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#rockbox log for 2013-12-07

00:00:45kiwicampamaury: Sorry, disappeared for a while. Yes. 8GB fullsound. Sounds great. Cheap.
00:01:22kiwicamCheap here. Clips are expensive here. and I'm tired of having them die on me.
00:07:13pamaurythey could at least have a standard installer with cab inside, I really have to install this thing
00:13:01pamaurykiwicam: hum, wonder why the SA4VBE installer contains a firmware in a vibe5/ subdirectory...
00:13:35pamaurythat's interesting, maybe the Gogear Vibe is not based on i.MX233
00:15:29pamaurykiwicam: does your device has a volume+ button ?
00:16:51kiwicamYes. It's basically the up & down keys on the front. They have a double function. They act as up & down when moving in the menu and volume when you're playing an mp3
00:17:46pamaurykiwicam: can you follow this procedure: 1) power off the device (maybe even push the reset button) 2) hold volume+ 3) while holding v+, plug USB and keep holding for a few seconds
00:17:49kiwicamOff is a long press on the centre key which also acts as pause/play and select within menus
00:18:16pamauryI think the screen should stay black and the device appear with a different USB VID:PID which you can see using dmesg or lsusb
00:19:22kiwicamAh ha. Says "Firmware Upgrading ... Don't Disconnect"
00:20:09pamauryhum, that's not exactly what I expected ^^ what is the USB ID ?
00:20:13 Quit Narod ()
00:22:13kiwicamfor lsusb, it has to be this one: Bus 002 Device 003: ID 10d6:10d6 Actions Semiconductor Co., Ltd
00:22:14chrisjjgaeverts: Care to say why you just deleted the Manual column I added at ?
00:22:23kiwicamCan't see it on dmesg.
00:22:36pamaurychrisjj: because the E200R manual is the same as the E200
00:22:51pamauryjust open the E200 manual, it's written in the title
00:22:57pamauryso it has a manual
00:23:06chrisjjSo?? Thats need only one line correcting. Not the column deleting.
00:23:18pamauryyour column was useless and confusing
00:23:36chrisjjI can't imaging how it confused you.
00:23:54chrisjjAs for useless, see: "Whilst every effort is made to try and ensure a manual is available for every supported target, these are not always available immediately when a port reaches "supported" status"
00:24:26pamaurykiwicam: now this is very confusing, it would mean the Vibe uses an ATJ core, the same kind that wodz is working on maybe... Wait a second
00:25:18pamaurychrisjj: all supported targets have a manual, so there is no need to say which don't, since there is none. Discussion closed
00:25:30chrisjjThen why no say so on the page?
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00:28:15pamauryit's probably a leftover, don't go in edit spree without asking, especially in major pages like these
00:29:42pamaurykiwicam: so the firmware in the sa4vbe08kf_97 archive uses a known format (I wrote a descrambler for it), but it doesn't descramble to what I expected, it uses a new format (yeah they scramble it several times). So my guess is that this is a new(er) ATJ core which I don't know and which we don't support at the moment.
00:30:10pamaurykiwicam: what would be awesome if you can is to disassemble the device and take some hi-res pictures
00:30:44pamaurywodz (logs): I have a very interesting firmware here, may be related to your ATJ work
00:31:34pamaurykiwicam: I'm confused though, because the Vibe 4GB seems to use a completely different chip (at least that's what Songbird's files say)
00:31:51pamaurymaybe there even are Vibe 8GB in two variants
00:33:18kiwicamI'd be more than happy to do that. I'll come back to you. If I can't do that, I'll buy you one and send it to you. That can be my further contribution to RB.
00:34:45kiwicamI think there are two variants. Maybe more.
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00:35:39pamauryok great, only the disassemble can solve the issue here
00:38:00chrisjj"edit spree", Come on... !
00:38:53chrisjjIt is a wiki. "Everyone is invited to join and help". If you don't like that, then petition for a change to the rules.
00:41:00pamauryIf I don't like that I can ban you plain and simple. Because you can edit doesn't mean you can do that without seeking approval before
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00:45:30chrisjjThere's no requirement so "seek approval before" editing the wiki. See .
00:45:48kiwicampamaury: Excellent. It's going to be easy to disassemble than I thought. I already have the front off, but now I need some jewellery screwdrivers from work. Probably tomorrow I can have something for you. 24 hours.
00:46:19lebelliumeverything doesn't have to be explicity written. When you join a project you don't know and you don't know people who are working on it, you should start discussing with them before doing what you think is right without approval
00:46:53saratogawe should have a rule that says the rules are whatever IRC says they are :)
00:47:39saratogachrisjj: if you're not directly working on something, its often not a good idea to try and document it
00:49:33chrisjjsaratoga: Wouldn't it be nice if the people directly working on something had the time for documentation too?
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00:57:11pamaurywodz: I have a firmware here which is scrambled using the same ATJ "3DFW" format
00:57:27pamaurybut what is inside is funny: it's an QSLite3 database containing all the files !
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01:11:13saratogadamn banning spammers is slow today
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01:31:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:53:44pamaurywodz (logs): I managed to extract the file from the descrambled database, it is very interesting. There is an ADFUS.bin file, many *.drv files and *.bin files
01:53:56pamauryI'm impatient to know which ATJ is this
01:54:29pamauryby the way, using Qt to open a SQLite3 file is very handy
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04:33:43kiwicamI'm back!
04:35:38kiwicampamaury: seems to have gone to bed. I couldn't open up the inards fully as there were two ribbons with no way to disconnect them without some damage.
04:37:45kiwicamIt took me ages to get an in focus image, but I think I've done enough:
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04:45:10[Saint]What the fuck?
04:45:12[Saint]" Note: Whereas normally the term "tag" means the metadata container of an audio file, in this topic, the term "tag" refers to one field thereof. "
04:45:31[Saint]ChrisJJ is really going on a spree painting the wiki with bullshit.
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04:47:42[Saint]"Rockbox comes with an extensive manual, which can be found *new<in the Rockbox Utility available> on the downloads page."
04:48:09[Saint]...that one doesn't even make any sense.
04:48:31[Saint]He edited a perfectly valid sentence, which was correct, and replaced it with...well, that.
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04:52:44saratogai guess maybe his english isn't so good
04:52:55[Saint]It seems fine to me.
04:53:39[Saint]This might be slightly controversial, but, maybe we could try and ascertain whether or not people know what they're talking about before letting them walk all over the wiki.
04:54:07[Saint]Having to go back and clean up and/or argue with enthusiastic people that think they're helping isn;t all too fun.
04:55:06saratogai guess just ask him not to edit the wiki, and maybe concentrate on editing things that can be reviewed on gerrit like the manual
04:55:30[Saint]How much scrollback do you have? I think pamaury tried that earlier.
04:55:45saratogaprobably better for new people to have some review anyway
04:56:01saratogayeah i saw that, i guess just make it more clear and if that fails disable his account
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04:57:25[Saint]That would be unfortunate, but I'm not sure what else to do. I hope it wouldn;t come to that. Fingers crossed.
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05:53:26chrisjjsanit: "Rockbox comes with an extensive manual, which can be found *new<in the Rockbox Utility available> on the downloads page." What's your problem what that, Saint?
05:53:52chrisjjsaint: "Note: Whereas normally the term "tag" means the metadata container of an audio file, in this topic, the term "tag" refers to one field thereof." Do you have difficulty understanding that, Saint?
05:54:11 Nick scorche` is now known as scorche (~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche)
05:54:47[Saint]Both of tham are untrue, primarily.
05:55:00[Saint]Please try to restrict your writings to things you know about.
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05:56:30chrisjjYou're incorrect. Both are true. Perhaps you're not familiar with standard meaning of the word "tag" in audio.
05:56:40[Saint]The first example implies that Rockbox Utility is the only place to get the manual, this is wrong.
05:56:51chrisjjIt does not imply that.
05:57:04[Saint]The second...well, I have NEVER, not once, heard "tag" refer to the *entire* body of metadata...ever.
05:57:13scorcheneither have i
05:57:14[Saint]And, yes, it does. It was fine beforehand.
05:57:40chrisjjSaint, try reading a audio metadata standards document, as have I.
05:58:52[Saint]Lets try and not be an asshold, and try to take some simple direction, shall we?
05:58:56[Saint]I'm trying to help.
05:59:34chrisjjTry here: " A tag is the whole tag described in this document. A frame is a block of information in the tag. The tag consists of a header, frames and optional padding. A field is a piece of information; one value, a string etc."
06:00:27chrisjjYou're failing to help. If you really have never heard tag used in its standard meaning, well....
06:00:35saratogai think that may be specific to that document
06:00:51saratogaregardless, frivolous edits like that are not helpful
06:01:28[Saint]I certainly want the RbUtil one changed, as that's just plain wrong.
06:01:40[Saint]I just didn;t want to go overtop of you and do it myself, but, I can.
06:02:15saratogaif this is unclear to you, perhaps it would be best if you limited yourself to editting things like the manual that can be reviewed on Gerrit
06:02:30saratogathis way people can more easily revise and provide feedback while you get up to speed with our project
06:02:32chrisjjIt is not a frivolous edit. It is helpful to readers who are not familiar with the misuse of the term. And it is educational to writers hereabouts who misuse the term.
06:02:50chrisjjIt is not unclear to me.
06:03:14[Saint]But when you're the only one using it that way, *you* become the "wrong" one.
06:03:39[Saint]You can't break conventions for no reason that have stood for over a decade.
06:04:12chrisjjSaratoga, perhaps you weren't around decades ago, when audio tags came into being. I was, and I designed audio digital equipment selling thousands. The tag of an audio file is like the tag on a suitcase. Each line within is a separate field. That's the way it is, ans has always been.
06:04:54chrisjjIf you think your usage is a convention, then please provide some authoritative evidence. Rockbox documentation needs not apply.
06:05:40saratogachrisjj: i don't know why you're arguing this, but:
06:06:01chrisjj"But when you're the only one using it that way, *you* become the "wrong" one." Please read the ID3 tags spec. This is the most read and most influential audio metadata spec in the consumer audio world.
06:07:00chrisjj . No reference to audio there.
06:07:53 Quit krabador (Quit: Sto andando via)
06:07:54chrisjj"I certainly want the RbUtil one changed, as that's just plain wrong." What is wrong about ""Rockbox comes with an extensive manual, which can be found in the Rockbox Utility available on the downloads page." ??
06:08:29[Saint]What about the way it was, which was absolutely fine?
06:08:45[Saint]There was absolutely no need for that.
06:09:41chrisjjDo make your mind up. A moment ago you were claiming the edited statement was untrue.
06:10:04[Saint]=The way it was *originally*.
06:10:08[Saint]Before you got to it.
06:10:43chrisjjYou claimed my "Rockbox comes with an extensive manual, which can be found in the Rockbox Utility available on the downloads page." is untrue. Please say how it is untrue.
06:11:09[Saint]The implication made there is that that is the only place it is found.
06:12:50chrisjjUntrue. But if you think it should say where esle the manual can be found, why not add it instead of complaining?
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06:38:50chrisjjThank you Hayden:;rev2=6
06:39:17chrisjjYou reverted my correction of a typo. I restored it.
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07:10:37evilwombatHello. Does anyone know how to make an H300 *not* go into USB storage mode upon USB connection, but to default to charging over USB instead?
07:11:00evilwombatI know it is possible to hold down the record button while connecting USB, but is there a way to make charging mode the default?
07:11:10evilwombator do I need to rebuild for this?
07:11:38saratoga_you'd have to recompile
07:11:47saratoga_right now it just checks if any button is pressed, and its hard coded
07:12:01evilwombatAh, I see. Do you know a filename / line number offhand?
07:15:26saratoga_probably this:;a=blob;f=firmware/usb.c;h=a7b19eb0655836b636c68e6d4fd6d73d656f1c87;hb=HEAD#l132
07:16:57evilwombatAh, thanks. A well-placed ! ought to do the trick
07:17:06evilwombatnow, toolchain tiume
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09:25:06evilwombatsaratoga, That did it. Thanks! Now I don't have to build a 2A car adapter for my H300
09:27:35bertriksaratoga: any plans to update our opus support to 1.1?
09:27:59bertrikor has it mostly been *encoder* updates since 1.0?
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09:47:10n1sbertrik: yeah i want to do it but will probably not have time before christmas
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10:13:50[Saint]Isn't there...hmmm.
10:14:25[Saint]Whoops, wrong channel.
10:17:32[Saint]evilwombat: largely irrelevant, if you've got what you wanted already - but I believe you can also just change the static bool for usb_charging_only to "true" further up in usb.c
10:24:13evilwombat[Saint], Thanks. I still wanted to use both modes - just wanted USB storage to be the non-default. I charge this thing far more often than I put new files on it
10:24:45evilwombatIdeally, there would be a config option for this... maybe I'll add one if I'm bored. The last time I wrote RB code was back when it was still using SVN :)
10:26:05[Saint]There was one, once upon a time.
10:26:57[Saint]I don't recall if it was committed and then removed in favor of the current implementation, or just never committed.
10:27:57evilwombatIs the "Media" USB port ever used on the H300 ?
10:28:14evilwombatah cool
10:29:12[Saint]there's also
10:29:20[Saint]but that's a bit yuck.
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10:29:59evilwombatAh yeah, a little.
10:30:35evilwombatOriginally I kind of expected "car mode" to force charge-only by default, and was surprised that this wasn't the case
10:30:54[Saint]and there's also ...
10:31:06*[Saint] wonders how many other implementations he can dig up.
10:31:40[Saint] :)
10:31:56[Saint]apparently a popular feature.
10:34:40[Saint]Hmmm. car mode forcing charge only is probably sane.
10:35:25[Saint]oh, no.
10:35:36evilwombatWhat else does car mode do? Bookmark current song and shut down upon USB power loss? Because that would be handy :)
10:36:24[Saint]I just figured car mode forcing charge only is highly counterintuitive if you're wanting to access storage via USB :)
10:36:34[Saint]There's a derp moment.
10:36:43evilwombatAaah, that's what it does? Fair.
10:36:50evilwombatMy car largely fails at parsing USB
10:37:02evilwombatwell... at reading external storage I guess
10:37:34evilwombatfilenames, let alone ID3 tags, take something like 3 seconds to display upon each track skip
10:37:45[Saint]What it does, or one of the things it does, is switches the device off when there's no power over USB (for instance, cutting ACC in a vehicle).
10:38:01evilwombatand apparently all directories are listed in a *flat* manner. There's no "working directory" in a hierarchical sense. It's rather surprisingly bad.
10:38:32evilwombatthat sounds handy
10:39:13[Saint]It is, combined with resume on startup.
10:39:48evilwombatIf only we could get cars to just pass through their keypads to the player... somehow
10:40:12evilwombatif the car enumerated as HID on the OTG port or something insane like that
10:40:25[Saint]That can be done in a limited fashion with some iPods using IAP.
10:40:32evilwombatbut it would be a mess
10:40:34evilwombatAh sweet
10:40:41evilwombatKind of like the old Alpine_CDC plugin?
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11:22:45evilwombatWell, that's it for me. Good night all.
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14:04:05pamaurylebellium: do you know the cowon S9 ?
14:04:18copperI owned one for a while
14:04:24copperrather sexy device
14:04:42lebelliumpamaury: sure, I have it :)
14:04:47pamauryI found this:
14:04:57copperoooh nice
14:05:14lebelliumI got it for free but 50€ is a good deal too :D
14:05:37lebelliumHowever the J3 is more interesting since it has a microSD slot
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14:13:57lebelliumpamaury: but I remind you, you said you stop working on new targets :D
14:14:34pamauryit is for my collection...or I lied !
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14:43:24n1sbertrik: our coder is currently based off of the opus git repo as of august 30 which was just after the 1.1 beta, not much that concerns us has been done since then, mostly just encoder stuff and cleanups but there are some decoder fixes that would be nice for us
14:46:27bertrikn1s: ok, so probably not much use then to resync again
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15:57:06chrisjjpamaury: Re,13462.msg221862.html#msg221862 , any reason for the format ? I can't see the need to erase the content.
16:08:47pamauryto check if the EU firmware works on the US device...
16:13:20pamaurylorenzo92 (logs): I found the issue with the SD bus on Sansa Express, they use the LRADC pulldown to power up some hardware ><
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16:34:03chrisjjBut how does format affect the firmware?
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16:38:52pamauryif you don't format you cannot run the OF
16:39:02pamauryOF uses a proprietary file system
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16:47:57chrisjjHere, the OF runs Recovery Mode fine without having to format, and that shows the LCD is working.
16:49:37pamauryno, recovery mode is handled by a completely part of the code
16:49:51pamauryit's not in the OF, it's part of the creative bootloader
16:50:06pamaurywhich never changes
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17:20:11chrisjjAh, so I guess you're saying the fact that Recovery Mode shows the LCD to be working is insufficient. That the rest of the OF might fail.
17:23:40chrisjjBut I don't see that format is needed. Without format, the OF shows two pages on the LCD fine.
17:25:20chrisjjBTW FWIW, I have tested each OF variant on a unit shipped with the other. All combinations work fine. The only difference between "e" and no "e" that I've seen reported is the reduced volume for EU safety regs..
17:25:39chrisjjAnd that's the only difference I've found, too.
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18:05:39pamaurychrisjj: I didn't know you tested both variants on your device, so I guess it proves the problem doesn't come from the hardware
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20:42:28saratogabertrik: there are some improvements, but i don't know how big
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20:42:39saratogai was going to finally look into the fft code if i can get the time
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21:56:43OhGodHelpI need some help with my Sansa Clip+, can anyone help?
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22:02:51saratogajust ask a question, if someone knows the answer, they'll answer
22:03:07Guest66537OhGodHelp: do you have one?
22:03:15*Guest66537 stabs nickserv
22:03:22 Nick Guest66537 is now known as shadows (
22:03:23OhGodHelpI do have one.
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22:03:59OhGodHelpWell, my Sansa Clip has the latest firmware, and all off a sudden it displayed something akin to "Panic Mount:0"
22:04:00wodzif this is atj2127 I don't even want to think about its memory model
22:04:18shadowsOhGodHelp: ah, yeah
22:04:31shadowsOhGodHelp: latest as in 3.13 stable release?
22:04:33OhGodHelpAnd now it won't even turn on, and when it did, the Sansa stock logo showed up.
22:04:39OhGodHelpI believe so.
22:05:19OhGodHelpSo, I want to get it back into working order. How would I do this?
22:05:42shadowshmm read a bunch about problems with bricking Sansas (I have older Sansa Fuze v1 unaffected) with or without rockbox
22:06:03OhGodHelpSuddenly brick sansas, you mean?
22:06:15shadows"white screen of death" it happens to some
22:06:22OhGodHelpAh, I see.
22:06:37shadowsfirst try to see, does it show up as storage device when connected to computer?
22:06:45saratogawodz: the datasheet does make it sound like more of a microcontroller or DSP with all the different DRAM blocks
22:07:08OhGodHelpWell, no, it doesn't mount right now.
22:07:17OhGodHelpIt's off and I can't seem to even turn it on.
22:07:58wodzsaratoga: Yes. It is MIPS 4k core with mips16e extension but this mem banking is nightmare
22:08:12saratogawodz: does it have enough RAM to even run rockbox?
22:08:13shadowsOhGodHelp: something between holding power switch for 60 seconds, or power switch and "home" button for 60 seconds, or wait for battery to run out (4+ days)
22:08:21wodzsaratoga: I don't think so
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22:08:31saratogaah well then thats easy enough :)
22:08:49shadowsOhGodHelp: it's not limited to Rockbox though so you may find better answer on SanDisk support forum?
22:09:01OhGodHelp...And now it suddenly turned on no problem.
22:09:09OhGodHelpBack into Rockbox firmware.
22:09:57OhGodHelpI don't know what happened.
22:10:03OhGodHelpBut I hope it doesn't repeat itself.
22:10:10shadowswish I had a better answer for you
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22:10:52wodzsaratoga: It uses harvard memory model also which would be really hard for rockbox
22:10:57OhGodHelpIt's fine.
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22:11:36saratogai wonder why people keep making weird devices like this given how trivial the hardware requirements are
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22:17:45wodzsaratoga: this looks like transition between earlier z80 + dsp SoCs to newer MIPS based 'normal' approach
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22:47:17lorenzo92pamaury (logs): great ;) indeed there was a missing power up, who knows for what (either the multiplexer or the inand)
22:47:45pamaurywodz: ping
22:48:21wodzpamaury: pong
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22:48:32pamaurydid you see my messages about possible atj core ?
22:48:54wodzdid you see my response? :-)
22:49:16pamauryyeah but I didn't understand it completely
22:49:18pamauryI can send you the archive if you want, so you can have a look, might be interesting
22:50:02wodzpamaury: Long story short: 2127 doesn't look like possible target for rockbox
22:50:27pamauryare you sure it's 2127 ?
22:50:50wodzlooking at photos I am pretty sure
22:51:05pamauryah he uploaded the photos ?
22:53:13pamauryso it's horrible to program
22:54:04wodzand the mem is too limited - 88kB of program memory and something like this for data
22:55:20saratogaprobably worth double checking that theres no additional DRAM on that board though
22:55:38saratogabut yeah, if its some weird DSP arch, its likely not worth the trouble
22:56:23wodzit is mips 4k so the arch is pretty sane
22:56:35wodzits just the mem model arcane
23:04:36pamauryapparently many philips are stmp3770 based
23:04:43pamaury512KB of memory
23:05:03pamaurythey seem to like SoC with little memory so that's it's hard to program and very slow ^^
23:05:38 Quit kevku (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:06:20[Saint]Probably justifies tha man hours spent building awful firmware.
23:06:26[Saint]*the, even
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23:08:22wodzActions OF has HUGE code duplication. Each submodule is selfcontained elf (much like our plugins with exception that each submodule is loaded at different, static address)
23:19:17 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving)
23:23:34pamaurythat's why it's so slow I guess, it must be switching all the time
23:23:56pamauryI know freescale on the stmp3770 does VM + swapping and that's horribly slow
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