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#rockbox log for 2013-09-27

00:01:12 Quit ender` (Quit: "I don't believe in aging," said the Knight. "Do enough of it, and you die."-- Simon R. Green: Casino Infernale)
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00:24:30pamaurykugel(logs): the sony nwz has no power button, any button boots up the device
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04:22:08uberushaximusHm, I've tried bridging the pins on my clipv1 and I can't access the disk
04:25:15uberushaximuswhen I do see flash, I only see 4mb
04:31:46[Saint]I won't even bother with asking why you thought you needed to do this, but since you seem to have ignored the massive red warning on the top of the wiki page I'll assume you know what you're doing and move on...
04:32:11uberushaximus:P
04:32:33uberushaximusI can tell you what symptoms I've been having otherwise
04:32:51[Saint]FWIW, I'm talking about the "IF YOU TRY THESE WHEN YOUR DEVICE IS NOT ACTUALLY BRICKED, YOU ARE RUNNING AN UNNECESSARY RISK OF DESTROYING YOUR PLAYER. If you think your device is bricked, please chat with us on IRC to confirm this is the case before pulling out your soldering iron. " section.
04:33:27[Saint]I have seen so many people abuse that page and needlessly destroy devices.
04:34:24uberushaximusNothing seems to have changed
04:34:27uberushaximus:)
04:36:27[Saint]Gah...ok...so, what made you think you needed to do this?
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07:12:02*[Saint] seems to be having an "overly descriptive forum post" day...
07:16:38[Saint]Hmmmmm...wha?
07:16:56[Saint]Why is the iPod Video's CPU frequency at 11289600
07:17:14[Saint]My understanding is that it runs at 24MHz, 30MHz, or 80MHz.
07:19:33[Saint](also, why is it that the iPod Video actually has a 24MHz configuration, but AFAIK this can only be accessed via the System -> Debug (Keep Out!) -> CPU frequency page by pressing Select...?)
07:33:29soapbuschel would be the one to ask about ipod CPU speeds IIRC, [Saint]
07:35:17*[Saint] cannot remember how to overclock/underclock the PPs.
07:35:45[Saint]I know I did previously have one running at 24MHz/100MHz (default is 24/80)
07:35:56[Saint]*30/80
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07:40:46[Saint]I mean...wouldn't that make the iPod Video's max CPU something like 11MHz?
07:42:34[Saint]If I go with what I know, my mind is telling me that it should be '#define CPU_FREQ 80000000'
07:45:01[Saint]soap: sorry, I didn't see your reply - there's a slight problem with that, though, I haven't seen buschel in many moons...
07:46:03[Saint]soap: you have a few of the PP iPods, no? I don't suppose you have any of the old under/overclocking patches floating around do you?
07:47:20[Saint]...hmmm, not that they would be valid anymore.
07:49:44[Saint]Hahahaha....gotta love comments like this buried in the CPU setup stuffs:
07:49:47[Saint]"/* what's this do? */"
07:57:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
07:59:43[Saint]Additionally, what is the difference between CPU_DEFAULT and CPU_NORMAL?
08:00
08:00:46 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@87-207-223-0.dynamic.chello.pl)
08:02:39wodz[Saint]: I don't know how general it is but according to my understanding CPU_DEFAULT is the default speed cpu is in after power-up (with PLL turned off). It is used on some players which can turn off PLL to save some power (coldfires only?), CPU_NORMAL is well normal speed rb configures clock to
08:03:37[Saint]the PPs can also turn off PLL, iiuc.
08:03:39[Saint]Also, thanks.
08:04:17[Saint]So its the "cpu fre we boot in until something takes over", if I were to /reaaaaaly/ simplify the description?
08:05:00wodzI guess this is not general rule as sometimes some rom code runs before we take over
08:06:15wodzfor example on rk27xx virgin boot gives you 12MHz clock BUT nand bootloader which runs before rb bootloader sets this clock to 200MHz
08:06:19[Saint]Right, pretty sure I have this worked out now.
08:07:27[Saint]I set it up so that I can comment out sections/uncomment sections and test to see how far I can go before stuff starts falling over.
08:07:55[Saint]I can now range from 15MHz to 120MHz, but I doubt that will be stable at all.
08:08:17[Saint]I'm going to give 24/100MHz a go first.
08:09:15[Saint]AFter that I may give 110MHz a go, but I really doubt it.
08:10:14wodz[Saint]: the NORMAL freq should be choosen such as most of your audio collection decode unboosted
08:11:07wodz[Saint]: So 30 vs 24 you may gain nothing depending on files you play.
08:11:32[Saint]~2mA
08:11:42[Saint]Its not much, but, its something.
08:12:04wodzyes unless your player starts to boost to keep the playback
08:12:18[Saint](that's ancient measurements, though, maybe this has increased or decreased by now...I can check)
08:12:35[Saint]The device shouldn't ever boost unless it needs to refill the buffer.
08:12:44[Saint]GUI boost is disabled, and its only playing flac.
08:13:15[Saint]SO I expect I could probably go lower than 24MHz, but the GUI will probably start to suffer much below that.
08:13:50wodzYou are not right. If you need 38.30MHz for realtime playback (vorbis_500.ogg according to our CodecPerformanceComparison) it will definitely boost
08:14:15wodz30MHz is quite good compromise
08:14:19[Saint]"and its only playing flac"
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08:15:22wodzah, right with flacs you can go lower probably
08:15:31[Saint]Flac needs something like 10MHz
08:15:41wodzlike 12 :-)
08:15:53[Saint]...did it get worse?
08:16:29[Saint]Oh, hmmmm, I see...right. 12MHz for flac8
08:16:37wodzhttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CodecPerformanceComparison#Portal_Player_40ARM7TDMI_41 says flac_5 is 11.50 flac_8 is 12.26
08:16:55[Saint]That was in 2010 though, I suspect we've gotten better since then.
08:17:03[Saint]One way to find out I guess.
08:17:10wodzfeel free to run benchmark and update the wiki
08:17:55wodzBTW. I think I start to understand how FTL on rk27xx is organized.
08:18:24[Saint]Prod TheSeven, he's some form of FTL mastermind.
08:18:37[Saint](and, a general mastermind as well)
08:19:07wodzyeah, I chatted with him and he redirected me to the code :P
08:19:52[Saint]Oh, :P
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08:36:42WaterAnyone know why I'd be getting really slow USB speeds (<1MB/s) on my e200v2 when I use a 32GB microSD, but an 8GB has normal transfer speed?
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09:21:08fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision c300c1b, 223 builds, 18 clients.
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13:54:47soap[Saint], buschel's patches for the 5th / 1stNano are still on the tracker, including extensive commentary as he tried each one, He. personally, was a strong proponent of running sub 30 and boosting as needed since his default playback "style" (musepak, no EQ) fit well into a sub 24Mhz envelope.
13:55:55[Saint]I am now looking into a POC of multiple boost levels.
13:56:30[Saint]I think it may be beneficial on some targets to only boost as much as required, on others, notsomuch.
13:56:42soapthat has been discussed many times in the past and dismissed. What do you feel it offers over the current idea of Clock as low as possible and boost for as short of time as possible?
13:57:22[Saint]What it offers really depends on how power-efficient the given SoC is.
13:57:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:57:37soapThe consensus has long been that boosting for N seconds at X speed is the equal in all but the most insignificant of digits to boost for 0.5N at 2X
13:58:06soapThat unless you have fine grained voltage scaling...
13:58:21[Saint]Indeed.
13:58:42soapI can't speak for any SoC outside the PP ones, but there is (scattered) extensive power draw measurements both direct and indirect on this for them.
14:00
14:00:21soapGotta remember for just how long the PP502x ate WAY too much battery while the 5G was the dominant player on the market. A metric asston of testing of all sorts was done on it trying to weasel out inches before the feet were finally cut out.
14:00:46soapNot to mention all the power consumption testing done while doing the dual-core work.
14:00:55soapexcuse me. COP
14:01:35[Saint]Hahaha, yes. Co-processor...geeez man. :P
14:03:19pamauryOne would need more data but it is unclear if multiple boost levels would bring anything. Power efficiency decreases very quickly with frequency and voltahe so it might be better to run at top speed for a short time and then go into very deep sleep, rather than staying at constant mid level
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14:08:32wodznot speaking it is easier scheme
14:08:39wodz*easiest
14:13:14soapand does any hardware outside the 5G have an inbuilt power-draw meter?
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14:25:07[Saint]soap: yep
14:25:22*[Saint] guesses this is the part where I say which
14:25:27[Saint]N2g does, iirc.
14:28:44[Saint]...now, if only I was anywhere enar a charger.
14:28:51[Saint]*near, even.
14:29:05[Saint]I'm fairly cofident it does, though...fairly.
14:31:33[Saint]I'm sure there are other targetss, but I'm almost exclusively an iPod man these days, and all I use are my 5.5G, and my 6 & 7G, which is most of the reason why no other target in my proximity actually has any charge.
14:39:02soap;)
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14:40:27pamauryI'm failrly sure most non-ipod targets don't have a power draw meter
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15:57:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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16:47:13amayerI know we can put emCore + rockbox on iClassic 7G is this something we should put on our homepage? or is it just by happenstance that it works on 7G and we dont support it at all yet?
16:54:38[Saint]No, its definitely not something we want on the front page.
16:54:54[Saint]Doing so would imply it is supported, which it is not.
16:55:53[Saint]While somewhat intertwined, freemyipod and Rockbox are two seperate projects.
16:56:42[Saint]Enough people figure out the process now as it is to make things a headache sometimes.
16:57:12copperpeople who want to do it figure it out easy enough
16:57:23copperrequires little googling
16:57:43[Saint]They don't seem to care that its two different projects, and that the port status is "unusable" (in no small part sue to the fact that thereis no officially supported installation procedure).
16:58:22[Saint]Advertising emCORE seems to me like the exact opposite of what is wanted presently.
16:58:41[Saint]Well, perhaps not the exact opposite, but definitely not "a good thing (TM)".
16:59:32[Saint]s/sue/due/
17:00
17:01:05[Saint]At least the way things are currently gaurds somewhat against the completely technically challenged.
17:03:13[Saint]Another issue is places like HeadFi, Hydrogenaudio et al touting the port, complete with misleading and/or terribly worded, and/or outright wrong installation instructions, a fucktonne of "facts" about it, and unsupported binaries galore with who knows what changed in them because very few people understand GPL requirements or simply don't care.
17:04:38[Saint]Of course, no one is stopping anyone from crafting a Rockbox bootloader.
17:05:07[Saint]Automated installation on Windows is one of the real PITAs.
17:07:32*[Saint] is reasonably certain that a majority of persons related to both projects will agree with this
17:09:12[Saint]The tl;dr version is: "enough people use the port to supply competant testers, and more than enough people come to us seeking support for the port that they shouldn't technically be getting any support for whatsoever - as they can't (technically) install it in any Rockbox-blessed way"
17:11:12amayer[Saint]: I get what your saying but Rockbox can run on iClassic 7G correct? (as long as you supply bootloader. see: emCore)
17:11:25lebelliumpamaury: are you only interested in porting Rockbox to some Sony players or do you also want to keep the players afterwards?
17:11:26[Saint]Everything a user needs to know about the iPod Classic in reference to Rockbox is already listed on the front page.
17:11:38[Saint]And, yes. I didn't realize this was in dispute?
17:12:22amayerit is not. im just wondering what the difference is that iClassic 6G is listed on the homepage but iClassic 7G is not
17:12:37[Saint]Its the same port, that's why.
17:12:50gevaertsamayer: I believe the basic issue is that whether there actually *is* a 7G is a point of contention :)
17:13:01[Saint]also, this ^
17:13:08gevaerts(it's *very* similar to a 6G)
17:13:50gevaertsOh well, I guess s@6G@6G/7G@ wouldn't hurt
17:14:35[Saint]If you had said "should we do s/Classic 6G/Classic 6-7G/ and left emCORE out of the conversation entirely I would've been able to follow what you were saying a bit easier.
17:14:41amayer[Saint]: gevaerts: thats what i was wondering. if they actually were different, and if 6G/7G should be listed together on the homepage
17:14:43[Saint]There's no harm in making that change.
17:14:53[Saint]But we should make no reference to emCORE, at all.
17:15:26amayer[Saint]: you are correct i should have asked my 2nd question instead of including emcore in it
17:16:33[Saint]I think the only reason it isn;t simply "Classic" is because most users seem to think that Classic == "any non-touch, non-nano iPod" which confuses things even further. :)
17:17:22[Saint]Between Apple's weird change with adding "Classic" to the iPods, and Wikipedia inventing a naming scheme out of the blue, it makes identification quite difficult.
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17:18:34[Saint]There's iPod 1/2/3/4/5G, iPod Mini 1/2G, iPod Nano 1/2/3/4/5/6G, iPod Touch 1/2/3/4G, and then iPod Classic 6/7G.
17:19:30gevaerts[Saint]: you're forgetting the intermediate updates!~
17:19:40[Saint]As you can see, with the 6/7G, it clearly is an extension of the "iPod" line...so, it really should just be "iPod 6/7G", *or* "iPod Classic 1/2G"
17:19:42gevaertse.g. the 5.5G
17:19:47[Saint]...but, they ...didn't.
17:19:52[Saint]For no reason I can fathom.
17:19:54gevaertsAlso, IIUC there are *three* Classic revisions
17:20:06[Saint]the 6.5 is in contention afaik.
17:20:16amayerMy iClassic 6G battery is only lasting ~2-3 hours after 6 years of VERY HEAVY use. and i was thinking about getting a new one. but im not sure if i can find a new 6G so if i get a 7G i just want to make sure i can rockbox it
17:20:22[Saint](there's also a 6.5G Nano :)
17:20:40[Saint]amayer: yeah, sure.
17:20:52[Saint]I wouldn;t buy one, though.
17:21:03[Saint]I wouldn't ever buy a new iPod.
17:21:16amayerwhat other high volume(see: memory size) targets do we have?
17:21:27amayeri have 100Gb library I like to keep in my pocket
17:21:42[Saint]Buy a battery...much cheaper, and the older 160Gb "fat" Classic has a *MUCH* larger battery.
17:22:04[Saint]850mAh vs 600mAh in the newer versions.
17:22:20[Saint]I would just buy a new battery, problem solved.
17:22:22amayerdont you have to saulder (sp?) the battery in?
17:22:36amayer(has not looked into this option)
17:23:42[Saint]Even if you wanted a Classic 76..I wouldn;t buy one new.
17:23:53[Saint]And, no.
17:24:05[Saint]76? ha! 7G, rather.
17:24:38[Saint]And, several retailers are still selling Classic 6G new-in-box.
17:24:45[Saint]You don;t even have to look very hard for them.
17:27:37[Saint]amayer: www.youtube.com/v/q23MgRx_kTY will show you exactly how trivial it is.
17:27:48[Saint](for both the thin and fat variants)
17:28:16amayer[Saint]: thanks :) it does seem pretty easy.
17:28:21[Saint]{you really want the fat version, though, IMO...all that sweet, sweet battery life!}
17:28:58amayeri have the 120Gb iClassic... not sure if that is fat or skinny
17:29:16[Saint]I get ~40 hours out of mine, and two of them have the original batteries in them.
17:31:30[Saint]wait...its 120GB?
17:31:31amayerso the battery option is a way better way to go
17:31:36[Saint]Then its not a 6G.
17:31:47[Saint]If its 120GB, its a 7G.
17:32:02amayeri thought 7G was only 160?
17:32:11[Saint]...no, shit no.
17:32:31[Saint]120/160GB.
17:32:49copperwhy not buy a new one?
17:32:56amayer*faceplam* really?
17:32:58copper32 hours of battery life is plenty
17:33:12[Saint]copper: why buy a new one when the battery is the only issue?
17:33:22amayercopper: I just need a new battery
17:33:34coppercan you disassemble it without breaking everything?
17:33:37[Saint]rather, why buy a complete device, when the old one can be made to run with ~430 expense vs several hundred?
17:34:00[Saint]*~$30
17:34:01copperyou need special tools I think
17:34:05copperfrom iFixIt
17:34:06[Saint]Naw...
17:34:19[Saint]They would like you to think so, because they are jerks.
17:34:39copperiPod Classics are notoriously difficult to disassemble
17:34:45copperor is that not true?
17:35:04[Saint]I love the way you stated that as fact, then immediately questioned it. :)
17:35:12amayerhaha
17:35:17[Saint]*I* don't think its true...
17:35:57copper"they are notoriously" means "that's the word on the internet"
17:36:04[Saint]The 6G is basically a giant iPod Video, and the 7G is slightly more complicated, but disassembly is documented in many places.
17:36:08copper"The iPod Classic was offered in an 80 GB model for MSRP US$249 and a 160 GB model for MSRP US$349."
17:36:14copper"During the 'Let's Rock' Apple Event on September 9, 2008, the 80 GB and the thicker 160 GB model were discontinued in favor of a thin 120 GB version retailing for US$249."
17:36:27copper"During the event Apple re-introduced the 160 GB version with the same slim profile as the 120 GB version, retailing at US$249. The 120 GB model has now been dropped and the only option available is the 160 GB model."
17:36:31amayer[Saint]: what years where the 7Gs sold? I bought my iClassic new from walmart 7 years ago.
17:36:35 Join Guest17648 [0] (~husvagn@90-230-140-28-no41.tbcn.telia.com)
17:36:50copperer, 2006?
17:36:56[Saint]7 years?!?
17:37:06[Saint]that doesn;t seem to work out for either 6 or 7G
17:37:17amayer*thinks really hard*
17:37:19[Saint]Oh, whoops, math. Heh.
17:37:43amayerit was either 2006 or 2007
17:37:51amayerI had it right at the end of highschool
17:38:01copper120GB was released in 2008
17:38:14copperseptember 2008
17:38:26*[Saint] nods
17:38:43copperWikipedia calls it "6G, 1st revision"
17:38:54copperlatest is "6G, 2nd revision"
17:38:58*[Saint] shakes a fist at wikipedia
17:39:01lebelliumhttp://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgi why is the Recorder always in red here?
17:39:17amayerwas that 6G or 7G maybe i did buy it right after high school. but it would have been right after it came out. because i know i had it at the begining of college
17:39:39copper[Saint]: that's the best way to call it, really
17:39:52[Saint]lebellium: you do know the build results (and the reason why it failed) is printed there, yeah?
17:40:07[Saint]copper: "iPod 6G"
17:40:14[Saint]None of this Classic bullcrap.
17:40:21copperhmm?
17:40:22[Saint]Its clearly part of the iPod line.
17:40:37copper6G is what apple calls the iPod Classic
17:40:49[Saint]it shoudl either be "iPod 6G" or "iPod Classic 1G".
17:40:51lebellium[Saint]: yes but it says "make: *** [/home/bryan/source/rockbox/build-archosrecorder/ajbrec.ajz] Error 255
17:40:53lebelliumBuild Failure: No 'rockbox.zip' was produced. " . I don't really understand since http://build.rockbox.org/data/rockbox-archosrecorder.zip seems to work
17:40:55[Saint]as I stated about 30 minutes ago.
17:41:17[Saint]lebellium: see slightly above that, the error is quite clear.
17:41:26[Saint]the binary is oversized, it has been for ages.
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17:42:20lebelliumHow can it be both oversized and working?
17:42:34[Saint]"[03:18] <[Saint]> There's iPod 1/2/3/4/5G, iPod Mini 1/2G, iPod Nano 1/2/3/4/5/6G, iPod Touch 1/2/3/4G, and then iPod Classic 6/7G. [03:19] <[Saint]> As you can see, with the 6/7G, it clearly is an extension of the "iPod" line...so, it really should just be "iPod 6/7G", *or* "iPod Classic 1/2G""
17:42:36[Saint]copper ^
17:43:00[Saint]That's my reasoning, and its perfectly sound IMO. There was nothing to gain except confusion with what they did.
17:43:05copper[Saint]: except the "G" (generation) doesn't mean the same thing with iPods before and after the Classic
17:43:20[Saint]It means even less now.
17:43:24copperor, just call them by year, I don'tk now
17:43:41[Saint]a product *starts* at its sixth iteration? ...pfffft!
17:43:56copperwhat about the iPod Video and iPod Photo
17:44:14copperdat shit didn't start with the "Classic"
17:44:14[Saint]5G and 4G respectively.
17:45:47[Saint]lebellium: my guess is "sheer chance".
17:46:01copperiMacs and Macbooks are called by their year
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17:46:11saratogaanyone feel like benchmarking the new compressor improvements on PP?
17:46:21saratogaassuming performance is fine i think that patch can go in
17:46:23[Saint]I don't own the target, so I don;t know, all I do know is that the binary has been oversized for an age.
17:46:44amayerhttp://support.apple.com/kb/HT1353#iPod_classic_120GB on this page it lists the 120Gb ipod as its own device... so its not grouped with the generation before (im guessing 3 products lower) or the next gen (4 products up)
17:46:46[Saint]saratoga: you mean the "open the compressor"+ attack time?
17:47:08saratogayeah this
17:47:09saratogahttp://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/626/
17:47:22saratogathe patch looks like good work, maybe we ought to give that guy git access as well
17:47:43[Saint]saratoga: I'm actually using it now, but I have too many other patches in my tree to provide an accurate bench.
17:47:51saratogai'm in favor of anyone willing to jump into the dsp code as a first project :)
17:47:57saratogaon PP?
17:48:15[Saint]It is good work, too, barring some whitespace and a single comment I didn;t like the look of for purely aesthetic reasons. :)
17:48:19[Saint]ANd yes, on PP.
17:48:38saratogaif you have test_codec enabled, you could just play any track with and without DSP effects
17:48:56saratogai don't really care about other patches or overclocking, just what the difference is with it enabled or disabled
17:49:02[Saint]AH. I forgot about that.
17:49:11saratogajust want to make sure it runs fine
17:49:18saratogaor else we can ifdef it on slower devices
17:49:28[Saint]Awwww...fuck it. my test_codec is an ancient leftover, apparently.
17:49:43[Saint]I'll get it done and comment on the tracker when I can.
17:49:46saratogacool
17:49:59[Saint]I wanted to give that guy an "attaboy" for his work too.
17:49:59saratogai want to make an effort to test things on PP to make sure we keep it running well
17:50:20[Saint]Like you said, he really jumped in deep, on a first try (for this project), and did it well.
17:50:24saratogaalso, has anyone seen bagder or zagor in a while?
17:50:35[Saint]Not me personally.
17:50:50[Saint]I have seen Zagor in community in the past few days.
17:51:04[Saint]I can't remember the last time I say Bagder active though.
17:51:18[Saint]*saw
17:52:13saratogai'll email
17:52:41[Saint]I have to admit, when I read the "compressor sound 'more open'" (or similar) I thought "...awwww, here we go, some audiophile airy-fairy subjective wankery".
17:52:47[Saint]Imagine my surprise.
17:53:00pamaurylebellium: it's better if I can keep the players, to debug them in case of problem
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17:53:38saratogayeah i don't think the old compressor was all that high quality
17:54:01 Nick clau is now known as Guest62057 (~974a65f1@www.haxx.se)
17:54:02 Nick Guest62057 is now known as claudior (~974a65f1@www.haxx.se)
17:54:09[Saint]I am actually glad you noticed this patch.
17:54:33[Saint]I had no plans to do so tonight, but I was going to go looking for you tomorrow and prod you if you hadn't seen it.
17:54:49saratogaalso who runs the gerrit tracker? we need to set it so that sandbox projects don't show on the front page
17:55:04[Saint]I have you mentally tagged as "DSP guy" I guess.
17:55:21[Saint]Sorry, "DSP and optimization guy"
17:55:24[Saint]:)
17:55:41amayer[Saint]: have you ever ordered a battery before? if so where did you get it from?
17:56:15[Saint]I haven't ever ordered one online, no.
17:56:46 Quit akaWolf (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
17:57:01lebelliumpamaury: ok I could lend you my S540 and S615 but I don't really want to gift them as they are part of my collection. If you want to keep the players, then better buy them with the Rockbox fund I think. I could make a small paypal donation for that if needed.
17:57:02[Saint]I have a wholesaler and fabricator of various cell technology right around the corner (well, 15 mins or so away) keeping me in supply of batteries.
17:57:02saratogayeah, although jhmikes actually does most of the effects stuff
17:57:06saratogai did more codecs
17:57:22[Saint]Right, but I see you more often. :)
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17:57:35***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:58:15pamaurylebellium: give me some time before, I'm trying to find them at good prices on leboncoin, I might be able to get a very cheap E440 very soon and I spotted a S540
17:58:24pamauryand I have a lot of work anyway so I'm not in a hurry
17:58:55[Saint]IS it "normal" for bass to sound "flat" with replaygain active, and if so, how does one combat this without negating the effects of replagain?
17:58:59[Saint]saratoga: ^
17:59:20[Saint]I have a sense there's something I'm missing that I should be using in conjunction with replaygain.
17:59:28claudiori asked samsung
17:59:32saratogaits probably just quieter
17:59:38claudiorto release source of ypq3 player
17:59:50claudiorther response me: not gpl
17:59:52claudiorT_T
17:59:54lebelliumpamaury: no problem :) I'm afraid the E440 is very close to E360 and would cause the same impendance issues with my UM3x unfortunately :S
17:59:59saratogausually replaygain ends up 5-10 dB quieter, which will tend to make the bass much less pronounced
18:00
18:00:02lebelliumclaudior: I already asked in the past ;)
18:00:13[Saint]saratoga: I added as much pre-amp as the worst case scenarios negative gain, but it still sounds "flat".
18:00:16[Saint]But only the bass.
18:00:31saratogaits just a volume adjustment, so i don't know what would cause that
18:00:32claudiornow with lorenzomiori we are work to reverse fw
18:01:05saratogai'd recommend using analog gain (that is, the actual volume control), usually you get some clipping if you try to run replaygain at 0dB
18:01:11saratogavia preamp
18:01:25saratogaalthough depending on the music style there is a good chance it wouldn't be noticable
18:01:40saratogathe audibility of such things is controversial on HA
18:01:53[Saint]saratoga: I must admit I haven't ABXed it, but switching back and forth between replaygain and no, it really seems to me like the bass bottoms out.
18:02:27saratogaperception of bass is highly volume dependent, so i tend to think its just that the levels aren't the same
18:02:57[Saint]Perhaps I am imagining it. There's every chance. I just wanted to ask to see if this percieved effect was "normal" or not.
18:03:05claudiorlebellium
18:03:46[Saint]It is strange (to me) that when I apply as much pre-amp as there is negative track gain, it doesn't "sound right", or the same to me, as it does with replaygain off.
18:04:41saratogaits possible theres some additional gain thats applied for some reason
18:04:58saratogai don't think replaygain would do that, but maybe the EQ adds a bit of negative gain silently?
18:05:04claudiorwhere samsung say firmware not gpl
18:05:10saratogayou'd have to ask jhmikes about that or i guess test with test_codec
18:05:15[Saint]I was just curious if this was a known effect, real or not, I guess the next step is seeing whether or not I can reliably ABX replaygain and replaygain+pre amp where pre amp is equivalent to the gain applied.
18:05:49saratogai think test_codec can write out the actual audio to wav files, so you could check it in an audio editor and see if theres some difference
18:05:56saratogawith and without replaygain
18:06:11[Saint]Ahhh, thanks, I wasn't aware it could do so.
18:06:12lebelliumclaudior: I asked last year and they replied: "We are publishing product's source code which is covered under GPL, LGPL or MPL. But there's no source code covered under these licenses in the YP-Q3. "
18:06:54claudiorso ypq3 is closed source?
18:07:26[Saint]"no source code covered under these licenses" certainly suggests so.
18:07:46claudiorç_ç
18:07:56lebelliumThat's what I understand here. That may be a lie, but we have no way to verify it, they can claim what they want :)
18:08:23claudiorlebellium you saw q3 page on wiki?
18:08:46claudiorsome information i wrote are taken from ABI
18:08:46[Saint]Show it to pamaury, devices disassemble their own firmware in fear when he's around.
18:08:47[Saint]:P
18:09:12lebelliumclaudior: Yes. I'm closely working with lorenzo for some years so I'm always aware of what's going on with Samsung + Rockbox :)
18:09:32pamauryYP-Q3 is TCC7901 based iirc ?
18:09:48claudioras you can read on wiki
18:09:57[Saint]pamaury: I believe so, yes.
18:10:08[Saint]So, bricking shouldn;t be a fear, that's a plus.
18:10:40lebelliumclaudior: check here if there are no additionnal useful info about Q3 hardware: http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9149/8hr0.jpg
18:10:43fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #163 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/163 : 3Manual: Fix the WPS tags table by Alexander Levin (changes/63/163/1)
18:10:45fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #163 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/163 : 3Manual: Fix the WPS tags table by Alexander Levin (changes/63/163/1)
18:10:48pamaurysome guy (KotH ?) is working on D20 which is also TCC7901 based
18:10:57*[Saint] prods bluebrother^
18:11:21pamauryI'm working on porting hwstub to the TCC so it's easier to hack on them
18:11:22[Saint](if you don't feel like doing it, can you show me the source so I can kick fs-bluebot's ass a bit?)
18:11:26[Saint]bluebrother^: ^
18:11:31claudiorlebellium where you found it?
18:11:32claudioro.o
18:11:47claudiorbrb wiki and come back
18:11:58saratogathere are a number of new imx devices right? are any besides the Fuze+ relatively usable?
18:12:08saratogai suppose a Creative player?
18:12:23 Quit copper (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
18:12:52lebelliumclaudior: As an insider I often got confidential documents from Samsung but for this one, it's a leak on a Chinese forum
18:13:10pamaurysaratoga: zenxfi3 is very usable (except radio)
18:13:28saratogacan we mark it unstable?
18:13:32pamauryzenxfi2 so so, sony nwz-E360/E370 are on good rail
18:13:39pamauryclearly yes
18:14:13pamauryI'm working on a few Creative players. The code is stable but the biggest issue it installation and dual-boot, which I'm working on it
18:14:39saratogaright now you need to use linux or else download a prepatched firmware?
18:14:59claudiorim adding it on wiki, check out if i miss something
18:16:09lebelliumclaudior: to avoid dead links, you should attach documentation to the wiki page I think
18:16:18pamaurysaratoga: in theory we have both windows and linux support to update the firmware, but it's not supported by rbutil
18:16:33saratogais there a command line tool?
18:16:41pamaurythat's a command line too yeah
18:17:09pamauryThe main issue is the filesystem: creative uses its own filesystem so at the moment you need to trash creative FS to use rockbox
18:17:16claudiorcan i attach that image you post?
18:17:30pamaurybut I may have found a way to solve this issue
18:18:28lebelliumclaudior: other people here are more aware of what is allowed or not than I am but if that's allowed, you should attach the RAM datasheets for example
18:18:50lebelliumwe never know if the download link will be still working in a few months or years
18:19:23pamauryyeah attaching the datasheets is always a better idea
18:19:29KotHpamaury: working is a bit too strong of a word ^^'
18:19:43claudiorbut i can attach your schematich photo?
18:19:43pamaurythinking about it ;)
18:19:44saratogafwiw i don't care if we kill the creative firmware :)
18:19:47KotHpamaury: i'm swamped with work atm, so no time for RB :-(
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18:20:25lebelliumclaudior: It's a leak on a chinese website so I don't see any issue with attaching it, we're not responsible for the leak :)
18:20:37claudiork
18:20:57saratogaoh did someone still need tcc datasheets btw?
18:20:58claudiorcan you link me the source?
18:21:32pamaurysaratoga: I personally agree but I still think it's better to be able to dualboot, and as a matter of fact the OF won't boot with a trashed partition (although the recovery mode will of course)
18:23:31lebelliumclaudior: I downloaded the pic to my computer a long time ago, it was in a thread somewhere here bbs.imp3.net/forum-23-1.html
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18:26:30 Join derf [0] (~derf@fuzzyneural.net)
18:28:00lebelliumclaudior: I might buy the YP-Q3 service manual for $10 but not sure it's worth it. I did it for the YP-R1 at the time, if you want to see how it looks like: http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71554
18:29:40pamauryif it contains the full schematics I would say it's worth it
18:29:48pamauryotherwise no
18:30:06claudior:Q____
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18:31:04lebelliumIt would probably look like the YP-R1 one. So just look at the R1 service manual to have an idea. I'm not sure lorenzo92 really used it for the YP-R1 port
18:31:23saratogai think service manuals rarely have much detail in them
18:31:37lorenzo92lebellium: regarding what?
18:31:42saratogaor at least i haven't seen an mp3 player one with pin assignments (although that would be very useful)
18:31:43claudiorciao!
18:31:45lebelliumlorenzo92: logs ;)
18:31:49lorenzo92okay
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18:32:33 Join Maxdamantus [0] (~Maxdamant@2001:470:f078::dead:beef:cafe)
18:32:41pamaurysaratoga: the YP-Z5F manual has the schematics
18:32:52pamaurythe YP-Q1 too
18:34:04claudiorwhere we can find service manual
18:34:11lorenzo92well indeed they are a lot helpful: complete schematics!
18:34:32lebelliumclaudior: I put a link to the ABI thread above...
18:34:46lebelliumlorenzo92: did you use it for the YP-R1?
18:34:53lorenzo92claudior: I don't have much time these days, anyways firmware (the .ROM file) is in a known format
18:35:13lorenzo92lebellium: not really, just to look at some design choices :D
18:35:33claudiorlebellium where find q3 manual
18:35:48lorenzo92you cannot if there is no clue in the net basically :)
18:35:53lebelliumclaudior: You won't find it for free, unless I buy it ;)
18:36:08claudiorwhere you buy?
18:36:14lorenzo92lebellium, claudior: having the schematics isn't the key to success
18:36:45lebelliumOk, then I'll save my money :)
18:36:52claudiorBRB
18:36:56lorenzo92claudior: we shall starting dissassembling the OF to look at LCD initialization steps
18:37:28lorenzo92i might help you a little,
18:39:43claudior:)
18:39:48lorenzo92lebellium: well for the moment for sure, to say, the schematic didn't help me at all writing LCD driver, pamaury did :D
18:39:49claudiorlorenzo
18:40:12lorenzo92claudior: please use my nickname, so that I receive notifications!
18:40:54claudiorlebellium brought us this-> http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9149/8hr0.jpg
18:40:57fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #163 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/163 : 3Manual: Fix the WPS tags table by Alexander Levin (changes/63/163/1)
18:40:59fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #163 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/163 : 3Manual: Fix the WPS tags table by Alexander Levin (changes/63/163/1)
18:41:19lorenzo92Houston, we have a problem! bluebot! xD
18:41:55pamauryI'll see if I can get my hands on a YP-Q3, I'm actively looking for a TCC7901 based device and that one is the only cheap and easily available I know
18:42:12lorenzo92claudior: interesting, I'm looking at the small eeprom: might it be something for booting?!
18:42:27 Quit claudior (Quit: CGI:IRC)
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18:42:55claudiordmn
18:42:57lorenzo92lebellium, claudior: we have a lot of information in here actually :)
18:43:09claudiori have dubt
18:43:16lorenzo92at least we know the backlight driver and we could start with it for example
18:43:21claudiornand dont seems the sam of photo
18:44:15pamaurylorenzo92: I still haven't given up on making hwstub working on tcc too, that would greatly help you I think
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18:44:53claudiorlebellium you have other leak of q3?
18:45:02lorenzo92pamaury: interesting, but I'm not going to have a TCC device soon (I have other stuff to complete before)
18:45:21claudiorpamaury i have q3
18:46:39claudiorlorenzo92 you keep work on fw in those day i was away?
18:46:51claudior(my english still suck xD)
18:48:06 Quit Raptors_ (Quit: Leaving)
18:48:16lorenzo92not really, the format is really easy to understand but what I don't understand is their logic (i'm talking about the .BIN format, that is, a container for bot .ROM and .RSC)
18:48:34lorenzo92said that, we need to understand .ROM, .RSC isn't our important stuff
18:48:58pamaurywe have the format for .ROM, that's the telechips format
18:49:01lorenzo92again, .ROM file is a standard TCC firmware, so the only thing we can start is disassembling it
18:49:31lorenzo92pamaury: exactly, but I fed it to IDA and I was already able to look at the code: did I do the right thing?
18:50:28pamauryI think so
18:51:07lorenzo92i think so too, because I could follow some registers :)
18:52:12claudiorjust updated q3 wiki page
18:52:16claudiorhttp://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SamsungQ3
18:52:18lorenzo92pamaury: I'm wondering how to cleanly start a thread in system_init (kernel_init happens after)
18:52:42lorenzo92I've my logic in system because it's the right place on hosted platform, I guess
18:53:36lorenzo92(I've spent an hour to realize this :D )
18:53:46lorenzo92because it throws segmentation fault
18:54:11pamauryyou cannot do this in system_init I think, why do you need a thread for ?
18:54:18pamaury*what
18:54:32lorenzo92inotify
18:55:29lorenzo92I wrote a simple subsystem, to be able to detect in an optimized way the insertion/removal of the sd card on ypr0
18:56:07pamaurycan't you start it on storage init ?
18:56:39pamauryah maybe not, I don't know how hosted targets work
18:56:52pamaurymaybe you should see this with kugel
18:57:14lorenzo92well main.c does call storage_init, but i guess is a void somewhere...let me give a look
18:58:35pamaurymy guess is that you should start it in some init function which is called after kernel_init(), there must be some which are target specific
18:59:01pamaurylike power_init() ?
18:59:08claudiorafk
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19:00:05[Saint]"[04:35] <lebellium> claudior: You won't find it for free, unless I buy it ;)" <−− I wouldn't say that...
19:00:30[Saint]I found quite a few of the service manuals listed on your linked thread freely available.
19:00:38[Saint]Including the YP-R1's.
19:01:18[Saint]It may be more accurate to say "It could potentially be very difficult to find it from a free source"
19:01:32[Saint]But far from impossible.
19:01:38lorenzo92pamaury: indeed, but I need to see how to use them i.e. some are void-ed somewhere I guess
19:07:57lebellium[Saint]: I only bought the YP-R1 one, I found all the others for free but not necessarily easily. I know which ones can be found for free and which ones can't :)
19:08:20[Saint]Well, apparently not :)
19:08:31lebelliumIf you can show me where to find the YP-R1 for free, I'm interested though :)
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19:23:26[Saint]Errr, um...shit. Sorry, didn't see your response 'til now. I'll have a look through my history and you can tell me if its legit or not.
19:25:19[Saint]lebellium: http://www.datafilehost.com/d/eb916c29 <−− this is it, I believe.
19:25:38[Saint]I can't find the page that lead me there...but, its definitely out there.
19:26:04lebelliumthis is obviously a reupload from mine :)
19:26:17[Saint]from 2010?
19:27:09[Saint]I suppose anything is possible.
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19:29:31lebelliumwell, I can't be sure since Kaspersky tells me it's dangerous and won't let me download the file but the file name is strangly the same as I used when renaming all the services manuals. All the ones I downloaded for free always had long/strange/unclear file names
19:30:32[Saint]Heh, yeah, Kapersky doesn't like .pdf files on teh infowebs.
19:31:01[Saint]WHen did you put the links up on that forum thread? It is highly possible someone re-uploaded it from there.
19:31:23[Saint]I found it by looking for the filename you list there.
19:32:03lebelliumI may be wrong if you are sure it has been uploaded in 2010. But if you are not sure about that, then the probability that it's a reupload from mine is high. it's exactly the same file with the same filename as mine but I renamed it. The original one I bought had a different file name :)
19:32:08[Saint]I really need to stop using incognito mode/private browsing so I actually have a history and can tell where things come from.
19:33:17[Saint]the data last modified is Fri, Aug 13 2010 05:11:08
19:35:05lebelliumSo either the date here is wrong, or the guy who uploaded it had exactly the same file name scheme in mind as me, that's almost telepathy :D
19:35:07claudiorlebellium where you buy service manual?
19:35:57[Saint]lebellium: maybe you have multiple personality disorder and one of your alternate personas uploaded it. :)
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19:37:06lebelliumclaudior: I just google and look if the website looks trusty or not. Well no one looks really trusty... I hate that service manual business :)
19:37:39lebelliumfor the Q3: http://www.service-docs.com/store/search.php?searchstring=SAMSUNG%20YP-Q3AB&showresult=true&exp=&resultpage=&categories=&msg=&search=search.php&shop=1
19:38:10[Saint]Hahaha, I was going to say.
19:38:26[Saint]I haven't yet seen a service manual or datasheet vendor that looks "trustworthy".
19:38:35[Saint]They all seem to look like phishing scams. :)
19:42:49claudioris legal manual business?
19:43:48lebelliumI'm not sure exactly how this busines works but I suspect those vendors to buy it on official/authorized websites at a high price (for example http://www.samsungparts.com) then resell it cheaper but to more people
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19:46:00[Saint]claudior: in most cases, no.
19:46:33[Saint]Generally speaking purchasing a datasheet or technical manual licenses you and you alone to view it.
19:46:55[Saint]SOme are more permissive, but those are the ones you'll find floating around for free.
19:47:07[Saint](generally speaking - there are certainly edge cases)
19:55:15lebelliumpamaury: I'm looking a bit at the settings on the E360 and I see that for the brightness, the display is black/off from level 16. Looks like levels from 0 to 15 are useless?
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19:56:36pamauryyeah I noticed this, this is surprising since it's a pwm; i'll need set the minimum to 16
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19:59:23lebelliumhum ok, so for example it's not possible to add additionnal steps between level 16 and 17?
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20:00:33pamaurymaybe, is there a big step ?
20:01:07lorenzo92pamaury: can you set pwm frequency? in case you can be pretty flexible i guess
20:02:02pamauryyeah of course, but I thought 100 steps in already good enough
20:02:19lebelliumpamaury: well I find it very progressive from 100 to 17 then suddendly it turns off at 16
20:02:27lorenzo92haha 100 steps :D
20:04:56pamauryok i'll see what I can do
20:06:18pamaurythat's rather low priority though :p
20:06:26lebelliumsure :)
20:06:34lebelliumkeymapping is higher priority :P
20:08:25*pamaury wonders if there are backlight-phile, who feel that backlight is more "cold" at 10KHz and more "colourful" at 1MHz ^^
20:09:25bertriknah, PWM is too digital
20:09:31lorenzo92pamaury: absolutely :p
20:10:30pamauryI understand them in a way, display is definitely cold when it's off and colourful when it's on :D
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20:12:11pamaurybertrik: you're right, good old oled, nothing better than organic light
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20:20:14lorenzo92pamaury: doubt for you: can I reference via a pointer a static function?
20:22:08lorenzo92apparently that was not my problem :)
20:23:46pattohelo, maybe you may help me, I have sansa cli zip and i just change theme, and the player is working but theres nothing on the screen
20:24:10pattoso I dont have access to the menu etc
20:24:28pattohow to reset theme to default one
20:24:51pattoI have access to the files on the player from pc
20:25:26[Saint]pamaury: but, you have to make sure that your PWM is free range, too.
20:25:37[Saint]The PWMs kept in cages produce sad light.
20:26:07pattothere is config.cfg file
20:26:15[Saint]patto: remove config.cfg
20:26:44[Saint]you can also edit it and remove the (rather obvious) theme ralated settings, as well.
20:26:51bertriklorenzo92: yes, pointer to static functions should work fine
20:27:25pamaurydefinitely, that's why PWM stands for Pulsed Wild Monster
20:27:39[Saint]pamaury: Hahaha. :)
20:27:39pattoyou mean:
20:27:44pattofms: /.rockbox/wps/ti83.fms font: /.rockbox/fonts/08-ti83.fnt wps: /.rockbox/wps/ti83.wps sbs: /.rockbox/wps/ti83.sbs backdrop: /.rockbox/wps/wp7style/bg.bmp
20:27:47patto?
20:27:56[Saint]I do indeed.
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20:29:15[Saint]Hahahaha. My iLike theme must be pretty convincing.
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20:29:38[Saint]Ms [Saint] just SMS me from work saying that her co-workers only just now noticed that the iPod was "different".
20:29:39pattoSaint: it worked! :) Thank you!
20:29:42[Saint]After 4 months.
20:29:49[Saint]patto: No problem.
20:31:17lorenzo92hum I'm having an issue with threading on hosted: is it normal that a blocking read() blocks all the other threads? is the scheduler okay?
20:31:21[Saint]I needed to make a fixed.cfg file with pretty much every setting located therein as people other than Ms [Saint] had been poking at things they didn't understand.
20:31:28 Quit patto (Quit: CGI:IRC)
20:32:08[Saint]I had previously forgotten about fixed.cfg, it is so handy.
20:32:46[Saint]I used to use it primarily to set a sane listening volume so I didn;t accidentally blow my ears off if I had been listening via the car stereo at 0dB or so.
20:33:12[Saint]Now I'm using it to apply pretty much every setting at boot time.
20:38:25lorenzo92pamaury: do you know anything about threads and blocking calls?
20:39:05pamauryin rockbox you mean ?
20:39:10pamaurynot so much
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20:43:56lorenzo92pamaury: yep, because a blocking call should not block other threads humhum
20:47:55lorenzo92perhaps because I'm using a system call actually (read a file) ?
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20:52:59pamaurylorenzo92: native or hosted ?
20:53:16lorenzo92pamaury: hosted, so i assume it is a yes...
20:54:29pamauryi don't know how hosted is implemented, might be, ask kugel, i think he was the last one to touch it
20:56:23[Saint]s/last/pretty much the only/ :)
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21:51:42claudiorbye
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