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#rockbox log for 2013-09-26

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12:48:41wodzZagor: Could you look at the FS issue? it seems that something adds bunch of empty lines to the patches. I thought it was db corruption but it seems to be more systematic
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13:23:25fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision f37f339, 223 builds, 18 clients.
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13:27:52webguest1100hi. first installation of rockbox on a sansa clip zip. it seems rockbox created a new directory structure and moved the old directories in a folder named ##MUSIC#. can I safely remove this and the folder ##PORT#?
13:28:16[Saint]Rockbox didn't move anything.
13:28:25[Saint]Those directories were already there.
13:28:46[Saint]You can delete them, if you wish, but the OF will recreate them whenever you boot it.
13:29:59webguest1100I see. before I installed rockbox I only saw these folders: Audiobooks, Music, Playlists, Podcasts, Service. There wasn't a directory like AUDIBLE in the root of the drive
13:30:25stoyan[Saint]: you're wrong. after the install I had those two too. they are not from the OF
13:30:38 Join liar [0] (~liar@83.175.90.24)
13:30:43stoyansame device
13:31:04[Saint]Its because you changed the way the drive presents itself in order to install Rockbox.
13:31:11[Saint]Rockbox doesn;t create these directories.
13:31:34stoyanthen is some part of the install process
13:31:46[Saint]No, it isn't.
13:31:54[Saint]It is created by the OF. Not Rockbox.
13:32:45stoyanalright
13:33:03webguest1100I didn't change anything. usb connection method is msc and I just used the rockbox utility to install rockbox
13:33:41webguest1100I just can say that all these uppercase directory names didn't exist on the device before I installed rockbox.
13:33:57[Saint]They did exist, they just weren't presented to you.
13:34:10fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 645 seconds.
13:35:11[Saint]Anyhoo, you can remove them all you want, but they'll be recreated. The only other way to deal with them is to mark them as hidden and set the file browser to only show "suported" files.
13:35:13gevaertsTo clarify, the OF has some magic USB code to hide those directories on the fly
13:35:16stoyanI got you
13:36:09[Saint]If you mark them as hidden, they'll get out of your hair.
13:36:39webguest1100mark them hidden via a windows file explorer or internally?
13:37:33[Saint]Rockbox has no way to do this, so, WIndows, yes.
13:38:20webguest1100ok, thanks. I'll try that
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13:54:29lebelliumPamaury: On the E360 with my Westone UM3x I hear no sound or almost no sound from -100dB to -75dB and my usual volume level is -30dB vs -45dB on Clip Zip and max volume is much higher on Clip Zip than on E360. Also, whatever OF or Rockbox, the E360 sound is very "cold" compared to all my other players, including those with the same STMP3780 chip like Fuze+
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13:57:06copperwhat does "cold" mean?
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14:00:41lebelliumno mid or bass.
14:01:01lebelliumusing no EQ
14:01:11copperemphasised treble?
14:01:17copperthat would be "bright"
14:01:44coppermaybe high output impedance issue with your IEMs?
14:02:13copperthat's the sony DAP, right?
14:03:39copperhmmm, at 56 ohms, that's rather unlikely
14:04:04copperthey're not the same models, but all the sony DAPs measured on that page are about 3Ω http://monoadc.blog64.fc2.com/blog-entry-99.html
14:04:08fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #64 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/64 : 3Remove svn id. by Torne Wuff (changes/64/64/1)
14:04:47[Saint]silly fs-bluebot
14:04:52[Saint]...go hide in shame.
14:04:55copperlebellium: run RMAA unloaded, and loaded with your IEMs, to make sure
14:04:56[Saint]bad ot, bad!
14:05:01[Saint]*bot
14:05:55copperoutput impedance on its own is relatively easy to measure as well, with just headphones and a stereo splitter cable (like for running RMAA loaded)
14:06:50copperhmmm
14:07:06copperlow max volume does sound like a stupidly high output impedance
14:07:19copperor it could just be the french / EU volume cap
14:07:57copperfor that, I'd use a multimeter
14:08:04copperto measure the max voltage
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14:08:32copperif the voltage is normal or high (> 0.5V), then it's most likely very high output impedance
14:08:56copperwhich would show as very low voltage when loaded with your IEMs (obviously)
14:10:37lebelliumcopper: I don't have time to loose with those things honestly :) For the max volume I just plugged Creative EP630 and put max volume (not in my ears of course; but as "speakers"). Now I remember there is an hardware volume cap on European models while most manufacturers use a software cap
14:11:27*[Saint] wonders why all his id3 tags are suddenly utf16
14:11:48copperand those are loud?
14:12:05copperer: those are loud, and your Westones are not?
14:12:25[Saint]Oh, gah...something changed my tags from 2.4 to 2.4, where utf8 apparently isn't an option...hmmm.
14:12:42 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
14:12:45[Saint]*2.4 to 2.3
14:14:16copperhmmm, in any case, the Westones should be louder than the Creatives
14:14:36copperthe westones having higher sensitivity and higher impedance
14:16:27lebelliumcopper: I just don't take the risk to put max volume with my UM3x. I prefer doing that with cheap bad earphones. UM3x are 124dB/56Ohms vs 106dB and I don't know what impedance for the EP630
14:17:54copper16Ω
14:18:36copperlebellium: but if you're asking in the interest of Rockbox development on the E360, running RMAA would be helpful
14:20:01pamaurylebellium: the sound parameters of the E360 are exactly the same as on the fuze+
14:24:56pamaurywhat about the OF ?
14:25:39lebelliumok looks like you're right. I just tried with a Bose QC15 and there is no difference between the E360 and the Fuze+. It's just a bit weird that the E360 is my only player unable to drive the UM3x...
14:26:14copperthe Bose Q15 are immune to output impedance problems
14:26:31pamauryI need to fix the date/time of the E360 and E370
14:27:18copperlebellium: just to be clear, the E360 is less loud than the Fuze+ with your Creative IEMs?
14:27:40 Quit cmhobbs (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
14:28:03lebelliumlet me check
14:28:17copperthis could be cleared up in 5 minutes by just measuring the thing
14:29:11lebelliumwith the EP630 the Fuze+ is much louder than the E360 at max volume
14:29:40lebelliumthat's this stupid hardware volume cap
14:30:33lebelliumpamaury: don't forget the colors too^^
14:31:46copperlebellium: it's not a volume cap if there's no difference with the Bose QC15s
14:31:58lebelliumI did not say that
14:32:14lebelliumfor the Bose I was talking about the sound signature
14:32:47lebelliumwith the bose there is as much bass and mid on the E360 as on the Fuze+
14:33:30pamaurylebellium: can you compare OF and RB on the E360 ? That would just end the discussion
14:33:33copperwhat about volume?
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14:38:04lebelliumpamaury: there is no difference between OF and RB in term of sound signature and volume. For me the discussion is over since I found out and said that the problem only occurs with my UM3x. I don't know why copper wants to discussion further ;)
14:38:14lebelliumdiscuss*
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14:43:26pamauryok thanks
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14:48:05lebelliumpamaury: I don't know if it's part of the keymapping or if it's another issue but I also noticed that if I turn on the player while the hold switch is ON, it actually boots Rockbox and only turns off the screen. On other rockboxed players with hardware hold switch like Sansa E200 it displays "Key LOCKED, system shutdown" but won't start Rockbox.
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14:52:53pamauryyeah, that's probably handled in the bootloader, I didn't write the code yet
14:53:24copperlebellium: because if it's an output impedance issue, people would do well to avoid that DAP
14:53:28[Saint]How does one turn a device on with a HW hold switched engaded?
14:53:33[Saint]...braindead HW.
14:53:59copperNexus 7 + Shure SE425: http://outpost.fr/rmaa/Nexus7-Shure_SE425/fr.png
14:54:18copperkinda looks like what you described
14:54:22pamaury[Saint]: I admit on this device it is wired strangely, the hold button is completely handled in software
14:54:51[Saint]Oh dear.
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14:55:50[Saint]FWIW, the iPod Classic is kinda braindead as well...but in a slightly more hilarious way.
14:56:18[Saint]You can turn it on, by turning the hold switch on, when the device is off...so it boots, and immediately wipes your config.cfg. :)
14:57:45copperuh?
14:57:54copperwipes your config.cfg?
14:58:19[Saint]Yes, that's what booting with hold on does.
14:58:43[Saint]But, its supposed to be "boot, with hold off, and then very quickly engage hold"
14:59:06[Saint]...a device that boots when hold is turned on, when the device was off, makes this a bit of a trap.
15:00
15:00:00pamauryyeah, on some devices putting hold on physically makes it boot
15:00:10[Saint]So, if your iPod Classic ever ends up booted, with default settings and the hold switch engaged...you know what happened.
15:02:28[Saint]copper: it seems like a weird thing to do, I know, but its a safety feature to gaurd against config weirdness.
15:02:46[Saint]It just so happens that it makes a nice trap for the few targets that boot when hold is engaged.
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16:50:02fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 94f2bc7, 223 builds, 18 clients.
16:50:23pamaurythis is very puzzling, I cannot make the lcd controller work as expected on E370, I have to use a workaround but I don't understand why. Furthermore it works perfectly on all the other imx233 devices
16:58:06fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 483 seconds.
16:58:07lebelliumthanks for the fix pamaury :)
17:00
17:01:38pamaurytime fix on rail
17:02:16fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 0897794, 223 builds, 18 clients.
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17:07:09lebelliumhttp://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8937/j040.jpg :)
17:08:04pamaurywhat is the middle player ?
17:08:21lebelliumSamsung YP-R0
17:08:39pamauryI really like the E360, I think it's a very good player, nice build quality, a bit heavy and fits nicely in the hand, very good screen
17:08:49pamauryphysical buttons and hold
17:08:57pamaurycompared to the E370 which is very bad
17:11:13fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 537 seconds.
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17:12:14lebelliumI agree for the physical buttons and great size but build quality... it's cheap plastic which scratches easily. Have a look at the YP-R0. That's good build quality :)
17:12:36 Quit mortalis (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
17:14:20pamauryyeah the screen scratches easily. But still compared to the E370 that's way better
17:15:59lebelliumI can imagine. And 128x160 vs 240x320 for almost the same size
17:17:26pamauryyeah, that's the appaling part
17:18:39lebellium"The following players are handled: E340, E360, E440, E440K?, S540, BB."
17:18:47lebelliumdid you mean E350 instead of E360?
17:19:35pamauryno, E360. All these players seems to share a common or very close firmware
17:19:58lebelliumoh ok
17:20:25lebelliumand E370 has a different firmware?
17:22:42pamauryyes
17:22:56pamaurybut it's quite close too
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17:36:44SparFuxHello. I have an iPad Wifi +3G (manual says so), which has a model number A1219 printed on its back. Which kind is it to choose on http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml ?
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17:37:44gevaertsSparFux: none of them. Rockbox doesn't run on ipads
17:37:55SparFuxgevaerts: ah, I see. thx.
17:39:43pamaurybluebrother: ping
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17:48:07pamaurythinking about it, this "reset settings on hold" behaviour has a big downside: you cannot use the alarm clock properly
17:48:14pamauryor you have to disengage hold
17:51:45pamaurylebellium: I'm uploading a new bootloader for the e360 with the fix for hold behaviour
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17:52:51fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 6dcd465, 223 builds, 19 clients.
17:54:03lebelliumgreat, thank you
17:55:52pamaurylink is on the wiki
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18:00:21fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 450 seconds.
18:02:35fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 7a828ac, 223 builds, 19 clients.
18:05:09lebelliumpamaury: ok it works :)
18:05:21pamaurythanks for the test
18:07:08lebelliummaybe it would be useful to add versionning to your rockbox firmwares/bootloaders?
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18:09:42pamauryI should have tagged it as V1, that's right
18:09:54fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 440 seconds.
18:11:30pamaurygevaerts: do you remember what is the trick to display a particular version in the bootloader when tagging a bootloader as V1 for example ?
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18:17:56pamauryI think it is make VERSION=V1, it that okay ?
18:19:11pamaurylebellium: what do you think should be the behaviour about hold and usb mode ?
18:19:25pamauryI think it should boot in usb mode if hold is on, but power down after
18:25:39gevaertsSomething lika that IIRC, yesd
18:27:48lebelliumpamaury: I think so. But I see there is no commun rule for that. My E200 displays the keylock message then powers down while my H320 connects in bootloader USB mode, whatever hold ON or OFF
18:36:09lebelliumpamaury: also, I don't know if that's bootloader or keymapping related but I think that short press on the power button starts Rockbox and long press starts OF is not a good idea. I would only use long press to power on, nothing for short press and use another key to start the OF
18:37:02pamauryhum, long press should boot to rockbox too
18:37:19pamaurythat's why happen on my device
18:37:47lebelliumI just checked again, a long press on play/pause start OF and not rockbox
18:38:02pamauryah that's normal, play/pause is not power
18:38:13pamauryany key except power will boot to OF
18:38:29pamaurybut if you touch it fast enough, it will be missed by the bootloader and boot to the OF
18:40:06lebelliumOh ok I see. A short press on any key starts Rockbox hum
18:42:16pamaurythe issue is that any key press will power the device, I cannot change this. When booting it will read the keys: if any key other than power is pressed, it goes to OF. But there is a slight delay between the first key press and the check, I cannot change that either
18:42:57pamauryso the rule is actually "long press any key other than power to boot to the OF"
18:44:07lebelliumArf, that's unfortunate. Why is different from the other targets? But fortunately there is the hold switch to avoid unwanted power on in the pocket
18:44:15lebelliumis it*
18:44:39pamaurybecause reading which button is pressed is not trivial
18:45:19pamauryI could change it but that's more work if you want something like "press back to boot to OF"
18:45:44pamauryand not some many players actually boot on any key press
18:46:06pamaury*not so many
18:46:32pamaurywhat would you suggest if you could choose how to boot to the OF ?
18:49:08lebelliumIf that was possible, I would do like: long press on play/pause starts Rockbox, long press on "option/pwr off" turns off the device and like on Sansa: left + play/pause or volume down + play/pause starts the OF
18:50:50pamaurylong press on "option/pwr off" => that's already the case
18:50:59lebelliumyes yes :)
18:51:08pamauryI cannot detect key combination, that's physically impossible
18:51:44pamauryI can only detect option/pwr off + something
18:52:00pamauryand even this I'm not 100% sure
18:52:10pamaurylet me check
18:53:29lebelliumthen why not long press on back or volume down starts OF.
18:53:30pamauryok I can detect option/pwr off + something else
18:54:48pamauryok, i'll try this
18:55:10lebelliumthe key is not really important I think. What would be useful is to avoid short presses to boots something and to avoid any key to boots up.
18:55:44pamaurythere is already hold for this no ?
18:56:18lebelliumwell, that helps for sure. But how do you do on the E370 without hold switch? :)
18:56:46pamaurythat one is tricky but you can easily trigger a long press in a pocket too
18:58:07lebelliumwhat I propose is the ideal way of working, what I like and how it is on most rockboxed targets. But as you said, the hold switch helps so that's not really a high priority.
18:58:47pamauryso you suggest: any key press shorter than T (T = 1sec for example) doesn't boot, otherwise boot to rockbox except if the key is back or volume down ?
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18:59:46pamaurythere is another issue with the NWZ: you can really turn them off while in the OF :-/
18:59:55pamaury*cannot really
18:59:58pamauryyou need to reset them
19:00
19:00:03pamauryor plug usb
19:00:28lebelliumnot really, I rather suggest that only one key (play/pause is the most logical to me) boots to rockbox and only one other key or key combination boots to OF. And only long press in both cases
19:01:00pamauryhum, I would rather press power to boot !
19:01:24pamauryok so back boots OF and play/power boot RB
19:01:49lebelliumThere is no real power key on this device.
19:02:01pamaurywhat I call power is option/power off
19:02:16pamauryand that is one is physically different from the others
19:03:16 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
19:03:46lebelliumyes I know, but it's written "option" on it, and it only powers down in OF. Play/pause is used for power on. But that doesn't really matter, use this one to boot rockbox if you prefer
19:04:07lebelliumas long as it's only one key and long press, that's fine :)
19:04:27pamaurywe can have both boot to rockbox so that everyone is happy
19:04:44lebelliumGood solution :)
19:05:12pamaurybut Sony has a strange notion of "power off", because it doesn't power off, it only shutdown the screen
19:05:29lebelliumI know, we have the same issue on the Samsung YP-R0
19:05:42lebelliumYou're obliged to carry a paper clip with you to power it down after using OF
19:06:47lebelliumAt least on the Sony players it doesn't seem to eat up much energy
19:06:58lebelliumon the Samsung players, this sleep mode kills the battery life
19:07:38pamauryThere is also the case of usb and alarm to tackle: if USB is plugged I suggest we boot to bootloader usb mode except if back is pressed, then we boot to OF USB mode. Similarly on alarm. In all cases we ignore hold
19:08:49lebelliumSounds good to me
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20:07:57pamaurylebellium: you are giving me some work ! I found a bug and had to fix it because of you :p
20:11:44pamauryI think I'll drop the option/power off button because it doesn't work, the device doesn't like when the power button is pressed at boot time
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20:27:49pamaurylebellium: uploading new firmware
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20:39:32lebelliumpamaury: I'm sorry for giving you so much work but I'm sure it's worth it in the end :)
20:40:38pamauryit's uploaded, can you test it please ?.
20:43:13lebelliumyep
20:43:24lebelliumwhere's the download link?
20:43:42pamaurysame as before
20:44:32lebelliumok
20:45:16lebelliumhum
20:45:29lebelliumis it this one https://www.dropbox.com/s/95gvc9a5r401fyn/sonynwze360_1.0.0.firmware.sb ? Cause it says uploaded 3hrs ago
20:46:48lebelliumoops no
20:46:51pamauryno, this is the OF, you need the other one, the prebuilt one
20:47:06lebelliumyes, sorry, my mistake
21:00
21:01:21lebelliumpamaury: great! Much better now :) Just an issue with USB mode. If you plug the USB cable while the device is OFF with hold switch ON, it gets into a reboot loop. And if the hold switch is OFF, it seems to start Rockbox, not to enter in bootloader USB mode
21:01:48pamauryhum, that's not the behaviour I have here
21:02:14pamaurycan you check it again ?
21:02:30pamaurysometimes the hardware misdetect usb connection on boot
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21:04:05pamauryor maybe I uploaded the wrong version :-/
21:04:26lebelliumno, looks like that was the USB cable
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21:04:43pamauryok I prefer this :)
21:05:03pamauryso everything is okay now ?
21:05:17lebelliumok it works properly with another cable
21:05:23lebelliumeverything's OK
21:05:26lebelliumthank you :)
21:06:22pamaurythanks for testing
21:06:32pamaurydo you have a E370 or not ?
21:08:46lebelliumNope. It doesn't look very interesting according to what you said. If I buy another one, I think that would be rather a E400 series, 8 or 16GB as my E363 is only 4GB
21:08:51fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision b60712d, 223 builds, 19 clients.
21:10:35bluebrotherpamaury: sorry, been on a business trip the last couple of days and haven't been able to look into things
21:11:39pamauryok no problem, I have another question: how do you think we should handle devices like NZE-E360 which don't have a firmware upgrade available ? I have a tool to extract it from the device but how could we integrate it in RbUtil ?
21:12:37pamauryit needs SCSI vendor requests
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21:19:20pamaurygevaerts: : what is the procedure to upload bootloader release ? ask Zagor ?
21:19:28gevaertsYes :)
21:19:36pamauryZagor: ping
21:23:33bluebrotherpamaury: we already do custom SCSI commands (for retrieving the RAM size on Ipods, though since 64MB / 32MB versions now use the same binary this isn't necessary anymore)
21:23:57bluebrotherI'd also like to include time-sync support in Rockbox Utility, which kinda needs those as well
21:24:07bluebrotherit's again the time issue ...
21:24:54pamauryhow do handle the permission issues ? on linux a regular user cannot to that
21:25:26pamauryand for the firmware retrieving, do you think it's better to integrate it directly into the bootloader install path or provide a "extract firmware" menu ?
21:25:46pamauryextracting the firmware for safde storage has its uses
21:26:05bluebrotheryes, but when installing Rockbox on an Ipod / PP Sandisk player you need root permissions as well
21:26:18pamauryok
21:26:25bluebrotherso while this is a bit ugly I don't see a good way to do this otherwise. Plus, we already have this case.
21:26:59pamauryhow is SCSI handled in a cross platform way ? do we have a lib somewhere ?
21:27:42bluebrothernot yet.
21:28:36bluebrotherthere's ipodio-posix.c and ipodio-win32-scsi.c in the ipodpatcher sources
21:30:13bluebrotherputting those into a lib is somethings on my todo list as well :)
21:30:35pamaurymaybe i'll do it soon then, because I need it
21:31:27*bluebrother wouldn't mind :)
21:44:55pamauryhum, apparently I broke the fuze+ bootloader :(
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21:51:43pamauryweird, I broken the bootloader but not the main build
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23:14:41damarusamahoy
23:14:52damarusamacan you rotate the screen on the ipod nano 1st gen
23:20:31kugelpamaury: why press a button to boot rb (re: b60712d)?
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