschel:)
22:42:00n1swodz: freq scaling?
22:42:17wodzno
22:44:18amiconnZagor: Hopefully my box will do proper android box in the next round
22:44:30Zagornice
22:44:33amiconnErr, android builds of course
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22:46:23amiconnZagor: Is it possible to block a client from doing certain architectures only?
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22:48:07***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:48:27Zagoramiconn: no, it's all or nothing.
22:49:31 Quit Horscht (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
22:50:22Buschelgood night, and thanks for your support!
22:50:23amiconnWould be helpful if a client has one broken (cross)compiler but is otherwise working fine
22:50:25 Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941])
22:53:51 Quit XavierGr ()
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22:54:59glueder... anybody used rockboxdev.sh lately? seems like binutils-2.20.1 were renamed to 2.20.1a at mirrors.kernel.org/gnu/binutils so the script needs to be updated
22:56:42B4gderyes
22:56:51B4gderthe older one is mysteriously removed
22:59:00n1sno, the mystery qwas solved, licese issue
22:59:13 Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
22:59:21B4gderoh, I missed that
22:59:27bluebroth3rlicense issue?
23:00
23:00:04n1ssome generated files were included but not the source for them
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23:00:16n1ssome lexer thing like bison iirc
23:00:33n1skugel linked it here earlier
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23:01:36bluebroth3rah
23:01:39gluedbtw, (iirc) the binutils patch had a comment "we don't need this at all when 2.21 is out". and it's kinda out, isn't it?
23:02:07n1syes, but we don't use it, yet
23:02:30*bluebroth3r wonders why some code that works for the widget doesn't work as notification
23:03:02n1sbluebroth3r: am i right thinking rbutil only makes voice files for the current svn .langs
23:03:05n1s?
23:03:31B4gderso "someone" should then fix rockboxdev.sh in svn ...
23:03:48n1sB4gder: i already told Mr. Someone to do it!
23:03:52B4gdergood!
23:04:10n1si can do it tomorrow unless anybody else does it
23:04:22n1sas i'd like to test build first
23:04:22bluebroth3rn1s: yes, and releases
23:04:43bluebroth3rerr, no, scrap that.
23:04:52n1sbluebroth3r: does it select by magic or does the user have to?
23:04:58n1sah
23:06:54bluebroth3rn1s: it retrieves the currently installed version from rockbox-info.txt and passes that to the script that retrieves the strings
23:07:12n1sah, magic :)
23:07:46n1sany idea about fs#12248 then?
23:07:46fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12248 3Voice files created but don't match voice prompts with items in menu (bugs, unconfirmed)
23:09:03bluebroth3rn1s: kinda :)
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23:11:55bluebroth3rhmm, with the move to git those scripts will break :/
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23:40:19bluebroth3rI really don't get this.
23:40:41[Saint]?
23:40:44bluebroth3rsetting the image for the notification doesn't work, but the same Uri works for the widget
23:41:01[Saint]What're you playing with?
23:41:15bluebroth3rAlbum Art in the notification area
23:41:35[Saint]Hehehehe.... /me imagines tiny QVGA AA
23:41:47[Saint]I think I'd get 22px to play with ;)
23:42:00bluebroth3rI get an image displayed, but not the album art one. The same image path is pushed to the widget though, and it works for that. It's basically the same code :(
23:42:22[Saint]Google Music beta does this, would pulling apart an .apk help?
23:42:51bluebroth3rI don't think so.
23:46:55[Saint]What image *do* you get?
23:47:32bluebroth3rnone.
23:47:49bluebroth3rand stuff like this in logcat:
23:47:50[Saint]Oh, right, sorry. I missread.
23:47:50bluebroth3rI/System.out( 254): resolveUri failed on bad bitmap uri: /sdcard/rockbox/.temp_albumart_261.jpg
23:48:09bluebroth3rbut the same path is passed to the widget
23:49:43[Saint]I think its maybe a delicate beast, this RaaA thing ;) I can remember wondering why the *frick* I couldn't get user selectable backdrops for the widget working.
23:49:55[Saint]Despite sharing most of the original widget code.
23:50:14[Saint]Ummm...backdrops is a bad word.
23:50:49[Saint]I had a "light" and a "dark" widget theme, that for all intents and purposes I thought should have been user selectable at widget creation time.
23:50:52[Saint]...but nope ;)
23:58:38bluebroth3rnow I get a bit more information
23:58:39bluebroth3rW/ImageView( 254): java.io.FileNotFoundException: /sdcard/rockbox/.temp_albumart_261.jpg (Permission denied)
23:58:44bluebroth3rbut ... why?

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