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#rockbox log for 2013-05-13

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01:09:19 Nick Maxdaman1us is now known as Maxdamantus (~Maxdamant@2001:470:f078::dead:beef:cafe)
01:20:45[Saint]...whoah
01:20:49 Join fordcars [0] (~irchon@modemcable048.140-83-70.mc.videotron.ca)
01:20:56[Saint]Well, that blew up.
01:21:18[Saint]bluebrother: thanks for understanding *exactly* what I was doing there...OP seemed to miss the point.
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01:21:56[Saint]On the forums, I don't tend to think that "pre-answeering" questions is a bad thing...but, apparently he took it badly.
01:22:23[Saint]I feel like I should pop in that thread and apologize but it seems he really is just butthurt.
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01:23:03gevaerts[Saint]: I'd ignore it :)
01:23:47[Saint]Seems like a plan.
01:24:19gevaertsAnd, by the way, as far as I'm concerned it's *impossible* to have a rockbox bootloader boot the OF by default. You could fork the rockbox bootloader and change it, but then it wouldn't be the rockbox bootloader any more :)
01:24:32[Saint]I simply meant "Yep, it could almost certainly be done, but Rockbox won't do it"
01:24:59[Saint]Ohhhh - destroyed by logic.
01:25:04*[Saint] retreats
01:25:18gevaertsLogic is fun :)
01:26:28gevaertsOf course, people who say that sort of thing all the time in a support context *deserve* to be accused of having a bad attitude
01:26:32gevaertsSo I won't :)
01:27:13[Saint]I know I can be terse sometimes, but I only *intend* to be an asshole approximately 5% of the time.
01:27:24[Saint]The other 95% it apparently just seems like I am.
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03:06:09MaxdamantusWhat if someone added it as an option to the rockbox firmware?
03:06:15MaxdamantusMaybe it'd be too late by the time that's loaded.
03:07:10MaxdamantusSo rockbox.sansa or whatever, when reading the configuration, well decide to chainload the OF.
03:08:17Maxdamantusthen you'd need two special startup buttons−−-one to load the OF from the rb bootloader and another to stop loading the OF from the rb firmware.
03:09:27JdGordon_not gonna happen
03:21:58*[Saint] suggests Maxdamantus looks at understanding the boot process first
03:23:00[Saint]`Gah! it took me like three minutes to type that line.
03:23:23[Saint]ionat keyboard hogging kitten.e
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03:23:35[Saint]g
03:23:52[Saint]hggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggwaqssssssssssssssssssssssssssssgmnjkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk;llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll'l;p
03:23:59[Saint]gah!
03:24:07[Saint]Kitten attack!
03:25:49Maxdamantusit can't be that complicated, can it?
03:26:02Maxdamantusbut my point was: it might be possible *after* the bootloader.
03:26:21Maxdamantusso it'd be like kinit/kexec/whatever in Linux.
03:28:10Maxdamantusit would presumably be hardware-dependent though.
03:35:59[Saint]I am honestly struggling to see what the benefit there would be.
03:36:26[Saint]Lots of pissing around and extra code to do something we can already do in a more sensible fashion.
03:39:08[Saint]Torne: around?
03:40:11[Saint]Torne: I just so happen to have an iPod video and a Crucial 256GB mSATA disk sitting here (will have it for a few days to play with before it goes off to a customer), anything in particular you need poked at/tested?
03:41:44[Saint]Fired off a build with your changes applied just now (with a few other harmless things that live in my tree I can kill if need be), just getting to work on stripping down the iPod now (needed to change out the clickwheel assembly, hold switch and battery anyway).
03:42:16[Saint]I'll have a play and see what I find, but if you have any specific tests you'd like done - lemme know.
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10:46:27aelinoeahey any1 has any idea what make and model of micro sdhc cards would work best on rockboxed mp3-players? I have no idea where to to and ask this, some reviews in amazon said that some cards are really crappy
10:46:54aelinoeai have sansa clip to put the card into
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10:48:02[Saint]aelinoea: ....errrr, any.
10:48:24[Saint]Rockbox doesn't care a flying fudge about the limits the original firmware may impose.
10:48:51[Saint]SDHC is electrically and physically identical to SDSC
10:49:03aelinoeahow about do you have any idea on what sdhc cards would be reliable?
10:49:34[Saint]That's not really within the scope of /topic here
10:49:54[Saint]well...s/really/at all/
10:50:15aelinoeayea decided to ask anyway since I really have no idea where to go with this question
10:50:24Zagoraelinoea: any card from a big brand (and which you don't buy from ebay/china)
10:50:35[Saint]Yeah, precisely.
10:50:42[Saint]Just don't buy cheap.
10:50:54[Saint]buy cheap, get trash.
10:51:02[Saint]...most often fake trash :)
10:52:04[Saint]Sure, you probably /can/ score a genuine card for cheap from eBay et al, but, with the price of SD media these days it really is worth it to buy from a major brand from a reputable source.
10:52:34[Saint]You're spending a few dollars more, and guaranteeing quality.
10:53:09[Saint]If you're wondering about the class of the card, it really doesn't matter at all for anything except transferring media to the device.
10:53:47[Saint]A class 2 card is plenty fast enough to play even the most ridiculous of lossless media in realtime.
10:54:31[Saint]But again, with the cost these days, ...why not get a Class 10 card really. They're cheap.
10:55:28Zagor[Saint]: you're rambling :)
10:55:42[Saint]Me? Never! ;)
10:58:23aelinoeathanks [Saint] !
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11:15:31MaxdamantusWhat's the risk of buying one from eBay?
11:16:18ZagorMaxdamantus: that you get a fake card
11:16:20Maxdamantusare counterfeit SD cards particularly common?
11:18:16Zagorcounterfeif compact flash cards were at least so common that ebay themselves wrote an article about it: http://www.ebay.com/gds/fake-sandisk-extreme-compact-flash-cards-exposed/10000000001456539/g.html
11:21:48Zagor"fake flash card" on google gives you more than you want to read :-)
11:23:02*Maxdamantus reckons his 64GB Sandisk microSDXC is real.
11:23:11Maxdamantus(that he bought off ebay)
11:24:33MaxdamantusApparently the fake ones tend to fake sizes.
11:24:38Zagoryes, I would expect the large majority of cards sold on ebay to be genuine
11:24:59Zagorsome fakes are/were impressively well done too
11:26:01Maxdamantusfrom shops here, it's more than twice the price on ebay.
11:27:38copperhttp://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,27811.msg180433.html#msg180433
11:27:43copper"There are two kinds of SDXC cards: one kind is just an SDHC card with a higher capacity which is supposed to come preformatted as exFAT. This should work with Rockbox just fine as long as you reformat it as FAT32. The other kind is a "real" SDXC card which are faster but are not electrically compatible with SD/SDHC readers. This won't work."
11:28:59gevaertscopper: yes, except nobody has ever spotted the second kind
11:28:59MaxdamantusHmm .. I read that SDXC cards are compatibly with SDHC readers.
11:29:48gevaertscopper: also, IIRC some people here on irc have said after that that that interpretation of the available documentation might have been wrong, so the second kind might not exist at all
11:30:06copperok
11:33:53MaxdamantusHm. The Wikipedia article that says that links to a page that says the opposite.
11:34:17Maxdamantus“Conversely, SDHC host devices accept SDXC cards that follow Version 3.0, since the interface is identical,[3]”
11:34:39Maxdamantus[3] → “SDXC memory cards must only with SDXC devices.” .. kind of ungrammatical, but .. okay.
11:35:24Maxdamantusthe page ( https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/sdxc_capabilities/using_sdxc/ ) might assume SDXC→exFAT though.
11:35:27copperI guess the author accidentally a verb
11:36:08gevaertsWell, "Rockbox will work with any SDXC card that's electrically compatible with SDHC
11:36:11gevaerts"
11:36:29gevaertsThat's about as clear as it gets for #rockbox :)
11:36:43gevaertsThis isn't really the place for reviewing wikipedia pages
11:36:57Maxdamantusand what says there is conceivable such an SDXC that isn't compatible with SDHC?
11:37:12Maxdamantusconceivibly*
11:37:12gevaertsDoes that matter?
11:37:27MaxdamantusKind of.
11:37:38gevaertsIf there is one, it won't work in SD/SDHC hardware. If there isn't one, it also won't work in SD/SDHC hardware.
11:37:45MaxdamantusRockbox can be installed on all Sansa Clip Zips that aren't secretly teapots.
11:38:00Maxdamantusokay, but who says a Sansa Clip Zip might secretly be a teapot?
11:38:17gevaertsLook, if you want *that* sort of discussion, this *really* isn't the place
11:38:31MaxdamantusOkay.
11:38:46Zagorgevaerts: end users are typically not very fond of "technically true" statements
11:38:48*Maxdamantus looks at Talk:Secure_Digital
11:38:59Zagorso it does matter for docs
11:39:53Zagorespecially since I suspect most sdxc cards on store shelves are not labelled as "electrically compatible with sdhc"
11:40:05gevaertsZagor: yes, but "We don't currently know of any non-compatible cards, and we don't know if any will exist" should cover that
11:40:22Zagoragreed
11:42:04Maxdamantusso out of curiosity, how does the Rockbox community know this?
11:42:23Maxdamantusis it just from reading the SDXC standard or something?
11:44:19JdGordon_we're very very smart
11:45:44Maxdamantussupposedly authoritative pages (which seem to be somewhat consumer-based .. obviously) suggest the only difference is the filesystem.
11:46:48Maxdamantushttp://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2520/~/sd%2Fsdhc%2Fsdxc-specifications-and-compatibility
11:46:59Maxdamantus“Because SDXC uses a different file system called exFAT and it works differently than standard SD cards, this new format is NOT backwards compatible with host devices that only take SD (128MB to 2GB)”
11:58:32[Saint]Maxdamantus: you can trivially format SDXC as FAT32
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11:58:48[Saint]you're not tied to exFAT
11:59:04Maxdamantus[Saint]: but apparently there's another sort of SDXC that's more than that.
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11:59:20[Saint]more than...?
11:59:37Maxdamantuswon't work with non-SDXC host hardware.
12:00
12:00:02Maxdamantus21:27:40 < copper> http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,27811.msg180433.html#msg180433
12:00:03[Saint]as far as I'm aware it should be electrically identical.
12:00:15Maxdamantusbut noone's aware of one.
12:00:32gevaertsAre we stuck in a loop here?
12:00:38gevaertsWe've been over all that
12:00:59coppergevaerts: it's a bug
12:01:18copperwe're in a never ending loop because someone forgot to increment a variable
12:01:40copperwe're trapped!
12:02:26gevaertsSeriously, this channel is for rockbox development and support, not for random rambling on about other stuff
12:03:37MaxdamantusSorry.
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12:14:05TorneMaxdamantus: there doesn't, in fact, appear to be any other kind of SDXC card, no.
12:14:18TorneMaxdamantus: various stuff online said there was, which is what i posted that based on
12:14:38Tornebut having now looked at (leaked) specs in more detail and watched the market it doesn't look like that was true at all
12:14:49Tornethe SD specs are not quite public so it's not always easy to tell :)
12:16:03MaxdamantusOkay, cool.
12:16:12Tornehowever the SDHC spec, strictly read, forbids >=32GB cards outright
12:16:31Torneit's *theoretically possible* that SDHC devices/readers out there exist which will not read a 32GB or greater card at all
12:16:41Tornebut in practise it looks like zeor people ever bothered to implement that :)
12:16:46Tornesince it's an entirely arbitrary restriction
12:16:55MaxdamantusIndeed.
12:17:14Tornethe field in the CSD that specifies the size was able to report a larger size, it was just *defined* that only smaller values were allowed
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12:39:10WyattsI'm having trouble figuring this out...are there any Rockbox-compatible players that support regular-sized SD cards?
12:40:51copperhifimans maybe, but I'd never recommend those
12:41:41copperthey're pretty bad
12:42:35WyattsBecause at some point they started making 128GB SD cards cheaper than the cost of HDD-based DAPs.
12:42:55wodzand Cowon D2 AFAIK
12:43:03WyattsI could go MicroSD and get a...I think it was the Sansa.
12:43:28copperthere are 3 sansa models
12:43:34WyattsBut MicroSD only seems to go to 64G. ("only", lol)
12:43:36copper(current, anyway)
12:44:11WyattsYeah, I don't remember which, but I can get one for like fifty bucks on Amazon.
12:47:13MaxdamantusI think Sandisk has 128GB too.
12:47:18Wyattswodz: Oh nice. Though I'm not fond of touchscreens... Hmm.
12:47:20Maxdamantusmaybe that was just SD.
12:47:56Maxdamantusyeah, nvm.
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12:49:24WyattsOh bugger, there's nowhere selling the D2 for less than $150.
12:51:22wodzStay on topic boys. Buying is not developing :-)
12:52:55WyattsOkay, the short answer is to wait for 128G MicroSD to exist. Got it.
12:53:07WyattsHave a good one.
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13:02:28mortalis|2wodz: Sometimes switching folder with BUTTON_NEXT+ BUTTON_NEXT|BUTTON_REPEAT lead to freezing. I have report that on 3cad557 such problem doesn't happen.
13:03:14mortalis|2I expect it some sort of timing problem that unveiled after cpu freuency scaling.
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13:03:49wodzmortalis: which target?
13:04:04mortaliswodz: hifimans, ma9
13:04:28wodzhmm
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13:06:53wodz3cad557 is pretty old, lots of stuff changed
13:08:44mortalisafaik this problem is old too
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13:12:24wodzmortalis: If you can reproduce this, make a build with freq scalling disabled to check
13:13:29mortalisI was going to do it tonight
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15:38:25diz_Childanyone tell me how to do a newport?
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15:39:02diz_Childi know something about c, and arm processor
15:39:28amayerhttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/NewPort
15:40:59amayerThats a good starting place. after that if you have a specific question about something just ask
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15:45:05diz_Childanyone have experience of it? how can i get the lcd and buttons driver?
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15:47:13diz_Childi know nothing about the machine, can i disassemble the fiirmware and got some info?
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