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#rockbox log for 2012-10-10

00:00:31 Join alexbobp [0] (~alex@cpe-70-124-68-204.austin.res.rr.com)
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00:22:10speckmade1bertrik: Does it make sense if I test something now?
00:22:18 Join mc2739 [0] (~mc2739@rockbox/developer/mc2739)
00:27:26speckmade1Or can I assume from the above that it's likely that I won't be able to deliver new insight?
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00:43:01speckmade1The YH-820 shows 91 % battery level.
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00:43:56speckmade1which might well be wrong because it complained about low battery and shut off the minute ago.
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01:57:17***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:27:24speckmadeNot sure if there is still anyone around who might be interested in this:
02:35:02speckmadeI got a Sansa Clip+ (AS3525v2 chipset) and a Samsung YH-820 (PortalPlayer 5020 chipset), both with the current daily build of Rockbox.
02:38:21speckmadeWhile Opus files play fine on my Clip+ the Samsung device reacts sluggish and playback is frequently interrupted as if the CPU tries to catch up.
02:39:33speckmadeI'd think that PortalPlayer 5020 with its two 80 MHz cores should be way faster than my Clip's AS3525v2...
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02:47:12the-kylespeckmade: 2 80MHz cores == 160MHz. firmware/export/config/sansaclipplus.h defines the single-core CPU frequency at 240MHz, which is essentially the same as having a third 80MHz core, except that multithreading is unnecessary to take full advantage of the CPU.
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02:48:36speckmadeokay. I thought it's something like 40 or 48 MHz of clockspeed on the Clip+. - All those numbers are still a bit confusing... :-/
02:49:33the-kyleAlso, on some targets, the Opus decoder runs over 60MHz, which can run pretty close to that 80MHz core speed, especially if you are running any DSP or resampling effects.
02:50:07the-kyleIn fact, some targets I think still run it closer to 80MHz.
02:50:54the-kyleThe bitrate of your files can also cause slowdowns. 128Kb/s takes more CPU power than 64Kb/s, for example.
02:51:42speckmadeAll of the test files I use ATM are ~96 kbit/s.
02:52:06the-kyleThere is still work being done to decrease the CPU load, so I don't expect this to be a serious problem on most players much longer.
02:52:58speckmadeYeah - I've noticed and I'm pretty excited - about the speed of development, AOT.
02:53:30the-kyle96Kb/s will probably run close to your CPU core limit for now, but I think there's a patchset in review that may take care of this, at least up to 128Kb/s.
02:54:45the-kyleTo be honest, I was expecting this to take a rather long time. I too am impressed with the progress of development.
02:57:58 Quit rasher (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
02:57:58the-kyleYour clip+ is capable of playing 256Kb/s Opus files, I tested it myself. However there seems to be little point encoding at such a high bitrate.
02:58:13speckmadeI'm not sure if I understand what you're saying the patchset will do...
02:58:53the-kyleThe patchset is supposed to optimize Opus playback so that it takes less CPU cycles to play a file.
02:59:34the-kyleMany of these optimizations have already been committed, but I think there are more to come.
02:59:56speckmadeYeah - I don't know why we can set the encoder to 510 kbit/s. I imagine all those misguided people encoding MP3 at 320 kbit/s CBR today encoding Opus at 510 kbit/s soon... :-/
03:00
03:00:17the-kyleheheh, you're probably right.
03:00:54the-kyleMight as well use FLAC if you need a bitrate that high.
03:01:06the-kyleRockbox can play that too.
03:03:28speckmadeI'm still drunk of amazement about what this new device can do with Rockbox on it...
03:04:37*the-kyle refuses to purchase an audio device that doesn't run Rockbox.
03:05:02the-kyles/doesn't run Rockbox/doesn't have a Rockbox port
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03:19:25speckmadethe-kyle: I'm struggling to understand "decoder runs over 60MHz" and "run it closer to 80MHz". - You mean the decoding process needs over 60 MHz or close to 80 MHz to decode at real time?
03:19:38the-kyleYes.
03:19:50the-kyleBut this is improving all the time.
03:19:57speckmadeseen.
03:20:32speckmadeSo we don't have multithreading for the Opus decoding?
03:21:17the-kyleI don't think so. I could be wrong though.
03:22:01the-kylePP is one of the targets that is getting a lot of attention, so there is likely to be major improvements shortly.
03:23:04the-kyleAs for the clip+, the main issue I've had is battery life, but that seems to be rather minor at this early stage.
03:23:16speckmadeThought I've seen figures of Opus decoding initially needing over 60 MHz to decode and figures of other codecs needing something below 20 MHz..?
03:24:05the-kyleNot sure. Vorbis seems pretty fast these days.
03:24:22the-kyleI don't know that it's 20MHz though.
03:25:04the-kyleIt wouldn't surprise me to learn that Vorbis needed only about 40Mhz though.
03:25:42the-kyleIt's been around a long time, and has been optimized quite a lot during that time.
03:26:35the-kyleI'm sure Opus will get there, it will need some time though.
03:28:04the-kyleA major complaint about Vorbis in its early years was high CPU load and low battery life on some devices, especially phones. But all that has changed, and Opus will too I believe.
03:37:39speckmadeI just fed myself some more numbers: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CodecPerformanceComparison This clears up the picture somewhat for me.
03:38:47speckmadeI should switch to FLAC, if I wanna max out on battery time... :-)
03:39:41the-kyleYes, FLAC probably does take the most battery. Lots of reading, even if it doesn't take much CPU to decode.
03:42:14speckmadeIs reading from flash expensive? - Maybe I should take a look on the benchmark plugin to really answer those questions...
03:42:52the-kyleI would guess it could be, especially if reading is fairly frequent.
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03:57:40tjb0607I hate FAT32
03:58:20the-kyleDoesn't everybody? Not yet...? Hmm, why not? heheheh.
04:00
04:01:01the-kyleUnfortunately, FAT32, like mp3, is likely not going away, simply because everything supports it.
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04:08:06tjb0607I've been waiting 10 minutes for my microSDHC to unmount after copying a few (~35, ~200kbps) songs to it
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04:35:07the-kyleSeems like there may be something wrong with the card. Try dosfsck.
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04:58:01tjb0607I don't know what's wrong with it, it's just being really slow for absolutely no reason
04:58:30the-kyleFilesystem corruption can cause problems like this.
04:58:53tjb0607then it'll corrupt itself every time I try to copy something and unmount it
04:59:15tjb0607I have to run dosfsck -r a lot
04:59:25the-kyleNot necessarily, unless the filesystem is confirmed clean before you copy files and unmount it.
04:59:57the-kyleHmm. That is odd.
05:00
05:01:05the-kyleIs the card inserted in your player, or are you using a card reader?
05:01:40tjb0607inserted in Sansa e200
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05:02:58tjb0607finally got all the files to copy right
05:03:07the-kyleTry putting the card into a card reader and see if it still unmounts slowly. It sounds like either a problem with the e200 or your card. Trying it in a different device should troubleshoot the problem.
05:03:48tjb0607it only sometimes, like after copying a lot of files or being mounted too long, takes so long to unmount
05:04:38the-kyleIn that case, it's probably caching a lot and takes time to copy all the data. It's possible you have a slow card.
05:05:05tjb0607I'm consider replacing it with a bigger one soon anyway
05:05:14tjb0607s/consider/considering/
05:06:46the-kyleProbably not a bad idea.
05:06:58tjb0607and reading from the card doesn't seem to cause any issues
05:07:13the-kyleWriting is generally slower than reading.
05:08:19tjb0607yeah, especially when all it has to read is a 320kbps mp3 fast enough to decode and stream
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06:00:47saratogaAMSv2 is about 2.25x faster than PP
06:00:57saratogaat vorbis anyway
06:04:28saratogaflake -11 encoded flac files do not work with rockbox
06:04:47saratogathey're not required to work on portable devices since they use "optional" flac features
06:05:02saratogabut i think the real reason is just that the frame size is a bit larger then we allocate
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06:54:49onemanhi
06:55:18onemanI just got a clip zip and installed the latest dev version (mainly I want opus support) and it no worky so well
06:55:25onemancurrently its 'crashed'
06:55:29onemannot sure how to reset it
06:55:36onemanscreen is on a play screen
06:56:48[Saint]Our Fine Manual should explain it, but I believe the process is to hold power for ~10s or so.
06:58:48onemanindeed
06:59:10onemanis there a decent dev version for opus support you can point to? I am getting errors playing opus files
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07:00
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07:00:21[Saint]that's entirely expected at present. opus support isn't fully complete as yet.
07:03:51onemanI've heard reports of success ;p
07:06:03[Saint]You _should_ be able to play 64~96k in real-time without issue to my understanding.
07:07:14[Saint]but, that being said, it's still very young and definitely will have some issues.
07:11:42onemanaye
07:11:58onemanlooks like its related to file atleast on the first build I got working
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07:12:19onemantags likely tripping it up
07:14:56onemannot a problem to play a 128k file here
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09:17:28wodzI think I know why some plugins missbehave on PP. .ncbss is always marked as PROGBITS section even it has (NOLOAD) directive in lds
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09:49:26wodzoh gosh, it is gcc bug
09:54:43wodzhttp://sourceware.org/ml/binutils/2005-04/msg00029.html <- But proposed hacks dont work for me
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10:31:09wodzok so it boils down to the fact that I can't find a way to set proper section type for .ibss, .ncbss
10:31:58wodz#define NOCACHEBSS_ATTR __attribute__((section(".ncbss,\"w\",%nobits\n\t#"))) <- this seems to emit right .s file but final elf still have .ncbss as PROGBITS
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10:47:16minouchHello guys. Is the virtual led activity on the status bar gone for flash targets?
10:47:30minouchBecause it dodn't works on sans fuze+
10:47:50minouchNo flash access icon
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10:49:28minouchmaybe it gone where you guys reworked the status bar code. I spoke of course about in built status bar
10:53:15gevaertsThat should still be there. Maybe a fuze+ specific bug? I'll try to remember to test tonight on another flash device (I don't have a fuze+) unless someone beats me to it
10:53:23gevaertsWhat exact revision are you running?
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10:54:35minouchone of the lastest, let me check
10:55:13minouchYeah what I thought too, since I know the fuze+ sort of still in devlopement
10:56:17gevaertspamaury: does the fuze+ implement the right magic to get virtual LED in the status bar to work?
10:57:32pamaurygevaerts: I don't know, what does it require ?
10:58:45pamaurywhat is the virtual led supposed to indicate ?
10:58:55minouchdisc access
10:59:16minouchon the status bar or wps
10:59:46minouchno more on confi files it seems
10:59:48*gevaerts doesn't know the details
10:59:59minouchyou guys always upadte code :)
11:00
11:00:08pamauryhum, I've not done anything in particular, is that virtual led implemented on some targets ?
11:00:28minouchon all stable tagets at least :)
11:00:51minouchI have few other sansas at home where it used to works
11:00:53pamauryhuh, is it based on the last disk access time ? if so it should work
11:00:56pamauryI'll have a look then
11:00:56gevaertsAh, it seems several sd drivers do led(true); and led(false);
11:01:09pamauryah ok, then I'll try to fix that
11:01:26minouchpamaury, yeah real time disc access indicator
11:01:42minouchMMC or SD, don't know for the fuze plus
11:03:04pamaurymmc and sd
11:04:17minouchOK, is that the answer to a question I had too. Why the directory representing the microsd data is called MMC1 where for the others it's called microsd? :)
11:04:40minouchalways speaking for the fuze+ of course
11:06:10pamauryoh, that's a long story :)
11:07:08minouchpamaury: I wish you had time/motivation to do a bit more for thoses Fuzes as for missing LCD functions, CPU scaling.... (battery life scare) :)
11:07:27minouchSanta Santa can you come before this year? lol
11:07:41minouchpamaury: ok :)
11:07:45pamauryto cut it short: the fuze+ is the only mmc based target for a long time, the only previous one was significantly different with a hardware usb bridge and a different interface so most of the code was kind of assuming things about sd vs mmc. When the fuze+ came out with both mmc and sd, I had to break a few things to make it work. This MMC thing is a vestige we could say
11:08:16minouchhahaha :) souvenir for the legacy? lol
11:09:04minouchhybrid thingy with sd, MMC and optianl microsd :)
11:09:11pamauryI would like cpu scaling to work but currently it's unstable, don't know why. Ah I didn't know someone actually wanted those missing lcd functions ^^
11:09:33pamauryI was more or less waiting for someone to complain about it
11:09:52minouchThe fuze+ itself is crying every day for its life time :)
11:10:42minouchWPS not always in sync when you wake up LCD, plus some noises there and here. Not that we canot life with but... ;)
11:12:36pamauryI agree that there is an unpleasant static noise plus some more in some occasion but it's a great mystery and I cannot figure it out with reverse engineering. The only option left is to run the OF in a sort of sw/hw emulator to see what it does. I've slowly began the work but it's tricky. And then there a bugs with the user interface which are not related to the fuze+ :) Unfortunately I don't know the UI code
11:13:36pamauryare you a developer yourself ?
11:14:21minouchOh ok, it sounds like a complicated task indeed. Even if we know you can do it! ;) The UI part are I guess territory of few others
11:14:38minouchpamaury: a bit for the fun lol
11:15:57minouchYour codebase is so huge and various!
11:17:11pamauryok, thanks for your comment, it's always nice to see people encourage us :) Don't hesitate to poke me from time to time if you see nothing happening, you might manage to have it done ;)
11:18:54minouchpamaury speaking noises, with the Fuze+ I must disconect my hearphone before the start if I want to listen some more music in future. I would even say a bit dangerous but still, I guess another bit you didn't get on your reverse engineering about the audio driver
11:19:44minouchpamaury: My pleasure, if at end I can even help 0.5% Rockbox! :) you seems to be cool guy thank you for all
11:20:11pamaurythat pop is a pain, agreed. Unfortunately, the pop reduction procedure if the datasheet doesn't work and the OF code on that part is so intricate that I don't understand anything. From time to time I try but I've not find the solution yet :(
11:21:48minouchLet's hope on a bit pf luck for you next attemtps :) before that thing make someone deaf ;)
11:22:38minouchWith some good quality in-ear headphones
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12:03:01wodzThat is beyond my understanding - the hack with section attributes seems to be working. All object files have proper NOBIT type of .ncbss but linked into final elf it is switched to PROGBITS
12:06:37wodzTorne: ping
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15:53:25amayer_i have a question about:
15:53:28amayer_http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodNano4GPort
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15:53:30amayer_where is the link l4n.cluster.com supposed to point?(that link no longer exists)
15:54:11amayer_also freemyipod says rockbox has a bootloader for it. but i dont see that we support it anywhere
15:54:38Tornethat's the linux4nano project which has disappeared and reappeared a couple times :p
15:55:10amayer_is that different then ipodlinux?
15:55:17Torneit's a later incarnation of th esame thing
15:55:26Torneipodlinux also disappeared and only ever worked on PortalPLayer ipods
15:55:39Tornethe linux4nano project was some attempt to resurrect it for the newer samsung soc ipods
15:55:55amayer_http://ipl.derpapst.eu/
15:55:58amayer_is this just an old mirror?
15:56:10Tornethat's the original ipodlinux project which only runs on PP ipods
15:56:21amayer_oh ok
15:56:34Tornelinux4nano never actually got anywhere that i know of
15:56:45Tornethey helped the freemyipod effort to crack the encryption to run code on there
15:56:57Tornebut i don't know that they ever made any noticable progress getting linux to boot after that
15:57:11Tornepretty much all the people who care about running stuff on old ipods these days are rockbox folk :)
15:57:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:57:52amayer_should i just remove the link from the wiki
15:58:01Torneprobably
15:58:22amayer_do we have any support for this device?
15:58:25Tornenope
15:58:40Tornenot specifically, anyway. some of the drivers for the nano2g and 6g might potentially be relevant to it
15:58:46Tornebut we don't have anything that boots
15:59:44Tornewell, emcore boots, but that's not really sufficient to run rockbox at all (most of the hardware doesn't work)
16:00
16:01:37[7]linux4nano was renamed to freemyipod at some point because it never really made any efforts to port linux :)
16:01:53TorneAh, there we go
16:02:04Torne[7] is the real expert, i just have recollections :p
16:02:16Torneipodlinux kinda died because it wasn't very good for anything :p
16:02:41Torneonce the rockbox port was stable that was a much better music player, and devices with just a wheel are basically crap at *anything else* :)
16:03:06[7]yes, they just have lack of any useful I/O
16:03:32[7]the encryption and such has been defeated on the nano4g
16:03:41amayer_for the hardware section should i like to the freemyipod wiki?
16:03:42[7]we also have drivers for some hardware
16:03:46[7]a semi-working LCD driver
16:03:46amayer_(of the nano 4G
16:04:13[7]but one important thing is missing: a driver for the flash memory and the FTL
16:04:22[7]and that's a huge amount of work
16:04:24Tornenot being able to access the storage is kinda a big blocker :)
16:04:34Torneyou can't play much music that way :p
16:04:39[7]the nano4g boot directly from nand
16:04:45[7]so we can't even flash any code to it right now
16:04:51[7]only execute stuff from ram
16:05:05TorneFTLs are a nightmare :/
16:05:13[7]not just the ftl
16:05:28[7]if you look at the nano2g ftl and some iphone ftls that shouldn't be too bad
16:05:56[7]but we don't even have a lowlevel nand driver yet
16:06:03[7]or even know the peripheral address of the nand controller
16:06:16[7]dissecting these shitloads of EFI modules is a real nightmare
16:06:26Tornegreat.
16:06:36[7](yes, the nano4g has an EFI bootloader)
16:06:44[7]no idea what those guys smoked
16:06:52Tornethat's not really that weird
16:07:03Tornei mean, it's uncommon but it's designed to allow for that kind of thing :)
16:07:14[7]yeah, but why on earth would one do this for that kind of device?
16:07:19[7]if they don't even do it on the iphones?
16:07:39Torneat a guess, i'd say "samsung had already ported it to the SoC"
16:07:54Torne:)
16:07:54[7]hm, I doubt that
16:08:02Torneor at least a similar one
16:08:04[7]first of all, these are apple-specific socs
16:08:13[7]then the same soc is used in the ipod touch 2g
16:08:17[7]which doesn't use EFI
16:08:25[7]so they definitely have a non-efi code base
16:08:31Tornei have one of those O2 Joggler things and that boots with EFI just because its board is a clone of an Intel Atom reference design
16:08:43[7]well in that case it actually makes sense
16:08:50Torneso they just modified the standard efi firmware for it a bit
16:09:46[7]the nano3g/4g efi stuff looks a bit like they used their mac efi code base, which is in turn based on intel's
16:09:50Tornemaybe it was an experiment
16:10:00Torneto see if it was viable to switch the other devices to that approach too
16:10:10Torneand presumably they found it was more trouble than it was worth :p
16:10:22[7]yeah, just like the nano2g was their playground for the iphone 1g lockdown stuff
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21:19:51wutziHi. I'm having trouble with an iPod 6th gen and rockbox. The copying to the device is terribly slow. It tells me it will take 20 days for 70GB! Any ideas? the other thing is I can't get the iPod back into DFU mode. When I hold down menu + select it reboots, but it directly gets me back to the bootloader. I also tried the hold button thing, but no luck.
21:31:55nrgare you using a powered usb hub?
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21:36:31wutzino it's directly connected to a usb port
21:37:25wutzithe funny thing is it starts fast for th first 5 or 6 Gigs and then almost stops. Not even restarting the ipod helps
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21:38:45wutziwhen I hold down the play button, to see what's on the screen i can feel the harddrive working or at least the head moving
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22:06:23amayer_what version of rockbox are you using?
22:06:59amayer_wutzi: ^
22:12:23wutzii tried the release and the dev version
22:12:55gevaertsThere is no release for the 6th gen
22:13:01wutzii know
22:13:10wutziit worked anyway
22:13:36gevaertsSomething that doesn't exist can't work
22:13:38wutziso later i read the dev is actually for the 6g and then i used i
22:13:41wutzit
22:14:52wutziwell the regular release worked fine
22:15:16gevaertsWhat exact revision has the issue?
22:15:21wutzii just installed it manually
22:16:25wutziyou keep the revision somewhere in the source?
22:17:12gevaertsSystem -> Rockbox Info
22:17:19wutzie3e53c9-121010
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22:19:08gevaertsHave you tried other USB ports? As far as I know this works fine for most or all people
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22:20:07wutzino but i am now
22:22:10wutzisame issue
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22:27:48wutzinow it tells me "loading rockbox.ipod failed"
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22:37:10n1sBuschel: found the problem with your C_MULC
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22:52:53amayer_wutzi: it should work fine. im downloading it now
22:53:56amayer_acording to the build page there havent been any changes to it in for a couple days and im using a 3 day old version
22:58:24n1sBuschel: problem was that it was writing the outputs to memory so they had to be read back from memory again as they were used, i changed it so that it would just put the output in vars to let the compiler use it, i also added some slight macro safety and changed the whitespace to match my cf version
23:00
23:00:01n1sthat writing to stack vars and reading back again was what made me think it was spilling but i didn't spot that in the asm :/
23:02:00amayer_wutzi: i copied the new file build onto my ipod classic and it works fine
23:02:22amayer_you are using the classic build right?
23:02:51n1sthe >32 bit accs make both platforms' output very slightly closer to the float decoder too (like a handful of samples more that match than before :)
23:11:19Raptorspamaury, you there?
23:11:27pamauryyes
23:11:29Raptorshow come the wiki says lcd sleep isn't there?
23:11:38Raptorsit is there (at least partially)
23:11:48Raptorsif it just means turning off the screen
23:11:58Raptorsafter inactivity
23:12:15pamaurylcd sleep != lcd power
23:12:25Raptorshmm...
23:12:38pamauryon the fuze+ we turn off the lcd completely
23:12:52RaptorsWhat's the benefit to sleep?
23:13:26pamaurythat's a good question, I don't remember why we have this distinction, but there is a difference on some targets, I just don't remember it :)
23:13:27Raptorsfaster wake up time?
23:13:44Raptorshmm.. kk
23:13:52pamauryperhaps lcd sleep doesn't mean lcd off
23:14:54gevaertspamaury: do you actually power off the lcd, or just the backlight?
23:14:59pamauryboth
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23:15:27pamauryI sent a complete power off/on lcd sequence to the controller
23:15:31pamaury*send
23:15:37Raptorsis that bad for the LCD?
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23:16:21*gevaerts remembers knowing what lcd sleep actually meant...
23:16:33pamauryno, it's just slow
23:16:52pamauryand on some lcd we just don't know the exact sequence I guess
23:17:35Raptorsk
23:18:20RaptorsAlso, it says there are some basic gesture support, is that just backend stuff?
23:18:56pamaurythe touchpad controller has support for gesture recognition but it's really bad, believe me
23:19:02pamauryyou are better off implementing it yourself
23:19:29Raptorsheh
23:19:32Raptorsk
23:19:53pamauryon the ipod6g, the code suggest that the lcd a sleep mode and deep stanby mode
23:20:02RaptorsIf I know how to do it I would.
23:20:23Raptorspamaury, o...
23:23:50pamauryfrom the ilitek datasheet (the one of the fuze+ or similar): in sleep mode everything but RC oscillator is stopped, the GRAM is kept intact but cannot be updated
23:24:44pamaurydeep standby mode: everything is stopped, GRAM is not kept intact; use reset to get out of standby mode
23:25:06pamauryso basically it's a matter of whether the lcd keeps the content or not
23:26:31pamauryfor gesture, the point is that sinc
23:26:47pamaurysince the screen is not the touchpad by itself, it really limits the set of useful gestures
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23:30:35Raptorspamaury, is there any way to make like a scrolling gesture or a wheel gesture (kinda doubt this one)
23:30:36Raptors?
23:31:01RaptorsCan it only recognise up down and left right?
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23:56:41pamauryno no, it's a standard touchpad, you can do anything with it. I only implemented a grid because it's simple. I had some poc code for scrolling gesture but never finished it
23:57:37Raptorspamaury, wait so its not just limited to the lines on the unit?
23:57:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:57:48RaptorsD:
23:57:58pamauryabsolutely not
23:58:11RaptorsIf scroll (like ipod/fuze) could work on this it would be perfect
23:58:30pamauryyou could use it for whatever you want, even charact er recognition it you want
23:58:55Raptorsholy shit, this has so much potential

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