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#rockbox log for 2012-11-26

00:02:29 Quit Wilko ()
00:06:28 Quit lorenzo92 (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0/20121120062532])
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00:31:48coppersomebody should add ".lossy.*" as a valid file extension
00:32:07copperi.e. hide ".lossy" when setting "hide file extensions" to on
00:32:22copper(for lossyFLAC/lossyWV files)
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00:39:02Krill-gnight
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00:42:55linuxstbcopper: That's not trivial, as Rockbox assumes extensions don't contain a dot. i.e. it searches from the end of the string, finds the first dot, and everything after that is the extension.
00:43:20saratogai tried hacking together clip+ radio lock screen
00:43:22coppersurely you can make an exception
00:43:29saratogaanyone want to try (don't have a clip+ handy)
00:43:41saratogawell you could write code to do it
00:44:05 Quit Rower85 (Quit: Hmmm...)
00:44:49saratogaradio lock code (untested): http://pastebin.com/dacnFaPk
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00:57:21 Quit derk0pf ()
00:57:49saratogais there some way to get our rockbox-info.txt to include the master hash
00:58:03saratogaright now its really hard to figure out where modified builds came from
00:58:29 Quit ender1 (Quit: <apo_> I just built a crontab that builds crontabs on another box, so it can wake up the first box in time for it to run its crontabs :D)
01:00
01:02:22JdGordonsaratoga: should be trivial :p
01:02:53saratogahow do i refer to the rockbox git repo's hash?
01:03:51saratogaorigin/master?
01:07:59 Join lebellium_ [0] (~chatzilla@g231206212.adsl.alicedsl.de)
01:08:21JdGordonask Torne
01:11:04 Quit lebellium (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
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01:16:26saratogagot it
01:16:43saratogathis patch changes rockbox-info to print the hash of the origin/master
01:17:21saratogahttp://pastebin.com/qwTJxhCH
01:17:46saratogaperhaps I don't understand, but this is more useful then knowing the hash of the builder's local git repo right?
01:18:24JdGordonI'd print both
01:18:48saratogasince if they have local commits the hash is basically meaningless to others
01:22:57saratoganeed to ask Torne since i'm clueless
01:48:57 Join webguest75 [0] (~7bd38454@www.haxx.se)
01:49:39saratogaJdGordon: how does Version:(master) local[M]-date sound?
01:50:14JdGordonYou'd probably need to make sure rbutil doesnt parse it before touching it
01:50:35webguest75Would it be possible to create an Everyday Looper-type app for Rockbox?
01:50:58JdGordonalso, I've make Version: in that text file match what is in the rockbox info screen... maybe just add a new line for upstream hash
01:51:07JdGordonwebguest75: ?
01:51:29[Saint]time machine...duh.
01:51:33[Saint]:)
01:52:10[Saint]Every day loops, like groundhog day.
01:52:35saratogaJdGordon: well I tried for a while but couldn't figure out how to make bash do that
01:52:46 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0/20121113065533])
01:53:31webguest75Sorry, shoulda clarified it. I meant a plugin that could take input from the microphone and loop/overdub on loops, like the iPhone/iPod application "Everyday Looper"
01:54:00saratogai think i'd actually have to make a whole new bash script to do that, since the "Version:" is printed in perl, while the number is formatted in bash
01:54:44JdGordonlame
01:56:30[Saint]webguest75: it'd likely only be the hosted targets that could handle such a plugin, and the host OS probably has a better alternative.
01:58:02webguest75So there wouldn't be any way to just temporarily cache mp3 audio on-the-fly and create overdubs?
01:58:15saratogaPCM audio maybe
01:58:20saratogadepending what an overdub is
01:58:37webguest75Thanks, it basically means you hear a new pass-over the last audio track
01:58:52saratogawhat does that mean?
01:58:54webguest75Two tracks at the same time, etc.
01:59:08saratogaso you want to load two tracks and play them at once?
01:59:26webguest75Right, though they're created live
01:59:42webguest75As soon as you finish recording the first track, you hit stop and it repeats
02:00
02:01:00webguest75Ideally you could create a temp directory to save files, but have them delete after you exit
02:02:24saratogastorage speed might be a problem, but you probably could do that
02:02:47saratogaalthough i don't think you'd be able to play it back in real time
02:03:17[Saint]kinda defeats the purpose :)
02:03:55webguest75Yeah, you'd kinda need that feature for it to work - Everyday Looper is the closest example of what I mean, though it wouldn't need to be that complicated
02:04:22saratogawhats the difference between ` and " strings in bash?
02:06:06[Saint]As I said earlier when I put my speculation hat on, the targets that have the guts to do this on run Rockbox as a hosted application instead of an OS replacement and /probably/ already have a solution.
02:07:22[Saint]That type of application is asking a fair bit from a DAP with such limited resources.
02:08:30[Saint]...perhaps the Nano2G or the Beast or Classic could do it. Dunno.
02:08:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:09:09webguest75Alright, I'll try that then, thanks :)
02:09:56webguest75I was thinking about something as primitive as a Sansa Clip, but that would probably be impossible
02:12:05[Saint]The Clip is actually kinda snappy (and isn't hampered by a large spinning disk), but I'm not overly confident it'd be able to do this in realtime.
02:12:54webguest75Would the designated format really make a difference in terms of write speed or not?
02:16:12saratogais the clip even capable of playing back and recording at the same time?
02:16:38saratogaseems like something an mp3 player wouldn't ever need to do
02:17:38webguest75You're right, it wouldn't, but there wouldn't be a way to rewrite that?
02:18:15[Saint]Not trivially.
02:18:31saratogacan't rewrite hardware
02:18:39saratogaunless you're going to pay a lot to get the new design fabbed
02:19:04webguest75Yikes, doesn't sound like something I could work around
02:19:33saratogaso when i call this sh script it gives me the git hash
02:19:42webguest75Thanks for the help.
02:19:57saratogabut when i do print `../tools/masterversion.sh` in a perl script it just gives me the first character of the hash
02:19:58saratogawhy?
02:20:32[Saint]'cos, perl.
02:23:27 Quit webguest75 (Quit: CGI:IRC)
02:31:27saratogaTorne: would you take a look at g#356?
02:31:30fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #356 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/356 : Add the current hash of the rockbox master git repo to rockbox-info.txt. by Michael Giacomelli (changes/56/356/1)
02:31:43saratogai have no idea if its ok or even makes sense, but it seems like it'd be useful
02:38:17saratogaactually, is origin/master the current state of the rockbox repo?
02:38:22saratogaif so I guess that doesn't work either
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03:19:47[Saint]glargh!
03:20:01[Saint]building the yp-r0 toolchain is a royal PITA
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04:42:41WilliamCSome how my music player got corrupted, how do I recover it or at least do a format?
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04:52:49[Saint]WilliamC: that's very OS dependent.
04:53:05[Saint]fsck.vfat for linux, or chkdsk for Windows.
04:53:18WilliamCIt's taking forever to do anything
04:53:40WilliamCThe original OS says that the table is hosed
04:53:50WilliamCWell, the original player firmware
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05:56:34*[Saint] *cannot* get arm-ypr0-linux-gnueabi compiled on Ubuntu 12.10 64 bit
06:00
06:01:40scorcheso, repeating from #r-c, the forums appear to be upgraded and functioning well enough now - it just needs some theme tweaking to get the rockbox.org sidebar in place on the side - there are still some mods and settings I need to look at, but those are not blockers
06:02:54scorcheif someone is familiar with website layout/CSS stuff and has some spare time to just add the sidebar on the theme and set the background color and such, after a bit of testing, I can clone that setup over and get the forums back up again...
06:04:44[Saint]uuuuuughhhh, and now I have no idea what's left over that was shat onto my disk by the (multiple) failed attempts to compile this toolchain.
06:05:34[Saint]it /really/ doesn't fail in a nice way at all.
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06:19:51WilliamCI'm thinking that the latest firmware for the Clip Zip is bad
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09:11:33wodzpamaury: Your lcd_yuv_blit() looks pretty general. Maybe we should make it weak function overwritten if someone comes with optimized implementation?
09:14:45kugel_there is already a generic one
09:16:06wodzwhere?
09:16:29kugel_lcd-16bit-common.c or something
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09:27:56wodzheh I guess pamaury copied the function from lcd-16bit-common.c
09:37:42pamaurywodz: there is a generic one but I planned to replace it with the hardware code and never did it :(
09:38:38wodzpamaury: sure but isn't it better to use generic one and copy it over unless you actually come to implementing optimized version?
09:39:21pamauryyes, but I did that a long ago :) Ok, you win, I'll replace it with the generic one a few moments
09:39:35 Quit XavierGr (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
09:41:06wodzeee, I mean *do not copy it over*. Its defined as WEAK alias so you simply have to remove one from target specific file to get generic fallback
09:43:57wodzhell, I have hard time reading disasm of atj adfu binary. Compiler seems to assume that s7 register holds some global base address and uses relative addressing quite a lot. The problem is I can't spot what this base is :-/
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09:53:01wodzAnyone have a clue what is located at first 0x200 bytes on mips memory? It seems reserved for something but can't find in documents what it is
09:55:38kugel_pamaury: why dont you just delete it?
09:55:46kugel_#if 0 is bad style imo
09:56:05kugel_especially without any nearby comments
09:56:39wodzkugel_: you mean me?
09:56:52kugel_i know you added a comment, but it makes me think "why is this #if 0'd code still here"
09:56:54kugel_wodz: yes, sorry
09:58:10wodzkugel_: I prefer to leave it there. Otherwise I bet I forget that there is some magic, general implementation linked from somewhere else.
09:59:15wodzrk27xx lcdif can do yuv->rgb conversion in hardware. I'll replace generic implementation when I figure out how to use this.
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10:01:20pamaurykugel_: I meant to remove it, not #if 0 it !!
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11:02:52gevaertsscorche`: can you send me some infornmation about this theme? I don't know much about this area either, but I should be able to have a look tonight (without promises!)
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12:57:47Tornesaratoga: i replied to the review, but unfortunately the summary is "that way doesn't work and there's not any readily available way that does" :/
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13:31:39melmothXI'd like to help out with the ClipZip manual (at least the missing images). I have the simulator ready, and I grokked out the naming convention and where to put the files. May I proceed or is there a similar effort already going on?
13:32:07gevaertsI don't think anyone is working on it
13:34:37melmothXwhat do you prefer? a tarball with the images in the proper directory or a git fork? (but where to push the changes, assuming but not sure I can't mail a patch with binary files inside)
13:34:43TornemelmothX: neither
13:34:58Tornewe have a gerrit instance that you can push changes to
13:35:26melmothXoh, that's uber-cool. I'm on my way
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13:39:32gevaertsmelmothX: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UsingGit should have all the details you need
13:43:24melmothXi was indeed looking there for the gerrit thing. Can do, no problem
13:56:17lebelliumAnyone already sent back a Sansa to after sales service with rockbox installed?
13:59:32Zagorlebellium: this might be interesting if you're in the EU: http://piana.eu/root
14:00
14:00:22lebelliumThe concerned user is in France indeed
14:00:28copperZagor: the problem is that the manufacturer will likely ignore that and you'll have to argue and waste a lot of time trying to get your rights respected
14:00:52Zagorcopper: sure. but knowing your rights is never bad.
14:00:55copperbetter restore the OF if you can
14:01:24copperZagor: sure, it's nice to know
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14:02:56lebelliumhe guy has a clip zip that is no longer recognized by the computer. OF gets stuck on Sansa logo at startup
14:03:10lebelliumthe guy*
14:04:03lebelliumI'm not sure if it is possible to remove the .rockbox folder with the File Manager while using Rockbox
14:05:31gevaertsIt should be
14:07:41lebelliumand what could be responsible for OF brick? Isn't there a problematic OF database file that can be deleted from Rockbox file manager?
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14:21:35lebelliumhum I just tried on my CLip Zip: after deleting the .rockbox folder while using rockbox there is still the bootloader that displays Rockbox. So no way to hide Rockbox for the after sales service :(
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15:04:44wodzlebellium: it should be possible to reflash device when running rockbox (there is no code for this but it should be fairly simple) but if you removed rockbox I guess you have no other way to run custom code now...
15:06:05lebelliumwodz: my clip zip works fine :) I tried it for another user. I already replied him some minutes ago and he read my posts. So I don't know if he already removed Rockbox yet or not
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15:59:48copperthe "official" rockbox ipod6g dev builds seem to work better than the aroldan/head-fi builds
16:00
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16:17:25copperIs there a way to list "Album Artists" in the database, instead of artists?
16:17:52coppere.g. "Genre" lists all artists, I'd like it to list only album artists
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16:21:04Tornesure, change the tagnavi config to anything you like
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16:23:13scorchegevaerts: theoretically, you can now edit the raw text on the admin panel of the forums - practically, it doesnt work out so well unless you are *extra* careful not to forget a semicolon or something like that, as that will break the page
16:23:40scorchegevaerts: either way, I will get you want you need when i get to work and finish a few things
16:24:04gevaertsOK
16:29:55copperTorne: I put this in /.rockbox/tagnavi_custom.config: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=YR64TULb
16:29:58copperdoesn't make a difference
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16:30:39Tornethat's not how you override the menu
16:31:08copperok?
16:32:01Tornei forget what order it gets included in
16:32:03Torneone sec
16:32:42copperfirst block is used, supposedly
16:32:53copperand tagnavi_custom.config is loaded before the main menu definition
16:33:03Tornethe usual way to do it is to use a different name for th emenu
16:33:14Torneand set %root_menu to something else
16:33:22Tornenot to redefine the menus that are already defined
16:33:22copperok
16:33:22Tornecall it my_main or something
16:34:18coppersure
16:34:58Tornedoes it actually say anywhere that the first definition of a menu is the one that takes effect?
16:35:04Torneit says the first root menu declaration takes effect.
16:36:14Tornethe docs for the database stuff are all pretty wonky and hard to follow
16:38:01copperdoesn't work
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16:39:17Torneby doesn't work you mean the entire menu is completely unchanged?
16:39:31Tornehave you tried changing it to something completely different?
16:39:37Tornei.e. different menu options, not jsut different sorting
16:40:04copperI don't see my menu at all
16:40:04Tornealso, what are you doing to get it to notice?
16:40:06copperI changed the name and label
16:40:15copperI unplugged from USB and rebooted
16:40:41copperI also selected "update database"
16:41:18Torneyou don't need to update the database (the stored data is in the same format no matter what)
16:41:23Tornebut yeah, it needs a reboot i think
16:41:23Torneanyway. it works for me :)
16:41:32Tornenot your config specifically, but i do have a custom tagnavi on mine
16:41:40Tornei don't have it handy
16:41:43copperah
16:41:45Torneso can't give you an example, sorry
16:41:51copperwas gonna ask you to pastebin it :)
16:42:23Torneyeah i don't actually carry my ipod most of the time any more :)
16:42:23Torneonly on long trips
16:42:23Torneso it's at home
16:44:04Torneanyway. you can also just edit the main tagnavi config as long as you are careful not to overwrite it when you upgrade rockbox
16:44:09Tornethe wya the overrides work is fiddly and i don't remember exactly what you have to do :/
16:45:26copperjust did that, worked :)
16:45:45Torneyah, so it's a problem with how you are overriding the menus
16:45:49copperkept a copy on my HDD for future upgrades
16:46:21Torneanyway. as far as the docs suggest and i remember, you should be able to define whatever you want in the custom tagnavi, with different names to the usual ones
16:46:27copperoddly enough, I just plugged and unplugged the iPod maybe 5 times in a row, and it didn't even freeze or crash ;)
16:46:28Torneand then also replace the root menu with %root_menu
16:46:55copperthanks for your help
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17:03:38copperTorne: I figured it out: I forgot to keep the '#! rockbox/tagbrowser/2.0' header on the first line
17:04:02Tornehuh, really? it actually cares about that?
17:04:17Torneodd :)
17:05:57Torneq99999.afsdf
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18:25:00melmothXis it possible to magnify the simulator? the 96x96 screen is killing my eyes
18:27:20gevaertsYes. There's a command line argument for that. Not sure what it is right away though...
18:27:29pixelmazoom
18:27:40pixelmabut I don't remember the parameter (syntax)
18:28:22gevaerts−−zoom <number>
18:28:47gevaerts1 means unchanged
18:28:53gevaerts2 means twice as big
18:29:02melmothXdamn, i should have passed the −−help before asking
18:29:21melmothXthanks people
18:29:31gevaertsYou can use floating point these days and make it smaller if you like :)
18:32:54melmothX2x is really fine. (now that i'm near the end of the chore)
18:34:19gevaertsSome people prefer 0.5!
18:37:18melmothXlol, 48x48 and still reading the writings?
18:40:03gevaertsWell, not for clip-sized things
18:40:20gevaertsTry working on a theme for e.g. the nexus 10 on your PC though :)
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19:07:12melmothXso, basically I miss 4 screenshots. Invadrox, which I can't find in the menu, pacbox, rockboy and zxbox, unclear where to find the roms (i didn't search a lot, to say the truth). Any suggestions?
19:09:09gevaertsInvadrox won't be there. It's only compiled for LCDs with a width of 138 pixels or more
19:10:14gevaertsI'd say leave those out for now
19:10:31melmothXok, perfect
19:15:18Krill--laters
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19:51:31melmothXThe screenshots for the Sansa Clip Zip are here, please review http://gerrit.rockbox.org/357
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20:37:33wodzpamaury: ping
20:37:37pamaurypong
20:38:13pamauryI tried to fix rk27xx usb this week-end but no luck. I can't see what I'm missing, all the init seems right !
20:39:29wodzpamaury: I got actions sdk for atj213x. The files inside are mostly binaries but some of them are packed in this "3DUfw" thing. atjboottool doesn't like them unfortunately. It chokes on Version: 7d (Unknown)
20:40:08pamauryok, can you send me the sdk ? I'll try to reverse engineer this version
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20:43:24wodzpamaury: read priv msg
20:44:13pamauryby the way, I'm not sure there was a version 0x7d in that firmware unpacker I disassembled but I'm not sure
20:44:32pamaurythe code was quite messy w.r.t to version handling
20:45:03pamauryI still have to finish my work on elftosb but it should be a matters of a few hours, perhaps less; then I'll work on this
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21:30:26scorche|1hgevaerts: when you get the time, let me know and I will just give you credentials for that system
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21:46:38gevaertsscorche|1h: pong
21:48:29scorche|1hgevaerts: ok - just a sec
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21:50:34AlexPscorche|1h: It all went OK in the end?
21:51:01scorche|1hAlexP: yes - it just needs to have the sidebar applied and such which i dont have time to do
21:51:08AlexPcool
21:51:17scorche|1hat least it appears fine
21:51:28AlexPgood stuff, cheers
21:51:32AlexPLet's hope it helps!
21:52:07scorche|1hassuming gevaerts can wrangle the CSS to get the page to render properly, i will have a few folk test things to amke sure i didnt forget anything (or cant see the issues due to being an administrator)
21:52:21gevaertsI'll do my best!
21:52:27AlexPsure, give us a shout
21:52:34AlexPIf needed :)
21:52:39*gevaerts really only knows the basics of CSS :)
21:52:53gevaertsI like pain and suffering though, so I'll have a go
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22:19:09pamaurylorenzo (logs): I'm nearly done writing sbtoelf
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23:20:12xenyzHello #rockbox, I have a few questions :)
23:21:05wodzgo ahead
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23:21:54xenyzIs it possible to list Artists with "The" in the name, on the end? I.e. Gaslight Anthem, The instead of The Gaslight Anthem
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23:23:40xenyzOr is that controlled by the theme or something?
23:24:05wodzyou mean in WPS?
23:24:26xenyzIn the database
23:25:33wodzit is not handled by theme AFAIK
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23:26:47xenyzI noticed there's import & export modifications option in the database settings, any idea what that's for?
23:27:20wodzI guess manual covers this
23:27:37xenyzOk I'll have a look
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23:28:48gevaertsxenyz: see http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DataBase
23:29:05gevaertsThere's an example that specifically does the the thing
23:29:51wodzit is really amusing - actions adfu server IS hand written assembly
23:31:24xenyzgevaerts: thanks, this is exactly what i was looking for
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23:36:01lorenzo92pamaury: nice to know, great ;)
23:36:18pamauryfortunately the updater was encrypted with the default key
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23:39:51xenyzgevaerts: so from what i gather it was suggested here http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/5923 but has been rejected :(
23:41:02*gevaerts is of the opinion that if an artist or band decides to have "The" as part of their name, he isn't going to overrule them :)
23:41:25lorenzo92pamaury: uh! updater.sb you mean? that's also a nice thing hehe
23:41:55xenyzI just think it's easier to find the band if they're sorted the other way, but I see what you mean
23:42:16lorenzo92pamaury: I will work again on Z5Update.dat as soon as possible...and player will arrive soon xD
23:42:22xenyzI'm trying to remember how the iPod does it, I think they keep the 'The' but sort it where it would go without the 'The'
23:42:52gevaertsSo what do they do with other languages?
23:43:15gevaertsI think the consensus is that we could accept a patch that adds this, *if* it's properly configurable
23:43:16xenyzI'm only familiar with the english interface
23:43:38gevaertsWell, band names are not related to the UI language, to complicate things :)
23:44:16xenyzExactly, I went into the database options hoping for a switch like 'Sort Artists starting with The'
23:44:27AlexPxenyz: Or Das, or ...
23:44:45gevaertsTechnically if you have, say, a German artist and an English artist, you can *not* sort them :)
23:45:04gevaerts(because neither German nor English sort order is appropriate for both)
23:45:05AlexPI prefer The to be ignored for sorting, but hate it when it still displays The XXx instaed of XXX, The
23:45:14AlexPI find it impossible to find stuff like that
23:45:24xenyzI guess it would be like a database setting, where you choose the Collation
23:45:35AlexPWhat about the filebrowser?
23:45:58xenyzWell you couldn't rename the files in the filebrowser, it'd just be for the database
23:46:14AlexPWell, you could, but I agree with you :)
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23:46:25xenyzI agree the artist is "The XXX" not "XXX, The", but finding it should be under X, not T
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23:46:42AlexPNo, i want XXX, The if the The is ignored
23:46:44Tornethe right way to do this is using sort tags, not having a configurable set of strings
23:46:54Tornewe would love patches to do sort tag support :)
23:46:59AlexPI find The XXX sorted under XX to be impossible to find
23:47:05AlexPTorne: Yep
23:47:08xenyzBut the player should display the artist as "The XXX"
23:47:08 Quit Horscht (Quit: Verlassend)
23:47:16Tornethen this choice of what to display is easy
23:47:19AlexPAs Torne says, sort tags exist
23:47:25AlexPWe just don't support them
23:47:25Torneyou can separately choose to sort by or display the regular/sort tags
23:47:34Torneso you an sort under The or under Who, and see The Who or Who, The
23:47:37Torneas you choose
23:47:41Torneit just needs implementing :)
23:47:52xenyzHmm so it depends on tags on the files?
23:47:54TorneAlso, sort tags work correctly for, say, "The The"
23:48:02Torneor other bands with hilarious names
23:48:04Torne:)
23:48:35AlexPxenyz: yes, if done correctly
23:48:37xenyzBut "The The" would show up under T anyway :)
23:48:38Tornexenyz: there are defined alternate tag properties for artist/album/etc that allow for the name to be present in catalog sort form as well as normal form, yes
23:48:56Torneall my music has these tags because picard does it for you :)
23:49:27xenyzHmm I'll have to check it out, but for all the music not tagged like that it'd be useful to have the player do the sort
23:49:46AlexPOnly for English
23:49:49Tornethat's super coplicated and hard to do correctly
23:49:52xenyzOtherwise a good 20-30% of artists in the list are going to be clumped together under T
23:50:10AlexPWe support many languages, all need to be catered for
23:50:18xenyzYes it would have to be an option you choose to use, not the default behaviour
23:50:29Tornee.g. please sort "Die Krupps" and "Die Screaming" successfully :)
23:50:30AlexPand work for all languages
23:50:33TorneNo, you can't do it with a single option
23:50:45Tornebecause music is named in more than one language regardless of the language of the speaker :)
23:50:50AlexPTorne: I think he is still ignoring everything except The in English
23:50:57Torne"Die Krupps" sorts as "Krupps, Die"
23:50:59Tornebecause yaknow
23:51:02Tornethat's what it means in german :)
23:51:05xenyz"Sort Artists with The" Yes/No
23:51:19AlexPAs has been said many times...
23:51:22AlexPOther languages
23:51:37xenyzYes you could have additional options "Sort Artists with Die" Yes/No
23:51:37Tornei expect die krupps to be under K
23:51:47Tornebut i expect things that are using the english word "die" to be under D
23:51:53TorneYou cannot do this by matching text :)
23:51:59AlexPxenyz: But Die is also english
23:52:22Tornealso there are a *lot* of words that mean "the"
23:52:30Torneif you consider, like, twenty or thirty languages
23:52:33Torneand different genders/etc
23:52:37xenyzIf my main langage is english, i wouldn't be using the Die sort, and vice-versa for German I'd think
23:52:41Tornewhy not?
23:52:47Tornei speak german
23:52:53Tornei know what die krupps's name means
23:53:11xenyzAre a good 20-30% of band's names "Die somethng" in German?
23:53:23Torneor der something, or das something :)
23:53:31AlexPNo idea, but German isn't the only concern
23:53:36AlexPThere are lots of languages
23:53:38xenyzSo that sort would be useful for someone with a german music collection, no?
23:53:54AlexPWe don't want 30 options, a lot of which won't be right
23:53:55xenyzIf 30% of your music was showing up under D, etc
23:54:27AlexPUnless you happen to have e.g. a band starting with Die in English too
23:54:46xenyzI just think Apple got this one right, at least when it's set to English , to sort the artists by the second word if the first is "The"
23:54:59AlexPThat's because they ignore everyone else
23:55:07*gevaerts prefers his view that you can't sort if you have more than one language in the list, so you should always shuffle
23:55:12xenyzIn fact the majority of indexes put the on the end
23:55:23gevaertsThey're all wrongf
23:55:23xenyzput the 'the' on the end..
23:55:32xenyzThey're all right :)
23:55:38gevaertsSeriously. That English-centrism is *very* insulting
23:55:57xenyzBut it would only be when your language is set to English
23:56:14xenyzJust lie the iPod, I'm assuming
23:56:25gevaerts*your* language and the language of the text in the list are totally unrelated
23:57:02AlexPI dislike things making stupid wrong assumptions for me, and then forcing them on me. This is what Apple excel at
23:57:13xenyzI'm just saying that if my player is set to english language, it would be useful to have an option to be able to sort the artists names 'properly' in the usual english-language method
23:57:34Torneyes, and we said that a way to do this that would work all the time for everyone would be to support sort tags properly
23:57:39xenyzIf it doesn't work out for other languages, the option is there to not use :)
23:57:43AlexPNo
23:57:50AlexPThe option is to make it work for everyone
23:57:51Torneif people do't care to tag their music collections properly then we don't care very much to display them i teh order they want
23:58:09Torneadding code for special cases when there is a *better* way that works for the general case is not generally a good idea
23:58:24xenyzI suppose.
23:58:31Tornealso, Apple use the sort tag
23:58:44xenyzRe-tagging an entire collection of music so your player sorts it properly is the other way to see it
23:58:47Tornethey may *also* have a heuristic that guesses that "the" is special, if the tag isn't there, i don't know
23:58:55Tornebut if you have sort tags, then itunes and the ipod sort by that order :)
23:59:00Torneincluding putting Die Krupps under K

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