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#rockbox log for 2011-10-18

00:00:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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00:45:09 Part Zagor
00:45:20freddybZagor: I don't see why not. That very low hanging fruit.
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01:00
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01:07:39JdGordonkugel: you broke skin fonts
01:22:06 Join freddyb [0] (~freddybbb@216.8.239.112.etczone.com)
01:25:42JdGordonfs#12337 :/
01:25:43fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12337 3r30773 breaks all skin fonts (bugs, new)
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02:00
02:00:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:33:20 Join chkktri [0] (~chikakita@unaffiliated/chkktri)
02:33:28chkktrihttp://tails.bloodheaven.net/Temp%20folder/20111018_003.jpg
02:33:35chkktriwhat the hell?
02:34:00chkktriis that some kind of finger friendly interface?
02:34:33 Quit MethoS- (Remote host closed the connection)
02:38:56JdGordonchkktri: your pic isnt loading but yeah... new broken feature
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03:00
03:06:28JdGordonchkktri: which target is that? it looks pretty bad
03:15:43 Join [Saint] [0] (65628198@gateway/web/freenode/ip.101.98.129.152)
03:20:00 Join chkktri_ [0] (~chika@83.149.48.110)
03:20:11chkktri_it's cowon d 2
03:20:21chkktri_d2*
03:20:40chkktri_pic is still not loading?
03:26:43JdGordonno, it loaded
03:28:37chkktri_so, is it toggleable?
03:34:57JdGordonthere should be a setting somewhere
03:39:30chkktri_can't find anything v_v
03:42:14[Saint]Gah!
03:42:19[Saint]It went in...didn't it.
03:42:26[Saint]bah, yep :-S
03:43:14chkktri_hm?
03:43:34[Saint]this patch that's apparently broken the lists for you.
03:44:03[Saint]Or, the fonts rather. I scammed through the logs to find the image you're talking of, but I must have missed it.
03:44:34[Saint]you _should_ be able to toggle it in the desplay menu
03:44:43 Join factor [0] (~factor@74.197.205.204)
03:44:43[Saint](from what I remember of the patch)
03:44:51mc2739chkktri_: the setting is under System->Display->Touchscreen Settings->Line Padding in Lists
03:44:55[Saint]*display menu
03:46:57[Saint]chkktri_: Is the line selector using the foreground colour the theme?
03:47:20[Saint]that looks horrible (to me) and I would hope its not a result of this patch.
03:51:47chkktri_oh
03:51:50chkktri_thanks
03:52:05chkktri_no that's not a result of patch
03:52:29[Saint]Hum...nice. :-S
03:52:44[Saint]chkktri_: did turning it off fix the line selector?
03:53:04chkktri_yes
03:53:05chkktri_thanks
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03:53:56*[Saint] wonders how that wasn't noticed during the testing this patch (apparently really didn't) recieve(d)
03:54:06LloreanWhat wasn't noticed?
03:54:10LloreanThat it defaults to "on" or?
03:54:27[Saint]and also why it seems sane for this to default on!
03:54:37chkktri_?
03:54:42[Saint]Llorean: that it totally borks the line selector.
03:54:54LloreanHe said it's *not* a result of the patch
03:55:20LloreanWhat's "borked" other than the line spacing?
03:55:27[Saint]Oh...whoops. I totally missread that.
03:55:37[Saint]nevermind, then.
03:55:41LloreanI don't think it's sane to have it default to widely spaced, but as a usability feature I can definitely see how someone might argue it's sane to default to on.
03:55:44*[Saint] skulks away.
03:56:03*[Saint] returns
03:56:14LloreanSince if you *need* it to be able to interact meaningfully due to cramped screen or whatever, having it on makes it easier to turn off, while having it off makes it harder to turn on.
03:56:25[Saint]Llorean: Yeah...I dont think it should default on for anything other than the fallback.
03:56:39[Saint]its arguable that the theme author accounted for list spacing already.
03:56:53[Saint]well...its not arguable, really. they likely did.
03:56:54JdGordonthe patch completly breaks themeing
03:57:04JdGordonbut.. yeah, not a big deal apparently! :p
03:57:23[Saint]Yeah...I would have been a LOT more vocal if I saw it go in.
03:57:32[Saint]I'm...not amused.
03:57:35LloreanI would say usability trumps themeing, and you can turn it off.
03:57:58[Saint]You can also turn it *on*, and magic to detect the fallback would have been easy to add.
03:58:12LloreanThen add it, and default it to disabled?
03:58:12[Saint]the fallback is the only case where this really matters.
03:58:39[Saint]Hahahaha...good luck, I love the sentiment. I could post all the patches in the world for that.
03:58:49[Saint]I sorely doubt it'd get committed.
03:59:05LloreanThen post one, and complain about it not getting committed after you've posted it, rather than hypothesizing that it wouldn't?
03:59:15[Saint]I raised my views on this (as did others) before commit.
03:59:29[Saint]...it wasn't listened to, at all.
04:00
04:00:02[Saint]Even kugel mentioned that this is really needed for the fallback, but it still seemed "sane" to default on for all.
04:00:20[Saint]Its seven (probably more? ;)) kinds of stoopid IMO
04:00:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:01:40JdGordonyou're wasting your energy
04:01:55[Saint]The fallback is TOTALLY unusable without this, I'll admit that. And its really needed there. But if a user theme, or the default is unusable without this, then its the themes fault.
04:02:03LloreanIn my opinion a feature like that would make the most sense if it were something like "space out lines if they're less than X height" where X is a physical measurement based on DPI rather than a pixel count
04:02:24LloreanIn which case, defaulting to on would make perfect sense.
04:02:25[Saint]I see it useful if a user wants to *increse* the spacing a theme offers, optionally...but it *shouldn't* default on for user themes or the defautl.
04:03:05JdGordonit defaults to "broken" on user themes
04:03:34[Saint]Yeah...dammit. I really wish I noticed the "I'm committing this" mail.
04:03:40[Saint]was there even one?
04:03:57JdGordona big thread
04:04:11JdGordonto which there was plenty of "this isnt the way to do it" replies :/
04:04:21[Saint]Oh, yeah. I know about the thread. But apparently I missed the "this is going in now" mail.
04:05:38[Saint]Bwahahahah....240x320 theme (of mine, for RaaA) gets 4 main menu items with this patch ;)
04:05:56[Saint]they used to all fit.
04:06:30*[Saint] will add the config magic to turn this off in his themes.
04:06:54LloreanLooking back at the thread, I don't see particularly much opposition. At least as many for as against.
04:07:34[Saint]I'm totally for the patch. Just not the default.
04:07:48[Saint]I've always been for it, I just think its insane that it defaults on.
04:08:20[Saint]it defaults on to catch the fallback theme, but, magic to detect a user theme didn't load could easily have been added.
04:08:27JdGordonnoone (including myself) is againt the feature. just the implemnetation was very rong on about 15 different levels
04:08:45LloreanAh, you've taken me off ignore?
04:09:10JdGordonsurprise!
04:09:32LloreanAnyway, nobody really talked much about the implementation other than a discussion over the difference between skinned and unskinned lists, and one group saying "all lists should be skinned lists" and another saying "but until they are, this will fix issues"
04:09:56LloreanAnd as Torne mentioned, skins aren't DPI aware yet.
04:10:27LloreanSo it seems like there's a path forward to removing this if someone really feels like it needs to be removed.
04:10:42[Saint]no one feels it needs to be removed.
04:10:46[Saint]Just a sane default.
04:11:06[Saint]Or rather, the appropriate magic to detect when its needed.
04:11:42[Saint]which, just to be an ass, I think I'll add...if even *I* can do it, then something is *seriously* wrong with the way it was implemented ;)
04:12:22[Saint]I'm about 99% sure the fallback case could be detected and this set to on in that case.
04:12:44[Saint]ie. "when its needed"
04:12:54JdGordonif it was done using the skin engine *like ti should have been* then yes
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04:14:35Llorean[Saint]: It's also needed when loading 'bad' themes. While it's the fault of the theme author, it is reasonable to want to be able to just switch to a better theme.
04:14:55LloreanI thought that's what the DPI-awareness of it was supposed to deal with. The "automatic" mode.
04:15:13LloreanThough it seems that there should be a target size for the automatic mode, which it appears there isn't.
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04:20:33*[Saint] brain dumps
04:21:12[Saint]"things that are needed before the theme I'm working on can be totally usable:"
04:21:41[Saint]1: touch region "none" to behave as other regions do (long/short press)
04:22:08[Saint]2: a new .lang string "Screen Locked"
04:22:35[Saint]3: ...probably something I'm forgetting.
04:22:38JdGordon3. a new skin maintainer
04:22:45[Saint];D
04:23:04JdGordonskin engine maintainer even
04:23:32[Saint]Yeah, I was just about to say...I suppose *I* fal into the first category there.
04:23:37[Saint]*fall
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04:45:58[Saint]I still find it...um, I dunno....amusing, shocking(?) even that two people heavily invested in the Rockbox UI had (apparently) absoluely no say in this line height commit.
04:46:26[Saint]Perhaps I should give up being shocked about such things...its likely not, but sometimes it does feel like a personal agenda.
04:48:46LloreanI thought you both said your piece? Or are you suggesting that you should have veto power over any change that affects the UI?
04:49:53[Saint]No, not at all. But I do feel like what I said (I won't talk for Jd) was completely ignored.
04:50:25LloreanWhat's the difference between "ignored" and "heard, but deemed not a reason not to go forward"?
04:50:57[Saint]when it obviously *is* a reason not to go forward ;)
04:51:05LloreanThat's subjective, though.
04:51:14[Saint]I think not, but, meh.
04:51:27LloreanNotice you said "I think". That's more or less the definition of subjective.
04:52:37JdGordon[Saint]: just ignore it...
04:53:11JdGordonthats not to say you arnt correct, just its not worth the effort complaining
04:53:16Llorean[Saint]: Basically, you're saying because your opinion wasn't followed, you weren't listened to. Or at least that's what I'm hearing.
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04:59:05[Saint]Llorean: (last thing I'll say (at least for now) on it) I feel like the "do it right" attitude was thrown out the window.
04:59:51Llorean[Saint]: It's a solution that works, can be turned off, doesn't require anything but the use of a menu item to use. It has a bug that needs fixing, but it's a lot closer to "good enough" than several other things that have been contentious
05:00
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05:01:16JdGordonsomeone may as well revert the skin list commit... it is practically dead anyway
05:01:49LloreanProbably a good idea if there won't be someone finishing it. I imagine we'd get some RAM back?
05:02:05JdGordon3/th of fuck all
05:02:12JdGordon3/5th*
05:02:27LloreanWell if there's no real significant cost for keeping it around, then why bother?
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06:00:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:21:16*GodEater_ is impressed with this morning's "Ladies and Gentlemen" email.
08:21:26GodEater_I had no idea anyone was working on the Hifiman!
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09:39:45kugelGodEater_: there was a tracker task about it open for a bit
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10:00
10:00:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:07:17kugel[Saint]: you were not ignored. it was mainly you that made me adding the config in the first place
10:18:38[Saint]Right, I'm still very much in belief that the default for user skins and the default skin should be off, though. That's all I object to. I'll be having a look this evening at adding magic to detect the failsafe theme and default to on in this case only.
10:19:13[Saint]I've always liked the idea of the patch, I think its great. The only thing that bugs me is that it defaults on.
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10:26:49kugel[Saint]: I don't know what's wrong. you can toggle it off in all your themes
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10:27:53kugelI don't think I said "it defaults to on specifically for the fallback theme". I rather said I want it to Just Work with any theme, which includes the fallback one
10:28:54[Saint]Its existing themes that it will suddenly "break" (as happened this afternoon, my time, when a D2 user came in and wanted to know what was wrong with his theme all of a sudden) that bothers me.
10:30:03[Saint]The value also needs to be added to the list of accepted config values for the themesite, otherwise theme authors won't actually be able to turn this off with a theme.
10:30:14kugelthat happens. we tend to break themes once in a while, that's why we offer a way to update them; we never cried lout because of that, and I don't see a need to do this now
10:30:59JdGordonerr... you completly broke everything....
10:31:01JdGordonwith no fix
10:31:44kugel[Saint]: See, what you see as breakage was one of my goals
10:32:17Zagorkugel: no, your focus was on the built-in theme. not to break all existing themes.
10:32:22[Saint]To make it so that theme authors can't actually guarantee the theme will look as they intend it to?
10:33:29Zagorbreaking themes is painful and should be avoided if possible. are you saying enabling auto on for built-in only is impossible?
10:34:05LloreanIf auto is enabled for built-in only by default, it should also not be something that can be changed on the theme-site.
10:34:16kugelI wonder when I said I was focusing on the built-in one only
10:34:54kugelZagor: that would be the first time we do this, and it would most certainly require a hardcoded hack somewhere in the code
10:35:10Zagorthe fallback theme *is* hardcoded
10:35:21LloreanIf it's to be considered a part of themes (in terms of updating the theme site to allow it), then on-by-default makes sense since themes can override it going forward.
10:35:24kugelwe broke existing themes numerous times without uproar, and this doesn't even affect released targets
10:35:45kugele.g. the touchregion renaming
10:36:12Lloreankugel: How does auto work? if the line height is already large due to a large font does it not add spacing?
10:36:22ZagorI don't like this cavalier attitude to our contributors
10:36:47kugelLlorean: it's a min height based on the dpi. if the font is larger it doesnt pad
10:37:07LloreanSo effectively, it's a minimum line spacing. Themes that are already large shouldn't be affected (and if they are, it's a bug)
10:37:21LloreanThat sounds reasonable for a "defaults to on" since it prevents themes with tiny lines from being hard to disable.
10:38:08ZagorI haven't tried the patch yet. [Saint], what broke exactly?
10:38:18Zagors/patch/change/.
10:38:24LloreanZagor: There's a bug posted on the tracker about skin fonts.
10:38:44kugelZagor: there's also the case a theme doesn't load correctly, like if the font wasnt found (it may be in the not installed font package)
10:38:48LloreanZagor: The D2 user on the other hand just had lines spaced out more than they were before (the D2 isn't really a finger target, coming with a stylus, so some themes have quite small lines) and it was resolved by simply turning the feature off
10:39:10LloreanI would argue that this feature might either default to off on Stylus targets, or have a smaller minimum spacing.
10:39:16kugelthinking about it, it's not easily possible to detect teh built-in theme, since themes are still only ordinary .cfg files
10:39:31[Saint]Zagor: Besides the bug posted on the tracker, I also think the "default on for user themes" thing to be "broken".
10:39:46kugelZagor: see tonights logs. someone came and was surprised by the new line height
10:39:49*JdGordon is currently on the phone but has stuff to but in with...
10:40:17Llorean[Saint]: Assuming the minimum is actually well chosen, it shouldn't *affect* most usable themes.
10:40:34kugelthat user must be using the grid mode, I don't think he could use the lists with the font that the screenshot had
10:41:26[Saint]From the brief look I had this afternoon. I certainly think its possible to detect the failsafe case and only activate "auto" then.
10:41:59LloreanI don't think the failsafe is the only time you'd want expanded line spacing.
10:42:01[Saint]I'm not /too/ familiar with the skin engine and the particulars with the failsafe theme, though.
10:42:11[Saint]Llorean: No, certainly not.
10:42:11LloreanAs kugel mentioned, a missing font is another, for example.
10:42:17JdGordonkugel: that user wasnt using skin lists at all
10:42:22LloreanSince it's *minimum* spacing, it seems the argument should be about a sane minimum
10:42:24[Saint]Its the only time its *needed* though.
10:42:32JdGordonand the patch complelty broke *all* skin fonts, *everywhere*
10:42:41[Saint]Llorean: Which the theme should take care of.
10:42:50[Saint]If its not usuable, its the fault of them theme.
10:42:53kugelJdGordon: yes. that's an unintentional bug
10:43:15Llorean[Saint]: And there's no reason for the OS not to step in in those situations, if the theme's bad, allowing the user to override if they want to use a bad theme
10:43:19kugelI can't work on a fix at work
10:43:23JdGordonwhich should have been tested for really.. but whatever
10:43:26Llorean[Saint]: Meanwhile, if the minimum is "sane" the patch shouldn't actually affect good themes at all.
10:44:13kugelJdGordon: you know yourself how testing at rockbox works. you don't get it even if you ask for it
10:44:47JdGordonsure, but using a skin font shold have been an obvious test case
10:44:57Zagorkugel: this should only be enabled on touch targets, right?
10:44:59JdGordonim also guilyty of such omision so no big deal
10:45:02[Saint]I just think, preferably. It should default on (to "auto") in the failsafe case, and off for user theme, gut give the option for the user to expand the padding if they want to as opposed to forcing it on.
10:45:06kugelZagor: yes
10:45:25[Saint]*but give
10:45:39Llorean[Saint]: It should only expand if line size is below a certain amount. Which means if that amount is sane, it should only expand for non-sane themes. That seems extremely reasonable.
10:45:51LloreanIt in itself is a sort of failsafe.
10:45:56*JdGordon sings "the implementation is just broken and should never have been commited" the correct patch would have been much smaller and more useful for everyone
10:46:03Zagormissing font is not hard to detect. the code chooses the fallback font, and could enable auto height there.
10:46:22[Saint]Zagor: Good point.
10:46:32LloreanZagor: Bad font choices because the theme's for another device with the same screen size/shape though, is different and hard to correct for once the theme is loaded.
10:46:48JdGordoncan i point out that if the implementation I wanted was used (i.e hardcoding the sbs) then the fallback is immediatly handled
10:46:55JdGordonas is missing fonts
10:47:02LloreanZagor: You may discover that the 320x200 theme is unusable realistically with a touchscreen after loading. A minimum line height to ensure that you could still interact wouldn't hurt in those cases.
10:47:41ZagorLlorean: true. I suppose a conservative minimum size would fix most breakages.
10:48:12LloreanZagor: That's how I feel. Since it's a minimum, and not just an "add X amount to all lines" if the value is picked well, it shouldn't affect themes that are usable on the device, and if the user disagrees with our definition of usable it's a setting and can be disabled.
10:48:22JdGordonalso, what happened to yesterday being the feature freeze?
10:48:36kugelwell, the auto setting is rather conservative already (in my opinion). I actually reduced the height due to [Saint]'s complained
10:48:41kugelcomplaint*
10:48:46ZagorJdGordon: alexp wasn't around so nobody took it on himself to do it :)
10:48:58*Llorean can't comment on whether or not the line height is sane.
10:49:05LloreanTo be honest, it really didn't look sane at all on the D2 screenshot.
10:49:29kugellogbot: you have a d2 don't you?
10:49:33kugelLlorean: ^
10:49:35LloreanYeah
10:49:57LloreanBut I prefer grid mode, and used the stylus when not in it anyway. So for fingers it may be more reasonable.
10:50:21kugelin my memory the screen is tiny, and that screenshot seems about right (to enable the thumb to be used)
10:50:28kugelan owner might think diffferently
10:50:28LloreanThe screen is pretty tiny
10:50:33Zagorwhere is this d2 screenshot? I only see JdGordon's e200 bug report.
10:50:53Lloreanhttp://tails.bloodheaven.net/Temp%20folder/20111018_003.jpg
10:50:59 Quit [Saint] (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
10:51:07kugelZagor: JdGordon's report is a real bug, not intended.
10:51:13Zagorok
10:51:23LloreanFor reference, the entire height of the D2 screen is about two thumb widths for me
10:51:51LloreanSo for finger use, that is actually probably close to right, though I think I personally would narrow it a little bit more. But I also have skinny fingers.
10:51:52kugelsaint's complaint is different
10:52:08JdGordonsaints complaint is mostly missing the point
10:52:16*Llorean just digged up his D2 to see how big it really is rather than depending on memory
10:53:20kugelthat screenshot should be about unusable, however I suspect grid mode is on
10:53:29kugelunusable without list spacing*
10:53:55JdGordonwhat makes you say that?
10:54:17JdGordonremember grid mode is off by default
10:54:17Lloreankugel: He may use the stylus. It came with one.
10:54:23kugelJdGordon: not on the d2
10:54:37 Quit Rob2222 (Quit: Rob2222)
10:54:39kugelJdGordon: thanks to you actually :P
10:54:54LloreanBut it'd certainly be nearly unusable without a stylus. With a font size like that 2 lines would fit under the tip of my pinky
10:54:59kugelLlorean: right. I forgot about the stylus
10:56:09JdGordonI sitll wonder why you assume he has grid mode on.. he didnt say anything about it?
10:56:56kugelthe font looks too small to be used with the thumb to me
10:56:59LloreanJdGordon: Forgot about the stylus, and it really would be very nearly unusably small with a finger with that font. So he's just guessing, but a not-to-unreasonable guess ignoring the stylus
10:58:42JdGordonwhy on earth is the title padded also?
10:59:14LloreanThat seems unusual to me too.
10:59:32LloreanI haven't used a touchscreen device in a while. That doesn't do anything like "go up/back a level" or anything, does it?
10:59:34kugelit can be clicked too
11:00
11:00:09kugelLlorean: it does "go to the main menu"#
11:00:18LloreanAh, okay
11:00:47kugelit looked very strange without too
11:01:23JdGordonyou said this wasnt about looks thugh!
11:01:56LloreanHe said "too."
11:07:47kugelZagor: your complaint was based on JdGordon's bug report, right?
11:08:42Zagorno, rather on saints
11:09:35JdGordoncan we please have a civil discussion about reverting it and doing it correctly using the skin engine and fixing the skin lists where it is currently missing bits?
11:10:07JdGordonthis implementation is totally useless for everyone who wants to skin the list *at all*
11:10:32kugelI was opening the discussion on the ml pre-commit to not discuss reverting post-commit
11:10:59JdGordonand i was very strongly against the commit to begin with...
11:11:09JdGordonnever against the feature, always against the implementation
11:11:12kugelbut you also said "I'm out"
11:11:22JdGordonso revert skin lists
11:11:34JdGordonnoone else seems to care at all about rockbox themeing anymore
11:11:34LloreanJdGordon: Isn't your usual stance "don't object to the implementation unless you're willing to write it the way you think is right"?
11:11:54LloreanAre you offering to implement it the way you think is the right way, then?
11:12:15JdGordonhttp://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2011-10/0047.shtml
11:12:19ZagorI think we should keep it and let kugel fix it. if it's not fixed by next monday, we'll revert it for the release
11:12:40LloreanZagor: The question though is what needs fixed.
11:12:59LloreanZagor: Obviously the bug with fonts needs fixed, but JdGordon's complaint is beyond that scope.
11:13:06kugelJdGordon: FS #12330 is also implemented in the classic lists, not in the skinned lists
11:13:07fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12330 3Add a nice UI to configure database search directories (patches, new)
11:13:16kugelwhy are you complaining about me doing so?
11:13:22JdGordonkugel: uh show me where that is ready for commit?
11:13:48JdGordonthat patch also has nothing to do with the indenting implementation
11:13:50LloreanJdGordon: Does your patch do the exact same thing (minimum line height, based on screen DPI)?
11:14:11kugelJdGordon: ah so it isnt? I was confused because you already put it on FS (which should mean: look at this and commit please)
11:14:32Lloreankugel: No, flyspray means "this patch is moving toward being ready for commit"
11:14:42Zagorkugel: it usually means "look at this and comment, please"
11:14:53LloreanIt doesn't indicate readiness, just intent.
11:15:01kugelokay
11:15:03JdGordonLlorean: why are you being obtuse as always? look at the response i got to that message...
11:15:34LloreanJdGordon: I just asked a yes/no question. Could you perhaps answer it without being insulting, rather than demanding I read the whole thread looking for things I skimmed over or missed?
11:15:56LloreanI thought we were trying to be civil here.
11:16:14JdGordonread the thread, then come back
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11:16:48LloreanJdGordon: The next post says that your patch *doesn't work*
11:16:49JdGordon100% of the list and lcd and viewport change could have been done in a the skin engine
11:16:57LloreanSo am I to take it then, that you haven't implemented it "the right way" yet?
11:17:11ZagorJdGordon: yes but we don't use the skinned list in fallback theme so that wouldn't help
11:17:22kugelwe figured that the skin engine isn't ready yet. for a) bugs and b) other limitations
11:17:33Zagorit's a longer process to merge the lists and Do It Right
11:17:48JdGordonZagor: my proof of concept patch does use the skin engine for the fallback
11:17:52JdGordonthat was the whole point
11:17:52LloreanMeanwhile, other than the bug the existing patch "does what it's supposed to do"
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11:18:34JdGordonso instead of fixing bugs which need to be fixed anyway, he's added cruft to a bunch of code which didnt need it
11:19:17LloreanIsn't it cruft that would be removed anyway once all lists are skinned?
11:19:40JdGordonit will have to be now wont it...
11:21:34JdGordonkugel: selective blindeness much? "this also uses a half done patch to make lists handle indenting, not done for the skin list but if this is actually wanted that can be easily added"
11:21:42LloreanIs there some reason other than "its' not the best way to do it" that you're objecting to this?
11:21:53LloreanI'm just trying to get all the problems with it out in the air.
11:22:15JdGordonbecause with me gone the skin engine is dead pretty much... who is going to finish skin lists?
11:22:34kugelJdGordon: let's be honest, you aren't gone
11:22:43JdGordonespecially when the biggest issue is no kinetic scrolling, which kugel implemented and should know what needs fixing
11:22:53kugelwhich is by all means good
11:23:04JdGordonfind someone to take over skinning and i *am*
11:23:11JdGordoni have a very hard time letting go of it
11:24:00JdGordonim really more annoyed that my word means so little seen as it is deeply fiddling with code i've been the only one maiting for the last ages... if someone thinks that is arrogant of me then, well... ok
11:24:17JdGordonthere is a cleaner way to do this, but that was ignored
11:24:35JdGordons/ignored/shot down as an insult/
11:25:05JdGordonI honestly dont think this feature will be done in skin engine unless I do it..
11:25:07kugelnobody disagreed that it should be done in the skin engine
11:25:30wodzkugel: huh?
11:25:30JdGordonso we like code duplication now?
11:26:53kugelno, we happily remove the old code once the replacement is ready
11:27:00kugelit's not, as of now, though
11:27:09LloreanI think it's reasonable, as this is a usability feature, that until the skin engine is ready for it there be an alternative implementation of it. Especially if it's likely the skin engine is about to get less maintained.
11:27:17JdGordonwhat was the rush?
11:27:28LloreanUsability stands in the way of releases. How it looks doesn't.
11:27:48JdGordonerr... no targets this affects are in the stable category
11:28:48LloreanYes, and one issues that could be debated about promoting them is that our UI is at times a bit crap on touch.
11:28:57kugelthere was no rush. it was discussed for almost a week, then calmed down for another (almost) week
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11:30:13wodzand commited even if the feature was debatable
11:30:46LloreanWhy is that remarkable? It happens pretty frequently that not everyone is for a feature.
11:31:16kugelactually, the implementation was/is debatable, not the feature
11:31:28Zagoras long as this is corrected to not negatively affect stable targets, I'm fine with having it in as a work-in-progress
11:31:51ZagorI don't think every commit has to be 100% correct first shot. we work iteratively.
11:31:56LloreanZagor: IIUC it's already not supposed to affect stable targets, since none are touch, so where it does is already a bug
11:32:14JdGordonyet if I commited my version of the main menu rewrking patch the shitstorm would have been huge...
11:32:27Zagorthe important thing in my view is that the dev is active and fixes issues that are found. and I see no reason to doubt kugels willingness to do this.
11:32:36wodzwe often block quick fixes and push 'do it right' solution - why this time this is different?
11:32:42ZagorJdGordon: yes, that would most certainly affect stable targets
11:33:02JdGordonZagor: sure, but this topic had a clearly better (even kugel admited that skin lists were the way to go) solution which was ignored in favour of the current version
11:33:14LloreanJdGordon: That also is disagreement on a feature, rather than an implementation.
11:33:21Zagorwodz: because those times I have not voiced my opinion? I have always been on the "slack" end of the requirement scale.
11:33:35LloreanNothing blocks the better solution here, whereas the menu reorganization would've contradicted directly alternatives.
11:33:49ZagorJdGordon: it only had a better concept, not a better implementation.
11:33:58Zagoronce we have the better implementation, that's what we should commit
11:34:40kugelthat's how I see it too
11:34:48Lloreanwodz: Sometimes bad implementations get removed (ones where user visible parts of it are done contrary to ways its decided users should interact with the software, for example)
11:34:53LloreanThis one isn't even a user visible difference, really
11:34:55JdGordonyou have no intention of fixing the implementation thouhg
11:35:33JdGordonkugel: ^
11:35:57ZagorJdGordon: I personally have a very definite intention of seeing our dual lists merged into one
11:35:58LloreanIt's a solution that works, and not only that, would probably be considered "okay" if skinnable lists weren't another feature, and when the skinnable list feature is complete and able to be adapted to this, will be removed, right?
11:36:26JdGordonZagor: all the more reason to not let anyone add features to one and not the other
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11:37:14JdGordonThat said, untill you said native lists were "deprecated" i never really thought about it
11:37:19ZagorI disagree. I can't (and won't) declare "there shall be no modifications before list merge"
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11:38:33ZagorI wouldn't say native or skinned lists are deprecated. I just think we should have one list that handles all cases.
11:38:55JdGordoni think you used a softer phrase, someone used the d word in the mailing list :)
11:40:04kugelI used deprecated
11:41:26JdGordoncan anyone explain why the lcd_puts functions draw the selection bar also?
11:42:07wodzother topic - what about -Os on ARMs?
11:42:24kugelplease no :)
11:42:28Zagorwodz: absolutely
11:42:32Zagorbut not before release
11:42:43wodzfair
11:43:20JdGordonZagor: how are you going with the lcd api fiddling? I think alot of my issue is more that the lcd driver does the line height instead of the list code becasue it is all line instead of pixel based
11:43:22kugelwhy would you want Os? I expect it to slow things down. Most isn't performance sensitive, but some places are
11:43:51Zagorkugel: Os is actually (far) more optimized that -O
11:44:12kugelLinux even removed the kconfig option (it defaulted to off before) because Os has mostly bad effects
11:44:20Zagorplus 20-40 KB smaller on most targets
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11:44:32kugelZagor: that's an argument for O2 in my book :p
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11:44:45wodzin my tests Os was faster always
11:44:54ZagorO2 is bigger and slower than Os
11:45:05kugelwhy should O2 be slower?
11:45:19Zagorbecause it doesn't inline
11:45:29kugelit's supposed to be faster, and considering what the web says about it it is
11:45:37kugel(like gcc mailing lists)
11:45:55kugelO2 does inline, even more aggressively that Os
11:46:10wodzkugel: I guess it's faster on x86
11:46:32kugelOs stops inling once it has a bad effect on the size (i.e. the second call)
11:46:33Zagorkugel: compare the output of "arm-elf-eabi-gcc -c -Q -Os −−help=optimizers" and "arm-elf-eabi-gcc -c -Q -O2 −−help=optimizers"
11:47:01wodzmost work on arms is done with -Os and thats what majority use
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11:47:51kugeldon't the codec guys always test these things?
11:47:58Zagorthere's 27 different optimization algorithms enabled on Os that are disabled on O2
11:48:19Zagorcodecs have their own O flags. this only concerns core.
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11:48:38wodzbtw. test of thumb performance shows we are marginally affected by optimization level used since most critical parts are compiled with own set of flags and are asm optimized
11:48:56kugelZagor: well, it's a fact that O2 is supposed to (by the authors) than Os. I don't know what those 27 algorithms do
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11:49:21kugelwodz: right, that's true
11:49:36Zagorwodz: exactly. and since we always scream about every dozen bytes wasted binsize, reclaiming 20-40 KB should be a no-brainer.
11:49:50wodzZagor: exactly
11:49:57kugelwodz: did you check O2?
11:50:17wodzkugel: yes but quite long ago
11:50:22Zagorkugel: somehow I believe the output of the compiler more than man pages and lists posts
11:50:36Zagornot that it couldn't be wrong, of course
11:50:51wodzit wasn't substantially faster than Os but considerably bigger
11:51:05kugelit could also mean it applies 27 size optimizations, some of which could have a negative impact on speed
11:51:24Zagorkugel: again, this is core.
11:51:37Zagorit's mostly idling anyway
11:52:24kugelright. the most sensitive parts are ASM'd
11:52:31wodzand not to mention it's hard to tell what is the impact of reduced mem hit
12:00
12:00:36Zagor39616 bytes gain on sansac200
12:00:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:26:26wodzmortalis: what is relation between HM-601/HM-602/HM-802 in terms of hardware?
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12:35:49mortaliswodz: 602 can work as usb dac, I think it's hardware controled. 801 has another buttons, bigger battery capacity, DAC is PCM1704, also can work as usb DAC.
12:37:24wodz1) what about the SoC - do they all use rk27xx? 2) Is the dac feature somehow controlled from the firmware (aka some gpio to activate)? 3) I guess this units do not have FM right?
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12:45:08mortaliswodz: 1) yes, they all use rk2706b and the same lcd 2) As I sayed I guess it hardware controled, but I don't know it exactly. GPIO may be used to determine when usb inserted in DAC slot. 3) Yes. You are right
12:46:30mortalis*said
12:47:38wodzmortalis: ok. I think you should post to ML about volume controll - maybe someone will have bright idea how to deal with this.
12:48:00wodzmortalis: are you going to work on missing lowlevel stuff?
12:49:41mortaliswodz: Yes, but I don't have much time to do it, so progress will be slow.
12:50:34wodzI don't have much free time either
12:51:01wodzmortalis: In this case it would be nice to not overlap the work
12:51:47mortalisagree
12:52:06wodzwhat is your priority?
12:53:44mortalisI think it would be nice to make work nand or usb.
12:54:08wodzmortalis: I have started work on both
12:54:36wodzusb seems to be easier but quite tricky due to the design of usb core
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12:54:43Siliciumhi there
12:54:49wodznand is a lot of dissasembly work
12:54:58Siliciumi have a short question about the unsupported cowon D2+
12:55:20Silicium2 years ago i installed RB successfully on that device but now it wont work. no idea why
12:55:42mortaliswodz: how about dual boot?
12:55:52wodzmortalis: I failed so far.
12:56:13Siliciumi installed a new bootloader, r30119M-110703 and the nightly build (precompiled)
12:56:39Siliciumbut the device just hangs in the bootloader, there is only the bootloader screen
12:56:41wodzfor unknown reason loading original s2 bootloader dumped from flash to the dram do nothing.
12:57:24Siliciumwhen i insert a mmc card (which is not supported) it says blabla ata error file not found, that means the bootloader works and is trying to read files from the local FS
12:57:33wodzmortalis: I started dissasembling s2 bootloader - I guess it sets some magic flag somewhere but this will take a while for sure
12:58:01Siliciumso, is it possible to attach a console to the bootloader (usb) for checking why rockbox wont boot?
12:58:20wodzSilicium: no AFAIK
12:58:55Siliciumalso in the past days *2 years ago) i had a directory on the internal flash which was called "multiboot" and contained a binary
12:59:03Siliciumthats not needed, right?
12:59:08Siliciumor not longer needed
12:59:22wodzmortalis: maybe you could look at USB - most of my work is in svn
12:59:29Siliciumi just have a .rockbox directory
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13:01:44Siliciumhmm, no idea?
13:02:22Siliciumis there no generic problem which prevent from booting the rockbox kernel?
13:02:35mortaliswodz: ok, I can work on USB
13:03:28wodzSilicium: we have a few issues in current trunk but binary should boot AFAIK
13:04:09wodzmortalis: ok I'll dig in nand/ftl
13:04:48wodzmortalis: but if you find out how to use lcdif properly I'll buy you a beer or two :-)
13:05:21Siliciumhmm ok
13:05:25Siliciumthen i will compile byself
13:05:25Siliciumthx
13:05:57Siliciumbut actually, there is no output, if there are problems, it should come to an error at booting, right?
13:07:03mortaliswodz: btw, looks like we always use 44.1kHz sample rate. I added print pcm_fsel to debug info, and tried play some files with different sample rate. pcm_fsel is always 2 which means 44.1kHz
13:07:36wodzSilicium: if you can compile yourself - add a bunch of printfs to see where it hangs
13:08:30Siliciumyep, printf will printed on the screen from pointing to the binary?
13:08:38wodzmortalis: I am not pcm subsystem expert - this is question to JhMikeS most probably
13:09:00wodzSilicium: I don't understand
13:09:38Siliciumfrom which bootstep is printf able to print to the device screen?
13:09:54wodzafter lcd and fonts init
13:10:08wodzso pretty early
13:10:08Siliciumhaha rly but is that very early?
13:10:10Siliciumok
13:10:20Siliciumthx
13:11:27wodzmortalis: I recall our DSP subsystem is 44.1kHz centric - maybe thats the reason
13:12:47Siliciumand finally: could it be that r3019M-110703 bootloader isnt compatible with the actual rockbox os?
13:12:52Siliciumkernel
13:12:57wodzunlikely
13:13:02Siliciumok
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13:49:53ZagorJdGordon: my api fiddling is going well-ish. I'm a bit bothered by not being able to commit stuff in reasonable portions. maybe I should make a branch.
13:51:13pixelmaSilicium: do you have the .rockbox folder on an SD card or on the internal memory? I *believe* the D2s need the former but I'm not sure
13:51:21JdGordonZagor: call it a bug fix :)
13:52:02Zagorwell it is, in some twisted sense. :)
13:52:55Siliciumpixelma: internal memory
13:53:14Siliciumexternal will just work with SD and internal worked fine but RO
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14:02:16pixelmawell, what I seem to remember is that the Rockbox bootloader expects the firmware to be on the SD (because Rockbox is unable to write to the internal memory and needs to for some things, e.g. resume position)
14:02:26pixelmain the D2 case
14:03:12kugelZagor: branch sounds like a good idea
14:04:29Siliciumpixelma: hmm, but when no sd card is inserted, it searchs on the local device
14:04:46Siliciumis this defined in the bootloader?
14:05:05Siliciumso i will have a look into
14:15:18Siliciumallright, final question: where is the mktccboot binary? its not longer in the SDK
14:16:39Siliciumah
14:16:40Silicium:D
14:19:23Siliciumyay, debug output works :)
14:19:56Siliciumits hanging at mount
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14:55:36CIA-14New commit by 03zagor (r30781): New branch for LCD work.
15:00
15:13:23wodzshouldn't FS #12186 be closed?
15:13:23fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12186 3GSoC/Buflib: Put extended buflib into core (patches, new)
15:13:48kugelyes, probably
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15:19:21*JdGordon has the cabbie skin buffer usage down to 8kb :p
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15:19:53CIA-14New commit by 03zagor (r30782): Dynamic screen size (based on FS #11615), first commit. #ifdef:ed to not affect static targets at all.
15:19:55TorneJdGordon: neat.. how?
15:20:10JdGordonmoving the major user onto buflib
15:20:24JdGordonI have disabled the move callback to start with so obviously not ready
15:20:40JdGordonand err... wondering why only one alloc is being done
15:23:21JdGordonbuflib_alloc_size -= size; <- always a problem forgetting that line
15:23:37*JdGordon wonders just how many different malloc type implementations we have in rockbox
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15:23:48Tornewell technically zero
15:23:53JdGordonor custom buffer alloc systems
15:24:00TorneOkay, not zero really
15:24:09Tornea couple, but all in pluginlib
15:24:12Torneor plugins
15:24:36JdGordoni mean, things that carve up a buffer manually
15:24:51Torneare there really many?
15:25:00Tornemost things do it in very special-purpose ways that are not obviously generalisable
15:25:09Torneand os comparing them to malloc is not really fair
15:26:32*Zagor tries to add branch to the commit bot text
15:29:02kugelZagor: hmm, many #ifdef :(
15:29:09Zagorof course
15:29:24kugelI hope it's not going to be as painful as the charcell/bitmap separation
15:30:22JdGordonZagor: is there any reason to not use the same system on all targets?
15:30:41JdGordonhave the frambuffer as a pointer instead of the static array
15:30:46JdGordonor are the ifdefs elsewhere?
15:30:56Zagorit adds runtime penalty
15:30:57*JdGordon should probaly look
15:31:25Zagorthe frame buffer is the least of our problems :-)
15:32:35kugel#ifdefs like in settings_list.c aren't needed IMO (you can simply #define DEFAULT_LCD_WIDTH LCD_WIDTH)
15:34:13kugelI agree that runtime paneltry should be avoided if possible. I just hope it's not going to be a PITA for devs/contributors
15:41:34*JdGordon has no freeking clue how to handle the buflib moveing...
15:42:30JdGordonthe move callback happens *after* the data is moved right?
15:42:36kugelno
15:42:51JdGordonah
15:42:52JdGordonwoops
15:42:57JdGordonthat makes sense :)
15:43:04*JdGordon is probably too tired to do this now
15:43:08Siliciumhmm, what could be the problem, if the RB bootloader can't mount the internal storage? i cleared from the D2 firmware but it still hanging at "mount" i also added some printfs around the main-pp.c's mount-all but they wont be displayed :(
15:43:28kugelSilicium: main-pp.c is the wrong file
15:43:39Siliciumah :D
15:43:43Siliciumwhich is the right one?
15:43:54kugelfind out in SOURCES
15:44:52Siliciumaah
15:44:53Siliciumtelechips
15:44:54Siliciumdamn :)
15:45:16Siliciumthx
15:46:20Zagorkugel: I know. but that means changing code for static target. I'm wasting a few #ifdefs at this point to explicitly not change anything for static targets.
15:46:33pixelmaZagor: I remember you trying to add branch to the cia-bot text before without success (things may have changed since though) ;)
15:47:04Zagorpixelma: we'll see next commit :-)
15:49:59Siliciumstill no output
15:50:19Siliciumis D2N_P.bin the right file to patch>
15:50:21Silicium?
15:51:15kugelSilicium: I doubt anyone online currently is familiar with the D2 port
15:51:27Siliciumthx
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16:04:49Siliciumallright, it crashs while storage_init()
16:04:53Siliciumyay :)
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16:05:15Siliciumoh, no
16:05:28Siliciumwhile disk_mount_all
16:14:00CIA-14New commit by 03zagor (r30783): Enable dynamic size on Android.
16:15:17JdGordon00:47 <Zagor> pixelma: we'll see next commit :-) <- guess not :)
16:15:28Zagornope :)
16:19:47Zagoris anyone friends with SDL? where do I set the window resizable?
16:20:05kugelSDL_VideoInit or so
16:20:36kugelI'm actually not sure if SDL windows can be resiizable
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16:21:49Zagorlooks like it can: http://www.libsdl.org/docs/html/sdlresizeevent.html
16:22:27Zagorflags |= SDL_VIDEORESIZE
16:23:38kugelSDL_SetVideoMode() perhaps
16:24:36kugelah yes, it says it on that page
16:24:40kugelthat call is in system-sdl.c
16:24:50Zagoryeah, done already.
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17:08:18Siliciumallright, the boot process is hanging at fat_mount(), after there are no partitions found, the bootloader tries to mount the blockdevice without partition and then they dont longer response.
17:08:29Siliciumstill at my cowon d2+
17:08:58Siliciummakes it sense when i reformat the internal storage with vfat?
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17:18:55pixelmahave you tried with an SD card? Might be worth it before altering the code
17:19:13pixelmaor other measures
17:19:38Siliciumi have no SD Card, just SDHC
17:19:43Siliciumand sdhc wont work
17:21:23pixelmaI thought it should
17:21:27pixelmare. SDHC
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17:44:20Topic"Frozen in preperation for 3.10 | 3.9.1 released! | Please read before speaking: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IrcGuidelines | Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community | This channel is logged at http://www.rockbox.org/irc" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
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19:02:26CIA-14New commit by 03fredwbauer (r30784): In search(): eliminate an unnecessary test.
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19:04:32CIA-14r30784 build result: All green
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19:53:34amiconnZagor: Just mu 2 cents: While -Os might be useful for core in general, I'd rather not enable it just now
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19:53:56Zagor"just now" as in before release?
19:53:57amiconnOptimising something while it isn't stable is probably a bad idea..
19:54:12amiconn"just now" as in before getting the core stable again
19:54:40Zagorright, I'm in no hurry.
19:54:51amiconnThe straightened paper clip is still an important accessory, unfortunately :(
19:55:40amiconnI wonder what the core is doing here, btw. Not only does it not store resume position at shutdown, but it also doesn't so while rebuffering (i.e. in the storage callback)
19:55:46Zagordo we have a bug report for that?
19:55:59*amiconn currently has to do resume-from-brain
19:56:10amiconnNot sure, will check
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20:28:43Buschelamiconn: FS #12284 covers a resume issue
20:28:45fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12284 3Failure to properly resume playback (bugs, unconfirmed)
20:29:53amiconnBuschel: I'm not having a resume issue, I'm having an issue with saving resume position
20:30:24amiconnResume it self works (to the position stored back when it worked last time)
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20:30:56Buschelok, then this does not seem to be covered in flyspray yet
20:38:25bluebrother^btw, do we have some playback test functionality since SoC?
20:38:54Zagorafaik no
20:39:20CIA-14New commit by 03zagor (r30785): Make SDL window resizable and send event on resize.
20:39:41bluebrother^has there been any result on the playback project?
20:40:28*bluebrother^ wonders why this player doesn't seem to like to talk to beastpatcher :/
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21:04:46CIA-14New commit by 03kugel: r30786): Fix FS #12337. Skin viewports' line height was initialized with the UI font height.
21:06:32CIA-14r30786 build result: All green
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21:06:58CIA-14New commit by 03kugel: r30787): Reflect the time & date settings move in the manual. ...
21:08:52CIA-14r30787 build result: All green
21:09:30bluebrother^forum admins: Lidress4f is spamming
21:09:37CIA-14New commit by 03buschel: r30788): Submit FS #11805: Add setting 'Start File Browser Here' to manual.
21:11:17CIA-14r30788 build result: All green
21:25:22bluebrother^is there any tool to snoop PTP / MTP USB transfer?
21:25:37bluebrother^i.e. something that also decodes the protocol
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21:49:15Buschelkugel: since r30787 the manual does not build anymore
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21:49:38Buschelthe file time_and_date.tex is missing
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22:42:10pamaurysound on the fuze+ \o/
22:42:41bluebrother^nice
22:43:35bluebrother^hmpf. If I send FWImage.ebn to the sa9200 via MTP it stores it on the data partition and doesn't upgrade the firmware :(
22:43:44gevaertspamaury: well done!
22:44:41pamaurythe bug I had was very strange, I still need to investigate it
22:44:54pamauryand I think I messed up in the volume settings
22:45:37Zagorpamaury: wohoo!
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22:48:42CIA-14New commit by 03kugel: r30789): Fix manual build, forgot to add new files.
22:50:33CIA-14r30789 build result: All green
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22:53:53wodzpamaury: congratulations!
22:54:25pamaurythanks
22:54:40saratogatime for a gentlemen email?
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22:55:35pamauryjust want to fix a few things before :)
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23:19:40Bagderpamaury: awesome work!
23:19:41jpt9Random question... are Sansas the only Rockboxable player that you can buy new right now?
23:20:09jpt9(My Clip's power switch broke, and I'm checking out new MP3 players.)
23:24:56wodzquestion to arm gurus - what is smulbb mnemonic - I guess this is some signed multiplication
23:26:34saratoga16x16 bit multiply of bottom half of registers i think
23:28:33saratogayeah bottom half signed multiple
23:29:00saratogahttp://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dui0553a/CHDIABBH.html
23:29:21wodzthx
23:29:53saratogaFWIW thats a single cycle operation on arm7e :)
23:31:57wodzbottom means [0:15]?
23:33:28amiconnyes
23:33:45saratoga If Y is B, then the bottom halfword (bits [15:0]) of Rm is used. If Y is T, then the top halfword (bits [31:16]) of Rm is used.
23:44:03wodznow r1=0-3, r4=0x0b, lr=ptr_to_some_struct : smulbb r3, r1, r4 add r12, lr, r3, lsl#2 - what is the meaning of something like this considering little endian byte sex? IMO it will always give r12 = lr
23:54:58 Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.55=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.)
23:55:22CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury: r30790): imx233/fuze+: move audio driver to the canonical location
23:56:18 Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
23:56:38 Nick [sanyi] is now known as [Sanyi] (~sanyi@unaffiliated/alexanderc)
23:57:07CIA-14r30790 build result: 4 errors, 0 warnings (pamaury committed)
23:58:15CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury: r30791): fuze+: fix bootloader not set backlight brightness
23:58:20CIA-14New commit by 03pamaury: r30792): imx233/fuze+: fix typo and add dac dma/error interrupts

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