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#rockbox log for 2013-06-20

00:00:10 Quit Strife89 (Quit: Vamoose.)
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02:39:21saratogadoes it make sense to pass in local variables to an assembly block, or should I try and find them on the stack somehow?
02:51:13derfFind them on the stack?
02:51:21derfHow will you have any idea where the compiler put them?
02:51:29derf(some of them may not even exist)
02:53:17saratogayeah i'm probably not remembering this correctly
02:53:45saratogaif i just want to have a scratch space in an assembly function, how do I allocate that space from inside the function?
02:54:04saratogajust use the addresses after the stack pointer?
02:54:19derfPersonally I use local variables and pass them in.
02:54:25derfIt seems much easier.
02:54:37saratogai'd have to get them off the stack anyway though on ARM
02:55:17derfIn any case, you _must_ adjust the stack pointer if you want to use the space on the stack.
02:55:56saratogaif i need to store a word, can I just use the next word above the current stack address?
02:56:09derfNo.
02:56:17saratogaisn't that dead space?
02:56:28derfYour process could get sent a signal, and the signal handler will trash that memory.
02:56:36derfAt any point.
02:58:12saratogawell in rockbox i don't think we have anything like that
02:58:16derf(maybe this is something you don't have to worry about on rockbox... I don't know enough about the kernel you run, but you have to worry about this everywhere else)
02:58:17saratogabut i guess that would be bad for portability
02:58:47derfValgrind is even smart enough to complain.
02:58:50saratogawould it work if i incremented the stack pointer then?
02:59:10derfYes.
03:00
03:00:52derfBut if you only need one word... are you really out of registers?
03:03:16saratogai'm not sure yet
03:11:53 Quit amiconn (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
03:11:53 Quit pixelma (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
03:12:12[Saint]saratoga: I'll likely get a response out of you on this, forgive my picking on you: SHould we be adjusting the volume level displayed to the user if precut is enabled?
03:12:26[Saint]_I_ think its a sane thing to do...but, yeah.
03:12:30saratogai don't think so
03:12:50[Saint]Not to offend, but, could you clarify why?
03:13:06saratogawell its not obvious to me what you would adjust it to
03:13:21saratogathe precut is mostly for the EQ
03:13:24saratogato compensate for gain there
03:13:26[Saint]Say the user wants line level, and have a preset with positive gain applied...what then?
03:13:38saratogahow to calculate how much positive gain the precut is balancing out?
03:13:44[Saint]0dB wouldn;t *actually* be line level.
03:14:00saratoga0dB is the gain from the headphone amp
03:14:04saratogathe digital gain is something else
03:14:17[Saint]I was just going to do volume+precut. But I guess it doesn't work how I'm thinking.
03:14:38[Saint]It just seems very wrong to me to not adjust the volume as displayed to the user if we're trimming NdB off it.
03:16:29saratogaits probably best to think of what the dB meter shows as volume, and precut as gain
03:16:38[Saint]If I use a precut of 12dB on the Classic, for instance, the theoretical max volume is then 0dB, but the max volume displayed to the user will still be 12dB, which you would expect to clip...but, it wouldn't, because it isn't really +12dB.
03:16:41[Saint]...you dig?
03:16:54[Saint]Or, am I worrying too much?
03:18:51[Saint]I thought it would be slightly less confusing to just display the volume as volume+precut.
03:19:24[Saint]Then you wouldn't display values that for all intents should clip, were they not precut.
03:20:01 Quit dv_ (Read error: Operation timed out)
03:23:10[Saint]I wasn't quite sure how adjusting the volume in this fashion would affect graphical volume displays in the skin engine, but I was hoping JdGordon would help me there if I needed it. Nedge nudge.
03:23:27[Saint]But, if its really not as sane an idea as I suspected. Meh.
03:23:37JdGordonarg, gimme a tl;dr (in pm if you want)
03:25:40saratogathats only the case if you assume that no other digital processing is happening, if you have replaygain or eq or whatever you might get clipping before (or after) 0dB
03:26:26[Saint]Hmmm. That's a solid point.
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05:47:05 Nick mrtux is now known as oniichan (~mrtux@unaffiliated/mrtux)
05:51:20 Join st4rl [0] (~4636ac07@www.haxx.se)
05:51:58st4rlCan someone help me with my iPod Video 80GB?
05:52:22[Saint]Only if you ask a question first.
05:52:59st4rlIs it normal that my iPod is slown when I listen to music with the EQ on?
05:53:26st4rl*slow
05:53:36[Saint]Yes. If you have all 10 bands applied.
05:53:58[Saint]The CPU in the iPod 5G isn't particularly powerful, at all.
05:54:45[Saint]It is advisable to use as little bands as possible in the EQ, or, just use the Bass/Trebel settings.
05:55:11st4rlok thanks for your help
05:55:33[Saint]Some targets are perfectly capable of realtime playback with all 10 bands of the EQ applied. The 5/5.5G iPod isn't one of those.
05:55:38[Saint]Not a problem.
05:56:02 Nick oniichan is now known as mrtux (~mrtux@unaffiliated/mrtux)
05:56:39[Saint]Other effects will also have an impact on CPU usage.
05:57:02[Saint]Dithering, timestretch, etc.
05:59:18[Saint]The iPod 5/5.5G (and other, similar targets, like the 4G/Color/Photo, and Nano1G) is capable of realtime playback of MP3@320 with all 10 bands of the EQ applied according to my tests, but that is with no other effects enabled, and it is only *just* capable of it.
05:59:38[Saint]The UI suffers quite dramatically at times.
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06:49:16JdGordon[Saint]: the ping before? shold i be reading the previous log or saratoga asnwered you?
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08:05:28profus2good morning everybody,
08:05:55profus2is this the place to ask for help with regard to ATA -2 Error on sansa clip+ ?
08:06:46profus2if so, I would be grateful for any hints/tips how to solve this problem, thank you
08:07:12profus2btw: done some reading and searching already, but did not find anything useful
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09:57:04 Join trollin420 [0] (~chatzilla@user-0c6s742.cable.mindspring.com)
09:58:19trollin420any body there need help with rockbox please
09:58:46coppertrollin420: ask your question, if someone knows the answer, they'll reply, now or later
09:59:34 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
10:00
10:00:09trollin420man im just having an issue on occasion. I have rockbox on a new ipod classic that I got back in march and ill be listenin to some music and rockbox just freezes up and sends a really loud hum into my headphone
10:00:31 Join lebellium [0] (~chatzilla@212.194.176.149)
10:01:01trollin420it really can be annoyin lol vibin to some tunes and it just starts this loud hum and u have to hard reset it each time
10:02:08 Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de)
10:02:26coppertrollin420: how did you install Rockbox on your iPod Classic?
10:06:07trollin420oh man let me think there was manual and automatic way right
10:06:34trollin420oh hey i remember
10:06:39trollin420with itunes
10:06:55coppertrollin420: you install *Rockbox* with iTunes?
10:06:58copperinstalled*
10:07:01trollin420yes
10:07:11copperHmmm, no you didn't.
10:07:15trollin420just comin back to me lol this was like 3 months
10:07:36trollin420i did man wtf
10:07:38copperiTunes is Apple software, and you can't install Rockbox with iTunes.
10:07:55trollin420i got the driver from there copper
10:08:07coppertrollin420: did you install http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmCORE ?
10:09:17trollin420oh the emcore was with itunes
10:09:32copperwhat?
10:09:33trollin420thats what i was thinking
10:10:01trollin420from here http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmCORE_Installation/iPodClassic/DFUiTunes
10:10:53copperok, I was trying to determine if your iPod was indeed an iPod Classic
10:10:56 Join kaputnik [0] (~kaputnik@port-92-206-82-140.dynamic.qsc.de)
10:11:11copperand not an older iPod (people often confuse them)
10:11:45coppertrollin420: try installing the latest Rockbox build: http://build.rockbox.org/data/rockbox-ipod6g.zip
10:12:12trollin420has a new one came out since march cuz thats about when i installed everything?
10:12:34copperno but you didn't say if you bought it first hand or second hand
10:13:07copperand the Rockbox builds and procedures are very different for the Classic and older iPods
10:13:13trollin420brand new first hand
10:13:32coppernote that for now, the iPod Classic port of Rockbox is labeled "unusable"
10:13:37trollin420its the newest 160 gb
10:13:41copperyup
10:14:20copperto install the latest build, download the zip file that I linked to
10:14:24trollin420unusable in what exact way could u elaborate? with freezing and what not on the latest generation ipods
10:14:45copperconnect the iPod via USB, mount the hard drive, and unpack the zip file at the root of the mounted HDD
10:15:09coppertrollin420: "unusable" is a Rockbox label, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's actually unusable
10:15:18copperit just means they don't want to advertise its use
10:15:28copperbecause there are still some problems to overcome
10:15:50Zagorit says right on the front page "Work has begun on porting Rockbox to these players, but much remains before they are usable"
10:16:10trollin420oh have you heard of issues like that im having with it getting hosed up and sending a hum through the headphones
10:16:19coppernot me
10:16:38trollin420i have rockbox 3.13 already i remember that much
10:16:47copperthat's not possible
10:17:04copperrockbox 3.13 is the stable version for "usable" devices, and the Classic isn't one of them
10:17:48trollin420oh lol well whats the latest classic build when was that released?
10:17:58trollin420thats the one i should have
10:17:59[Saint]there never was one
10:18:25[Saint]There has never been any release for the Classic.
10:19:07Zagoronly development builds
10:19:28[Saint]System->Rockbob Info will tell you what version you're running.
10:19:37[Saint]*Rockbox, even. :)
10:20:03trollin420thanks saint its probably the ipod photo or whatever im not technically sound with this stuff
10:20:10[Saint]emCORE will also display the version number briefly during boot. But that can be hard to catch.
10:20:19trollin420lets see here
10:20:42[Saint]If it has emCORE, its definitely not the Photo/4G
10:21:16[Saint]It could only be one of two devices in that case. And I'm fairly sure you'd know if it was a Nano 2G
10:21:50trollin420160 gb classic
10:22:20[Saint]You can get the latest build from this link at all times: http://build.rockbox.org/data/rockbox-ipod6g.zip
10:22:22trollin420r31516-120101
10:22:35[Saint]Yeah, that build is fairly old.
10:22:36 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
10:22:44copperyou're using the build that emCORE distributes
10:22:48copperit's 18 months old
10:22:50trollin420oh really
10:22:52[Saint]The link above will always point to the current development build.
10:22:57copperfrom january first, 2012
10:23:09[Saint]copper: ah, indeed. Good catch.
10:23:14[Saint]That build is *ancient*.
10:23:45[Saint]There has been many improvements for the Classic since then.
10:23:53trollin420is it a pain in the ass to upgrade cuz before i had to use my neighbors pc to install emcore and rockbox my pc wouldnt recognize the dfu driver and shit
10:24:03Zagortrollin420: the 120101 part is the date of the build
10:24:06coppertrollin420: that's no longer required
10:24:12gevaertsYou don't need dfu to *upgrade*
10:24:12coppersince emcore is already installed
10:24:15[Saint]No. Simply extract the .zip from the link I gave above to the root of the device.
10:24:17[Saint]that is all.
10:24:34[Saint]then after you disconnect USB it will prompt to reboot, reboot, and you're updated.
10:24:43coppertrollin420: plug the iPod into a USB port of your PC and mount it like a USB HDD
10:24:48trollin420awesome it all my playlists and files will seamlessly integrate with the new rockbox version?
10:24:55[Saint]Yes.
10:25:01trollin420great news
10:25:14trollin420maybe it will stop freezing then im hoping
10:25:20[Saint]There will also be a reasonable increase in battery life.
10:25:33Zagormaybe you'll get new fascinating bugs instead ;-)
10:25:34copperand a 10 band EQ!
10:25:36[Saint]But the "Fat Classic" has such a huge battery anyway it is kinda hard to noticed.
10:25:47copper[Saint]: he likely has the thin model
10:25:58copperi.e. the latest one
10:26:07coppersince he bought it new in march
10:26:11[Saint]AH. Yeah. I always assume the Fat Classic when I hear 160GB.
10:26:25trollin420lol the humming bug with highly sensitive earbuds loud ass shit in your ear hopefully this will fix that
10:26:30*[Saint] <3 the CEATA 160GB "Fat"
10:27:07[Saint]Using it right now actually.
10:27:17coppertrollin420: what OS are you running? Windows?
10:27:39copperLinux? OS X?
10:28:09trollin420windows
10:28:28copperthen plug your iPod via USB, it'll show as a regular external hard drive
10:28:49copperunpack the zip file at the root of that hard drive
10:28:56copperdo you understand "root"?
10:29:08trollin420yes root directory
10:29:11copperok
10:29:36copperwhatever unpacking software you use, tell it to overwrite existing files
10:29:53copperdon't worry, your settings and playlists won't be overwritten
10:29:56trollin420oh i was just gona cut and paste it
10:31:02[Saint]The only major issue with the recent builds is that your iPod /might/ not mount. But you can always (hopefully) mount the device by booting into the emCORE main menu (hold any key during boot if you have fastboot enabled), then select the Tools->Run Rockbox Fallback Image menu item.
10:31:13copperI guess that's ok too, just tell Windows Explorer to overwrite files
10:31:27[Saint]Its best not to cut and paste.
10:31:42[Saint]extract to destination ensures everything gets updated correctly.
10:31:57trollin420ok ill extract thats cool
10:32:09[Saint]user error here can make interesting things happen. best to just avoid it and extract to destination.
10:32:22[Saint]Rockbox Utility is also capable of updating the Classic.
10:32:26 Quit onder` (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
10:32:28[Saint]You may want to use that instead.
10:33:09[Saint](in the future, whatever. it can backup the current install and upgrade to the latest)
10:35:04[Saint]Do let someone here know if updating doesn't fix you issue, though.
10:35:15trollin420277d358 130618
10:35:23trollin420is that the latest then?
10:35:51[Saint]If you downloading it from the link I gave you, then, yes.
10:35:59copperlook at the date
10:36:03trollin420k yea i did
10:36:07copperyymmdd
10:36:20copperi.e. june 18, 2013
10:36:38 Join onder` [0] (~onder@24.244.89.228)
10:37:11trollin420wait i thought it was from january 2012 the latest or is that emcore lol confused
10:37:21[Saint]I think the hash is the most interesting part.
10:37:48[Saint]there can be several builds a day with the same date. But only one with each hash. http://www.rockbox.org/since-release.html
10:38:53 Quit kaputnik (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
10:38:59trollin420shit i get it i had the january 2012 lol
10:39:19[Saint]That's the version emCORE installs.
10:39:27[Saint]So, I suppose it has never been updated.
10:40:34trollin420oh so emcore hasnt been updated for the classic or has never had a version specifically for the classic... tryna understand
10:41:18[Saint]There hasn't been an update for emCORE for the Classic since the version you have installed, no.
10:41:50trollin420one more thing um the sound settings is that all defaults now?
10:41:57[Saint]No.
10:42:04[Saint]Your settings are all still there.
10:42:48trollin420nice thanks saint
10:42:56[Saint]updating doesn't replace or remove any config files.
10:43:13[Saint]or user data
10:44:43[Saint]In future you might want to look at http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/RockboxUtility
10:45:29trollin420ok
10:45:43[Saint]Its a graphical tool capable of performing a range of tasks. Updating, backup, restore, them installation/removal, etc.
10:45:56[Saint]*theme installation
10:46:32[Saint]As well as the font set and game files for Rockdoom.
10:47:00[Saint]and voice files and talk clips if TTS is your thing.
10:47:56coppertext-to-speech*
10:48:24[Saint]The only thing it can't handle is the installation/removal of emCORE.
10:53:45trollin420hey is there a way to expand the album art full screen
10:59:05coppertrollin420: you can change the theme
10:59:16copperhttp://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?target=ipodvideo
10:59:46trollin420oh ok that could make the album art larger your saying?
11:00
11:03:13copperthe size of the artwork depends on the theme
11:03:18 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
11:10:15copperto install a theme, do like with a rockbox build archive: extract the zip file in the root directory of your iPod
11:10:31 Quit pystar89 (Read error: Operation timed out)
11:12:06trollin420thanks found another theme to try
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11:20:07copperaaaaw
11:20:09copper"Note: You can only use a %format string for formatting the title of a track, it cannot be used for formatting within the album hierarchy"
11:20:15copperthat's too bad :(
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14:12:56fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision c57b37a, 217 builds, 18 clients.
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14:20:56fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 480 seconds.
14:20:56fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision c57b37a result: All green
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17:54:46lebelliumhttp://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive//rockbox-archive-2013-06/0017.shtml
17:54:57lebelliumI don't know why the R0 was added to unusable
17:55:02lebelliumit was only unstable at first
17:55:56lebelliumand there is no reason for this "downgrade"
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18:13:39saratogashould i reduce the number of EQ bands on slower targets?
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18:13:52saratogaseems to be a regular problem for users of older devices
18:15:00saratogai love it when people post patches for ports to devices i've never even heard of :)
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18:27:48lebelliumsaratoga: are you talking about the YP-Z5?
18:28:07saratogayeah
18:29:38lebelliumthe Z5 is the first real iPod Nano killer, released in Z5. The UI has been designed by Paul Mercer who also designed the UI of the 1st iPod. It sold over 1 million units and was the 1st Samsung player to get a real community with its own forum etc.
18:29:43lebelliumreleased in 2006*
18:31:15DarthFrogIs RockboxUtility useful with an Ipod Classic 7th gen?
18:34:07saratogait won't install emcore if thats what you mean
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18:37:13DarthFrogNo, just generally. I have already installed emCore and Rockbox on it.
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18:40:00saratogai think everything else will work with the 6/7g
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18:40:34DarthFrogthanks. I'm using it to update Rockbox on the Ipod now.
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19:52:29dunpealHi. I just installed Rockbox. I have a large root directory with lots of subdirectories containing MP3 files. Can I turn that whole directory into a playlist that can can be stopped and resumed?
19:58:44gevaertsYes. You can add the directory to the playlist (recursively)
19:58:55gevaertsThat's somewhere in the context menu
19:58:56dunpealgevaerts: thanks! that does work.
19:59:02dunpealyes, INSERT
19:59:11dunpealanother question though: what should I do with audiobooks?
19:59:21gevaertsListen to them? :)
19:59:33dunpealThat makes sense ;) Should I just create a playlist for them?
19:59:53gevaertsI do that, yes. I also use bookmarking for those
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20:00:13gevaertsWell, I use bookmarking for everything, and ignore the bookmark files for non-audiobook-like stuff
20:01:40dunpealgevaerts: do multiple playlists save their position?
20:01:57dunpeali.e. can I have multiple playlists that are resumable from the point I last stopped?
20:03:05gevaertsPlaylists as such don't do that, but bookmarks do
20:03:19gevaertsI'd recommend reading the chapter on bookmarks in the manual
20:03:39coppersaratoga: seems like PortalPlayer iPods are too slow too
20:03:40gevaertsBasically a bookmark is a playlist+position (and past positions) combination
20:03:54dunpealgevaerts: that sounds good, actually
20:04:31gevaertsYou can add bookmarks manually, or you can tell rockbox to automatically bookmark on stop
20:04:56gevaertsAnd then, if you enable the recent bookmarks feature, you can browse recent bookmarks right from the main menu
20:07:26dunpealthis is awesome
20:08:54dunpealI love Rockbox
20:10:32dunpealgevaerts: does rockbox have an application / feature to do announced timer?
20:10:43dunpealbasically, I want to be able to set it to alert me in N minutes
20:10:51gevaertsHmm, no
20:11:12gevaertsYou could abuse the sleep timer for that, but stopping playback is a weird kind of signal
20:11:18saratogahow is the 10 band EQ on Coldfire?
20:12:47dunpealgevaerts: damn, there's a chess clock in plugins!!!
20:13:07dunpealthe chess clock actually does it, but it doesn't provide announcements
20:13:23*gevaerts remembers finding a bug in that a while ago :)
20:16:24dunpealgevaerts: I can just write / hack it on my own... it's in Java, right?
20:17:12gevaertsC
20:21:30saratogai'm tempted to make the 10 band EQ ARM >=v5E and MIPS only
20:22:23gevaertssaratoga: does a parametric EQ with more than five bands actually make sense at all?
20:24:12saratogano its literally pointless
20:24:39coppernot entirely, IMO
20:24:44coppermy desktop EQ has ten bands
20:25:02gevaertscopper: EQ or parametric EQ?
20:25:03saratogayeah but its probably not parametric
20:25:08bertrikwell then we need to go to eleven
20:25:14copperhaving ten bands on Rockbox allows me to just copy the desktop settings without having to figure out how to properly convert 10 bands into 5 bands
20:25:37saratogait also massively increases the battery draw
20:25:40gevaertsTechnically we could have a plugin to help with that
20:25:46copperthat would be nice
20:26:39saratogausually parametric EQs are 3 or 5 band, while non-parametric are 10 or 21 band
20:26:44copperor even just a chapter in the documentation on how to do that
20:26:48saratogasince you need a lot more bands if you can't adjust their width
20:27:22coppermaybe a web form where I could fill in the 10 band values, and it would output 5 band values
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20:28:18coppersaratoga: not parametric indeed
20:28:34saratogaa real-time plot of the EQ response in rockbox would be nice
20:28:37*gevaerts isn't sure how tricky such a convertor would be
20:28:46gevaertsBut yes, a plot would definitely help
20:29:32copperfor the Clip+, before the 10 band EQ patch, I ran RMAA every time I changed a value, to see how it would match my 10 band EQ
20:29:36coppervery cumbersome
20:29:41copperlots of trial and error
20:31:32dunpealgevaerts: I have to save a playlist before I bookmark it, right?
20:31:38gevaertsNo
20:32:19dunpealyou mean, I can have a per-directory bookmark
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20:32:35dunpealbut if a book consists of multiple subdirectories
20:33:02gevaertsA new bookmark file corresponds to your current dynamic playlist
20:33:57dunpealsure, but I can only have one dynamic playlist at a time, no?
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20:34:23dunpealI should probably just RTFM :)
20:34:29gevaertsYes, but a bookmark essentially saves that to disk
20:35:21dunpealWhat's a better player for Rockbox, incidentally? Clip Zip, or Clip+?
20:35:46funmanboth are the best
20:35:48dunpealactually, in general, what's a great player for Rockbox? I care about battery life
20:36:00funmanzip or +
20:36:12dunpealI like them a lot, only problem is battery life is not great
20:36:40gevaertsiaudio M5L
20:36:40dunpealI think it's ~15 hours for a fresh one, and it degrades pretty fast, at least has for me in the past with stock firmware
20:36:47gevaertsGood luck finding one though
20:37:45gevaertsI believe the fuze+ gets around 30 hours these days
20:38:01dunpealFuze has better battery life, but unfortunately it has this weird connector
20:38:09bertrikbut it has a horrible touch interface last I remember
20:38:17dunpealwow, 30 hours. I have Fuze+ too, the touch interface is terrible
20:38:27dunpealbertrik: yup, but doesn't Rockbox take care of that?
20:39:06bertriknot sure, I don't think so
20:39:11dunpealin general, stock firmware for Fuze+ is even more terrible than Sandisk's usually low standards
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20:39:34dunpealaccording to the homepage, Fuze+ is "Unstable"
20:40:25dunpealregular Fuzes are working though. you can't get a new one cheaply, but I have a few old ones.
20:42:19bertrikpossibly the fuze is actually the nicest sansa player, decent screen, AMS chipset, not too big/heavy
20:44:10bertrikfuze v2 seems to have 20+ hours runtime
20:45:22dunpealright, too bad they "upgraded" it to the horrible Fuze+
20:46:01dunpealI don't think anyone likes the Fuze+... right now it's at the same price point of the Clip+, which is so much worse hardware-wise
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20:55:23copperRockbox works great with the Fuze+
20:55:39coppervery usable, even with the touch pad
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20:57:33dunpealgoing to try that. nothing to lose; I haven't touched it since purchase :)
20:58:01dunpealit's just sitting there, a brand new Fuze+ that hasn't been turned on since purchase
20:58:10lebellium"I don't think anyone likes the Fuze+." That's what I thought before discussing here with pamaury and copper ahaha
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21:00:07dunpealI actually agree with bertrik. even if RB works perfectly, Fuze+ is so much more bulky than Fuze 2
21:00:33dunpealFuze 2 is still the best player all around, only advantage of Fuze+ is the connector is standard micro USB
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21:02:31copperbulky??
21:02:47copperthe Fuze+ is smaller than an iPod Classic, and much more light-weight
21:03:02copperyou don't feel it sitting in your pocket
21:03:29copperit's very light
21:03:58dunpealit's all relative :) Fuze+ isn't huge, but it's larger than Fuze 2, which for me is the ideal size.
21:04:04amayeri had both a fuze+ and a iclassic and i prefer the classic. i think its the touchpad that puts me off
21:04:11copper64 grams
21:04:44coppervs 140 grams for the iPod Classic
21:05:03copperanything smaller is hard to use for me
21:05:15coppercan't get a good grip on the Clip+
21:05:25copperit's like a child's toy
21:05:46coppera small child*
21:06:31copperthe Classic is laggy because of its HDD, which needs to be spun up whenever you access the filesystem
21:08:15copperalso, the portrait mode display on the Fuze+ is a lot more convenient than the landscape mode of the Fuze v2
21:08:47copperand usability of the touch pad on the Fuze+ is fine with Rockbox
21:08:54copperit's nothing like the OF
21:09:16copperthe page up / page down bindings are very useful when browsing large collections
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21:29:08dunpealIt seems there are individual manuals for each player model. As an RB newbie, is there a "general" manual I should read?
21:29:36dunpealOr do I just read the one for my model, and assume all manuals are the same + small player-specific delta.
21:29:43bertrikthe latter
21:30:23dunpealthanks
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21:54:19wodzpamaury: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,33951.msg219609/topicseen.html#msg219609
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22:05:15lorenzo92dunpeal: yp-r0 battery life is about 25 hrs with rockbox
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