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#rockbox log for 2013-10-22

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00:43:32fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 5cfb148, 225 builds, 22 clients.
00:48:30lebelliumWhaouh pamaury strkes back. How many commits :D
00:48:42pamaurynot some many, but three targets :)
00:48:46pamaury*not so
00:55:47fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 736 seconds.
00:55:49fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision eefab13, 225 builds, 22 clients.
00:57:29pamaurywow, I was pretty good, only one real error
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01:04:49fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 51ed6da, 225 builds, 21 clients.
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09:03:26[Saint]"where is the rockboy top of the screen at the bottom patch for sansa clip plus?"
09:03:52[Saint]That's some high quality mangled English right there.
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10:38:44 Nick [Saint_] is now known as [Saint] (~quassel@rockbox/user/saint)
10:42:15[Saint]http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,43569.msg221054.html#msg221054 isn't too condescending is it?
10:44:36alexbobpis "appropriately condescending" an option?
10:45:03[Saint]Hmmm...so, it does seem condescending? Dammit.
10:45:34[Saint]I try really hard not to come off as cold, harsh, or a prick...really hard. Dammit.
10:46:50coppersounds fine to me
10:47:56copperI'm just not sure how usable the Rockbox utility is, for blind users
10:48:36copperI think someone told me not long ago that blind users much prefer command line stuff
10:49:20coppermaybe the Rockbox utility is harder to use, or even unusable
10:49:28[Saint]RbUtil should be perfectly fine for blind users.
10:49:58copperwhy? because its GUI toolkit has provisions for blind users?
10:50:02copper(Qt?)
10:50:42gevaertscopper: I think that sort of blanket statement ("category X prefers Y") is almost certainly going to be wrong most of the time
10:51:04[Saint]She'll have to get used to it anyway, as if manual installation is a chellenge I don't think generating voice and talk files will be any easier.
10:51:13gevaertsAnd yes, screenreaders should work fine with rbutil, although in the past there have been issues
10:51:22coppergevaerts: I didn't mean "prefer" as a matter of taste, rather as better usability for the blind
10:51:43[Saint]either way is a rather sweeping statement.
10:51:51copperok
10:51:55gevaertscopper: I don't think that's true in general either
10:52:49[Saint]The main reason I suggest it is that it won't try and install the wrong firmware for the device. :)
10:53:26[Saint]Well, that, and installing voice files and generating talk files is literally a point and click affair.
10:54:04[Saint]It may be wrong to assume so but if the user can't get past a manual installation I think that generating those files manually may prove problematic also.
10:54:26copperhow does a blind man "point and click"?
10:55:21gevaertsScreenreader software has features to basically do better tabbing between UI elements and telling you what's there
10:55:30gevaerts(amongst other things)
10:56:22copperI see
10:56:35copper(no pun intended)
10:57:40copperwhat was that woman's reason for trying to install Rockbox manually?
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11:00
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11:06:33[Saint]Ignorance?
11:06:43[Saint]...shit that sounded bad.
11:06:59copperlol
11:07:07[Saint]I meant that as "didn't know any better".
11:07:17[Saint]That's my guess, anyway.
11:08:05coppernot sure how
11:08:25copperhttp://www.rockbox.org/download/ clearly mentions the installer BEFORE the manual install
11:08:44[Saint]She may have found the wiki first.
11:12:49 Join riantsoa [0] (~AndChat56@44.26.90.92.rev.sfr.net)
11:12:55riantsoaHi all
11:13:13riantsoaRockb is good software
11:13:42riantsoaI installed it yesterday on brand new sansadisk sansa clip plus
11:13:54riantsoaBut there is something that annoy me
11:14:28[Saint]...and are you going to tell us what that is?
11:14:58[Saint]We don't mind if you don't, less work for us. :)
11:16:30[Saint]riantsoa: seriously though...what is the problem you're facing?
11:17:11riantsoaI just want to play all file with shuffling, how can i do that?
11:18:24[Saint]bring up the context menu at he root of the files you want to add, and add them, making sure shuffle is off.
11:18:30[Saint]*at the
11:19:06[Saint]<bring up context menu>; Current Playlist; Insert
11:19:23[Saint](exactly the same process for both the File Browser and the Database)
11:20:02riantsoaI must use playlist ?
11:20:24[Saint]All playback with Rockbox is playlist based, always.
11:20:34[Saint]Whenever you're playing audio, its a playlist.
11:23:59riantsoaOk
11:24:52[Saint]There's nothing saying you need to /save/ the playlist, but every time you play audio in Rockbox, it is using a playlist.
11:24:55riantsoaBut its intresting to implement directly tha functionnality to operate rockbox easily
11:25:20[Saint]You have probably noticed the "Erase dynamic playlist?" prompts at least once or twice if you haven't turned the warning off.
11:25:22riantsoaWithout thinking of the playlist paradigm
11:26:04[Saint][22:24:56] <riantsoa> But its intresting to implement directly tha functionnality to operate rockbox easily <−− I have no idea what you mean or are trying to say here.
11:26:42riantsoaI mean, implement a menu item that say "playall"
11:27:07riantsoaIts usability improvement
11:27:17[Saint]If you go to the Database, I believe you will find that this already exists.
11:27:32riantsoaThanks
11:28:01[Saint]Database -> Track
11:29:12[Saint]This is really one of those "read the manual" things.
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11:29:33[Saint]I respect that it is not immediately obvious, but the manual does cover this.
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11:31:47riantsoaIt takes me 7 click to just do tha
11:31:54riantsoaThere is serious ergonomic design here
11:32:23riantsoaIn the original frimware i can do it in two clicks
11:32:31[Saint]WHat? Its three clicks if you use the Database.
11:32:34riantsoaWithout reading the manual
11:32:58[Saint]Database -> Tracks -> select a track
11:33:03[Saint]3 clicks, big deal.
11:33:37[Saint]This is also the point where one is tempted to say "Its open source, and we welcome patches, if you can improve it - go for it"
11:33:42riantsoaThe menu must be arrange in ordef to put the mostly used functions in first place
11:34:09[Saint]Do it then.
11:36:19[Saint]Rockbox isn't a product. Its not really supposed to be an example of great UI design. It is made by developers, for developers. If the general public uses it and gets a kick out of it, great, that's fine, but it isn't the intended use case.
11:36:32coppermore clicks are necessary to turn on shuffling
11:36:59[Saint]copper: uhhhhhhhh?
11:37:28[Saint]copper: Quickscreen -> Press << once.
11:38:14riantsoaWhat is quiclscreen
11:38:33[Saint]That is something you would know if you read the manual.
11:38:34coppergah, what's the keybinding for that in the sim?
11:38:41riantsoaIf its made by developper for developper its ok
11:39:07[Saint]copper: no idea sorry.
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11:39:40copperah, apparently clicking on the home button with the mouse works :)
11:40:01riantsoaBut if you make it less complicated , more people will adopt it
11:40:20riantsoaWith the original firmware, there is no need to read the manual
11:40:31[Saint]Mass adoption has never been an ideal.
11:40:33copperstrangely enough, the Home key (on the keyboard) doesn't seem to be bound
11:40:50lebelliumWe don't even have download statistics so we don't care about how many people adopt it :D
11:40:55[Saint]riantsoa: http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipplus/rockbox-buildch5.html#x8-1000005.13 <−− Quickscreen
11:41:08[Saint]lebellium: download stats are indeed kept
11:41:49[Saint]riantsoa: the reason why you didn't need to read the manual for the Clip+ OF is that it is really simple, braindead, devoid of features, and completely boring.
11:42:10[Saint]Whereas Rockbox is an incredibly complicated, vastly configurable firmware.
11:42:12megal0maniac_afkAmen!
11:42:24lebelliumI'd like to have some stats to know which targets are popular though. You can get an idea with the themes download stats but that's not accurate
11:42:28evilnickYeah, the number of users is kinda incidental really.
11:43:56[Saint]If Rockbox cared about expanding its user base or monetization, the time for that to happen was well over a decade ago ;)
11:44:22megal0maniac_afkI've been using the Clip+ with Rockbox for 2 years and I probably know 3 quarters of the functionality. Even so, it's already 20x more useful, more configurable and more fun than the OF. Same goes for the Fuze+
11:44:28[Saint]There's also no way the settings could be "simplified".
11:44:33[Saint]Well, no easy way.
11:46:41[Saint]Its also not possible to order the menu by "most used item to least used item", as the use cases among users vary wildly.
11:47:20riantsoaRockbox is superb software, and thats why i give you suggestion , that may be help to improve it. Im also a developper (linux kernel), and i see that rockbox has huge potential. I just want to share you my first impression as new user with fresh view, to help you. Cause i know that sometimes we need to take some distance from the product to have a new view and improve it
11:47:28[Saint]If I was going to do anthing in that area, I would simply alphabetize the menus in an EnGB locale.
11:48:19[Saint]riantsoa: I know your intention, and it is appreciated, it just isn't very suitable.
11:48:55[Saint]You are absolutely free to fork the project and make whatever changes your heart desires, though.
11:58:01 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
11:58:13Zagorriantsoa: 1) Rockbox does a lot more than the original firmware. That makes it more complex. 2) Different people find different features most important. There is very little consensus beyond "should play my files".
11:59:16riantsoaSure it does a lot and more
12:00
12:00:15[Saint]Regarding usability: Adding a "Play All" selection to the FIle Browser makes absolutely no sense, as it is a file browser...it only displays the contents of the filesystem and allows selection thereof. And as for the Database, it is already possible as I explained earlier, using the Database -> Tracks option.
12:01:12[Saint]But, as I described earlier also, bringing up the context menu on the top level directory of your media collection will allow you to insert all tracks easily.
12:01:42[Saint]There's just no way (that makes sense) to add such an option to the File Browser anywhere other than the context menu.
12:03:03[Saint]The context menu is really rather crucial to functionality in Rockbox, learning to use it and how its functions differ depending on the current screen (...it is contextual, after all) is rather crucial.
12:09:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:34:35riantsoaYoure right
12:34:52riantsoaThanks
12:35:02riantsoaIs rockbox linux based?
12:35:46[Saint]No.
12:39:21lebelliumcontrary to what ScotXW absolutely wants to write on wikipedia every few weeks :)
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14:06:05CLAM_hi all , i just want to ask what rockbox skin this guy use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxx0C7uHPFY
14:06:28CLAM_and what font
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14:09:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:12:11[Saint]Something ugly, and, something that looks rather like one of my antialiased Ubuntu font family fonts (which is kinda hilarious with a momochrome screen).
14:12:59lebelliumIt's the Classic theme I guess
14:13:08CLAM_its not
14:14:48[Saint]There's only ~100 themes, assuming its on the themesite, it can't be too hard to find.
14:14:57CLAM_i gess
14:15:17[Saint]Of course, there's the rather large possibility that the OP made it his/herself and never uploaded it.
14:16:09lebelliumIt's Classic
14:16:14lebelliumI just checked all themes
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14:18:08[Saint]Correct.
14:18:14[Saint]Its definitely "Classic".
14:19:44[Saint]And it looks like its using one of the Helvetica Bold fonts, on second glance.
14:20:13[Saint]Probably 15 Helvetica Bold
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14:24:00lebelliumClassic which is the most downloaded Rockbox theme, all targets included. Not bad :)
14:24:40[Saint]I highly suspect those results are poisoned.
14:24:59[Saint]It is rather easy to abuse the download count and rating system.
14:25:06[Saint]...and people *definitely* do so.
14:25:58lebelliumYes sure. Maybe some people download and vote 1,2,3,4...10 times. But here we talk about 51250 downloads :)
14:26:33[Saint]Its trivial to script.
14:27:04[Saint]One theme got a few thousand downloads, and all 10 star ratings within a few hours once.
14:27:18[Saint]Easily scriptable.
14:28:26lebelliumhum
14:28:54lebelliumI don't know how to do that but I trust you here. Just I don't see the point of doing that^^
14:29:11coppersome script kiddies are just bored
14:30:19[Saint]I had one guy "1 star" one of my themes a few hundred times once.
14:30:44[Saint]I can't remember what I did to piss him off, it was something...long time ago. Kinda amusing.
14:31:46[Saint]Of course, its possible that those statistics are genuine, but personally I don't trust any of the stats listed on the themesite as I know how easily abused they are.
14:31:58[Saint]The ratings just flat out don't make any sense, too.
14:32:17[Saint]copper knows that first hand.
14:32:19[Saint]:)
14:33:01copperyes
14:33:13[Saint]It will be MUCH better once amayer finishes the work he is doing integrating the theme site and forum profiles.
14:33:43coppersome guy abused the rating system to rate one of my themes very low, but then again he did it only on one or two themes
14:33:46[Saint]Then, users will only be able to vote once, per theme revision, and only if they have downloaded the theme.
14:33:56copperno the other ones, not the one with 10 good ratings or so
14:34:08copperwhich is why I susecpt that guy was just having his fun
14:34:34lebellium[Saint]: reading that http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/bin/compare/Main/DeviceDetection?rev1=98&rev2=97&render=interweave&context=-1 it looks like you made much changes while you actually didn't. Funny :D
14:34:48lebelliummany changes*
14:35:39[Saint]then you see the odd theme around that has ~50 10 star ratings.
14:35:45[Saint]lebellium: hmmmm, odd.
14:36:14[Saint]I only aded Classic Sith Gen DFU mode and did s/6th/Sixth/, I promise! :P
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14:38:08[Saint]Oooooh, I see what happened.
14:38:31[Saint]I pushed everything past Classic 6G DFU mode down a line, so every line past there is "changed".
14:38:32[Saint]heh.
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14:52:22CLAM__thanks
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15:14:44GargajCNSmorn'
15:14:54GargajCNSso dev question
15:15:04GargajCNSi was thinking of looking into making album art work for OGGs
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15:15:37GargajCNSand looking through the code now i see that the jpeg decompressor reads straight from disk, which is a problem since OGG stores AA in base64
15:15:42GargajCNSnow
15:15:45GargajCNSi was wondering
15:16:00GargajCNSsince b64 is a linear encoding format
15:16:29GargajCNSwould it be plausible to modify the code in a way that the read/seek/etc functions operate transparently through b64 as well
15:17:04gevaertsGargajCNS: you'll probably want to talk to Unhelpful, n1s, and saratoga about this. IIRC they're our experts in that particular field
15:17:25GargajCNSi'm just talking to whoever seems to be listening :)
15:17:34gevaertsOh, I do realise that :)
15:17:49[Saint]By my understanding the main issue is that there isn't a consistent standard for embedding in OGG, is there?
15:18:02GargajCNSwell yes and no
15:18:06GargajCNShttp://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisComment#METADATA_BLOCK_PICTURE
15:18:08gevaerts[Saint]: I don't think that's the problem
15:18:22gevaertsBut then I don't actually now
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15:30:06GargajCNShttps://xiph.org/flac/format.html#metadata_block_picture
15:30:10GargajCNS"17 - A bright coloured fish"
15:32:41evilnickIsn't the Vorbis logo a brightly coloured fish?
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15:35:11GargajCNSyeah but this apparently comes from the ID3 spec
15:36:51evilnickIn that case, maybe it's just a red herring
15:36:54evilnick...
15:37:19GargajCNS*rimshot.wav*
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15:57:21fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 4aa32fb, 225 builds, 19 clients.
15:57:26pamauryquick fix for the fuze+
16:00
16:06:26megal0maniac_afkfor which issue?
16:06:44fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 563 seconds.
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16:14:12pamaurymegal0maniac_afk: panic on boot
16:14:34megal0maniac_afkAh. Cool
16:15:15megal0maniac_afkMostly been using the clip lately, but running the latest BL on the fuze at least
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16:23:17pixelmahmm, I may be missing something but does "updating" Rockbox on Android really mean uninstall and install the new apk / what happens to my user files in that case (own .wps etc.)? The app manager complains about different signment of the new apk otherwise.
16:24:18[Saint]Like any Android application, you only need to do so if the signing key changed.
16:24:25gevaertspixelma: to update on android, it needs to be signed by the same developer key
16:24:43gevaerts(so you can't easily subvert someone else's app)
16:24:47[Saint]Also, your user data will remain unchanged, as it installs to sdcard (or an emulated sdcard, depending on the device)
16:24:50gevaertsNot sure about the data
16:25:55[Saint]Everything that isn't the apk itself sits in /sdcard/.rockbox
16:25:57pixelmacan't remember where I got the old one from, it's quite an old build from the end of last year.
16:26:21[Saint]I think I may have built it for you.
16:26:40[Saint]If I did, that machine was long since retired, and the signing key with it.
16:26:46pixelmawell, if I have to uninstall first, what happens to the rockbox folder?
16:27:03[Saint]Like everything in /sdcard, it remains untouched.
16:27:15pixelmaaha, ok
16:27:29[Saint]Uninstalling an application never touches user data on /sdcard
16:27:58[Saint]It will "Just Work (TM)"
16:28:30[Saint]After you uninstall, and reinstall, it will pretty much be transparent to you, as your config, themes, etc. will still be sitting there.
16:29:46pixelmaone thing is weird though with the old build - scrolling lists stopped working (? at least I haven't noticed it being broken before). I did have a case of filesystem corruption with the card though and especially .langs and .cfgs in the rockbox folder were affected
16:30:17pixelmaI'll try installing a newer build from rasher's site
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16:41:49pixelmaright, scrolling works again and it seems to have kept the settings, at least the visual ones (just took a quick glance). Thanks for the info
16:42:08[Saint]Not a problem pixelma.
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17:50:54*[Saint] wonders if saratoga has been hitting the sauce
17:51:36[Saint]Oh, actually, nevermind. I'm imagining imaginary spelling errors.
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18:10:21foolshpamaury: That fixed last commit fixed the "hangs on boot when plugging in usb before powered on" that was happening to the fuze+, but now I get hanging when plugging in usb when the fuze+ is fully powered up. I'll see about digging up more details.
18:12:08*foolsh wonders if he has been hitting the sauce himself
18:13:10pamaurythat's probably unrelated, the last commit doesn't touch usb. It is reproducable or random ?
18:16:35foolshpamaury: everytime so far, it not hard locked the screen times out and comes back on when unplugged. But otherwise it's unresponsive.
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18:21:42pamauryhum, ok so let's me restate the problem to confirm it: when you plug usb, the usb screen appears, and when you unplug, the usb screen stays on for a while, before it times out ?
18:24:38foolshNo, sorry. When powered on and the usb is plugged in, the screen lights up, the disk activity icon appears in the upper right, and then the device seems to freeze without showing the usb screen. It stays at the last menu screen that I was on. I also can't mount it.
18:25:21pamauryyou should reach bootloader usb mode if usb is plugged on boot ?
18:25:34pamaurywhich bootloader do you have ? V1 or the beta version ?
18:26:13pamauryok I see, I can reproduce it
18:26:17foolshI can reach the usb boot loader, V1 I believe.
18:26:20foolshok
18:27:00foolshI will revert to 51ed6da and confirm if it goes away
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18:42:09foolsh51ed6da panics like before, going back a few months worth of commits to get it *working* again
18:43:52pamauryfoolsh: go back to 5c7167c to avoid panic
18:44:00foolshty pamaury
18:44:34pamaury(well at least I'm sure 7d62a78 is responsible for this parti
18:44:39pamauryparticular panic)
18:47:59foolshWith 4aa32fb I noticed that without a SDmicro inserted the disk activity icon did not appear but the device still hung up
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18:53:15pamauryIt is probably an old bug
19:00
19:03:24foolshWell 5c7167c avoids panic but then I'm back hanging on when plugging in usb like before, going back further in time
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19:03:59foolshSorry I guess 4aa32fb isn't the problem here
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19:31:02[Saint]How does one approximate an optimal pre-gain value assuming peak gain is known?
19:31:19[Saint]copper: ^?
19:31:51[Saint](sorry if you've no idea - sometimes you give the impression of being a sound-stuff-knowing-type-guy)
19:33:37[Saint]I took a wild stab in the dark by averaging the meak positive and negative track gain using back-of-the-envelope-math, and then halved it, which came out at 4.5dB iirc.
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19:37:10[Saint]Teh Infonets seems to suggest a catch-all value of 6dB, so I guess the formula I pulled out of the sky wasn't far wrong.
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20:09:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:12:45foolshAre bugs still reported to flyspray? I noticed its a bit fubar, I suspect its the way the database handles/or not handles the timestamps.
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20:14:01gevaertsfoolsh: we're waiting for Zagor to fix it
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