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#rockbox log for 2012-06-22

00:12:50 Join amayer [0] (~amayer@72.25.56.179)
00:31:48 Quit ender` (Quit: Why shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.-- Mark Twain)
00:36:41amayerHas anyone in here installed rockbox on an IPod Classic?
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02:36:51[Saint]How do people feel about the touchscreen cabbiev2's ffwd/rwd/next/prev buttons remaining grey unless touched and only then becomminh yellow?
02:36:59[Saint]*becomming
02:37:09[Saint]bah!
02:39:37[Saint]Hmmmm....the sim isn't displaying my backdrop
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03:07:51[Saint]JdGordon: kugel: a CCCCCC−−>000000 gradient drawn by the theme engine as a backdrop
03:07:52[Saint]<a target="_blank" href="http://imgur.com/88kus">http://imgur.com/88kusa>
03:08:17[Saint](ignore the black around the icons, I just butchered a theme to show you guys this)
03:10:31*[Saint] remembers gevaerts might also want to see this
03:11:16JdGordongot a comparisson shot from the bmp?
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03:50:56sqwishyBefore installing rockbox, windows did not assign a drive letter to my player, so while I thought I was moving the rockbox files to the root of the device, they were being placed in ##MUSIC# or something.
03:51:24sqwishyWindows mounted the device properly after the bootloader was in place and I installed rockbox properly.
03:52:19sqwishyBut, for future reference. Does anyone know how I could avoid this problem and have windows mount the player as a storage device? (Without using the automatic installer)
03:52:39JdGordonsounds like you've got the device in MTP modew
03:53:07sqwishyYeah
03:54:48 Join eckoit [0] (~ryan@50.65.10.24)
03:59:00sqwishyJdGordon: Thanks for the tip
03:59:02sqwishy<3
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04:04:46[Saint]JdGordon: Here's a side-by-side - <a target="_blank" href="http://imgur.com/a/sNa98">http://imgur.com/a/sNa98a>
04:05:02[Saint](also: kugel, gevaerts ^)
04:06:42 Quit TheSphinX^ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
04:06:59[Saint]They're both CCCCCC−−>000000 gradients, but, to get the same effect out of the skin engine it looks like I'll need to select a *much* darker color than CCCCCC
04:07:17 Quit jfc (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
04:07:40[Saint]...and have "Mr. Someone" fix the obvious color banding :-)
04:09:30[Saint]Anyway, yeah...that's a side-by-side (actually a top-and-bottom? ;) ) showing a bitmap backdrop (rather obviously) on the top, and a gradient drawn by the theme engine on the bottom.
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04:10:46[Saint](it also gives one a chance to compare GNU Unifont vs Ubuntu...I think there's a clear winner there)
04:14:18JdGordon[Saint]: hmm... ok, are you sure you've got the graident tag/viewport sized correctly?
04:14:26JdGordonI really wouldnt have expected a huge difference
04:14:57[Saint]its just %V(0,0,-,-,-)
04:15:46[Saint]I kinda saw it coming looking at the status bar, but, I really wanted it to "just work" so I tried anyway.
04:15:53[Saint]No loss, no foul.
04:16:26JdGordonstatus bar?
04:16:44[Saint]errr....sorry, line selector
04:17:16JdGordonok, so our gradient logic is completly broken :)
04:17:46[Saint]Torne and kugel came to the conclusion it was a lack of dithering (possibly among other things)
04:18:05JdGordonthat grey isnt cccccc is it?
04:18:14[Saint]Apparently, yes.
04:18:45[Saint]Oh, do you mean my backdrop, or the skin engine?
04:19:00JdGordonerr...
04:19:11JdGordoni dont really see how they could be doing the same gradient start->end
04:19:19JdGordonthe backdrop is much darker
04:20:07[Saint]my backdrop is CCCCCC, with a 000000+transparency gradient drawn over it.
04:20:35[Saint]Its probably just positioned a little higher.
04:24:06JdGordonwhats the trancparency griadient?
04:24:22[Saint]...buh?
04:25:07JdGordon12:20 <[Saint]> my backdrop is CCCCCC, with a 000000+transparency gradient drawn over it.
04:26:51[Saint]I mean, I started with a plain CCCCCC 240x320 bitmap, and then I created a 000000+transparent gradient and positioned that to my liking overtop of the CCCCCC image.
04:27:22[Saint]as I needed approximately the entire bottom third of the image to be pure 000000
04:27:53JdGordonso they arent a 1:1 comparisson
04:28:27JdGordonmake the graidnet viewport only use the top 2/3 of th screen and try again
04:28:53[Saint]Well, not exactly, no...but its still pretty bloody obvious that there's horrible banding and no dithering :)
04:29:07*JdGordon doesnt know hat they are, but sure
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06:07:15Guardian452|bobwhat is the fuction of the contents of the ##PORT## folder on my sansa clip
06:07:35Guardian452|bobtheres a relatively large 190MB file in there I would like to kill
06:07:42JdGordonignore it... its a sansa folder, notihng we use
06:07:52Guardian452|bobso I can safely kill it
06:08:00Guardian452|bobI dont plan on booting into the crapy old firmware
06:08:04JdGordonyep
06:09:14Guardian452|bobrockbox is awesome It fixed my dieing clip
06:09:16Guardian452|bob:3
06:10:18Guardian452|bobalso is there a way to make the clip+ display in a single color
06:10:22Guardian452|bobthe orange band is annoying
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06:11:39JdGordonno
06:11:57Guardian452|bobbah though I could mess with the lcd voltages and make it one color
06:12:02Guardian452|bobmeh ill buy a clip zip
06:12:59alexbobpclip zip ftw
06:13:11alexbobpit's my #1 mp3 player to buy right now
06:13:53Guardian452|bobyea but what are the hardware specs
06:13:55*Guardian452|bob googles
06:17:34Guardian452|bobhmm
06:18:08Guardian452|boblooking for a player thats relatively water restient and has 24Bit output support
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06:30:24amayeris there a way to set where the database load from instead of loading from root?
06:30:38JdGordont
06:30:44JdGordonno
06:31:12amayerso it always loads all the files on the harddrive section of my ipod
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07:29:43 Nick kugel is now known as kugelp (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
07:30:37Guardian452|bobis there a way to reverse rockboxes boot prio
07:31:03Guardian452|boblike boot the sansa firmware by default and boot into rockbox by holding the left key
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07:33:21kugelp[Saint]: the bad background is a CCCCCC backdrop with transparent gradient?
07:33:50[Saint]no.
07:36:19[Saint]I'm not even sure how that would...oh, wait, yeah...but, no.
07:36:49[Saint]The "bad" backdrop is a CCCCCC->000000 gradient drawn with the theme engine.
07:37:34[Saint]The "good" backdrop started off life as a pure CCCCCC bitmap, and a transparent+000000 gradient was positioned overtop of it.
07:38:28kugelpok I was confused
07:40:27[Saint]Nevermind, it happens to me all the time ;)
07:40:35kugelpit amazes me that the background is that wrong. the top us nearly white and the bottom is light grey at best
07:41:45[Saint]yes, only the bottom-most pixel is actually true black according to GIMP.
07:43:32kugelpthat's how it would be in an ideal gradient too :-P
07:45:31kugelphow transparent is the overlay at the top? CCCCCC should be pretty light
07:46:20[Saint]its approximately 60% transparency at the top.
07:47:05[Saint]possible more, as I ran a blur filter over the backdrop set I made a few times as well.
07:47:29kugelpah its far away from CCCCCC
07:48:17kugelpseleting the colors as line selector doesn't look as bad
07:48:57kugelpbut obviously not like the backdrop either
07:49:01[Saint]Well, yes. The test I made was just to see how it would look. I was going to set as near as possible to the colors in the bitmap backdrops I made afterward, if it looked ok.
07:49:31[Saint]I wasn't going to put any serious effort into until I knew it wouldn't make anyones eyes bleed.
07:49:33kugelpright, the banding is a deal breaker
07:49:42*[Saint] nods
07:50:13 Nick Jack87 is now known as Jack87|Away (Jack87@nasadmin/admin/jack87)
07:51:45kugelpI think our dithering can only work on loading files from disk currently, some possibly non-trivial changes are needed there
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08:20:12Guardian452|bobwhy is the doom game all fuzzy on the clip+ ?
08:20:23Guardian452|bobjust cheating due to lack of power/ram ?
08:25:47alexbobpit's dithering
08:26:02alexbobphow else do you do a color game on a monochrome display?
08:26:14alexbobpthe pixels don't even support grayscale afaik
08:34:42 Nick kugelp is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
08:39:26Guardian452|bobI would have thrown the colors out all togetor
08:39:28Guardian452|bob>
08:39:33Guardian452|bobcan't even see whats going on
08:39:43Guardian452|bobmakes it pretty well unplayable
08:39:57[Saint_]And, you think that would help?
08:40:15[Saint_]if there wasn't an attempt to convert the colours, you know what you'd see?
08:40:21Guardian452|bobGRAY?
08:40:22[Saint_]A solid blue screen.
08:40:27[Saint_]that's it.
08:41:15[Saint_]there is no "grey", its simply an optical illusion.
08:41:54[Saint_]The pixels are all one colour, the simply flash at different rates to create the illusion of different shades.
08:42:02Guardian452|bobyou can either display black or /blue/orange
08:42:15Guardian452|bobwhats the problem with that make everything blue
08:42:16Guardian452|bob:P
08:42:27[Saint_]orange is limited to the first 8(?) pixels only.
08:42:32Guardian452|bobso
08:42:44Guardian452|bobuse it for the hudbar and throw everything else below
08:42:45Guardian452|bob:P
08:42:59[Saint_]Ok, go for it then. Patches welcome.
08:43:18*Guardian452|bob is currently in search of src
08:43:40[Saint_]Give us a call when you've got a patch ready. ;)
08:44:15*Guardian452|bob realises this is all so he can play doom on a 1in screen
08:44:24Guardian452|bobGLORY TO THE BFG
08:44:48bluebrother^we really should remove doom
08:44:55Guardian452|bobWHAT
08:44:56Guardian452|bob-.-
08:44:57bluebrother^and replace it with the lamp plugin
08:45:02Guardian452|bobfuck you
08:45:12Guardian452|bobhating on doom
08:45:13bluebrother^why?
08:45:14Guardian452|bobthe fk
08:45:22[Saint_]warning, Guardian452|bob
08:45:30[Saint_]keep it up and you can leave.
08:45:31*bluebrother^ prepares a patch that will remove doom
08:45:44*bluebrother^ prepares another patch that will rename lamp to doom
08:45:48*Guardian452|bob slaps bluebrother^ with the delete key
08:45:54Guardian452|bobyou want it removed there you go
08:46:07*bluebrother^ prepares to hit enter for committing
08:46:32*bluebrother^ stops last minute. For now.
08:46:33*Guardian452|bob wonders the proablity of making the usb port fuction as a device
08:46:46*Guardian452|bob starts writing usb-ethernet drivers
08:46:49Guardian452|bob-.-
08:47:10bluebrother^oh, you want to get USB OTG going? Nice.
08:47:15*bluebrother^ awaits patches
08:47:30*Guardian452|bob thinks its probly inpossiblerz
08:47:39*Guardian452|bob consults the tech papers
08:48:27Guardian452|bobnegative ghost rider
08:48:36Guardian452|bobotr is anti−−possiblez
08:48:40*Guardian452|bob is sad
08:49:16Guardian452|bobthe dream of running a mysql server from a 240Mhz hafaARM chip
08:49:18Guardian452|bobCRUSHED
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08:49:26Guardian452|bob*and nothing of value was lost
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08:51:01[Saint_]You could've just asked...
08:51:25[Saint_]there's only like 2 or 3 targets that run Rockbox that are even capable of USB OTG
08:51:47*Guardian452|bob wonders why [Saint_] thought he was serious
08:52:09*Guardian452|bob looks at the clock and realises he has not sleept in ~19h
08:52:30Guardian452|bobOOOoshiettt
08:52:38Guardian452|bobwait just a cotton picking momento
08:52:42[Saint_]Oh, right. I'll try to keep in mind that I should disregard everything you say from now on.
08:52:43Guardian452|bob<a target="_blank" href="http://www.ams.com/eng/Products/Mobile-Entertainment/Analog-Integrated-Microcontrollers/AS3525">http://www.ams.com/eng/Products/Mobile-Entertainment/Analog-Integrated-Microcontrollers/AS3525a>
08:52:45[Saint_]Thanks ;)
08:52:45Guardian452|bob;O
08:52:53Guardian452|bob266MHz. The AS3525 features dedicated high speed interfaces for USB2.0 HS-OTG (AS3525A+B), ATA IDE and SDRAM (AS3525A only) ensuring maximum performance for download, upload, and playback.
08:52:59Guardian452|bobO_o
08:53:06Guardian452|bobO_o
08:53:28*Guardian452|bob has a dollor that says those pins are not even connected
08:53:29Guardian452|bob:(
08:54:26Guardian452|bobhmm anyone have a micro bga work station and a 15x microscope
08:57:53Guardian452|bobhmm
08:58:13Guardian452|bobsleep or hacking on tieny tiny chips @ 3Am
08:58:14Guardian452|bobhMmm
08:58:37funmanGuardian452|bob: please try to keep discussion concise here, a lot of people read the logs and use translators
08:59:09Guardian452|bobtheir problem not mine
08:59:14Guardian452|bobput me on ignore
08:59:15Guardian452|bob-.-
08:59:29Mode"#rockbox +o funman" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
08:59:33Mode"#rockbox +b *!*Cone@*.rochester.res.rr.com" by funman (~fun@rockbox/developer/funman)
08:59:33Kick(#rockbox Guardian452|bob :sure thing) by funman!~fun@rockbox/developer/funman
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09:00:08Mode"#rockbox -o funman" by funman (~fun@rockbox/developer/funman)
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11:03:53gevaerts[Saint_]: for testing that gradient, you could put in half a backdrop using %x, and half using a gradient :)
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12:11:35funmankugel: why do we copy rockbox.zip as a .so in rockbox.apk, instead of using resources?
12:13:22kugelfunman: iirc resources cannot be executed (copied to some noexec folder)
12:13:39funmanzip file needs to be executable?
12:13:45Torneresources are not copied at all, they're mmap'ed directly out of the apk
12:13:52kugelit contains plugins
12:14:05Tornepresumably we extract them, though
12:14:20kugelbut i don't remember the exact details anymore
12:14:43Torneare plugins shared objects on android, or do we just load them manually still?
12:15:08kugeldlopen()d shared objects
12:15:24Tornei would suspect the right thing to do would be to put all the shared objects into the APK directly
12:15:36Torneand to put all the other rockbox files into the APK as assets
12:15:44Torneand not have a zip at all
12:16:19kugelthat's done for codecs now
12:16:24kugelbut not yet plugins
12:16:58funmani thought the .zip was extracted on /sdcard so we can use themes, fonts etc
12:17:09Torneyes, but there's no actual need to do that
12:17:15Torneyou can just open them directly from inside the apk withotu extracting them
12:17:42funmanthat requires a few changes to use java resources instead of plain unix files however no?
12:18:01kugelsomeone just needs to fix the build system :)
12:18:04Torneonly if you want the files to be deflated
12:18:27Torneif you don't mind storing them in the apk uncompressed (e.g. already compressed formats already do this) you can mmap() them directly out of the apk
12:19:13kugelbut the apk is compressed, how can you mmap stuff in it?
12:19:46Torne...read what i just said again? :)
12:20:28kugellet me rephrase, I don't know how to mmap() files that are contained in compressed files
12:20:40Tornedon't compress them
12:20:53kugelapk is always compressed isnt it?
12:21:03Torneapk is a zip, compression is on a per-file basis
12:21:13kugelah, i didn't know that
12:21:21Torneaapt already detects already-compressed formats (like jpg and pals) and skips compressing them, storing them directly
12:21:35Torneand it pads assets to align them to page boundaries in the file
12:21:38kugelI also didn't know that :)
12:21:40Tornespecifically so they can be mmap'ed
12:21:45kugeland that :)
12:21:50Torneyou can tell it other files/tiletypes to not compress, also
12:22:10Tornecompressed resources can only easily be accessed from java, though, you're right (and even then only as an unseekable input stream)
12:22:20Torne(because, yaknow, it's just inflating it as it goes along)
12:22:57TorneAnyway. You can just use Java to do it, for loading stuff
12:22:59TorneI would :)
12:23:13Torneallocate buffer, make JNI call requesting that a particular resource gets loaded into that buffer
12:23:26Tornejava code reads the resource using the normal resource apis in the framework, which will decompress for you
12:23:35Torneit's just like any other filesystem implementation :)
12:24:19Tornethe only thing you actually do have to extract onto the local filesystem is shared objects, because sadly the Bionic dynamic loader can't load a shared object from inside an apk, compressed or not
12:24:36Torne(it would in theory be possible to do it if the .so was stored uncompressed, but it doesn't)
12:26:42kugelwe use plain open() and friends to access themes etc, I wouldnt want to change that
12:26:55Tornewhy not?
12:27:11Torneit's not difficult
12:27:29Tornealso, you don't have to change the places where it calls open()
12:27:41Tornejust wrap open() to abstract the resources out as a pretend FS
12:28:29*Torne shrugs.
12:28:30kugelthat requires changes to rockbox itself
12:28:37Tornenot really.
12:29:31Tornealso: we shouldn't really be handling themes and fonts and things the same way as native rockbox *anywya*
12:29:36Tornebecause we should be trying to mmap() that stuff
12:29:38Torneinstead of reading it
12:29:40Torneto save memory
12:29:59Torne(whether that's mmap() from a real file or from inside the apk)
12:30:22Torneactually the same applies to a lot of things
12:30:24Tornethe database, etc :)
12:31:46kugelit doesnt save a lot of memory
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12:32:10Torneit doesn't?
12:32:12kugelwe usually don't have the files as-is in ram
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12:32:47Tornefonts we do. the database we do, i think
12:33:43Torneanyway.
12:33:58Tornethis is just more ways in which our architecture isn't great as an app :)
12:34:33kugelcould extend buflib to have file-backed allocs, which could be mmap() on hosted
12:34:44Torneyes.
12:35:27Torneand on freestanding it can probably do the alignment/etc to do DMA reads and so on
12:35:35Tornein order to just slurp the file in the most efficient way
12:36:56kugelcould we have some mmap-like thing on native as well?
12:37:04kugeltrickery with data abort handlers or so?
12:37:25Torneonly on the devices with real MMUs, and only if we were prepared to start allocating real 4kb-granularity page tables
12:37:32Torneand then that's not trickery, that's just actual paging
12:37:33Torne:)
12:37:58funmang#239 ?
12:37:59fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #239 at <a target="_blank" href="http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/239">http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/239a> : WIP: read-only memory on sansa AMS using MMU by Rafaël Carré (changes/39/239/2)
12:38:17Torneyou're still using section mappings there, no?
12:38:37Torneanyway, no, there isn't really a trick other than "implement paging"
12:38:47Torneit's fine to have an mmap() that works by just reading the entire file up front
12:38:58Tornethat's semantically valid for read-only mappings
12:38:59Torne:)
12:39:19Torne(fake mmap for writable mappings is possible too but fiddlier)
12:39:44kugelreading into ram?
12:39:54kugelwhat about a real mmap?
12:39:56Torneyeah. allocate the required amount of ram, read entire file into it, return pointer to allocated region
12:40:17Tornewhat about it? not sure what you're asking.
12:40:29kugelcould we implement it?
12:40:32Torneyes, we could implement paging on devices with an MMU. no, i don't think it's at all a good idae
12:40:42Torneit will ruin our soft-RT-ness :)
12:41:31Tornealso it's really fucking complicated
12:41:38*kugel thinks it should be possible without mmu too, even if limited to only one file at a time or so
12:41:41Tornehaving implemented it in a realtime OS before :)
12:41:52Torneer
12:41:53Tornehow?
12:42:57kugelhm, wait, you need an mmu to trap non-ram memory accesses right?
12:43:15Torneyou need an MMU to make a given address not always do the same thing, basically :)
12:45:20TorneOkay, so technically you could do it, but it woul dbe torturous and incredibly slow: what you have to do is use a region of memory which aborts on access (which doesn't necessarily exist on all hardware, some things just don't abort), and then when you take a data abort, *decode the aborting instruction* and look at the registers to work out what address it accessed (because ther's no FAR on MMUless ARM) and then work out what register it wanted ...
12:45:26Torne... the result in and copy the right word of data there
12:45:49Tornenobody is going to do that.
12:46:08kugelright, that was roughly my idea :)
12:46:21Tornethat's absurd, though :)
12:46:30Torneit would take hundreds of instructions to handle a *hit*
12:46:48Tornehm, maybe only *a* hundred, but still
12:47:03Torneit basically means you are emulating the entire behaviour of the ldr and str instructions
12:47:17Torne(you need to do the whole thing, including, say, base register updates for ! and so on)
12:47:24Tornealso ldm/stm :)
12:48:16Torneand even then it still wouldn't be implementable on all hardware, because some devices *never data abort*
12:48:27Torneat least, not externally (they may abort on alignment)
12:48:58Tornesome device buses just return something for *any* address; mirrors or garbage or zeros, and never abort.
12:49:18 Quit mgottschlag (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
12:49:43Torneanyway no. paging is a bad idea for our use case, we want predictable behaviour. as an app, we are already screwed and cannot be sensibly RT no matter how we try so using mmap() is not unreasonable :P
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12:53:39kugelI don't remember we really want that
12:54:12kugel(RTness)
12:54:26kugelat least it's not document that we do or we focus on it
12:55:34Tornewe are pretty much the definition of a soft RT system, at least as a firmware :)
12:56:34kugeli know, but i don't remember it's our declared goal
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13:09:16Tornei don't think it has to be declared: we want audio playback to work reliably, therefore we have to behave in at least a soft RT way
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14:18:41*kugel disagrees, but well
14:20:49funmanhelp me finish g#239 so we can have data aborts *at all*, after that you'll have more matter to debate :P
14:20:50fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #239 at <a target="_blank" href="http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/239">http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/239a> : WIP: read-only memory on sansa AMS using MMU by Rafaël Carré (changes/39/239/2)
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15:52:38amayerare the daily builds stable or beta?
15:53:16 Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
15:53:24gevaertsNo
15:53:37Torneamayer: where still refers to the daily builds?
15:53:37gevaertsThey're daily builds of the development tree
15:53:44gevaertsAh yes, that too
15:54:00gevaertsamayer: also, look for "database.ignore" in the manual
15:54:31amayerso the daily builds are beta
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15:54:39gevaertsNo
15:54:49amayerim confused
15:55:11Tornethe daily builds are an archive of bleeding edge development versions that happen to be spaced 24 hours apart
15:55:11amayeri just installed rockbox last night
15:55:25Tornethey are for people to go back into the past to work out when something broke
15:55:29Tornethey are not something you should install to use
15:55:43gevaertsWell, unless you understand "beta" as "any build that's not an official release", but that's not what beta typically means
15:55:58Tornethere are two choices for what you should install: either the latest stable release (3.11) or the most recent development build (some hex number)
15:56:12amayerok thank you
15:56:39Torneamayer: i assume you are referring to the choices in Rockbox Utility?
15:56:48Tornethe wbesite shouldn't be referring to daily builds any more.
15:56:57amayeri read about it on a forum
15:57:03Torneour forum?
15:59:20amayeryes
15:59:29amayer<a target="_blank" href="http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic">http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topica>,28562.0.html
16:00
16:00:01amayer(i have an ipod classic)
16:00:07Torneah. that's from a year ago
16:00:19amayeryes i noticed. thats why i asked
16:00:45gevaertsAnyway, on the classic you want a dev build
16:01:07amayerare you saying i should or shouldnt use a dev build?
16:01:38gevaertsThere is no other build type available on the classic
16:02:01amayeri got the most recent version off of freemyipod.org(com?)
16:02:13Tornethose are not at all recent
16:02:32amayerso i should download the most recent daily build and install that?
16:02:33Tornethey are very old dev builds :)
16:02:43gevaertsOh, <a target="_blank" href="http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgi">http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgia> still refers to daily builds...
16:02:47Torneno. as you have been told several times you should not use the daily builds at all
16:03:09Tornegevaerts: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml">http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtmla> still has the filename/title :)
16:03:20Tornethat page probably should just go away
16:03:32Tornehaving downloads for the most recent daily build is kinda useless
16:05:03gevaertsamayer: I think you can install an up to date dev build from rockbox utility. If not, go to <a target="_blank" href="http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgi">http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgia>, click "Toggle full/compact table", and look for "Ipod Classic" in the (rotated) list. That links to what you wany
16:05:07gevaerts*want
16:05:43Tornehuh. why doesn't build.rockbox.org list it
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16:06:00gevaertsBecause it's classified as unusable, not unstable
16:06:10gevaertsIt should probably be promoted I guess
16:06:12Tornehrm.
16:06:24Torneprobably yes
16:06:35Tornebut also, i dunno that skipping it on that grounds is particularly helpful
16:06:40amayerwhat is the difference between the ipod video and classic?
16:06:43gevaertsOh, I *think* that's because you can't install it using only rockbox.org stuff
16:07:01Torneamayer: they're completly different devices?
16:07:26Tornethey happen to be about the same size and shape, but that's about th eonly similraity
16:08:03amayeri have a gray(blackish) 120Gb ipod with black click wheel
16:08:41amayersome websites say its a video some say classic
16:08:57Tornethere are no 120GB ipod videos
16:09:00amayerapple says classic but they dont have a "ipod video" descrition
16:09:01Tornethey only go up to 80GB
16:09:08amayerok so its a classic
16:09:12Torneyes.
16:09:19amayerso i cant use the video build
16:09:22Torneno.
16:09:26amayerok thank you
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16:10:05amayerive been using linux forever and not to sound like a noob but i thought this would be kinda like that were you just install general software and it figures most everything out for you
16:10:15amayeri guess mp3 players are more specialized then computers
16:10:23amayeryou guys are very helpful
16:10:46Torneevery player we support is differnt
16:11:07Tornethey share varying amounts of code, but they all need unique builds
16:11:51amayeri went to college for computer science and understand software but hardware has somehow eluded me
16:12:46amayeri like free software. and would like to contribute but im just trying to wrap my head around it before i go making waves in the pool
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16:14:00amayerso the topic that started this disscussion was me wondering if i enable fastboot on emcore will i be able to get back to the boot menu if i want to or will it always just skip to booting rockbox?
16:14:30amayer(i googled emcore fastboot menu and the daily builds came up)
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16:17:25amayerim on the build dev page an i cant find ipod classic. its in the delta table but i have no idea what i need to click to get the correct files
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16:21:28gevaertsThe name at the top of the page
16:21:53amayeri think i found it. you just click the vertical "ipod classic"
16:22:07gevaertsYes, as I said
16:22:30amayerthank you very much. you guys are a huge help
16:22:51amayerdo you know about emcore boot menu?
16:23:14gevaertsno. You'll have to ask the freemyipod people about that
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16:46:51Dr_saratogaso if no one minds i'm going to just commit the playlist sd card code
16:47:35funmani trust you, doctor
16:53:35Dr_saratogalol
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17:05:06CIA-47Commit b30edcd in rockbox by 03Michael Giacomelli: Make playlist.c aware of external storage when determining paths
17:05:18Dr_saratogai think this is a good first step
17:05:40 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
17:05:46Dr_saratogaeventually we should make the playlist code actually search all possible volumes in order to intelligently determine where a playlist points to
17:06:07Dr_saratogabut for now, this behavior is a lot more sensible then just assuming everything was on the internal storage
17:08:10CIA-47b30edcd build result: 0 errors, 105 warnings (Michael Giacomelli committed)
17:09:28Dr_saratogaoh wow
17:09:39Dr_saratogathats embarrassing, but i'll have to fix it in a couple minutes
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17:34:28pixelmadidn't Lear have some objections (in the forums or so)? I haven't followed it unfortunately though :\
17:38:54CIA-47Commit d245997 in rockbox by 03Michael Giacomelli: Fix warning on previous commit.
17:40:56Dr_saratogabertrik: did you get anywhere with the USB file handle issue?
17:41:12CIA-47d245997 build result: All green
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17:56:42[Saint_]gevaerts> Oh, I *think* that's because you can't install it using only rockbox.org stuff <−− Yeah, its "unusable" as opposed to "unstable" because of the no RB bootloader/no RBUtil support shennanigans.
17:57:19[Saint_]TheSeven said at some point that getting the Classic to work with ipodpatcher would be fairly trivial.
17:57:29 Quit fbnlsr (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
17:57:48[Saint_]But, he's been super busy lately and hasn't done sweet FA in terms of development.
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18:00:11[Saint_]amayer: Yes, if you enable fastboot, you can still get to the boot menu by holding <any_key> (other than hold) during boot.
18:00:40[Saint_]And trust me, you want to enable fast boot, it takes those things frickin' ages to boot up.
18:01:02amayerthank you. i went to #freemyipod-support as suggested
18:01:13amayeryou guys are really helpful tho
18:01:22[Saint_]And since there's no Apple firmware, and an end-user pretty much shouldn't touch anything else in the menu, fastboot is the way to go.
18:01:32[Saint_]Most of that menu assumes you're a developer.
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18:01:57amayerit does boot alot faster with fastboot on
18:02:37[Saint_]Apple "cheats" with its booting, because the device never actually properly turns off.
18:02:42[Saint_]The simply hibernate it.
18:03:01amayeris there like a diskdrive utility i can put on as bootable so that i can connect it as a disk drive without starting rockbox
18:04:07[Saint_]No.
18:04:44[Saint_]There would be, but there's no dual-boot, and hence, no disk-mode.
18:04:55amayerso rock box is what makes the harddrive section accessable to the computer
18:05:21amayerisnt there some way i could add a launcher to emCore?
18:05:28[Saint_]Rockbox is controlling absolutely everything on the device, yes. There's no longer a shred of Apple code on there.
18:05:45[Saint_]A launcher to what, exactly?
18:07:19[Saint_]I'm not following what you're asking.
18:08:12amayermy head unit in my car can scan a hard drive and find all the mp3s but it does not support rockbox
18:08:29amayeri can put a thumb drive in with mp3s on it and i can play them through my head unit
18:08:38amayerim looking for a way to do that with my ipod
18:08:49[Saint_]Right, but, as I said...there's no disk-mode, as there's no Apple firmware.
18:09:03amayeri understand
18:09:31[Saint_]If your head unit supported IAP, and in the distant future when IAP is added to the classic port, it should "just work".
18:09:46amayerwhat is IAP?
18:10:23[Saint_]Alternatively, if dual-boot ever becomes functional, and the head unit is happy mounting "dumb storage" (for example, your thumb drive), then that will "just work" too.
18:10:31[Saint_]Ipod Accessory Protocol
18:10:36TorneIt's unlikely that we support any variant of IAP used by a modern head unit
18:10:46Torneso even if we implement IAP on the Classic port it still won't work, probably
18:11:01amayerthe head unit is 4 years old
18:11:04Torneyes
18:11:06amayerand it worked with my ipod
18:11:12[Saint_]Torne: I have a reasonably modern head unit, and it /half/ works.
18:11:14Torneby modern i mean, like, the last decade :)
18:11:21TorneThe relevant info here is: it's probably detecting based on the USB IDs that it's an iPod and then specifically trying to talk the apple protocol do it
18:11:29Torneif you ran a build of rockbox that *didn't* look like an ipod
18:11:36Tornethen it would just treat it like a usb stick and find all the mp3s
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18:13:11Torneit doesn't work because rockbox still identifies the device as an ipod, while not actually being compatible with the ipod-specific usb protocols :)
18:13:12[Saint_]Torne: I can play/pause and skip (but not seek) with the head-unit and my Nano2Gs
18:13:25Torne[Saint_]: that's an old fashioned one, then
18:13:34Tornei.e. one that is using the ipod to playt he audio
18:13:43Tornemodern ones just read the data from the ipod and play the audio themselves
18:13:44[Saint_]its only 2~3 years old.
18:13:52Torneokay, so replace with "cheap"
18:13:54Torne:)
18:14:01[Saint_]Its certainly not cheap.
18:14:07Tornethen you got ripped off :)
18:14:08[Saint_]its *very* not cheap.
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18:14:31Tornemodern flashy head units seem to use the latest usb protocol to just look into the iTunesDB on the device
18:14:43Torneand then just treat the ipod as a disk, but give you browsing info based on the DB
18:14:48Tornei.e. the player is not doing much of the work at all
18:15:01Torneor various similar weird schemes that we don't support even a little bit
18:15:21Tornethis is usually what is wrong when a device is able to play mp3s off a dumb usb stick, but not off a rockbox'ed ipod.
18:15:57[Saint_]If I use the Apple firmware and plug it in, it puts a nice little "Sony Xplod" logo on the screen.
18:16:08[Saint_]...it'd be nice if we knew how to do magic like this in RB
18:22:19amayerthats the head unit i have "Sony Xplod"
18:22:24amayerwe could figure it out
18:22:51amayerive seen it on a couple of head units. i had a touch screen head unit the had a dumb logo too
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18:46:01amayerdoes rockbox support hibernate?
18:48:27Dr_saratogano
18:49:48amayerthanks
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19:11:31Thra11I'm surprised freemyipod haven't updated their releases page. There have been some major improvements for the iPod Classic since their most recent build. (<a target="_blank" href="http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmCORE_Releases">http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmCORE_Releasesa>)
19:14:15amayeri installed that release last night and played music for an hour and it ate half my battery. today i downloaded the most recent build and ive been listening for over an hour and my battery is still full
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19:14:41amayerso i would say yes. there were some major improvements
19:15:03Thra11There's also a random crash that happens with that release but has since been fixed
19:15:18amayeri wonder why they just dont link to the most recent build on rockbox.org
19:18:51Thra11Well the *most* recent build might contain experimental code that hasn't been fully tested yet
19:19:05Thra11So they're trying to provide a more "stable" version
19:19:32amayergot it
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19:22:26Dr_saratogathey should probably just link to the current version
19:23:07Dr_saratogafunman: if I want to test a lower PCLK, is changing AS3525_DRAM_FREQ enough? It looks like the code will figure out the right dividers for me to get close to that number but i'm not certain
19:23:09amayerthats kinda what i ment. not really the daily build but the most current released version
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19:45:48gevaertsamayer: and what exactly would that be?
19:46:05gevaertsFor the classic, there's only the current development build
19:46:18amayerexactly use that
19:46:31amayerthey have a really old version on there
19:47:21gevaertsYes, but I'm not sure what "not really the daily build but the most current released version" is supposed to mean
19:47:56amayerthe dev build isnt the same thing as the daily build correct?
19:49:02gevaertsNo, but the difference is one of frequency of builds, not anything more
19:49:22gevaertsA daily build is build from the dev tree once per day, the current dev build is built whenever the tree changes
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19:49:36gevaertsSo there's no difference in expected quality
19:49:45gevaertsWhich is why we're getting rid of the daily build
19:50:13amayeris there a decently stable build or like a "last known worked" build
19:50:32amayeri dont mean "stable" but you understand
19:50:51amayerim just saying they should like to something more up to date
19:50:51gevaertsNo. We try to keep the dev tree working
19:52:00gevaertsThe normal expectation is that a target reaches "stable" as fast as possible, and while it's not there most builds will be better than older builds
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19:52:19gevaertsAs soon as a target reaches "stable", there's the latest stable release
19:52:43amayerbut there isnt one for the ipod-classic
19:53:30amayerwe were talking about the build hosted on freemyipod.org
19:53:45gevaertsThey're free to host builds, yes
19:54:22amayerim not saying that. i totally agree with them hosting it. but it is an old build which someone said had a bad crash bug in it
19:54:50gevaertsThe ipod classic situation is a bit unfortunate, but the ipod classic is really one of the exceptions here. Most targets go to "stable" reasonably quickly, or aren't really usable at all. Targets that get stuck halfway are hard to deal with
19:55:28[Saint_]Thra11: The point of those releases is to offer a known good build.
19:55:35gevaertsAnyway, if you want to talk the freemyipod.org people into updating their build, you're welcome and you have my moral support, but their channels are probably going to work better :)
19:55:48[Saint_]Its up to you if you want to continue and install a development snapshot afterwards.
19:56:15amayeri guess that makes sence
19:56:30amayeri installed the most current build and it runs ALOT better
19:57:37amayerquestion, can i use the themes from ipod video? or are there no themes for ipod classic?
19:57:47[Saint_]Same thing.
19:58:05[Saint_]The theme only cares a hoot about the screen size.
19:58:13[Saint_]The Classic and Video share dimensions.
19:58:16amayermakes sence
19:59:01amayerthe player doesnt look like it did in the theme
19:59:25amayeri copied all the file to the correct spot but the player is all black and white and is just lines. nothing looks polished
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20:00:05[Saint_]Anyway, the point of the release builds on freemyipod.org, is that they're tested, and they work. Even if there are bugs included. Its largely irrelevant how old the build is, though, as you're going to install a development snapshot immediately anyway (as per the instructions)
20:00:20[Saint_]It just offers a safe, known workig build so you can actually do so.
20:01:20amayerdo i have to manually go into setting and select player theme, then icon theme, then menu theme and change them all? or can i select a config file and it all just loads correct?
20:01:22[Saint_]If they provided releases of the current code, and say....USB broke, you'd be screwed (to some extent)
20:01:43[Saint_]amayer: No, just select the theme .cfg
20:01:44amayer[Saint_]: yeah i get that
20:02:52[Saint_]So, yeah. While it might seem a bit weird that there's ages old builds on freemyipod.org, there's a reason behind it.
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20:03:31amayerits just to make it work not make it up to date
20:03:40*[Saint_] nods
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