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#rockbox log for 2011-12-17

00:02:47 Join domonoky [0] (~Domonoky@rockbox/developer/domonoky)
00:11:54 Join deute1 [0] (~4d06aa6a@www.haxx.se)
00:13:18 Quit deute (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
00:38:44deute1hey guys, i just followd the developer guide and setup my computer to compile. now i struggling at http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/HowToCompile step 4
00:39:11deute1i typed which arm-elf-eabi-gcc and it says /usr/local/bin/arm-elf-eabi-gcc
00:39:28deute1so im guessing its all right?
00:40:23deute1and im wondering what to do now... i could just move forward to step 5 build... but shouldnt i program my things first...!?
00:40:42CIA-1New commit by 03jethead71 (r31335): Convert remaining memframe LCDs that can be convert to common code. ...
00:40:49deute1doesnt build is equal to compile?
00:41:00saratogathat means you installed the compiler
00:41:39deute1ok so now i could start program and then compile...?
00:41:49saratogathose instructions are to build rockbox, once you have the build tools installed the next step is actually compiling rockbox
00:42:24saratogai would do that first, then once you have everything working try changing things
00:42:29gevaertsYou can make modifications first of course, but I'd say compiling rockbox once first to see if everything works properly is sensible
00:43:06CIA-1r31335 build result: 5 errors, 0 warnings (jethead71 committed)
00:43:55deute1that make sense. thanks
00:46:13CIA-1New commit by 03jethead71 (r31336): Oops. Left some bits I didn't want to keep.
00:48:03CIA-1r31336 build result: All green
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01:06:48dfkti noticed the %tr tag for fm signal strength is missing on the custom wps wiki page
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01:09:11dfktshould i add it?
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01:09:57gevaertssure
01:10:31dfktok, added - just thought it might have been removed for a specific reason
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01:27:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:25:19funmanjhMikeS: FS #12542 : you know crt0.S is shared with other targets? (d2 iirc)
02:25:21fs-bluebotFlyspray doesn't have a task with this number.
02:25:31funmanFS #12452
02:25:32fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12452 3Reduce interrupt latency for AMS v1 and v2 (patches, new)
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02:33:55jhMikeSfunman: yeah
02:34:25jhMikeSit's not meant to be committed as is. I'd take care of that beforehand.
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02:36:36funmanok
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02:43:36CIA-1New commit by 03jethead71 (r31337): Do some things to make -ffunction-sections work better. ...
02:45:34CIA-1r31337 build result: 69 errors, 0 warnings (jethead71 committed)
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03:01:03CIA-1New commit by 03jethead71 (r31338): Get the linker files that slipped through in r31337.
03:03:03CIA-1r31338 build result: All green
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03:08:20 Part WalkGood
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03:17:54jhMikeSshouldn't we decide what the cache functions should be called by now? :)
03:27:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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04:22:08funmanjhMikeS: commit etc instead of cache?
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05:27:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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07:27:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:27:27CIA-1New commit by 03jethead71 (r31339): Commit to certain names for cache coherency APIs and discard the aliases. ...
08:30:15CIA-1r31339 build result: 71 errors, 24 warnings (jethead71 committed)
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08:54:02CIA-1New commit by 03jethead71 (r31340): Swap red and yellow for green on r31339's cranky builds.
08:56:20CIA-1r31340 build result: All green
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09:11:27 Join scanf [0] (~x32@unaffiliated/scanf)
09:11:31scanfhello
09:11:35scanfwhat is the cheapest rockbox-able mp3 player
09:15:59kevkuclip?
09:16:50kevkumayb not the cheapest but best bang for the buck
09:28:00***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:36:56scanfwhats that
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10:47:07bluebrotherpamaury: I get a warning ../../utils/imxtools/sb.c:179:12: warning: excess elements in struct initializer
10:47:28bluebrotherlooking at the initialization it's two elements too much, compared with struct tm.
10:47:34bluebrotheris there any reason for that?
10:47:50pamauryarf, the size of tm is platform specific I forgot that
10:48:03pamauryare you using cygwin ?
10:49:02bluebrotherno, I'm on linux
10:49:11bluebrotherstruct tm is platform specific?
10:49:40bluebrotherI can't see that to be platform specific: http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/ctime/tm/
10:50:06 Quit Topy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
10:50:28pamauryI already run into this problem, compiling on another platform and two fields where gone too, so there must be something platform specific
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10:51:06pamaurymight be my platform which has two more :)
10:51:23bluebrotherwhat platform are you running on?
10:51:45bluebrotherI've just checked C in a Nutshell and it agrees with the link above :)
10:51:46pamaurylinux, ah right it's the timezone
10:52:42pamauryWait a minute, I will commit a proper init
10:52:53bluebrotherah.
10:52:56desowinhmm, is using oscillopsope hooked to some easily accessible GIO to calibrate udelay() loop a good way to do? (that is, write an infinite loop which calls ie. udelay(10), then switches the state of that ouput, and calibrate the func to output square vale with duty cycle 50% and cycle time of 20us) is there generally any better way to approach that?
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10:53:10bluebrotherthere's some #ifdef __USE_BSD in time.h on my system :)
10:53:57bluebrotherah right. The problem is that I'm cross compiling for Windows.
10:54:15pamaurydesowin: how did you implement udelay ?
10:54:33desowinpamaury: I didn't :-) I used the "crude" code that already was there
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10:54:42bluebrotherand my linux time.h actually does include the additional fields.
10:54:55pamaurydesowin: how it's implement ? loop ?
10:54:58desowinpamaury: but the biggest weak point of that is not being aware of boost/unboost
10:55:20pamaurydesowin: doesn't this SoC has a high precision counter ?
10:55:21desowinpamaury: volatile int temp=usec*(175000/200); while(temp){temp−−;}
10:56:07pamaurybluebrother: perhaps I should change that to a memset and manual assignment ?
10:56:10desowinit has few more counters than we use
10:56:25desowindunno if those are high precision actually
10:56:43bluebrotherpamaury: might make sense :)
10:57:02bluebrotherwe could of course also #ifdef _WIN32, but that might give new issues with other platforms
10:57:18bluebrotherI can try to check on OS X later, but I guess it's the same as on Linux
10:57:25desowinpamaury: but your suggestion is, to start the counter inside the udelay() and wait until it reaches certain value?
10:57:29CIA-1New commit by 03bluebrother (r31341): rbspeex: fix cross compiling rbspeex.dll.
10:58:07pamaurydesowin: not, high precision counter are useful free running counter, you save the value on enter and wait for it to reach the expected value (since it increments N times per usec usually)
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10:59:14*bluebrother wonders why ipodpatcher seems to ignore the default value for CC
10:59:55CIA-1r31341 build result: All green
11:00
11:02:28*bluebrother grumbles
11:03:17bluebrothermingw32-make doesn't like the calls of submakefiles. msys make has a problem passing the options to the MS programs.
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11:10:18bertrikJdGordon, but rds data is only updated when there is a radio event, so I thought they can be static
11:12:14JdGordonbertrik: sure, but that means you need to do a full screen redraw to update it
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11:22:37CIA-1New commit by 03pamaury (r31342): imxtools: fix compilation when cross compiling for windows (tm doesn't have timezone fields)
11:23:21bertrikmeh, test_codec won't compile for me
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11:24:57CIA-1r31342 build result: All green
11:28:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
11:31:17bluebrotherpamaury: thanks :)
11:44:17bertrikjhMikeS, I see in codec_crt0.c, a ci->cpucache_invalidate(); has been replaced by a ci->commit_dcache();, is this correct?
11:45:02bertrikI'm not really familiar with the cache stuff, but shouldn't this be commit_discard_idcache(); ?
11:47:53bertrikjhMikeS, at least test_codec broke with the recent cache flush/discard changes
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11:54:39bertrikJdGordon, rds radio text is not scrolling anymore
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12:11:20honschuHi, I have a SanDisk Clip Zip and would like to use rockbox with it. I have already downloaded the current svn version with git. I have built the version for this device with make zip and would like to load the bootloader now. Is there docu about how to upload this?
12:14:01WalkGoodhttp://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipzip/rockbox-buildch2.html#x4-60002
12:15:28WalkGoodyou might also want to read http://anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66292
12:15:38lebelliumbertrik : is the RDS patch still breaking my theme?
12:16:40honschuI'll read this. Thanks.
12:17:03bertrikI don't know how it broke the them
12:17:33honschuWhat is the best way to compile "rbutil"? Just go into the directory rbutil/rbutilqt and use qmake?
12:18:42lebelliumwhen you gave me a compiled version last month, it displayed the virtual keyboard on the left top corner, at the place of the numeric volume. I can't compile anything so I can't try the patchs myself
12:22:50honschuOr let me ask in another way: What is the appropriate way of compiling rbutil?
12:23:11lebelliumbertrik : if you use my theme, you would notice this very strange bug immediately so I assume it doesn't break the theme anymore :)
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12:28:31SynrGscanf: i'd agree on the clip. definitely a good value for your money ("bang for your buck")
12:29:24SynrGthree of our family members own them. i picked up three more for gifts this christmas. $40 from futureshop (canada)
12:30:30SynrGah, except the deal is over now. back to $50
12:31:33SynrGclip+ to be precise
12:31:35SynrG4G model
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13:25:44scanfSynrG: would one like this with SDHC additional work: http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Sansa-Player-microSDHC-Storage/dp/B005ORQLAM/
13:28:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:32:15WalkGood<honschu> i'm not really sure what you asking about rbutil, if you're looking to compile rockbox sc this should help http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SimpleGuideToCompiling#Introduction
13:32:35WalkGood*i wass away, sorry for delay
13:34:07WalkGoodscanf i have the zip, are you in the states? if so costco has the 8gb for $39.99 sale on it
13:34:34scanfyes but i dont think there is a zip within 200 miles
13:35:14scanfs/zip/costco/
13:35:34scanfzip has an ext storage port right
13:35:43bertrikyes, is has a microsd slot
13:35:43WalkGoodyes
13:35:55scanfbasically, i want a budget player that can hold *all* of my music (~20gb)
13:36:25WalkGoodi've been running rockbox w/32gb card, latest builds work great
13:36:56WalkGoodusb doesn't always work for me, 1 in 5 but i'm sure that will come
13:37:48bertrikThe clip zip is basically a clip+ with an colour oled display and an RDS capable fm tuner chip, hardware-wise. The sd card driver is the exact same as the one in the clip+
13:38:32scanfdoes fm listen/record work in rockbox?
13:39:13WalkGoodpass, i haven't even tried it. i don't ever use radio on my daps
13:40:43bertrikyes, fm listen works, but there is an annoying ticking sound on the clip+. A bugfix for this has been committed recently, but I haven't tried it. I don't have the ticking on my clip zip.
13:41:54scanfwhat about record?
13:42:03bertrikI haven't tried record
13:42:11bertrikbut it's supposed to work
13:42:54scanfawesome
13:43:04scanfwell i guess the zip is the answer to my questions
13:43:07scanfthanks :)
13:43:26WalkGoodbertrik did i miss read something or did the last commit mess up rds
13:44:19scanfbiggest sdhc cards are 64gb?
13:45:37WalkGoodit's actually sdxc but it can be formatted to fat and work in some players
13:45:58WalkGood32gb is the largest in sdhc afaik
13:46:17scanfwill sdxc work in the plus/clip?
13:46:58gevaertsdesowin: that delay loop should probably be implemented in assembler. We've had some nasty surprises in the past when switching gcc versions
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13:47:26bertrikWalkGood, there is some to-be-investigated issue with scrolling radio text, but it probably wasn't caused by the last commit
13:47:36WalkGoodfrom what i've read it should if formatted because it's still under the hc specifications but when they go to the xc specifications it won't
13:47:38bertrikscanf, I don't know
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13:47:55JdGordonbertrik: rds wont scroll with latest svn?
13:47:57JdGordonlame!
13:48:06bertriksdxc uses a different file system IIRC (one that we don't support)
13:48:24bertrikbut I think you can reformat it to FAT32
13:48:47WalkGoodyes it should work as it does in other players
13:49:05WalkGood[05:54] ic, thks >> <bertrik> JdGordon, rds radio text is not scrolling anymore
13:49:53 Quit JdGord (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
13:51:46WalkGoodi have to say though it's much cheaper to buy two 32gb cards than one 64gb xc card, recently bought 2 for $30 each
13:51:58scanfoh wow
13:52:10JdGordonbertrik: can you put your latest patch up somewhere? You're not still cauing a full redraw when the rds event comes in are you?
13:52:19WalkGoodi've yet to see the xc less than $149
13:52:32scanftheres a 64gb sdxc for $70
13:53:03WalkGoodnice, make sure you buy from reputable dealer, i keep seeing fakes in the market
13:53:08WalkGoodand they look real
13:53:13scanfcould be a fake
13:53:49WalkGooddon't buy cards from ebay
13:53:50scanfhttp://www.oempcworld.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SDXC64GB-10
13:54:53WalkGoodthat isn't a microsd card and fakes are impossible to tell from pictures
13:54:57bertrikJdGordon, yes, I'll put it on the tracker
13:56:58WalkGoodscanf afaik the only way to tell a fake is by testing it, like with H2testw
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14:14:31lebelliumwhat? RDS is included in the latest SVN? huh
14:15:26lebelliumah no I read it wrong
14:19:09lebelliumJgGordon: do you wait for sth particular to included your "Skin viewport layering" into the SVN?
14:19:17lebelliumto include*
14:19:35lebelliumJdGordon*
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14:32:07scanfwhy is the project using svn over things like git
14:32:53*scanf 's day job is migrating a project from svn to git
14:33:52dfkthttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/GitVersionControl
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14:35:19gevaertsscanf: because when rockbox migrated away from svn git wasn't around?
14:35:45n1sfrom cvs
14:35:59gevaertsright
14:36:10n1shmm, test codec doesn't build for target here
14:36:21*gevaerts changed his mind on the correct phrasing halfway through but didn't fix everything
14:39:33n1sah the cache function rename, easy fix
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14:43:56CIA-1New commit by 03nls (r31343): Fix building of test_codec
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14:46:06CIA-1r31343 build result: All green
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15:02:07jlbiasinihello, when trying to play a files from sd I often get the folloowing message: "no .rockbox forlder found, installation incomplete" is ist normal? Should I install rockbox also on the sd? Or is it the storage driver that mix up thing and should be reported as a bug?
15:05:03jlbiasinior could it be related to a bad sd card?
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15:17:52jlbiasinipamaury: do you also have this issue? IIRC one of the problem was a mix of the sd and internal at boot...
15:18:29pamauryI didn't try, I'll have a look
15:18:51jlbiasiniok but this isn't happening all the time
15:19:13jlbiasiniusually take the card away and in again solve it
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16:07:57CIA-1New commit by 03buschel (r31344): Add new metadata feature to the manual section 'Featureset for generic metadata tags'.
16:10:06CIA-1r31344 build result: All green
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17:30:35AlexEditorhello
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17:40:08AlexEditori'm an editor of an IT mag and thinking about writing an article about rockbox. Is there any sort of statistic about the reliability of the upgrade? I.e. what chance si there to brick the player etc. Google shows up quite a bit of cries of help.
17:44:46gevaertsOne problem is that there are vastly different ideas of what "bricked" means. Some people say a player is bricked when it just needs to be reset by e.g. holding the power button for a while
17:46:06 Quit Stummi (Read error: No route to host)
17:46:25pamaurydepends on what you mean by upgrade too, if you update to SVN head, that's clearly no the same as upgrade to a stable release
17:47:41gevaertsI'd say that if you follow instructions, installing rockbox on a player that's on the list of stable ports isn't more risky than doing a "regular" firmware update
17:48:32dfktwouldn't it actually be risk-free, as long as only the rockbox firmware is updated, not the bootloader?
17:49:05*gevaerts assumes that "the upgrade" refers to "the installation of rockbox"
17:49:13dfktah, right
17:50:54AlexEditorbricked = doesn't work and can't be fixed by software means - i.e. needs dissasembly or something
17:51:12AlexEditorby upgrade i mean rockbox instead of the original fw :)
17:52:19AlexEditorbtw is there any way to try rockbox without installing? there's unofficial firmware for canon digital cameras that runs just from the sd card
17:52:32funmanno
17:52:37dfktthere are simulators
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17:55:06gevaertsThose canon cameras have built-in support for running things from sd card (presumably meant for firmware updaters). Audio players tend not to have that
17:55:14AlexEditorbtw how many people are working on rockbox? approx.
17:55:26gevaertsGood question :)
17:55:42AlexEditori expected like 5 people here on irc
17:56:01gevaertsWe have about 100 people with commit access. It's hard to say how many of those are active though, but I'd say 20 to 40
17:56:24AlexEditornice
17:57:02dfktAlexEditor, here you can get windows simulators to try rockbox - rasher.dk/rockbox/">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/
17:57:20funmanalso you can make stats from git repo log
17:57:33gevaertsDuring the last month, 22 different people did at least one commit
17:59:11AlexEditoryep just checking out ui for clip+ which i'll be trying this on
18:00
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18:00:46AlexEditoris it more difficult to develop rb for newer devices? like touchscreens, video playback and stuff
18:02:12gevaertsIt depends. Actual hardware support probably isn't more difficult, but touchscreens obviously provide new UI challenges, and we haven't fully adapted to that yet
18:03:15***Alert Mode OFF
18:03:18gevaertsWe've had mpeg1 and mpeg2 playback for a while now. It's not integrated in the regular playback system though, so no playlists and things like that for video. We really tend to focus on audio first
18:05:24AlexEditori was also wondering, how do you actually implement different codecs on these players? I'm not an engineer, but i thought these little gadgets have some specialized hardware that is designed to play some certain codecs and it would be difficult to support, say, monkey audio. how do you accomplish that?
18:06:13AlexEditoror am i wrong and the cpus are quite generic?
18:06:31gevaertsYou used to be right :)
18:07:46gevaertsThe old Archoses only have mpeg audio (mp3 and mp2 IIRC). Newer players just do everything on a regular arm or coldfire cpu (or mips, but we don't have many of those)
18:10:04Mode"#rockbox +v gevaerts" by funman (~fun@rockbox/developer/funman)
18:10:06Mode"#rockbox -o funman" by funman (~fun@rockbox/developer/funman)
18:10:26gevaertsmonkeysaudio is a bit special though. It has quite high CPU requirements, especially for higher compression levels. I think we can handle -c1000 on all players (except the Archoses obviously), but we only have one single player (and it's not even on the "stable" list...) that can handle -c5000, and that's really just barely
18:10:35CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
18:10:35*gevaerts glares at funman
18:11:12AlexEditorany idea what kind of cpus are used in cheap chinese dealextreme players? :)
18:11:25funmanopen them to know
18:12:26AlexEditorand yeah, monkey audio is what surprised me most
18:12:28AlexEditorquite a feat
18:12:49desowinAlexEditor: you mean the s1mp3 ones?
18:12:54gevaertsAt least a few years ago, the *really* cheap players tended to have some sort of 8 bit CPU, a DSP for mp3 and whatever other codec they support, and a few hundred kilobytes of RAM
18:13:13bertrikmp3 or ogg take about 30 MHz on an ARM. A popular player like the sansa clip+ can easily handle that, it runs at max 240 MHz.
18:13:53AlexEditordesowin: heh i didn't know it's called that, but yeah
18:14:38bertrikgevaerts, funman I think all of our current stable targets are 32-bit right?
18:14:45gevaertsThey are, yes
18:14:56gevaertsIf http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SoundCodecMonkeysAudio is still up to date, I suspect your clip+ *may* be able to handle monkeysaudio -c4000
18:15:33gevaertsThat sort of thing tends not to be good for your battery life though :)
18:16:42AlexEditorheh just barely it seems
18:17:23AlexEditorso anyway, what are the biggest challenges when porting rb to a new device? like, if you'd want to support nano 7g or so
18:17:53Mode"#rockbox +o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
18:17:59Mode"#rockbox +v funman" by gevaerts (~fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts)
18:18:13Mode"#rockbox -v gevaerts" by gevaerts (~fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts)
18:18:17AlexEditoror 8g :)
18:18:19Mode"#rockbox -o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
18:18:42*gevaerts hands the microphone to funman or pamaury :)
18:19:03gevaertsI haven't been involved with actual porting, so I can't really answer that
18:19:23desowinAlexEditor: what do you mean by "new"? newly released or not supported yet?
18:19:47bertrikIMO, in general it takes a smart person, with the right skills (reverse engineering, C and ASM knowledge), owning the new device, who also happens to have a lot of free time and a lot of perseverance
18:19:55funmanAlexEditor: i think you need great deals of patience, humility, and other people's help
18:19:59desowinAlexEditor: in some cases, the cryptography used in device is blocking factor
18:20:21funmanand an illegal copy of ida pro^W^W^W^W^W^W objdump
18:20:39bertrikin particular, newer apple players appear to have a lot of encryption stuff
18:21:02AlexEditordesowin: especially new architecture, so not like from clip to clip+, but something qiute new
18:21:07AlexEditoraha
18:21:14AlexEditoryeah sounds like apple
18:21:24AlexEditor:P
18:22:32bertrikbasically the same requirements, but more of it :)
18:23:21funmana lot of ports were "easily" made thanks to different players using the same architecture
18:23:39funman"clip" to "clip+" wasn't actually that easy. it was an 12:21 <ringo> and that one has packet loss for at least one of my HD streams … but that is lower priority
18:23:42funman12:21 <funman> !that might be part of the wishlist: fix the decoder
18:23:44funman12:21 <ringo> http://www.bcpa.net/
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18:24:04*funman need an anti copy/paste
18:24:17funman... architecture upgrade
18:24:28bertrikthe first step is usually to find a way to run your own code on the device, like find some kind of USB boot mode, or injecting your own code into a firmware upgrade
18:24:49desowin...or tear it all apart and find JTAG
18:25:13gevaertsDeveloper-owned players tend to have been opened at least once :)
18:29:01AlexEditordoes the work often require meddling with the hardware itself?
18:29:09desowinAlexEditor: and beside finding a way to run custom code, the other big obstacle is (sometimes) having to deal with chips without publicly available datasheets
18:29:38desowinAlexEditor: for Sansa Connect, I have done a lot of hardware hacking (in fact, there still isn't purely software method to run Rockbox on it)
18:30:46AlexEditori often wonder why the companies don't just support or even use such firmware
18:31:04AlexEditori have a wi-fi router with dd-wrt and it blows the original fw out of the water
18:31:19desowinsometimes it's caused by licenses from third parties
18:31:24AlexEditorhm right
18:32:11AlexEditori guess if it's not backed by someone like google in case of android they might be afraid of lawsuits and stuff
18:32:16bertrikIn general, we don't get that much help from the DAP manufacturers
18:33:27AlexEditori'd ask how do you actually write support for unknown daps but i probably wouldn't understand the reply after the first two words, right :)
18:33:28bertrikbasically none, with perhaps two or three exceptions (AFAIK)
18:33:51desowinAlexEditor: unknown daps or unknown chips?
18:34:06AlexEditorwell, chips
18:34:15AlexEditorany kind
18:34:22desowinreverse engineer original firmware is easiest
18:35:05desowinthat is, when the manufacturer will refuse to give any docs even under NDA (or under NDA wchich prevents releasing source code)
18:35:31desowin(manufacturer = chip manufacturer, not necessary the same as DAP manufacturer)
18:37:02AlexEditorso if there's lot of encryption if the original firmware, this process becomes quite a bitch, right?
18:37:24bertrikyes
18:38:07bertrikfor the newer apple players, it took a lot of effort
18:38:33bertriksome players use encryption, but with a trivial key (like the sansa fuze+)
18:39:26desowinConnect uses RSA 2048-bit key
18:40:11bertrikEarlier sandisk sansa players (e200, c200) used encryption, but tried to hide the key in plain text in the bootloader :)
18:40:21AlexEditor:)
18:40:30AlexEditorso what if you can't get into the original fw?
18:41:16desowinAlexEditor: in some cases it's not really encryption as just signing
18:41:47desowinAlexEditor: which means the thing that it's preveting you from is just running unsigned (custom) code
18:42:18AlexEditorthat prevention against unsigned code can lie directly in the hardware?
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18:43:26desowinAlexEditor: well, there are crypto memories on the market... but I doubt any DAP on the market uses that to prevent running unsigned code
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18:44:00raroghello, I'm having problems registering myself on the wiki
18:44:03desowinAlexEditor: but it really depends what you mean by that question
18:44:50rarogI get "suspisios change request" page and don't get andy confirmation mail
18:44:55rarog*any
18:45:22desowinAlexEditor: often it's some sort of bootloader that does the check
18:45:39AlexEditorhm
18:45:41AlexEditorso
18:45:55AlexEditorthe original bootloader usually stays?
18:46:19desowinAlexEditor: and the thing needed is in such cases, to patch that check (this involes finding some exploitable bug and a way to overwrite the bootloader (in case of Connect it requires applying high voltage))
18:46:36AlexEditorum now i get it
18:47:16AlexEditori thought rb overwrites the whole fw including the bootloader, so i didn't understand the problem about unsigned code
18:47:19AlexEditorsry
18:47:58desowinAlexEditor: but well, most what I say is the case of Sansa Connect, don't assume it's the same everywhere
18:48:49AlexEditoryeah sure, i read on wiki about rockbox bootloader, so i thought it' used all the time
18:49:00AlexEditori see it's different on various players
18:49:41desowinAlexEditor: yes, it's used, but in some cases it's not really overwritting the code that's being run right after power-on due to some reasons
18:50:08desowinsuch a reason can be really hard way to debrick the player if that gets damaged
18:50:28AlexEditorwhere did you people learn this low-level stuff?
18:51:03AlexEditor:)
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18:53:00desowinAlexEditor: it works something like "core bootloader" (which can handle recovery modes or something) -> Rockbox bootloader -> main firmware
18:54:56AlexEditori see
18:55:48desowinif you read into datasheets, you can sometimes find a few-stage bootloaders
18:56:49desowinwhere the first stage for example is in on-chip ROM which loads the next stage bootlaoder from NAND or something
18:57:36desowinand the engineer don't really have a way to replace that ROM code :P
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18:59:11AlexEditorexcept replacing the chip probably
18:59:31desowinfinding a drop in replacement for SoC is really difficult
18:59:47AlexEditori can imagine
19:00
19:00:01desowinbut yeah, if you are capable of manufacturing modified versions of chips, why not :D
19:00:35AlexEditormod-chips for mp3s like for the old playstations :)
19:00:55desowinAlexEditor: mod chip is way easier to do than what I just said
19:01:19AlexEditori know, just kiddn'
19:02:45AlexEditorokay, back to more manageable problems, if the original firmware is encrypted, how do you learn about the hardware specs? if the data is not available that is
19:03:17desowindisassemble the player and look at the components markings
19:03:55desowinthat can give a rough idea about what to expect from it (ie. architecture)
19:04:16AlexEditorsay the architecture is sort-of known but some chips are new
19:04:58desowinAlexEditor: well, look at websites of big players like TI
19:05:42desowinas long as the chips aren't semi-custom or full-custom it shouldn't be that hard to find any info about them
19:06:09desowin(any doesn't mean datasheet)
19:07:53AlexEditorand if the chip is custom or the information is really scarce?
19:08:13desowinif the chip is custom there usually is literally no information at all
19:08:32AlexEditorcan you still work around it somehow?
19:08:35Bagderalthough custom chips are often similar to non-custom ones
19:08:44Bagderlike the ipod ones
19:10:18AlexEditorso the most likely cation is to find the closest chip family, try to run the code you have and then debug it?
19:10:22AlexEditor*action
19:11:30desowinAlexEditor: what is the desired audience for that article?
19:11:59desowinI guess it's not targeted for people with ee or cs degree, right?
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19:12:13AlexEditorno
19:12:23AlexEditorcustomers mostly
19:12:49 Quit webguest85 (Client Quit)
19:13:08AlexEditori'm not a programmer myself
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19:14:20alienkid10metaphysis: it's ok
19:14:31alienkid10was just locked up somehow
19:14:43alienkid10I was scared there for awhile
19:15:22alienkid10it's out of warranty so I was like eck
19:15:46desowinAlexEditor: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/NewPort - have you read that?
19:15:47metaphysis<alienkid10>:yeah it happen to me once I I was pretty scare too! ;))
19:15:51alienkid10according to OF still a good 40% but I'll charge it now
19:16:06alienkid10metaphysis: glad to know I'm not alone
19:17:02BagderAlexEditor: when reverse engineering parts that speak to peripherals, comparing command or init sequences with known datasheets have helped to find similar documented chips
19:18:03alienkid10thanks for reminding me of hard reset. I've never need to do it before
19:19:00alienkid10metaphysis: go ahead and delete my posts on the thread
19:21:04AlexEditordesowin: i read it, just asking for more details (but not as much as the PortingHowTo)
19:21:28metaphysisalienkid10: I can't do that but someone will probably do anyway. For such urgency help irc is probably the first place to come...
19:22:03AlexEditorokay guys thanks for now, i'll leave ya :) since i see this channel is alive, i'll check back someday when i'll need some clarification
19:22:17alienkid10metaphysis: yeah. I don't have IRC client on this OS yet and didn't know there was a web client
19:22:18AlexEditorkeep up the good work
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19:26:00AlexEditorbai
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19:26:27desowinAlexEditor: to get any more details you need to know a bit about electronics engineering, and if you do, you woldn't probably ask such questions ;-)
19:26:30desowintoo late
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19:31:57CIA-1New commit by 03dreamlayers (r31345): Add const to global pointers to strings. ...
19:34:05CIA-1r31345 build result: All green
19:41:42dreamlayersthe web server sends charset=iso-8859-1, but data shown from svn has utf-8 text.
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20:40:46James_HuntHi. Please, can anyone approve this updated translation to SVN? Passed more than 2 weeks. I'm worried. http://rockbox.org/tracker/task/12420
20:42:59jhMikeSbertrik: it's just a writeback of data to make it coherent with the uncached alias, so yes, commit should be enough
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20:50:49desowinJames_Hunt: sorry if it's rude, but is James Hunt your real name? doesn't sound like Russian name (I guess basing on the translation language)
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21:24:20CIA-1New commit by 03bertrik (r31346): FS #12370: Initial RDS support for Si4701/Si4703 tuner (beast and clip zip)
21:26:31CIA-1r31346 build result: 4 errors, 0 warnings (bertrik committed)
21:27:07*bertrik thinks of a quick hack for that
21:28:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:34:30CIA-1New commit by 03bertrik (r31347): Try to fix r31346
21:36:27CIA-1r31347 build result: All green
21:45:37 Quit Buschel (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20111104165243])
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21:47:18scanfokay, so owners of players with small onboard storage that are also using a micro sdhc card: how do you handle keeping them synchronized to your music collection
21:47:33scanfi have 20gb of music and 4gb onboard and 16gb sdhc
21:47:46scanfhow do i strip it over both properly
21:47:51scanfBest Practises etc
21:51:29 Part jlbiasini
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21:53:16*amiconn usually just ignores the internal storage for music
21:54:05bertrikI do the same on my clip+ and clip zip, no music on the internal storage makes an OF database refresh much quicker
21:55:21scanfthey show up as seperate devices i suppose
21:55:39scanfi guess ill just use the 4gb internal as a flash drive storage and the 16gb sdhc for music
21:55:55WalkGoodi load card via card reader and leave card out till i boot to rb
21:56:15*gevaerts points out that the internal memory *is* a flash storage device, as is the sdhc card
21:56:50amiconngevaerts: Some of the raaa targets do handle ape -c5000 as well. The n900 even does so easily (thanks to being armv7 and using neon code), and the faster android devices should handle it too
21:57:22amiconnWhen built for >=armv6 at least, that is
21:57:47 Quit WalkGood (Quit: gtr later)
21:57:59gevaertsRight. I forgot about raaa
21:58:51scanfwhat rsync line do you guys use
21:59:14scanf(just bought the clip zip)
22:00
22:05:15 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
22:09:46funmanamiconn: do you read the development ML?
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22:13:19ukleinekwhat does raaa mean?
22:16:51dfktrockbox as an application
22:17:01dfktfor android, so far
22:17:27ukleinekdfkt: ah, thanks
22:17:53amiconnAlso for the N900 (which is not android but maemo)
22:18:13amiconnfunman: I'm subscribed to it, but not really following it atm
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22:20:15funmanamiconn: check 'HWCODEC' thread please
22:20:28scanfwhat target should i select for the sandisk clip zip
22:20:30scanfclip+?
22:20:45funmanclip zip
22:20:55scanfits not there
22:21:04funmansvn rev?
22:21:41scanfno its the 1.2.11
22:21:52scanfi want to use the installer
22:21:59scanfnot really trying to compile if i donthave to
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22:23:46saratoga_scanf: the zip isn't handled by the installer yet
22:25:52scanfso how do i install i
22:27:36funmancheck on anythingbutipod forum
22:27:39saratoga_you need to copy a patched firmware file to the player, i think theres one on anything but ipod in the zip forum, or you can compile one yourself
22:32:03funmanwe should make a clipzip bootloader even if usb isnt fully functional
22:32:56scanfi need the OF and bootloader
22:33:10 Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
22:33:34funmanscanf: get the OF on sansa forums, and funman/bootloader-clipzip.sansa">http://people.videolan.org/~funman/bootloader-clipzip.sansa
22:36:14 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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22:37:49scanfokay, what is the 'usb mode' they keep talking about
22:37:53scanfis there a setting i need to hit on the player
22:38:25scanfand will i be able to transfer from my PC to the sdhc card over usb thru the clip zip? or will i need an sdhc reader/writer
22:38:48funmanfunman/clip-zip-01.01.17.zip">http://people.videolan.org/~funman/clip-zip-01.01.17.zip
22:39:02funmanscanf: you ask too many questions, just install it and see for yourself ;)
22:41:17 Join semitones [0] (8255f9cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.85.249.204)
22:41:39semitoneshey, I have some bad news
22:41:54semitonesmy new Sansa Clip+ broke the same way the other one did
22:42:04semitones32 mb disk, no partition table.
22:42:27scanfhmm
22:42:29scanffunman: ok
22:42:32scanfbut im getting
22:42:33scanf[ERR] Model name "clzp" unknown. Is this really a rockbox bootloader?
22:42:36scanf[ERR] Could not load bootloader-clipzip.sansa
22:42:46scanfwhen i do $ ./mkamsboot clpzt.bin bootloader-clipzip.sansa patched.bin
22:42:49semitonesIn the days before it broke, there would be a rockbox error message that flashed up as it was booting
22:42:54funmanscanf: OS ?
22:42:58scanflinux
22:43:07funman32 or 64 bits?
22:43:10scanf64
22:43:44funmanfunman/mkamsboot.x86_64">http://people.videolan.org/~funman/mkamsboot.x86_64
22:44:16funmansemitones: can you dd the first kbyte of the device?
22:46:17semitonesfunman: I can try, can you give me a command or a link to a command
22:47:21semitonesin particular the part where I'd limit dd to 1 kb
22:47:29semitoneskB
22:48:11funmandd if=/dev/sdb count=2 | xxd
22:48:29semitoneswhat is xxd?
22:48:35funmanhex dump
22:48:48semitonesok, thanks, here it goes
22:49:42semitonesfunman: success. Do you want to see any of the output?
22:50:52semitones00003f0: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................
22:51:25semitonesthat's the last line. The beginning eight numbers changes, but after the ":" the zeros are the same on each line
22:52:03desowinthe beginning is offset, so it has to change
22:52:09scanffunman: thanks it works :)
22:52:13semitonesI have to go soon, is there anything I can do to help now
22:52:17scanfnow to setup the sdhc
22:52:20semitonesor should I just come back later when I have time
22:53:04semitonesi think this might be an actual bug in rockbox since it happened twice
22:54:29semitonesalright I'm leaving. send me a memo on irc with instructions on how to help, or that i don't need too
22:54:41funmansemitones: can you put it on pastie.org ?
22:54:58funmansemitones: ah it's all zero?
22:55:06semitonesyes
22:55:39semitoneshttp://pastie.org/3033360
22:55:58saratoga_disconnected nand chip maybe
22:55:59funmandunno what you can do sorry
22:56:32 Join nosa [0] (~m00k@adsl-74-235-79-23.clt.bellsouth.net)
22:57:06semitonesso can you tell if it's software or hardware from that?
22:57:08desowinsemitones: stupid question, is sdb the player?
22:57:33semitonesdesowin: yes. it's the only thing plugged in that's not my hard drive
22:58:02 Quit nosa-j (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
22:58:03semitonesthere's an sd card plugged into the player, but it's not showing up as a separate disk at all
22:58:03 Nick nosa is now known as nosa-j (~m00k@adsl-74-235-79-23.clt.bellsouth.net)
22:59:47semitonesI did buy an extended warrantee this time. Do you think they'd be able to tell I'd installed rockbox, based on what they'd find plugging it in?
23:00
23:00:05semitonesI can tell them it just stopped working, which is true
23:01:23funmani'd tell them that exactly
23:01:37funmancan you boot OF? if not, it's broken
23:02:04semitonesit's broken. the warranty was a good investment :p
23:02:16semitonesdoes this ever happen to you funman?
23:03:33funmanit sort of happened on a clipv1 but it had suffered physical damage too
23:05:18scanfdoh
23:05:36scanfusb doesnt seem to work, file descriptor errors when trying to mount it with SDHC card in it :(
23:05:56funmani was thinking the 32MB drive was the recovery drive, but it would have been the capacity of your player (e.g. 4GB)
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23:24:29*scanf is still trying to figure out what button to hit on his clipzip to 'done' a text entry or save
23:24:34scanfthe top button seems to be cancel
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23:28:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:32:35 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
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23:43:01scanfhow expensive is somethign like mkfs.vfat -c -F32 -n "rbox_storage" /dev/mmcblk0p1
23:43:14scanfits been going for 20 minutes and even moving the mouse has a laggy delay
23:43:20scanf(16gb sdhc)
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